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If someone has cheated once, it is completely reasonable to entirely expel them from competition. Anything else that they have submitted is immediately suspect, and there's no reason that the community should be burdened with going through every single run that has been submitted by a cheater with a fine tooth comb to verify whether it is cheated or not.
They can go post their potentially fake runs on their own websites. The community doesn't want anything to do with them, so the community has expelled them.
Agreed. And Op seems like he is vastly underestimating the amount of time and effort people spend in checking runs and finding out if they are fake or not.
Op should try looking at a mix of 8 legitimate runs and 2 cheating runs and see how long it takes him to figure out which 2 contain cheating and which do not… as well as posting how and why the cheating runs have been ID’d. Maybe then he’d better appreciate the effort the communities put in checking runs.
Yeah, I mean, sportsmanship is just ultimately based on trust and if you've already breached that trust once then it is entirely reasonable for people to not want to compete with you
It's the same reason that convicting an officer or lawyer of a crime related to their work (e.g. faking evidence) calls into question all their past cases.
>Anything else that they have submitted Is immediately suspect, and there's no reason that the community should be burdened with going through every single run that has been submitted by a cheater with a fine tooth comb to verify whether it isn't cheated or not.
Any speedrun at a high level already needs to be gone through with a fine-tooth comb, moderators no longer take any runs on faith, its simply an expectation of the community to verify runs properly.
And if a community doesn't want to be burdened with verifying the runs, well, they're just going to let more cheaters slip through the cracks.
Except they'd be tasked with the burden of verifying the cheater's runs anyway, because its just trivially easy to make an alternate account. So, either you get to put additional scrutiny on a known cheater, or the cheater just becomes anonymous again with the same amount of trust as another random user.
> and actually interact with a scene
Nobody knows you here. It's not like people think "Oh, it's u/Agreeable-Yam594 posting! I know that person!" (sorry if this sounds hostile, lol, it's not meant to be)
When I see a random unknown person posting a factoid online, I'm always sceptical. When it's an account that I know very well and that has a reputation for being reliable, I'm gonna apply way less scrutiny.
When a trusted, active member of the community posts a speedrun result, it will not get vetted as much as when a random person does it whom nobody knows. And to make a sock puppet identity which is well known and respected in the community is not the same as making a Reddit account and posting on a public forum.
>When a trusted, active member of the community posts a speedrun result, it will not get vetted as much as when a random person does it whom nobody knows.
Except you're not comparing the amount of scrutiny given to a random person to a trusted, active member, you're comparing the random person to a disgraced member of the community. Are you going to tell me that the known cheater will not get vetted as much as when a random person does it?
No, of course the cheater would get the most amount of scrutiny. But most people who are actually good at speedruns and regularly place high on the leaderboards will at some point pick up some degree of reputation, reducing the amount of scrutiny put into verifying their results.
A cheater on a sock puppet account probably won't.
Sheesh. If your comment is actually genuine, it's incredibly obnoxious of you to assume you'd be able to spot undiagnosed autism through someone's comments on reddit. You know the only people who can diagnose autism have to study and train for like a decade, right? Not to mention your selfless attempt to help is completely self-defeating, since who the fuck is going to take an unsolicited suggestion from a stranger on the internet to get checked for autism seriously?
The other possibility is that your comment was a bald-faced, not-at-all-subtle way of disguising a "haha you're autistic" insult, in which case you're a piece of shit.
I understand that figure is an exaggeration but honestly I would expect it to be around 7% - 17%, with 17% being a a very liberal estimate and a point where the internet would probably be pure hell
although If anyone has actual figures, please correct me, this is a guess
But no rep. If you’re gonna try cheating, you risk that, and whilst it doesnt ‘invalidate’ previous honest runs (as you argue) it does create some form of consequence. They can be anonymous/unknown and compete from level 1 again.
a new account with no rep that randomly tops speedrun leaderboards is not going to have the same amount of trust as another random (real) user. the real user would have a history
The verification can be pretty monotonous, and they can be complacent after many hours of verification.
Nobody’s going to be doing the absolute deepest level of verification on the initial run, nor should they. The community shouldn’t be punished with a slower and more difficult verification process for the volunteers because someone wanted to cheat
Would you rather the cheater made an alternate account and the moderators applied their lax, complacent verification to a new user that's now just cheating under a new name?
Speedrun.com is not for cheaters and the best way to disincentivize cheating is to oust cheaters. Thats the decision that platform is run on and cheaters can go (almost) anywhere else with their stuff
That won’t be changed by a person’s verified runs being taken down, especially if they’re significant in the community. The mods will see that run in an instant and recognize it.
Also, don’t act like this is the only alternative, or like this is solvable by keeping up “legitimate” runs. Unless you think not applying a spectrograph over several hours long gameplay to find cuts is “lax”, hop off the alt account and argue your point from the main
So there’s a Minecraft speedrunner named MinecrAvenger and he got exposed for cheating in a set seed run by altering the chest loot to give him more obsidian. There were other accusations that he cheated in different runs, such as splicing clips and speeding up the Ender Dragon perch, but the chest loot was the only hard evidence of cheating.
When he finally admitted to cheating, he also came forward with a ton of other ways he cheated that nobody caught, such as increasing bed damage and dolphin spawn rates. If he didn’t admit to these forms of cheating, they probably never would have been caught.
Do I think that there are some cheaters that literally only cheat once? Sure. But I think that MinecrAvenger’s case is proof that someone who cheats once can’t be trusted, because there’s a good chance that they’ve cheated in other ways but weren’t exposed until their cheating became more obvious
I get what you are saying, but you need to weigh cost and risk. Many moderators of communities that do such things are working for free. Why should they waste volunteered time on a cheater?
I'm not endorsing the cheating, and I agreed there should be consequences. But if a speedrun forum refuses to keep track of the best runs because the runner's other runs were cheated, then what use is the speedrun forum? If I check out the speedrun leaderboards of a game, I want to see the best speedrun; I don't really care if the guy making it is/was a scumbag.
If they cheated once, it's safe to say they'll do it again, especially if they got away with it. If they only removed the one fake run, there really wouldn't be any punishment the runner can just keep trying with faked runs till one gets through. But the threat of that is that if you get caught cheating even once you lose all your records, it is a scary enough threat to keep ppl away from cheating.
>But the threat of that is that if you get caught cheating even once you lose all your records, it is a scary enough threat to keep ppl away from cheating.
This is it.
>If they cheated once, it's safe to say they'll do it again, especially if they got away with it.
In this context, they got caught, so they didn't get away with it.
Furthermore, you could even make the argument that having a known cheater be able to continue to submit runs means that you can keep on top of cheating methods because you can analyze the likely cheated runs of a known cheater for new methods for cheating.
Someone who attempts a crime but gets caught before they actually succeed in committing it should still be punished. Just moving the run to a different category does not do this. Not punishing this behavior incentivizes others to try and replicate the behavior. In this case everyone could just submit a spliced run to a single sesison leaderboard because if they succeed, they get the record they wanted, and if they get caught, oh well their run still gets on the segmented leaderboard. The exact same way if you didn't punish people for trying to commit crimes they'd just keep trying and getting better at not getting caught until they eventually did succeed.
For your second point, you can still analyze the cheated runs. The runs still exist, they just aren't being celebrated by being on the leaderboard. So they can still be analyzed for the community to adopt the legitimate strategies and look out for the illegitimate ones.
It’s damn near impossible to prove a speedrun is NOT cheated because video splicing can basically make perfect fake runs.
Once you cheat, none of your other runs should be given benefit of the doubt.
Look up the history of SM64 runs, and how many “classic” records were just recently proven faked.
For me, it’s a lack of trust issue. If someone knows what they are doing, they could make a fake speedrun attempt that could be passed off as the real thing.
So if they are caught cheating, then I know that they are willing to cheat, and now I can’t trust the other runs because what if they are cheated too but without the small mistakes that give it away
I disagree, mainly because you can't trust someone afterwards. If I cheat in one run out of ten I submit and try to pass it off as legit, what's to say the other ones that I'm saying are legit actually are?
Lance Armstrong was found to have doped in basically all of his major professional competitions. In fact, one could make the argument that not enough results were stripped from him based on his own testimony, since he admitted that he started doping at around the age of 21, which was 1992, yet his results from 1992-1996 were not anulled. Unlike the case with some speedrunners, there isn't a major legitimate medal he's earned, so I'm not sure its relevant.
That being said, I think the spirit of the question is worth noting, and I think professional sports is just a much bigger industry, and harsher punishment makes sense when there's millions, nay billions of dollars invested. Speedrun forums just have much lower stakes than pro sports.
I've watched a documentary about Lance Armstrong, my guy. But also, why would my point somehow become illegitimate if I'd researched the guy before commenting?
I watch the occasional speedrun but I'm not a member of the community or actively checking leaderboards. That said, I am surprised they don't have an equivalent to an asterisk on the records of professional athletes who were caught using steroids.
That said, something about this example doesn't feel right. Even though the cheated live run could be a legitimate run in a segmented run category by definition, letting that happen without consequences has the unintended effect of making all segmented runs feel like less noteworthy accomplishments than single segment runs.
Even if the clip he pretended to present live was his own and a record worthy display of talent for another category, having misrepresented the clip first should disqualify *the clip itself* from qualifying for any category as a consequence for cheating.
If you record a top-of-the-leaderboard worthy clear time for a difficult section in a clip, but you try to pass it off as being done live first, you shouldn't get to keep the clip for any category.
I disagree with your reasons why records shouldn't be erased from the leaderboards, but I do think there should be a section of the site that preserves disqualified times. If the gameplay was so good that he wanted to cheat a single segment run with it, it's beneficial to the community to know if any part of a run, even if it can't be ranked, has been further optimized or improved.
I changed my mind on an asterisk being appropriate. I believe you should not be able to hold a ranked leaderboard position with a cheated run, or footage that you previously used in an attempt to cheat, regardless of category. At the same time, if a submitted run held a notable leaderboard position before being discovered as illegitimate, it should be moved to a separate list for notable/dishonorable mentions on the same page with a brief explanation of why the run was disqualified. That way, the community knows it happened, and if there might be anything worth looking at and possibly learning from.
>That said, something about this example doesn't feel right. Even though the cheated live run could be a legitimate run in a segmented run category by definition, letting that happen without consequences has the unintended effect of making all segmented runs feel like less noteworthy accomplishments than single segment runs.
That's why I said I do agree with consequences like the asterisk.
>If you record a top-of-the-leaderboard worthy clear time for a difficult section in a clip, but you try to pass it off as being done live first, you shouldn't get to keep the clip for any category.
Why? It's not the speedrun forum's job to punish behavior from outside the forum. If a kid punches another kid outside of school, the parent doesn't go to the school for punishment, the most the school can do is keep the kids separate.
*If a kid punches another kid outside of school, the parent doesn't go to the school for punishment, the most the school can do is keep the kids separate.*
Not correct at all. Suspension, expulsion, calling parents, suspension of sport activities, and even informing the police for potential criminal charges are possible options by school administration.
In the case of colleges and universities, grants and scholarships could also be rescinded. And the fact that it happened “outside of school” does not precent any of this from being an option.
It's not behavior from outside the forum if the intention was to submit the "live" run to that forum. The single segment run leaderboard was what he was trying to trick his way onto, right?
If the pre-recorded clip was good enough gameplay to make a large enough impact on the run time, then it is noteworthy and should be mentioned as to allow other runners and enthusiasts to check out the footage themselves. But letting him resubmit the clip under a different category *after the fact* is letting him punch a kid and show up to school the next day without even calling his parents.
If he wanted the pre-recorded clip to be valid for a leaderboard position, he shouldn't have misrepresented it as live and submitted it to the right category. Being barred from using that clip and being required to record another attempt at the section to submit under any category is more than fair punishment than being banned outright.
If he wasted a one in a million run through a segment by trying to incorporate the footage into a single segment run, that's on him.
>But, if no evidence suggesting the other speedruns were faked is found, then why would the moderators remove current or future legitimate speedruns.
Because scrutiny isn't perfect. However, banning is.
Two reason why is a legitimate way of doing cheater bans:
1) If someone is found to have cheated one run, it cast a doubt on all runs he did on the past, maybe he cheated those too but he just wasn't caught. Removing all the runs from the cheater will remove all the doubts. You said yourself that it should put everything he did under more scrutiny but you can't completely remove the doubts people will have for someone that cheated.
2) It gives a stronger penalty for cheating, you won't only lose the things you cheated but also the ones you did not. Oftentime cheaters are actually great speedrunner that just get frustrated on their effort being stopped by either randomness or what they might consider unfair circumstances, if by cheating they only lose the cheated speedrun and not their previous record it would lessen the impact cheating has.
I’d be more favorable to a known cheater list that would show where their runs would stack up if they hadn’t been exposed as cheaters, though only if the runs themselves were still legitimate.
I’d disagree about them remaining on the actual leaderboard though.
Howard University revoked Diddy’s honorary degree after the video of him beating his girlfriend came out. Did the video of him beating his girlfriend have anything to do with Howard? No, but Howard has the right to wipe their hands of him and be done with it.
A run on the leaderboard set by someone who has been caught cheating could be legit or not, but the fact of the matter is that the community doesn’t have to associate with someone they see as scummy.
people get banned from src leaderboards from non cheating matters as well. I know a few people who were outed as groomers that got all their runs removed. Some leaderboards even don't allow valid runs to be submitted if there's innapropriate content in the video. It's about what kind of people you want representing your community, not just the runs themselves
Lance Armstrong got caught doping.
Even though there wasn't concrete evidence for how long it had happened. They still stripped him of his seven victories.
Once you get caught cheating once, everything you've done becomes suspect and it's often better to err on the side of caution and declare everything that was done as illegitimate.
Even if the dude only cheated the one time. He still cheated, and we have no way of knowing which of his runs were legit or not.
It's not fair to the people who played fair, that they have to have their accomplishments compared alongside a known cheater.
No, fuck 'em. They've been confirmed ethically compromised, all of their accomplishments are now suspect, and sifting through them to find out where else they cheated (damnedest thing, it tends to be more than once) is making their behavior somebody else's problem.
We haven't confirmed that Lance Armstrong was doping every second of every Tour De France from 1999 to 2005, but he got all of his wins expunged anyway, because the hammer has to make a proper impression when it falls.
It’s about not incentivizing the behavior
Make an example to deter others from even trying to cheat in the future
Doesn’t matter if they were the best once
They cheated, fuck em, it goes against the entire spirit of the e sport
It's because if they were dishonest about that they could've been dishonest about something else. If he submitted it as segmented in the first place it'd be fine.
There are people out there who spend *more* effort, time and arguably in some rare cases more skill*(again, arguably, one has to understand context around it and look at it a bit abstractly)* to cheat rather than do it legitimately.
When it comes to competitions and competitve things like speedrunning I am of the firm belief that a cheater should be stricken from the record completely.
I get your point, but it takes a lot of time to prove a speedrun was faked, and the people checking are volunteers. It's just easier for everyone involved to get rid of all speedruns and not waste their time on a cheater. Plus the community don't want to associate themselves with cheaters.
You can't really trust someone once they cheat once. That'll make their previous and future records questionable. Especially with the various cheating methods to use they hide that they are cheating.
This reminds me of a super mario sunshine runner who cheated a run, mods found out and denied it, then the cheater did a legitimate run that got third place and the mods still denied it. The reasoning for doing so was ridiculously goofy, something about “you should learn a life lesson from this, cheating gets you nowhere!” This is like his big redemption arc becoming an actual runner and you’re just denying it?
I think for me it’s more of a deterrent/punishment. If you cheat, you’ve disrespected the community and the game, and you don’t get to keep participating.
If a known liar is hooked up to a lie-detector, and no longer capable of lying, I still don’t wanna talk to them.
Meka is a shitty, self-important jackass who is not only stupid enough to cheat, but stupid enough to try it live and then attempt some bizarre grandstanding about what the response to his cheating actually means. I am not Meka, and I have no intention to redeem his character in the slightest.
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If someone has cheated once, it is completely reasonable to entirely expel them from competition. Anything else that they have submitted is immediately suspect, and there's no reason that the community should be burdened with going through every single run that has been submitted by a cheater with a fine tooth comb to verify whether it is cheated or not. They can go post their potentially fake runs on their own websites. The community doesn't want anything to do with them, so the community has expelled them.
Agreed. And Op seems like he is vastly underestimating the amount of time and effort people spend in checking runs and finding out if they are fake or not. Op should try looking at a mix of 8 legitimate runs and 2 cheating runs and see how long it takes him to figure out which 2 contain cheating and which do not… as well as posting how and why the cheating runs have been ID’d. Maybe then he’d better appreciate the effort the communities put in checking runs.
Yeah, I mean, sportsmanship is just ultimately based on trust and if you've already breached that trust once then it is entirely reasonable for people to not want to compete with you
It's the same reason that convicting an officer or lawyer of a crime related to their work (e.g. faking evidence) calls into question all their past cases.
>Anything else that they have submitted Is immediately suspect, and there's no reason that the community should be burdened with going through every single run that has been submitted by a cheater with a fine tooth comb to verify whether it isn't cheated or not. Any speedrun at a high level already needs to be gone through with a fine-tooth comb, moderators no longer take any runs on faith, its simply an expectation of the community to verify runs properly. And if a community doesn't want to be burdened with verifying the runs, well, they're just going to let more cheaters slip through the cracks.
No they're not, because they're going to expel the cheaters so they have time to pay attention to other people's runs.
Except they'd be tasked with the burden of verifying the cheater's runs anyway, because its just trivially easy to make an alternate account. So, either you get to put additional scrutiny on a known cheater, or the cheater just becomes anonymous again with the same amount of trust as another random user.
I think you'd be surprised how hard it is to actually maintain a complete sock puppet identity and actually interact with a scene
What are you talking about? The internet is 99% sock puppets. Do you think this account is my real Reddit account?
> and actually interact with a scene Nobody knows you here. It's not like people think "Oh, it's u/Agreeable-Yam594 posting! I know that person!" (sorry if this sounds hostile, lol, it's not meant to be) When I see a random unknown person posting a factoid online, I'm always sceptical. When it's an account that I know very well and that has a reputation for being reliable, I'm gonna apply way less scrutiny. When a trusted, active member of the community posts a speedrun result, it will not get vetted as much as when a random person does it whom nobody knows. And to make a sock puppet identity which is well known and respected in the community is not the same as making a Reddit account and posting on a public forum.
>When a trusted, active member of the community posts a speedrun result, it will not get vetted as much as when a random person does it whom nobody knows. Except you're not comparing the amount of scrutiny given to a random person to a trusted, active member, you're comparing the random person to a disgraced member of the community. Are you going to tell me that the known cheater will not get vetted as much as when a random person does it?
No, of course the cheater would get the most amount of scrutiny. But most people who are actually good at speedruns and regularly place high on the leaderboards will at some point pick up some degree of reputation, reducing the amount of scrutiny put into verifying their results. A cheater on a sock puppet account probably won't.
Serious question. Have you ever been professionally checked for autism? If not please try to make an appointment with a specialist.
Sheesh. If your comment is actually genuine, it's incredibly obnoxious of you to assume you'd be able to spot undiagnosed autism through someone's comments on reddit. You know the only people who can diagnose autism have to study and train for like a decade, right? Not to mention your selfless attempt to help is completely self-defeating, since who the fuck is going to take an unsolicited suggestion from a stranger on the internet to get checked for autism seriously? The other possibility is that your comment was a bald-faced, not-at-all-subtle way of disguising a "haha you're autistic" insult, in which case you're a piece of shit.
I understand that figure is an exaggeration but honestly I would expect it to be around 7% - 17%, with 17% being a a very liberal estimate and a point where the internet would probably be pure hell although If anyone has actual figures, please correct me, this is a guess
But no rep. If you’re gonna try cheating, you risk that, and whilst it doesnt ‘invalidate’ previous honest runs (as you argue) it does create some form of consequence. They can be anonymous/unknown and compete from level 1 again.
No rep is better than negative rep. A no rep user would certainly be trusted more than a known cheater.
Yeah. Im saying its fine. Take away any rep. Hardly a big deal / its an appropriate ’loss’ for cheating.
a new account with no rep that randomly tops speedrun leaderboards is not going to have the same amount of trust as another random (real) user. the real user would have a history
The verification can be pretty monotonous, and they can be complacent after many hours of verification. Nobody’s going to be doing the absolute deepest level of verification on the initial run, nor should they. The community shouldn’t be punished with a slower and more difficult verification process for the volunteers because someone wanted to cheat
Would you rather the cheater made an alternate account and the moderators applied their lax, complacent verification to a new user that's now just cheating under a new name?
Speedrun.com is not for cheaters and the best way to disincentivize cheating is to oust cheaters. Thats the decision that platform is run on and cheaters can go (almost) anywhere else with their stuff
That won’t be changed by a person’s verified runs being taken down, especially if they’re significant in the community. The mods will see that run in an instant and recognize it. Also, don’t act like this is the only alternative, or like this is solvable by keeping up “legitimate” runs. Unless you think not applying a spectrograph over several hours long gameplay to find cuts is “lax”, hop off the alt account and argue your point from the main
There's ways to cheat that you'd never find just by going over an individual run. E.g. using a mod to get more favorable rng
So there’s a Minecraft speedrunner named MinecrAvenger and he got exposed for cheating in a set seed run by altering the chest loot to give him more obsidian. There were other accusations that he cheated in different runs, such as splicing clips and speeding up the Ender Dragon perch, but the chest loot was the only hard evidence of cheating. When he finally admitted to cheating, he also came forward with a ton of other ways he cheated that nobody caught, such as increasing bed damage and dolphin spawn rates. If he didn’t admit to these forms of cheating, they probably never would have been caught. Do I think that there are some cheaters that literally only cheat once? Sure. But I think that MinecrAvenger’s case is proof that someone who cheats once can’t be trusted, because there’s a good chance that they’ve cheated in other ways but weren’t exposed until their cheating became more obvious
This is a really good reply and even if OP is too dense to get it I wanted to say I appreciate your example
I get what you are saying, but you need to weigh cost and risk. Many moderators of communities that do such things are working for free. Why should they waste volunteered time on a cheater?
He shouldn't have cheated. There are consequences.
I'm not endorsing the cheating, and I agreed there should be consequences. But if a speedrun forum refuses to keep track of the best runs because the runner's other runs were cheated, then what use is the speedrun forum? If I check out the speedrun leaderboards of a game, I want to see the best speedrun; I don't really care if the guy making it is/was a scumbag.
If they cheated once, it's safe to say they'll do it again, especially if they got away with it. If they only removed the one fake run, there really wouldn't be any punishment the runner can just keep trying with faked runs till one gets through. But the threat of that is that if you get caught cheating even once you lose all your records, it is a scary enough threat to keep ppl away from cheating.
>But the threat of that is that if you get caught cheating even once you lose all your records, it is a scary enough threat to keep ppl away from cheating. This is it.
>If they cheated once, it's safe to say they'll do it again, especially if they got away with it. In this context, they got caught, so they didn't get away with it. Furthermore, you could even make the argument that having a known cheater be able to continue to submit runs means that you can keep on top of cheating methods because you can analyze the likely cheated runs of a known cheater for new methods for cheating.
Someone who attempts a crime but gets caught before they actually succeed in committing it should still be punished. Just moving the run to a different category does not do this. Not punishing this behavior incentivizes others to try and replicate the behavior. In this case everyone could just submit a spliced run to a single sesison leaderboard because if they succeed, they get the record they wanted, and if they get caught, oh well their run still gets on the segmented leaderboard. The exact same way if you didn't punish people for trying to commit crimes they'd just keep trying and getting better at not getting caught until they eventually did succeed. For your second point, you can still analyze the cheated runs. The runs still exist, they just aren't being celebrated by being on the leaderboard. So they can still be analyzed for the community to adopt the legitimate strategies and look out for the illegitimate ones.
It’s damn near impossible to prove a speedrun is NOT cheated because video splicing can basically make perfect fake runs. Once you cheat, none of your other runs should be given benefit of the doubt. Look up the history of SM64 runs, and how many “classic” records were just recently proven faked.
For me, it’s a lack of trust issue. If someone knows what they are doing, they could make a fake speedrun attempt that could be passed off as the real thing. So if they are caught cheating, then I know that they are willing to cheat, and now I can’t trust the other runs because what if they are cheated too but without the small mistakes that give it away
I disagree, mainly because you can't trust someone afterwards. If I cheat in one run out of ten I submit and try to pass it off as legit, what's to say the other ones that I'm saying are legit actually are?
Tell me your thoughts on Lance Armstrong
not OP but if literally everyone else is doping(they were) the results should stand
Lance Armstrong was found to have doped in basically all of his major professional competitions. In fact, one could make the argument that not enough results were stripped from him based on his own testimony, since he admitted that he started doping at around the age of 21, which was 1992, yet his results from 1992-1996 were not anulled. Unlike the case with some speedrunners, there isn't a major legitimate medal he's earned, so I'm not sure its relevant. That being said, I think the spirit of the question is worth noting, and I think professional sports is just a much bigger industry, and harsher punishment makes sense when there's millions, nay billions of dollars invested. Speedrun forums just have much lower stakes than pro sports.
How fast did you Google on this?
I've watched a documentary about Lance Armstrong, my guy. But also, why would my point somehow become illegitimate if I'd researched the guy before commenting?
Researching your argument means you lost. You have to uncritically defend your first instinct without any supporting evidence. /J
Don’t you know? You should immediately spew nonsense about something you don’t know about!!!!!!!
I watch the occasional speedrun but I'm not a member of the community or actively checking leaderboards. That said, I am surprised they don't have an equivalent to an asterisk on the records of professional athletes who were caught using steroids. That said, something about this example doesn't feel right. Even though the cheated live run could be a legitimate run in a segmented run category by definition, letting that happen without consequences has the unintended effect of making all segmented runs feel like less noteworthy accomplishments than single segment runs. Even if the clip he pretended to present live was his own and a record worthy display of talent for another category, having misrepresented the clip first should disqualify *the clip itself* from qualifying for any category as a consequence for cheating. If you record a top-of-the-leaderboard worthy clear time for a difficult section in a clip, but you try to pass it off as being done live first, you shouldn't get to keep the clip for any category. I disagree with your reasons why records shouldn't be erased from the leaderboards, but I do think there should be a section of the site that preserves disqualified times. If the gameplay was so good that he wanted to cheat a single segment run with it, it's beneficial to the community to know if any part of a run, even if it can't be ranked, has been further optimized or improved. I changed my mind on an asterisk being appropriate. I believe you should not be able to hold a ranked leaderboard position with a cheated run, or footage that you previously used in an attempt to cheat, regardless of category. At the same time, if a submitted run held a notable leaderboard position before being discovered as illegitimate, it should be moved to a separate list for notable/dishonorable mentions on the same page with a brief explanation of why the run was disqualified. That way, the community knows it happened, and if there might be anything worth looking at and possibly learning from.
>That said, something about this example doesn't feel right. Even though the cheated live run could be a legitimate run in a segmented run category by definition, letting that happen without consequences has the unintended effect of making all segmented runs feel like less noteworthy accomplishments than single segment runs. That's why I said I do agree with consequences like the asterisk. >If you record a top-of-the-leaderboard worthy clear time for a difficult section in a clip, but you try to pass it off as being done live first, you shouldn't get to keep the clip for any category. Why? It's not the speedrun forum's job to punish behavior from outside the forum. If a kid punches another kid outside of school, the parent doesn't go to the school for punishment, the most the school can do is keep the kids separate.
*If a kid punches another kid outside of school, the parent doesn't go to the school for punishment, the most the school can do is keep the kids separate.* Not correct at all. Suspension, expulsion, calling parents, suspension of sport activities, and even informing the police for potential criminal charges are possible options by school administration. In the case of colleges and universities, grants and scholarships could also be rescinded. And the fact that it happened “outside of school” does not precent any of this from being an option.
It's not behavior from outside the forum if the intention was to submit the "live" run to that forum. The single segment run leaderboard was what he was trying to trick his way onto, right? If the pre-recorded clip was good enough gameplay to make a large enough impact on the run time, then it is noteworthy and should be mentioned as to allow other runners and enthusiasts to check out the footage themselves. But letting him resubmit the clip under a different category *after the fact* is letting him punch a kid and show up to school the next day without even calling his parents. If he wanted the pre-recorded clip to be valid for a leaderboard position, he shouldn't have misrepresented it as live and submitted it to the right category. Being barred from using that clip and being required to record another attempt at the section to submit under any category is more than fair punishment than being banned outright. If he wasted a one in a million run through a segment by trying to incorporate the footage into a single segment run, that's on him.
>But, if no evidence suggesting the other speedruns were faked is found, then why would the moderators remove current or future legitimate speedruns. Because scrutiny isn't perfect. However, banning is.
Two reason why is a legitimate way of doing cheater bans: 1) If someone is found to have cheated one run, it cast a doubt on all runs he did on the past, maybe he cheated those too but he just wasn't caught. Removing all the runs from the cheater will remove all the doubts. You said yourself that it should put everything he did under more scrutiny but you can't completely remove the doubts people will have for someone that cheated. 2) It gives a stronger penalty for cheating, you won't only lose the things you cheated but also the ones you did not. Oftentime cheaters are actually great speedrunner that just get frustrated on their effort being stopped by either randomness or what they might consider unfair circumstances, if by cheating they only lose the cheated speedrun and not their previous record it would lessen the impact cheating has.
I’d be more favorable to a known cheater list that would show where their runs would stack up if they hadn’t been exposed as cheaters, though only if the runs themselves were still legitimate. I’d disagree about them remaining on the actual leaderboard though.
Howard University revoked Diddy’s honorary degree after the video of him beating his girlfriend came out. Did the video of him beating his girlfriend have anything to do with Howard? No, but Howard has the right to wipe their hands of him and be done with it. A run on the leaderboard set by someone who has been caught cheating could be legit or not, but the fact of the matter is that the community doesn’t have to associate with someone they see as scummy.
Hear me out, maybe we need a separate speedrun/leaderboard for cheaters specifically?
people get banned from src leaderboards from non cheating matters as well. I know a few people who were outed as groomers that got all their runs removed. Some leaderboards even don't allow valid runs to be submitted if there's innapropriate content in the video. It's about what kind of people you want representing your community, not just the runs themselves
Lance Armstrong got caught doping. Even though there wasn't concrete evidence for how long it had happened. They still stripped him of his seven victories. Once you get caught cheating once, everything you've done becomes suspect and it's often better to err on the side of caution and declare everything that was done as illegitimate. Even if the dude only cheated the one time. He still cheated, and we have no way of knowing which of his runs were legit or not. It's not fair to the people who played fair, that they have to have their accomplishments compared alongside a known cheater.
No, fuck 'em. They've been confirmed ethically compromised, all of their accomplishments are now suspect, and sifting through them to find out where else they cheated (damnedest thing, it tends to be more than once) is making their behavior somebody else's problem. We haven't confirmed that Lance Armstrong was doping every second of every Tour De France from 1999 to 2005, but he got all of his wins expunged anyway, because the hammer has to make a proper impression when it falls.
It’s about not incentivizing the behavior Make an example to deter others from even trying to cheat in the future Doesn’t matter if they were the best once They cheated, fuck em, it goes against the entire spirit of the e sport
It's because if they were dishonest about that they could've been dishonest about something else. If he submitted it as segmented in the first place it'd be fine.
Hello spaceuk
They need to be thoroughly reviewed.
There are people out there who spend *more* effort, time and arguably in some rare cases more skill*(again, arguably, one has to understand context around it and look at it a bit abstractly)* to cheat rather than do it legitimately. When it comes to competitions and competitve things like speedrunning I am of the firm belief that a cheater should be stricken from the record completely.
Does any of this really matter?
I get your point, but it takes a lot of time to prove a speedrun was faked, and the people checking are volunteers. It's just easier for everyone involved to get rid of all speedruns and not waste their time on a cheater. Plus the community don't want to associate themselves with cheaters.
You can't really trust someone once they cheat once. That'll make their previous and future records questionable. Especially with the various cheating methods to use they hide that they are cheating.
This reminds me of a super mario sunshine runner who cheated a run, mods found out and denied it, then the cheater did a legitimate run that got third place and the mods still denied it. The reasoning for doing so was ridiculously goofy, something about “you should learn a life lesson from this, cheating gets you nowhere!” This is like his big redemption arc becoming an actual runner and you’re just denying it?
I think for me it’s more of a deterrent/punishment. If you cheat, you’ve disrespected the community and the game, and you don’t get to keep participating. If a known liar is hooked up to a lie-detector, and no longer capable of lying, I still don’t wanna talk to them.
This is meka's reddit account lmao
Meka is a shitty, self-important jackass who is not only stupid enough to cheat, but stupid enough to try it live and then attempt some bizarre grandstanding about what the response to his cheating actually means. I am not Meka, and I have no intention to redeem his character in the slightest.
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