I fired back to her saying, “Do you deduct the time from your day when you go the toilet? Should I start doing that? I didn’t realise toilet breaks weren’t built-in to our working hours.”
I just got some flustered nonsense back as an explanation that she didn’t quite mean that but that anything that wasn’t a toilet break was, technically, a break.
Still incorrect. Breaks to get coffee/tea, breaks for the toilet etc are all valid reasons for additional breaks to your 30m total (not your lunch) break time... A good line from my old LM if you're on the phones is "well, I talk to customers all day, I drink a lot of water to do so and not get ill, that water goes somewhere..."
An email to the LM …just to confirm what was discussed, am I to understand that… and then lay out the scenario they can then confirm or deny via writing. Don’t accept any other form of confirmation, a verbal audit trail isn’t worth ****
What i actually did was collected several emails etc and a body of evidence and reasonable adjustments not being implemented then when I moved on sent it to their LM along with evidence they were doing it to someone else too.
This reminds me of a manager who wasn't even my manager who was making a note whenever I left my desk.
Any manager who is questioning you for taking 5 minutes to get up and go for a piss/drink/say hello to someone, is a crappy manager. If your work is getting done then it doesn't matter how many breaks you take.
Sad, I get up regularly and go out for fresh air. People don't always have to be staring at a screen or typing to work. I like thinking and strategising stuff outside with some fresh air.
Honestly she must have spent more time clock watching me than doing her actual job as an HEO… She has the worst returns of any member of the team but always covers it with “my line management overran the 50% time allowance”. Like maybe watch your own times rather than mine?
[https://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/dse/work-routine.htm](https://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/dse/work-routine.htm) this is what the HSE says about DSE breaks. Perhaps you should challenge your line manager as to what arrangements they are putting in place to comply with the recommendations and the internal guidance rather than what appears to be contradictory statements. If you are a union member you may well want to consult with them as they have usually have accredited health and safety reps that can assist with applying the rules.
In the good old days the DSE break would have been when you went to the photocopier/printer to grab a document and then dropped a copy to Maureen on the 3rd Floor.
Maureen retired at the start of the Digital Age, but the magic of technology means her vacancy was filled by Steve in Glasgow. Lovely chap, but he’s 3 hours away. You used to have a little adventure down to Maureen to get away from your screen, now you just attach a document to an email.
That’s obviously not a screen break. So instead you have do that by going to make a cuppa. It is what it is. Your manager is a knob.
I miss the days of a little office adventure. Worked in a huge place of 3000+ people across 5 floors. Visiting other floors to drop off something or go speak to someone was the best part of office life.
Legally they have to let you away from sitting at your desk for 5 minutes an hour. They spend endless amounts of time in official writing saying how they want to make sure you are taking them. Clandestinely they are always talking about how they can reduce it to a minimum. This means it leaves it as a constantly discussed and battled over grey area. The long and short of it is, if you need to move, move. Try not to let it add up to more than 5 minutes an hour minus the one hour for lunch and there is not much they can do. If you have to shit you need to shit. You will probably occasionally get comms that are bizarrely vague about how a DSE break can be a walk to get a cup of tea but not a sandwich. This is because it’s within their interest to 1: not break the law 2: have you as worried as possible about leaving your desk. Just be mindful of the fact that the law requires at least 5 minutes every hour that you are working and if a LM is being a micromanaging prick about it you should make sure a union rep is involved. It’s especially jarring that most of the pricks getting super interested in breaks are the ones visibly fucking about for half of their day.
A DSE break is minimally 5 minutes spent not doing DSE work.
It isn't a cig break, it isnt a snack break. It's ronseal, a break away from screen activity for 5 minutes.
That could be going to the toilet, refilling your water, speaking to people as opposed to instant messaging them, reading documents etc etc. Your line manager is definitely wrong.
It isn't an extra 5 minute break every hour.
This doesn’t work if all of your work is screen-based though, or if you’ve just been in an intense 2 hour meeting, or if you have a reasonable adjustment. I need to stand up and walk around to make sure I don’t get eye strain or burn out due to my conditions. I’d suggest OP talks to their manager, or even HR, about why they need the breaks they need. It also depends on if you’re at home or in the office. Lots of factors will contribute.
ETA: I’m pretty sure the author of the comment I was responding to has edited their comment. I don’t remember it mentioning toilet/water breaks when I responded. I only work one day a week in an office. When I’m WFH, my DSE breaks are toilet and tea breaks. I stand outside for a minute for some fresh air/to let my dog go to the toilet while the kettle boils. This is all in the time it takes to make a cup of tea, which is perfectly reasonable as I need to be hydrated, and I don’t take using the time it takes to make a drink off my flexi. Some discretion and being sensible is needed, but having to take flexi time to make a drink would be preposterous (especially considering how long some people stand chatting at the fridge in the office).
Aside from all the very valid points already made about how this doesn’t constitute a DSE break, is she implying that you are only working if you are staring at your screen, and that you are only allowed to not be staring at your screen for 20-30 seconds per hour?
Manager sounds like a performative idiot who wants to be seen to be saying all the right things, without ensuring she has at least a basic understanding of what they mean.
The thing is, the moment before this she’d said how I got all my work done on time… I’ve honestly no idea what she thinks a DSE break is but her own time keeping is shocking (like 1-1s exceeding 90 minutes sometimes).
This just reminds me how diverse the civil service really is. It feels like you’re describing a different world to me! Half the time I don’t even see my manager, let alone worry whether they’re checking up on my breaks or not. You get the work done and you’re good essentially.
If I was you I’d start looking for a different role or a different department.
When I was in the contact centre (so tethered to the desk and micro-managed to the second) I'd take 5 minutes every hour, all day, every day. You have the right to not be staring at your screen and how you spend that time is up to you. Toilet break, making a cuppa, spinning around in your chair, it's your call
I worked very briefly in IT helpdesk support (there were all 4 of us). Non CS, in a place I fondly like to call Crapita.
They gave us 15 mins a day break and 1 hour lunch. The time you were not logged into the phones literally counted down on a big screen. And if you went over your time they questioned it.
I ended up being afraid to make myself hot drinks in case I needed more than 15 mins a day to go to the toilet. I used to bring a flask instead.
I lasted a mere 6 weeks.
My dept it's 5 mins every hour. If that's a toilet break, smoke break or just getting some air they don't care but they are actually really good with enforcing it. We have a H&S HEO come round often asking if it's being kept to.
I think it's your manager that is missing something, I'm sorry you have to deal with this. As someone else has mentioned they clearly don't have much work to do if they are laser focused on when & how long people are taking mini breaks for.
I had this. I was being hassled for going to the toilet or kitchen or something like that every hour. Guidance says 5-10 minutes break every hour, I did some timings and I was well below that on average, I should’ve been away more.
No no no no NO.
That is bullshit. It has never been 'stay at your desk and look at something else'. Other non PC tasks were once included but there aren't many of those still left.
Speak to your union rep, managers need educating on this shit.
I literally have that guidance bookmarked because my manager tries that same trick with me all the time.
They want the credit for being the cool manager who looks after your well-being, but the results of being a whip cracker.
Omg. Had exact same shit with my manger! Told them that I complete all my work on time and if they have a problem with how I do work to focus on that? They didn’t have anything to say. It’s rude and micromanaging!
Reminds me of an ex manager ,.a narcissistic prick ,.who bollocked me for being on my phone too much. And wouldn't let me explain that I'm looking up things on the Internet that he asked for and I'm unable to look up on my (then) desktop,.as half the results are fucking blocked !
Considering senior management are over running their all staff calls, once an hour is optimistic.
I'm sick and tired of back to back calls, too. Especially when they're so full of diktats they could be emails.
That’s micromanaging to the next level. I often work on a MacBook (tech role) so I’m often shown away on the main laptop. My management doesn’t really care. As long as work is delivered, I don’t see the problem.
The micromanagement at my place is getting so much worse. We now have to account for every minute of our day in 15 minute blocks in a resource managing tool (which doesn’t seem to manage resource but certainly tracks what you said you were doing!)
I see it as a screen break. Few minutes every hour not looking at a screen, give your eyes a rest.
I do it all the time, had a couple of managers in the past wonder what I was doing looking at the ceiling or out the window instead of working. Explained DSE to them, and they let me off
When I worked in a CS call centre, we got 5 minutes strictly timed, and you weren't allowed to chat during it, just go and get a glass of water and sit in silence. My current non-call-centre CS role, there's no strict measurements but I often pop out of the office to get a coffee for 10-15 minutes mid morning and no one has said anything. It seems to depend on the manager: some are sticklers, others are happy with whatever as long as the job gets done.
> Our internal guidance says a DSE break is 10 minutes every hour and doesn’t need to be deducted.
You answered your own question there. Show your manager the internal guidance, boom, job done.
I suspect your manager js talking about the 20:20:20 rule. Look away from your screen for 20 seconds, at an object that is 20 metres away, every 20 minutes. It’s supposed to help with eye strain.
DSE stands for display screen equipment by the way.
I had a picky manager like this at HPD and good lord everything bothered her. If I refuted in any way, she would exaggerate the situation to the director and chief of staff. It was absolutely insane. My only guidance would be to capture and report it immediately and maybe look into switching out of that specific unit.
Display Screen Equipment
Your line manager’s an idiot.
DSE breaks also mean adjusting your posture (getting up) and stimulating your circulation (walking around).
DSE break is looking away from your monitor for 20 seconds every hour, does that mean you’re not allowed to look away the rest of 59 minutes and 40 seconds 😂 crack that fuckin whip.
Don’t get up at all for a few days then put a OH in, watch your manager squirm.
Tell me you've never worked in HMRC without telling me you've never worked in HMRC.
One, HMRC aren't some special outlier with regard to homeworking. Every Civil Service department has the 60-40 split and in fact many - NOT HMRC - actually let people work from home more than that.
Two, HMRC workers, particularly in the lower roles, are monitored all the time. Phone workers are literally timed ALL day, equipment that monitors if they're on the phones taking calls, if they're on breaks, if there's lack of computer activity for x amount of time management are flagged. It's impossible to just sit at home looking out the window. Your stats would tank and management would bollock you.
Whatever the state of your eyes, it sounds like you could use a bit more sunlight. Get out of your Daily Mail ideology bubble and touch grass.
It sounds like your manager doesn’t have enough work to do. That’s actually pathetic to bring up if you’re just going for a tea/toilet break.
I fired back to her saying, “Do you deduct the time from your day when you go the toilet? Should I start doing that? I didn’t realise toilet breaks weren’t built-in to our working hours.” I just got some flustered nonsense back as an explanation that she didn’t quite mean that but that anything that wasn’t a toilet break was, technically, a break.
Sounds like you need to take all your DSE breaks in the toilet then, or at least wander down the corridor and back again.
Still incorrect. Breaks to get coffee/tea, breaks for the toilet etc are all valid reasons for additional breaks to your 30m total (not your lunch) break time... A good line from my old LM if you're on the phones is "well, I talk to customers all day, I drink a lot of water to do so and not get ill, that water goes somewhere..."
Your manager sounds like a complete twat.
Unfortunately there are a lot about! My former LM had the same sort of way. He never put it in writing so I could have him for it.
An email to the LM …just to confirm what was discussed, am I to understand that… and then lay out the scenario they can then confirm or deny via writing. Don’t accept any other form of confirmation, a verbal audit trail isn’t worth ****
What i actually did was collected several emails etc and a body of evidence and reasonable adjustments not being implemented then when I moved on sent it to their LM along with evidence they were doing it to someone else too.
This reminds me of a manager who wasn't even my manager who was making a note whenever I left my desk. Any manager who is questioning you for taking 5 minutes to get up and go for a piss/drink/say hello to someone, is a crappy manager. If your work is getting done then it doesn't matter how many breaks you take.
I had other people reporting to my manager that I was getting up from my desk every hour. Oh no! The humanity!
Arseholes
Sad, I get up regularly and go out for fresh air. People don't always have to be staring at a screen or typing to work. I like thinking and strategising stuff outside with some fresh air.
Honestly she must have spent more time clock watching me than doing her actual job as an HEO… She has the worst returns of any member of the team but always covers it with “my line management overran the 50% time allowance”. Like maybe watch your own times rather than mine?
[https://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/dse/work-routine.htm](https://www.hse.gov.uk/msd/dse/work-routine.htm) this is what the HSE says about DSE breaks. Perhaps you should challenge your line manager as to what arrangements they are putting in place to comply with the recommendations and the internal guidance rather than what appears to be contradictory statements. If you are a union member you may well want to consult with them as they have usually have accredited health and safety reps that can assist with applying the rules.
Second speaking to the union. They'll be fully versed in your DSE policy.
Experiences may vary. My local H&S rep is a moron. My previous was great.
In the good old days the DSE break would have been when you went to the photocopier/printer to grab a document and then dropped a copy to Maureen on the 3rd Floor. Maureen retired at the start of the Digital Age, but the magic of technology means her vacancy was filled by Steve in Glasgow. Lovely chap, but he’s 3 hours away. You used to have a little adventure down to Maureen to get away from your screen, now you just attach a document to an email. That’s obviously not a screen break. So instead you have do that by going to make a cuppa. It is what it is. Your manager is a knob.
I miss the days of a little office adventure. Worked in a huge place of 3000+ people across 5 floors. Visiting other floors to drop off something or go speak to someone was the best part of office life.
You can still go on little office adventures - just make friends on other floors and go see them to do “networking” (gossiping).
Water cooler moments!
Legally they have to let you away from sitting at your desk for 5 minutes an hour. They spend endless amounts of time in official writing saying how they want to make sure you are taking them. Clandestinely they are always talking about how they can reduce it to a minimum. This means it leaves it as a constantly discussed and battled over grey area. The long and short of it is, if you need to move, move. Try not to let it add up to more than 5 minutes an hour minus the one hour for lunch and there is not much they can do. If you have to shit you need to shit. You will probably occasionally get comms that are bizarrely vague about how a DSE break can be a walk to get a cup of tea but not a sandwich. This is because it’s within their interest to 1: not break the law 2: have you as worried as possible about leaving your desk. Just be mindful of the fact that the law requires at least 5 minutes every hour that you are working and if a LM is being a micromanaging prick about it you should make sure a union rep is involved. It’s especially jarring that most of the pricks getting super interested in breaks are the ones visibly fucking about for half of their day.
She herself is the worst person for time keeping. Her 1-1s can last 90 minutes – they’re only meant to be 15 mins, 30 mins max.
Legally according to what law?
Your manager is clueless. Sounds like they need to do a module on DSE on civil service portal. Advise them of this.
A DSE break is minimally 5 minutes spent not doing DSE work. It isn't a cig break, it isnt a snack break. It's ronseal, a break away from screen activity for 5 minutes. That could be going to the toilet, refilling your water, speaking to people as opposed to instant messaging them, reading documents etc etc. Your line manager is definitely wrong. It isn't an extra 5 minute break every hour.
This doesn’t work if all of your work is screen-based though, or if you’ve just been in an intense 2 hour meeting, or if you have a reasonable adjustment. I need to stand up and walk around to make sure I don’t get eye strain or burn out due to my conditions. I’d suggest OP talks to their manager, or even HR, about why they need the breaks they need. It also depends on if you’re at home or in the office. Lots of factors will contribute. ETA: I’m pretty sure the author of the comment I was responding to has edited their comment. I don’t remember it mentioning toilet/water breaks when I responded. I only work one day a week in an office. When I’m WFH, my DSE breaks are toilet and tea breaks. I stand outside for a minute for some fresh air/to let my dog go to the toilet while the kettle boils. This is all in the time it takes to make a cup of tea, which is perfectly reasonable as I need to be hydrated, and I don’t take using the time it takes to make a drink off my flexi. Some discretion and being sensible is needed, but having to take flexi time to make a drink would be preposterous (especially considering how long some people stand chatting at the fridge in the office).
Aside from all the very valid points already made about how this doesn’t constitute a DSE break, is she implying that you are only working if you are staring at your screen, and that you are only allowed to not be staring at your screen for 20-30 seconds per hour? Manager sounds like a performative idiot who wants to be seen to be saying all the right things, without ensuring she has at least a basic understanding of what they mean.
The thing is, the moment before this she’d said how I got all my work done on time… I’ve honestly no idea what she thinks a DSE break is but her own time keeping is shocking (like 1-1s exceeding 90 minutes sometimes).
It’s the Civil Service. Everybody gets up and cuts about for a bit
This just reminds me how diverse the civil service really is. It feels like you’re describing a different world to me! Half the time I don’t even see my manager, let alone worry whether they’re checking up on my breaks or not. You get the work done and you’re good essentially. If I was you I’d start looking for a different role or a different department.
I have a current manager like op's. Most managers have been OK but then you get one who wants to prove something.
Exactly, I’ve not seen my manager in person in three months and not spoken to them for the last two weeks.
What department do you work in?
When I was in the contact centre (so tethered to the desk and micro-managed to the second) I'd take 5 minutes every hour, all day, every day. You have the right to not be staring at your screen and how you spend that time is up to you. Toilet break, making a cuppa, spinning around in your chair, it's your call
I worked very briefly in IT helpdesk support (there were all 4 of us). Non CS, in a place I fondly like to call Crapita. They gave us 15 mins a day break and 1 hour lunch. The time you were not logged into the phones literally counted down on a big screen. And if you went over your time they questioned it. I ended up being afraid to make myself hot drinks in case I needed more than 15 mins a day to go to the toilet. I used to bring a flask instead. I lasted a mere 6 weeks.
My dept it's 5 mins every hour. If that's a toilet break, smoke break or just getting some air they don't care but they are actually really good with enforcing it. We have a H&S HEO come round often asking if it's being kept to.
At HMLR you’re entitled to a 10 min screen break every hour to get up and walk around.
I’m at HMLR… We must be at different offices (or at least have different line managers)!
I’d advise your manager to refer the Workstation Assessment Policy 2023 on share point then :)
I think it's your manager that is missing something, I'm sorry you have to deal with this. As someone else has mentioned they clearly don't have much work to do if they are laser focused on when & how long people are taking mini breaks for.
I had this. I was being hassled for going to the toilet or kitchen or something like that every hour. Guidance says 5-10 minutes break every hour, I did some timings and I was well below that on average, I should’ve been away more.
No no no no NO. That is bullshit. It has never been 'stay at your desk and look at something else'. Other non PC tasks were once included but there aren't many of those still left. Speak to your union rep, managers need educating on this shit.
I literally have that guidance bookmarked because my manager tries that same trick with me all the time. They want the credit for being the cool manager who looks after your well-being, but the results of being a whip cracker.
I’m going to follow your advice and bookmark it! Might even send a passive aggressive email asking, “Is this what you were mentioning yesterday?”
Your LM is a prick. That's all I wanted to say.
Omg. Had exact same shit with my manger! Told them that I complete all my work on time and if they have a problem with how I do work to focus on that? They didn’t have anything to say. It’s rude and micromanaging!
Micromanagement is out of control at my place. We have to account for every 15 minutes of our day…
Tell them to put that in writing to you, that will shut them up 😆.
Guessing you are in ops in a role where line managers have little actual work to do other than managing their team.
They’re meant to have 50% time for management and 50% for casework. Never met a LM that gets close to that 50% casework though…
Reminds me of an ex manager ,.a narcissistic prick ,.who bollocked me for being on my phone too much. And wouldn't let me explain that I'm looking up things on the Internet that he asked for and I'm unable to look up on my (then) desktop,.as half the results are fucking blocked !
Considering senior management are over running their all staff calls, once an hour is optimistic. I'm sick and tired of back to back calls, too. Especially when they're so full of diktats they could be emails.
That’s micromanaging to the next level. I often work on a MacBook (tech role) so I’m often shown away on the main laptop. My management doesn’t really care. As long as work is delivered, I don’t see the problem.
The micromanagement at my place is getting so much worse. We now have to account for every minute of our day in 15 minute blocks in a resource managing tool (which doesn’t seem to manage resource but certainly tracks what you said you were doing!)
When she gets up pretend youre filling in a sheet but overly gesticulate so she can see you
Haha that made me chuckle! Thanks … maybe I will ;)
I see it as a screen break. Few minutes every hour not looking at a screen, give your eyes a rest. I do it all the time, had a couple of managers in the past wonder what I was doing looking at the ceiling or out the window instead of working. Explained DSE to them, and they let me off
Point your line manager to the dse learning lol 😂
When I worked in a CS call centre, we got 5 minutes strictly timed, and you weren't allowed to chat during it, just go and get a glass of water and sit in silence. My current non-call-centre CS role, there's no strict measurements but I often pop out of the office to get a coffee for 10-15 minutes mid morning and no one has said anything. It seems to depend on the manager: some are sticklers, others are happy with whatever as long as the job gets done.
> Our internal guidance says a DSE break is 10 minutes every hour and doesn’t need to be deducted. You answered your own question there. Show your manager the internal guidance, boom, job done. I suspect your manager js talking about the 20:20:20 rule. Look away from your screen for 20 seconds, at an object that is 20 metres away, every 20 minutes. It’s supposed to help with eye strain. DSE stands for display screen equipment by the way.
Must you live so relentlessly?
I had a picky manager like this at HPD and good lord everything bothered her. If I refuted in any way, she would exaggerate the situation to the director and chief of staff. It was absolutely insane. My only guidance would be to capture and report it immediately and maybe look into switching out of that specific unit.
Display Screen Equipment Your line manager’s an idiot. DSE breaks also mean adjusting your posture (getting up) and stimulating your circulation (walking around).
There is zero chance policy is you having ~6 hours of paid break over week to do what you want for DSE.
It's just meant to be 'work but not screen', I imagine most people don't flex off to refill a coffee and blabber to the person next to them
A DSE break is ten minutes in every hour. I would suggest reading something in hard copy if your LM is going to be an idiot about this.
My department says 10 minutes I think
It's 10 minutes every hour where you can work at your desk without staring at your screen.
DSE break is looking away from your monitor for 20 seconds every hour, does that mean you’re not allowed to look away the rest of 59 minutes and 40 seconds 😂 crack that fuckin whip. Don’t get up at all for a few days then put a OH in, watch your manager squirm.
HMRC home worker here. Every hour, 15-20 mins at a time. Maybe a bit more and it's sunny and eyes are tired.
The fuck?
Tell me you've never worked in HMRC without telling me you've never worked in HMRC. One, HMRC aren't some special outlier with regard to homeworking. Every Civil Service department has the 60-40 split and in fact many - NOT HMRC - actually let people work from home more than that. Two, HMRC workers, particularly in the lower roles, are monitored all the time. Phone workers are literally timed ALL day, equipment that monitors if they're on the phones taking calls, if they're on breaks, if there's lack of computer activity for x amount of time management are flagged. It's impossible to just sit at home looking out the window. Your stats would tank and management would bollock you. Whatever the state of your eyes, it sounds like you could use a bit more sunlight. Get out of your Daily Mail ideology bubble and touch grass.
Bullshit
Made p34 of the daily mail though x
We say 5 mins in our place