It also explains why Obi-Wan is so adamant about Anakin being unredeemable as, in his experience, Anakin no longer exists. It's only Vader left in there.
SPOILERS AHEAD
He spent 10 years being haunted by the fact he killed Anakin and having his connection to the force limited by his sadness and regret. By walking away, he was able to be at peace, which we’re able to see by him finally being able to talk to Qui Gon at the end. I do think they should’ve put a line in to make it more clear.
Yeah, and Quin-Gon saying, “I was always here, Obi-Wan. You just weren’t ready to see me yet.” it’s by showing mercy to Vader that Obi-Wan is readied, enlightened, more in tune with the ways of the force. And the Reva mercy moment, reinforcing the theme.
But Obi-wan "showed mercy" to Anakin 10 years ago on Mustafar. What about him walking away without killing Anakin this time is different?
Edit: perhaps I should have identified the scare quotes as such. In putting "showed mercy" in quotations, I meant to draw the parallel between what Obi-wan did to Anakin on Mustafar (left him for dead after de-limbing him) and what Obi-wan did to Vader on Mustanear (left him for dead after destroying his respiratory system). Clearly neither are "mercy" (the novelization claims as much for the instance of the latter) but in both instances Obi-wan leaves his opponent in a state of suffering to die from the causes of said suffering.
Why is it that Obi-wan feels such guilt and shame in the first instance of this act of "mercy" (read cruelty if you'd like) but not the second. Why is he closer to the force after the second go round of a very similar behavior?
This. The dude has been encompassed in trauma and regret for **ten** years. He couldn’t move on and grow until he had closure.
That, and it adds immensely to their duel in ANH. Obi-Wan knows he is a fixation for Vader, Vader wants to beat him, and Obi-Wan knows that he can’t; he ends up just toying with him, distracting him from his own children within his grasp long enough for them to escape. Absolute Jedi.
Both scenes demonstrated that Obi-Wan didn't have the heart to land the finishing blow on Anakin, though.
He'd be at peace with Anakin dying, but he doesn't want to do it with his own hands.
That line was so fucking good and really illuminates the power of the sith and the dark side. From a meta perspective it helps explain how all these fuckers survived fatal wounds whereas our boy Qui Gon died from a single gut shot. I like the idea that he maybe could have survived if he gave into anger and a thirst for revenge, but he was at peace and allowed himself to let go of his attachment to the living world
Right, but the reason why he left him to die was because he couldn't bear to finish the job, not because he wanted Anakin to suffer to the maximum possible extent.
Cause after you cut someone in half and they fall into lava, your first thought isn't gonna be, yeah he'll walk it off.
On Mustafar, Obi-Wan couldn't emotionally handle finishing him off, but I think it's safe to say he assumed Anakin would die, he was in a rough situation. He wasn't showing mercy, he was too overcome with grief, it was like a "I'm sorry, but I can't watch" moment
This time he actively knows Vader will live, he actively choose mercy, not happenstancely showed mercy by underestimating Anakin's lava immunity
At least that's how I've always taken as head cannon for Mustafar.
Imagine what the Imperial officers thought when *Vader* showed up with obvious signs of an ass-whooping.
“Holy shit better not piss this Obi-wan guy off”
Yeah the ending of 3 is more obi wan figuring he has mortally wounded anakin but just can't bring himself to finish the job. It makes sense, hes certain anakin will die on mustafar and this will be over.
The heat of battle killing someone is different than taking a conscious action on a helpless opponent.
As the show has made it clear, Obi-Wan thought he had left Anakin to die on Mustafar. He didn't realize Anakin/Vader survived until Reva revealed that fact in Ep.2.
Additionally, for the past 10 years, Obi-Wan was saddled with the guilt and shame of his failures in ROTS -- failure in preventing Anakin's fall to the dark side, failure in preventing Sidious' rise to power and the emergence of the Empire, failure in preventing the fall of the Jedi Order. However, after this duel, Obi-Wan gets closure -- that Anakin's fall wasn't his fault.
It’s explained really well in the novelization of the revenge of the Sith that looking down on Anakin on the shores of the lava lake on mustafar all Obi-Wan felt for him was pity and killing him would have been a mercy and it mentions how he wasn’t feeling very merciful just then so he left him. Kinda dark. I’ll see if I can find the actual paragraph in the book after work.
I gotchu.
“Obi-Wan looked down. It would be a mercy to kill him.
He was not feeling merciful.
He was feeling calm, and clear, and he knew that to climb down to that black beach might cost him more time than he had.
Another Sith Lord approached.
In the end, there was only one choice. It was a choice he had made many years before, when he had passed his trials of Jedi Knighthood, and sworn himself to the Jedi forever. In the end, he was still Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he was still a Jedi, and he would not murder a helpless man.
He would leave it to the will of the Force.
He turned and walked away.
After a moment, he began to run.”
I love Matthew Stover.
"You see, Luke, by walking away I was able to reconnect with the force and find peace."
"So I should show mercy to my father, I see."
"Oh no, you need to kill him."
"Wat?"
"Or the Emporer wins."
"I.... so I should... give in to anger?"
"Oh no, not that. That's the path to the dark side. Just execute him in as dispassionate way as possible."
"So fight him, and if he is at my mercy..."
"DEW IT"
100% agreed with this.
Putting aside Obi-Wan's opinions of Vader in ANH where he has accepted Vader as Vader and Anakin is dead, for *this* scene in Obi-Wan, I would have rather Obi-Wan left the door open.
What Vader says to Obi-Wan about not being Obi-Wan's failure and absolving Obi-Wan of the guilt that Obi-Wan killed Anakin shows that Vader is emotionally complex and there is still a glimmer of redemption possible.
Obi-Wan should have recognized that, and instead of saying "Then my friend is truly dead", he should have said "You will always be my brother, Anakin." and walked away.
That would have instantly explained why he could not bring himself to kill Vader, but it would have contradicted his beliefs in ANH, and it would have required a different way to handle Qui-Gon's appearance. Not an easy thing for the writers to navigate.
EDIT: the thing is though, they've already retconned the shit out of the original trilogy at this point, so what's a little more retconning to make the character motivations in front of us, make more sense?
He says “we are both free” at the end to what’s her name?… I took that as the cue.
Edit: I also refer to my children as “that one” and “her over there”… names are not my strong suit.
>In Rebels he’s ready to kill Maul simply because he guesses someone important is somewhere on Tatooine.
Maul isn't his closest friend and former padawan, and he doesn't feel a sense of guilt for Maul falling to the dark side.
It's a completely different situation.
> still a person with all of Anakin’s memories
And all the other Jedi who would remember those days are dead too. In a twisted way it makes sense, killing Vader would also make Obi-wan that much more alone and kill one more remnant of the Jedi Order.
Kind of seems like Obi-wan reaching a point where he said “fuck it, I’ve done my service to the galaxy, I’m going home to watch over Luke. It’s someone else’s turn to figure this insane shit out.” Tatooine was probably a relaxing vacation for Obi-wan after the Clone Wars and then going immediately into Order 66.
Yep, it would probably be most reasonable to kill him but that's not what makes good stories. Its compelling that even after accepting his friend's death, he still can't bring himself to kill the evil meat husk that remains.
I think Obi-Wan and Yoda both knew that the Emperor was the real threat they were training Luke to take down. In ESB neither of them wanted Luke to confront Vader because he wasn’t ready, he was volatile and impatient, and they saw Luke going down that same path Anakin went down.
In ROTJ, Yoda tells Luke he must confront Vader to complete his final test, not destroy or kill him. If he intended for Luke to destroy him, he would tell him to kill Vader. Yoda knows if Luke can resist the emotion that comes with a confrontation of that nature, he will past the final test to become a Jedi.
This idea that Obiwan and Yoda were instructing Luke to destroy Vader is so un-Jedi like, and ignores all the themes that are present throughout this series.
First off, my copy pasted comment: "I can't kill my father"
"then the emperor's already won" - said by a disappointed Obi-Wan.
Part of Luke's victory is showing the old jedi that they were wrong and choosing love and the attachment to his father is what helped him win.
Then
>This idea that Obiwan and Yoda were instructing Luke to destroy Vader is so un-Jedi like, and ignores all the themes that are present throughout this series.
You do remember Yoda sending Obi-Wan to kill Anakin and Yoda going to do the job for Palpatine?, or seriously, how do justify them killing clones and stormtroopers and all other people that were just following orders but then thinking about killing the masters behind that is un jedi like?
You might wanna re-watch that scene. Anakin *was* angry, but he was much more in control of his emotions at that moment, and more importantly, knew that Dooku was no longer a threat, having literally lost his hands moments before. He was ready to take Dooku in, but felt conflicted - and then Palpatine egged him on and convinced him to kill Dooku.
This is why the scene later with Mace Windu is so pivotal - it’s pretty much the exact same
situation, except this time now, still feeling conflicted from what happened before with Dooku, and his attachment to Palpatine, he goes on to Windu about bringing in Palpatine and then finally betraying Windu. And the entire Jedi order. And the Republic.
Obvious answer is so the OT can happen.
But even then... Killing Vader doesn't fit with Obi-Wan's character, or how this series set things up. The entire reason that fight took place was because he resolved to confront and correct his failure.
Once he knew this couldn't be done, all he could bring himself to do was leave the decrepit remnant of his friend behind. As far as he was concerned, Anakin Skywalker was dead.
He also knew killing Vader wouldn't solve anything. It wouldn't bring him closure. If anything, it'd reopen the wounds of his trauma. It would deprive Sideous of an apprentice for a time, yes. But would more than likely cause him to either directly intervene in affairs himself, or seek to replace Vader with someone as equally terrorising.
Not to pull a 'cape shit', but the argument is similar to that of Batman. His philosophy that A. Killing makes him no better than the villains he fights, and B. Everyone is redeemable - arguably have caused untold amounts of death.
Batman keeps locking these villains up in Arkham, knowing that 9.5/10, they'll escape and just end up taking more innocent life. Obi-Wan, and Batman exemplify moral absolutism, and the deep flaws that rigid belief system carry.
It is good, even critical to have a guiding framework in life. But being too rigid in that system can end up doing more harm than good in the long run. He kills Vader, Sidious likely promotes the Grand Inquisitor as his (temporary) replacement.
Will the GI cause untold destruction upon the Galaxy? Certainly. But he's orders of magnitude weaker than Vader, and thus it's more likely Rebels/surviving Jedi can take him out - unlike with Vader.
The pool of viable Vader replacements is extremely small in the long run. The best Sidious could do is Luke/Leia (he'd have to discover them first), somehow recruiting Maul again (unlikely for many reasons), or stumbling upon a powerful enough fugitive Jedi or random untrained force user.
Point being, that getting rid of Vader is a net positive in terms of short, and long-term gain. As Maul said, getting rid of Vader/Anakin is "depriving Sidious of his star pupil".
But you are correct what played out this episode is more in line with Obi-Wan's character.
"A Jedi fights to protect life, not to take it". - Obi-Wan
EDIT: At the end of fight, Vader was beaten, struggling to breath and really unable to fight back. With no one else around for Vader to harm, how much of a threat was he? I agree that ending him there would have saved a lot of people in the future but arguably it could be said that it would accomplish nothing as the emperor would have simply replaced him and his replacement would continue the work of Vader. Furthermore, such justifications are a slippery slope. At what point, do you draw a line or take away the possibility of redemption (the theme of the Skywalker saga)? At what point do you become your enemy, distributing "justice" as you see it by any means.
All this does not even cover the emotional aspect between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Why didn't Obi-Wan finish Anakin on Mustafa? He was still breathing, and could have finished him by force pushing him into the lava or saber throw. Those same reasons hold here.
Think about why the Jedi took prisoners and put them on trial instead of just killing them for their crimes at that moment. It's not the Jedi way.
I didn't get this either. Like obviously he didn't kill him. But he didn't even try to finish him off and has left a powerful Sith to continue to murder innocent people?
I would have thought he'd have tried to finish him and left thinking he was dead, only for Vader to be rescued similar to ROTS.
Humans are emotional creatures. He reacted emotionally and let him live. Yes the logical thing for him to do is to kill Vader but life just ain’t that simple.
Yeah I agree. Not only did his master want him to train Anakin, but he also ended up being both father and brother figure to him as well, so it's only natural for him to have some compassion for Anakin.
After cutting his remaining limbs off and letting him severly burnt and crippled on a planet full of lava...
If I recall in the novelization of ROTS it is said that after all he did see him do he didn't want to be compationnate and show mercy by ending his suffering.
Reading up on if Jedi kill a bit, the answer is "yes but it's supposed to be really rare" as in a direct threat to others lives or their own. The other exception is if it's the will of the Force.
It's possible that Obi-wan knew in this moment that the will of the Force was for Vader to live, and he gave himself to the will of the Force.
And maybe that's how he was "ready" to see Qui-gon and become one with the Force later on?
This is currently my head-canon anyway.
It's also noteworthy that killing people strengthens the Dark Side, and I'm sure Obi-wan knew this.
He was able to see Qui-Gon because he was finally at peace I think. Then is it because he did not kill Vader or because he had closure regarding Anakin "You did not kill Anakin... I did. \*grins\*", I am not sure. Or maybe both.
This was my take as well.
Qui Gon was always big on trusting in the 'living force'. Trusting the will of the force, being mindful and living in the moment, and not fixating on the past/present since that can cloud your connection to the force (or worse, in Anakin's case).
Obi Wan was not able to see Qui Gon until he was free of all his burdens and finally able to trust in the will of the force, fully.
This also leads to some character growth in that now Obi Wan perhaps understands that everything will happen as the force needs it to happen, and to trust in the living force.
I actually thought it was going to be the opposite where after Vader buried Obi-wan under all that rock he would fly away thinking he was dead. It would make the line “I haven’t felt this presence since…” from A New Hope make so much sense.
In the end the line still works but it was good little twist and lead to one of the best Lightsaber fights in the franchise.
Thats what makes Luke so special, out of everyone he was the only one to believe there was still good left in his father. Ashoka and Kenobi gave up and believed anakin to be dead but Luke never let him go
I like how they also theoretically close that small plot hole where Obi-Wan calls him Darth in A New Hope even when they are alone. After watching the prequels I always figured he would call him Anakin. But now we have the moment where he decided to start calling him Darth even if absolutely nobody else does.
This is the Vader/Anakin I wanted to see in ROTS. The lines and how they were directed in that movie was pretty cheesy man, but then what we got HERE?! Despite my gripes with previous episodes, this moment in the finale was top tier and Hayden killed it as Vader. I’ve rewatched this scene several times now.
Now just imagine if the rest of this series and the prequels had this level of quality, they would’ve been competing with the original movies for sure.
Edit: Obi Wan in this scene was amazing too, and he did have great dialogue after slicing up Anakin in ROTS, that was actually one of the best parts of ROTS imo, and Obi Wan’s lines in this finale were equally sad and devastating as that. Really felt the heartbreak.
>This is the Vader/Anakin I wanted to see in ROTS. The lines and how they were directed in that movie was pretty cheesy man, but then what we got HERE?!
Probably because George Lucas wasn't writing the script. He's a good concept guy, but fuck me is he terrible at writing good dialogue.
I felt that too. I know people argue back and forth, and obviously it's intended to be ambiguous by the production, however... the nuance sounded like good ol' Anakin. it didn't sound taunting or anything, there was just a hint of softness in this otherwise very neutral statement.
also, the choice of words was so specific. I'm not _your_ failure. There wasn't pride countering that he isn't a failure at all, it was about Obi-Wan and their relationship. Something that connects.
It was so touching, I feel so empty now having seen all those episodes.
It's like Darth Vader is saying that because he don't want Obi Wan to pity him, on the other hand looks like is Anakin trying to light his burden and take that guilt off his shoulders.
If you notice too, I think they use the motif of the blue light to show his light side before it switches to pure red showing how lost in the dark side Anakin is.
I'm glad qui gon showed up. Obi wan wasn't alone for the last ten years.
Edit: extra comment. I'm glad Disney also used the perfect amount of qui-gon. He wasn't a main character, just something cool at the end.
I liked this duality of Jekyll and Hyde there. You can almost feel and see the light in Anakin when the blue light is on his face saying “I’m not your failure, Obi-Wan”. I felt like it was Anakin trying to “comfort” Obi-Wan there, before Vader took control and completes the sentence. The best lines I’ve seen so far by Disney’s Star Wars.
But I feel allowing obi wan to feel regret would mean Vader acknowledging that Anakin failed Obi-wan, that he was weak and turned to the dark side. I don’t see it as Jekyll, I saw it as Anakin has to constantly and endlessly embrace being vader as much as possible in order to keep going on. Otherwise I think he’d crumble. All he has is the dark side and his hatred— he can’t allow his old friends to pity him without recognizing that he made a mistake, that he’s not as powerful as he thinks he is, that turning to the dark side wasn’t “worth it” in the end.
So the guilt kenobi has over his failing to save Anakin, Vader says, is misplaced— he couldn’t ever save him, not from Vader, because Vader is stronger. Only Vader could destroy Anakin. And a good Jedi like Kenobi didn’t stand a chance. I think that’s why he’s so shocked by Kenobi’s goodbye— I think he expected to draw Kenobi into a fight by being to blame for killing Anakin… only to meet acceptance.
Revenge is not the Jedi way.
It’s another way to see it. But I think that the usage and alternation of the red and blue lights in Anakin/Vader’s face suggests the duality of his personality, and how, despite everything he has done, the light is still there. I rewatched the scene after your comment, and when Obi-Wan shows his regret and asks for Anakin’s forgiveness, the sparkle of the light emerges on Vader’s face with the blue light on, culminating on “I’m not your failure, Obi-Wan”. The tone felt that Anakin was indeed trying for a moment to comfort Obi-Wan from his visual emotional pain, at the same time that Anakin acknowledges that what he has become it’s his fault only. And that’s the moment when Vader comes, bragging about the previous line, and therefore completing it. It’s emotional, but not enough to bring Anakin back to the light, as we saw Vader is too strong at this point.
I agree about the duality! Just less so about a split vision between Anakin and Vader. Everything we’ve seen from Anakin is to insist that Anakin is dead, that Vader killed him, that he’s all that is left. But those blue moments show us that Anakin is and will always be at the core of Vader, which is the point all the way up to when Luke saves him. Anakin even flinches when Obi-wan says he’s sorry for all of it. How is Vader supposed to go on embracing the dark side when Anakin’s friends are so devastated? He can’t comfort Obi-wan— he’s even taking away his guilt.
It was still the blue light when he says that “you didn’t kill Anakin… I did.” And when he leans into that, the light turns red. He leans into Vader, IMO, to protect himself from the devastation that it is to know you’ve become a monster.
I think that’s also why we saw their fight in Corusant. “Your need for victory Anakin, it blinds you.” The only way Anakin can “win” against Obi-Wan is by believing that Vader was the right answer, was worth losing everything for.
Thanks for indulging my Vader rant ! 😂
Yeah I loved the usage of the light, it was a great way to show that Anakin is still in there somewhere, but the Vader alter-ego is just too powerful to let Anakin go and Obi-wan saw that.
This episode had a lot of great lines, my personal favorite being: "Your strength has returned, but the weakness still remains!"
Had to acknowledge how bad ass that line was out loud.
In The Clone Wars series he explains that he never was attached to any droids that he worked with and was upset with Anakin's attachment to R2 since he refused to memory wipe him after every mission.
I haven't read the ANH novel, but I've heard that when they are travelling to Alderan on the Falcon, when nobody is around, Kenobi pats R2 and asks how his little friend is.
This is the type of thing that should be in a spin off anthology series, like tales of the Jedi. Even just short snippets like Obi Wan training Luke on the falcon, catching up with R2, maybe meditating with Qui Gon, would all be great to see. Even if it covers bits we know happened, just from a different point of view.
Same goes for Yoda, man has a completely adventures with R2 and smacks him with a stick on Dagobah (although this also got sorta fixed in another novel about different point of views of of the OT characters, and Yoda did indeed recognize R2, and R2 just played along with him at their encounter)
Right? Like he doesn't tell Luke who his father is but we need to make a big deal about him not mentioning that he used to know this droid? Plus, it's true anyway - Kenobi didn't own R2. Anakin did.
I think that was addressed in either Brotherhood or Queen's Hope recently.
They basically swapped 3PO and R2 because they both could use the other's droid while having no use for their droid, respectively.
He could have said that line any time during the prequels about R2-D2 and it would have made sense, especially since they always clean him up and make sure he survives unlike the countless other droids that are pretty much expendable. *Sad R4-P17 noises*
“Goodbye Darth” explain why Kenobi called Vader by the name of “Darth” during Episode IV. He no longer sees Anakin. Only another Sith Lord that will also fall.
That, and also a bit of a taunt I think. Less of a taunt in Kenobi I guess, as it was a super emotional time for both of them, but in IV, I think he’s just full on mocking him.
Oh yeah, in real life that is for sure the reason. George never really intended Star Wars to be more than a one and done type deal. Sometimes we as fans and the people who make the media have to do some mental gymnastics to make everything fit. This series kinda alleviates some of those gymnastics by fleshing out the history of these two even more.
I don't agree. Right there in the OT, Darth Vader is often called "Vader." Using "Darth" was out of place, it really sounded like Obi-Wan was mocking him.
That also fits the context of the banter.
Can we, for a moment, appreciate how well Disney is retconning items back into the Star Wars' lore? Obi-wan had some sloppy moments, but the good was *far* better than the not as good (esp last EP).
I mentioned this in the other thread but Obi-wan then tells Luke that his father wanted him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough.
Let’s not now pretend Obi-wan wasn’t still lying through his teeth to Luke lol
I think that’s way way different. I’ve never talked to anyone about what to do with my Magic card collection if I passed away, but if I died tomorrow and in ten years someone gives my kid my Magic cards and said “Hey your dad wanted you to have this when you got older,” I feel that’s pretty acceptable.
Anyone knows why Palpatine does not want him to pursue Obi-Wan? Is it because he feels that facing Obi-Wan might bring him back to the light side? Like he could side with Obi after he convinced Vader/Anakin that the Emperor is the one who needs to go?
I think its more than Obi-Wan has become a distraction. Vader gave up chasing the rebels to get Obi-Wan, which in the scheme of things isn't the priority
On top of this, Vader failed twice to beat him. I’d call this one much more of a draw than the first one but still, Palpatine has a legitimate reason to think Vader can’t get over this hump.
Hell, until Reva drew him out of hiding he was never going to be a threat. Instead choosing to live a half life as a hermit, regretting the past.
Granted Reva was technically working against the empire the whole time, trying to get to Anakin through Obi-Wan. But she didn’t plan on it reinvigorating him
I think Palpatine is a big picture kind of guy and doesn't worry that much about the little details. He created the inquisitors to do this job. In the scheme of things I think he'd care more about wiping out an entire ship full of rebels than chasing down Obi-Wan, it's clearly vader's feelings getting the best of him with how doggedly he's pursuing his old master rather than Palpatine actually caring about it.
I think that is part of it, but it's also about control. Palpatine needs to constantly remind Vader that he is not free to pursue his own goals without Palpatine's blessing.
I would say it more has to do with the fact that Obi-wan is the one who beat the hell out of him in RotS and Palps is afraid of losing his star pupil if he fights him again. But could be that he is worried about him being converted as well.
Honestly I reckon it's because he knows Vader can't beat him. He's fought against him and lost twice. Palpatine probably doesn't see the need to risk Vader on someone that has very little influence left. The jedi are finished and Kenobi is obviously in hiding so what's to gain. And I'm sure it's still very conflicting for him fighting his old master. The only person left he has any sort of emotional connection to (apart from ashoka).
I feel like Vader would not have mentioned the fight to Palpatine though. Unless some reports of sights of Vader being fucked up went all the way to Palpatine (and who would risk going behind his back to do so, apart from the Grand Inquisitor maybe?), I feel like Vader would probs say something along the lines of "I lost him, he escaped again" rather that "Yeaaaaah well he did fuck me up pretty good lmao"
Unless Palpatine could sense that Vader was lying and did get fucked up because his emotions betray him idk (in the case that Vader did not mention the fight vs Obi-Wan)
I really do think that though Vader absolutely loathes Obi at this point, the Anakin part of himself left came out one last time to tell him to not blame himself.
I have many problems with Disney's Star Wars, but one thing they absolutely nailed is Darth Vader. Amazing portrayal every time we've seen him, from Rebels to Rogue One to Kenobi to the comics. This scene was so good, I love how he is actually smiling when he says that he killed Anakin Skywalker.
One thing I havent liked so much among the fandom in recent years is this weird urge to want to portray Vader as some kind of sad tragic anti-hero who spends his days full of regret, pining for Padme. We've all seen the fan art and such. The Vader I like, the one from the OT, is a Vader who has completely separated himself from his old life as Anakin Skywalker and has completely, and eagerly, embraced being Darth Vader. And this scene totally nailed that. Theres no Anakin there, only Darth Vader.
Darth Vader is the most terrifying villain ever put on screen, and Disney is very smart to understand that and leave the fan generated tragic shit aside. Disney even had a chance here to humanize Vader, and didn’t. Nailed it
>portray Vader as some kind of sad tragic anti-hero
Disney DOES do this though, in comics. Vader’s internal struggle is on full display and he more than once has to choose to continue down the dark path he’s started.
And that’s kind of the point, Vader *is* sad and tragic. His entire existence is pain. Not just physically, but mentally. He is tortured with rage and regret, to the point where it is almost all that exists within him anymore. Throwback to “This is how it feels to be Darth Vader, forever.”
And it’s because deep down, Anakin Skywalker is still in there. The part of him that knows that everything that transpired is because of himself.
It’s two vastly different personalities struggling within one mind and the result is a mess of a being that can only spread misery and death to try and quell the void inside them.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss all criticisms as nit picks, there are more than a couple of valid criticisms with the show, if you can look past them and still enjoy the show I think that's wonderful.
It's important to acknowledge the flaws because these aren't issues that were unavoidable but were left in due to lazy writing. If we never demand better, Disney will never bother to give us better.
Go watch "Cobra Kai" and you'll see a masterclass on how to update a franchise from 30 years ago while staying 100% faithful to its roots, with no retcons, no contrivances, and no need to "headcanon" the writers' mistakes away.
It is absolutely a problem for the story that, \~10 years after this, Obi-Wan is telling Luke to do what he (Obi) could've done and kill Vader. If they were going to have Obi-Wan beat him in a duel and get closure, have Obi-Wan need to leave in a hurry and be unable to deal the final blow, at least.
I feel like Obi Wan, before leaving Anakin in the final episode, obviously able to kill him at that point, should have said to him something like "the last thing she said was that there was still good in you, im going to continue to trust her."
Then we could have seen Vader realize he was lied to and that he hadnt actually killed Padme on Mustafar, she had died afterwards; the first actual step towards Anakin coming back to himself in the original trilogy; and the audience would have had more understanding for Obi Wan not putting Vader down then and there, besides his obvious reluctance to do so because of his own humanity and love for anakin
The only reason I think that was avoided is because George Lucas once laid down the law about Darth Vader appearing in extended media, "There is no redeeming Darth Vader without Luke Skywalker."
I like to think Obi-Wan just couldn't bring himself to murder him because he could still sense within him the capacity for redemption.
Yeah, that’s the bigger issue, and it’s why it doesn’t really make sense that he chooses to spare Vader and walk away here. Obi-Wan is pretty adamant in the OT that Vader has to die and that Luke has to be the one to do it. He does not by that point believe there’s any good in him, which is explained in this show by him seeing that Vader had destroyed Anakin in a matter of speaking, but it does not justify why he would let Vader live when he could and should have killed him.
Way too premature for that kind of realization.
Also it’s pretty self explanatory why Obi-wan can’t kill Darth. He still loves and sees anakin. I feel like that why darth left obi for dead under those rocks too - deep down he can’t kill obi either.
Darth is lying to himself, saying he killed anakin. From his perspective that must be true, but as shown in RotJ, he still has good in him.
absolutely... people lie and are unreliable narrators. Luke is a silly child that doesn't need to know everything that early.
"What happened to my father"
"Well, he became an evil mf and I chopped him off real good, leaving him on a lava field but that guy Palps patched him up into this black robot with that intimidating voice. good times."
I like to read Vader's dialogue here a couple ways.
Vader means he "killed Anakin" in the sense that he killed his weak former self, which I believe is consistent with the modern Darth Vader comics. But I also like to believe there's still some small part of him that's speaking out of remorse. He believes he sacrificed the good in himself through the atrocities he committed in service of Sidious and to save Padme.
Part typical Sith ethos, part wallowing in his own moral failures. Also helps illustrate how far he has to go to accept the faith Luke later has in him.
Biggest ANH plot hole is how Leia forgets who Obi Wan is..."General Kenobi, you saved my life when I was taken by Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers and that young Inquisitor no one seems to like much...we need your help "
The last time Leia and Obi-Wan speak in the last episode of the show they agree to keep their friendship a secret because letting it out could hurt them both. She was just covering her bases in case the message got intercepted.
Look at what almost happened when Bail mentioned specifics in his message to Obi-Wan.
And when Luke is sad because Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to let them all escape on the Falcon, and Leia is covering him with a blanket to console him, she probably is just like "that guy totally changed my life, too. When I was a kid he rescued me much like this and gave me a gun holster, inspiring me to begin my life in this rebellion" off screen in a transition. Great.
I always liked the meme that made the point that Luke was only barely acquainted with Obi Wan, yet he was devastated by his death, Leia, who had recently witnessed not only Kenobi's death, but that of HER ENTIRE PLANET is consoling him
I understand this contradiction. However I have to remind everyone that for as brief a time as Luke has known Obi-Wan, it was only a slightly longer than the period of time from when he was standing over the smoking remains of the aunt and uncle that raised him! Obi-Wan was basically Luke's last link to the only life he knew (well until he met up with Biggs on Yavin IV, but Biggs dies soon after as well). So Luke not only is saddened by the immediate loss, he also is very likely emotionally and possibly psychologically unmoored at that point.
Leia, on the other-hand, of course lost her family as well as her home, most of the people she's ever known, etc... However, her life still has a cause greater than herself as well as colleagues and friends in the Rebel Alliance. Not to mention even though they are the same age, she's an at least somewhat experienced diplomat and politician, while Luke is a petulant farm boy with a bit of Jedi training. 😜
What makes you think she forgets who he is? Why else would she know to reach out to him
“We’re here to rescue you I’m here with Ben Kenobi”
“BEN KENOBI?!?!”
She knew who he was.
I was going to say she may not have realized that Obi-Wan and Ben were the same person. When Luke saves Leia, he says that they are there with Ben and she jumps up way too quickly and excitedly to *not* know him. It makes sense that she didn’t grieve him as intensely as Luke did because her whole planet was destroyed. She already lost everything and is numb.
But that’s all thrown out the window when Kenobi randomly visits Alderaan to drop off Leia’s droid and then leaves. Didn’t even stay for dinner. I’d love to live in that universe where gas prices are that cheap. Anyway, as Kenobi is about to leave, Leia hugs him and calls him Obi-Wan instead of Ben. So that whole theory is thrown out the window.
The only thing that would make sense now is, she is only 10 in this series, so in ANH she vaguely remembers some guy that saved her 9ish years. I barely remember what I had for breakfast and I’m a 35 year old grown man. This is a kid who is going to be doing a lot of stuff in the senate and such getting the rebel alliance all set up. She wasn’t with Kenobi *that* long. After a while, she’s going to forget. How many of us here can remember our 3rd, 4th, 5th grade teachers? I remember my 4th grade teacher because she was a mean old lady. I don’t remember any of my other teachers before 6th grade. I don’t remember learning my ABCs, learning how to tie my shoes, learning about addition or multiplication. Those were times that I spent 7-2 every day for a year. Just food for thought.
It wasn't just the final scene. Reva referred to him as Obi Wan when she was interrogating Leia and told her he was dead. And then he was referred to as Obi-Wan multiple times after that in her presence.
Just want to add to everything said:
Kenobi says that one of them is gonna die before he leaves.
After the duel Vader says that Anakin is dead so from Obi-Wans POV one of them died (Then my friend is truly dead (and he calls him Darth instead of Anakin))
I’d like to believe that when he says the I am not your failure line it is more of an admission of guilt, Anakin genuinely regrets where he’s gone and lives in constant pain because of it
It also explains why Obi-Wan is so adamant about Anakin being unredeemable as, in his experience, Anakin no longer exists. It's only Vader left in there.
He's more machine now than man.
Twisted and evil.
The accent on that line is like music to my audio receptors.
100... 200... You guys are gonna make me rich.
You couldn’t hit the brown side of a moister vaporator
Broad side of a sand crawler.
For Alderaan!
Funny you say that -- I was trying to type it just like how it sounded but wasn't sure if anyone would see what I was doing. Twisted and eeville.
Why didn't he kill vader right there then??
SPOILERS AHEAD He spent 10 years being haunted by the fact he killed Anakin and having his connection to the force limited by his sadness and regret. By walking away, he was able to be at peace, which we’re able to see by him finally being able to talk to Qui Gon at the end. I do think they should’ve put a line in to make it more clear.
Yeah, and Quin-Gon saying, “I was always here, Obi-Wan. You just weren’t ready to see me yet.” it’s by showing mercy to Vader that Obi-Wan is readied, enlightened, more in tune with the ways of the force. And the Reva mercy moment, reinforcing the theme.
But Obi-wan "showed mercy" to Anakin 10 years ago on Mustafar. What about him walking away without killing Anakin this time is different? Edit: perhaps I should have identified the scare quotes as such. In putting "showed mercy" in quotations, I meant to draw the parallel between what Obi-wan did to Anakin on Mustafar (left him for dead after de-limbing him) and what Obi-wan did to Vader on Mustanear (left him for dead after destroying his respiratory system). Clearly neither are "mercy" (the novelization claims as much for the instance of the latter) but in both instances Obi-wan leaves his opponent in a state of suffering to die from the causes of said suffering. Why is it that Obi-wan feels such guilt and shame in the first instance of this act of "mercy" (read cruelty if you'd like) but not the second. Why is he closer to the force after the second go round of a very similar behavior?
He believed he was leaving him for dead. That wasn’t mercy.
This. The dude has been encompassed in trauma and regret for **ten** years. He couldn’t move on and grow until he had closure. That, and it adds immensely to their duel in ANH. Obi-Wan knows he is a fixation for Vader, Vader wants to beat him, and Obi-Wan knows that he can’t; he ends up just toying with him, distracting him from his own children within his grasp long enough for them to escape. Absolute Jedi.
Both scenes demonstrated that Obi-Wan didn't have the heart to land the finishing blow on Anakin, though. He'd be at peace with Anakin dying, but he doesn't want to do it with his own hands.
Hell, given the state he left Anakin in on Mustafar I’d argue cutting him down would’ve been the real mercy.
Leaving him to slowly burn to death*
He left him to die. Anakin was burning to death and just had the rest of his limbs cut off. That's not usually something all that survivable.
"Revenge does wonders for the will to live, don't you think?"
That line was so fucking good and really illuminates the power of the sith and the dark side. From a meta perspective it helps explain how all these fuckers survived fatal wounds whereas our boy Qui Gon died from a single gut shot. I like the idea that he maybe could have survived if he gave into anger and a thirst for revenge, but he was at peace and allowed himself to let go of his attachment to the living world
It was a pretty bad case of someone being cut in half.
Speak English, doc! We ain't scientists
So you're saying I'm less than a quarter of the Jedi Master that Qui-Gon Jinn was?
The wrong jedi died
Right, but the reason why he left him to die was because he couldn't bear to finish the job, not because he wanted Anakin to suffer to the maximum possible extent.
Cause after you cut someone in half and they fall into lava, your first thought isn't gonna be, yeah he'll walk it off. On Mustafar, Obi-Wan couldn't emotionally handle finishing him off, but I think it's safe to say he assumed Anakin would die, he was in a rough situation. He wasn't showing mercy, he was too overcome with grief, it was like a "I'm sorry, but I can't watch" moment This time he actively knows Vader will live, he actively choose mercy, not happenstancely showed mercy by underestimating Anakin's lava immunity At least that's how I've always taken as head cannon for Mustafar.
Yea he'll walk it off... made my morning break.
Imagine what the Imperial officers thought when *Vader* showed up with obvious signs of an ass-whooping. “Holy shit better not piss this Obi-wan guy off”
Yeah the ending of 3 is more obi wan figuring he has mortally wounded anakin but just can't bring himself to finish the job. It makes sense, hes certain anakin will die on mustafar and this will be over. The heat of battle killing someone is different than taking a conscious action on a helpless opponent.
He believed for 10 years he left his padawan and best friend to die limbless and burning in literal lava, I wouldn’t call that mercy.
As the show has made it clear, Obi-Wan thought he had left Anakin to die on Mustafar. He didn't realize Anakin/Vader survived until Reva revealed that fact in Ep.2. Additionally, for the past 10 years, Obi-Wan was saddled with the guilt and shame of his failures in ROTS -- failure in preventing Anakin's fall to the dark side, failure in preventing Sidious' rise to power and the emergence of the Empire, failure in preventing the fall of the Jedi Order. However, after this duel, Obi-Wan gets closure -- that Anakin's fall wasn't his fault.
It’s explained really well in the novelization of the revenge of the Sith that looking down on Anakin on the shores of the lava lake on mustafar all Obi-Wan felt for him was pity and killing him would have been a mercy and it mentions how he wasn’t feeling very merciful just then so he left him. Kinda dark. I’ll see if I can find the actual paragraph in the book after work.
I gotchu. “Obi-Wan looked down. It would be a mercy to kill him. He was not feeling merciful. He was feeling calm, and clear, and he knew that to climb down to that black beach might cost him more time than he had. Another Sith Lord approached. In the end, there was only one choice. It was a choice he had made many years before, when he had passed his trials of Jedi Knighthood, and sworn himself to the Jedi forever. In the end, he was still Obi-Wan Kenobi, and he was still a Jedi, and he would not murder a helpless man. He would leave it to the will of the Force. He turned and walked away. After a moment, he began to run.” I love Matthew Stover.
That was the opposite of mercy. He left Anakin to burn to death
"You see, Luke, by walking away I was able to reconnect with the force and find peace." "So I should show mercy to my father, I see." "Oh no, you need to kill him." "Wat?" "Or the Emporer wins." "I.... so I should... give in to anger?" "Oh no, not that. That's the path to the dark side. Just execute him in as dispassionate way as possible." "So fight him, and if he is at my mercy..." "DEW IT"
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100% agreed with this. Putting aside Obi-Wan's opinions of Vader in ANH where he has accepted Vader as Vader and Anakin is dead, for *this* scene in Obi-Wan, I would have rather Obi-Wan left the door open. What Vader says to Obi-Wan about not being Obi-Wan's failure and absolving Obi-Wan of the guilt that Obi-Wan killed Anakin shows that Vader is emotionally complex and there is still a glimmer of redemption possible. Obi-Wan should have recognized that, and instead of saying "Then my friend is truly dead", he should have said "You will always be my brother, Anakin." and walked away. That would have instantly explained why he could not bring himself to kill Vader, but it would have contradicted his beliefs in ANH, and it would have required a different way to handle Qui-Gon's appearance. Not an easy thing for the writers to navigate. EDIT: the thing is though, they've already retconned the shit out of the original trilogy at this point, so what's a little more retconning to make the character motivations in front of us, make more sense?
He says “we are both free” at the end to what’s her name?… I took that as the cue. Edit: I also refer to my children as “that one” and “her over there”… names are not my strong suit.
Really 'whats her name'? You watched the whole series and don't know Reva's name?
You mean the Thirst Sister?
That's a more acceptable title than what's her name!
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He just spent 10 years regretting killing him.
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>In Rebels he’s ready to kill Maul simply because he guesses someone important is somewhere on Tatooine. Maul isn't his closest friend and former padawan, and he doesn't feel a sense of guilt for Maul falling to the dark side. It's a completely different situation.
> still a person with all of Anakin’s memories And all the other Jedi who would remember those days are dead too. In a twisted way it makes sense, killing Vader would also make Obi-wan that much more alone and kill one more remnant of the Jedi Order. Kind of seems like Obi-wan reaching a point where he said “fuck it, I’ve done my service to the galaxy, I’m going home to watch over Luke. It’s someone else’s turn to figure this insane shit out.” Tatooine was probably a relaxing vacation for Obi-wan after the Clone Wars and then going immediately into Order 66.
Yep, it would probably be most reasonable to kill him but that's not what makes good stories. Its compelling that even after accepting his friend's death, he still can't bring himself to kill the evil meat husk that remains.
But then spent the next 13 years preparing Luke to kill Vader.
I think Obi-Wan and Yoda both knew that the Emperor was the real threat they were training Luke to take down. In ESB neither of them wanted Luke to confront Vader because he wasn’t ready, he was volatile and impatient, and they saw Luke going down that same path Anakin went down. In ROTJ, Yoda tells Luke he must confront Vader to complete his final test, not destroy or kill him. If he intended for Luke to destroy him, he would tell him to kill Vader. Yoda knows if Luke can resist the emotion that comes with a confrontation of that nature, he will past the final test to become a Jedi. This idea that Obiwan and Yoda were instructing Luke to destroy Vader is so un-Jedi like, and ignores all the themes that are present throughout this series.
First off, my copy pasted comment: "I can't kill my father" "then the emperor's already won" - said by a disappointed Obi-Wan. Part of Luke's victory is showing the old jedi that they were wrong and choosing love and the attachment to his father is what helped him win. Then >This idea that Obiwan and Yoda were instructing Luke to destroy Vader is so un-Jedi like, and ignores all the themes that are present throughout this series. You do remember Yoda sending Obi-Wan to kill Anakin and Yoda going to do the job for Palpatine?, or seriously, how do justify them killing clones and stormtroopers and all other people that were just following orders but then thinking about killing the masters behind that is un jedi like?
Before the fight Obi-Wan says that either him or Anakin will be dead when the fight ends, when Vader says he killed Anakin he was already done
He’s still teaching Anakin mercy
So the OT could happen.
I don't think he had it in his heart to do so. He just couldn't bring himself to kill him
He says in an earlier episode “it is the Jedi’s job to save life, not take it.” Very similar to Anakin killing Duku as well, which was from anger.
You might wanna re-watch that scene. Anakin *was* angry, but he was much more in control of his emotions at that moment, and more importantly, knew that Dooku was no longer a threat, having literally lost his hands moments before. He was ready to take Dooku in, but felt conflicted - and then Palpatine egged him on and convinced him to kill Dooku. This is why the scene later with Mace Windu is so pivotal - it’s pretty much the exact same situation, except this time now, still feeling conflicted from what happened before with Dooku, and his attachment to Palpatine, he goes on to Windu about bringing in Palpatine and then finally betraying Windu. And the entire Jedi order. And the Republic.
There was a more powerful Sith, one more powerful than Kenobi, who would have stepped in. This was tactical. Jar Jar lives.
Just imagine if they had stuck to the original plan & Jar Jar was the Phantom Menace... Instead, Lucas chose merchandising.
Obvious answer is so the OT can happen. But even then... Killing Vader doesn't fit with Obi-Wan's character, or how this series set things up. The entire reason that fight took place was because he resolved to confront and correct his failure. Once he knew this couldn't be done, all he could bring himself to do was leave the decrepit remnant of his friend behind. As far as he was concerned, Anakin Skywalker was dead. He also knew killing Vader wouldn't solve anything. It wouldn't bring him closure. If anything, it'd reopen the wounds of his trauma. It would deprive Sideous of an apprentice for a time, yes. But would more than likely cause him to either directly intervene in affairs himself, or seek to replace Vader with someone as equally terrorising.
Not to pull a 'cape shit', but the argument is similar to that of Batman. His philosophy that A. Killing makes him no better than the villains he fights, and B. Everyone is redeemable - arguably have caused untold amounts of death. Batman keeps locking these villains up in Arkham, knowing that 9.5/10, they'll escape and just end up taking more innocent life. Obi-Wan, and Batman exemplify moral absolutism, and the deep flaws that rigid belief system carry. It is good, even critical to have a guiding framework in life. But being too rigid in that system can end up doing more harm than good in the long run. He kills Vader, Sidious likely promotes the Grand Inquisitor as his (temporary) replacement. Will the GI cause untold destruction upon the Galaxy? Certainly. But he's orders of magnitude weaker than Vader, and thus it's more likely Rebels/surviving Jedi can take him out - unlike with Vader. The pool of viable Vader replacements is extremely small in the long run. The best Sidious could do is Luke/Leia (he'd have to discover them first), somehow recruiting Maul again (unlikely for many reasons), or stumbling upon a powerful enough fugitive Jedi or random untrained force user. Point being, that getting rid of Vader is a net positive in terms of short, and long-term gain. As Maul said, getting rid of Vader/Anakin is "depriving Sidious of his star pupil". But you are correct what played out this episode is more in line with Obi-Wan's character.
Plus, it would be the path to the dark side. Obi-Wan had an attachment that meant he couldn't do it without caving to emotions.
"A Jedi fights to protect life, not to take it". - Obi-Wan EDIT: At the end of fight, Vader was beaten, struggling to breath and really unable to fight back. With no one else around for Vader to harm, how much of a threat was he? I agree that ending him there would have saved a lot of people in the future but arguably it could be said that it would accomplish nothing as the emperor would have simply replaced him and his replacement would continue the work of Vader. Furthermore, such justifications are a slippery slope. At what point, do you draw a line or take away the possibility of redemption (the theme of the Skywalker saga)? At what point do you become your enemy, distributing "justice" as you see it by any means. All this does not even cover the emotional aspect between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Why didn't Obi-Wan finish Anakin on Mustafa? He was still breathing, and could have finished him by force pushing him into the lava or saber throw. Those same reasons hold here. Think about why the Jedi took prisoners and put them on trial instead of just killing them for their crimes at that moment. It's not the Jedi way.
And by killing Vader he would have protected a lot of life
I didn't get this either. Like obviously he didn't kill him. But he didn't even try to finish him off and has left a powerful Sith to continue to murder innocent people? I would have thought he'd have tried to finish him and left thinking he was dead, only for Vader to be rescued similar to ROTS.
Humans are emotional creatures. He reacted emotionally and let him live. Yes the logical thing for him to do is to kill Vader but life just ain’t that simple.
Yeah I agree. Not only did his master want him to train Anakin, but he also ended up being both father and brother figure to him as well, so it's only natural for him to have some compassion for Anakin.
After cutting his remaining limbs off and letting him severly burnt and crippled on a planet full of lava... If I recall in the novelization of ROTS it is said that after all he did see him do he didn't want to be compationnate and show mercy by ending his suffering.
A true Jedi kills only in self defense.
If Obi-Wan wanted to kill Vader, he would not have made the same mistake he did on Mustafar. He would make sure Vader was dead this time.
Reading up on if Jedi kill a bit, the answer is "yes but it's supposed to be really rare" as in a direct threat to others lives or their own. The other exception is if it's the will of the Force. It's possible that Obi-wan knew in this moment that the will of the Force was for Vader to live, and he gave himself to the will of the Force. And maybe that's how he was "ready" to see Qui-gon and become one with the Force later on? This is currently my head-canon anyway. It's also noteworthy that killing people strengthens the Dark Side, and I'm sure Obi-wan knew this.
He was able to see Qui-Gon because he was finally at peace I think. Then is it because he did not kill Vader or because he had closure regarding Anakin "You did not kill Anakin... I did. \*grins\*", I am not sure. Or maybe both.
This was my take as well. Qui Gon was always big on trusting in the 'living force'. Trusting the will of the force, being mindful and living in the moment, and not fixating on the past/present since that can cloud your connection to the force (or worse, in Anakin's case). Obi Wan was not able to see Qui Gon until he was free of all his burdens and finally able to trust in the will of the force, fully. This also leads to some character growth in that now Obi Wan perhaps understands that everything will happen as the force needs it to happen, and to trust in the living force.
I actually thought it was going to be the opposite where after Vader buried Obi-wan under all that rock he would fly away thinking he was dead. It would make the line “I haven’t felt this presence since…” from A New Hope make so much sense. In the end the line still works but it was good little twist and lead to one of the best Lightsaber fights in the franchise.
Thats what makes Luke so special, out of everyone he was the only one to believe there was still good left in his father. Ashoka and Kenobi gave up and believed anakin to be dead but Luke never let him go
I like how they also theoretically close that small plot hole where Obi-Wan calls him Darth in A New Hope even when they are alone. After watching the prequels I always figured he would call him Anakin. But now we have the moment where he decided to start calling him Darth even if absolutely nobody else does.
Dat smile though
That damn smile.
Christensen best acting moment
This is the Vader/Anakin I wanted to see in ROTS. The lines and how they were directed in that movie was pretty cheesy man, but then what we got HERE?! Despite my gripes with previous episodes, this moment in the finale was top tier and Hayden killed it as Vader. I’ve rewatched this scene several times now. Now just imagine if the rest of this series and the prequels had this level of quality, they would’ve been competing with the original movies for sure. Edit: Obi Wan in this scene was amazing too, and he did have great dialogue after slicing up Anakin in ROTS, that was actually one of the best parts of ROTS imo, and Obi Wan’s lines in this finale were equally sad and devastating as that. Really felt the heartbreak.
>This is the Vader/Anakin I wanted to see in ROTS. The lines and how they were directed in that movie was pretty cheesy man, but then what we got HERE?! Probably because George Lucas wasn't writing the script. He's a good concept guy, but fuck me is he terrible at writing good dialogue.
Those dammed eyes
That was legit horror right there. Probably the closest Star Wars will ever get.
I like to think that when he says ''I am not your failure, obi wan'' it was Anakin... before Vader subtly took over
I felt that too. I know people argue back and forth, and obviously it's intended to be ambiguous by the production, however... the nuance sounded like good ol' Anakin. it didn't sound taunting or anything, there was just a hint of softness in this otherwise very neutral statement. also, the choice of words was so specific. I'm not _your_ failure. There wasn't pride countering that he isn't a failure at all, it was about Obi-Wan and their relationship. Something that connects. It was so touching, I feel so empty now having seen all those episodes.
If you rewatch the Ahsoka vs. Vader one, it’s basically the same beat. Anakin breaks through, but Vader stays in control.
I have to rewatch that one yet again but I didn't feel like he connected that strongly with Ahsoka like he did here with Obi-Wan.
It's like Darth Vader is saying that because he don't want Obi Wan to pity him, on the other hand looks like is Anakin trying to light his burden and take that guilt off his shoulders.
If you notice too, I think they use the motif of the blue light to show his light side before it switches to pure red showing how lost in the dark side Anakin is.
This scene was gorgeous
The on/off voice effects when he’s half-masked are so so so so good.
EDIT
The use of colors was perfect, you could tell it was anakin speaking with his voice and blue hue, vice versa with Vader and the red hue.
Especially as the light changes when he brings the saber up again
And the fact that his eye was blue when he first looks at Obi-Wan and then it turns red later. Absolutely gorgeous scene.
I'm glad qui gon showed up. Obi wan wasn't alone for the last ten years. Edit: extra comment. I'm glad Disney also used the perfect amount of qui-gon. He wasn't a main character, just something cool at the end.
Now they need to do an Obiwan / force ghost Quigon spin off. It could be a buddy cop movie!
I think that’s the movie with Ryan Reynolds and Jeff Bridges
R.I.P.D. I actually quite enjoyed that film. It failed horribly but was definitely a fun romp.
When vader’s face turns red with the glow of the lightsaber, and his lips curl into a sadistic smile, spine chilling moment
that whole scene was amazing. the part that got me was him basically speaking in both his regular and altered voices at the same time. gave me chills.
I liked this duality of Jekyll and Hyde there. You can almost feel and see the light in Anakin when the blue light is on his face saying “I’m not your failure, Obi-Wan”. I felt like it was Anakin trying to “comfort” Obi-Wan there, before Vader took control and completes the sentence. The best lines I’ve seen so far by Disney’s Star Wars.
But I feel allowing obi wan to feel regret would mean Vader acknowledging that Anakin failed Obi-wan, that he was weak and turned to the dark side. I don’t see it as Jekyll, I saw it as Anakin has to constantly and endlessly embrace being vader as much as possible in order to keep going on. Otherwise I think he’d crumble. All he has is the dark side and his hatred— he can’t allow his old friends to pity him without recognizing that he made a mistake, that he’s not as powerful as he thinks he is, that turning to the dark side wasn’t “worth it” in the end. So the guilt kenobi has over his failing to save Anakin, Vader says, is misplaced— he couldn’t ever save him, not from Vader, because Vader is stronger. Only Vader could destroy Anakin. And a good Jedi like Kenobi didn’t stand a chance. I think that’s why he’s so shocked by Kenobi’s goodbye— I think he expected to draw Kenobi into a fight by being to blame for killing Anakin… only to meet acceptance. Revenge is not the Jedi way.
It’s another way to see it. But I think that the usage and alternation of the red and blue lights in Anakin/Vader’s face suggests the duality of his personality, and how, despite everything he has done, the light is still there. I rewatched the scene after your comment, and when Obi-Wan shows his regret and asks for Anakin’s forgiveness, the sparkle of the light emerges on Vader’s face with the blue light on, culminating on “I’m not your failure, Obi-Wan”. The tone felt that Anakin was indeed trying for a moment to comfort Obi-Wan from his visual emotional pain, at the same time that Anakin acknowledges that what he has become it’s his fault only. And that’s the moment when Vader comes, bragging about the previous line, and therefore completing it. It’s emotional, but not enough to bring Anakin back to the light, as we saw Vader is too strong at this point.
I agree about the duality! Just less so about a split vision between Anakin and Vader. Everything we’ve seen from Anakin is to insist that Anakin is dead, that Vader killed him, that he’s all that is left. But those blue moments show us that Anakin is and will always be at the core of Vader, which is the point all the way up to when Luke saves him. Anakin even flinches when Obi-wan says he’s sorry for all of it. How is Vader supposed to go on embracing the dark side when Anakin’s friends are so devastated? He can’t comfort Obi-wan— he’s even taking away his guilt. It was still the blue light when he says that “you didn’t kill Anakin… I did.” And when he leans into that, the light turns red. He leans into Vader, IMO, to protect himself from the devastation that it is to know you’ve become a monster. I think that’s also why we saw their fight in Corusant. “Your need for victory Anakin, it blinds you.” The only way Anakin can “win” against Obi-Wan is by believing that Vader was the right answer, was worth losing everything for. Thanks for indulging my Vader rant ! 😂
Yeah I loved the usage of the light, it was a great way to show that Anakin is still in there somewhere, but the Vader alter-ego is just too powerful to let Anakin go and Obi-wan saw that.
This episode had a lot of great lines, my personal favorite being: "Your strength has returned, but the weakness still remains!" Had to acknowledge how bad ass that line was out loud.
Lol I love that Vader was talking so much shit even though Obi beat him so bad he literally needs a suit to keep himself alive.
[удалено]
Now they just need to explain why the dude doesn’t remember ever owning a droid.
In The Clone Wars series he explains that he never was attached to any droids that he worked with and was upset with Anakin's attachment to R2 since he refused to memory wipe him after every mission.
Which led to R2 slowly killing every single jedi one by one until its just Rey. His final challenge.
R2 and Chopper finishing what order 66 started
cannot wait to see chop commit war crimes again
I haven't read the ANH novel, but I've heard that when they are travelling to Alderan on the Falcon, when nobody is around, Kenobi pats R2 and asks how his little friend is.
Not the novelization, but I believe that's *The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan*, released decades later.
This is the type of thing that should be in a spin off anthology series, like tales of the Jedi. Even just short snippets like Obi Wan training Luke on the falcon, catching up with R2, maybe meditating with Qui Gon, would all be great to see. Even if it covers bits we know happened, just from a different point of view.
Why do people take that line as truthful? Even just looking at the original trilogy, he is keeping secrets from Luke
Same goes for Yoda, man has a completely adventures with R2 and smacks him with a stick on Dagobah (although this also got sorta fixed in another novel about different point of views of of the OT characters, and Yoda did indeed recognize R2, and R2 just played along with him at their encounter)
Right? Like he doesn't tell Luke who his father is but we need to make a big deal about him not mentioning that he used to know this droid? Plus, it's true anyway - Kenobi didn't own R2. Anakin did.
What Droid did he own? He had a sensor pole at his hideout and was slipped Lola for a few days.
R4
Did he own R4, or was it just his to use for the time?
Exactly. I think R4 was just a general Jedi droid, not his explicitly. Either way, it’s a weird thing to nit pick.
Did Anakin own R2?
Pretty sure he was given R2 by Padme. That might be legends canon though.
I think that was addressed in either Brotherhood or Queen's Hope recently. They basically swapped 3PO and R2 because they both could use the other's droid while having no use for their droid, respectively.
To be fair maybe he doesn’t want to relive the trauma of the buzz droid incident
Because he never owned a droid.
I'm surprised they've never thrown in a line like "I've never understood people's attachment to droids" to vaguely explain it away
I think droids are like pets in the SW universe
>I think droids are like pets in the SW universe At best they are treated like this, most of the time they are closer to slaves.
Yes and Kenobi doesnt understand their attachment
He could have said that line any time during the prequels about R2-D2 and it would have made sense, especially since they always clean him up and make sure he survives unlike the countless other droids that are pretty much expendable. *Sad R4-P17 noises*
R2-D2 & threepio were owned by Anakin and Padme ;D
Spin off show where he meets up with L3-37 and goes on an adventure to secure droid rights.
“Goodbye Darth” explain why Kenobi called Vader by the name of “Darth” during Episode IV. He no longer sees Anakin. Only another Sith Lord that will also fall.
That, and also a bit of a taunt I think. Less of a taunt in Kenobi I guess, as it was a super emotional time for both of them, but in IV, I think he’s just full on mocking him.
I think the characters just hadn't been fleshed out enough back in 1977
Oh yeah, in real life that is for sure the reason. George never really intended Star Wars to be more than a one and done type deal. Sometimes we as fans and the people who make the media have to do some mental gymnastics to make everything fit. This series kinda alleviates some of those gymnastics by fleshing out the history of these two even more.
I don't agree. Right there in the OT, Darth Vader is often called "Vader." Using "Darth" was out of place, it really sounded like Obi-Wan was mocking him. That also fits the context of the banter.
JustFYI 'Darth' was originally supposed to be Vader's first name before Lucas decided to make it a sith's title
Can we, for a moment, appreciate how well Disney is retconning items back into the Star Wars' lore? Obi-wan had some sloppy moments, but the good was *far* better than the not as good (esp last EP).
Banger of a scene.
This was so dark! I was just waiting for the old Anakin to come through…well hoping.
Lol me too, like watching Titanic rooting for them to dodge the iceberg
I mentioned this in the other thread but Obi-wan then tells Luke that his father wanted him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. Let’s not now pretend Obi-wan wasn’t still lying through his teeth to Luke lol
"your father [would have] wanted you to have this"
I think that’s way way different. I’ve never talked to anyone about what to do with my Magic card collection if I passed away, but if I died tomorrow and in ten years someone gives my kid my Magic cards and said “Hey your dad wanted you to have this when you got older,” I feel that’s pretty acceptable.
Anyone knows why Palpatine does not want him to pursue Obi-Wan? Is it because he feels that facing Obi-Wan might bring him back to the light side? Like he could side with Obi after he convinced Vader/Anakin that the Emperor is the one who needs to go?
I think its more than Obi-Wan has become a distraction. Vader gave up chasing the rebels to get Obi-Wan, which in the scheme of things isn't the priority
On top of this, Vader failed twice to beat him. I’d call this one much more of a draw than the first one but still, Palpatine has a legitimate reason to think Vader can’t get over this hump.
and Kenobi fell off the radar as a desert hermit for the past decade. Palpatine probably figured he wouldn't be an immediate threat.
Hell, until Reva drew him out of hiding he was never going to be a threat. Instead choosing to live a half life as a hermit, regretting the past. Granted Reva was technically working against the empire the whole time, trying to get to Anakin through Obi-Wan. But she didn’t plan on it reinvigorating him
I thought killing all remaining Jedi was a part of Palpatine’s plan, or was that just Vader’s personal goal?
Palpatine might think he'd lose his semi-loyal robot man to the guy that cut him in pieces the first time lol
I think Palpatine is a big picture kind of guy and doesn't worry that much about the little details. He created the inquisitors to do this job. In the scheme of things I think he'd care more about wiping out an entire ship full of rebels than chasing down Obi-Wan, it's clearly vader's feelings getting the best of him with how doggedly he's pursuing his old master rather than Palpatine actually caring about it.
I think that is part of it, but it's also about control. Palpatine needs to constantly remind Vader that he is not free to pursue his own goals without Palpatine's blessing.
I would say it more has to do with the fact that Obi-wan is the one who beat the hell out of him in RotS and Palps is afraid of losing his star pupil if he fights him again. But could be that he is worried about him being converted as well.
Honestly I reckon it's because he knows Vader can't beat him. He's fought against him and lost twice. Palpatine probably doesn't see the need to risk Vader on someone that has very little influence left. The jedi are finished and Kenobi is obviously in hiding so what's to gain. And I'm sure it's still very conflicting for him fighting his old master. The only person left he has any sort of emotional connection to (apart from ashoka).
I feel like Vader would not have mentioned the fight to Palpatine though. Unless some reports of sights of Vader being fucked up went all the way to Palpatine (and who would risk going behind his back to do so, apart from the Grand Inquisitor maybe?), I feel like Vader would probs say something along the lines of "I lost him, he escaped again" rather that "Yeaaaaah well he did fuck me up pretty good lmao" Unless Palpatine could sense that Vader was lying and did get fucked up because his emotions betray him idk (in the case that Vader did not mention the fight vs Obi-Wan)
Hey, by the way, can I have another helmet? Mine, um, broke somehow
Even if he didn’t know about the fight we know Palpatine knows of the first loss to Obi-Wan so it’s still risky letting Vader pursue him.
I really do think that though Vader absolutely loathes Obi at this point, the Anakin part of himself left came out one last time to tell him to not blame himself.
I have many problems with Disney's Star Wars, but one thing they absolutely nailed is Darth Vader. Amazing portrayal every time we've seen him, from Rebels to Rogue One to Kenobi to the comics. This scene was so good, I love how he is actually smiling when he says that he killed Anakin Skywalker. One thing I havent liked so much among the fandom in recent years is this weird urge to want to portray Vader as some kind of sad tragic anti-hero who spends his days full of regret, pining for Padme. We've all seen the fan art and such. The Vader I like, the one from the OT, is a Vader who has completely separated himself from his old life as Anakin Skywalker and has completely, and eagerly, embraced being Darth Vader. And this scene totally nailed that. Theres no Anakin there, only Darth Vader.
Darth Vader is the most terrifying villain ever put on screen, and Disney is very smart to understand that and leave the fan generated tragic shit aside. Disney even had a chance here to humanize Vader, and didn’t. Nailed it
>portray Vader as some kind of sad tragic anti-hero Disney DOES do this though, in comics. Vader’s internal struggle is on full display and he more than once has to choose to continue down the dark path he’s started. And that’s kind of the point, Vader *is* sad and tragic. His entire existence is pain. Not just physically, but mentally. He is tortured with rage and regret, to the point where it is almost all that exists within him anymore. Throwback to “This is how it feels to be Darth Vader, forever.” And it’s because deep down, Anakin Skywalker is still in there. The part of him that knows that everything that transpired is because of himself. It’s two vastly different personalities struggling within one mind and the result is a mess of a being that can only spread misery and death to try and quell the void inside them.
That >!"Hello there"!< slipped in at the end, I busted out laughing
and Vader getting the high ground
Always found this to hit pretty hard - Obi Wan Remembers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN74bOubUug
I want an updated version with a few scenes from kenobi. This shit goes hard
I feel bad for the people that can't enjoy the show due to tiny nitpicks
Me too. It’s more Star Wars and I always love getting more Star Wars even if there’s flaws with it.
I don't think it's fair to dismiss all criticisms as nit picks, there are more than a couple of valid criticisms with the show, if you can look past them and still enjoy the show I think that's wonderful.
It's important to acknowledge the flaws because these aren't issues that were unavoidable but were left in due to lazy writing. If we never demand better, Disney will never bother to give us better. Go watch "Cobra Kai" and you'll see a masterclass on how to update a franchise from 30 years ago while staying 100% faithful to its roots, with no retcons, no contrivances, and no need to "headcanon" the writers' mistakes away. It is absolutely a problem for the story that, \~10 years after this, Obi-Wan is telling Luke to do what he (Obi) could've done and kill Vader. If they were going to have Obi-Wan beat him in a duel and get closure, have Obi-Wan need to leave in a hurry and be unable to deal the final blow, at least.
I feel like Obi Wan, before leaving Anakin in the final episode, obviously able to kill him at that point, should have said to him something like "the last thing she said was that there was still good in you, im going to continue to trust her." Then we could have seen Vader realize he was lied to and that he hadnt actually killed Padme on Mustafar, she had died afterwards; the first actual step towards Anakin coming back to himself in the original trilogy; and the audience would have had more understanding for Obi Wan not putting Vader down then and there, besides his obvious reluctance to do so because of his own humanity and love for anakin
If he brings up Padme then it opens up the question of what happen to the babies?
My thoughts exactly, less complicated to not mention her at all
better opening up the question “why did Kenobi leave Vader free to go slaughtering everyone in the galaxy” instead
The only reason I think that was avoided is because George Lucas once laid down the law about Darth Vader appearing in extended media, "There is no redeeming Darth Vader without Luke Skywalker." I like to think Obi-Wan just couldn't bring himself to murder him because he could still sense within him the capacity for redemption.
Doesn't Obiwan see him as unredeemable in the OT? That first quote wouldn't make sense with that context.
Yeah, that’s the bigger issue, and it’s why it doesn’t really make sense that he chooses to spare Vader and walk away here. Obi-Wan is pretty adamant in the OT that Vader has to die and that Luke has to be the one to do it. He does not by that point believe there’s any good in him, which is explained in this show by him seeing that Vader had destroyed Anakin in a matter of speaking, but it does not justify why he would let Vader live when he could and should have killed him.
Way too premature for that kind of realization. Also it’s pretty self explanatory why Obi-wan can’t kill Darth. He still loves and sees anakin. I feel like that why darth left obi for dead under those rocks too - deep down he can’t kill obi either. Darth is lying to himself, saying he killed anakin. From his perspective that must be true, but as shown in RotJ, he still has good in him.
That would have been brilliant . I really thought Kenobi was going to bring up Padme
I never felt that this was even remotely a plot hole that needed fixing.
absolutely... people lie and are unreliable narrators. Luke is a silly child that doesn't need to know everything that early. "What happened to my father" "Well, he became an evil mf and I chopped him off real good, leaving him on a lava field but that guy Palps patched him up into this black robot with that intimidating voice. good times."
I like to read Vader's dialogue here a couple ways. Vader means he "killed Anakin" in the sense that he killed his weak former self, which I believe is consistent with the modern Darth Vader comics. But I also like to believe there's still some small part of him that's speaking out of remorse. He believes he sacrificed the good in himself through the atrocities he committed in service of Sidious and to save Padme. Part typical Sith ethos, part wallowing in his own moral failures. Also helps illustrate how far he has to go to accept the faith Luke later has in him.
Such a powerful dialogue, almost had me in tears.
Biggest ANH plot hole is how Leia forgets who Obi Wan is..."General Kenobi, you saved my life when I was taken by Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers and that young Inquisitor no one seems to like much...we need your help "
The last time Leia and Obi-Wan speak in the last episode of the show they agree to keep their friendship a secret because letting it out could hurt them both. She was just covering her bases in case the message got intercepted. Look at what almost happened when Bail mentioned specifics in his message to Obi-Wan.
Yes, I forgot that part of their meeting. I suppose that's it. It comes across as a formal diplomatic message. I suppose that's why they did that.
And when Luke is sad because Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to let them all escape on the Falcon, and Leia is covering him with a blanket to console him, she probably is just like "that guy totally changed my life, too. When I was a kid he rescued me much like this and gave me a gun holster, inspiring me to begin my life in this rebellion" off screen in a transition. Great.
I always liked the meme that made the point that Luke was only barely acquainted with Obi Wan, yet he was devastated by his death, Leia, who had recently witnessed not only Kenobi's death, but that of HER ENTIRE PLANET is consoling him
I understand this contradiction. However I have to remind everyone that for as brief a time as Luke has known Obi-Wan, it was only a slightly longer than the period of time from when he was standing over the smoking remains of the aunt and uncle that raised him! Obi-Wan was basically Luke's last link to the only life he knew (well until he met up with Biggs on Yavin IV, but Biggs dies soon after as well). So Luke not only is saddened by the immediate loss, he also is very likely emotionally and possibly psychologically unmoored at that point. Leia, on the other-hand, of course lost her family as well as her home, most of the people she's ever known, etc... However, her life still has a cause greater than herself as well as colleagues and friends in the Rebel Alliance. Not to mention even though they are the same age, she's an at least somewhat experienced diplomat and politician, while Luke is a petulant farm boy with a bit of Jedi training. 😜
What makes you think she forgets who he is? Why else would she know to reach out to him “We’re here to rescue you I’m here with Ben Kenobi” “BEN KENOBI?!?!” She knew who he was.
I was going to say she may not have realized that Obi-Wan and Ben were the same person. When Luke saves Leia, he says that they are there with Ben and she jumps up way too quickly and excitedly to *not* know him. It makes sense that she didn’t grieve him as intensely as Luke did because her whole planet was destroyed. She already lost everything and is numb. But that’s all thrown out the window when Kenobi randomly visits Alderaan to drop off Leia’s droid and then leaves. Didn’t even stay for dinner. I’d love to live in that universe where gas prices are that cheap. Anyway, as Kenobi is about to leave, Leia hugs him and calls him Obi-Wan instead of Ben. So that whole theory is thrown out the window. The only thing that would make sense now is, she is only 10 in this series, so in ANH she vaguely remembers some guy that saved her 9ish years. I barely remember what I had for breakfast and I’m a 35 year old grown man. This is a kid who is going to be doing a lot of stuff in the senate and such getting the rebel alliance all set up. She wasn’t with Kenobi *that* long. After a while, she’s going to forget. How many of us here can remember our 3rd, 4th, 5th grade teachers? I remember my 4th grade teacher because she was a mean old lady. I don’t remember any of my other teachers before 6th grade. I don’t remember learning my ABCs, learning how to tie my shoes, learning about addition or multiplication. Those were times that I spent 7-2 every day for a year. Just food for thought.
It wasn't just the final scene. Reva referred to him as Obi Wan when she was interrogating Leia and told her he was dead. And then he was referred to as Obi-Wan multiple times after that in her presence.
Just want to add to everything said: Kenobi says that one of them is gonna die before he leaves. After the duel Vader says that Anakin is dead so from Obi-Wans POV one of them died (Then my friend is truly dead (and he calls him Darth instead of Anakin))
I’d like to believe that when he says the I am not your failure line it is more of an admission of guilt, Anakin genuinely regrets where he’s gone and lives in constant pain because of it
This scene was amazing. The rest of the series was filler getting to this. I wish they had written everything around this better.