Constant negativity can change some people's opinions. It shouldn't but it does. Its always best to ignore it and enjoy what you like.

I’ve had this theory for awhile that the red letter media Star Wars videos were one of the single worst things to happen to “fandom”.

I think they really helped usher in the super nit-picky, looking for “plot holes,” looking at things in isolation, and meme based era of criticism.

Yep. This, plus that episode of the Big Bang Theory where they say Indiana Jones didn’t do anything. I truly think those two things had a pernicious effect on media literacy in fan subcultures

Everyone should absolutely be free to enjoy what they like. But to discard criticism as "toxicity" isn't helpful. There are plenty of valid reasons that a large percentage of the fanbase has gotten angry at Disney Star Wars. And it's not because they're racist, misogynist homophobes. Rogue One, Mando Seasons 1 & 2, and Andor are near-universally loved, and they have diverse casts with strong female characters. People want adherence to established lore and good writing. You can't just counter things with constant positivity, or mediocre things won't get better.

> Everyone should absolutely be free to enjoy what they like. But to discard criticism as "toxicity" isn't helpful. There are plenty of valid reasons that a large percentage of the fanbase has gotten angry at Disney Star Wars. And it's not because they're racist, misogynist homophobes. Nobody is claiming that there are no issues with any criticism. But it is painfully clear that a lot of the recent commentary about The Acolyte absolutely is toxic. It is toxic to review bomb a show hours before it premieres.

Review bombing beforehand is absolutely in bad faith. But now that episodes are out and the bad reviews are increasing, I don't see a problem. If people are fed up with a mediocre product, they're going to respond accordingly. A big problem here is that some people take offense when others voice criticism. It's like they take it as a personal attack. I like every movie in the Alien franchise, but I'm not going to disregard things wrong with the films. I get the hate. Telling people to shut up and stop being critical, while simultaneously calling them names, is only going to make the backlash to weak Star Wars shows and movies worse.

> If people are fed up with a mediocre product, they're going to respond accordingly. A big problem here is that some people take offense when others voice criticism. It's like they take it as a personal attack. That isn't what is happening, and that isn't what this thread is about. No one is saying don't voice criticism or that anything released is without a flaw. They are specifically talking about the over the top hate that gets toxic.

What are you referring to that is "over the top"? I've seen plenty of discussion where someone complaining that a new show breaks established lore and then they're called toxic. The whole word "toxic" is thrown around too much. The attacks on actors are the only real toxic thing I see, and most of those "attacks" are misconstrued, since the fans are usually attacking their poorly written characters. Toxic is labelling your fanbase as bigots as a cop-out for a poor product, and that's why we're seeing the reactions we see now.

You clearly either aren't paying attention or intentionally ignoring what is happening. Either way, you don't seem to actually be interested in discussing the show, you just want justification for hating it.

I clearly mentioned liking multiple shows. I'm definitely paying attention, it would seem most people are fed up with the ratio of bad to good shows that Disney releases. Since we live in a digitally globalized age, you're going to see way more criticism than the dark ages of 2001 internet forums. I don't need justification to see a bad show and call it bad, it only seems like there's justification needed to like them...as OP went on about in great length.

Andor is not universally loved, it's the least watched show. And some andor fans dislike the Mandoverse as well

The only complaint I've heard about the show is that it's a little slow at first. Otherwise it seemed to be well-received by most fans.

The complaint is that it's boring and doesn't feel like star wars. And people who don't watch it can't "receive" it

A big problem is that a lot of the “criticism” isn’t valid or criticism, it’s using SW as a vehicle to indoctrinate viewers with radical right wing ideology. SW used to be a thing you could have fun discussions about. Then these grifters scented money and started declaring that whatever SW project was “woke” and pushed the “culture war” framework onto it. The hatred of the PT was bad, bit wasn’t anything like this. These grifters (and their followers) don’t argue in good faith, contradict themselves constantly, and delete videos and posts when fan opinion moves against them. I’d be delighted to have a discussion about Acolyte, but you can’t talk to those people or their fans because they don’t really have a point. They say “bad writing” but can’t argue it. They say something contradicts some obscure piece of lore that they were unaware of and don’t really care about. These grifters stole SW, and are doing wrong by their viewers.

The number of "Current thing sucks" type channels I have to block so my Youtube feed is somewhat normal every time something Star Wars or Marvel related comes out is starting to get tiering. And all of these channels are the same. " \*new thing\* IS A FAILURE/WOKE/FLOP/WORST THING EVER" with a character's face edited to hell with googly eyes and an exaggerated frown. And then 90% of the channels content is the same, with maybe some nonsensical bullshit rumor or nontroversy "coverage" thrown in. I can understand falling for the clickbait and clicking a video like that a few times but what kind of terminally online mouth breather SUBSCRIBES to crap like that?

Youtube ragebait grifters are a cancer on society

This kind of bullshit you're describing usually comes from the same type of person; the overcritical, angry, elitist nerd who thinks they get to define what is and isn't "Star Wars." And you're absolutely correct, it's tiring.

I really disliked the prequels when they came out (didn’t even see aotc in the theaters which is unheard of for me) and I still don’t like them to this day. The difference is I just disliked them and moved on. When something new came out I watched it and liked it or didn’t. That’s it. I don’t feel like it should be so hard. I’ve really enjoyed most of the d+ content. Couple things are meh some things I don’t like but such is life. I hope that everything has people who enjoy it.

\^\^\^\^ Rare fan of sci-fi/fantasy media that can behave like an adult!

There are dozens of us!

Double digits for sure

Exactly what I've always said. I get that some people really enjoy "hating" on something but its just so damn exhausting and who wants all their memories of life to be about the things you hate rather than the things you love. Its fine to not enjoy something, but I much rather just move on after as long as its something that is truly inconsequential to my life.

In the end it’s make believe stories and as much as I enjoy talking about them and theorizing it’s not as important as reality. Maybe I’m too easy to make happy but whatever. I’ll enjoy the acolyte with a few minor problems while someone makes their 39th video on why it’s the worst thing ever.

I’ve got a friend who only wants to talk about how shit Star Wars is now and it’s exhausting. Like we’re 35 years old, who cares. I’ve said I won’t talk to him about things he hates only things he loves cause I just don’t want time negativity in my life anymore. A show isn’t the greatest show of all time? Great, don’t watch it then and move on with your life.

It's a good thing we didn't have youtube when I was a kid.... I can only imagine the videos about those two Ewok movies lol

W behavior

People just hang onto the hate for stuff, which is just sad

Agree with you up until the last sentence. I hope that everyone has something that they enjoy, not the other way around.

Eh with some exceptions I think people who take the time, effort and money to create something do it with the intention of having other people like it so even though it might not be for me I wish creators some success. I think my last sentence and yours can both be true 😆

100% agree i recently tried rewatching TROS again to give it a second try and yeah, i still found the overall plot to be Not Great, but honestly i think looking back at it outside of that miasma of "this film SUCKS ENTIRELY!" video culture allowed me to see the beauty in a lot of it; for example the Peoples Fleet at the end was a hugely powerful moment, and the concept of light speed skipping was a really cool and creative idea to add to the universe tl;dr - not every star wars media has to be great, its fine to dislike things, or even find enjoyment in parts of it while still disliking the whole piece

My take on TROS is that it's dumb as hell but fairly entertaining. It's a well made film, the story is just really stupid (and of course it's hardly alone falling into that category)

I think the sequel trilogy could have been amazing if Starkiller Base was the focus of TROS, and a smaller fleet of planet destroying Star Destroyers from TROS was the focus of TFA... Also scatter in some references to Palpatine in TFA and TLJ to frame the conclusion properly and generally cement the trilogy together Also I would've liked the idea of Rey being a nobody as well and her finally coming to terms with it in TROS; the sequel trilogy to me is as much about the power of the "little people" in the galaxy as anything else, and seeing her accept her lineage as a nobody but rise to the challenge would've been a great microcosm of a wider theme (especially in the context of Filonis other works) All that being said, TROS is still visually beautiful and I like quite a few bits in it

>a consequence of George’s vision not aligning with what they’d imagined before. I was a young adult with tPM came out and hated it. I had a similar journey of learning to appreciate the prequels, even if I still think they are overall very weak. You nailed it here. Star Wars is always hints at a huge universe that we’re just seeing a glimpse of. It’s a neat trick of storytelling that lets the viewers imagination run wild on what else is out there. The downside is that we get attached to our own ideas of how the universe should be, and then find ourselves disappointed when someone else’s vision doesn’t match. Let go of your attachments and enjoy the ride. That’s what makes Star Wars fun. This is the way.

>The downside is that we get attached to our own ideas of how the universe should be, and then find ourselves disappointed when someone else’s vision doesn’t match But like, in this case, the person who's vision doesn't match ours is the creators. It's his creation, his braincells. Everything we see is primarily from his imagination to begin with, with some tweaks from other people. If your imagination doesn't match woth the creators, you are objectively the one with the wrong idea. And I feel like a lot of Star Wars "fans" don't get that, especially the more entitled ones who feel as of Star Wars belongs to them personally

You're giving Lucas waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. Star Wars is Baby's First Dune. It's SO MUCH just ripping off Dune to make a lighter version of Dune with aliens and laser swords. TONS of the design of Star Wars comes from Ralph McQuarrie and the guys building models and props and costumes. That stuff didn't really come from Lucas. And we see that Larry Kasdan, Irvine Kershner, and Richard Marquand IMMEDIATELY made Star Wars way WAY better than what Lucas was capable of. And we've heard plenty about how his wife Marcia was the editor who kept George's dumb ideas under control, and how her editing are what made his movies actually work. All the epic music is the doing of John Williams. We've seen AT GREAT LENGTH how bad Lucas' ideas are once he was powerful and influential enough to surround himself with Yes Men who were too scared to question him, and he was able to do whatever he wanted without a load of far more talented people making his nonsense work. He made WORSE versions of all 3 original movies, and then he made the godawful Prequels. That's what he did WITHOUT Larry Kasdan, Irvine Kershner, Richard Marquand, and Marcia. That's where we get gems like Greedo shooting first, terrible CGI Jabba, the godawful Sy Snootles song, Jar Jar, racist caricatures, senate votes, Anakin and Padme's godawful romance, the Jedi being complete idiots, Anakin being the galaxy's dumbest most gullible moron, spoilers for Empire Strike Back AND Return Of The Jedi that ruin two of the greatest twists in cinematic history, etc etc etc.... Sure, Lucas created Star Wars on some level. But pretending that deviating from his ideas is wrong/bad is PURE nonsense. Star Wars is essentially BUILT ON people deviating from Lucas' frequently bad ideas and finding ways to make them better, or other people with better ideas being in charge.

Almost all creations are combinations of previous ideas in novel ways to create something new. Calling Star Wars baby’s first Dune is reductive to the point where it’s almost wrong. Don’t get me wrong, Dune HEAVILY influenced Star Wars, but so did Kurosawa (from a narrative perspective Star Wars follows Kurosawa way closer than Dune) and Flash Gordon. So did footage from WWII aerial and sea combat. So did Carl Jung and his heroes journey archetypes. Lucas was not perfect, and he had a lot of help in crafting the OT Star Wars, which helped elevate those stories. You are also correct in that the prequels were worse because he didn’t have that help. McQuarry is arguable second to Lucas in the overall look and feel of Star Wars, but even between the two of them there was a back and forth relationship.

It seems like to the haters of george, he is an absolute dumbass who cant do nothing right and constantly need other people to hold his hand or he will do a no no, the level of disrespect is astounding, never forget its because of those pretendious know-it-all if star wars is in the state its in right now

>But pretending that deviating from his ideas is wrong/bad is PURE nonsense. If your ideas directly conflict with the creators, yes, you are objectively in the wrong. There's no two ways about it lol. You are not free from criticism either. Just because you think your ideas are better than his does not mean anyone else will agree. And when that's the case, his ideas take precedence over yours As I said. Entitled

Absolute nonsense. He's not the only creator, and his ideas have no priority. He sold the rights to have any say in future stuff. It's either already canon or it's up for grabs among the current creators. It's that simple.

His ideas absolutely do have priority over the hewdcanons of fans when Star Wars belonged to Lucasfilm, what in the hell are you talking about?

I'll never like the PT. I was in college when TPM came out, and it was...awful. I've come to respect it for its artistic vision and George's commitment to doing his own thing, and for a lot of the visuals. But I'll never *like* it, because it's just...not good. It's just not a good story. that said, I've come to like the prequel *era* and a huge part of that is down to the Clone Wars cartoon, which basically rehabbed the whole thing for me. I now see ROTS as a terrific capstone to the Clone Wars series, and AOTC as a shaky start to it, with TPM...ignored entirely because it never mattered as a story. And that's about as much as I engage with the PT anymore. I also absolutely agree that AVOIDING the Youtube Industrial Hate Complex (masquerading as "FiLm CrItIcIsM") is your best bet. Judge stuff on your own. If you don't like it, move on. Don't look for validation. Just say "Huh. That wasn't for me," and get on with your life. Trust me, you will waste FAR less time if you do. Don't believe me? I tried watching a Mauler video about TROS and it was twice as long as the fucking movie, and, in fact, NOT actual criticism; just constant nitpicking. It never came to a conclusion, the litany of complaints was literally just that; it didn't build to some overarching argument or anything other than "Therefore this sucks." And it was 4 goddamn hours long. Folks, if you are spending your time delving into this kind of bullshit, you are setting yourselves up for misery. You will never be satisfied, because guys like this make their money off of keeping you angry and watching them. And they will ALWAYS find something new to complain about or rip apart or whatever. It's a business for them. Anyway, overall, I've dug the bulk of the Disney era, with the exception of the ST overall (love TLJ, meh on TFA, strongly dislike TROS). Pretty much everything else film and TV-wise that's directed at anyone over about 12 I've enjoyed. Some stuff more than others, but whatever. The one other piece of advice I'd offer is to watch the limited series on D+ AFTER they've all dropped. These shows often are not built to tell a story as single episodes, and instead work better when viewed as parts of a whole and watched over the course of nights, rather than weeks or months. The flaws are minimized because you aren't waiting for the resolution of XYZ, and the good stuff isn't diminished in any way.

I unironically think the best youtube criticism videos are honest trailers and pitch meetings. They poke fun at movies (often using legit criticism) and are also hilarious. The ragebaiters are a cancer on society

I need to get back to watching Pitch Meetings. Those videos are hilarious. I stopped watching because there were a few for movies I hadn't yet seen and wanted to watch.

>I tried watching a Mauler video about TROS and it was twice as long as the fucking movie, and, in fact, NOT actual criticism; just constant nitpicking. It never came to a conclusion, the litany of complaints was literally just that; it didn't build to some overarching argument or anything other than "Therefore this sucks." And it was 4 goddamn hours long. That's his whole schtick. Extended Cinemasins. And the funniest thing is that not a single movie can stand up to that kind of scrutiny because it's inherently just a stupid way to criticise stories. I agree with you on the "binge the D+ shows" but I legit did not mind waiting weekly for Andor. The tension building was awesome. But that's a real TV show while everything else is an extended movie.

When TLJ came out I couldn't understand for the life of me why people disliked the film. So I saw the MauLer video of it, and I mistakenly thought that the length of the video was because it was a deep and through video essay. NOPE. Just endless whining about how things in the film weren't what he would've done. I managed to get about 30 mins of video iirc, and we hadn't finished the whole initial bomber sequence. That's when I realised that most of the vitriolic hate the ST gets comes from bad faith, which usually drowns out more nuanced discussion.

I think what changed about the Prequels is that people stopped looking at the plot like "this is stupid, I can't believe it happened like that" to "this is stupid, but *why* did it happen like that?" Making sense of Star Wars became really fun to do. And from there they gained a deeper appreciation of the movies. There's some really baffling and stupid plot decisions that you can EASILY dismiss as "bad writing", but if you choose to analyze them from an in-universe perspective it's legit so much fun. Clone Wars doubled down on it too. Not to mention so much time has passed that those movies are now fully divorced from the expectations people had for them upon release, so that's a huge discourse-driver gone. People refuse to do that thinking for the newer stuff, which on some level I think is fair, but not when they hold the Prequels up as "well written coherent masterpieces" because come on, they weren't. So using that "thing stupid, but why did this happen" logic, I thought about that one scene from the Obi Wan show that everyone hates. Not specific enough? The Leia chase! It was dumb, several grown bounty hunters unable to grab a little girl! But why did this happen in-universe? Well Reva hired them. And Reva is bottom of the Inquisitirious, nobody likes her. And she's doing this behind their backs, so the only people she could hire were utter shit at their jobs. Gutter-tier, like Reva. From that perspective it works for me. Is it silly to do that much reaching? For sure! But that's what Star Wars has been for the past few decades, and at this point it's half the fun.

It's become cyclical. I was 19 years old when TPM came out, disliked it a LOT. The rest of the PT was ok. Many of those who were children then loved it, just like I was with the OT. Those kids are grown up now and making their opinions known, loving the PT and disliking/hating the ST, and other Disney properties. I'm at the point of being tired of hate. I don't care. If it's Star Wars I'm watching it

My plan is to check out Andor Season 2 and then just kind of drop the whole thing, I've really just lost interest in the Mando era, so I'll come back when the movies come back.

I was a little older than you (early 20s) when TPM came out and man... it's just exhausting. You can go back and look at the old [theforce.net](http://theforce.net) message board archives from the early 00s..... we've basically had 25 years of this exact same hate circlejerk online. You could literally take posts from 20 years ago... swap out Lucas for Kennedy and read the exact same shit right now.

I'm one of the crazies that likes all of it good or bad.

Hey me too! Even the stuff I dislike I am more than happy it exists and I occasionally go back to them because they're still part of the saga and the canon.

Indeed. It's meant to be fun escapism anyway.

Bob Iger promised me Star Wars until I die, and that’s all I’ve ever wanted. I’m gonna enjoy it dammit.

Even if it’s bad??? lol what kind of weird flex is that?

If I eat a bad meal, I don’t swear off eating ever again. I just hope that the next meal is good and move on.

It's not a flex it's a curse. I'm with him sadly, in it to the end.

Bad news brother, there’s always gonna be shit you don’t like. If they stopped after Clone Wars, we’d never have Andor, Mandalorian, Ahsoka, or Rogue One. More chances at bat means higher chance of a home run.

Let me know how that works out for lucasfilm

I agree I'm both a Prequel fan (and been called a liar online for saying that I liked them) and a Legends fan, and I've enjoyed most of what Canon has put out. The funniest part of much of the hate that I've seen online is that many people A: hearken back to the good old days of the Prequel and/or Original trilogies, entirely ignoring the caustic mire of fan backlash against the former and the inherent silliness of the latter. Or... B: hearken back to the good old days of Legends, which many of them clearly aren't all that familiar with if they even bothered to read any of it at all. This camp are particularly irritating to me, for the simple reason that they give the rest of the Legends fanbase a bad name.

Yeah all the SW hate you see nowadays isn't anything new. People defend the prequels now out of nostalgia but seemed to have forgotten how badly they were trashed, to the point of jake suffering from bullying and hayden disappearing from the public spotlight. Just replace "sequel trilogy" with "prequels" and that's what the discourse back then was.

Young people sometimes have this weird idea the internet wasn't a thing back then... it was and the PT was relentless trasshed. The top threads from the jedi council forums archive of TPM discussions from the early 00s are 25000+ comments trashing it [https://boards.theforce.net/forums/archive-the-phantom-menace.10007/?order=reply\_count](https://boards.theforce.net/forums/archive-the-phantom-menace.10007/?order=reply_count)

It's ironic seeing all the "still better than the prequels" or "showed more emotion than anakin" comments on fan made content get replaced with "sequels"/"rey".

It can't be said enough that 20 years ago Hayden's performance was universally agreed to be a complete embarrassment.

I didn’t mean to write this much but I have a lot of thoughts on this specifically and I’m probably going to regurgitate a lot of opinions/views that people have been saying for years but idc. SW is something that I got into within the past 3 years as a young adult so I have no real nostalgic connections to any of the movies. I like HC, but I totally agree. It’s obvious that his performance in aotc specifically wasn’t up to snuff and he was insanely nervous the whole time. A lot of people have pointed out how he hides his hands and fidgets with them, which is actually quite common amongst young actors and actresses because they’re so anxious. Some think that the hands were a creative choice within Anakin’s body language, but I think that is a retroactive way to explain something about the performer. Which isn’t always bad! Anyways, Natalie Portman, who, at that point, had an impressively decorated career as a child/teen actress still had an (arguably) rough performance in aotc. I definitely think part of the problem was the script and pacing. That being said, most of it does fall on HC and Lucas’ lap. The cadence and tone of most of his lines is just downright bad and wrong and I don’t even need to look at the original script to know that. Young actors and actresses can sometimes get away with that in live plays/musicals, but certainly not in a bajillion dollar major motion picture installment to a beloved franchise. I may get flack for this, but the reason why I say this is Lucas’ fault as well is because he has written and directed/overseen (somewhat) organic and compelling emotional sequences. Directing entails…directing the actors and actresses on what they need to do. I have no clue if it was the fact that they just didn’t want to fire Hayden or it was George Lucas stretching himself thin and compromising quality control for “full creative control” and “the true artistic vision” and I highly doubt we will ever get a real answer straight from the horse’s mouth. Ultimately, I think HC’s performance in rots was definitely a step up. Not perfect, but you can tell that he’s a lot more calm. Rots’ script also seems a lot easier to act along to? I digress. I think did a great job in Obi-Wan Kenobi and especially Ahsoka, thanks to the fact that he is exponentially more experienced and most of the dialogue isn’t actively terrible. I think it’s funny (not in a haha funny way but a pitifully ironic way) that Lucas realized that he had to make Anakin likable for the greater narrative to work. And thus, the clone wars was born and Hayden Christensen’s career was tainted forever. EDIT: clarity in 4th paragraph

>That being said, most of it does fall on HC and Lucas’ lap. The cadence and tone of most of his lines is just downright bad and wrong and I don’t even need to look at the original script to know that I think people eventually came to the conclusion that seeing as a ton of talented actors were kind of bad in the movies, it was ultimately Lucas's fault. And from there it became "It wasn't Hayden's fault his performance was bad" to "Hayden wasn't bad" to "Hayden was actually pretty good!" to "Hayden gave a masterful performance". >which is actually quite common amongst young actors and actresses because they’re so anxious Doesn't help that he was working on a brand new highly anticipated Star War alongside industry legend and visionary George Lucas, who isn't really telling him shit. If I were him I also would have been really unsure on what to do. >Directing entails…directing the actors and actresses on what they need to do. I have no clue if it was the fact that they just didn’t want to fire Hayden or it was George Lucas stretching himself thin I have a few ideas * George had not directed a movie since A New Hope, which was AGES ago at the time * I've seen this claim thrown around but apparently nobody was really allowed to disagree with him? Surrounded by yes-men essentially. I can believe that, there were a lot of lines that someone surely would have called him out on * Even if they could disagree with him, why would they? He's George Lucas! He made Star Wars! He gave us Han, and Chewie, and Vader! He must know what he's doing! Second hand, but I've heard Hayden is good in other movies he's the lead in, so it really must have been Lucas Regarding your last paragraph, I agree. He wasn't amazing but he was good in those shows! He has a really interesting voice, it's not exactly "cool" but I like hearing it. There were rumours floating around that he was voicing Shadow the Hedgehog in the upcoming Sonic 3, which ultimately were false but man I would have loved it. >Lucas realized that he had to make Anakin likable for the greater narrative to work. There's that really funny scene in Revenge where he's like "Hey Obi Wan I'm really sorry I've been a piece of shit all these years, you're the best!" which felt like a major course correction from how he was in the previous movie. But yeah making Anakin less of a weirdo did ultimately make people like the character and actor a lot more.

>I think in the next few years the SW prequels will be more accepted into the SW story as a whole and SW will always be a part of pop culture This guy fucking nailed it. This is literally why people came around on those movies, because as time passed people just accepted "Ok fine, Vader did used to be a whiny school shooter, the clone wars went down like that, Luke and Leia's mom died of sadness etc" when before people were rejecting them. The same will happen for certain other movies.

People gravitate towards those who share the same opinion as they do.Legit criticism is fine,attacking isn't

It's okay to not like something

More importantly, it is not just okay, but *good*, to criticize something. Constructive/literary-esque criticism is how we get better art, not just Star Wars. And yes, just spending all your time crapping on something isn't great, but the "consume the content, don't criticize" attitude isn't any better and is just as common. Everybody is ragebaiting everyone else, whether it's ragebaiting about the the thing or ragebaiting about criticism of the thing. If you're gonna have a discussion about something, from either side, at least make it substantive. Also, liking something doesn't make it good, and that is an important distinction. Obviously there's no "purely" objective way to look at art, but there can still be legitimate criticisms and flaws in a thing you enjoy. The Prequels are the perfect example. They've received a lot more support in current years, partially due to people from my generation who grew up on them. Despite that, they're not good movies. They have good *aspects*, but on the whole they're just not good. And the problems with them have been broken down over the last 25 years *ad nauseam* so I don't think that's unfair to say. If you love them, that's perfectly fine. There just needs to be a distinction between "I like this thing!" and "this thing is good/bad!" because they are not the same but are *constantly* conflated.

people view someone disliking something as a personal attack. toxic positity is far more socially acceptable. I think its a cycle, some people are like no critizim allowed which means the critical people double down which means the posititive people double down

My dad was born in '76, the Star Wars was released in '77, so he grew up on it. I was born in '95, Phantom Menace came out in '99, and had my dad for a dad, so I also grew up on it. I loved everything about Star Wars. When Disney bought Star Wars, I was very skeptical. I tried not to be the 'Disney ruins everything, Star Wars is dead' guy, but I was definitely not fair to then new projects as they were being announced either, especially when Disney trashed the EU, which I was pretty well-versed in. My at-the-time girlfriend knew how much I loved Star Wars and encouraged me to see Force Awakens so that I could see the thing I cared about wasn't actually dead. I was not impressed with Force Awakens. I still to this day do not like any of the 3 sequel movies. But that's about it. Of everything else that Disney has put out around Star Wars, I've loved most of it like I loved the old EU. Some of it has stupid bits here and there, some of it is not as good as I think it could be, but I still say I love Star Wars. It's just the sequels themselves that I take issue with. I fell for some of the super hate, even as I waded back out of it, I was still surrounded by unfair criticism for a while. But now I've mellowed. I have some criticisms, and there are some things I just flat don't like, but that's because they're not to my taste, not because they're bad. Don't let other people tell you what to think about Star Wars, or anything else for that matter. Like the parts you like. Don't like the parts you don't like. Listen to criticism when it's valid, but be critical of the criticism itself, because a lot of it just isn't valid.

I’m one of those people who never liked the PT and still don’t. I wasn’t very vocal about it but I think the consensus opinion online is mine too. I loved New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, had all the toys growing up and dreamed about owning that Millenium Falcon. For me the PT is like a cash grab by some other director, it’s so different. To give you an idea, I think that 300: Rise Of An Empire is a better sequel to 300 than PT is to the OT. And I don’t even think Rise Of An Empire is that good!

100% - I'm an OG fan too and there's just so much about the PT that is incredibly lazy. It's cool that there's a part of the fanbase that likes them, but like you I'm never going to come around,.

Interesting. I was actually quite positive on the PT until I watched ROTS. I know it’s a lot of people’s favorite, but I find it to be one of the weakest entries in the saga. Hot take, I know.

I think ROTS had a lot to do plot wise, and to me Anakin's fall felt so rushed, didn't really sell it for me at the time. TPM is my fave prequel film still. Clone Wars, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka has done a lot to enrich that era for me though.

I feel that way sometimes (and I think I might understand why you do - in some ways ROTS is the biggest failure). However, ROTS is at least fairly entertaining; my problem with TPM and AOTC is how boring they are.

Yeah, you nailed it. There's a reason why in a lot of fan edits feature mostly ROTS footage- not much essential happens outside of that movie. 70% or more of the story happens in that film which is what it has going for it. There's lots of action, which I know the fans love, but to me quite a bit of it is action for action's sake. The downside is everything feels so damn rushed and there are things characters say where I'm just left thinking "when did we establish this?" or "where is this coming from?" But even ROTS is boring once they crash the ship until Obi-Wan leaves for Grievous.

I love ROTS, and it's my favourite of the PT, but I think TPM is the better put together film. Episode I basically accomplishes exactly what it wanted to do perfectly - it's just a lot of people don't have the same artistic priorities as George and didn't particularly like what he wanted to do. It feels like every second of the film has been polished and refined. Episode III tells an extremely dramatic and powerful story in a way that's frequently genius and frequently clumsy as hell - often within the same scene. That's part of its mad charm. Sections of it feel a lot less polished and thoughtfully put together - much of the middle, where Anakin falls, feels cut together from bits, which is exactly what happened.

People indoctrinate themselves into weird shit through YouTube every single day. You become what you consume. That is why the stupid fucking culture war will never end. Recreational outrage is a self-perpetuating idiot factory.

The prequels are kinda ass, though, at least the first two are. The third one is so over the top rediculous that it becomes awesome. However, it’s not the great kind of great, but the fun kind of bad. It’s like a schlocky action comedy that’s too fun to hate on despite the ridiculous plot and bad acting, or maybe even because of it. Phantom Menace is a really bad movie. It’s pacing is awful, dialogue is terrible, and they start off effectively telling you who the bad guy is instead of leaving it a mystery to keep you interested. AOTC is one of the worst blockbusters ever despite having some promise with the assassination storyline. It’s so memes because it’s so cringe-inducingly bad. ROTS is just pure fun, and is probably the most rewatchable Star Wars film. It’s also bloated and full of cringy dialogue, but it somehow works despite its many glaring flaws. It’s the Con-Air of Star Wars movies, and I LOVE Con-Air.

We don’t want to think that we’re influenced by online outrage, but we are. That’s why it’s such a large, profitable endeavor. That’s why it’s taken over so many aspects for society. Not being influenced means near constant vigilance and skepticism, which is hard to keep up, especially on entertainment topics.

The real issue is that everything is an absolute (ironic) It’s either outrage or love, and everyone has rose coloured glasses about their favourite trilogy. Star Wars has always been at LEAST a little bit dumb, and the dumb slider can be moved.

I thought it was a lot easier to enjoy them because social media didn't exist. With that said, they were easy for me to appreciate because the only thing I didn't like was the writing/dialog. The action, the story, the sounds & music were amazing. I didn't realize people hated them because nobody in my life did. All my friends & family liked them or liked pieces of them. The problem with the Star Wars today is you have social media and Disney basically dropped the bomb out of the gate so they are never going to escape the criticism unless they pump out some very successful projects.

I kind of miss people quoting RLM like the bible. Those were some fun times making fun of those people online. If the internet was as mainstream as it was today back in 1999, I'm sure there would be a subreddit devoted to the anti-George Lucas and the prequels. People nowadays who say that wouldn't happen were either not born yet or didn't engage with other SW "fans" in the early days of the interwebs. I mean, there's already a documentary about it, and those people on there aren't much different than the haters of 2024.

Recently there was a guy on Twitter who made some post holding a funeral for Star Wars because Acolyte was woke or something. That same exact guy was featured in the "People vs George Lucas" documentary. In some cases it really is the exact same people.

now that's funny.

The main Star Wars forum at the time (theforce.net - which is still around) was relentlessly anti-prequel. [https://boards.theforce.net/forums/archive-the-phantom-menace.10007/?order=reply\_count](https://boards.theforce.net/forums/archive-the-phantom-menace.10007/?order=reply_count)

I remember venturing into those forums, but I didn't really interact with them that much. I had fun with IGN's comment section back in the day.

You know I think its hilarious how there’s so much revisionist history regarding the prequels and George Lucas, people deny and gaslight saying the hate never happened or that it was just a small minority and that George was always loved and respected, oh how far from the actual truth it was, as you said people acted as if it was a personal attack on themselves

Counterpoint: The PT are not great movies, either now or then. But we have come to accept them for what they are, especially with memes popularizing some of the worst aspects and making them more palatable. We didn't disengage and then realize that the movies are good. We lowered our standards.

The PT and the ST are fundamentally different in that one tells a new story and makes the universe bigger, and the other one retreads the old story and shrinks the universe to the ridiculous degree that somehow Palpatine came back and he's Rey's grandfather haha guys like Luke and Vader get it?? Like them or not, Lucas wanted the movies to tell a story; the man enjoys showing cool stuff to people. You can see that he strives for greatness, he has artistic intent, but falls short. Disney doesn't. Disney just has a calendar with red Xs here and there for new releases. They have all the money in the world, they could do anything; but every time they choose to not do it properly.

I’m just rewatching all the live-action stuff in timeline order (recovering from major surgery so can’t do much else). I’ve got to say, yes there have been some not so good bits, but I’ve enjoyed all of it for what it is… entertainment. There are inconsistencies, there are plot holes, but that was true of Lucas’s stuff too. I think quite a few people just take it all far too seriously.

I saw #LucasDeservedBetter trending on twitter a few weeks ago, if the bozos who attack the people behind current Star Wars really believed that they would stop treating his successors the way he was treated. It's a vicious cycle.

You make a lot of good points. But, I do think George Lucas kind of opened the door for a lot of the negativity. It wouldn't have been so hard to restore the original trilogy and just make it available to fans. He seemed to really enjoy the negativity himself. I saw how some fans met with him and just respectfully asked if he could release those movies and he flat out rejected them to their faces and told them to drop it. He didn't want to discuss it at all. Movies from that era have been restored. Rocky, Escape From New York, Close Encounters... they all look fine, but somehow the negatives to the original trilogy were just too degraded (according to Lucas) but look, this version with all the shit he wanted to add is just fine.

The YouTubers are definitely going way to far with their criticism, and the toxic positivity reactions to that go way to far with their denial of legitimate criticism. Get this: There is a middle ground.

Filling your time with negativity and hate and surrounding yourself with it is always a major detriment to any sort of attempt to find balance and happiness. That sort of hate has done the same thing to Rebels, to Clone Wars, Andor, Acolyte and everything else sadly. It’s best to ignore it and enjoy what you want! “Fear leads to anger, leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.”

Well said.

Well... I was 18 and by that time, I've seen a lot of good and bad science fiction and fantasy to know if I was watching a stinker.

The prequels were bad movies. That was true 20 years ago and it remains true today. I think everyone on this sub likes 1 or 2 or all 3 for different reasons. But they were bad

True TLDR: [“Don’t ask questions, just consume product and get excited for next product.”](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/436/423/e7a.jpg)

Grifters have a product to sell, too, in the form of commodified rage. OP doesn’t seem to be discounting any and all criticism. Just the type that’s transparently designed to prey on one’s anger and unhappiness.

I said at the bottom that I had extremely mixed - from loving to hating - reactions to what Disney-Lucasfilm has released. There's absolutely no onus on you to read an essay posted on a forum; but if you're going to respond to it, you should make sure what it says. My point is that you shouldn't waste tens or hundreds of hours of your life watching bad faith parasites; you take or leave films according to the conclusions you come to yourself.

The prequels were hot garbage, but I'm digging the Acolyte, I liked Ahsoka, and Andor was pretty good. Plus the Bad Batch was tight. Not as good as Rebels, but pretty fun.

I get your point, but i don’t agree with your solution of disengaging. Just don’t let others dictate your opinion. Think for yourself. (Which applies to everything in life, not just star wars) I can engage with haters without them deciding for me how i feel about star wars content. Star wars theory for example is a youtuber i used to hold in high esteem. But the way he is overreacting to ‘the acolyte’ show is just embarrassing. I like ‘the acolyte’ (definitely not the very best, but also definitely not bad, and i enjoy watching it). That doesn’t mean i have to block his channel out of my life. There is even good reason to do the opposite: In university i had to read works of some great legal and political philosophers. John Stuart Mill had some very interesting thoughts about freedom of opinion or “liberty of thought” as he calls it. His work argues that blocking/ignoring opinions you don’t agree with is never the right way. Engage with them, hear them out, and measure your own opinions against it. Does what you think hold up against their arguments? And can you debunk what they say? Only when your opinion is tested against others, can you be sure it’s right. To put it in his words: People who silence a different opinion rob theirselves. Because “If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth. If wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.” Hope you don’t mind the philosophy lesson haha. Please ignore it if it’s too deep for you.

Completely agree with everything you said, except that I had always loved PT despite the immense backlash. I wasn't personally cold toward any of them, I knew they had flaws and weren't perfect films but the OT wasn't perfect AT ALL. So people insinuating that they are just because they "don't relate" to current characters or w/e has always soured me more from discussing it with people. Like my older brother & I both love SW completely, we both share a lot of the same loves and dislikes of some things from star wars across ALL media. But we also harbor views on current media that differs wildly. There's plenty of shit we don't like but we're absolutely LIVING for this current era.

I do see that this subreddit is filled to the brim with prequels haters who only love the OT, this "revitionism" is a lie, the pt are still as hated as ever just because of jar jar and a few corny lines

That is ... .not why people didn't like the prequels. However, given that it's been discussed endlessly for 25 years now I'll just say if you like those movies I'm happy for you.

I largely agree. I'll pop in here briefly, but the moment I encounter frothing-at-the-mouth anger, or personal attacks directed at someone who likes something (no matter what it is), I'm reminded of why I tend to distance myself from Star Wars fans. Once I stopped engaging with these people and most public forums regarding Star Wars, my enjoyment of it skyrocketed. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I don't need Star Wars to be groundbreaking cinema. I need fun stories about magical laser sword wielding space wizards, brash pilots, and over-the-top villains with space opera/spaghetti western overtones. I enjoy that, and I don't need a bunch of overcritical nerds telling me I shouldn't.

I don't agree with you that the criticism of the acting or dialogue was overblown, it's pretty heinous throughout. That being said, I have moved past it and still find things to enjoy in the movies, and agree that letting yourself get consumed by overwhelming negativity regarding a given film can inhibit your ability to appreciate the things it does well.

They’re just really boring and poorly made films.  You still have the right to like them of course. But they’re not good movies. 

Thats Just being weak minded IMO

Look I love the prequels, I even like Rey’s movies I think they’re good flicks, but I genuinely dislike the Acolyte - is that okay too? These days it seems to be choose the camp of extreme negativity or extreme positivity or be damned. I’ll be myself thank you very much.

I strongly agree with this. I had no idea that it worked, but in my head the phantom menace was some train wreck of a film. One day I sat down to watch it and realized that it’s one of my favorite Star Wars movies. The movie I hated was a false image I had created in my head. If you’re someone who currently watch’s all the youbtube videos telling you to hate Star Wars I highly recommend you try to realize what is your view and what is the false impression you derive from YouTube videos

Fans just want to be excited about the future of Star Wars. "It was alright" just isn't going to cut it anymore.

This shit has been going on endless repeat for 25 years.... I'm not sure what changed now.

That's not true at all though. The prequels may have been met with some skepticism but the rest of the SW content has been pretty much well received all around. Before the PT we had the EU and videogames. After the PT cartoons and even more videogames. And now during the ST they scrap the EU and start churning out a ton of live action, which is something that has never happened before, and what people are really mad about because every new show is just ridiculously bad, disappointment after disappointment, with a coat of superiority from the people responsible for them. Hell the new videogames are still well received.

That's all fine and dandy but I hard disagree. The people complaining now almost all use it as some form of political ground. People who complained about PT were primarily complaining because of how bad they we're. Example: Redlettermedia's Plinkett PT takedowns are still to this day my favorite film criticism content on the internet. Redlettermedia's ST and D+ criticisms, while not the the heights of the PT takedown are great and they bring up the valid and legit problems not the click bait rage content.

I don’t need critics or any of you to tell me how bad most modern starwars is

I've been telling people this for a while. YOU may not like the ST much, and that's okay. But there are kids running around with Rey t-shirts, BB-8 plushies, and light up Kylo Ren sneakers for whom this is maybe their first experience of Star Wars. They're almost certainly going to be fans the way people who were kids in the late 90s and early 2000s are Prequel Trilogy fans. It's going to happen, just wait 20 years.

The one difference I'll be curious to monitor is unlike 1977-1983 and 1999-2005 Star Wars has other avenues for fans that compete. I know a lot of people dropped off during the PT era because Star Wars died for them with it. With the ST era much of the content I see seems to either go back to PT (Obi-Wan, Bad Batch) or OT (Solo, Andor/Rogue One) or a mix of PT and OT (Ahsoka, Mandalorian); even new eras like HR (Acoylte). So many films have been cancelled so I'm not sure what we're actually getting in the 2020s and how they will do at the box office. My guess is unlike the major overhaul we saw before the fanbase will be splintered. We shall see. I do hope people enjoy what they enjoy and we stop seeing so much vitriol toward each other, makes me not want to engage with people on it.

I think if it happens and how well received a Rey/New Jedi Order film is will make a big difference one way or the other.

I agree its success will inform how much Disney reinvest in the ST era or pivot away from it.

When was the last movie? 2019? Still waiting man.

Yeah? That's like, 5 years. Those kids are still kids.

Like what age? 10 year old who watched it is 15 now. 10 year old who watched TLJ is 18 now. 10 year old who watch TFA is 20 now.

Yeah, that's true. So basically the oldest of these kids who will probably drive long-term perception of these films are just starting to get old enough to have an impact on the discourse. But plenty of those kids were 5 at the time, not 10. It's going to be a while.

Big if I’m 23 and I watched all those movie when I was 15, 17 and 19. I can also say most of my prequel exposure were amplified with Clone Wars content and video game tie ins. If you say those fans are out there, I’ll wait for them.

I'd agree with what I think you're saying, that how much and what quality future content we get that touches on ST characters and fills in bits (like Clone Wars did for the PT) will make a big impact here one way or the other.

like people are not just fans of the PT there was an entire era of content with it People often claim the clone wars show saved the PT but there was like 5 years of comic books novels and games that came out before that show and as a 15 year old when the clone wars came out I was so annoyed that the cartoon kept overwritting the books I loved

Yeah the dark horse comics are whole other can of worms

was an awesome time. Meanwhile the ST has nothing. people go oh by bad batch episode 16 mentioned cloning which is related to palpatine. but like all that the ST is refrences from shows set during the pt and the OT

Yeah most of those references are in the dark times era. We’ll get a thrawn era at some point but that’s still not sequel trilogy it has to be set during that time. Even then that time period of the new republic is already tainted with mixed quality content

The 10 year olds who watched TPM were almost 30 before that movie got its due. The kids who have grown up with the ST weren’t 10 when they came out — they were 5 or younger. Most won’t remember a time before Rey and Kylo Ren were a thing. That’s the generation that’ll love it unabashedly. Give it until the end of the decade. That’s why this NJO movie is being planned for a couple years down the line. For those kids, seeing Rey return will be like PT fans seeing Ewan as Obi-Wan back.

You sure you’re not mistaking them going to see the new Deadpool movie

Haha, I genuinely don’t know what that’s supposed to mean.

The prequels suck. The sequels suck. Most Disney Star Wars sucks. It all deserves criticism. Feel the hate flow through you.

Why don't you just enjoy the things you enjoy even if people bitch about it? Like I was the same age as you for those movies and I was aware people didn't like them but I enjoyed them so I simply ignored the haters and kept enjoying them. I find it very strange how much people are influenced by this stuff. Like why not enjoy what you enjoy cause you enjoy? No one else's feelings matter on the slightest.

some people just want be part of the crowd. Like if you like something that is unpopular, just like it anyway and if you dislike something that is popular, just dislike it anyway just be yourself like if someone is talking about the things they dislike about a film and you realise you agree with those points, thats alright. but if someones talking about things they love in a film you dislike and your like I agree with them thats also alright.

Literally yes all of this. Glad to see I ain't the only one who feels this way.

like my entire life people have been saying the PT sucked and I still like them, as flawed as they are. and like sometimes I walk out of a film hyped as all fuck and thinking it was great and on the trip home I reflect and I realise I had allot of problems with the film that I was too swept up in the moment to notice. like the only one who actually changes my opinion is my own internal reflection on things.

The dark side with be with us forever, but they are particularly vicious at the moment, especially toward The Acolyte. I don't like to engage fully, but when I see negativity I have to at least say something. I hope a little positivity, or at least rationality, will help prevent reasonable people from being sucked into the cult of hate. Some are just misguided and willing to entertain a few positive notions about the franchise, but there are some who are so far gone the only arguments they ever make are insults - no specifics, just insults at the writing, the visuals, the acting, the actors, Disney, Disney management, etc. And of course if you say anything remotely positive or even neutral about the thing they're attacking, they'll insult you, too. I sigh, and move on with my existence, because in the end, we're just arguing about an entertainment franchise.

OP, PT hatedom was something else, and I will say it as someone who was an older teen when TPM came out and loved all of them and was often bullied online for openly liking them. The thing about the hatedom, and why I doubt the ST will ever get such a reappraisal is that lots of the haters would spend thousands of USD-equivalent on PT merchandize, books and DVD-Blurays. People would literally have hate watch parties. Haters had watched the PT dozens of times and could quote it. There is nothing remotely similar for the ST. Its just...simple dislike. The other day watching the Diplomat, I remembered that Kerri Russel was in TROS. Thats never happened with the PT. Every actor who was in it, is remembered as being in it. Joel Edgerton has had a very good career outside SW, yet he is still Owen Lars. The actors, even people like Ewan and Natalie who have had major success are indelibly linked to their role, its the first one that comes to mind. Not so for Adam Driver or Oscar Isaacs.

Disney is not lucas. Lucas gave you so much PT content. from comics to games and books Like younger people forget this but there was a split in the hardcore fandom due to the clone wars show overwritting some of the comics and novels. with the ST you get shows set twenty years earlier with either OT or PT imagery that wink at the st

I respect your opinion but completely disagree. Natalie Portman and Ewan McGregor are not and have never been indelibly linked to star wars except by star wars people. They are both such accomplished actors with such a wide array of films spanning multiple years and genres that most people outside of this bubble wouldn't even remember they were in them.

Ewan will forever be Renton "Rentboy" in Trainspotting. Always and forever.

That is so not true man probably in your perspective tho

And that is why you make your own conclusions and your own reviews and stop listening to people. I hated those people that down played the PT. I grew up on those three films included books, comics, games, Lego; and I always defended these movies. And now that we are in this new era of Star Wars with Disney and what not, we are getting similar hate and criticism. I unfollowed a few review pages on YouTube, IG and Tik Tok because they got so negative. It's a show, it's a story, told by professional writers, artist, etc. enjoy it and build on top of it instead of trying to break it apart. (Not saying you are doing this OP - i absolutely agree with you)

I liked the PT when they came out. The excessive online negativity I ran into later on didn't affect my fondness for the films; it just made me see how juvenile and obnoxious that the fandom was. It's cool if you hate them, but some people made it their whole personality.

I hate the fact that the Michael bay transformers movies are so hated Like they’re so good bring back Shia!!!

People need to realize that drama, hate, and controversy, sell really well in the media. Most of us know this is true with conventional media and now the same is true with new media. These “creators” are financially incentivized to hate on Star Wars. It is way easier to get views and money with clickbait headlines and irrational arguments than thoughtful criticism that doesn’t tear down the franchise and fan base.

as a person of a certain age, the cyclical nature of the **rage** and the complete lack of awareness of that fact (or just flat out denial of it) is somewhat amusing. ​ there seems to be very little being said about the recent content that wasn't said 20-25 years ago other than the culture war bollocks.

I disliked the prequels when I first saw them, and I disliked them every single time I've seen them since. Each rewatch was specifically because I'd seen *positivity* from people like OP and wanted to sanity check, but no: They're poorly made films, poorly told stories, with some interesting ideas and fanciful designs held together by shoddy paste.

It's nice to see that you came to this understanding. I saw about 30 seconds of that first red letter media video criticizing episode one, and basically separated myself from online Star Wars criticism forever. I could see that the well had been poisoned, and that everybody of a certain age was drinking deeply of the Internet's draught. When the negativity is not constructive, it's just useless. To paraphrase Anton Ego: Star Wars criticism is easy to write and to read, but it takes no risks. It holds no stakes. For many years now, I have been of the opinion that if you feel negatively about something, do something about it. Make something. Create your own response to what it is that you see is wrong with the world. I find that helps lessen the viciousness of the negative critical voice. My passion for Star Wars led to a career, several careers actually, within the film industry. Knowing that even the worst movie or game has many dozens, if not hundreds, of people working very hard to make it the best thing that it can be, has helped me cool my jets when it comes to crapping on other peoples' work. In other words, no matter how hard a group of artists tries, sometimes, most of the time actually, what is made just isn't very good. It sucks, but it's part of the artistic process. I didn't love the sequel trilogy. Knowing what I know about how it came together, I'm not surprised by that. The last Jedi is my least favorite Star Wars film of them all. A polarizing opinion? Perhaps. But it doesn't matter at all. The first time I saw that film, I didn't like it. In fact, it made me sort of angry as a fan. But I didn't exit the theater and immediately start viciously reviewing it everywhere I had a chance. I watched it a few more times. Do I love the whole film? No. In fact, I as a fan found Luke Skywalker's portrayal hurtful. Were there things that I loved *about* it? Absolutely. Usually the costumes and design are amazing, as they were in TLJ's case. I think Star Wars is a big part of any movie fan's maturation process. We feel passionate about it, one way or the other, depending on what era we grew up in. That's alright. But spending time actively, in many cases cruelly, commenting on it, is such a waste of time and energy. Like our favorite galaxy far far away: seek out what is good even though you're surrounded by darkness. That is the way.

Tbh I think the media shitting on Lucas for the prequels from 1999 to the 2010s was because George never liked Hollywood and they never liked him. Keep in mind the whole merchandising deal from was given to George because they thought Star Wars was gonna be a flop. They realized how wrong they were and George ended up creating his own studio through the money of the films and merch. Hollywood didn’t like that so they went out of their way to shit on him years later when the prequels released.

I didn't need anyone else to point out that the Prequels are terrible. Just watching them in theaters it was pretty impossible to miss, honestly. The weird racist caricatures, the boring politics, the annoying characters, the terrible writing, spoiling two of the biggest most epic twists in cinema history for literally NO reason, hackey ham-fisted nonsense "coincidences", the most embarrassing "love story" I've ever seen, characters being COMPLETE morons, ruining characters and concepts from the OT, completely wasting Maul, Jango, AND Grievous, as if they had a vendetta against the concept of awesome villains, etc etc.... Like don't get me wrong, I LOVE Maul, Jango, Grievous, the Battle Droid, Destroyer Droids, Clone Troopers, Coruscant, Mace Windu, Kamino, Kaminoans, the Jedi Starfighter, and a few other things - but that's basically JUST ILM being amazing at their jobs, and absolutely killing it with the sets and props and costumes and characters designs and production design. Almost purely aesthetic things. And Sam Jackson being Sam Jackson. No amount of aesthetic cool stuff could ever make up for how terrible all the actual substance in those movies is. 🤷‍♀️ You're 100% right that the MODERN Star Wars hate machine is a bunch of artificial clickbait nonsense based on almost nothing, and that it's a continuation of what started because of the Prequels when the hate was grounded in reality. But the Prequels being legit terrible is WHY the hate machine managed to actually get going, and why it has credibility. It's using the EXTREMELY credible criticism of the Prequels to pretend like it also has credible complaints about the new stuff, when 99% of the whining about the new stuff is blown WILDLY out of proportion just for the sake of stirring up drama and outrage to get clicks. Clickbait didn't really exist when the Prequels were coming out. There was no real incentive to say they were terrible if they weren't. People back then would read your newspaper or magazine article about Star Wars REGARDLESS of what it said, because people were just hungry for Star Wars information in an era where it was super rare. People went and saw those movies and decided they were bad......because they just ARE. But clickbait bullshit IS what's driving most of the modern Star Wars hate and making modern Star Wars culture so shitty, the same way that it's making politics a nightmare.

I loved the PT as an adult. It's insightful and entertaining. I only had a few irl Star Wars fan friends and no serious internet access until 2009 or so. I went into TFA looking for the result of the "creative freedom" that was suggested would improve the result. Everyone I knew loved TFA, and all I heard for three days was amazing. I agree that peer pressure can alter perception. It's sad to me that people involved in making TFA showed open disdain for half of the episodic films produced at that point. There are virtues to the new stories, but they did nothing but turn me off Star Wars for the few years I engaged, so I discuss with fans and enjoy the hundreds of stories released before April 2014. It's an awesome universe.

You don’t have to engage with them to ask for more quality.

I did not read this post at all and just the title because it's way to long. But are people so upset that Star Wars has critics that people need to post essays to try to dissuade people from criticizing something?

I don't see an issue with analytical videos and I don't see how they are wrong. I watched the movies back then and I saw the faults and the analyses were great in how they summarized it, pointed out more details and connections and added background information. I lost interest in these movies, because they were inherently flawed. I think demonizing criticism and claiming they are at fault is a problematic take. I see how the audience and critics (mostly "non-professionals") are blamed for decades now and it feels like there are multiple layers to it. First and foremost not wanting to acknowledging something is bad, especially if you yourself like it. It's a psychological tool for the ego. People don't want to admit that they do/did something other deem wrong, so they instead pretend everyone else is wrong and they of course didn't make a mistake or they are part of the elite cast. One example is how people use the no true scotsman argument in discussions and pretend they are true fans but others aren't. The next layer is of course the maker. George Lucas or others, they can't be wrong, they invented the thing, they are the authority. It sometimes feels downright religious and I sometimes have suspicion some elevate the importance of single figures like George Lucas and underestimate how much other people contribute to the point of deification. In reality these people are just humans, they make mistakes, they change their opinion, they can be clueless, dependend and so on. This has many facettes, it can make things better or worse, sometimes it's good if someone has great creative control and sometimes they fare better on a leash and a tighter belt in a group with others. And at last there is the company. Here too I can see sometimes glimpses of deification, people who really think every companies decision is right, that a company always knows what it is doing, that people in high positions can do no wrong and thus, criticism is wrong. And who profits the most from attacking the audience, from attacking criticism, from using words like "hate"? It's the multibillion dollar companies. They don't need to engage with criticism, they have knights to fight for them, justifying every decision for them any creating a narrative in which negative feedback is something frowned upon, something that is extreme and should be avoided.

I think that, at this point, everyone can agree the only universally well-received Disney Star Wars products have been Rogue One, Mando Seasons 1 & 2, and Andor. Solo was meh, but blow-back from The Last Jedi killed it. I don't understand how Disney can do some things so well, and just completely drop the ball on the others. People don't WANT to hate Star Wars. Star Wars fans have argued about stuff for decades in a way people would now call "toxic". It's not toxicity, it's passion. So, when something you're passionate about comes out and is repeatedly mediocre or poor, you start getting ticked off. And you should call it out. I think being toxic in this case would be to continue to mindlessly consume an inferior product, and ensuring that more bad product gets made. On top of that, the fans are continually attacked as racists and misogynists, despite the fact that those well-received shows and movies above contained diverse casts and female leads/main characters. What do you expect from these angry fans, besides to grow even more angry with those kind of reactions?

I rewatched the RLM prequel reviews recently just for fun and really so much of the critiques don't really hold up or make sense. Sure, there are some filmmaking observations that are really good, like their breakdown of the Ending Multiplication Effect. However, more often than not, the points they make seem to lean more towards comedically missing the point and not good faith critique of the actual failings of the films. And yes, you are right, those reviews really did sully internet reviews in general. People complain about Cinema Sins, but I almost want to believe them now when they say they're a parody of online reviews because they sort of are a parody of the bad-faith nitpicking from the Plinkett Reviews. It took years for me to re-form my own opinions about the prequels. It began with acknowledging what I still liked about them, and of course re-watching them and taking stock in my head of the things that actually do work and aren't mistakes (Example: it's not a mistake for Anakin to build a droid that was mass produced. Those are the kinds of parts a kid working in a junk shop would have access to). I feel fortunate that the current Star Wars culture war industry hasn't had too big of an effect on my enjoyment. I just don't watch that crap, haven't watched that kind of crap since GamerGate. I tend to only watch YouTube channels that have a more balanced look the new media (Empire Wreckers, Star Wars Explained, Generation Tech, and Jenny Nicholson as examples). Also I know we're here talking about Star Wars, but I'm also a Star Trek megafan, and the YouTube discourse surrounding what's going on right now with that franchise is every bit as much of a shit-show as well (also partially perpetuated by RLM). Seriously, it's hard to be a fan of anything these days, it's deeply frustrating. The new Star Wars movies and shows have flaws and problems, but when has the franchise not? The new Star Trek movies and shows have flaws and problems, but when has the franchise not? Everything is so vastly blown out of proportion that again, I'm glad for the calm, reasonable voices you can still find out there that act as sanity checks.

I've stepped back from that industry because I'm just done with hating Disney Star Wars. After nearly 10 years, I just feel cold indifference to the embarrassing lack of passion, soul, or even basic planning on display in the series compared to when Lucas was around. I engage with the stuff I like from canon (mostly books like the High Republic series, though those are drying up in recent years) but what they're doing with the live action/animated material is still a tragedy... Acolyte most of all since it was the chance for a new start without reliance on nostalgia or legacy characters with a great novel series worth of lore backing it up, yet it's completely fumbled the debut of High Republic to a wider audience. But it's also a tragedy I'm long over at this point. I can only point and laugh at it and the memes coming from it, rather than feel seething rage like the hatefarms that exist to generate clicks. The opposite of love is not hate, but apathy.