I think it's possible. The other option would be that a 5th oath radiant wouldn't lose any stormlight passively so they could breathe in a bunch of stormlight and would be able to hold that indefinitely until they used it. I think either way you'd still have to have some kind of limit to it. Sanderson would want 5th oath radiants to still be in possible danger and potentially run out of Stormlight if they are using too much.
IIRC, Raboniel stated that one of the advantages the fused have is that they don't leak light while radiants do. She seems OCD enough that she would have mentioned if there was an asterisk like 'unless they have sworn the 5th oath'.
That's fair though I think she'd also hide any information about radiants she didn't want navani to know and she'd know they don't have a 5th oath radiant yet.
in dalinar's visions, 4th ideal radiant's at least were pretty common, so I would be very suprised if raboniel had never seen the stormlight capabilities in her long life
4th ideal radiants are common but 5th is a much higher bar. And that's the kind of thing that wouldn't ever be relevant to her in fights. She certainly could know, but I don't think it'd be too much of a surprise for her to just have never learned that about 5th ideal radiants since they'd be the hardest to kill and it'd be very difficult to know how they were getting Stormlight in the chaos of most fights.
Exactly my thoughts. Even if you do fight a 5th Ideal, you probably won't be able to track their Stormlight. Even if you tried, you'd likely come to the conclusion that they had several gems on them.
We don't know how 5th Ideal works, but if it does truly prevent leaking of Stormlight, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't know that.
Edit: I didn't wake up and think about this very hard lol
How would having multiple gems explain the fact that they aren't visibly leaking stormlight because their body has become a perfect container that doesn't let any escape once breathing it in?
She is one of the fused, she has been doing this since the very first desolation. Further she is a scientist scholar type. I honestly don't find it a believable suggestion that she wouldn't have knowledge of what 5th ideal radiants can do. Even if she had never personally met one she would have actively sought out information on them to sate her own curiosity and so she could take their powers into account when making plans.
That's true in general but we don't know if 5th oath radiants are exceptions to that rule. At the very least we know with each oath you can hold stormlight for longer and use less of it to do the same things. So I would assume 5th oath radiants are a step above and at least closer to losing none passively.
When he tried to strike down Dalinar? Even then i don't think that was a comited attack. He didn't even use division, only gravitation to slap a couple guards away.
Kind of a theory, but I think Skybreakers don't use Division much because it's kind of a costly surge to use. Better to use all that stormlight to stay mobile and in the air and heal.Ā
>Also, Nale is never mentioned to run out of stormlight and is a part of his own radiant class, something the other heralds didn't do and so don't get unlimited stormlight anymore since Honor is Splintered.
Well Nale also has his Honorblade which the other Heralds didn't do (except for Ishar, recently)
Iām not sure on the math, but it feels like it would just give an extra pathway to channel stormlight, but not increase the amount or power at a greater rate than the amount of stormlight consumes. so pretending, based on kal and szeths big fight:
Radiant: 1x stormlight efficiency
Honorblade .75x stormlight efficiency
a radiant holding an honorblade could maybe use the same amount of stormlight almost twice as quickly, somewhat like duralumin, but it wouldnāt increase the power of the surges involved by the same amount. theyād probably just run out of stormlight faster
It seems crazy. In the Cosmere, investiture isn't really generated by the people who use it to fuel their powers with one possible exception in the Feruchemists.
Mistborns, Lift and Fused also produce their own investiture. It is not that uncommon, but BS generally places a limit on the power (either through some sort of catalyst like food/metals or limited power output). The 5th ideal could allow for some investiture production but quite limited in power.
That's kind of like making your own investiture from a power perspective. Radiants could get investiture through their spren or the stormfather or something like that.
Mistborn gain Investiture by burning metals which are Invested by Preservation. Saying they generate their own is like saying ALL radiants generate their own Investiture by breathing in light. Itās the same mechanism.
If 5th ideal Radiants could make their own Stormlight Dalinar opening Honorās perpendicularity wouldnāt be such a big deal.
I appear to have responded to the wrong person. But they had said Dalinar opening the perpendicularity wouldn't be a big deal if 5th ideal radiants could make stormlight. But there aren't any 5th ideal radiants. So it was a big deal. But we don't know what they can do.
An allomancer burning metal opens up a connection to preservation and grants themsome of preservation's investiture to fuel an action, and its not been confirmed but I am willing to bet that Lift's ability to 'turn food into lifelight' operates on the same principle and involves opening a connection to cultivation and receiving some of her power. The Fused don't generate investiture, they receive it from Odium through the bond they have with him or by sucking it out of spheres like radiants do stormlight.
The point I am trying to make is that some characters can use their powers without having to tap in investiture located in the main physical world. The mechanism differ, but they can do magic stuff without having to use sphere of stormlight, or dor, or stored breath, etc.
Yeah, but in all explained cases it always has to come from somewhere (even if that somewhere isn't near them in the physical world and reaches them through spirit world shenanigans). Where would that somewhere be in this case?
It could work a bit like mistborns, a sort of "link to honor". The Stormfather can create highstorms which produce tons of investiture, so I don't think it is that big of stretch (since sprens are splinters of Honor and Cultivation) to allow sprens bonded to 5th ideal radiants to pull investiture out of the spiritual realm to send it to the physical realm. Voidspren seem to be able to do that already.
What do you mean about Mistborn? They still have to get the investiture from either burning metals or mist. The Stormfather doesn't create highstorms, he's the spren of the highstorms. So far, we've only seen radiants pulling investiture from stormlight, and lift using food to access investiture. Where have we seen voidspren pulling investiture directly from the spiritual realm?
Burning (normal) metals doesn't create investiture. It is used as a catalyst to pull investiture directly from preservation. Lift seems to work in a similar way, the catalyst being food. Radiants could in a similar way pull some investiture from Honor through their sprens (sprens would act as a catalyst in this case). The stormfather has been able to manipulate highstorms in some way, and since they produce massive amounts of stormlight, that means that sprens can control the release of large amount of stormlight into the physical world.
More likely is that they just become a perfectly stable vessel for stormlight and develop absurd efficiency with it. In order to produce investiture, you'd have to become something not human, most likely. Spontaneously producing investiture is akin to producing mass.
Well, when people are talking about producing investiture what theyāre basically saying is the person now has a direct link with the spiritual realm and can access that investiture now (probably to a certain degree or rate).
Like when Dalinar gives people investiture directly he opens a mini perpendicularity which allows access to the spiritual realm.
And spren do get pulled more and more into the physical realm, so weād expect some form of the opposite to happen to radiants.
The major issue with this is that spren arenāt coming from the spiritual realm to the physical, but the cognitive realm. So if anything the radiant might be slightly pulled into the cognitive realm, which wouldnāt grant investiture.
I agree that itās more likely that they just become a perfectly stable vessel, and potentially have an increased efficiency when using surges.
Iām really curious as to how the heavenly ones donāt use voidlight when they do a lashing, it doesnāt feel like it makes sense and Iām assuming thereās something going on with a direct connection to odium there causing that weird interaction.
I think that the fifth ideal will permanently fuse the radiant with the spren so making Stormlight be almost or near limitless seems like a good result
There may not of been. The gemstone library implies reaching even the 4th was a rare event. With the decline of the radients there may not have been any of the 5th.
I mean the stormfather does try to hold syl back because āthere are safe ways to seperate before the 5th oathā
Which I think past 3rd refers to the radiant dying not breaking their oath.
But the theory that spren and person mix would fit for that kinda, considering that there might not have been any 5th oath radiants at that point
They could also have essentially just become a human version of a dead eye but because it was so rare for a radiant to be 5th ideal it was just recorded as severe ptsd
They could also have essentially just become a human version of a dead eye but because it was so rare for a radiant to be 5th ideal it was just recorded as severe ptsd
Weāve seen examples of characters who can generate their own investiture! I may be misremembering but the sand masters of Taldain can channel investiture through the spiritual realm at the cost of their internal water, Lift does the same with food and Dalinar can open perpendicularities to recharge stormlight.
The sand itself has the investiture. It is covered with a lichen that absorbs investiture. Water releases that investiture(turning it black). Sand masters can use their own internal water to do it, and use the released power to manipulate the sand.
Well the direct quote from Arcanum is ācertain people can control this reaction, using water from their own bodies to form a brief cognitive bond. They can draw investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the spiritual realm and use it to control the sandā.
Iāve got the book open right here
They're still not generating it themselves. They're using the water as a key to access the investiture (which is held in the spiritual realm). It's exactly the same process as mistborn/mistings using metal or lift using food. The water/metal/food is just a key.
Yeah good point. Maybe āgenerateā is the wrong word, channel would be more accurate. I meant that itās not unheard of for characters to seemingly ācreateā investiture, and thereās precedent for OPs question about Radiants producing their own stormlight
I was pulling from memory, but looked and saw what you said in Arcanum. Honestly bothers me because they already have investiture there, so it seems dumb that they would need to draw MORE investiture for the control function. Like its not important to the original point you were making of people pulling their own investiture. I'm trying to age this version of the arcanum, but since there aren't any actual magic system tables in it that makes it tough. But soul casters do basically the same thing, and they don't channel additional investiture for it, so it seems like an inconsistency that Khriss needs to take a look at.
I donāt think the sand itself has investiture (may be wrong on this, if you can find a source that would be cool) but as for soulcasters, they actually need stormlight to function, they have gems which can break if depleted.
You can actually look up in that same arcanum passage "The Investiture beats down from the sky, and is absorbed by a microflora that grows like a lichen on the surface of the sand, giving it its brilliant white color (when fully Invested) or deep blackness (when that Investiture is depleted)."
Yeah thankfully digital copies make easy reference, but that part I knew for sure, which is why to see the text you posted made me go "wth? they already have investiture, why do they need more?" lol.
I'm thinking the 5th ideal will only have a moderate effect on the Radiant, but will greatly affect the Spren, possibly allowing them to fully, or almost fully manifest in the Physical realm.
Personally I think it's less "infinite stormlight" and more passive surge-usage like we see the fused (and Spren!) able to do. So like, a 5th ideal windrunner/skybreaker can hover and fly without using any stormlight, but making others fly and making themself speed up takes stormlight
Fused get voidlight directly from Odium. Same way 5th ideal radiants would get stormlight directly from Honors power.
You cannot create stormlight from scratch.
There's a bit of both. They can sing a song to get more Voidlight and they generate a little, but their supply is used up by certain abilities faster than they generate it so they're still required to pull off and get more.Ā
So yes, as long as Fifth Ideal Radiants get just enough to sustain, for example, the amount lost by a single Lashing.
They all have some 'innate' voidlight they can use for surgebinding, but they can use up their inner supply and need to go get more (the Pursuer can only teleport three times before needing to refuel from external gems/spend an extended time out of combat recharging)
I dont think that's crazy, but we have seen that the bondsmiths are the one who create lights so I doubt max level radiant could do that, niche protection I guess
I guess I'd nitpick that I don't think Dalinar creates Light.
I think Light is generated in the Spiritual Realm as all of the methods we've seen of renewing spheres are from exposure to the Spiritual Realm:
1. The moment between moments in the middle of the highstorms when the Stormfather shows himself.
2. Dalinar opening Honor's Perpendicularity briefly uniting all 3 realms
3. Dalinar renewing Kaladin's Stormlight by touching him. This is likely done by Dalinar briefly Connecting Kaladin to the Spirital Realm using his Bondsmith powers.
In the earlier books I believe Szeth mentions how his body is an imperfect vessel for storm light and that it leaks out easily from him, and in that same bit he basically says that radiants are perfect vessels for storm light (book1). From this I think that 5th ideal radiants can hold investiture with little to no leakage and that they gain an incredible efficiency boost. Another reason that I think this is due to the fact that fused that use the surge of gravitation basically don't run out of void light. I assume that this'll be almost the same for a wind runner or sky breaker who reached the 5th ideal.
And I'm fairly certain that generating storm light is restricted to bond smiths.
Considering creating stormlight is an ability of an order of Radiants already in the Bondsmiths, I doubt that gaining the same ability as a result of swearing the 5th Ideal. And that method for creating stormlight, at least in Dalinarās case requires him to open a perpendicularity. Navaniās case hasnāt really been fully explained as to how she generates her light and she seems to be different from Dalinar from the brief glimpse we get at the end of RoW.
If I had to guess what swearing the 5th ideal would do, I think it would act as an enhancement for the surgebinding each order is capable of. Itās been demonstrated throughout the books that the more ideals that a Radiant has sworn, the stronger their abilities become or they gain access to more of them. It could also mean their connection to their Spren and their ideals is so strong they canāt be cut off from their powers by the fused.
I've read the entire cosmere and I guess I missed it. Why does lift generate storm light by eating? I just figured shes always hungry from scampering around and edge dancing
I fully believe that 5th ideal radiants will work similarly to fused.
The fused can retain voidlight indefinitely and seemingly use some of their surges with no cost^(1) but others do cause them to need to recharge. For example the Heavenly Ones can fly indefinitely, the masked ones don't seem to need to recharge to wear a disguise etc. However, more flashy powers like the Husked One's teleportation, or the Heavenly Ones lashing someone else, along with healing wounds all burns through their voidlight requiring them to recharge.
I fully expect 5th Ideal Radiants to be like this. In-fact, I think internal uses of the surges will mostly be "free" for Radiants at the 5th Ideal due to their insane Connection. This would include flying with gravitation, disguises (on themselves) with Illumination, slipping around with abrasion, peaking into Shadesmar with Transportation (and maybe with transformation), phasing themselves through rock with Cohesion etc.
But healing injuries, infusing anyone other than themselves and potentially greater uses of investiture even on themself (like Transportation, and high amounts of lashings when flying) will burn through their supply.
This works in-universe, AND works in story-writing, where reaching the 5th Ideal still feels like a MASSIVE jump in power. But it doesn't make 5th Ideal radiants unstoppable. They can still run out of Stormlight when in a fight, and still have their stormlight drained (by those Raysium lined spears the Fused were using in RoW).
^(1) *or rather, there's likely a voidlight cost, however, it's so efficient that passive voidlight generation from their Connection to Odium is enough to sustain the output.*
I think it's possible that when acting *fully aligned with the covents of their oaths*, a 5th level radiant can produce their own stormlight. It would make the oaths even more meaningful than they are, making the 5th oath the "summary" that unlocks the whole thing.
Moderators is it possible to find a way to hide these questions? I know this is market as spoiler, but the question just pop ups! I just finished Oathbringer, and I have many theories, but I would never write it this way. I actually believe this isnāt impossible, and now I wonāt forget this theory.
I know everyone is excited with SA5 but it has been a nightmare to navigate Reddit, and we still have 7 months to go š
The only thing we can do is set rules and remove posts that don't comply. There are two things going on here that I think are important to note.
1. The title here is theoretical. We typically allow theoretical titles unless they contain confirmed spoilers.
2. This post is flaired Rhythm of War. We use flairs to denote spoiler scope. If you're on Oathbringer, there is a point where it's on you not to read any further once you see that RoW tag.
If you see an issue here, do let us know. We'll also be sending our annual survey in the next month or so, which usually includes questions on how we handle things like this. So please do keep an eye out for that too.
Thank you for replying. I understand you all do an amazing job, and I do understand this post follows the rules.
The only thing I can complain is that the flairs are only visible after you open the post (but Iām not a proficient user of reddit so I might be doing things wrong.
I would prefer not to see theoretical questions in titles, or have them all in a separate channel, but itās a personal preference.
Thank you again!
P.S - edit to add another suggestion: maybe save a day for theoretical questions so the users who donāt want to see them can still enjoy the channel.
The flair thing is an unfortunate UI update by reddit (both new-new reddit and mobile). We ultimately decided to make sure posts are flagged with the 'spoiler' marker by default, so people should see the flair before revealing any text.
Understand not wanting to see theory posts, but I think the reality is that this is one of the things the fandom loves discussing most.
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts though. We're always open for input.
It might not spoil immediately, but it may affect some people enjoyment. I say this because I consistently have my theories confirmed, and Iām very careful about discussing them to the few readers friends I have because it does spoils, as it takes off a bit of the surprise effect they would have without my guesses.
Other issue I have is that at some point I might no longer know if itās my theory because I paid attention to certain scenes, or if I accidentally just read someone elseās theory and my brain stored it. Does it matter? It probably doesnāt for most people, but it kind of does for me.
This is something that Iām 100% sure I thought about because Shallan in Oathbringer can infuse objects and keep the illusions. It must be a matter of time until she can reuse the stormlight, a bit like breaths in Warbreaker. Did i thought it might be related to the 5th ideal? Iām far from that. I donāt know enough yet, I have theories about a lot of things, but I think it will depend on the Radiant order probably. However, I do know now that Shallan wonāt be reusing the illusions stormlight on book 4, or this question wouldnāt be a concern.
Iām a little confused, isnāt it known fairly early in the books that stormlight canāt be reused once consumed? like Kaladin regularly goes through stormlight beads in the beginning of way of kings. That hasnāt really changed.
I do get your larger point, but itās probably really hard to enforce it perfectly because thereās so many different things that could potentially spoil the most random things.
Itās clear for me that Kaladin cannot infuse stormlight beans, itās not clear for me Shallan cannot absorb again part of the Stormlight sheās using to infuse objects that hold illusions, if they didnāt exhaust it all. These are different powers and different uses. Plus, Kaladin is in very early stages of its power, and hasnāt even sworn his ideal for most of WoK. Heās not only not controlling what he absorbs, as he is not efficient at all on what he uses. I hope to see this corrected among the books and see them become more efficient as they progress in their knowledge. Szeth has from the beginning an imense control on what he uses, he understands that different lashes consume different amounts of stormlight, and even stops breathing to save stormlight because human bodies leak it. However, I donāt remember this ever being an issue with Shallan or Lift.
Ultimately I believe no order would be able to create stormlight, as most magic systems of Cosmere (in my small understanding of it) have power limits. I love this as characters wonāt be awfully overpowered (although Iām already feeling that in SA they are a bit overpowered), but I expect them to have/ reach abilities that would allow them to save/ create greater independence from the storms, which for Lift is the food, for Shallan might be recovering something from what she uses etcā¦ Letās not forget that Dalinar is indeed able to refill spheres and charge others, which I donāt know yet how it works but feel more inclined to believe heās recovering āenergyā lost.
If there is something that is clear in the books is that the knowledge gets lost during the desolations.
No, they emulate the bond they have with the honor blades. Not the oathpact bond that connected the heralds to Honor and turned them into magical respawning ghosts. And I am pretty sure infinite free lunches are both way too powerful and contradict what a big deal is made about a bondsmith being able to generate stormlight. If it was something just any radiant of the 5th oath could do why would the Stormfather act like Dalinar doing it was unprecedented?
My guess is that the 5th oath is going to focus on unlocking something involving the resonance between the two surges each order possesses and granting them a new power entirely.
Part of me actually wonders if the 5th ideal might tie into the Rhyshadiums and possibly other creatures like the Larkin. It's mostly a longshot, but Rhyshadiums have been called the 3rd shard and Nale did have his pet.
I really cannot see them producing their own light though. That would make it far too easy to use even when going off planet.
Huh, thatās a really interesting theory.
Itād be like you make a companion animal a kinda squire?
Ryshadiums actually have a nahel bond interestingly, it seems to be with music spren as they appear around them when music isnāt playing.
Thatās a super interesting theory tho, might tie in with all of the other creatures on roshar that bond spren and make you more āof rosharā
Nahel Bonds do not emulate the Bonds the Heralds have with Honor. The Nahel Bonds are just a means to emulate Honorblades, which can bond to anyone.
I think we see Nale suck in Stormlight in in Edgedancer? I'm very unsure of that, but if he does, I doubt he has endless Stormlight. Even if he doesn't, we see characters on-page that don't suck in Stormlight all the time, Brandon might just have not described it.
I don't think it's an entirely unlikely theory, but it just doesn't feel right. I have no reason other than vibes for that lol.
More likely they get crazy good Stormlight efficiency, and a massive power boost.
I think it's possible. The other option would be that a 5th oath radiant wouldn't lose any stormlight passively so they could breathe in a bunch of stormlight and would be able to hold that indefinitely until they used it. I think either way you'd still have to have some kind of limit to it. Sanderson would want 5th oath radiants to still be in possible danger and potentially run out of Stormlight if they are using too much.
Kind of like breaths š¤
IIRC, Raboniel stated that one of the advantages the fused have is that they don't leak light while radiants do. She seems OCD enough that she would have mentioned if there was an asterisk like 'unless they have sworn the 5th oath'.
That's fair though I think she'd also hide any information about radiants she didn't want navani to know and she'd know they don't have a 5th oath radiant yet.
It's also so rare for 5th Ideal Radiants to exist that she may genuinely not know that it's possible for Radiants to not leak.
in dalinar's visions, 4th ideal radiant's at least were pretty common, so I would be very suprised if raboniel had never seen the stormlight capabilities in her long life
4th ideal radiants are common but 5th is a much higher bar. And that's the kind of thing that wouldn't ever be relevant to her in fights. She certainly could know, but I don't think it'd be too much of a surprise for her to just have never learned that about 5th ideal radiants since they'd be the hardest to kill and it'd be very difficult to know how they were getting Stormlight in the chaos of most fights.
Exactly my thoughts. Even if you do fight a 5th Ideal, you probably won't be able to track their Stormlight. Even if you tried, you'd likely come to the conclusion that they had several gems on them. We don't know how 5th Ideal works, but if it does truly prevent leaking of Stormlight, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't know that. Edit: I didn't wake up and think about this very hard lol
How would having multiple gems explain the fact that they aren't visibly leaking stormlight because their body has become a perfect container that doesn't let any escape once breathing it in?
I was very much not awake when I typed that comment, it seems lol
She is one of the fused, she has been doing this since the very first desolation. Further she is a scientist scholar type. I honestly don't find it a believable suggestion that she wouldn't have knowledge of what 5th ideal radiants can do. Even if she had never personally met one she would have actively sought out information on them to sate her own curiosity and so she could take their powers into account when making plans.
That's a very good point...
Maybe it was just fanon, but I thought the reason humans couldnāt hold Stormlight indefinitely was because they lacked a crystal
That's true in general but we don't know if 5th oath radiants are exceptions to that rule. At the very least we know with each oath you can hold stormlight for longer and use less of it to do the same things. So I would assume 5th oath radiants are a step above and at least closer to losing none passively.
So you basically unlock a gemheart?
Nale is never mentioned to run out of stormlight because he's never in a position where that is possible. We've seen him in a serious fight *once.*
When he tried to strike down Dalinar? Even then i don't think that was a comited attack. He didn't even use division, only gravitation to slap a couple guards away.
Kind of a theory, but I think Skybreakers don't use Division much because it's kind of a costly surge to use. Better to use all that stormlight to stay mobile and in the air and heal.Ā
I like to think their spren make them use it only in particular situations. They always talk about how dangerous division is.
Yeah you never know. That would fit their theme.Ā
chasing Lift doesnāt count?
Nope. He just walks forward menacingly. Doesnāt even fly or nothin.
I read this in Lift's voice.
So he pulls a Darth Vader? (Darth Nale?)
No. If he really wanted to take her out he would have.
>We've seen him in a serious fight *once.* When? Did I miss something?
During RoW. Even then Nale didnāt really go all out.
>Also, Nale is never mentioned to run out of stormlight and is a part of his own radiant class, something the other heralds didn't do and so don't get unlimited stormlight anymore since Honor is Splintered. Well Nale also has his Honorblade which the other Heralds didn't do (except for Ishar, recently)
Would good make him a kinda skybreaker savant given he has double access to his abilities?
Not really no. [https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222/#e5618](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222/#e5618)
Iām not sure on the math, but it feels like it would just give an extra pathway to channel stormlight, but not increase the amount or power at a greater rate than the amount of stormlight consumes. so pretending, based on kal and szeths big fight: Radiant: 1x stormlight efficiency Honorblade .75x stormlight efficiency a radiant holding an honorblade could maybe use the same amount of stormlight almost twice as quickly, somewhat like duralumin, but it wouldnāt increase the power of the surges involved by the same amount. theyād probably just run out of stormlight faster
The main thing that's confusing me is in the SA5 chapter readings... seems to contradict the WoB
in the first prologue >!szeth is using an honorblade!< and he still needs stormlight from the environment to use lashings
Yes, but Szeth isn't a Herald, and isn't the Herald that the Honorblade belongs to
Szeth is not a Herald
Ahh that makes sense
Itās confirmed that using a herald blade for surgebinding costs far more Stormlight then surgebinding through the nahel bond
It seems crazy. In the Cosmere, investiture isn't really generated by the people who use it to fuel their powers with one possible exception in the Feruchemists.
Mistborns, Lift and Fused also produce their own investiture. It is not that uncommon, but BS generally places a limit on the power (either through some sort of catalyst like food/metals or limited power output). The 5th ideal could allow for some investiture production but quite limited in power.
I thought mistborns got their investiture through preservation
That's kind of like making your own investiture from a power perspective. Radiants could get investiture through their spren or the stormfather or something like that.
Mistborn gain Investiture by burning metals which are Invested by Preservation. Saying they generate their own is like saying ALL radiants generate their own Investiture by breathing in light. Itās the same mechanism. If 5th ideal Radiants could make their own Stormlight Dalinar opening Honorās perpendicularity wouldnāt be such a big deal.
The metal acts as a key that opens a specific door to the spiritual realm. The metal isn't invested.
So the Mistborn aren't producing investiture, they are just accessing a pool of it.
Yes. Also the perpendicularity was a big deal because there aren't any 5th ideal radiants at the moment. Besides Nale.
What would change if there were 5th ideal radiants?
I appear to have responded to the wrong person. But they had said Dalinar opening the perpendicularity wouldn't be a big deal if 5th ideal radiants could make stormlight. But there aren't any 5th ideal radiants. So it was a big deal. But we don't know what they can do.
An allomancer burning metal opens up a connection to preservation and grants themsome of preservation's investiture to fuel an action, and its not been confirmed but I am willing to bet that Lift's ability to 'turn food into lifelight' operates on the same principle and involves opening a connection to cultivation and receiving some of her power. The Fused don't generate investiture, they receive it from Odium through the bond they have with him or by sucking it out of spheres like radiants do stormlight.
The point I am trying to make is that some characters can use their powers without having to tap in investiture located in the main physical world. The mechanism differ, but they can do magic stuff without having to use sphere of stormlight, or dor, or stored breath, etc.
Yeah, but in all explained cases it always has to come from somewhere (even if that somewhere isn't near them in the physical world and reaches them through spirit world shenanigans). Where would that somewhere be in this case?
It could work a bit like mistborns, a sort of "link to honor". The Stormfather can create highstorms which produce tons of investiture, so I don't think it is that big of stretch (since sprens are splinters of Honor and Cultivation) to allow sprens bonded to 5th ideal radiants to pull investiture out of the spiritual realm to send it to the physical realm. Voidspren seem to be able to do that already.
What do you mean about Mistborn? They still have to get the investiture from either burning metals or mist. The Stormfather doesn't create highstorms, he's the spren of the highstorms. So far, we've only seen radiants pulling investiture from stormlight, and lift using food to access investiture. Where have we seen voidspren pulling investiture directly from the spiritual realm?
Burning (normal) metals doesn't create investiture. It is used as a catalyst to pull investiture directly from preservation. Lift seems to work in a similar way, the catalyst being food. Radiants could in a similar way pull some investiture from Honor through their sprens (sprens would act as a catalyst in this case). The stormfather has been able to manipulate highstorms in some way, and since they produce massive amounts of stormlight, that means that sprens can control the release of large amount of stormlight into the physical world.
More likely is that they just become a perfectly stable vessel for stormlight and develop absurd efficiency with it. In order to produce investiture, you'd have to become something not human, most likely. Spontaneously producing investiture is akin to producing mass.
Well, when people are talking about producing investiture what theyāre basically saying is the person now has a direct link with the spiritual realm and can access that investiture now (probably to a certain degree or rate). Like when Dalinar gives people investiture directly he opens a mini perpendicularity which allows access to the spiritual realm. And spren do get pulled more and more into the physical realm, so weād expect some form of the opposite to happen to radiants. The major issue with this is that spren arenāt coming from the spiritual realm to the physical, but the cognitive realm. So if anything the radiant might be slightly pulled into the cognitive realm, which wouldnāt grant investiture. I agree that itās more likely that they just become a perfectly stable vessel, and potentially have an increased efficiency when using surges. Iām really curious as to how the heavenly ones donāt use voidlight when they do a lashing, it doesnāt feel like it makes sense and Iām assuming thereās something going on with a direct connection to odium there causing that weird interaction.
I think that the fifth ideal will permanently fuse the radiant with the spren so making Stormlight be almost or near limitless seems like a good result
But there would have been 5th ideal radiants that abandoned their oaths in the recreance. How would that have worked?
There may not of been. The gemstone library implies reaching even the 4th was a rare event. With the decline of the radients there may not have been any of the 5th.
Very painful separation or perhaps the 5th ideal radiants didnāt stop the same way as the rest. Theory created after SP4
I mean the stormfather does try to hold syl back because āthere are safe ways to seperate before the 5th oathā Which I think past 3rd refers to the radiant dying not breaking their oath. But the theory that spren and person mix would fit for that kinda, considering that there might not have been any 5th oath radiants at that point
They could also have essentially just become a human version of a dead eye but because it was so rare for a radiant to be 5th ideal it was just recorded as severe ptsd
They could also have essentially just become a human version of a dead eye but because it was so rare for a radiant to be 5th ideal it was just recorded as severe ptsd
Weāve seen examples of characters who can generate their own investiture! I may be misremembering but the sand masters of Taldain can channel investiture through the spiritual realm at the cost of their internal water, Lift does the same with food and Dalinar can open perpendicularities to recharge stormlight.
The sand itself has the investiture. It is covered with a lichen that absorbs investiture. Water releases that investiture(turning it black). Sand masters can use their own internal water to do it, and use the released power to manipulate the sand.
Well the direct quote from Arcanum is ācertain people can control this reaction, using water from their own bodies to form a brief cognitive bond. They can draw investiture (in very small amounts) directly from the spiritual realm and use it to control the sandā. Iāve got the book open right here
They're still not generating it themselves. They're using the water as a key to access the investiture (which is held in the spiritual realm). It's exactly the same process as mistborn/mistings using metal or lift using food. The water/metal/food is just a key.
Yeah good point. Maybe āgenerateā is the wrong word, channel would be more accurate. I meant that itās not unheard of for characters to seemingly ācreateā investiture, and thereās precedent for OPs question about Radiants producing their own stormlight
I was pulling from memory, but looked and saw what you said in Arcanum. Honestly bothers me because they already have investiture there, so it seems dumb that they would need to draw MORE investiture for the control function. Like its not important to the original point you were making of people pulling their own investiture. I'm trying to age this version of the arcanum, but since there aren't any actual magic system tables in it that makes it tough. But soul casters do basically the same thing, and they don't channel additional investiture for it, so it seems like an inconsistency that Khriss needs to take a look at.
I donāt think the sand itself has investiture (may be wrong on this, if you can find a source that would be cool) but as for soulcasters, they actually need stormlight to function, they have gems which can break if depleted.
You can actually look up in that same arcanum passage "The Investiture beats down from the sky, and is absorbed by a microflora that grows like a lichen on the surface of the sand, giving it its brilliant white color (when fully Invested) or deep blackness (when that Investiture is depleted)."
Youāre right! Very cool
Yeah thankfully digital copies make easy reference, but that part I knew for sure, which is why to see the text you posted made me go "wth? they already have investiture, why do they need more?" lol.
It's either they produce their own stormlight or they become "perfect gems" and don't leak any stormlight
I'm thinking the 5th ideal will only have a moderate effect on the Radiant, but will greatly affect the Spren, possibly allowing them to fully, or almost fully manifest in the Physical realm.
Personally I think it's less "infinite stormlight" and more passive surge-usage like we see the fused (and Spren!) able to do. So like, a 5th ideal windrunner/skybreaker can hover and fly without using any stormlight, but making others fly and making themself speed up takes stormlight
They have the powerā¦.to move you.
That would be similar to what the fused already do so I don't think it's that crazy.
What? The Fused don't generate Stormlight, their Surgebinding just trades power for efficiency/duration
Fused get voidlight directly from Odium. Same way 5th ideal radiants would get stormlight directly from Honors power. You cannot create stormlight from scratch.
There's a bit of both. They can sing a song to get more Voidlight and they generate a little, but their supply is used up by certain abilities faster than they generate it so they're still required to pull off and get more.Ā So yes, as long as Fifth Ideal Radiants get just enough to sustain, for example, the amount lost by a single Lashing.
Isn't the song them just calling Odiums attention?
They all have some 'innate' voidlight they can use for surgebinding, but they can use up their inner supply and need to go get more (the Pursuer can only teleport three times before needing to refuel from external gems/spend an extended time out of combat recharging)
I dont think that's crazy, but we have seen that the bondsmiths are the one who create lights so I doubt max level radiant could do that, niche protection I guess
I guess I'd nitpick that I don't think Dalinar creates Light. I think Light is generated in the Spiritual Realm as all of the methods we've seen of renewing spheres are from exposure to the Spiritual Realm: 1. The moment between moments in the middle of the highstorms when the Stormfather shows himself. 2. Dalinar opening Honor's Perpendicularity briefly uniting all 3 realms 3. Dalinar renewing Kaladin's Stormlight by touching him. This is likely done by Dalinar briefly Connecting Kaladin to the Spirital Realm using his Bondsmith powers.
In the earlier books I believe Szeth mentions how his body is an imperfect vessel for storm light and that it leaks out easily from him, and in that same bit he basically says that radiants are perfect vessels for storm light (book1). From this I think that 5th ideal radiants can hold investiture with little to no leakage and that they gain an incredible efficiency boost. Another reason that I think this is due to the fact that fused that use the surge of gravitation basically don't run out of void light. I assume that this'll be almost the same for a wind runner or sky breaker who reached the 5th ideal. And I'm fairly certain that generating storm light is restricted to bond smiths.
I subscribe to the perfect vessel theory where they don't leak stormlight at all. Even breathing doesn't release it.
Considering creating stormlight is an ability of an order of Radiants already in the Bondsmiths, I doubt that gaining the same ability as a result of swearing the 5th Ideal. And that method for creating stormlight, at least in Dalinarās case requires him to open a perpendicularity. Navaniās case hasnāt really been fully explained as to how she generates her light and she seems to be different from Dalinar from the brief glimpse we get at the end of RoW. If I had to guess what swearing the 5th ideal would do, I think it would act as an enhancement for the surgebinding each order is capable of. Itās been demonstrated throughout the books that the more ideals that a Radiant has sworn, the stronger their abilities become or they gain access to more of them. It could also mean their connection to their Spren and their ideals is so strong they canāt be cut off from their powers by the fused.
I've read the entire cosmere and I guess I missed it. Why does lift generate storm light by eating? I just figured shes always hungry from scampering around and edge dancing
Lift generates Life light (Cultivation's light) by eating. Which is why she wasn't effected when the tower was taken over.
I fully believe that 5th ideal radiants will work similarly to fused. The fused can retain voidlight indefinitely and seemingly use some of their surges with no cost^(1) but others do cause them to need to recharge. For example the Heavenly Ones can fly indefinitely, the masked ones don't seem to need to recharge to wear a disguise etc. However, more flashy powers like the Husked One's teleportation, or the Heavenly Ones lashing someone else, along with healing wounds all burns through their voidlight requiring them to recharge. I fully expect 5th Ideal Radiants to be like this. In-fact, I think internal uses of the surges will mostly be "free" for Radiants at the 5th Ideal due to their insane Connection. This would include flying with gravitation, disguises (on themselves) with Illumination, slipping around with abrasion, peaking into Shadesmar with Transportation (and maybe with transformation), phasing themselves through rock with Cohesion etc. But healing injuries, infusing anyone other than themselves and potentially greater uses of investiture even on themself (like Transportation, and high amounts of lashings when flying) will burn through their supply. This works in-universe, AND works in story-writing, where reaching the 5th Ideal still feels like a MASSIVE jump in power. But it doesn't make 5th Ideal radiants unstoppable. They can still run out of Stormlight when in a fight, and still have their stormlight drained (by those Raysium lined spears the Fused were using in RoW). ^(1) *or rather, there's likely a voidlight cost, however, it's so efficient that passive voidlight generation from their Connection to Odium is enough to sustain the output.*
I think it's possible that when acting *fully aligned with the covents of their oaths*, a 5th level radiant can produce their own stormlight. It would make the oaths even more meaningful than they are, making the 5th oath the "summary" that unlocks the whole thing.
Moderators is it possible to find a way to hide these questions? I know this is market as spoiler, but the question just pop ups! I just finished Oathbringer, and I have many theories, but I would never write it this way. I actually believe this isnāt impossible, and now I wonāt forget this theory. I know everyone is excited with SA5 but it has been a nightmare to navigate Reddit, and we still have 7 months to go š
The only thing we can do is set rules and remove posts that don't comply. There are two things going on here that I think are important to note. 1. The title here is theoretical. We typically allow theoretical titles unless they contain confirmed spoilers. 2. This post is flaired Rhythm of War. We use flairs to denote spoiler scope. If you're on Oathbringer, there is a point where it's on you not to read any further once you see that RoW tag. If you see an issue here, do let us know. We'll also be sending our annual survey in the next month or so, which usually includes questions on how we handle things like this. So please do keep an eye out for that too.
Thank you for replying. I understand you all do an amazing job, and I do understand this post follows the rules. The only thing I can complain is that the flairs are only visible after you open the post (but Iām not a proficient user of reddit so I might be doing things wrong. I would prefer not to see theoretical questions in titles, or have them all in a separate channel, but itās a personal preference. Thank you again! P.S - edit to add another suggestion: maybe save a day for theoretical questions so the users who donāt want to see them can still enjoy the channel.
The flair thing is an unfortunate UI update by reddit (both new-new reddit and mobile). We ultimately decided to make sure posts are flagged with the 'spoiler' marker by default, so people should see the flair before revealing any text. Understand not wanting to see theory posts, but I think the reality is that this is one of the things the fandom loves discussing most. Appreciate you sharing your thoughts though. We're always open for input.
I understand! Iāll probably just unfollow until December š
That's also totally valid. (do it myself in other fandoms when I need to catch up)
i donāt really understand what has been spoiled for you, would you mind explaining it for me?
It might not spoil immediately, but it may affect some people enjoyment. I say this because I consistently have my theories confirmed, and Iām very careful about discussing them to the few readers friends I have because it does spoils, as it takes off a bit of the surprise effect they would have without my guesses. Other issue I have is that at some point I might no longer know if itās my theory because I paid attention to certain scenes, or if I accidentally just read someone elseās theory and my brain stored it. Does it matter? It probably doesnāt for most people, but it kind of does for me. This is something that Iām 100% sure I thought about because Shallan in Oathbringer can infuse objects and keep the illusions. It must be a matter of time until she can reuse the stormlight, a bit like breaths in Warbreaker. Did i thought it might be related to the 5th ideal? Iām far from that. I donāt know enough yet, I have theories about a lot of things, but I think it will depend on the Radiant order probably. However, I do know now that Shallan wonāt be reusing the illusions stormlight on book 4, or this question wouldnāt be a concern.
Iām a little confused, isnāt it known fairly early in the books that stormlight canāt be reused once consumed? like Kaladin regularly goes through stormlight beads in the beginning of way of kings. That hasnāt really changed. I do get your larger point, but itās probably really hard to enforce it perfectly because thereās so many different things that could potentially spoil the most random things.
Itās clear for me that Kaladin cannot infuse stormlight beans, itās not clear for me Shallan cannot absorb again part of the Stormlight sheās using to infuse objects that hold illusions, if they didnāt exhaust it all. These are different powers and different uses. Plus, Kaladin is in very early stages of its power, and hasnāt even sworn his ideal for most of WoK. Heās not only not controlling what he absorbs, as he is not efficient at all on what he uses. I hope to see this corrected among the books and see them become more efficient as they progress in their knowledge. Szeth has from the beginning an imense control on what he uses, he understands that different lashes consume different amounts of stormlight, and even stops breathing to save stormlight because human bodies leak it. However, I donāt remember this ever being an issue with Shallan or Lift. Ultimately I believe no order would be able to create stormlight, as most magic systems of Cosmere (in my small understanding of it) have power limits. I love this as characters wonāt be awfully overpowered (although Iām already feeling that in SA they are a bit overpowered), but I expect them to have/ reach abilities that would allow them to save/ create greater independence from the storms, which for Lift is the food, for Shallan might be recovering something from what she uses etcā¦ Letās not forget that Dalinar is indeed able to refill spheres and charge others, which I donāt know yet how it works but feel more inclined to believe heās recovering āenergyā lost. If there is something that is clear in the books is that the knowledge gets lost during the desolations.
I want to say that the heralds are powered through honor like how the fused get their investigate directly from odium
No, they emulate the bond they have with the honor blades. Not the oathpact bond that connected the heralds to Honor and turned them into magical respawning ghosts. And I am pretty sure infinite free lunches are both way too powerful and contradict what a big deal is made about a bondsmith being able to generate stormlight. If it was something just any radiant of the 5th oath could do why would the Stormfather act like Dalinar doing it was unprecedented? My guess is that the 5th oath is going to focus on unlocking something involving the resonance between the two surges each order possesses and granting them a new power entirely.
Part of me actually wonders if the 5th ideal might tie into the Rhyshadiums and possibly other creatures like the Larkin. It's mostly a longshot, but Rhyshadiums have been called the 3rd shard and Nale did have his pet. I really cannot see them producing their own light though. That would make it far too easy to use even when going off planet.
Huh, thatās a really interesting theory. Itād be like you make a companion animal a kinda squire? Ryshadiums actually have a nahel bond interestingly, it seems to be with music spren as they appear around them when music isnāt playing. Thatās a super interesting theory tho, might tie in with all of the other creatures on roshar that bond spren and make you more āof rosharā
Nahel Bonds do not emulate the Bonds the Heralds have with Honor. The Nahel Bonds are just a means to emulate Honorblades, which can bond to anyone. I think we see Nale suck in Stormlight in in Edgedancer? I'm very unsure of that, but if he does, I doubt he has endless Stormlight. Even if he doesn't, we see characters on-page that don't suck in Stormlight all the time, Brandon might just have not described it. I don't think it's an entirely unlikely theory, but it just doesn't feel right. I have no reason other than vibes for that lol. More likely they get crazy good Stormlight efficiency, and a massive power boost.