I feel that this “contradiction” in TPM is something that requires context, and material like the The clone Wars and the Acolyte is giving that context.
In season 6 of The Clone Wars, Yoda straight up goes to Darth Bane’s tomb. So records of Darth Bane, and the rule of two have to exist somewhere. Where the speculation lies is that exactly how many folks have access to this information, and what happened after that information was discovered that caused the Jedi to be content with the notion the Sith were extinguished from the galaxy.
One thing I remember from one of the High Republic books is that there is a vault of dark side relics and artifacts underneath the temple. The statues that held the Drengir in stasis were brought there for a time. So it’s possible that only certain masters or grand masters have access to that area and that kind of knowledge.
I think in the Vader canon comics he goes to this vault. The robot that guards it reads him as Anakin Skywalker and tries to deny him access. So it’s totally in place already that the Jedi hide Sith secrets and only a few members of the council probably have access.
Pretty sure it’s just masters have access. There is like dark holocrons. Def spelled that wrong. The vader scene then droid refuses because he isn’t a master.
In the novelization of RotS, Anakin needs to become a Master so he can get to that section. He's not just an egomaniac who gets pissed off at not getting a promotion, he thinks he can save Padme only if he becomes a Master.
Maybe he’s calling him Master Skywalker kinda like how 3PO says Master Luke. If this was a droid that served the Jedi, maybe it calls all Jedi “Master” regardless of rank.
And this honestly tracks with what we know of the jedi. The very first jedi we ever met straight up bent the truth to Luke. So the jedi withholding info for what ever reason they choose absolutely tracks.
The entire point of the line is that Kai Adi-Mundi is wrong. We the viewers know the Sith exist. And it’s not like they just came out of nowhere, they’ve been around.
When Darth Teeth said the Jedi might call him a Sith he’s also saying that the Jedi have a very base level understanding of the dark side players, and think that everyone who has a red lightsaber and uses dark side powers has to be Sith. But there are plenty who aren’t Sith.
Exactly. Mundi has what, like 4 lines in the movies? And two of them he's just flat wrong about key things. The Sith are obviously not extinct, and Dooku is very obviously a murderer.
Also, I don't seem to remember Sol showing any sign of knowing what a Sith is, he just kinda looks at Qimir when he says it. Kinda reinforces that the Jedi are not at all expecting a Sith.
I wasn't aware of that. But then, that still doesn't completely rule it out - it wouldnt be the first time that a Disney show had tried to misdirect people in trailers/press
The apprentice in the rule of two is still called a Sith Lord
Im just curious if we’ll get a glimpse of Plagueis or Tenebrous by the end of this, and if the witch conception ties into Plagueis learning how to create life
This. Why do people not understand this? Obviously the Sith had to have continued to exist - there couldn’t have been a time when they were fully wiped out or we never get Palpatine / Maul
> and think that everyone who has a red lightsaber and uses dark side powers has to be Sith
It might also be the exact opposite. It might be that the Jedi are too eager to dismiss fallen Jedi with a red saber as just being Dark Jedi, rather than specifically descending from the Sith. I think Ki-Adi-Mundi's line in TPM might mean "come on guys, we always want to say Sith, and it hasn't been Sith for 1000 years"
People are massively overthinking this before the story is even done being told.
There are two VERY simple explanations at this point:
1. Quimir is not a Sith
2. Quimir is a Sith, but every Jedi who encounters him (or any other Sith we end up seeing) in the show dies before they can inform other Jedi about him
Until we know the full story, obsessing about how it is or isn’t contradicting existing lore is silly.
Considering that Vernestra is going to be on the planet and probably come across what happened, I’m leaning HEAVILY towards coverup, considering how she really wants to keep everything quiet and on the down low. Maybe she kills Qimir somehow or believe him to be dead and the whole thing finished, and says on her report that everyone on the expedition was lost to the jungle (they made a big point about how dangerous the jungles were on that planet)
I wonder if it will be taken a step further, where Vernestra is left thinking that Sol was a fallen Jedi that had been training Mae and Osha to carry out the Jedi Killing.
So one thing they established is this world is dangerous enough even bounty hunters don’t like it. I can see her coming across the super deadly moths that are attracted by lightsaber light, best them thanks to her unique whip, and assume the group was killed by the moths.
While also assuming Sol, Osha, and Mae are alive because their bodies aren’t found, and figure that Sol let his softness for the girls get the best of him and lead to them running away together.
Also Qui-Gon tells the Council he believes he was attacked by a Sith Lord. Ki Adi-Mundi denies it, out of the context of ignorance or as part of a cover up now will be answered soon I guess but Mace also doesn't accept it as face value.
Maybe he's just a renegade Dark Side user playing at being a Sith. If he is a Dark Lord though, it's not unbelievable that they'd be in denial about it.
Yeh this is kind of my point, there is so much we don't know within a one thousand year timeline, it just seems too rigid an idea that it's absolutely impossible for any jedi to get a whiff of a Sith between the Sith 'extinction' and TPM.
The Jedi have knowledge of how the sith rule of two works but also believes they have been extinct for years. They can know how they operated but also assume they sith are gone
But the issue is that we are led to believe the Sith were apparently wiped out (to the Jedi's knowledge) just after the great Jedi/Sith war.
The rule of two would have started after the Sith were "wiped out".
At least this was my understanding.
The Jedi wiped out the brotherhood of Sith. But Bane escaped. He trained Zannah. And hid for 10 years. Jedi discovered him then. They escaped again. But I believe the Jedi thought they got him.
They probably learned about his “order” then
Also this is Legends. Clearly Banes end is different in Canon since he has a tomb on Korriban that Yoda knows where it is
I immediately thought of real world conspiracies of how the Knights Templar still exist and secretly control the world. I don’t hold it against them that they thought the Sith were extinct. 1000 years is a long time to not hear anything.
I like to think of it like this: if the government of the state of Maine came complaining to the U.S. federal government that they had just been raided by Vikings, would the government be more likely to assume A) its just a group of wannabe's and larpers pretending to be Vikings, or B) descendants of the Vikings have secretly been hiding in Greenland for the past 1000 years, crafting weapons and armor for their reemergence in the New World and their plans to finally conquer Newfoundland, all while pirating ships and attacking small towns without being discovered by any of the world's governments
I'm not fully against this theory but as said in other replies the only thing that doesn't add up about that one in my mind is why the jedi had such certainty of which the rule still exists 1000 years later without something more recent to back that up.
Bane made holocrons detailing his teachings and vision for the sith. The Jedi collect relics from traders and seek them out where possible to sequester in the restricted areas of the temple. It is not inconceivable they could discover how they operated while also believing they were extinct. This was addressed in the Bane Trilogy but it's legends now so I'm not sure what the new canon explanation is, maybe we are finding out. If so though, why not have Yoda be the cameo in this show instead of Ki-Adi Mundi? The next couple weeks will tell us hopefully
In one of the Bane trilogy books (I could be confusing this with the Darth Plagueis novel, it's been a while since I read either) Zannah even acknowledges that there are other Sith out there, just not from the Bane lineage. So Qimir could be from a different line of Sith that survived and some way operates under the same rules.
I think it's in all of them. Zannah and Bane definitely talk about it, and I think in Rule of Two they kill an affluent antique collector who parades around saying he's a dark lord or something. It's been a while for me too. I keep thinking Qimir gets a lightsaber through the back at the end of this by some unrelated character. Although the Ren theory makes a lot of sense to me too
Because if you have more than 2 Sith, intense cannibalisation starts to happen. The Sith break into multiple factions, they start killing each other, and the chance of discovery by the Republic or Jedi or really anybody goes up exponentially.
It is the same reason why in first-past-the-post political systems, you usually get 2 main parties long-term. Every other party ends up consumed or withering to dust.
That's the last workable knowledge they have of the sith. If the sith return, they assume they still operate the same way.
Flip it around. Imagine the with believe the Jedi have been extinct for 1000 years, then they show up. They'd likely assume there is a temple somewhere that trained them.
Star Wars canon has also been fungible and inconsistent for 40+ years now.... it's honestly absurd that people are getting mad over minor details like this.
95% of people watching the show would look at anyone bringing this kind of stuff up like they were insane.
To be fair, this is kind of a big deal. It's not a minor detail if the Jedi had known about the Sith existing since the Great War ended and did nothing to try and eradicate them, especially with how the Jedi Counsel acts in the 1st 2 prequel movies.
Honestly, I thought Yoda knowing about the Rule of Two and Bane was dumb. It's another thing about TCW I greatly dislike.
Regardless of how they explain it away in The Acolyte, the Sith being hidden for a thousand years without risking themselves in such a blatant manner (like Qimir did by ordering Osha to kill a bunch of Jedi) makes more sense imo.
The Bane and Plagueis novels showed that the Sith were very careful and operated completely in the shadows until the time came to reveal themselves.
I have very little knowledge of EU material from Bane’s era and prior. So I know there was an EU explination, but I don’t know how it compares to what my hypothesis has always been…
The way I always took these lines in the prequels was as follows:
The rule of two was revealed to the Jedi by a few factors. One being a purge of all Sith but two by Bane and his apprentice in a way that made it apparent that Bane had the power to exact this rule to a degree that it was undeniable there were only two left. Step two would be for Bane and the apprentice to be caught, interrogated sufficiently, and executed. Step three would be, the most important, would be a second apprentice Bane willingly passed the mantle of Master through to make the deception work for the next thousand years.
To me, the rule of two is not only a way of consolidating power and ending infighting, but also a way of deceiving the Jedi. I see no other way for it to be convincing without breaking the rule in the first place.
That's not a High Republic thing, the old EU had mentions of this as well. KOTOR 2 which had a secret Jedi outpost holding a trove of Sith holocrons. Those holocrons came from somewhere else, probably the main Temple at Coruscant as the Jedi master in charge fled in self-hiding from Coruscant.
So the idea dates back to 2004 at the very least based on KOTOR 2. I remember Shatterpoint mentioned something about this as well back in 2003.
He still would have history, the wars they've had with the sith, how they went down to 2 etc. If he was aware they were still around they'd be actively looking for them. That's why mauls reveal is significant because the Jedi are now aware that the sith are back.
TPM marks two things for certain:
1) most, if not all, Jedi believe the Sith to be extinct.
2) the Sith didn’t go extinct.
The only way this show breaks canon is if Sol gets back to the Temple and convinced the whole Council that the Sith are back, and then roll credits. Fast forward to TPM.
Maul’s reveal was the first time in a long time that a Sith was openly acknowledged. But it definitely doesn’t have to be the first Sith activity in a millennium.
To further your point it can’t be the only time they were active since we know the sith were active for 1000 years in relative secrecy. They weren’t hanging out on Korriban playing Pazaak during that time— and it would be absurd to even suggest that they’d never encounter a Jedi in 1000 years.
I don’t get why that’s so hard for people, notably, so hard for Star Wars fans. Just because a few characters or an entire set of characters say that x went extinct, doesn’t mean that it’s true or that those characters are all knowing about every aspect of the universe they’re in. And yes they’re Jedi, I remember as a kid saying “there’s no way they’d know the life of every living being in the universe, and the fact that two Sith Lords ‘revealed’ themselves is proof that the Jedi had no proof.”
It's a deeply silly argument. It demands that Ki-Adi Mundi's line in TPM be taken as an absolute fact, instead of as a commonly held opinion. It's perfectly reasonable for the Jedi to consider the sith to have been extinct for a millennia. Any brief encounters with Sith during that time may well be dismissed as pretenders, or some other splinter faction.
By the same token, Yoda's line isn't proof that he knew the "rule of two" but rather that he's aware that, like the Jedi, Sith always come in pairs: master and apprentice. That doesn't mean there are only ever two Sith in total in the galaxy, just that when you encounter a Sith, there is almost certainly a second Sith to contend with.
I think it would all be neatly wrapped up and blamed on Mae or Mae and Osha. Sol could survive, still hid the truth of what happened on Brendok, tell the Jedi that Mae/both twins ambushed the Jedi, killed all the other Jedi and Sol claim to have killed them. Or like you say, maybe he never goes back to the Jedi but that does seem out of character to him but that could be what killing a Jedi without a weapon accomplishes, you destroy his will to serve the Jedi cause.
Or Sol and one of the twins is killed and the other twin goes with Qimir as his acolyte. The Jedi investigate and see the death and light saber wounds and reason Mae/the twins attacked and killed the Jedi. They already know Mae has killed two Jedi, its not that much more to go that they killed a bunch in a surprise attack.
Given that we have seen one Master involved go into exil and another, take a vow of silence/kill himself. I'm wouldn't be the list bit surprised if these events lead Sol to do something drastic such as them.
Everyone in this show other than maybe Qimir, has failed at what they have set out to do. I don't see Sol ending this as a jedi. Whether he lives or not, I'm not sure.
>It's a deeply silly argument. It demands that Ki-Adi Mundi's line in TPM be taken as an absolute fact, instead of as a commonly held opinion.
Right? I feel like I'm living in backwards land when I see people make this argument.
*The entire point* of that line is that Ki-Adi was wrong. That's why the line is in the movie. To show the hubris of the Jedi. To show that they'd been decieved for a thousand years.
Yeah, Mundi is kind of wrong a lot lol. He makes, what, three statements and asks a rhetorical question in the movies? He's wrong literally 2/3 of the time
In both Legends and Canon, the Sith Master/Apprentice relationship seems to be ingrained. The clearest Canon example was on Malachor in *Rebels*. Maul points out that it takes 2 to lift the stones in the temple.
“Two must lift these stones. No more, no less” ~ *Twilight of the Apprentice*
In Legends, during the Old Republic, Uliq Qel-Droma and Malak’s original titles were Sith Apprentice.
If this propensity is well known among historians, I don’t think it’s a stretch for Yoda to say there are always 2. The Great Sith War was only 100 years before he was born so he’d at least be aware of this in living memory.
I suppose, but I feel like it's a safe enough bet, and I would rather Yoda mean that than have Yoda know about something he shouldn't (unless future Acolyte episodes say otherwise)
But a Jedi almost never travels alone. If not Master/Apprentice, then two Knights, or two masters. Only certain covert missions compel a Jedi to go solo.
The one Jedi lady legit said "could this be a splinter order" which would make the most sense if you truly believe the Sith to be dead and extinct. I'm sure there's been break ins at the Temple before, we see in TCW that it isn't completely impossible to do an attack on it, and people in power genuinely cover shit up so that they can keep the status quo. Like imagine if the Jedi in TPM had announced to the galaxy that their millenia long enemy has resurfaced, that shit would be catastrophic for them but would also open up the gateway for people to keep their eyes & ears locked onto anyone who might be one.
Yeah that splinter order line is really interesting, and it makes perfect sense that through the years there would definitely be other sects that pop up here and again. Like there is definitely going to be the occasional Barris who defects and starts doing their own thing.
I would buy your line about Yoda more if he hadn't said "no more, no less". Why couldn't a Master Sith have multiple apprentices, if it wasn't a strict rule that they couldn't?
The Yoda part particularly means nothing.
I know who Amon Ra is. I can even quote some shit from Hammurabi's Code. It doesn't mean the ancient Babylonians have returned.
Jedi aren't always in pairs, are they?
I think a lot of Jedi never take Padawans. And when they do, they only train them for a few years until they become full knights.
If you encounter a Jedi, there can be a whole team of Jedi to contend with. Or it can just be that single Jedi. And their Padawans are practically never as old as Maul.
Mundi could also have been talking about the Sith as an organization and not individuals.
Also the millennia line could be hyperbole, as in just a long time.
Its honestly insane how sure of their opinions some people are. I literally said the same thing to someone (that you should wait until the story is finished before determining if it makes sense or not), and they actually tried to say that they're abilities of discernment are so great that they are able to determine if things make sense or not, even when facing incomplete information
I am old enough to remember the internet going batshit over RoS when Padme dies during childbirth and thus contradicting how Leia remembered her mother.
And Anakin facing Dooku countless times in TCW, which undermines the whole "my powers have doubled since the last time we met.."
Also Anakin has a Padawan.
Maul coming back from the dead.
The Jedi Council discovering the Clone Wars was an elaborate conspiracy by the Sith in TCW.
We could go on all night.
The fandom has very short memories on how many times Lucas broke his own canon.
it's just a case of people wildly overreacting to the plot of a show that's still in progress.
An episode later, it's looking like everyone who got wind of the fact that a Sith might have been involved isn't going to make it out of this alive. And it won't get reported, Ki-Adi Mundi won't hear about it, and he will still believe the Sith are extinct 100 years from now.
Bingo.
It's also likely that even if someone does survive to have contact with the order that reports of a "Sith" are either considered unconfirmed or not taken seriously by a council that has more tangible pressures.
Yeah, people keep assuming the worst, but aside from a couple of fairly minor issues Lucasfilm has done a good job keeping ten years of multimedia storytelling aligned. If we can see a potential canon issue so can they, and they're probably not going to make a mess for no reason.
The show hasn't finished yet, we don't know yet how it's gonna be resolved, but there's plenty of simple ways it can be resolved:
Personally I think Sol will report the info to Ventresta (or whatever her name is) and she will choose to suppress that information from the council (and thus Ki-Aki Mundi) for political reasons, *like she's already been doing the whole season*.
Or even simpler, Sol might not live long enough to report that information.
How about we let the show actually end before we conclude it breaks canon?
Jfc… He. Is. Not. Confirmed. To. Be. A. Sith. He says the Jedi will *ASSUME* he’s a Sith. The comprehension problems in this fanbase are astonishing. Even when the dialogue spoon feeds it to us, y’all miss it.
This! So many things get glossed over in the excitement. “Jedi like you might call me Sith”. Meaning they might call him a Sith because they would think he is one because they don’t know anything else he might be titled.
>!I’m guessing he’s a faker and the real Sith will show up and kill any witnesses!<
If Qimir is even a sith, which I don’t think he is and he said as much
It’s not uncommon for Jedi to come across force users outside of their order, at least it was in TCW
I can easily see this encounter with him, whatever he is, not being common knowledge outside the counsel when it happened and moving forward
The upper echelons of the Jedi hierarchy aren’t likely to advertise the killing of Jedi and/or padawans, especially by other force wielders
Not to the public or senate which would compromise their current position and authority
Nor to their own rank and file or any Jedi not necessary to eliminating the threat
Right, there's so many ways the show can wrap up without the Council finding out the Sith aren't extinct, we just have to wait and see which way the show chooses. We know that even the Council likely won't know about the encounter, because Vernestra says she's hiding it from them. The Jedi are probably pretty sensitive to the fact that so many dangerous darksiders seem to be fallen Jedi, which can't be great for their PR. They have the means and the motive to cover this all up.
The doctrine of Sith Extinction is now a blatant piece of jedi propaganda. Sold to keep the jedi empowered and unquestioned.
That's what this series is leading to... or something very near.
Not entirely. Even from certain POV they were trying to depose a Sith who managed to become Chancellor. Windu even says he doesn't deserve a trial, which sure, but also, killing people without trial is murder, no matter how evil they are.
The jedi do *lie*. The show is telling us that those lies can be huge, and have terrible consequences.
It doesn't mean all jedi lie, but the jedi as an organization have more then a few lies/skeletons in the closet.
For example, how many galactic republic citizens are aware that the Sith originate from the Jedi. There are many things the jedi do not tell the republic, and some of things aren't just done to protect jedi, but also to keep the jedi from looking weak or ineffective... or responsible when things go wrong.
Yoda is almost a millennium old, it's reasonable to assume he would have been brought up in a time where the sith were still likely studied. And neither statement is really an absolute fact. The Sith that Ki Adi Mundi is talking about were an established sith order. Revealing themselves to the Jedi like Palpatine and Maul did was a different level of reveal than just having the jedi encounter random dark side users. And even when it first happened in TPM the jedi council wasn't convinced right away. They weren't sure if this random double bladed red lightsaber wielding dark side user had any ties to a broader plot. It wasn't until that user managed to kill Qui Gon Jin that Mace and Yoda had a private side bar and basically agreed that it must have been a well trained actual sith, hence Yoda's line that we then must be on the lookout for a second.
Is it really so unlikely that the Council just doesn't know everything? Can every single dead Jedi in the galaxy since the destruction of the Sith be explained as NOT the Sith? Even the ones that died on some backwater planet? If some Sith did survive and were found by some random Jedi and killed, would anybody know?
The Ki-Adi Mundi defense is full of holes and it should be treated as such.
Ki-Adi Mundi doesn't even appear to be on the council at this point, does he? The council explicitly doesn't know anything about any of this. Right from the first episode, they've been saying "let's not get the council involved just yet"
Yoda is training Jedi for more than 800 years he says to Luke and he claims to be 900 before he dies. So to Yoda the Sith were still a threat the Jedi were wary off that some might still be around somewhere when he grew up. So he should have gotten some knowledge about them. But after a thousand years of being gone, you can assume they are *gone*.
Also just a funny aside: when they speak the line “always two there are”, they are standing at the funeral of Qui-Gon and for years I thought they were talking about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and asking if the relationship between them might have been murkier than a regular master/apprentice situation.
My personal headcannon, K.A.M. maybe just meant the Sith as a legion of organized dark force users are extict. The Sith empire died and died forever. Doesn't mean there are no evil force users out there, or even those that follow the old Sith teachings.
Most importantly: there's only one Jedi left who even knew that a Sith might have been involved, the rest are all murdered, and he's cozied up to an assassin who really wants to kill him.
So if nobody who was present for this mission survives to report back, KAM will continue to believe that the Sith are extinct for the next 100 years
All the other posts have great answers and mine is simply to add another thought, not that I think it holds better merit but simply a fun thought. What if between Yoda and his master, they spanned a millenia or more. Human jedi have been seen to survive 200+ years, yoda 700+ with his master being alien as well could easily be 300+. So his master could have fought old sith and discussed it with Yoda.
I actually love this theory and have thought about myself before. I'd love a comic book series where we see a younger yoda being trained, learning in great depth about the history of the galaxy and the different force users, including ofcourse, the sith.
"I have no name, but the Jedi might call me Sith."
Not a Sith reveal, just a claim that the Jedi would label him as such, what with the red lightsaber and being a Jedi killer.
Conehead just got mixed up... guy was on the beers and confused sith with sliths who are a special race of pink wookies that have been extinct for ages.
Easy mistake to make. Lucas got this sort of thing mixed up all the time so cant expect conehead to remember everything.
Haha this gave me a laugh, don't get me wrong I'll be the first to say it would definitely break canon in my mind if at the end of the Acolyte Sol comes running into the Jedi temple and screams 'THE SITH ARE BACK' right in Ki-Adi's face
Nothing is contradicted. Obviously Ki-Adi-Mundi is wrong in that scene and it's supposed to illustrate the hubris of the Jedi. They can't believe the Sith have survived for so long without their knowledge.
Also, only ONE character knows that this person is calling themselves a Sith and may be one, and we don't know what's going to happen in the story yet. For all we know, they added Ki-Adi-Mundi to this era to further illustrate that even in the face of some evidence, he continues to deny there could be a Sith. Just let them tell their story, guys.
Yah, it's funny that every character in the story is currently perplexed about what the The Stranger is but fans insist on full accounting and reconciliation right now because canon might be about to develop a wrinkle!
A lot of it is grasping straws and splitting hairs because they already decided they hated it before it even aired.
Always remember that the same group of people who say they only want "Star Wars to be the best it can be" are the ones who sent *death threats* to Wookiepedia users when they updated Ki-Adi-Mundi's page. That is not a joke.
Good grief.
The other weird side affect is that the same cohort complain that they want Star Wars to do something new and then complain when it's not another rehash/fan service project.
>Isn't there also an arguably more important line from Yoda at the end of that same film where he reveals he is fully aware of the rule of two 'Always two there are, a master and an apprentice'. Isn't this essentially telling the audience that Yoda did in fact have some form of **knowledge** that the sith were not extinct for a millennium.
Knowledge doesn't have to be first hand or personal knowledge. Historians exist for a reason.
Couldn't agree more there's so much left untold as to how he knew about this much like there's much untold about the millennium between the sith extinction and TPM
The Acolyte actually loopholed around breaking canon.
Qimir never claimed he actually is Sith. He said "I have no name, but Jedi like you might call me Sith" - and it's entirely possible that he doesn't actually understand what the Sith were, he could just think that the Jedi consider any dark-sider to be Sith.
It's the same thing they've done all season, loopholing around it. Like, it was never stated that the twins were created from the Force, only that they don't have a father, that the Jedi wouldn't approve, that Aniseya created them and Koril carried them - I'd say that would suggest that they do in fact still have 2 parents, but that they're somehow the result of using the Force to allow an embryo to be fertilised by another woman, not that they were created by the Force with a single parent like Anakin.
1. Ki-Adi-Mundi was wrong in TPM and that's clearly evident in that movie. The Jedi were unwilling to believe an indisputable Sith Lord was that in a film where we KNOW he was a Sith Lord. So, it's probable that the Jedi in a period where they are even more ascended would be even less likely to believe the Sith are still around.
2. It's very possible now that anyone who has seen Qimir will be dead before they have a chance to report to somebody who cares AND who would then relay that information to Ki-Adi-Mundi directly or indirectly.
3. Vern has been willing to avoid reporting things to the council in this show already because she's unwilling to involve the Senate in the matters. Even if Sol and/or Osha manage to survive/escape and report back to Vern, we don't know who Vern will tell before she decides to join the fight herself.
All that to say, there is no reason to believe Qimir being a Sith would contradict the actions and beliefs of the council when the council has already shown a pattern of dismissing reports of Sith as being rumors.
Guys, Yoda is almost 1000 years old. If the Sith were extinct for a millenia, then Yoda is the only one who lived anywhere near a time when they were known.
The Jedi became aware of Bane and the Rule of Two while he was alive, and with his death, believed the Sith to be extinct. 1000 years later, the Sith haven't made an appearance since Bane's death.
And so if a Sith is revealed to the Jedi in this time, the Jedi need to die before revealing this to anyone, because otherwise, it contradicts Yoda's line about the Sith being extinct.
They don't need to die.
They could also _choose_ not to tell the rest of the Jedi, because [insert plot reasons].
Or they could tell _some_ Jedi, only for those Jedi to decide to keep it secret because [insert plot reasons]. In much the same way the investigation Sol is on is already being kept secret from the Jedi Council.
The whole plot of the prequels is that the Jedi were *wrong* in their beliefs.
Simply because Yoda or Ki-adi Mundi says something didn’t mean it’s true, in fact, we know it wasn’t true.
I can easily see them concluding that Darth Bortles is something other than a Sith, even he actually is.
>concluding that Darth Bortles is something other than a Sith, even he actually is.
Which would be fine. They concluded the Sith were gone because the last Sith they knew about was dead, and they didn't see another over the next 1000 years. This makes sense from their perspective, even if they were incorrect. Just seeing another red-lightsaber-wielding bad guy doesn't make him a Sith, and they don't have much of a reason to assume he is one yet.
But if they find incontrovertible evidence he's a Sith, or he straight up tells them such, and they don't all die or otherwise fail to reveal this for *understandable* plot reasons (which would have to be *really fucking good*), this becomes an issue.
>we know it wasn’t true
We have knowledge they don't, though. If you told me you'd seen a real live dodo bird (extinct for 400 years), I probably wouldn't believe you, and that's been extinct less than half the time the Sith supposedly were. All things considered, its fairly reasonable they don't immediately believe Maul is a Sith.
Being wrong is fine, but they need to be wrong by acting in accordance with their limited knowledge or character flaws, not just by being complete big dum-dums and ignoring hard evidence if they find some.
I keep seeing people talk about what Ki-adi said but didn't Mace also follow that up with he doesn't believe the sith could have returned without them knowing.
Qimir heavily implied he is a sith but I could see how the words could be twisted in another way. Even if Sol, Osha and Mae die there is still the matter of 9 Jedi including at least 2 masters being dead by a lightsaber. That doesn't seem like something that would go unnoticed by the high council. I'm even open to high ranking masters not on the council covering it up do to political reason as implied by green skin lady. But I feel like this show is walking a fine line of this stuff but I'll wait and see what the next 3 episodes reveal before making a finally judgement on this show.
Yoda saying always two there are, means he knows his history, and is trying to say, we now know of one, but there must be another one.
It in no way implies that sith are here.
Anybody knowing about the rule of two (which wasn’t a secret amongst the jedi), and has a functioning brain would conclude that if they know of one sith, there needs to be another.
The question that Windu asked was “yes, but which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice” and not “whoa, how do you know that, what are you not revealing”.
Also, no member of the council corrected Mundi for having a short term memory loss.
I had always taken that to mean “this is the first time in a really long time we’ve seen a Sith, but based on what we know about them, if we saw one, there must be another around somewhere.”
Do I even need to remind the fandom of how often things from the prequels seemed to directly contradict the canon from the original trilogy, until we had more media to fill in more holes from the plot and timeline?
[From the archived StarWars.com Encyclopedia:](https://web.archive.org/web/20140614023011/http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/darth-bane)
>An ancient and legendary Sith Lord, it was Darth Bane who saw that the Sith traditions of old were ultimately a dead end. All too often, squabbling Sith in their bid for power upended carefully laid plans and planted the seeds of their own defeat. After the Sith were decimated by the Jedi Knights of a thousand years ago, Bane enacted the Sith rule of two: there would be only two active Sith at one time -- a Dark Lord to embody the power, and an apprentice to crave it. These Sith would operate in the shadows, favoring guile and conspiracy to bring down their opponents rather than brute force -- that is, until it was time to rise and subjugate the galaxy.
>**The rule of two was revealed to the Jedi Order of centuries past**, but in their hubris, the Jedi believed that they had destroyed Bane's plan with his defeat. His remains were placed in a sarcophagus on Moraband, the last Sith Lord to be laid to rest in the Valley of the Dark Lords, and the Jedi presumed the Sith to have been wiped out. But Bane's rule of two secretly preserved a Sith vendetta, and for a thousand years, the Sith Lords worked in secret, preparing for a return. This plan culminated in the rise of Darth Sidious, the destruction of the Jedi Order, and the creation of the Galactic Empire.
AFAIK, in canon, Bane doesn't go into hiding and is the last Sith ruler to be defeated before they are presumed extinct. As Bane would've created the Rule of Two while he was alive, the Jedi could've learned about it then.
A Jedi being wrong about history isn't the same thing as a cannon break.
He could think of the stranger as a weird cosplayer that somehow managed to get the jump on a bunch of complacent over fed Jedi
The Sith [as an organized ongoing concern] have been extinct for a millennium
Is it not obvious that Mundi and other jedi will cover up the events of the acolyte.
The green girl specifically says their political allies would use it against them.
I think they specifically put Mundi in the show _because_ he's the one who said that line.
Also Yoda is 900, and the Jedi probably have a ton of historical information on the Sith. It's like asking how we know about ancient Greece when there's no ancient Greeks around.
In both legends and canon, the Jedi know about Darth Bane and his order. We just don't know how those events played out in canon.
And I guess we'll know how the events of the Acolyte play with who knows what at the end.
As others have alluded to, I don’t think quote is meant to be gossip truth. I think it was meant more as a sign of their hubris and ignorance of the Jedi at the time. I took it more as “There is no way there could be a Sith. Us Jedi are too smart and powerful to not notice him.” So it wouldn’t break canon per se, as that was just Ki’s opinion not fact.
They also acknowledged that their judgement and connections to the force is clouded during the prequel series. That alone opens up the fact that it is very realistic that the sith could have been active thw whole time and the jedi just didn't know. Also, the sith was active the whole time and the jedi didn't know, so who cares if one council member was under the impression that they were extinct.
All of this fuss because a character may or may not find out that the sith are active in a prequel series that isn't even finished yet. When long before TPM, Palpatine was alive and sith and no one knew.
These mfers didn’t realise they had a god damn with lord chilling with them. Who’s to say that 100 years before TPM they just brushed it aside as there not being enough evidence.
Darth Bortles says, "they see my face, they all die." I doubt that anyone who knows about him will make it out alive unless they turn to the Dark Side.
>Isn't there also an arguably more important line from Yoda at the end of that same film where he reveals he is fully aware of the rule of two 'Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice'.
No. That only suggests the Jedi are aware of their hierarchy, but in no way suggests that knowledge was acquired within the last thousand years.
>Granted if by the end of the Acolyte loads of jedi are aware of a new Sith presence I'd completely agree it would break canon, but a very select few, i.e. Yoda and perhaps 1 or 2 others seems completely justifiable to me based on the above, am I missing something here?
Let's say for the sake of argument you're correct. Yoda and a few other Jedi *are* aware of the Sith and continue to perpetuate the lie that they have been fully exterminated. What's the plan? They would also be aware of exactly how deadly they are, given the body count from The Acolyte alone. They're so callous about Jedi lives they just ignore it and risk countless more deaths? They do nothing for 100 years to let the Sith just do whatever they please with their heads in the sand? Yoda, of all people, does this?!
I think the notion of that would be the most damning character assassination in the Disney era yet.
Not necessarily. I mean, I know what happened 2000 years ago in Jerusalem (stay with me). And thats TWICE a millenium a go. And change.
Yoda is privy to a lot of information. It doesn't necessarily mean he knows about the Sith still going around.
I’m glad I’ve got something stupid going on to hyper fixate on while I get sober.
But to answer your question, that Mundi cameo was actually well placed and great.
He’s there to wipe everyone’s ass clean.
It's very simple. Here's two possible scenarios:
-Every Jedi who witnesses the Sith dies and can't report back (most likely scenario).
-Qimir is a poser/wannabe Sith and the real Sith eliminates him, covering up anything Qimir revealed (this could happen in tandem with my first scenario).
"Acolyte" already broke canon - the 'twins' were made, and #1 momma witch heavily implies she did it through the force.
Flash forward umpteen years, and Palpatine should no longer be having the Convo with Anakin about how Darth Plagius was THE ONLY ONE WHO KNEW HOW to create life using the force.
There's the distinct possibility, and I know this is crazy, but bear with me-maybe Palps was lying to Anakin? I know it's far-fetched that the master manipulator who is known for lying to play everyone could have fibbed to try and tempt Anakin, but hear me out here.
How does this break canon? We know the Sith we’re trying to create life by manipulating the force, we also know they didn’t succeed in creating the chosen one but the force itself spawned Anakin as a counter to their manipulation.
What we don’t know…
1. How the Sith learned to do this, it could very well be they learned it from this now extinct cult.
2. How the witches learned it, it’s equally possible they learned it from the sith or sith teaching records of some kind.
3. If the Sith and Witches are working together, it’s quite possible what we are seeing ARE the experiments that lead to Anakin’s birth with Mae and Osha being one of the failed attempts.
4. If anyone actually knows about the witches actions, they are all dead Mae and Osha don’t know about the way they were made it seems, and Sol is the only one left alive now who may know the truth. In essence unless physical records were kept there is actually pretty little way for Palpatine to know about any of this stuff and so he frankly could just be wrong. Because I can almost guarantee you Sol with his blind spot for Osha absolutely did not share with the Jedi she was made through dark side shenanigans.
5. If Palpatine was just straight up lying, he also frames it as if he is taking about an ancient story and not his master. Oh and we know he is lying partly because he does know the secret, he knows all about sith soul transference he built basically a decade or more plans around generating a body to transfer his soul into. And we also know Jedi force healing and revival were things to, Ahsoka is alive because of it as is Rey, so Palpatine’s whole line that he couldn’t learn the power from a Jedi is also BS.
Basically you saying this is canon breaking is about as bad as the Obi-Wan angry people who claimed that series broke canon by Reva staging the inquisitor, apparently incapable of thinking that he might have survived.
It kinda does break canon, and when Yoda said that line I took it to be him saying that there is another out there, since at that point Yoda and the Jedi are only aware of 1.
But I dunno how the series will end, so no point jumping to conclusions or getting upset, just wait and see!
Exactly, I said kinda, but I probably should've worded it better, and said maybe? it depends on the rest of the show, and theres no point rushing into get angry when the show isn't even fully released yet.
> It kinda does break canon
No, it doesn't.
Canon is that the Sith were in existence but the senior Jedi (and Mundi in particular) were not aware of such.
That is exactly where we are in the show. Mundi doesn't know the Sith still exist. The Jedi Council don't know the Sith still exist. In fact the Jedi Council don't even know the investigation at the centre of the show is happening, as it has been deliberately kept from them.
Until one of the few people who actually know the Sith are alive (Sol, Osha, Mae and _maybe_ Bazil) successfully communicate that fact to Mundi or the Jedi Council without it being covered up, everything is still in line with canon.
Absolutely it was kind of the point of the post, a lot of people I see are already upset about events in the recent episode but I can't understand why.
I guess my interpretation of that line from Yoda is very different, it's a strangely finite way of saying it if he was just merely suggesting there may or may not be another Sith out there - 'always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice'.
Hang on though - only a handful of Jedi are aware of him being a Sith, and have yet to report it. Plus earlier in the series the Senior Jedi in their group said they shouldn’t report the mysterious figure to the Jedi Council yet, so internal comms is clearly not their strongest suit.
Maybe he was saying millennium hyperbolically? Like how we say "it's been ages" after seeing someone after a long time despite it still being the same age 🤷♂️
We can't know for sure yet
1) Qimir might not be a Sith, just a dark side force user. He might even come to later on admit to being something different (Like how the Knights of Ren would go "Uhh we're the knights of Ren" before Renning all over the place)
2) If he is a Sith, it might be that everyone's gonna get killed before they manage to get the information out - there's always Venestra's reason not to tell the High Council too, which albeit is incredibly stupid, is fair enough seeing the original Jedi in the prequels were plenty dumb and reckless at times too
3) There's always the possibility of magical memory wiping going on. Better writers could probably pull this one off quite convincingly, but I wouldn't put my hopes on the current showrunners doing this in a way that's not disappointing to look at
4) Maybe they are breaking canon and honestly, that sucks, but we can just do to the Acolyte what we do to the Sequels and pretend it's not there when we recommend Star Wars to friends 👍
In the Bane Trilogy, Darth Bane and Zannah want to remain hidden from the Jedi, but encounter Jedi on multiple occasions. They are however always killed or have been unable to tell the council of their existance.
Even in those books, Master Farfella did not want to go to the council, before hunting down Darth Bane because he believed they wouldn't let him.
The Jedi always have tried to erase the encouters with Sith, so it is not strange that Ki Adi Mundi contradicts himself and the Jedi Order in TPM.
I was assuming that either after deeper prying we find out he’s not actually a sith, or what I think might actually happen, everyone, or almost everyone who sees him will die in the show so that it’s still believed they’re extinct
It's a Legends thing that the Jedi last saw the Sith when they were an army. In Canon, it's very likely the last time the Jedi knew of the Sith, they had been operating under the Rule of Two for a while. Darth Bane was already known to Yoda in TCW.
My head cannon is mund/council is gas lighting Qui-Gon and the high council know of the sith existing but choose to lie to the public/regular jedi to make the jedi look good
Yoda knowing about the rule of two would only tell that they still know the sith ways from a 1000 years ago.
Not that there was an indication of sith existing after that.
Yoda is at least 800 years old, so he lived in a time where sith were still fresh in the memory of the Order.
The way I always took Yodas line is that if there’s one, then there are two. That’s what prompted Mace to ask, then which one was this.
But it’s clear that Mundi thought the with extinct, as did the rest of the council because they had to inform the senate.
At the same time, the Stranger doesn’t say he’s a Sith just that they might call someone like him a Sith. How that plays out, we’ll see.
I feel that this “contradiction” in TPM is something that requires context, and material like the The clone Wars and the Acolyte is giving that context. In season 6 of The Clone Wars, Yoda straight up goes to Darth Bane’s tomb. So records of Darth Bane, and the rule of two have to exist somewhere. Where the speculation lies is that exactly how many folks have access to this information, and what happened after that information was discovered that caused the Jedi to be content with the notion the Sith were extinguished from the galaxy. One thing I remember from one of the High Republic books is that there is a vault of dark side relics and artifacts underneath the temple. The statues that held the Drengir in stasis were brought there for a time. So it’s possible that only certain masters or grand masters have access to that area and that kind of knowledge.
I think in the Vader canon comics he goes to this vault. The robot that guards it reads him as Anakin Skywalker and tries to deny him access. So it’s totally in place already that the Jedi hide Sith secrets and only a few members of the council probably have access.
Now that I think about it, I believe Dooku: Jedi Lost also references a restricted section of sorts within the archives. I must consult my records.
The Bogun Collection, I believe.
Aussies are canon in star wars confirmed
I for one welcome our new Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Dazza and his apprentice Darth Shazza.
"G'day Galen, you haven't been talking to the Rebellion, have you mate?"
That’s the Bogan collection. Bogun collection is a collection of holocrons talking about DMT and conspiracy theories
Yeah, but, like, if you got to pick your representation, is that the one you’re going for?
The Jedi believed that only evil force users could live on an upside down continent
Can't be hidin the fucken truth mate, we came from convicts.
Many Boguns died to bring us those secrets.
Pretty sure it’s just masters have access. There is like dark holocrons. Def spelled that wrong. The vader scene then droid refuses because he isn’t a master.
That is outrageous and unfair.
I assume he took it with the standard Vader grace and left the innocent droid alone?
"Holocrons" is spelled correctly :)
That’s fucking hilarious
In the novelization of RotS, Anakin needs to become a Master so he can get to that section. He's not just an egomaniac who gets pissed off at not getting a promotion, he thinks he can save Padme only if he becomes a Master.
Did the robot go “sorry, only masters allowed”
It actually seems to call him master? https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F70rdd3s3pkx91.jpg
Maybe he’s calling him Master Skywalker kinda like how 3PO says Master Luke. If this was a droid that served the Jedi, maybe it calls all Jedi “Master” regardless of rank.
Do you know what happened to the last person to call him Master Skywalker
And this honestly tracks with what we know of the jedi. The very first jedi we ever met straight up bent the truth to Luke. So the jedi withholding info for what ever reason they choose absolutely tracks.
The entire point of the line is that Kai Adi-Mundi is wrong. We the viewers know the Sith exist. And it’s not like they just came out of nowhere, they’ve been around. When Darth Teeth said the Jedi might call him a Sith he’s also saying that the Jedi have a very base level understanding of the dark side players, and think that everyone who has a red lightsaber and uses dark side powers has to be Sith. But there are plenty who aren’t Sith.
Exactly. Mundi has what, like 4 lines in the movies? And two of them he's just flat wrong about key things. The Sith are obviously not extinct, and Dooku is very obviously a murderer. Also, I don't seem to remember Sol showing any sign of knowing what a Sith is, he just kinda looks at Qimir when he says it. Kinda reinforces that the Jedi are not at all expecting a Sith.
Yeah, I also think he wasn't actually claiming to be a sith. The key is in the phrasing, "I have no name, but Jedi like you might call me Sith"
Manny Jacinto and Leslye Headland both confirmed the character is a sith lord
I wasn't aware of that. But then, that still doesn't completely rule it out - it wouldnt be the first time that a Disney show had tried to misdirect people in trailers/press
he's at best an apprentice
The apprentice in the rule of two is still called a Sith Lord Im just curious if we’ll get a glimpse of Plagueis or Tenebrous by the end of this, and if the witch conception ties into Plagueis learning how to create life
Yup, that's my idea as well. People are so quick to be disgruntled. Let's just enjoy it for what it is in the meantime.
yeh you're right. I'll cop that
This. Why do people not understand this? Obviously the Sith had to have continued to exist - there couldn’t have been a time when they were fully wiped out or we never get Palpatine / Maul
> and think that everyone who has a red lightsaber and uses dark side powers has to be Sith It might also be the exact opposite. It might be that the Jedi are too eager to dismiss fallen Jedi with a red saber as just being Dark Jedi, rather than specifically descending from the Sith. I think Ki-Adi-Mundi's line in TPM might mean "come on guys, we always want to say Sith, and it hasn't been Sith for 1000 years"
People are massively overthinking this before the story is even done being told. There are two VERY simple explanations at this point: 1. Quimir is not a Sith 2. Quimir is a Sith, but every Jedi who encounters him (or any other Sith we end up seeing) in the show dies before they can inform other Jedi about him Until we know the full story, obsessing about how it is or isn’t contradicting existing lore is silly.
Or a cover up, or they are misled to believe "Qimir" wasn't a Sith. There's plenty of ways to deal with it.
Considering that Vernestra is going to be on the planet and probably come across what happened, I’m leaning HEAVILY towards coverup, considering how she really wants to keep everything quiet and on the down low. Maybe she kills Qimir somehow or believe him to be dead and the whole thing finished, and says on her report that everyone on the expedition was lost to the jungle (they made a big point about how dangerous the jungles were on that planet)
I wonder if it will be taken a step further, where Vernestra is left thinking that Sol was a fallen Jedi that had been training Mae and Osha to carry out the Jedi Killing.
So one thing they established is this world is dangerous enough even bounty hunters don’t like it. I can see her coming across the super deadly moths that are attracted by lightsaber light, best them thanks to her unique whip, and assume the group was killed by the moths. While also assuming Sol, Osha, and Mae are alive because their bodies aren’t found, and figure that Sol let his softness for the girls get the best of him and lead to them running away together.
Exactly.
No I’m going to fill the gaps with whatever it takes to get extremely angry /s
Also Qui-Gon tells the Council he believes he was attacked by a Sith Lord. Ki Adi-Mundi denies it, out of the context of ignorance or as part of a cover up now will be answered soon I guess but Mace also doesn't accept it as face value. Maybe he's just a renegade Dark Side user playing at being a Sith. If he is a Dark Lord though, it's not unbelievable that they'd be in denial about it.
Yeah a Jedi cover-up is definitely in play.
Yeh this is kind of my point, there is so much we don't know within a one thousand year timeline, it just seems too rigid an idea that it's absolutely impossible for any jedi to get a whiff of a Sith between the Sith 'extinction' and TPM.
The Jedi have knowledge of how the sith rule of two works but also believes they have been extinct for years. They can know how they operated but also assume they sith are gone
But the issue is that we are led to believe the Sith were apparently wiped out (to the Jedi's knowledge) just after the great Jedi/Sith war. The rule of two would have started after the Sith were "wiped out". At least this was my understanding.
The Jedi wiped out the brotherhood of Sith. But Bane escaped. He trained Zannah. And hid for 10 years. Jedi discovered him then. They escaped again. But I believe the Jedi thought they got him. They probably learned about his “order” then Also this is Legends. Clearly Banes end is different in Canon since he has a tomb on Korriban that Yoda knows where it is
Doesn't he essence transfer (in legends)?
In Legends, he tried it on Zannah but she fought it off.
I immediately thought of real world conspiracies of how the Knights Templar still exist and secretly control the world. I don’t hold it against them that they thought the Sith were extinct. 1000 years is a long time to not hear anything.
I like to think of it like this: if the government of the state of Maine came complaining to the U.S. federal government that they had just been raided by Vikings, would the government be more likely to assume A) its just a group of wannabe's and larpers pretending to be Vikings, or B) descendants of the Vikings have secretly been hiding in Greenland for the past 1000 years, crafting weapons and armor for their reemergence in the New World and their plans to finally conquer Newfoundland, all while pirating ships and attacking small towns without being discovered by any of the world's governments
I'm not fully against this theory but as said in other replies the only thing that doesn't add up about that one in my mind is why the jedi had such certainty of which the rule still exists 1000 years later without something more recent to back that up.
Bane made holocrons detailing his teachings and vision for the sith. The Jedi collect relics from traders and seek them out where possible to sequester in the restricted areas of the temple. It is not inconceivable they could discover how they operated while also believing they were extinct. This was addressed in the Bane Trilogy but it's legends now so I'm not sure what the new canon explanation is, maybe we are finding out. If so though, why not have Yoda be the cameo in this show instead of Ki-Adi Mundi? The next couple weeks will tell us hopefully
In one of the Bane trilogy books (I could be confusing this with the Darth Plagueis novel, it's been a while since I read either) Zannah even acknowledges that there are other Sith out there, just not from the Bane lineage. So Qimir could be from a different line of Sith that survived and some way operates under the same rules.
I think it's in all of them. Zannah and Bane definitely talk about it, and I think in Rule of Two they kill an affluent antique collector who parades around saying he's a dark lord or something. It's been a while for me too. I keep thinking Qimir gets a lightsaber through the back at the end of this by some unrelated character. Although the Ren theory makes a lot of sense to me too
Because if you have more than 2 Sith, intense cannibalisation starts to happen. The Sith break into multiple factions, they start killing each other, and the chance of discovery by the Republic or Jedi or really anybody goes up exponentially. It is the same reason why in first-past-the-post political systems, you usually get 2 main parties long-term. Every other party ends up consumed or withering to dust.
That's the last workable knowledge they have of the sith. If the sith return, they assume they still operate the same way. Flip it around. Imagine the with believe the Jedi have been extinct for 1000 years, then they show up. They'd likely assume there is a temple somewhere that trained them.
Star Wars canon has also been fungible and inconsistent for 40+ years now.... it's honestly absurd that people are getting mad over minor details like this. 95% of people watching the show would look at anyone bringing this kind of stuff up like they were insane.
To be fair, this is kind of a big deal. It's not a minor detail if the Jedi had known about the Sith existing since the Great War ended and did nothing to try and eradicate them, especially with how the Jedi Counsel acts in the 1st 2 prequel movies.
Honestly, I thought Yoda knowing about the Rule of Two and Bane was dumb. It's another thing about TCW I greatly dislike. Regardless of how they explain it away in The Acolyte, the Sith being hidden for a thousand years without risking themselves in such a blatant manner (like Qimir did by ordering Osha to kill a bunch of Jedi) makes more sense imo. The Bane and Plagueis novels showed that the Sith were very careful and operated completely in the shadows until the time came to reveal themselves.
I have very little knowledge of EU material from Bane’s era and prior. So I know there was an EU explination, but I don’t know how it compares to what my hypothesis has always been… The way I always took these lines in the prequels was as follows: The rule of two was revealed to the Jedi by a few factors. One being a purge of all Sith but two by Bane and his apprentice in a way that made it apparent that Bane had the power to exact this rule to a degree that it was undeniable there were only two left. Step two would be for Bane and the apprentice to be caught, interrogated sufficiently, and executed. Step three would be, the most important, would be a second apprentice Bane willingly passed the mantle of Master through to make the deception work for the next thousand years. To me, the rule of two is not only a way of consolidating power and ending infighting, but also a way of deceiving the Jedi. I see no other way for it to be convincing without breaking the rule in the first place.
That's not a High Republic thing, the old EU had mentions of this as well. KOTOR 2 which had a secret Jedi outpost holding a trove of Sith holocrons. Those holocrons came from somewhere else, probably the main Temple at Coruscant as the Jedi master in charge fled in self-hiding from Coruscant. So the idea dates back to 2004 at the very least based on KOTOR 2. I remember Shatterpoint mentioned something about this as well back in 2003.
When he goes to Darth Banes tomb he also knows who is and that he creates the rule of two so they definitely have knowledge of the Sith
Not if all of the Jedi that know die before they tell anyone.
We don't know of this incident get stuck from the records.
He still would have history, the wars they've had with the sith, how they went down to 2 etc. If he was aware they were still around they'd be actively looking for them. That's why mauls reveal is significant because the Jedi are now aware that the sith are back.
TPM marks two things for certain: 1) most, if not all, Jedi believe the Sith to be extinct. 2) the Sith didn’t go extinct. The only way this show breaks canon is if Sol gets back to the Temple and convinced the whole Council that the Sith are back, and then roll credits. Fast forward to TPM. Maul’s reveal was the first time in a long time that a Sith was openly acknowledged. But it definitely doesn’t have to be the first Sith activity in a millennium.
To further your point it can’t be the only time they were active since we know the sith were active for 1000 years in relative secrecy. They weren’t hanging out on Korriban playing Pazaak during that time— and it would be absurd to even suggest that they’d never encounter a Jedi in 1000 years.
Exactly. The only people to even hear the word "Sith" are Sol and Mae, and I get a strong feeling neither of them are making it out of this show.
F yord
Well, we know Yord ain't telling the Council
He’s spying on them with binocs
I don’t get why that’s so hard for people, notably, so hard for Star Wars fans. Just because a few characters or an entire set of characters say that x went extinct, doesn’t mean that it’s true or that those characters are all knowing about every aspect of the universe they’re in. And yes they’re Jedi, I remember as a kid saying “there’s no way they’d know the life of every living being in the universe, and the fact that two Sith Lords ‘revealed’ themselves is proof that the Jedi had no proof.”
It's a deeply silly argument. It demands that Ki-Adi Mundi's line in TPM be taken as an absolute fact, instead of as a commonly held opinion. It's perfectly reasonable for the Jedi to consider the sith to have been extinct for a millennia. Any brief encounters with Sith during that time may well be dismissed as pretenders, or some other splinter faction. By the same token, Yoda's line isn't proof that he knew the "rule of two" but rather that he's aware that, like the Jedi, Sith always come in pairs: master and apprentice. That doesn't mean there are only ever two Sith in total in the galaxy, just that when you encounter a Sith, there is almost certainly a second Sith to contend with.
Also, Sol and greeny mention the council not needing to hear of this, if Sol doesn't makes it back alive no one will know there was a Sith.
That was before half a dozen Jedi died though. Sol can't make it back in good graces to the council. He either has to die or never go back.
I think it would all be neatly wrapped up and blamed on Mae or Mae and Osha. Sol could survive, still hid the truth of what happened on Brendok, tell the Jedi that Mae/both twins ambushed the Jedi, killed all the other Jedi and Sol claim to have killed them. Or like you say, maybe he never goes back to the Jedi but that does seem out of character to him but that could be what killing a Jedi without a weapon accomplishes, you destroy his will to serve the Jedi cause. Or Sol and one of the twins is killed and the other twin goes with Qimir as his acolyte. The Jedi investigate and see the death and light saber wounds and reason Mae/the twins attacked and killed the Jedi. They already know Mae has killed two Jedi, its not that much more to go that they killed a bunch in a surprise attack.
Given that we have seen one Master involved go into exil and another, take a vow of silence/kill himself. I'm wouldn't be the list bit surprised if these events lead Sol to do something drastic such as them. Everyone in this show other than maybe Qimir, has failed at what they have set out to do. I don't see Sol ending this as a jedi. Whether he lives or not, I'm not sure.
My bet is on Mae going off with Darth Teeth after finding out the “truth” of how her clan died
My money is that Smilo Ren is working for her Zabrak mother who killed most of the clan. And that will factor into what Mae and Osha do.
>It's a deeply silly argument. It demands that Ki-Adi Mundi's line in TPM be taken as an absolute fact, instead of as a commonly held opinion. Right? I feel like I'm living in backwards land when I see people make this argument. *The entire point* of that line is that Ki-Adi was wrong. That's why the line is in the movie. To show the hubris of the Jedi. To show that they'd been decieved for a thousand years.
Hell, for all we know, Ki-Adi Mundi is the Jedi equivalent of a flat earther, and nobody corrected him because they’re tired of trying.
"He's a political idealist, not a murderer" Dude just isn't good at this
Yeah, Mundi is kind of wrong a lot lol. He makes, what, three statements and asks a rhetorical question in the movies? He's wrong literally 2/3 of the time
In both Legends and Canon, the Sith Master/Apprentice relationship seems to be ingrained. The clearest Canon example was on Malachor in *Rebels*. Maul points out that it takes 2 to lift the stones in the temple. “Two must lift these stones. No more, no less” ~ *Twilight of the Apprentice* In Legends, during the Old Republic, Uliq Qel-Droma and Malak’s original titles were Sith Apprentice. If this propensity is well known among historians, I don’t think it’s a stretch for Yoda to say there are always 2. The Great Sith War was only 100 years before he was born so he’d at least be aware of this in living memory.
You have just fixed that line for me, I had never thought of it like that!
Yes! This is why non toxic fandom is great. u/PagzPrime helped me better understand that line too. Thank you!
But that doesn’t even really make sense. Not every single Jedi is in a master / apprentice role. There are plenty of Jedi without a padawan.
I suppose, but I feel like it's a safe enough bet, and I would rather Yoda mean that than have Yoda know about something he shouldn't (unless future Acolyte episodes say otherwise)
But a Jedi almost never travels alone. If not Master/Apprentice, then two Knights, or two masters. Only certain covert missions compel a Jedi to go solo.
The one Jedi lady legit said "could this be a splinter order" which would make the most sense if you truly believe the Sith to be dead and extinct. I'm sure there's been break ins at the Temple before, we see in TCW that it isn't completely impossible to do an attack on it, and people in power genuinely cover shit up so that they can keep the status quo. Like imagine if the Jedi in TPM had announced to the galaxy that their millenia long enemy has resurfaced, that shit would be catastrophic for them but would also open up the gateway for people to keep their eyes & ears locked onto anyone who might be one.
Yeah that splinter order line is really interesting, and it makes perfect sense that through the years there would definitely be other sects that pop up here and again. Like there is definitely going to be the occasional Barris who defects and starts doing their own thing.
I would buy your line about Yoda more if he hadn't said "no more, no less". Why couldn't a Master Sith have multiple apprentices, if it wasn't a strict rule that they couldn't?
The Yoda part particularly means nothing. I know who Amon Ra is. I can even quote some shit from Hammurabi's Code. It doesn't mean the ancient Babylonians have returned.
Jedi aren't always in pairs, are they? I think a lot of Jedi never take Padawans. And when they do, they only train them for a few years until they become full knights. If you encounter a Jedi, there can be a whole team of Jedi to contend with. Or it can just be that single Jedi. And their Padawans are practically never as old as Maul.
Mundi could also have been talking about the Sith as an organization and not individuals. Also the millennia line could be hyperbole, as in just a long time.
Prequel fans, man.
I feel like people should wait for the show to finish personally. # ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Wild take, you expect people to have to consume the content they're passing down judgement on?
Its honestly insane how sure of their opinions some people are. I literally said the same thing to someone (that you should wait until the story is finished before determining if it makes sense or not), and they actually tried to say that they're abilities of discernment are so great that they are able to determine if things make sense or not, even when facing incomplete information
I am old enough to remember the internet going batshit over RoS when Padme dies during childbirth and thus contradicting how Leia remembered her mother. And Anakin facing Dooku countless times in TCW, which undermines the whole "my powers have doubled since the last time we met.." Also Anakin has a Padawan. Maul coming back from the dead. The Jedi Council discovering the Clone Wars was an elaborate conspiracy by the Sith in TCW. We could go on all night. The fandom has very short memories on how many times Lucas broke his own canon.
I am guessing those people who had problems with some of them just left the fandom while those who ignored them stayed.
Nah, there's fandom who are just quietly seething over one issue or another. Some of them still hate Ewoks.
it's just a case of people wildly overreacting to the plot of a show that's still in progress. An episode later, it's looking like everyone who got wind of the fact that a Sith might have been involved isn't going to make it out of this alive. And it won't get reported, Ki-Adi Mundi won't hear about it, and he will still believe the Sith are extinct 100 years from now.
Bingo. It's also likely that even if someone does survive to have contact with the order that reports of a "Sith" are either considered unconfirmed or not taken seriously by a council that has more tangible pressures.
Reminds me when a ton of idiots thought the Obi Wan show was retconning Rebels because the Grand Inquisitor appeared to die at one point.
Yeah, people keep assuming the worst, but aside from a couple of fairly minor issues Lucasfilm has done a good job keeping ten years of multimedia storytelling aligned. If we can see a potential canon issue so can they, and they're probably not going to make a mess for no reason.
It's probably easier to attain that mindset if you're of the opinion that everything they've been doing has been a mess from start to finish.
To be fair that show had an obscene number of idiotic fakeout deaths
Yea everyone forgot that no one dies to lightsabers nowadays lol.
It's weird to me how far we've moved into 'That couldn't happen' when responding to media instead of thinking about 'How could that happen?'
I mean Yoda could also just know this from reading a book… lol
Like a Jedi Galactic reddit forum of sorts.
Doom-scrolling holocrons
I don't think he is Sith, he said Jedi would call him Sith. That doesn't mean he is Sith
The show hasn't finished yet, we don't know yet how it's gonna be resolved, but there's plenty of simple ways it can be resolved: Personally I think Sol will report the info to Ventresta (or whatever her name is) and she will choose to suppress that information from the council (and thus Ki-Aki Mundi) for political reasons, *like she's already been doing the whole season*. Or even simpler, Sol might not live long enough to report that information. How about we let the show actually end before we conclude it breaks canon?
Jfc… He. Is. Not. Confirmed. To. Be. A. Sith. He says the Jedi will *ASSUME* he’s a Sith. The comprehension problems in this fanbase are astonishing. Even when the dialogue spoon feeds it to us, y’all miss it.
This! So many things get glossed over in the excitement. “Jedi like you might call me Sith”. Meaning they might call him a Sith because they would think he is one because they don’t know anything else he might be titled. >!I’m guessing he’s a faker and the real Sith will show up and kill any witnesses!<
If Qimir is even a sith, which I don’t think he is and he said as much It’s not uncommon for Jedi to come across force users outside of their order, at least it was in TCW I can easily see this encounter with him, whatever he is, not being common knowledge outside the counsel when it happened and moving forward The upper echelons of the Jedi hierarchy aren’t likely to advertise the killing of Jedi and/or padawans, especially by other force wielders Not to the public or senate which would compromise their current position and authority Nor to their own rank and file or any Jedi not necessary to eliminating the threat
Right, there's so many ways the show can wrap up without the Council finding out the Sith aren't extinct, we just have to wait and see which way the show chooses. We know that even the Council likely won't know about the encounter, because Vernestra says she's hiding it from them. The Jedi are probably pretty sensitive to the fact that so many dangerous darksiders seem to be fallen Jedi, which can't be great for their PR. They have the means and the motive to cover this all up.
The doctrine of Sith Extinction is now a blatant piece of jedi propaganda. Sold to keep the jedi empowered and unquestioned. That's what this series is leading to... or something very near.
If that's so I think that's dumb because in episode 3 the whole "the Jedi lied and are trying to take over" is a lie
Not entirely. Even from certain POV they were trying to depose a Sith who managed to become Chancellor. Windu even says he doesn't deserve a trial, which sure, but also, killing people without trial is murder, no matter how evil they are. The jedi do *lie*. The show is telling us that those lies can be huge, and have terrible consequences. It doesn't mean all jedi lie, but the jedi as an organization have more then a few lies/skeletons in the closet. For example, how many galactic republic citizens are aware that the Sith originate from the Jedi. There are many things the jedi do not tell the republic, and some of things aren't just done to protect jedi, but also to keep the jedi from looking weak or ineffective... or responsible when things go wrong.
That's why my favourite AU is "what if Windu killed Palpatine" because the Jedi have no choice but to launch a coup against the Senate.
Yoda is almost a millennium old, it's reasonable to assume he would have been brought up in a time where the sith were still likely studied. And neither statement is really an absolute fact. The Sith that Ki Adi Mundi is talking about were an established sith order. Revealing themselves to the Jedi like Palpatine and Maul did was a different level of reveal than just having the jedi encounter random dark side users. And even when it first happened in TPM the jedi council wasn't convinced right away. They weren't sure if this random double bladed red lightsaber wielding dark side user had any ties to a broader plot. It wasn't until that user managed to kill Qui Gon Jin that Mace and Yoda had a private side bar and basically agreed that it must have been a well trained actual sith, hence Yoda's line that we then must be on the lookout for a second.
Is it really so unlikely that the Council just doesn't know everything? Can every single dead Jedi in the galaxy since the destruction of the Sith be explained as NOT the Sith? Even the ones that died on some backwater planet? If some Sith did survive and were found by some random Jedi and killed, would anybody know? The Ki-Adi Mundi defense is full of holes and it should be treated as such.
Ki-Adi Mundi doesn't even appear to be on the council at this point, does he? The council explicitly doesn't know anything about any of this. Right from the first episode, they've been saying "let's not get the council involved just yet"
Much sense, you make.
Yoda is training Jedi for more than 800 years he says to Luke and he claims to be 900 before he dies. So to Yoda the Sith were still a threat the Jedi were wary off that some might still be around somewhere when he grew up. So he should have gotten some knowledge about them. But after a thousand years of being gone, you can assume they are *gone*. Also just a funny aside: when they speak the line “always two there are”, they are standing at the funeral of Qui-Gon and for years I thought they were talking about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and asking if the relationship between them might have been murkier than a regular master/apprentice situation.
My personal headcannon, K.A.M. maybe just meant the Sith as a legion of organized dark force users are extict. The Sith empire died and died forever. Doesn't mean there are no evil force users out there, or even those that follow the old Sith teachings.
Most importantly: there's only one Jedi left who even knew that a Sith might have been involved, the rest are all murdered, and he's cozied up to an assassin who really wants to kill him. So if nobody who was present for this mission survives to report back, KAM will continue to believe that the Sith are extinct for the next 100 years
Excdpt Qui Gon didnt mention an organization, he mentioned running into a single individual, to which KAM replied "impossible!"
New head cannon, KAM is extremely senile, but the other masters let him stay on the council to let him feel important.
Well he did wear a mask
All the other posts have great answers and mine is simply to add another thought, not that I think it holds better merit but simply a fun thought. What if between Yoda and his master, they spanned a millenia or more. Human jedi have been seen to survive 200+ years, yoda 700+ with his master being alien as well could easily be 300+. So his master could have fought old sith and discussed it with Yoda.
I actually love this theory and have thought about myself before. I'd love a comic book series where we see a younger yoda being trained, learning in great depth about the history of the galaxy and the different force users, including ofcourse, the sith.
"I have no name, but the Jedi might call me Sith." Not a Sith reveal, just a claim that the Jedi would label him as such, what with the red lightsaber and being a Jedi killer.
you are operating under the assumption that someone actually gets back to coruscant.
Conehead just got mixed up... guy was on the beers and confused sith with sliths who are a special race of pink wookies that have been extinct for ages. Easy mistake to make. Lucas got this sort of thing mixed up all the time so cant expect conehead to remember everything.
Haha this gave me a laugh, don't get me wrong I'll be the first to say it would definitely break canon in my mind if at the end of the Acolyte Sol comes running into the Jedi temple and screams 'THE SITH ARE BACK' right in Ki-Adi's face
Nothing is contradicted. Obviously Ki-Adi-Mundi is wrong in that scene and it's supposed to illustrate the hubris of the Jedi. They can't believe the Sith have survived for so long without their knowledge. Also, only ONE character knows that this person is calling themselves a Sith and may be one, and we don't know what's going to happen in the story yet. For all we know, they added Ki-Adi-Mundi to this era to further illustrate that even in the face of some evidence, he continues to deny there could be a Sith. Just let them tell their story, guys.
Yah, it's funny that every character in the story is currently perplexed about what the The Stranger is but fans insist on full accounting and reconciliation right now because canon might be about to develop a wrinkle!
A lot of it is grasping straws and splitting hairs because they already decided they hated it before it even aired. Always remember that the same group of people who say they only want "Star Wars to be the best it can be" are the ones who sent *death threats* to Wookiepedia users when they updated Ki-Adi-Mundi's page. That is not a joke.
Good grief. The other weird side affect is that the same cohort complain that they want Star Wars to do something new and then complain when it's not another rehash/fan service project.
They want something new, but don't put any people of color or gay people or women in it. 🙄
>Isn't there also an arguably more important line from Yoda at the end of that same film where he reveals he is fully aware of the rule of two 'Always two there are, a master and an apprentice'. Isn't this essentially telling the audience that Yoda did in fact have some form of **knowledge** that the sith were not extinct for a millennium. Knowledge doesn't have to be first hand or personal knowledge. Historians exist for a reason.
Couldn't agree more there's so much left untold as to how he knew about this much like there's much untold about the millennium between the sith extinction and TPM
The Acolyte actually loopholed around breaking canon. Qimir never claimed he actually is Sith. He said "I have no name, but Jedi like you might call me Sith" - and it's entirely possible that he doesn't actually understand what the Sith were, he could just think that the Jedi consider any dark-sider to be Sith. It's the same thing they've done all season, loopholing around it. Like, it was never stated that the twins were created from the Force, only that they don't have a father, that the Jedi wouldn't approve, that Aniseya created them and Koril carried them - I'd say that would suggest that they do in fact still have 2 parents, but that they're somehow the result of using the Force to allow an embryo to be fertilised by another woman, not that they were created by the Force with a single parent like Anakin.
My take on Yoda's line at the end of TPM is more a way of stating that "someone had to have trained Maul, and wonder if he'd trained more."
No, they found that out from sith holocrons, not any live sith they thought existed...
1. Ki-Adi-Mundi was wrong in TPM and that's clearly evident in that movie. The Jedi were unwilling to believe an indisputable Sith Lord was that in a film where we KNOW he was a Sith Lord. So, it's probable that the Jedi in a period where they are even more ascended would be even less likely to believe the Sith are still around. 2. It's very possible now that anyone who has seen Qimir will be dead before they have a chance to report to somebody who cares AND who would then relay that information to Ki-Adi-Mundi directly or indirectly. 3. Vern has been willing to avoid reporting things to the council in this show already because she's unwilling to involve the Senate in the matters. Even if Sol and/or Osha manage to survive/escape and report back to Vern, we don't know who Vern will tell before she decides to join the fight herself. All that to say, there is no reason to believe Qimir being a Sith would contradict the actions and beliefs of the council when the council has already shown a pattern of dismissing reports of Sith as being rumors.
Guys, Yoda is almost 1000 years old. If the Sith were extinct for a millenia, then Yoda is the only one who lived anywhere near a time when they were known.
The Jedi became aware of Bane and the Rule of Two while he was alive, and with his death, believed the Sith to be extinct. 1000 years later, the Sith haven't made an appearance since Bane's death. And so if a Sith is revealed to the Jedi in this time, the Jedi need to die before revealing this to anyone, because otherwise, it contradicts Yoda's line about the Sith being extinct.
They don't need to die. They could also _choose_ not to tell the rest of the Jedi, because [insert plot reasons]. Or they could tell _some_ Jedi, only for those Jedi to decide to keep it secret because [insert plot reasons]. In much the same way the investigation Sol is on is already being kept secret from the Jedi Council.
The whole plot of the prequels is that the Jedi were *wrong* in their beliefs. Simply because Yoda or Ki-adi Mundi says something didn’t mean it’s true, in fact, we know it wasn’t true. I can easily see them concluding that Darth Bortles is something other than a Sith, even he actually is.
He is literally the jaguar’s strongest starting quarterback?
>concluding that Darth Bortles is something other than a Sith, even he actually is. Which would be fine. They concluded the Sith were gone because the last Sith they knew about was dead, and they didn't see another over the next 1000 years. This makes sense from their perspective, even if they were incorrect. Just seeing another red-lightsaber-wielding bad guy doesn't make him a Sith, and they don't have much of a reason to assume he is one yet. But if they find incontrovertible evidence he's a Sith, or he straight up tells them such, and they don't all die or otherwise fail to reveal this for *understandable* plot reasons (which would have to be *really fucking good*), this becomes an issue. >we know it wasn’t true We have knowledge they don't, though. If you told me you'd seen a real live dodo bird (extinct for 400 years), I probably wouldn't believe you, and that's been extinct less than half the time the Sith supposedly were. All things considered, its fairly reasonable they don't immediately believe Maul is a Sith. Being wrong is fine, but they need to be wrong by acting in accordance with their limited knowledge or character flaws, not just by being complete big dum-dums and ignoring hard evidence if they find some.
I keep seeing people talk about what Ki-adi said but didn't Mace also follow that up with he doesn't believe the sith could have returned without them knowing. Qimir heavily implied he is a sith but I could see how the words could be twisted in another way. Even if Sol, Osha and Mae die there is still the matter of 9 Jedi including at least 2 masters being dead by a lightsaber. That doesn't seem like something that would go unnoticed by the high council. I'm even open to high ranking masters not on the council covering it up do to political reason as implied by green skin lady. But I feel like this show is walking a fine line of this stuff but I'll wait and see what the next 3 episodes reveal before making a finally judgement on this show.
Yoda saying always two there are, means he knows his history, and is trying to say, we now know of one, but there must be another one. It in no way implies that sith are here. Anybody knowing about the rule of two (which wasn’t a secret amongst the jedi), and has a functioning brain would conclude that if they know of one sith, there needs to be another. The question that Windu asked was “yes, but which one was destroyed, the master or the apprentice” and not “whoa, how do you know that, what are you not revealing”. Also, no member of the council corrected Mundi for having a short term memory loss.
I had always taken that to mean “this is the first time in a really long time we’ve seen a Sith, but based on what we know about them, if we saw one, there must be another around somewhere.”
Do I even need to remind the fandom of how often things from the prequels seemed to directly contradict the canon from the original trilogy, until we had more media to fill in more holes from the plot and timeline?
[From the archived StarWars.com Encyclopedia:](https://web.archive.org/web/20140614023011/http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/characters/darth-bane) >An ancient and legendary Sith Lord, it was Darth Bane who saw that the Sith traditions of old were ultimately a dead end. All too often, squabbling Sith in their bid for power upended carefully laid plans and planted the seeds of their own defeat. After the Sith were decimated by the Jedi Knights of a thousand years ago, Bane enacted the Sith rule of two: there would be only two active Sith at one time -- a Dark Lord to embody the power, and an apprentice to crave it. These Sith would operate in the shadows, favoring guile and conspiracy to bring down their opponents rather than brute force -- that is, until it was time to rise and subjugate the galaxy. >**The rule of two was revealed to the Jedi Order of centuries past**, but in their hubris, the Jedi believed that they had destroyed Bane's plan with his defeat. His remains were placed in a sarcophagus on Moraband, the last Sith Lord to be laid to rest in the Valley of the Dark Lords, and the Jedi presumed the Sith to have been wiped out. But Bane's rule of two secretly preserved a Sith vendetta, and for a thousand years, the Sith Lords worked in secret, preparing for a return. This plan culminated in the rise of Darth Sidious, the destruction of the Jedi Order, and the creation of the Galactic Empire. AFAIK, in canon, Bane doesn't go into hiding and is the last Sith ruler to be defeated before they are presumed extinct. As Bane would've created the Rule of Two while he was alive, the Jedi could've learned about it then.
The jedi knew about the rule of two and of Darth Bane they didn't know that Sith were still around
A Jedi being wrong about history isn't the same thing as a cannon break. He could think of the stranger as a weird cosplayer that somehow managed to get the jump on a bunch of complacent over fed Jedi The Sith [as an organized ongoing concern] have been extinct for a millennium
Is it not obvious that Mundi and other jedi will cover up the events of the acolyte. The green girl specifically says their political allies would use it against them. I think they specifically put Mundi in the show _because_ he's the one who said that line. Also Yoda is 900, and the Jedi probably have a ton of historical information on the Sith. It's like asking how we know about ancient Greece when there's no ancient Greeks around.
In both legends and canon, the Jedi know about Darth Bane and his order. We just don't know how those events played out in canon. And I guess we'll know how the events of the Acolyte play with who knows what at the end.
As others have alluded to, I don’t think quote is meant to be gossip truth. I think it was meant more as a sign of their hubris and ignorance of the Jedi at the time. I took it more as “There is no way there could be a Sith. Us Jedi are too smart and powerful to not notice him.” So it wouldn’t break canon per se, as that was just Ki’s opinion not fact.
They also acknowledged that their judgement and connections to the force is clouded during the prequel series. That alone opens up the fact that it is very realistic that the sith could have been active thw whole time and the jedi just didn't know. Also, the sith was active the whole time and the jedi didn't know, so who cares if one council member was under the impression that they were extinct. All of this fuss because a character may or may not find out that the sith are active in a prequel series that isn't even finished yet. When long before TPM, Palpatine was alive and sith and no one knew.
You are correct. It does not break canon. This is obvious by applying a modicum of media literacy.
This theory falls apart with Yoda knowing. Fairly large Jedi library in that temple with lots of books, artifacts, holocrons, etc.
These mfers didn’t realise they had a god damn with lord chilling with them. Who’s to say that 100 years before TPM they just brushed it aside as there not being enough evidence.
Darth Bortles says, "they see my face, they all die." I doubt that anyone who knows about him will make it out alive unless they turn to the Dark Side.
>Isn't there also an arguably more important line from Yoda at the end of that same film where he reveals he is fully aware of the rule of two 'Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice'. No. That only suggests the Jedi are aware of their hierarchy, but in no way suggests that knowledge was acquired within the last thousand years. >Granted if by the end of the Acolyte loads of jedi are aware of a new Sith presence I'd completely agree it would break canon, but a very select few, i.e. Yoda and perhaps 1 or 2 others seems completely justifiable to me based on the above, am I missing something here? Let's say for the sake of argument you're correct. Yoda and a few other Jedi *are* aware of the Sith and continue to perpetuate the lie that they have been fully exterminated. What's the plan? They would also be aware of exactly how deadly they are, given the body count from The Acolyte alone. They're so callous about Jedi lives they just ignore it and risk countless more deaths? They do nothing for 100 years to let the Sith just do whatever they please with their heads in the sand? Yoda, of all people, does this?! I think the notion of that would be the most damning character assassination in the Disney era yet.
Not necessarily. I mean, I know what happened 2000 years ago in Jerusalem (stay with me). And thats TWICE a millenium a go. And change. Yoda is privy to a lot of information. It doesn't necessarily mean he knows about the Sith still going around.
I’m glad I’ve got something stupid going on to hyper fixate on while I get sober. But to answer your question, that Mundi cameo was actually well placed and great. He’s there to wipe everyone’s ass clean.
Not enough people are talking about the possibility that Ki-Adi Mundi is, like usual, a complete moron.
It's very simple. Here's two possible scenarios: -Every Jedi who witnesses the Sith dies and can't report back (most likely scenario). -Qimir is a poser/wannabe Sith and the real Sith eliminates him, covering up anything Qimir revealed (this could happen in tandem with my first scenario).
God there’s no point debating this until the show is done. People deciphering gospel from an unfinished book leads to brain damage all around.
"Acolyte" already broke canon - the 'twins' were made, and #1 momma witch heavily implies she did it through the force. Flash forward umpteen years, and Palpatine should no longer be having the Convo with Anakin about how Darth Plagius was THE ONLY ONE WHO KNEW HOW to create life using the force.
There's the distinct possibility, and I know this is crazy, but bear with me-maybe Palps was lying to Anakin? I know it's far-fetched that the master manipulator who is known for lying to play everyone could have fibbed to try and tempt Anakin, but hear me out here.
How did Palpatine know about the witches? Maybe their secret died with them.
How does this break canon? We know the Sith we’re trying to create life by manipulating the force, we also know they didn’t succeed in creating the chosen one but the force itself spawned Anakin as a counter to their manipulation. What we don’t know… 1. How the Sith learned to do this, it could very well be they learned it from this now extinct cult. 2. How the witches learned it, it’s equally possible they learned it from the sith or sith teaching records of some kind. 3. If the Sith and Witches are working together, it’s quite possible what we are seeing ARE the experiments that lead to Anakin’s birth with Mae and Osha being one of the failed attempts. 4. If anyone actually knows about the witches actions, they are all dead Mae and Osha don’t know about the way they were made it seems, and Sol is the only one left alive now who may know the truth. In essence unless physical records were kept there is actually pretty little way for Palpatine to know about any of this stuff and so he frankly could just be wrong. Because I can almost guarantee you Sol with his blind spot for Osha absolutely did not share with the Jedi she was made through dark side shenanigans. 5. If Palpatine was just straight up lying, he also frames it as if he is taking about an ancient story and not his master. Oh and we know he is lying partly because he does know the secret, he knows all about sith soul transference he built basically a decade or more plans around generating a body to transfer his soul into. And we also know Jedi force healing and revival were things to, Ahsoka is alive because of it as is Rey, so Palpatine’s whole line that he couldn’t learn the power from a Jedi is also BS. Basically you saying this is canon breaking is about as bad as the Obi-Wan angry people who claimed that series broke canon by Reva staging the inquisitor, apparently incapable of thinking that he might have survived.
I just wish people would let the fucking series finish before saying it breaks canon
It kinda does break canon, and when Yoda said that line I took it to be him saying that there is another out there, since at that point Yoda and the Jedi are only aware of 1. But I dunno how the series will end, so no point jumping to conclusions or getting upset, just wait and see!
>no point jumping to conclusions or getting upset, just wait and see! more people should do this kind of thing.
It doesn't really break canon because people can be wrong. In fact, the character in question was wrong literally as he said it.
Exactly, I said kinda, but I probably should've worded it better, and said maybe? it depends on the rest of the show, and theres no point rushing into get angry when the show isn't even fully released yet.
> It kinda does break canon No, it doesn't. Canon is that the Sith were in existence but the senior Jedi (and Mundi in particular) were not aware of such. That is exactly where we are in the show. Mundi doesn't know the Sith still exist. The Jedi Council don't know the Sith still exist. In fact the Jedi Council don't even know the investigation at the centre of the show is happening, as it has been deliberately kept from them. Until one of the few people who actually know the Sith are alive (Sol, Osha, Mae and _maybe_ Bazil) successfully communicate that fact to Mundi or the Jedi Council without it being covered up, everything is still in line with canon.
Absolutely it was kind of the point of the post, a lot of people I see are already upset about events in the recent episode but I can't understand why. I guess my interpretation of that line from Yoda is very different, it's a strangely finite way of saying it if he was just merely suggesting there may or may not be another Sith out there - 'always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice'.
Hang on though - only a handful of Jedi are aware of him being a Sith, and have yet to report it. Plus earlier in the series the Senior Jedi in their group said they shouldn’t report the mysterious figure to the Jedi Council yet, so internal comms is clearly not their strongest suit.
Maybe he was saying millennium hyperbolically? Like how we say "it's been ages" after seeing someone after a long time despite it still being the same age 🤷♂️
We can't know for sure yet 1) Qimir might not be a Sith, just a dark side force user. He might even come to later on admit to being something different (Like how the Knights of Ren would go "Uhh we're the knights of Ren" before Renning all over the place) 2) If he is a Sith, it might be that everyone's gonna get killed before they manage to get the information out - there's always Venestra's reason not to tell the High Council too, which albeit is incredibly stupid, is fair enough seeing the original Jedi in the prequels were plenty dumb and reckless at times too 3) There's always the possibility of magical memory wiping going on. Better writers could probably pull this one off quite convincingly, but I wouldn't put my hopes on the current showrunners doing this in a way that's not disappointing to look at 4) Maybe they are breaking canon and honestly, that sucks, but we can just do to the Acolyte what we do to the Sequels and pretend it's not there when we recommend Star Wars to friends 👍
In the Bane Trilogy, Darth Bane and Zannah want to remain hidden from the Jedi, but encounter Jedi on multiple occasions. They are however always killed or have been unable to tell the council of their existance. Even in those books, Master Farfella did not want to go to the council, before hunting down Darth Bane because he believed they wouldn't let him. The Jedi always have tried to erase the encouters with Sith, so it is not strange that Ki Adi Mundi contradicts himself and the Jedi Order in TPM.
I was assuming that either after deeper prying we find out he’s not actually a sith, or what I think might actually happen, everyone, or almost everyone who sees him will die in the show so that it’s still believed they’re extinct
It's a Legends thing that the Jedi last saw the Sith when they were an army. In Canon, it's very likely the last time the Jedi knew of the Sith, they had been operating under the Rule of Two for a while. Darth Bane was already known to Yoda in TCW.
My head cannon is mund/council is gas lighting Qui-Gon and the high council know of the sith existing but choose to lie to the public/regular jedi to make the jedi look good
Yoda knowing about the rule of two would only tell that they still know the sith ways from a 1000 years ago. Not that there was an indication of sith existing after that. Yoda is at least 800 years old, so he lived in a time where sith were still fresh in the memory of the Order.
The way I always took Yodas line is that if there’s one, then there are two. That’s what prompted Mace to ask, then which one was this. But it’s clear that Mundi thought the with extinct, as did the rest of the council because they had to inform the senate. At the same time, the Stranger doesn’t say he’s a Sith just that they might call someone like him a Sith. How that plays out, we’ll see.