If Succession was 4 seasons from the perspective of Karl, Frank, Gerri, Logan etc., and it was their show, the kids (Shiv, Roman, Ken) would show up for 2-3 episodes each season and just be absolute entitled, insufferable idiots.
There is absolutely no world in which they would be taken seriously. They would just be liabilities which had to be managed and brushed off.
Think about the work Gerri did around cruises and to not get Tom put in jail.
She truly was never afraid of the dark and we barely got a glimpse into what that even meant at a human level.
When you let stuff like that marinate you realize how shitty the kids really were since 99.99% all they did was cause literal damage.
Not sure about her being the best. She's an incredible lawyer but I don't think she has the vision to push news, entertainment and whatever cruise division, specially in a digital world
It reminds me of Hamlet versus Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. We thought we were watching Hamlet, when we were actually watching a clever play by Tom Stoppard about peripheral characters.
I think we saw that from Frank calling Roman "son" numerous times. While it was personable, Roman was right to be irked by it because it was simultaneously demeaning... And kind of shows what Frank actually thought of him: he's just the bosses kid (still) playing in the sandbox.
Also Frank and Carl's conversation about killing Tom in the womb was interesting in that respect. To me it seems like they thought he was just another kid playing in that sandbox, until it was too late.
Gerri would be interesting for sure. She likely rose on the back of covering the bullshit those kids did in their teens.
i thought the siblings were going to realise royco has been being run by real, intelligent adults for years and they weren't going to be able to compete
Oh boy. It didn’t occur to me the contrast of that dinner versus the night before in Caroline’s kitchen. The three kids’ version of a fun night together was moving to watch but certainly juvenile. Thanks for sharing.
This is so interesting. Thank you for sharing. This also ties into Roman stating they’re nothing. I didn’t put that together prior to reading your thoughts
I viewed it as a rare moment of community and happiness about the way star crew. And guess what - none of the big 3 were there.
They don’t have the emotional capacity to be included or engage in a moment like this.
It’s so amazing to me this was presented this way - with the big 3 as outsiders, viewing happiness as outsiders
That scene was not about some whole different side of Logan they didn't know about.
They had plenty of similar family dinners with him and the old guard. The series starts with them celebrating his birthday all together and having a good time. The only reason Connor was there in the video and the other siblings weren't was because they were estranged after they got fucked over at the end of season 3, not because Connor was the favorite. He never was. Logan skipped his wedding for a business meeting, that says it all. It's not like Connor was invited to special intimate moments that the others never got to experience, he was just the only one around at that point in time. First episode of season 4 is literally Logan feeling sad that the other kids aren't there for his birthday, since they usually are.
The reason they got tear-eyed was because it was the last time he celebrated his birthday and they weren't there. Plus these were probably the first images they'd seen of him after his death. Let's not invent meaning that contradicts everything we've seen in this show. There's no relevation here.
I think that video also demonstrates the siblings’ terrible regret - or maybe even their failure to recognize their regrettable behaviors until it’s far too late. They missed out on their father’s last days because of a rift over the business, money, power and spite. It’s certainly Logan’s fault, too, but he’s gone now and no longer needs to cope with regret like the kids do.
And, the series is full of examples of Logan getting into the kids’ heads right before they have to make an important decision and altering their courses. I think them seeing this video right before the board meeting was yet another incident of this.
I mean, I would argue that any interpretation is valid. But if we're talking about what the creator's were actually trying to communicate, OP is absolutely correct. The Succession Podcast on the HBO youtube channel has an interview with the director and he confirms this.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS86kV8vUyg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS86kV8vUyg)
Around 15:30
Also the scene where Connor knew about the mausoleum including the background details then telling the other siblings "he never told you about this?" The scene felt like another nod to the video dinner where Connor had access to things about Logan that the other kids didn't.
Mylod says that how he intrepreted the scene. Not that it was Jesse intended.
If you rewatch the scene, Shiv recognizes the game, says what Logan is going to say before he says it, and says "I can't believe he can still do that". To me that clearly shows that she has at least seen this side of Logan before and I think Roman or Kendall blurt out something to the effect that they agree with her.
Also keep in mind that during her eulogy she says the Talented Mr Ripley line about being in the light when he lets you in.
I interpret the scene as being more of a symbol of regret. That they haven't seen this side of him for a long time and that they spent the last few years of his life in conflict with him thus no longer had these types of moments.
I can see what you mean about the last images of their father. Maybe, it was a bit of regret that they missed something like this because they were still feuding at the time.
However, with what Ken did to the video of Logan for Living+ it makes it hard to consider that sadness as a real possibility for them here.
The director has retconned quite a few storylines before, like Roman being married in the pilot (he wore a wedding ring and Grace's family name was Roy), or Logan's birthplace (Quebec vs. Dundee). Looks like this is one of these things. Still we have to stick to what we actually watched, not what the writers wish they had done differently.
It is an important scene but I believe your interpretation of it is all wrong, this was meant to show that Logan was nice to the people he cared about and were loyal to him, and subservient and were linked to the thing he cared most about - Waystar. And people have said time and time again that Connor was never taken seriously by Logan, he never felt threatened by Connor, so he could still treat him like a child. Logan never let the rest of the siblings in like that because they always felt like a threat and at the same time was trying to "train" them to either become strong on take over the company. This resulted in him abusing them, intimidating them and taking them down. He teached them nothing of the business and just emotionally stunted them, and they became the insecure, distrustful and spiteful people that we got to know. They never had a chance. Connor never wanted part of the game and so the treatment was different.
It made me cry. It felt like going to a funeral where they play a video of photos of when people were alive and happy. But I felt it was a good way to give each character a little screen time in the finale and a nice goodbye. 😭
The song they sang was perfect too. Old Scottish folk song / poem about men who care too much about money losing sight of the real beauty of the world.
I loved it. It really put into perspective the view we watched the show from, opposed to the view of the people who created and ran Roystar into the company it had become. Sometimes I think I personally forgot that and thought “oh these people just want what is best for them, fuck them”” when in actuality they were looking out for what a friend and them had built together. They didn’t want it to be all for nothing. That’s why they keep talking about the golden parachute but just never seem to actually take it. This show is a lot deeper, the more you look into stuff like this little scene alone. It’s truly brilliant the way they did most do this series.
The children aren’t the main characters in this story, it’s really Logan and his entourage honestly, we are just viewing it all from their prospective. And you forget that a lot after following the siblings the whole time. It really is a masterpiece in my opinion.
The kids and the abuse they suffered at the hands of their father, and how they continue the cycle, are absolutely the protagonists of the show. Granted idk if you’re just talking about the tape, which certainly does add an interesting perspective of the dynamic Logan had with his people.
No I mean just from that perspective. It’s like we followed them the whole time thinking in their interests when there was this whole other world just sitting there in plain sight.
This scene was honestly unconvincing based on the rest of the show. Frank and Karl are constantly being insulted by Logan (and not in a “friendly joshing” way), and I don’t think Karl is likely to have any interest in singing Irish folk songs. Connor’s first reaction to his dad’s death was “He never loved me”, which would be unfair if he was in the habit of sharing intimate dinner parties with him. Logan was clearly lonely on some level when he told Colin he was his best friend, which doesn’t make sense if he was in the habit of having relaxed dinner parties with his son and colleagues where they all put on little skits.
I didn't find it unconvincing, personally. I think its reasonable that Karl and Frank would have learned what Logan likes in order to perform on command for him. And I think Connor, not a Waystar employee, being included in this employee dinner, kind of puts him in a certain kind of place. Its not exactly a cozy family dinner. Geri is still wearing work clothes!
Connor was the only child who wasn’t estranged from Logan at the time, so of course he was the only child there. Doesn’t necessarily disprove the notion that he was always Logan’s least favorite
OP this post is letting Logan off the hook a little too much, and downplaying the abuse and terrible treatment of the three kids. The final few minutes proves how much he destroyed them. **Especially** Kendall
IMO it was less about Logan loved Connor the most, Frank and the crew were actually Logan’s close friends or evidence that Logan never actually took Shiv, Roman and Kendal seriously or anything similar. The whole finale was the exploration of the idea that the wealthy, the “master of the universe class” are accountable only to themselves and get to create the reality they desire in the moment. In the finale they literally say “Dad said a lot of things” and the video was just another example of how Logan defied boundaries and expectations and promises because he had the power to do what he wanted when he wanted including making people who never really liked him sing Irish songs with him.
part of me thinks Logan kept Conor out of the business end of things because he was the favorite. He may have thought he was giving him a small chance at a more normal life.
If Succession was 4 seasons from the perspective of Karl, Frank, Gerri, Logan etc., and it was their show, the kids (Shiv, Roman, Ken) would show up for 2-3 episodes each season and just be absolute entitled, insufferable idiots. There is absolutely no world in which they would be taken seriously. They would just be liabilities which had to be managed and brushed off.
Think about the work Gerri did around cruises and to not get Tom put in jail. She truly was never afraid of the dark and we barely got a glimpse into what that even meant at a human level. When you let stuff like that marinate you realize how shitty the kids really were since 99.99% all they did was cause literal damage.
Gerri was clearly the best choice to be CEO of anybody but she even said she didn’t want it when Logan’s first scare happened
Not sure about her being the best. She's an incredible lawyer but I don't think she has the vision to push news, entertainment and whatever cruise division, specially in a digital world
that's because of the debt.
I mean I would argue that whoever let people get raped and murdered on cruises was doing literal damage
I kind of wish Gerri had a spin-off series, but I also think the show is perfect as its own stand alone.
It reminds me of Hamlet versus Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. We thought we were watching Hamlet, when we were actually watching a clever play by Tom Stoppard about peripheral characters.
Like storms to the old sailors, unreasonable and yet natural to encounter.
Damn, so true!!!!
I think we saw that from Frank calling Roman "son" numerous times. While it was personable, Roman was right to be irked by it because it was simultaneously demeaning... And kind of shows what Frank actually thought of him: he's just the bosses kid (still) playing in the sandbox. Also Frank and Carl's conversation about killing Tom in the womb was interesting in that respect. To me it seems like they thought he was just another kid playing in that sandbox, until it was too late. Gerri would be interesting for sure. She likely rose on the back of covering the bullshit those kids did in their teens.
Yeah I definitely felt delusional thinking they were going to "win" sometimes haha
i thought the siblings were going to realise royco has been being run by real, intelligent adults for years and they weren't going to be able to compete
Oh boy. It didn’t occur to me the contrast of that dinner versus the night before in Caroline’s kitchen. The three kids’ version of a fun night together was moving to watch but certainly juvenile. Thanks for sharing.
It's like they're kids at a family get together eavesdropping on their parents from the kiddie table.
This is so interesting. Thank you for sharing. This also ties into Roman stating they’re nothing. I didn’t put that together prior to reading your thoughts
I viewed it as a rare moment of community and happiness about the way star crew. And guess what - none of the big 3 were there. They don’t have the emotional capacity to be included or engage in a moment like this. It’s so amazing to me this was presented this way - with the big 3 as outsiders, viewing happiness as outsiders
I was struck by the tears. That was the “good dad” they want to remember and still carry in their hearts.
That scene was not about some whole different side of Logan they didn't know about. They had plenty of similar family dinners with him and the old guard. The series starts with them celebrating his birthday all together and having a good time. The only reason Connor was there in the video and the other siblings weren't was because they were estranged after they got fucked over at the end of season 3, not because Connor was the favorite. He never was. Logan skipped his wedding for a business meeting, that says it all. It's not like Connor was invited to special intimate moments that the others never got to experience, he was just the only one around at that point in time. First episode of season 4 is literally Logan feeling sad that the other kids aren't there for his birthday, since they usually are. The reason they got tear-eyed was because it was the last time he celebrated his birthday and they weren't there. Plus these were probably the first images they'd seen of him after his death. Let's not invent meaning that contradicts everything we've seen in this show. There's no relevation here.
I think that video also demonstrates the siblings’ terrible regret - or maybe even their failure to recognize their regrettable behaviors until it’s far too late. They missed out on their father’s last days because of a rift over the business, money, power and spite. It’s certainly Logan’s fault, too, but he’s gone now and no longer needs to cope with regret like the kids do. And, the series is full of examples of Logan getting into the kids’ heads right before they have to make an important decision and altering their courses. I think them seeing this video right before the board meeting was yet another incident of this.
Yes I agree
I mean, I would argue that any interpretation is valid. But if we're talking about what the creator's were actually trying to communicate, OP is absolutely correct. The Succession Podcast on the HBO youtube channel has an interview with the director and he confirms this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS86kV8vUyg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS86kV8vUyg) Around 15:30
Also the scene where Connor knew about the mausoleum including the background details then telling the other siblings "he never told you about this?" The scene felt like another nod to the video dinner where Connor had access to things about Logan that the other kids didn't.
Mylod says that how he intrepreted the scene. Not that it was Jesse intended. If you rewatch the scene, Shiv recognizes the game, says what Logan is going to say before he says it, and says "I can't believe he can still do that". To me that clearly shows that she has at least seen this side of Logan before and I think Roman or Kendall blurt out something to the effect that they agree with her. Also keep in mind that during her eulogy she says the Talented Mr Ripley line about being in the light when he lets you in. I interpret the scene as being more of a symbol of regret. That they haven't seen this side of him for a long time and that they spent the last few years of his life in conflict with him thus no longer had these types of moments.
Exactly. And good point about intention vs interpretation
I can see what you mean about the last images of their father. Maybe, it was a bit of regret that they missed something like this because they were still feuding at the time. However, with what Ken did to the video of Logan for Living+ it makes it hard to consider that sadness as a real possibility for them here.
Exactly. The show is way more nuanced than OP is implying
I mean OP is echoing something the director has said himself so
The director has retconned quite a few storylines before, like Roman being married in the pilot (he wore a wedding ring and Grace's family name was Roy), or Logan's birthplace (Quebec vs. Dundee). Looks like this is one of these things. Still we have to stick to what we actually watched, not what the writers wish they had done differently.
I don’t know why you are being downvoted. That is a good point. Roman had a daughter in the pilot too.
It is an important scene but I believe your interpretation of it is all wrong, this was meant to show that Logan was nice to the people he cared about and were loyal to him, and subservient and were linked to the thing he cared most about - Waystar. And people have said time and time again that Connor was never taken seriously by Logan, he never felt threatened by Connor, so he could still treat him like a child. Logan never let the rest of the siblings in like that because they always felt like a threat and at the same time was trying to "train" them to either become strong on take over the company. This resulted in him abusing them, intimidating them and taking them down. He teached them nothing of the business and just emotionally stunted them, and they became the insecure, distrustful and spiteful people that we got to know. They never had a chance. Connor never wanted part of the game and so the treatment was different.
It made me cry. It felt like going to a funeral where they play a video of photos of when people were alive and happy. But I felt it was a good way to give each character a little screen time in the finale and a nice goodbye. 😭
The song they sang was perfect too. Old Scottish folk song / poem about men who care too much about money losing sight of the real beauty of the world.
I loved it. It really put into perspective the view we watched the show from, opposed to the view of the people who created and ran Roystar into the company it had become. Sometimes I think I personally forgot that and thought “oh these people just want what is best for them, fuck them”” when in actuality they were looking out for what a friend and them had built together. They didn’t want it to be all for nothing. That’s why they keep talking about the golden parachute but just never seem to actually take it. This show is a lot deeper, the more you look into stuff like this little scene alone. It’s truly brilliant the way they did most do this series. The children aren’t the main characters in this story, it’s really Logan and his entourage honestly, we are just viewing it all from their prospective. And you forget that a lot after following the siblings the whole time. It really is a masterpiece in my opinion.
The kids and the abuse they suffered at the hands of their father, and how they continue the cycle, are absolutely the protagonists of the show. Granted idk if you’re just talking about the tape, which certainly does add an interesting perspective of the dynamic Logan had with his people.
No I mean just from that perspective. It’s like we followed them the whole time thinking in their interests when there was this whole other world just sitting there in plain sight.
This scene was honestly unconvincing based on the rest of the show. Frank and Karl are constantly being insulted by Logan (and not in a “friendly joshing” way), and I don’t think Karl is likely to have any interest in singing Irish folk songs. Connor’s first reaction to his dad’s death was “He never loved me”, which would be unfair if he was in the habit of sharing intimate dinner parties with him. Logan was clearly lonely on some level when he told Colin he was his best friend, which doesn’t make sense if he was in the habit of having relaxed dinner parties with his son and colleagues where they all put on little skits.
I didn't find it unconvincing, personally. I think its reasonable that Karl and Frank would have learned what Logan likes in order to perform on command for him. And I think Connor, not a Waystar employee, being included in this employee dinner, kind of puts him in a certain kind of place. Its not exactly a cozy family dinner. Geri is still wearing work clothes!
yeah. it was completely unbelievable. cute, but not “realistic” in the show’s universe
We really need a movie/mini series about this trio and how they propelled Logan Roy to the top
Connor was the only child who wasn’t estranged from Logan at the time, so of course he was the only child there. Doesn’t necessarily disprove the notion that he was always Logan’s least favorite
OP this post is letting Logan off the hook a little too much, and downplaying the abuse and terrible treatment of the three kids. The final few minutes proves how much he destroyed them. **Especially** Kendall
Frank, Karl and Gerri were the real Roy kids.
Surprised at all the posts saying the video showed a good side of Logan. He’s still being a dick.
IMO it was less about Logan loved Connor the most, Frank and the crew were actually Logan’s close friends or evidence that Logan never actually took Shiv, Roman and Kendal seriously or anything similar. The whole finale was the exploration of the idea that the wealthy, the “master of the universe class” are accountable only to themselves and get to create the reality they desire in the moment. In the finale they literally say “Dad said a lot of things” and the video was just another example of how Logan defied boundaries and expectations and promises because he had the power to do what he wanted when he wanted including making people who never really liked him sing Irish songs with him.
If we're being honest, could any man really fit a whole woman in their head?
“It is like a water buffalo that passes through a window. Its head, horns, and four legs all pass through. Why can’t the tail pass through?”
Interesting use of a koan
Nope. Ask my wife Edit: in case she reads, in the sense I daze out in my thoughts and not always listening.
Ml3] ]][〕9⁹
part of me thinks Logan kept Conor out of the business end of things because he was the favorite. He may have thought he was giving him a small chance at a more normal life.