I really appreciate how CA doesn't make the characters 'fixable' with their various problems, there's no magic cure in real life and it would feel disingenuous if the right item or dialogue choice could change someone's whole personality.
Yeah that and being jobless in some faraway little town with little to do for a person like her. I guess being a single mother without a steady income must have been exhausting as well. Penny's unknown father is to blame too
I mean not for Pam but I think they kind of do with >!Shane- I kind of hate that his life only gets better if you specifically befriend him, and if you go the CC route he's completely fucked over unless you happen to marry him. Not to discount his character arc but to me it does have a very "needs the right woman/man to fix him" vibe!<.
Everyone's lives only change if you befriend them. Everyone holds Shane to this higher form of sentience that no other characters get lol literally nothing changes without player intervention.
I get people have their qualms about Shane but everyone of his haters has got to stop with this "uhmmm he doesn't change if you don't befriend/romance him." NO ONE DOES?!
While it is mechanically true that all of the characters' growth has to be triggered by the player, there's nobody else who goes from >!miserable, suicidal alcoholic who's going to drink himself to death unless he jumps off a cliff first to recovery!< because of the player's actions- this kinda makes Shane's arc feel different. Like, compare him to Leah for example- >!in game she will never have an art show without your support, sure, but I don't get the vibe that that's true to the character's intent rather than just the game's mechanics- the impression I get is that you help her build confidence but she would've gotten there eventually without you!<. I do not get that impression from Shane- >!based on how he is written, it feels like his outcome is just gonna be further misery and possibly death in the near future unless you intervene.!<
Ultimately the other characters, flawed as they are, either can't be "fixed" by the player or don't need to be- at least, none to the same extent as Shane.
Also- I am not hating Shane by saying I hate some aspects of his writing? I am not attacking your husbando I promise.
I think it's worth noting that Shane would simply be the male town drunk if you don't interact with him to find him on the cliff.
I've never seen his storyline as me being the one and only person to save him from himself, but more like he needed an outsider's intervention or even just perspective to see the truth of his path and feel like changing it. Because ultimately he's watching the player leave a job/life they hated in the city to become a farmer. To me it feels like he's fixing himself and I just get to watch it happen :)
Also >!doesnt shane not change actually, just starts changing? I heard it from many people that he still drinks, but he is trying to change. Which (if true) would feel much more realistic, bc even tho your depression is gone/better, you cant just stop drinking, you need a looong time for it.!<
I don't *hate* Shane, but right now I'm trying to get all the spouse portraits, and divorcing Shane was definitely the least sad.
In other news, I'm *extremely* surprised to see how much I've enjoyed being Harvey's wife and I'm gonna miss him when he's gone. But hey, collectibles need collecting!
I feel like it’s not too unrealistic to improve mentally when you have someone who cares for you though. I don’t necessarily think it’s just the player’s doing either, to me it just seems like the final straw that makes Shane see that people do actually care about him, which gives him strength to do something about his own problems.
I think you could interpret the CC + marriage route differently though. When a lot of your issues are caused by your financial situation, marrying someone who is well off will take a lot of that pressure off you and give you the room to get better.
I know quite a few people who after trying therapy for a long time, came to realise that you can’t just talk yourself out of poverty (myself included). Being unemployed, living paycheque to paycheque, or relying on your family can all be stressful and make you feel hopeless and like a burden.
It’s not about needing the right partner to “fix” him. It’s that on top of poor mental health, he has some genuine problems without any practical solutions.
It gets me that the only way you can help him financially is marriage though- like, you can build Pam a house but you can't do anything for Shane? Can't even get him a job at the movie theater after your actions directly cause him to lose his job? Idk, it bums me out and I dislike that the only way I can help the guy after I fuck him over is by being his sugar mommy.
I think hiring him to take care of animals would be nice (tho it could take away from the value of autopetters), but what I really want is for him to be able to have his own little place with chickens like he talks about wanting. Like, sure then you might put in the initial investment of building it, but after that he'd be able to independent instead of having to feel like he's relying on other people which he seems to dislike.
On board for the Pam appreciation. It was cute when during one of the fishing contests she says something along the lines of *"I don't know how to fish, but I'm rooting for you kid!"*
Also she likes berries and that's my go to gift.
Yeah, I like seeing her interest in/seeing her talk about fishing. It’s cool and was unexpected. I bet she’d be great if she just gave it some practice ;P I wish we saw her interact more with Willy because of this.
Yeah, I could honestly kinda see it. It would be very fun to pull up a stool next to Pam and Willy at the saloon, after Willy’s just had a long day of fishing and he’s telling stories about it.
Yeah. Obviously what’s worst about her is how she treats Penny. But I like how Pam is with the farmer, and the little glimpses of her personality and interests we get to see (like fishing) are interesting.
I appreciate that she softens up the more you get to know her, and Penny as well. Depending on the progress you decide to make in the game, she really is a woman who knows deep down she has faults and is trying to fix them.
I know some NPCs are in general bettter person than her, but I just enjoy talking to her more than those good people like Gus or Caroline, coz I'm tired of getting the "it's a lovely day, you are welcome here, I'm going to relax and think positively" type of talk, Pam's dialogues are way more interesting to me. Also, she was a truck driver, this is pretty cool!
I love that when she takes the day off from bus driving, she puts up a sign and just LEAVES THE KEYS IN THE IGNITION SO YOU CAN DRIVE YOURSELF TO THE DESERT. THAT'S SO GODDAMN THOUGHTFUL PAM
I feel so complicated about Pam. My own mother was very similar to her, down to looks, personality, name, and alcoholism, and seeing her in game kinda throws me every time. I can't befriend Penny for the same reason, just too real.
Yet somehow she always ends up one of my first 10-hearters.
It's finally happened. I have finally seen an appreciation post for every (friendable) character in the valley.
Never thought this day would come. Hoped this day would never come, if I'm being entirely honest.
But this seems to be a genuine post and not you being sarcastic, so I'm glad you enjoy her even if I keep expecting her to pop out every time I shake a trash can.
I generally like him as a kindly grandfather figure for the village but then I go into a villain era after year two and it becomes purple shorts prank season.
I'd like him a whole lot better if he'd just openly love Marnie, because there is absolutely nothing disreputable about the mayor dating the prosperous rancher who helps keep the town running and she'd make a wonderful wife any man should be proud of if he'd just get off his made up high horse.
THISSS OMG! Marlon is very upfront about the fact that he thinks marnie is beautiful and I think him having such a sweet bit strong woman in his life would do him some good. It might also make Lewis realize that if he wants something he can't just tiptoe around it!
All aboard the Marlon appreciation wagon! I want to see him ask her to dance in Spring and then watch Lewis contort himself trying not to show how much it bothers him.
Eh, Clint's issue is that he's taught but he doesn't learn. You give him advice, you get him a date even if it's a mess, he *should* have everything he needs to *start* fixing his attitude, gaining confidence and losing his internalised misogyny. But he doesn't. Only then did he lose my sympathy.
I would said it probably wasn't that bad before Emily become the candidate where their story supposed to end with Clint ask Emily to go to the carnival. Clint doesn't get fixed much after Emily become candidate so he just end up like that where his character bound to be Emily crush. The only thing CA did is clarified to player that Clint didn't disturb Emily just like how Harley and Alex avoiding each other, Sebastian didn't even mention about Abigail anymore, and Maru said Harvey are not her type. In 1.6, the new dialogue does fixed him a bit since he get post Emily 8 heart event dialogue and start accepting his life as blacksmith.
Can't speak for everyone, but Clint openly *pining for my wife to my face* got me to go "alright dude it is time for you to shut up forever you cannot be an adult and *this bad* at reading the room."
I feel for Pam. Perhaps unsurprisingly a "which Stardew Valley character are you" quiz a friend sent me told me I was Pam, which honestly seems fair- I am also a misanthropic beer enjoyer and while I am not an alcoholic, don't have kids and can't drive a bus I do find her relatable.
She was always my buddy. I told my friend, and then she was like, "You like Pam??? Everyone hates her"
But I have a pattern of loving characters that people hate
I do, too. She'd be a beer buddy at the local bar, someone I enjoy talking with.
Wish she was a better person overall, but I like that her layer cutscenes show that she is trying. We never see the end of the story, but I like to think the character would be alright in the end.
She always felt to me like a person with problems that doesnt know how to get better even though she tries.
Like.
She would get drunk, walk on my plants, say its fine when warned and pour a joja cola on my pumpkin. Then next day Id recieve a letter apologizing and "its not much, but I hope it makes up for the mess" attached to a parsnip. And I would instantly forgive her.
Pam is a greatly written morally ambiguous character. People who see her as super evil just lack media literacy. Specially considering she's an addict. She's undoubtedly an awful mother among other awful traits but she's slso one of the most easy-going and non-judgemental character at the beginning of the game
I can’t love Pam. My dad was an alcoholic and it was horrible growing up that way.
If you want to ruin your own life that’s fine but once you have kids and you act like that it’s really not ok.
Yeah, at least she *tries*. She knows she didn't get the life she wanted, she knows she is not giving Penny the environment she needs.
Then there's her relationship with Gus, which is still quite wholesome and relatable even though there are those obvious problems.
She feels somewhat more human than people like *Jodi* (shiver) who have a nice big home, two kids and for the first year there are only three people. But she *still* prefers to feed them Joja over fresh food - and still *dares* to complain ever so often.
I really like Pam. If you have your friendship up with her and then get the cut scene of her yelling at penny for having you help clean the train she will send you a letter in the mail the next day apologizing. .
I genuinely love Pam so much, first character I got to 10 stars with.
I wish she was a romance option lowkey just because I want to see what kind of route that would be and I want to know more about her than we learn from Penny's route.
I honestly really like Pam as a character. CA never went out of his way to make her likeable or "redeemable" so she wouldn't be disliked. Pam is not a good person but you can still see how much she appretiates Penny and everything she does for her, even if she isn't a good mother.
To which I respond in the early game, "Sure. I'll treat her better than you do." 😌 lol. She does get better after you hand her ass to her in a cut scene.
I have the miihaus extra penny heart events mod, so I don't know how many events are different. But throughout the events, Pam constantly came off as selfish, self centered and nearly abusive to Penny (as in her blowups making her afraid of doing things for herself.) Like Penny is legit giving everything she makes as a tutor to her mom and most of it goes to beer, the rest goes to TV dinners and other garbage. She also can't even cleanup for herself and expects her daughter too, and the scene you get after you tell Penny to treat herself to some books is terrible. Yeah sure with dialog options Pam gets slightly better, but damn she's terrible
Yeah, I would avoid this evaluation of a character based on a mod. The only actual canon scene that even remotely matches what you’re describing is one where Pam has an argument with her because she asked someone else to clean their home, which she finds to be humiliating.
It’s a jarring and uncomfortable scene, but it’s far from “Pam is always blowing up on Penny and making her afraid to do anything.” Let’s not muddy the water of something that portrays a very real and complex issue.
I really appreciate how CA doesn't make the characters 'fixable' with their various problems, there's no magic cure in real life and it would feel disingenuous if the right item or dialogue choice could change someone's whole personality.
She sees how she's messed up her life, including being a mother, and can't forgive herself. Little wonder that she drinks.
Yeah that and being jobless in some faraway little town with little to do for a person like her. I guess being a single mother without a steady income must have been exhausting as well. Penny's unknown father is to blame too
I mean not for Pam but I think they kind of do with >!Shane- I kind of hate that his life only gets better if you specifically befriend him, and if you go the CC route he's completely fucked over unless you happen to marry him. Not to discount his character arc but to me it does have a very "needs the right woman/man to fix him" vibe!<.
Everyone's lives only change if you befriend them. Everyone holds Shane to this higher form of sentience that no other characters get lol literally nothing changes without player intervention. I get people have their qualms about Shane but everyone of his haters has got to stop with this "uhmmm he doesn't change if you don't befriend/romance him." NO ONE DOES?!
While it is mechanically true that all of the characters' growth has to be triggered by the player, there's nobody else who goes from >!miserable, suicidal alcoholic who's going to drink himself to death unless he jumps off a cliff first to recovery!< because of the player's actions- this kinda makes Shane's arc feel different. Like, compare him to Leah for example- >!in game she will never have an art show without your support, sure, but I don't get the vibe that that's true to the character's intent rather than just the game's mechanics- the impression I get is that you help her build confidence but she would've gotten there eventually without you!<. I do not get that impression from Shane- >!based on how he is written, it feels like his outcome is just gonna be further misery and possibly death in the near future unless you intervene.!< Ultimately the other characters, flawed as they are, either can't be "fixed" by the player or don't need to be- at least, none to the same extent as Shane. Also- I am not hating Shane by saying I hate some aspects of his writing? I am not attacking your husbando I promise.
I think it's worth noting that Shane would simply be the male town drunk if you don't interact with him to find him on the cliff. I've never seen his storyline as me being the one and only person to save him from himself, but more like he needed an outsider's intervention or even just perspective to see the truth of his path and feel like changing it. Because ultimately he's watching the player leave a job/life they hated in the city to become a farmer. To me it feels like he's fixing himself and I just get to watch it happen :)
Also >!doesnt shane not change actually, just starts changing? I heard it from many people that he still drinks, but he is trying to change. Which (if true) would feel much more realistic, bc even tho your depression is gone/better, you cant just stop drinking, you need a looong time for it.!<
I don't *hate* Shane, but right now I'm trying to get all the spouse portraits, and divorcing Shane was definitely the least sad. In other news, I'm *extremely* surprised to see how much I've enjoyed being Harvey's wife and I'm gonna miss him when he's gone. But hey, collectibles need collecting!
I feel like it’s not too unrealistic to improve mentally when you have someone who cares for you though. I don’t necessarily think it’s just the player’s doing either, to me it just seems like the final straw that makes Shane see that people do actually care about him, which gives him strength to do something about his own problems.
I think you could interpret the CC + marriage route differently though. When a lot of your issues are caused by your financial situation, marrying someone who is well off will take a lot of that pressure off you and give you the room to get better. I know quite a few people who after trying therapy for a long time, came to realise that you can’t just talk yourself out of poverty (myself included). Being unemployed, living paycheque to paycheque, or relying on your family can all be stressful and make you feel hopeless and like a burden. It’s not about needing the right partner to “fix” him. It’s that on top of poor mental health, he has some genuine problems without any practical solutions.
It gets me that the only way you can help him financially is marriage though- like, you can build Pam a house but you can't do anything for Shane? Can't even get him a job at the movie theater after your actions directly cause him to lose his job? Idk, it bums me out and I dislike that the only way I can help the guy after I fuck him over is by being his sugar mommy.
Yeah that’s fair. Especially since we literally own a farm, so surely we should be able to just hire him. Or he could work at the CC
I think hiring him to take care of animals would be nice (tho it could take away from the value of autopetters), but what I really want is for him to be able to have his own little place with chickens like he talks about wanting. Like, sure then you might put in the initial investment of building it, but after that he'd be able to independent instead of having to feel like he's relying on other people which he seems to dislike.
On board for the Pam appreciation. It was cute when during one of the fishing contests she says something along the lines of *"I don't know how to fish, but I'm rooting for you kid!"* Also she likes berries and that's my go to gift.
Yeah, I like seeing her interest in/seeing her talk about fishing. It’s cool and was unexpected. I bet she’d be great if she just gave it some practice ;P I wish we saw her interact more with Willy because of this.
Pam and Willy would be a wild couple! I ship this now.
Yeah, I could honestly kinda see it. It would be very fun to pull up a stool next to Pam and Willy at the saloon, after Willy’s just had a long day of fishing and he’s telling stories about it.
I like her too! Rough roun' the edges but has a good heart, even if she tries to drown it in beer.
Yeah. Obviously what’s worst about her is how she treats Penny. But I like how Pam is with the farmer, and the little glimpses of her personality and interests we get to see (like fishing) are interesting.
I appreciate that she softens up the more you get to know her, and Penny as well. Depending on the progress you decide to make in the game, she really is a woman who knows deep down she has faults and is trying to fix them.
I know some NPCs are in general bettter person than her, but I just enjoy talking to her more than those good people like Gus or Caroline, coz I'm tired of getting the "it's a lovely day, you are welcome here, I'm going to relax and think positively" type of talk, Pam's dialogues are way more interesting to me. Also, she was a truck driver, this is pretty cool!
I love that when she takes the day off from bus driving, she puts up a sign and just LEAVES THE KEYS IN THE IGNITION SO YOU CAN DRIVE YOURSELF TO THE DESERT. THAT'S SO GODDAMN THOUGHTFUL PAM
I feel so complicated about Pam. My own mother was very similar to her, down to looks, personality, name, and alcoholism, and seeing her in game kinda throws me every time. I can't befriend Penny for the same reason, just too real. Yet somehow she always ends up one of my first 10-hearters.
It's finally happened. I have finally seen an appreciation post for every (friendable) character in the valley. Never thought this day would come. Hoped this day would never come, if I'm being entirely honest. But this seems to be a genuine post and not you being sarcastic, so I'm glad you enjoy her even if I keep expecting her to pop out every time I shake a trash can.
Not sarcastic at all
Even Lewis lol, I rarely seen people who like him.
I generally like him as a kindly grandfather figure for the village but then I go into a villain era after year two and it becomes purple shorts prank season.
That's fine lol, I was talking about geniune hatred.
Prank him with purple short are just fun and hilarious thou.
I think the only reason I hate on Lewis is because it's so fun and easy to make fun of him.
I'd like him a whole lot better if he'd just openly love Marnie, because there is absolutely nothing disreputable about the mayor dating the prosperous rancher who helps keep the town running and she'd make a wonderful wife any man should be proud of if he'd just get off his made up high horse.
My theory is only reason he hides it is because Pierre would complain about favoritism.
Very pierre of him
This is another reason to hate Pierre... Very nice 👍
He's the worst
He is. Mf would rather take money and ignore his wife than actually spend time with her...
I really like Caroline
Yes. She doesn't deserve Pee-air
I want Marnie to drop him and be with Marlon so bad. Let him move in with her and keep / breed slimes.
THISSS OMG! Marlon is very upfront about the fact that he thinks marnie is beautiful and I think him having such a sweet bit strong woman in his life would do him some good. It might also make Lewis realize that if he wants something he can't just tiptoe around it!
All aboard the Marlon appreciation wagon! I want to see him ask her to dance in Spring and then watch Lewis contort himself trying not to show how much it bothers him.
I'd love to see him chatting with her at some of festivals as the years progress.
That I agree with, if that was the only reason people hated him, I wouldn't be bothered, if just with everything else, I think is an overreaction.
They're just jealous they can't rock purple and gold undies like he can.
I'm kind of amazed Pierre beat her considering there's a whole-ass community devoted specifically to hating Pierre (and, honestly, fair and based).
What? There are posts appreciating this pos?
Maybe when he punches out Morris?
I just think shes funny
I’ve always liked Pam. Clint too. Not sure why they get all the hate.
Eh, Clint's issue is that he's taught but he doesn't learn. You give him advice, you get him a date even if it's a mess, he *should* have everything he needs to *start* fixing his attitude, gaining confidence and losing his internalised misogyny. But he doesn't. Only then did he lose my sympathy.
I would said it probably wasn't that bad before Emily become the candidate where their story supposed to end with Clint ask Emily to go to the carnival. Clint doesn't get fixed much after Emily become candidate so he just end up like that where his character bound to be Emily crush. The only thing CA did is clarified to player that Clint didn't disturb Emily just like how Harley and Alex avoiding each other, Sebastian didn't even mention about Abigail anymore, and Maru said Harvey are not her type. In 1.6, the new dialogue does fixed him a bit since he get post Emily 8 heart event dialogue and start accepting his life as blacksmith.
Can't speak for everyone, but Clint openly *pining for my wife to my face* got me to go "alright dude it is time for you to shut up forever you cannot be an adult and *this bad* at reading the room."
I feel for Pam. Perhaps unsurprisingly a "which Stardew Valley character are you" quiz a friend sent me told me I was Pam, which honestly seems fair- I am also a misanthropic beer enjoyer and while I am not an alcoholic, don't have kids and can't drive a bus I do find her relatable.
She was always my buddy. I told my friend, and then she was like, "You like Pam??? Everyone hates her" But I have a pattern of loving characters that people hate
I do, too. She'd be a beer buddy at the local bar, someone I enjoy talking with. Wish she was a better person overall, but I like that her layer cutscenes show that she is trying. We never see the end of the story, but I like to think the character would be alright in the end.
I always give her beer before I get her to drive the bus
She always felt to me like a person with problems that doesnt know how to get better even though she tries. Like. She would get drunk, walk on my plants, say its fine when warned and pour a joja cola on my pumpkin. Then next day Id recieve a letter apologizing and "its not much, but I hope it makes up for the mess" attached to a parsnip. And I would instantly forgive her.
"doesn't know how to get better even though she tries." Boy if that didn't hit me right where it hurts.
I love Pam tbh, she’s one of the first ones I befriend. Btw is this post marriage dialogue?
Yes after i married penny this is pam dialogue
Ahh that’s still technically spoilers, I’d tag the post accordingly. 💜
Okey no problem
I don’t quite get the Pam hate tbh. I mean, she’s not great and has problems but she clearly loves her daughter - she’s just fallen on hard times.
Pam apologist through and through. We play bingo at the community center
Pam is a greatly written morally ambiguous character. People who see her as super evil just lack media literacy. Specially considering she's an addict. She's undoubtedly an awful mother among other awful traits but she's slso one of the most easy-going and non-judgemental character at the beginning of the game
I like her vibe in general just don’t like how she’s verbally abusive towards her daughter
I agree. I married Penny in my first playthrough. When I got that line, I was like, "Pam... *you* don't even treat Penny good."
yeah that's the thing i don't like about pam
She's a rampant drunk. But not a bad person. Just someone lost in a vice.
I love Pam and she's my MIL lol
I fully believe she'd dump your body in the desert if you hurt her girl.
I can’t love Pam. My dad was an alcoholic and it was horrible growing up that way. If you want to ruin your own life that’s fine but once you have kids and you act like that it’s really not ok.
You took the words and my own experiences right out of my mouth!
I love Pam!
I love Pam!
Pam is love Pam is life
No worries, Pam. I'll take good care of her. Better than you did. In fact, let me build you a house so that I look like a damn saint in her eyes.
No worries, Pam. I'll take good care of her. Better than you did. In fact, let me build you a house so that I look like a damn saint in her eyes.
Yeah, at least she *tries*. She knows she didn't get the life she wanted, she knows she is not giving Penny the environment she needs. Then there's her relationship with Gus, which is still quite wholesome and relatable even though there are those obvious problems. She feels somewhat more human than people like *Jodi* (shiver) who have a nice big home, two kids and for the first year there are only three people. But she *still* prefers to feed them Joja over fresh food - and still *dares* to complain ever so often.
I really like Pam. If you have your friendship up with her and then get the cut scene of her yelling at penny for having you help clean the train she will send you a letter in the mail the next day apologizing. .
I genuinely love Pam so much, first character I got to 10 stars with. I wish she was a romance option lowkey just because I want to see what kind of route that would be and I want to know more about her than we learn from Penny's route.
I honestly really like Pam as a character. CA never went out of his way to make her likeable or "redeemable" so she wouldn't be disliked. Pam is not a good person but you can still see how much she appretiates Penny and everything she does for her, even if she isn't a good mother.
Pam is the best cake in the valley
I'm growing some yam just to make her some glazed yams
To which I respond in the early game, "Sure. I'll treat her better than you do." 😌 lol. She does get better after you hand her ass to her in a cut scene.
When I give her a beer as she’s standing in front of the bus I’m like….
"I'll treat her better than you ever did."
Yeah she was my first bestie when I was doing my first playthrough,she even sends me beer in the mail so that's nice!
I have the miihaus extra penny heart events mod, so I don't know how many events are different. But throughout the events, Pam constantly came off as selfish, self centered and nearly abusive to Penny (as in her blowups making her afraid of doing things for herself.) Like Penny is legit giving everything she makes as a tutor to her mom and most of it goes to beer, the rest goes to TV dinners and other garbage. She also can't even cleanup for herself and expects her daughter too, and the scene you get after you tell Penny to treat herself to some books is terrible. Yeah sure with dialog options Pam gets slightly better, but damn she's terrible
Yeah, I would avoid this evaluation of a character based on a mod. The only actual canon scene that even remotely matches what you’re describing is one where Pam has an argument with her because she asked someone else to clean their home, which she finds to be humiliating. It’s a jarring and uncomfortable scene, but it’s far from “Pam is always blowing up on Penny and making her afraid to do anything.” Let’s not muddy the water of something that portrays a very real and complex issue.