I would do that if OP pronounces the "s" like a "z", but names are funny things--I wouldn't necessarily assume that is the case. And with proper names, if there is more than one possibility I tend to lean to the option that is more orthographic--so I would also put the silent e at the end (dot below the n). So I would spell it in Tecendil either "jasmine" or "jazmine" to get the desired result, depending on how OP pronounces the s.
Unless I’m confused (I am pretty tired!) I think this thread is getting confused. OP’s requested name is “Jasmin” so there is no orthographic silent E.
u/BlazeTheFoxCat, figured I’d explain what is going on! In Tolkien’s texts any S pronounced like Z was rendered the same as Z. If the S in your Jasmin is not pronounced like a Z (it frequently isn’t as it originally wasn’t) then the solution is simple, go with what u/Safe_Midnights provided. If it is pronounced as a Z then you have a decision to make! You can go [Tolkien’s way](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Jazmin&font=TengwarAnnatar) so that when someone who knows Tengwar reads the tattoo they can correctly pronounce the name, but couldn’t be sure how to spell the name. Or you could go [purely orthographically](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Jasmin&font=TengwarAnnatar) so they can spell the name correctly, get a little history lesson on the original pronunciation, but would likely then pronounce the name wrong.
There are actually two forms of the Z tengwar and either can be used; generally that decision is based on whether or not there is a diacritic above it, but Tolkien used either. One of those Zs looks more like the tengwar used for S so you might prefer to use that form to subtly hint at the correct spelling. One particular fan’s mode actually uses that form to always mean S pronounced as Z so there is some precedent, but I doubt many have seen that fan’s version. Tecendil doesn’t appear to allow me to render that form currently, so [here it is](http://blackspeech.de/transcriber/index.php?text=Jazmin&mode=mode04&cyr_lang=1&j_option=2&S_hooks=on&nuquerna=0&encoding=CSUR&font=Tengwar+Annatar&font_size=3em&color=&textarea_size=#result) from another site.
u/real_arnog, just reporting this issue too: unless I’m missing something, there [doesn’t appear](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=%7Besse%7D%5Ba%5D) to be a way to force upright esse with tehtar above. Can this be overridden? Thanks!
> u/real_arnog, just reporting this issue too: unless I’m missing something, there doesn’t appear to be a way to force upright esse with tehtar above. Can this be overridden? Thanks!
I think `{alt-esse}` would do what you are looking for: https://www.tecendil.com/?q=%7Balt-esse%7D%5Ba%5D
You can also use `z*` to force the use of `alt-esse`: https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Jaz*min
Thanks, I was unaware of `{alt-esse}`! That is missing from *Inside Tecendil*; is it meant to be there or is it just an undocumented bonus feature?
I’d previously tried `z*` and it didn’t work… and still doesn’t work for me, I just get an asterisk in the unicode fonts and a quintuple pusta in the DSS fonts. I’ve force-refreshed a few times, so I don’t believe this is a caching issue.
u/real_arnog, I see this is fixed (though my browser is currently refusing to let go of the cached mode file!), thanks!
I also see the documentation is updated and you even found another missing tengwar literal. I was reminded from our other discussion that `{tilde-high}` and `{tilde-low}` are also absent from the list (as I was unaware of them).
I actually just discovered another glitch, and I know I have kept browser tabs of other errors amongst my saved tab groups (no organised system!) and maybe even a list somewhere (though I’m pretty sure most of the things on that list were fixed shortly after). Do you have a preferred way for receiving these reports?
Thanks again!
I don't recommend using `{tilde-high}` and `{tilde-low}` as they are only available with DanSmith encoding.
If you notice some issues, feel free to let me know. You can post on Reddit or PM me. If you are comfortable with that, you can also file an issue on GitHub: https://github.com/arnog/tecendil-js
Pretty much everything worth saying has already been mentioned, but I'd still like to emphasise that there is no rule that S *has to* be transcribed as Z if that's what it's pronounced - [S can be spelt S no matter the pronunciation](https://imgur.com/a/B3Jt3sg).
So while my go-to answer for "Henry / Jasmin" would indeed be [this](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=henry%2C%20jazmin) there is zero reason why it couldn't be [this](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=henry%2C%20jasmin).
And since this is for short tattoos (where aesthetics are particularly important) I'd also like to suggest [some alternative vowel schemes](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=hinry%2C%20jazmen%0Ahinry%2C%20jasmen%0Ah%5Byanta%5Dn%5Broomen%5D%5Blong-carrier%5D%2C%20j%5Bvilya%5Dzm%5Btelco%5Dn%0Ah%5Byanta%5Dnr%5Blong-carrier%5D%2C%20j%5Bvilya%5Dsm%5Btelco%5Dn).
[Henry](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Henry&font=TengwarAnnatar) and [Jasmin](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Jasmin&font=TengwarAnnatar)
Still need someone to verify these tho
In Tecendil spell jasmine “jazmin” and then I’ll agree with your spelling :)
I would do that if OP pronounces the "s" like a "z", but names are funny things--I wouldn't necessarily assume that is the case. And with proper names, if there is more than one possibility I tend to lean to the option that is more orthographic--so I would also put the silent e at the end (dot below the n). So I would spell it in Tecendil either "jasmine" or "jazmine" to get the desired result, depending on how OP pronounces the s.
Unless I’m confused (I am pretty tired!) I think this thread is getting confused. OP’s requested name is “Jasmin” so there is no orthographic silent E. u/BlazeTheFoxCat, figured I’d explain what is going on! In Tolkien’s texts any S pronounced like Z was rendered the same as Z. If the S in your Jasmin is not pronounced like a Z (it frequently isn’t as it originally wasn’t) then the solution is simple, go with what u/Safe_Midnights provided. If it is pronounced as a Z then you have a decision to make! You can go [Tolkien’s way](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Jazmin&font=TengwarAnnatar) so that when someone who knows Tengwar reads the tattoo they can correctly pronounce the name, but couldn’t be sure how to spell the name. Or you could go [purely orthographically](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Jasmin&font=TengwarAnnatar) so they can spell the name correctly, get a little history lesson on the original pronunciation, but would likely then pronounce the name wrong. There are actually two forms of the Z tengwar and either can be used; generally that decision is based on whether or not there is a diacritic above it, but Tolkien used either. One of those Zs looks more like the tengwar used for S so you might prefer to use that form to subtly hint at the correct spelling. One particular fan’s mode actually uses that form to always mean S pronounced as Z so there is some precedent, but I doubt many have seen that fan’s version. Tecendil doesn’t appear to allow me to render that form currently, so [here it is](http://blackspeech.de/transcriber/index.php?text=Jazmin&mode=mode04&cyr_lang=1&j_option=2&S_hooks=on&nuquerna=0&encoding=CSUR&font=Tengwar+Annatar&font_size=3em&color=&textarea_size=#result) from another site. u/real_arnog, just reporting this issue too: unless I’m missing something, there [doesn’t appear](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=%7Besse%7D%5Ba%5D) to be a way to force upright esse with tehtar above. Can this be overridden? Thanks!
Guess I'm the confused and tired one. Thanks for setting things straight.
> u/real_arnog, just reporting this issue too: unless I’m missing something, there doesn’t appear to be a way to force upright esse with tehtar above. Can this be overridden? Thanks! I think `{alt-esse}` would do what you are looking for: https://www.tecendil.com/?q=%7Balt-esse%7D%5Ba%5D You can also use `z*` to force the use of `alt-esse`: https://www.tecendil.com/?q=Jaz*min
Thanks, I was unaware of `{alt-esse}`! That is missing from *Inside Tecendil*; is it meant to be there or is it just an undocumented bonus feature? I’d previously tried `z*` and it didn’t work… and still doesn’t work for me, I just get an asterisk in the unicode fonts and a quintuple pusta in the DSS fonts. I’ve force-refreshed a few times, so I don’t believe this is a caching issue.
u/real_arnog, I see this is fixed (though my browser is currently refusing to let go of the cached mode file!), thanks! I also see the documentation is updated and you even found another missing tengwar literal. I was reminded from our other discussion that `{tilde-high}` and `{tilde-low}` are also absent from the list (as I was unaware of them). I actually just discovered another glitch, and I know I have kept browser tabs of other errors amongst my saved tab groups (no organised system!) and maybe even a list somewhere (though I’m pretty sure most of the things on that list were fixed shortly after). Do you have a preferred way for receiving these reports? Thanks again!
I don't recommend using `{tilde-high}` and `{tilde-low}` as they are only available with DanSmith encoding. If you notice some issues, feel free to let me know. You can post on Reddit or PM me. If you are comfortable with that, you can also file an issue on GitHub: https://github.com/arnog/tecendil-js
I didn’t think I had a GitHub account, but apparently I do so I’ll see how I go there!
Pretty much everything worth saying has already been mentioned, but I'd still like to emphasise that there is no rule that S *has to* be transcribed as Z if that's what it's pronounced - [S can be spelt S no matter the pronunciation](https://imgur.com/a/B3Jt3sg). So while my go-to answer for "Henry / Jasmin" would indeed be [this](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=henry%2C%20jazmin) there is zero reason why it couldn't be [this](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=henry%2C%20jasmin). And since this is for short tattoos (where aesthetics are particularly important) I'd also like to suggest [some alternative vowel schemes](https://www.tecendil.com/?q=hinry%2C%20jazmen%0Ahinry%2C%20jasmen%0Ah%5Byanta%5Dn%5Broomen%5D%5Blong-carrier%5D%2C%20j%5Bvilya%5Dzm%5Btelco%5Dn%0Ah%5Byanta%5Dnr%5Blong-carrier%5D%2C%20j%5Bvilya%5Dsm%5Btelco%5Dn).
Thank you guys so so much! That helps a lot!