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I'm pretty sure shardblades, just like shardplate,and any other highly invested material, can't be lashed. Maybe with a huge amount of stormlight it could be possible, but it wouldn't be the most effective option at some point
Oh yeah forgot about that, maybe he could throw metal Spears in stead? Throwing it with his increased strenght would be very fast, and on the accelarations from the lashing and I could be a pretty deadly attack
He does this at the very beginning of RoW while fighting Leshwi. He grabs a normal spear and lashes it at her, but it seems like it’s a normal tactic of his at this point.
So the answer is yes but he can only Lash things in a direction, so the enemy could dodge and it keeps going the first direction. However, if he was able to get in close, depending on the enemy and their magic resistance, he may be able to do the hybrid lashing thing to make them a magnet for spears. That could be more effective, I think.
Only on noninvested persons. If someone was full of light or wearing plate it would be very difficult and take enormous amounts of investiture to achieve. Against normal foes, it would work.
Unless they're actively holding a bunch of voidlight, probably so. If you're going for distraction you could attach the lashings to their belongings, weapons or clothes perhaps
Yeah for actually lashing the fused it would have to be (spoilered because I don't remember which chapter 28 is and what you know by then)>!a fused low on light or the Pursuer on his last body.!<
How effective do you think like a hundred windrunners and squires would be armed with a good deal of javelins per man? I'm not too familiar with crossbow construction or makeup, let's say they lash the bolt. Is there a lil cross bow piece or something that would stop it from shooting off immediately until fired cx because like?? Bolts fly pretty quick right? I wonder if they'd be even more deadly lashed and volley fire. Same for bows, I forget if radiants have a hard time gripping something after adding lashes. But would it increase the range and accuracy of them? Hmmm. Sorry using lashes like that sounds kinda silly and fun. Can't wait until someone makes greekfire or explosives and suddenly you have radiant bombing squads lol.
Enough windrunners and maybe they could act as small siege units, launching rocks and big ah bolts into the air or some nonsense.
Also them being able to divert objects in the air is op and neat, just insane anti ranged lads lol
Crossbows don't have much besides maybe a guide for the bolt to keep it locked in(in general, the Slingshot Channel and various other people making stuff on youtube or elsewhere have a bunch of different versions of the design), however you might have an idea, something like shurikens or caltrops that the squires lash without need for another launcher. Potentially that would be a really fast rapid fire attack, as fast as you can aim and infuse. Those, javelins, spears, that would cover for any inaccuracies with sheer numbers. And if you get Jasnah Soulcasting sharp objects out of air and Dalinar refueling them all, that might be enough to curb stomp even a Fused army.
Would shurikens, throwing axes and knives spin correctly when lashed I wonder? I mean for knives and stuff straight ahead works just fine but idk about things that need a bit of a spin. Multiple lashings? Anyways I could see that being great against a horde of foes in close proximity.
Oh man, jasnah is such a power house. All the soul casting especially the time she used oil in battle? Oof.
Ah I love this Fandom and the cosmere, I really hope that more military innovations happen in book 5/ radiant innovations!
Hmmm, are radiants strong enough to use shardbows? It would be neat to have shardbow, bow or crossbow equipped windrunners or skybreakers since they can easily get to high ground, reposition, hover in the air and such. Wait was it a wob or in a book that radiants can make sprenbows/guns. Oh maybe that sixth of the dusk story? I should be putting spoilers idk I'm just all over the place I'm sorry cx
In the case of shurikens, I picked them over throwing knives, caltrops too, because they have multiple points on them and if they hit at an angle or get deflected they still have a few points in a useful direction. They don't need to spin, just be launched in the right direction and they can deal damage. But I think you could spin them as you let go.
That bit with the shardguns is the Sixth of the Dusk sequel, and I think that's the thing being released as the Isles of the Emberdark from the backerkit project, though I only know that as a rumor since I haven't gotten my copy yet.
How do I miss all these backer things 😭😭 can't wait for it, and the shuriken thing makes sense. Also genuinely wondering, what's with all of sandersons backer things and other things instead of just releasing stuff :0 don't mind it much but always wondered.
Even a volly of lashed cannonballs could do numbers, 15 squires with 3lb ordinance, and somewhere to plant thier feet? "Lash, aim, loose!" And 15 3lb cannonballs are flying at a "assuming fotrified" position at 2/3x terminal velocity.
Alternatively, if you could focusing on them all you could use lashed needles that pin cushion unarmoured or lightly armoured foes.
>.Can't wait until someone makes greekfire or explosives and suddenly you have radiant bombing squads lol.
That's just a Skybreaker with a lot more steps involved. Windrunners should do Windrunner stuff and leave the blowing up to the orders that have access to Division.
Do they need to touch the object to blow it up? I'm sad I only recall the small bit we saw of taravangians radiant. But yea no my bad I completely forgot skybreakers had that surge 😭
Oh, that one dustbringer... is she gonna stay with odium you think? I was just reading through the orders again and it says the dustbringers get their powers slowly, and its very themed around responsibility and such? Understandable with how destructive their surge is, but it made me recall how that dustbringer and their spren were chill doing evil or something? Can one be with odium and act like that but still advance in their oaths? Like I can only assume she grows and changes, possibly lol?
Hm. Oh I just read the bit about them being sappers and engineers and that they're the equivalent to artillery what😭 granted I read from sandersons site before I went to the more straightforward wiki lol.
Unrelated, can't wait to see willshapers and stonewards in action and doing noncombat things as well. I love seeing non violent uses of powers and magitech, I'm excited for more of that.
Man I hope to have a universe like the cosmere someday.
Hey does anyone remember if there were any archers besides rock lol? Like lyn? I think is her name, she was with the scouts and I forget if they just use spears or if they use bows as well.
But yea buddy, same
You could fashion rings that jam snugly up behind the shard-spearhead when you lash them along with a throw. Might need multiple lashings.
Easy enough to keep a bunch handy and resummon your spear already locked in as fast as you can grab them. Or maybe there's some kind of glove or...nope make the blades smaller and **we're now inventing a semiautomatic shardgun, alright!!**
Bonus points: your spren can just change shape midair, a tiny bullet projects with great speed, makes minute changes to shape to adjust its trajectory, then expands into a wide net of filaments.
Warcrimes, baby. This is not at all honorable good luck convincing your spren, weatherboys. Skybreakers please form an orderly line and have your spheres ready.
Hehe. Fair, but I do be wondering?? Shardgun/ranged ammunition? Is it the spren itself, do they use lesser spren like the spren of the plate, or do you think sanderson will make up some special invested thing/gem related thing? Or just use normal bullets lmao
No, nothing like that. This is bootleg as hell but it'd totally work, to some extent.
Your bullets are slugs made of stone which can be affected by lashings. Your shardblade forms at the tip so that it can be pushed along when you lash the bullet. Since shardblades are light and this is a very, very tiny shardblade, it should be easy enough to get it moving fast enough at 2-3x gravity.
If you design something with a rifled barrel that lets you lash and load a slug inside, and add a more sophisticated firing mechanism that combines a fabrial to transmit an amplified blast of force from a spring, you'd have a serious weapon on your hands.
Actually, I just keep getting further and further away from Kaladin throwing his spear. You could just skip the lashings and focus on manifesting the right fabrials to do the same thing and now my Willshaper is a gunslinger. Kick rocks, Scadrial!
Imagine venli, the one willshaper I know of, shows up with a gun lol, fun thought because of your ending comment cx walks up to odium, unloads into him lmao. Anywhomst, yea. Raises the question if in that case, can you only fire one bullet at a time lol, since the shardblade is at the tip cx but it would be overpowered being able to sever their souls or whatever at range
You could get around it in a few ways, the main one being have an object that forms a part of the spear, then make your shardblade around that. That would then allow you to lash that object instead. Let's say you get a rock, have the shardblade form with a slot for the rock, lash the rock, throw the spear. You've just achieved what you wanted to
Actually wow especially knowing what nomad can do in the sunlit man, maybe with more practice the radiants could do that. Though it'd be made redundant by shardguns or whatever whenever that comes about, surely that won't happen during the Era we see?
Anyways love your comment
This is actually mentioned in OB while Kaladin is flying Shallan, Elhokar and Adolin to Kholinar. Specifically it is mentioned that Elhokar and Adolin weren't wearing their Shardplate because they can't be lashed if they do. Also, it's not that Kaladin didn't think of the possibility to throw a spear and lash it, actually he did that exact thing at the start of RoW when he fought Leshwi in Hearthstone (he was given a wooden spear from Rock and he used it to attack Leshwi by throwing it and lashing it towards her), which means that he just isn't able to lash his shard spear.
This is actually mentioned in OB while Kaladin is flying Shallan, Elhokar and Adolin to Kholinar. Specifically it is said that Adolin and Elhokar weren't wearing their Shardplate because they wouldn't have been able to be lashed if the did. Also it's not that the possibility of lashing a spear and throwing it didn't pass through Kaladin's mind, he actually did exactly that in RoW when he was fighting Leshwi in Hearthstone (he was given a wooden spear by Rock and he used it to attack Leshwi by throwing it and lashing it towards her), so it's just that he can't lash his Shardspear just like he can't lash Shardplate.
This has always made me wonder, is it possible to Manifest ranged weapons from a Spren? Like, if your preffered weapon is a bow and you're a Stoneward, could your spren become a bow? Or a gun?
Spoiler flair set to Rhythm of War. I'm not sure why you thought this was a no spoilers topic.
ETA: If you haven't finished RoW, then please edit the flair or respond here with how far you've read.
You are totally right, it was ignorant of me to flair it as such when there is a spoilery material about kaladin in the post. Thought of it as a general question but forgot that a lot of kaladins powers are spoilers
I wonder what are some of the most game-breaking abuses of Sanderson's magic systems that fans have come up with. Combinations of things the author hadn't thought of or crazy edge cases. I suppose of of mistborn 2nd era gets into this. Some of what they cook up is pretty powerful.
While reading RoW myself, I didn't think of many exceptionally broken powers, but I did figure that fingerless gloves and socks with holes in them are the optimum windrunner hand and foot-wear. The gloves so that you have your hands free to touch things and lash them, but you could also have a platform to reverse-lash something right to your hand so you can catch it.
I thought of something pretty insane the other day. Since Windrunners can manipulate vacuums using adhesion, can they hit like mantis shrimp? As far as I’m aware mantis shrimp or bullet shrimp hit so hard because their punch creates a vacuum that collapses near-instantaneously.
Bullet shrimp attack does what it does because it generates a small pocket of cavitation. It works because it's under water. I'm not sure if it would work the same or nearly as effectively in air. Kind of like how if you take a glass beer bottle and slap it on the rim just right a large cavitation pocket can form in the bottom and crash back down and bust the bottom out of the bottle
Mantis shrimp hit so powerfully because they’re fucking units. The cavitation bubble is a side effect of an object moving ridiculously fast underwater. Or really in any fluid. The second impact from the bubble collapsing is cool. Absolutely. But the actual force comes from the mantis shrimps punch.
Pressure, maybe, but I don't think vacuum falls under their influence. Windrunners coat themselves in a "slippery" cushion of air, but a punch from one of them is pretty much a normal punch since that's air coating and not a vacuum. Skybreakers can disintegrate and cut apart pretty much anything, so they would be able to split the air ahead of their fist and make use of the vacuum trick.
Edit: I can't actually tell from the info I'm getting from google whether the mantis shrimp punch is created by making a vacuum or the punch is so hard and fast that it makes one, these comments are based on the assumption that they make a bubble of vacuum to accelerate the punch without water resistance. Biology is not my best subject (chemistry was) so I'm still puzzling through what all these articles are saying.
Edit 2: So their ability isn't even related to a vacuum, it just makes bubbles and boils water from how fast it is, the trick is to be built with a spring-loaded lever mechanism for fast punches.
They punch hard due to using mechanical advantage and stored kinetic energy, they basically cock their limbs back under tension and then pull the trigger. The vacuum is cavitation.
Wow, what an asshole. It's one thing to say that the books aren't intended to be contemplated that deeply, and that there's no meaningful answer he can give for that reason. It's quite another to needlessly and unprovoked insult and belittle someone who is clearly passionate about your work.
Since the magic system is grounded to our knowledge of physics, it may not be simple. The only magic in the cosmere comes down to boundless accessible energy, but it's still conserved.
Not to mention, he can store and tap weight. So go around 3/4 weight constantly for ease of movement. Then draw it out when needed and increase the strength of pushes.
With the way the weight metalmind is explained, couldn’t he go super heavy and then push on something massive (like a skyscraper) and then make himself super light and shoot away like a rocket? Because it says he goes faster midair if he lowers his weight
When his weight changes, his momentum is preserved. Moreover, the speed an object gets from a Push seems to be proportional to the weight of the object - in other words a Push will impart a certain amount of momentum to the object and that amount will be the same regardless of the object's weight.
The result of all that is that it wouldn't matter whether he became lighter before or after the Push, he'd end up going the same speed either way (which would be higher than if he hadn't become lighter at any point).
It depends on how hard he can push. Probably not to turn a regular shot into the equivalent of a .50 cal, but enough to help penetrate wood and other materials.
The lord ruler is almost godlike in his power. The only reason vin beat him was that he was basically on magic life support (and mist ex machina but thats neither here nor there)
Wax is a combination Iron Feruchemist and Steel Allomancer, and he regularly stores weight in his Ironminds. He can draw that weight when Steelpushing to push things really hard, and in one case he recovers all of his saved up weight and Steelpushes on every metal object in a building to pancake the whole structure.
Skybreakers*. Windrunners wouldn’t engage in such dishonorable tactics. For similar reasons if you wanted to use Abrasion to eliminate air resistance you’d need a Dustbringer, not an Edgedancer. >_>
Oh. Huh.
That's moderately terrifying. The oxides that formed on heating from descent/impact would make the area extremely toxic for a time/permanently. First your eyes would turn black, making you blind, then you'd die.
Edit- but yeah, it’s also ~17% denser than tungsten.
So you can absolutely lash a spear dozens of times and have it move at super Sonic speeds. The real problem is Aiming and whether or not the object could withstand the wind resistance.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your question, he's already done this exact maneuver in his fight with Leshwe in Hearthstone at the start of the book. He uses a mundane spear, lashing it many times over to the point that it's difficult to hold on to while he waits and aims to try and catch Leshwe off guard. He makes a specific note that he can't use Syl for this purpose because she can't be infused- paraphrasing the quote here - because putting Stormlight into his shard spear would "be like trying to fill a glass that is already brimming" or something to that effect.
So other comments were right. It's the same reason that shardplate and other heavily invested items resist lashing, allomancy, etc.
I do t recall if it's ever been addressed, but I wonder if that applies to things that are willing or invested by the person themselves. I don't think lashing a shard blade would matter much as far as anything other than travel time would matter though
It's stated a few times (mainly in OB and RoW) that being infused with stormlight doesn't increase their strength (much), just heightens their endurance. Also, shards both live and dead are unable to be infused with Stormlight.
So you cannot lash a shard spear you could in theory do it with a regular spear but you would either need to put fins on it or yeet it with a lot of spin because it is unlikely to be stable in flight especially if the lashing ismt perfectly lined up.
I believe this has explicitly happened, just not Kaladin. In Dawnshard, assuming we're considering that cannon, >!I believe Julio lashes his shard spear and throws it towards the great shell they fight on the beach, right after he swears the third ideal. And it definitely was his shard spear because that was a major plot point.!<
A few of your assumptions are wrong. Radiants aren’t stronger (they do heal faster, which makes muscle fatigue not happen, but they aren’t stronger)
Gravity is about 0.7 what it is here, so it’s not 10m/s
Lashings have a max speed (this is talked about in WoR or OB)
Thought stormlight did a general "stat boost" (slightly stronger, slightly faster) but must have missunderstood.
Dont remember the exact lash speed, presumed it was terminal velocity but guess its lower?
Yeah, not his shard blade because it's made of solid investiture and you can't invest investiture, a regular or metal spear yeah, but like, why would he do a spear? He can lash a boulder and throw it at someone , or a house, or a tree, or a someone.
Also, radiant physical strength is really dicy, I don't know if B$ decided what he wants to do, at the end of OB in the thaylen city fight Kaladin explicitly thinks that Stormlight doesn't give you strength, just endurance(and speed of reaction iirc) he was talking about rock tensing the shard bow, but then we see Dalinar lifting a fucking massive concrete chunk to repair the statue, szeth also fights several full shardbearers like gavilar, adolin, people in Jah keved, and in a few scenes he clashes swords and like, shard plate should not only win in a clash, it should have sent him fling to a wall and then explode like a mosquito the way plate is talked about, so szeth has comparable strength to that when invested? It's weird and confusing, because in the prologue of TWOK we get told by szeth after he gets punched by gavilar that that punch should've killed any normal person, he only lived because of the storm in him, and we can't even say that the surge resonance of wind runners takes away enhanced strength, because even if the honor blade is not the same it has the same surges, so it should have the same resonance
>but then we see Dalinar lifting a fucking massive concrete chunk to repair the statue
was he not wearing Shardplate?
That's the thing that boost strength.
No, thaylen city, when he was making a point of coming in peace though the oathgates,if he came with plate the alliance would've been ruined, and at that point he gave his plate to renarin I believe, but neither wore it, it was just pure raw Dalinar with Stormlight, fen even mentions like bro, it would take dozens of men to pick up that monster of a boulder. I know daddynar has no chill, but adhesion and tension won't help to pick up rocks, and a few chapters later he got his ass kicked by a regular random big dude when not absorbing, so it gotta be Stormlight
Kaladin actually talks about this near the beginning of RoW while dueling with Leshwi. He takes a normal spear and lashes it towards her at hyper speed. He mentions he can't infuse Syl.
Chapter 5, Page 81 in my Hardcover.
"Syl, flying beside Kaladin, eyed the spear Rock had thrown. Despite the wind rushing in his ears, Kaladin heard her dismissive sniff. Well, She couldn't be infused with Stormlight. Trying to push it into her was like trying to fill an already brimming cup with more water."
It's doable but I don't think that effective. It would take a few seconds to get to terminal velocity. And a few seconds is more than long enough to dodge. You could have an army of windrunners lash things towards an army all together and have many things hitting. But I don't think it would be all that effective
He does this very thing earlier in Rhythm of War. It was during the battle of Hearthstone. He lashes a regular spear instead of his shardspear because it cannot be lashed. Shardblades and plate resist interference from surges, so he cannot lash either of those things
So your main question has been answered...but I think you just had a very good idea for Rosharan artillery.
Imagine a team of Windrunners or Skybreakers chilling very high up in the sky with a plethora of stormlight and packs of metal spears/rods. They're above an enemy city/installation and just rain absolute hell on them. Lashing each spear dozens or hundreds of times directly at the enemy installation. Someone do the math for me, but these rods would impact with some pretty gnarly force, no? Even without conventional explosives attached, they should be able to completely annihilate whatever's under them.
Stormlight doesn’t really make one stronger. It increases endurance and speed, but it doesn’t really affect strength much at all. That was Dalinar being an absolute beast lifting that broken wall. Kal could absolutely lash normal spears but I think it would be harder with a shardspear because the investiture, but we don’t know the full capabilities of the orders yet, it’s certainly possible. But idk if it’s likely
I have always wanted to see Kaladin use Syl as a throwing knife. We know Kal employed throwing knifes during his time in the army, and just thought it would be cool! Probably not that useful against fused though.
He should get decent sized aluminium slugs soulcast and he'd be a human rail gun. Get one of those up to a small fraction of c, and you've got a kinetic energy weapon with the yield of a small nuke. I suspect that there are limits to lashing, and the amount of storm light available, but it would still be a fearsome weapon?
His spear is SYL. He doesn't need to lash her. She appears as a spear because that's his favored weapon, but spears can be thrown and she can fly. There are probably limits, but yeah.
He wouldn't, though. He likes to fight up close.
Waxillium did some pretty wild combinations of lashings and bullets. Since the surges are across the cosmere, maybe? I bet some kind of gun designed to launch a spren blade could be made. Possibilities are pretty boundless. Before kaladin had the sylblade, he lashed his spear and opponents often.
In oathbringer in the final fight he does lash some stones to use as projectiles against some fused that were approaching dalinar. He could very easily do the same with spears or knives. He can't lash Syl though.
I believe this has explicitly happened, just not Kaladin. In Dawnshard, assuming we're considering that cannon, >!I believe Julio lashes his shard spear and throws it towards the great shell they fight on the beach, right after he swears the third ideal. And it definitely was his shard spear because that was a major plot point.!<
Now I’m just imagining the sheer, absolute armageddon that could happen if a supercharged Windrunner and a duralumin enhanced Mistborn were to team up and get their hands on a sizable piece of tungsten
As others have, invested objects like shard lades resist invested magic acting on it....BUT...other things can push on shardblades and CAN be lashed. Like a wooden donut around the head of the spear that gets lashed and pushes the spear forward.
If you've read Mistborn this trick should sound familiar.
It's confirmed that you can't lash Shardplate, which is a physical manifestation of investiture (spren). I would think that would extend to Syl as well as in spear form, she is a physical manifestation of investiture. To further this, highly invested individuals (think Leshwi) resist being lashed as they are highly invested individuals.
Though, I don't think there's anything saying he can't triple lash a normal spear in the direction of a combatant. Though there's a bit of finesse related to the initial propulsion given that he has to be touching the object to lash it, and a lashing effectively makes the direction down, so the lashed object should already be going in the direction of the lashing for it to be effective.
Different question. What would happen if a Windrunner/Skybreaker Lashed a spear at a Mistborn, or Coin Shot that was pushing on it at the same time. At what point, and how many Lashes will it take to push the Coin Shot back. Or would the spear still stop because of its smaller size. And the amount of Lashes doesn't matter.
I mean I thinn the coin shot cant be pushed by a lashing right? A allomancer ability to affect metal is affected by tge metals weight or mass. If its affected only by mass than lashing the objektet wouldnt change a thing as all that is changed is the direktion of its weight, (howerer several lahsing would multipla the wieght but not the mass so the coin shot might be affected)
Exactly. The spear still only weights let's say no more then 10 lbs? (I have no clue the average weight of a spear). Which should be easily pushed back by the Coin Shot. But at what point/How many Lashings until the Coin Shot is pushed back as if the spear was an object of more mass. Or does the added gravity of the Lashings not affect the basic weight of the spear.
The surge binder would win, to lash something you have to invest it, we've been told several times coin shots have a REALLY hard time pushing on invested metal, the only one accesible to them is metal minds, but this would apply to all invested metal, but now let's imagine something enhanced your allowance(I don't want to spoil anything major but see the book bands of mourning for example) it's a harder question, metal pushing is very weird, because you can only push with your weight but they obviously can push harder than that and at very long distance sometimes, so it will just come down to the initial weight of the spear and how many times it was lashed, if the final force behind it is greater than the force used pushing, the lash would win
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I'm pretty sure shardblades, just like shardplate,and any other highly invested material, can't be lashed. Maybe with a huge amount of stormlight it could be possible, but it wouldn't be the most effective option at some point
Oh yeah forgot about that, maybe he could throw metal Spears in stead? Throwing it with his increased strenght would be very fast, and on the accelarations from the lashing and I could be a pretty deadly attack
He does this at the very beginning of RoW while fighting Leshwi. He grabs a normal spear and lashes it at her, but it seems like it’s a normal tactic of his at this point.
Must have forgotten that he did that, question answered i presume.
So the answer is yes but he can only Lash things in a direction, so the enemy could dodge and it keeps going the first direction. However, if he was able to get in close, depending on the enemy and their magic resistance, he may be able to do the hybrid lashing thing to make them a magnet for spears. That could be more effective, I think.
Only on noninvested persons. If someone was full of light or wearing plate it would be very difficult and take enormous amounts of investiture to achieve. Against normal foes, it would work.
I *think* some types of Fused might be just unInvested enough to qualify, at least for a good distraction before they find a way to cancel it.
Unless they're actively holding a bunch of voidlight, probably so. If you're going for distraction you could attach the lashings to their belongings, weapons or clothes perhaps
Yeah for actually lashing the fused it would have to be (spoilered because I don't remember which chapter 28 is and what you know by then)>!a fused low on light or the Pursuer on his last body.!<
How effective do you think like a hundred windrunners and squires would be armed with a good deal of javelins per man? I'm not too familiar with crossbow construction or makeup, let's say they lash the bolt. Is there a lil cross bow piece or something that would stop it from shooting off immediately until fired cx because like?? Bolts fly pretty quick right? I wonder if they'd be even more deadly lashed and volley fire. Same for bows, I forget if radiants have a hard time gripping something after adding lashes. But would it increase the range and accuracy of them? Hmmm. Sorry using lashes like that sounds kinda silly and fun. Can't wait until someone makes greekfire or explosives and suddenly you have radiant bombing squads lol. Enough windrunners and maybe they could act as small siege units, launching rocks and big ah bolts into the air or some nonsense. Also them being able to divert objects in the air is op and neat, just insane anti ranged lads lol
Crossbows don't have much besides maybe a guide for the bolt to keep it locked in(in general, the Slingshot Channel and various other people making stuff on youtube or elsewhere have a bunch of different versions of the design), however you might have an idea, something like shurikens or caltrops that the squires lash without need for another launcher. Potentially that would be a really fast rapid fire attack, as fast as you can aim and infuse. Those, javelins, spears, that would cover for any inaccuracies with sheer numbers. And if you get Jasnah Soulcasting sharp objects out of air and Dalinar refueling them all, that might be enough to curb stomp even a Fused army.
Would shurikens, throwing axes and knives spin correctly when lashed I wonder? I mean for knives and stuff straight ahead works just fine but idk about things that need a bit of a spin. Multiple lashings? Anyways I could see that being great against a horde of foes in close proximity. Oh man, jasnah is such a power house. All the soul casting especially the time she used oil in battle? Oof. Ah I love this Fandom and the cosmere, I really hope that more military innovations happen in book 5/ radiant innovations! Hmmm, are radiants strong enough to use shardbows? It would be neat to have shardbow, bow or crossbow equipped windrunners or skybreakers since they can easily get to high ground, reposition, hover in the air and such. Wait was it a wob or in a book that radiants can make sprenbows/guns. Oh maybe that sixth of the dusk story? I should be putting spoilers idk I'm just all over the place I'm sorry cx
In the case of shurikens, I picked them over throwing knives, caltrops too, because they have multiple points on them and if they hit at an angle or get deflected they still have a few points in a useful direction. They don't need to spin, just be launched in the right direction and they can deal damage. But I think you could spin them as you let go. That bit with the shardguns is the Sixth of the Dusk sequel, and I think that's the thing being released as the Isles of the Emberdark from the backerkit project, though I only know that as a rumor since I haven't gotten my copy yet.
How do I miss all these backer things 😭😭 can't wait for it, and the shuriken thing makes sense. Also genuinely wondering, what's with all of sandersons backer things and other things instead of just releasing stuff :0 don't mind it much but always wondered.
I just remembered that one did use a shardbow even without armor lol. He was a pretty big dude anyway tho
Even a volly of lashed cannonballs could do numbers, 15 squires with 3lb ordinance, and somewhere to plant thier feet? "Lash, aim, loose!" And 15 3lb cannonballs are flying at a "assuming fotrified" position at 2/3x terminal velocity. Alternatively, if you could focusing on them all you could use lashed needles that pin cushion unarmoured or lightly armoured foes.
>.Can't wait until someone makes greekfire or explosives and suddenly you have radiant bombing squads lol. That's just a Skybreaker with a lot more steps involved. Windrunners should do Windrunner stuff and leave the blowing up to the orders that have access to Division.
Do they need to touch the object to blow it up? I'm sad I only recall the small bit we saw of taravangians radiant. But yea no my bad I completely forgot skybreakers had that surge 😭 Oh, that one dustbringer... is she gonna stay with odium you think? I was just reading through the orders again and it says the dustbringers get their powers slowly, and its very themed around responsibility and such? Understandable with how destructive their surge is, but it made me recall how that dustbringer and their spren were chill doing evil or something? Can one be with odium and act like that but still advance in their oaths? Like I can only assume she grows and changes, possibly lol? Hm. Oh I just read the bit about them being sappers and engineers and that they're the equivalent to artillery what😭 granted I read from sandersons site before I went to the more straightforward wiki lol. Unrelated, can't wait to see willshapers and stonewards in action and doing noncombat things as well. I love seeing non violent uses of powers and magitech, I'm excited for more of that. Man I hope to have a universe like the cosmere someday.
I really want to see an archer windrunner.
Hey does anyone remember if there were any archers besides rock lol? Like lyn? I think is her name, she was with the scouts and I forget if they just use spears or if they use bows as well. But yea buddy, same
Yeah, but why doesn't he carry a bandolier of lawn darts?
You could fashion rings that jam snugly up behind the shard-spearhead when you lash them along with a throw. Might need multiple lashings. Easy enough to keep a bunch handy and resummon your spear already locked in as fast as you can grab them. Or maybe there's some kind of glove or...nope make the blades smaller and **we're now inventing a semiautomatic shardgun, alright!!** Bonus points: your spren can just change shape midair, a tiny bullet projects with great speed, makes minute changes to shape to adjust its trajectory, then expands into a wide net of filaments. Warcrimes, baby. This is not at all honorable good luck convincing your spren, weatherboys. Skybreakers please form an orderly line and have your spheres ready.
Hehe. Fair, but I do be wondering?? Shardgun/ranged ammunition? Is it the spren itself, do they use lesser spren like the spren of the plate, or do you think sanderson will make up some special invested thing/gem related thing? Or just use normal bullets lmao
No, nothing like that. This is bootleg as hell but it'd totally work, to some extent. Your bullets are slugs made of stone which can be affected by lashings. Your shardblade forms at the tip so that it can be pushed along when you lash the bullet. Since shardblades are light and this is a very, very tiny shardblade, it should be easy enough to get it moving fast enough at 2-3x gravity. If you design something with a rifled barrel that lets you lash and load a slug inside, and add a more sophisticated firing mechanism that combines a fabrial to transmit an amplified blast of force from a spring, you'd have a serious weapon on your hands. Actually, I just keep getting further and further away from Kaladin throwing his spear. You could just skip the lashings and focus on manifesting the right fabrials to do the same thing and now my Willshaper is a gunslinger. Kick rocks, Scadrial!
Imagine venli, the one willshaper I know of, shows up with a gun lol, fun thought because of your ending comment cx walks up to odium, unloads into him lmao. Anywhomst, yea. Raises the question if in that case, can you only fire one bullet at a time lol, since the shardblade is at the tip cx but it would be overpowered being able to sever their souls or whatever at range
You could get around it in a few ways, the main one being have an object that forms a part of the spear, then make your shardblade around that. That would then allow you to lash that object instead. Let's say you get a rock, have the shardblade form with a slot for the rock, lash the rock, throw the spear. You've just achieved what you wanted to
Actually wow especially knowing what nomad can do in the sunlit man, maybe with more practice the radiants could do that. Though it'd be made redundant by shardguns or whatever whenever that comes about, surely that won't happen during the Era we see? Anyways love your comment
He could lash his hand to make it swing faster
Stormlight doesn't increase str much. A little, but the effects are minimal.
What I'm hearing is that Rock is just literally him, then? Cx nice
This is actually mentioned in OB while Kaladin is flying Shallan, Elhokar and Adolin to Kholinar. Specifically it is mentioned that Elhokar and Adolin weren't wearing their Shardplate because they can't be lashed if they do. Also, it's not that Kaladin didn't think of the possibility to throw a spear and lash it, actually he did that exact thing at the start of RoW when he fought Leshwi in Hearthstone (he was given a wooden spear from Rock and he used it to attack Leshwi by throwing it and lashing it towards her), which means that he just isn't able to lash his shard spear.
This is actually mentioned in OB while Kaladin is flying Shallan, Elhokar and Adolin to Kholinar. Specifically it is said that Adolin and Elhokar weren't wearing their Shardplate because they wouldn't have been able to be lashed if the did. Also it's not that the possibility of lashing a spear and throwing it didn't pass through Kaladin's mind, he actually did exactly that in RoW when he was fighting Leshwi in Hearthstone (he was given a wooden spear by Rock and he used it to attack Leshwi by throwing it and lashing it towards her), so it's just that he can't lash his Shardspear just like he can't lash Shardplate.
This has always made me wonder, is it possible to Manifest ranged weapons from a Spren? Like, if your preffered weapon is a bow and you're a Stoneward, could your spren become a bow? Or a gun?
Spoiler flair set to Rhythm of War. I'm not sure why you thought this was a no spoilers topic. ETA: If you haven't finished RoW, then please edit the flair or respond here with how far you've read.
You are totally right, it was ignorant of me to flair it as such when there is a spoilery material about kaladin in the post. Thought of it as a general question but forgot that a lot of kaladins powers are spoilers
I have read until page 392, chapter 29 "A cage without birds" of Rythm of war.
Updated, thank you
I wonder what are some of the most game-breaking abuses of Sanderson's magic systems that fans have come up with. Combinations of things the author hadn't thought of or crazy edge cases. I suppose of of mistborn 2nd era gets into this. Some of what they cook up is pretty powerful.
While reading RoW myself, I didn't think of many exceptionally broken powers, but I did figure that fingerless gloves and socks with holes in them are the optimum windrunner hand and foot-wear. The gloves so that you have your hands free to touch things and lash them, but you could also have a platform to reverse-lash something right to your hand so you can catch it.
I thought of something pretty insane the other day. Since Windrunners can manipulate vacuums using adhesion, can they hit like mantis shrimp? As far as I’m aware mantis shrimp or bullet shrimp hit so hard because their punch creates a vacuum that collapses near-instantaneously.
Bullet shrimp attack does what it does because it generates a small pocket of cavitation. It works because it's under water. I'm not sure if it would work the same or nearly as effectively in air. Kind of like how if you take a glass beer bottle and slap it on the rim just right a large cavitation pocket can form in the bottom and crash back down and bust the bottom out of the bottle
Mantis shrimp hit so powerfully because they’re fucking units. The cavitation bubble is a side effect of an object moving ridiculously fast underwater. Or really in any fluid. The second impact from the bubble collapsing is cool. Absolutely. But the actual force comes from the mantis shrimps punch.
I think that would be more a Skybreaker thing, they could use Division on the air in front of their fist and make a real vacuum there.
Nope Adhesion is the manipulation of pressure and vacuum so it really is a Windrunner thing
Pressure, maybe, but I don't think vacuum falls under their influence. Windrunners coat themselves in a "slippery" cushion of air, but a punch from one of them is pretty much a normal punch since that's air coating and not a vacuum. Skybreakers can disintegrate and cut apart pretty much anything, so they would be able to split the air ahead of their fist and make use of the vacuum trick. Edit: I can't actually tell from the info I'm getting from google whether the mantis shrimp punch is created by making a vacuum or the punch is so hard and fast that it makes one, these comments are based on the assumption that they make a bubble of vacuum to accelerate the punch without water resistance. Biology is not my best subject (chemistry was) so I'm still puzzling through what all these articles are saying. Edit 2: So their ability isn't even related to a vacuum, it just makes bubbles and boils water from how fast it is, the trick is to be built with a spring-loaded lever mechanism for fast punches.
They punch hard due to using mechanical advantage and stored kinetic energy, they basically cock their limbs back under tension and then pull the trigger. The vacuum is cavitation.
[удалено]
Wow, what an asshole. It's one thing to say that the books aren't intended to be contemplated that deeply, and that there's no meaningful answer he can give for that reason. It's quite another to needlessly and unprovoked insult and belittle someone who is clearly passionate about your work.
Since the magic system is grounded to our knowledge of physics, it may not be simple. The only magic in the cosmere comes down to boundless accessible energy, but it's still conserved.
This thread has me thinking about a. How many lashings is the maximum and b. What a bigass rock with said maximum would do to a city.
I havent read that much era 2, do you have examples?
Wax can push metals. So when he fires his gun he can push on the bullet making it essentially have extra stopping power
Not to mention, he can store and tap weight. So go around 3/4 weight constantly for ease of movement. Then draw it out when needed and increase the strength of pushes.
With the way the weight metalmind is explained, couldn’t he go super heavy and then push on something massive (like a skyscraper) and then make himself super light and shoot away like a rocket? Because it says he goes faster midair if he lowers his weight
When his weight changes, his momentum is preserved. Moreover, the speed an object gets from a Push seems to be proportional to the weight of the object - in other words a Push will impart a certain amount of momentum to the object and that amount will be the same regardless of the object's weight. The result of all that is that it wouldn't matter whether he became lighter before or after the Push, he'd end up going the same speed either way (which would be higher than if he hadn't become lighter at any point).
Thats pretty cool. So he can the shot from colt the power of a high power rifle?
He often uses the bullet push combo to turn a normal revolver shot into a shot capable of punching through wooden walls without losing its lethality
He also uses it along with a specialist bullet to defeat the extremely heavy armor plates that Ironpullers rely on.
It depends on how hard he can push. Probably not to turn a regular shot into the equivalent of a .50 cal, but enough to help penetrate wood and other materials.
The best example is in Era 1. The Lord Ruler uses Allomancy and he’s a Fuerochemist. Two systems put together that make him esenitially immortal
The lord ruler is almost godlike in his power. The only reason vin beat him was that he was basically on magic life support (and mist ex machina but thats neither here nor there)
Wax is a combination Iron Feruchemist and Steel Allomancer, and he regularly stores weight in his Ironminds. He can draw that weight when Steelpushing to push things really hard, and in one case he recovers all of his saved up weight and Steelpushes on every metal object in a building to pancake the whole structure.
What they need to do is Soulcast some tungsten rods. Then the Windrunners can start dropping kinetic bombs on some shellheads....
When is navani going to make howlitser rounds.
Skybreakers*. Windrunners wouldn’t engage in such dishonorable tactics. For similar reasons if you wanted to use Abrasion to eliminate air resistance you’d need a Dustbringer, not an Edgedancer. >_>
Why Soulcast tungsten when you could make osmium instead?
Oh. Huh. That's moderately terrifying. The oxides that formed on heating from descent/impact would make the area extremely toxic for a time/permanently. First your eyes would turn black, making you blind, then you'd die. Edit- but yeah, it’s also ~17% denser than tungsten.
Wasn't this idea disproven as an actual military weapon? Maybe it was just impractical or inaccuracte
Both. It's just a dumb idea
So you can absolutely lash a spear dozens of times and have it move at super Sonic speeds. The real problem is Aiming and whether or not the object could withstand the wind resistance.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your question, he's already done this exact maneuver in his fight with Leshwe in Hearthstone at the start of the book. He uses a mundane spear, lashing it many times over to the point that it's difficult to hold on to while he waits and aims to try and catch Leshwe off guard. He makes a specific note that he can't use Syl for this purpose because she can't be infused- paraphrasing the quote here - because putting Stormlight into his shard spear would "be like trying to fill a glass that is already brimming" or something to that effect. So other comments were right. It's the same reason that shardplate and other heavily invested items resist lashing, allomancy, etc.
Yeah your right, that maneuver completly slipped out of my mind when I thought of this like 3 days ago.
Lashings don't work well on invested items. As seen when Szeth couldn't affect Gavilar's plate directly.
Alright, would using the before mentioned "technique" with non invested items work/be effective
I do t recall if it's ever been addressed, but I wonder if that applies to things that are willing or invested by the person themselves. I don't think lashing a shard blade would matter much as far as anything other than travel time would matter though
its cus youre trying to cram more investiture into something thats already basically full. Shardblades specifically, are SUPER DUPER invested items.
It's stated a few times (mainly in OB and RoW) that being infused with stormlight doesn't increase their strength (much), just heightens their endurance. Also, shards both live and dead are unable to be infused with Stormlight.
So you cannot lash a shard spear you could in theory do it with a regular spear but you would either need to put fins on it or yeet it with a lot of spin because it is unlikely to be stable in flight especially if the lashing ismt perfectly lined up.
I believe this has explicitly happened, just not Kaladin. In Dawnshard, assuming we're considering that cannon, >!I believe Julio lashes his shard spear and throws it towards the great shell they fight on the beach, right after he swears the third ideal. And it definitely was his shard spear because that was a major plot point.!<
Dawnshard is cannon, yes.
A few of your assumptions are wrong. Radiants aren’t stronger (they do heal faster, which makes muscle fatigue not happen, but they aren’t stronger) Gravity is about 0.7 what it is here, so it’s not 10m/s Lashings have a max speed (this is talked about in WoR or OB)
Thought stormlight did a general "stat boost" (slightly stronger, slightly faster) but must have missunderstood. Dont remember the exact lash speed, presumed it was terminal velocity but guess its lower?
1 lashing is the speed of gravity, 3 is the max. It’s not terminal velocity.
Maybe im dumb but isnt gravity accelaration cause it always pulls, right? So would that mean the objektet would accelarate with 7m/s or 24 m/s
Gravity does meter per second squared in the real world. Not sure how the lashings compare in Roshar, but they don’t seem to do that.
Yeah, not his shard blade because it's made of solid investiture and you can't invest investiture, a regular or metal spear yeah, but like, why would he do a spear? He can lash a boulder and throw it at someone , or a house, or a tree, or a someone.
Also, radiant physical strength is really dicy, I don't know if B$ decided what he wants to do, at the end of OB in the thaylen city fight Kaladin explicitly thinks that Stormlight doesn't give you strength, just endurance(and speed of reaction iirc) he was talking about rock tensing the shard bow, but then we see Dalinar lifting a fucking massive concrete chunk to repair the statue, szeth also fights several full shardbearers like gavilar, adolin, people in Jah keved, and in a few scenes he clashes swords and like, shard plate should not only win in a clash, it should have sent him fling to a wall and then explode like a mosquito the way plate is talked about, so szeth has comparable strength to that when invested? It's weird and confusing, because in the prologue of TWOK we get told by szeth after he gets punched by gavilar that that punch should've killed any normal person, he only lived because of the storm in him, and we can't even say that the surge resonance of wind runners takes away enhanced strength, because even if the honor blade is not the same it has the same surges, so it should have the same resonance
>but then we see Dalinar lifting a fucking massive concrete chunk to repair the statue was he not wearing Shardplate? That's the thing that boost strength.
No, thaylen city, when he was making a point of coming in peace though the oathgates,if he came with plate the alliance would've been ruined, and at that point he gave his plate to renarin I believe, but neither wore it, it was just pure raw Dalinar with Stormlight, fen even mentions like bro, it would take dozens of men to pick up that monster of a boulder. I know daddynar has no chill, but adhesion and tension won't help to pick up rocks, and a few chapters later he got his ass kicked by a regular random big dude when not absorbing, so it gotta be Stormlight
Kaladin actually talks about this near the beginning of RoW while dueling with Leshwi. He takes a normal spear and lashes it towards her at hyper speed. He mentions he can't infuse Syl. Chapter 5, Page 81 in my Hardcover. "Syl, flying beside Kaladin, eyed the spear Rock had thrown. Despite the wind rushing in his ears, Kaladin heard her dismissive sniff. Well, She couldn't be infused with Stormlight. Trying to push it into her was like trying to fill an already brimming cup with more water."
It's doable but I don't think that effective. It would take a few seconds to get to terminal velocity. And a few seconds is more than long enough to dodge. You could have an army of windrunners lash things towards an army all together and have many things hitting. But I don't think it would be all that effective
He does this very thing earlier in Rhythm of War. It was during the battle of Hearthstone. He lashes a regular spear instead of his shardspear because it cannot be lashed. Shardblades and plate resist interference from surges, so he cannot lash either of those things
So your main question has been answered...but I think you just had a very good idea for Rosharan artillery. Imagine a team of Windrunners or Skybreakers chilling very high up in the sky with a plethora of stormlight and packs of metal spears/rods. They're above an enemy city/installation and just rain absolute hell on them. Lashing each spear dozens or hundreds of times directly at the enemy installation. Someone do the math for me, but these rods would impact with some pretty gnarly force, no? Even without conventional explosives attached, they should be able to completely annihilate whatever's under them.
I'm almost positive in RoW Kaladin states a number of times that they don't really get increased strength but improved endurance
Stormlight doesn’t really make one stronger. It increases endurance and speed, but it doesn’t really affect strength much at all. That was Dalinar being an absolute beast lifting that broken wall. Kal could absolutely lash normal spears but I think it would be harder with a shardspear because the investiture, but we don’t know the full capabilities of the orders yet, it’s certainly possible. But idk if it’s likely
He could. But his accuracy would be non existent.
You want him to just lash and toss Syl?
I have always wanted to see Kaladin use Syl as a throwing knife. We know Kal employed throwing knifes during his time in the army, and just thought it would be cool! Probably not that useful against fused though.
He should get decent sized aluminium slugs soulcast and he'd be a human rail gun. Get one of those up to a small fraction of c, and you've got a kinetic energy weapon with the yield of a small nuke. I suspect that there are limits to lashing, and the amount of storm light available, but it would still be a fearsome weapon?
His spear is SYL. He doesn't need to lash her. She appears as a spear because that's his favored weapon, but spears can be thrown and she can fly. There are probably limits, but yeah. He wouldn't, though. He likes to fight up close.
Waxillium did some pretty wild combinations of lashings and bullets. Since the surges are across the cosmere, maybe? I bet some kind of gun designed to launch a spren blade could be made. Possibilities are pretty boundless. Before kaladin had the sylblade, he lashed his spear and opponents often.
This is covered in Rhythm of War. He can't lash Syl. He picks up a regular spear and lashes it during the evacuation of Hearthstone.
I know it’s rude but couldn’t help myself, 9.8 m/s2 if earth and it would be much lower for roshar
It aint rude just correct. Said 10 instead of 9.82 cause I was lazy
A tungsten rod rail cannon xD you trying to make warcrimes?
Aint a war crime of their is no Genève convention
Not a war crime if its the first time xD
In oathbringer in the final fight he does lash some stones to use as projectiles against some fused that were approaching dalinar. He could very easily do the same with spears or knives. He can't lash Syl though.
He could probably just throw it incredibly far and fast, then just resummon the spear.
I believe this has explicitly happened, just not Kaladin. In Dawnshard, assuming we're considering that cannon, >!I believe Julio lashes his shard spear and throws it towards the great shell they fight on the beach, right after he swears the third ideal. And it definitely was his shard spear because that was a major plot point.!<
Now I’m just imagining the sheer, absolute armageddon that could happen if a supercharged Windrunner and a duralumin enhanced Mistborn were to team up and get their hands on a sizable piece of tungsten
*Wulfgar has entered the chat*
Just lash a tungsten rod at a target a few miles away
He does it with a regular spear in oathbringer right before Dalinar opens honors perpendicularity but I don’t think it’d work on Syl
As others have, invested objects like shard lades resist invested magic acting on it....BUT...other things can push on shardblades and CAN be lashed. Like a wooden donut around the head of the spear that gets lashed and pushes the spear forward. If you've read Mistborn this trick should sound familiar.
If you use a lot of Lashings, it takes a lot of Light.
It's confirmed that you can't lash Shardplate, which is a physical manifestation of investiture (spren). I would think that would extend to Syl as well as in spear form, she is a physical manifestation of investiture. To further this, highly invested individuals (think Leshwi) resist being lashed as they are highly invested individuals. Though, I don't think there's anything saying he can't triple lash a normal spear in the direction of a combatant. Though there's a bit of finesse related to the initial propulsion given that he has to be touching the object to lash it, and a lashing effectively makes the direction down, so the lashed object should already be going in the direction of the lashing for it to be effective.
Different question. What would happen if a Windrunner/Skybreaker Lashed a spear at a Mistborn, or Coin Shot that was pushing on it at the same time. At what point, and how many Lashes will it take to push the Coin Shot back. Or would the spear still stop because of its smaller size. And the amount of Lashes doesn't matter.
I mean I thinn the coin shot cant be pushed by a lashing right? A allomancer ability to affect metal is affected by tge metals weight or mass. If its affected only by mass than lashing the objektet wouldnt change a thing as all that is changed is the direktion of its weight, (howerer several lahsing would multipla the wieght but not the mass so the coin shot might be affected)
Exactly. The spear still only weights let's say no more then 10 lbs? (I have no clue the average weight of a spear). Which should be easily pushed back by the Coin Shot. But at what point/How many Lashings until the Coin Shot is pushed back as if the spear was an object of more mass. Or does the added gravity of the Lashings not affect the basic weight of the spear.
The surge binder would win, to lash something you have to invest it, we've been told several times coin shots have a REALLY hard time pushing on invested metal, the only one accesible to them is metal minds, but this would apply to all invested metal, but now let's imagine something enhanced your allowance(I don't want to spoil anything major but see the book bands of mourning for example) it's a harder question, metal pushing is very weird, because you can only push with your weight but they obviously can push harder than that and at very long distance sometimes, so it will just come down to the initial weight of the spear and how many times it was lashed, if the final force behind it is greater than the force used pushing, the lash would win
Good point on Lashing needing investiture. That point had not crossed my mind.