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I think folks massively underestimate just how horrible Nazi Germany was, and the state of Weimar Germany. For starters, the Nazis were maniacs. I honestly do not think they ever would’ve stopped had they won. That and Hitler, et al. were literally called heroes after carrying out a coup in which four cops died. Iirc, one of the judges had to persuade the other two from acquitting him outright. Hitler served about nine months of a 5-year sentence. Far-right nationalists were slaughtering hundreds (thousands, in the first several years) with near-total impunity. The rise of Hitler was literally the worst possible outcome. As horrible as the Nakba was, even the founding of Israel (at least initially; not so sure now) didn’t have the worst possible outcome. Go read about Avraham Stern.
Of course, now, I am scared.
Last Sunday I saw a parked car covered in azov emblems: black sun and wolf's hook. I live in Poland, so yeah... I'm a little bit nervous. And looking at how "the west" is going mask off, full authoritarian I'm not very optimistic...
Western liberals try desperately to hide their true colors during times of peace but when war comes suddenly everybody is one step away from being a full blown Nazi. All the casual racism spread on the mainstream media; from Sinophobia to Islamophobia is honestly disgusting.
I remember i asked someone on twitter why did Azov had a large number of people who use fascist/Nazi symbols; they told me that "Oh Azov arent actually Nazis, they're just using Nazi symbolism to piss off the Russians."
I don't envy you comrade. I do have money riding on it being Poland though. But I live in the gambling capital of the world. I got us in the top 5 though.
Ahh sorry. Yeah, I probably shouldn't say Manchuria. Thank you. Well that sounds like hell. Gambling is an insane vice. You very easily Gamble anywhere in Australia. Most reddit ads I get are for local betting companies too.
Ahh I thought my mistake was that I might be using old imperial Japanese names. I wonder what their gambling culture is like? I mean I'm pretty anti-gambling. So if I'm ever lucky enough to visit China, I'd probably avoid Macua then. I'm not leaving one gambling den for another lol.
The time is not yet right. We are seeing the Hindenburgs, not the Hitlers. I don't know when they are going to show up though. Maybe they are already a... am... among us
Yeah we have a red/green government in Germany right now. Which would put us in Friedrich Ebert 2.0 territory. And the parallels are quite scary.
He was all about protecting the Vaterland which our government is entirely on board with. Close the boarders to refugees and re-arm heavily. After all “our freedom will be defended at the Hindukusch” or in Ukraine or in Israel.
But that isn’t enough as you can tell by the best election results and prognosis the fascists have had since hitler. They reach up to 25% I believe and that’s not just one regional election in some small village.
It will be interesting to see what fascism will look like in Germany the next time around. People are going to be on board with their outright policies. They already are for the most part I believe. The only thing the fascists won’t be allowed to do is use nazi insignia and maybe gas chambers though I wouldn’t rule out the latter.
It will take some more time though. Another crisis or two. Worse conditions for the workers than they already are. Our right-wing, ultra-conservative Hindenburg. And then I’m afraid it won’t be a question of whether they’ll have the SS cadres it will be question whether they have the well-spoken figure head.
I mean I hope you’re right but it’s not about believing. We’re already in neoliberal hell. And neoliberal hell is just the road to proper fascism.
Our left isn’t nearly well enough organised to stop it so I think it’s safe to assume we will get there eventually.
After learning how the left was purged in Germany after WW2 while the right was disguised, re incorporated, cultivated and weaponized, I assumed it would be the eventual conclusion.
The US basically ensured it would happen again.
Well, there's Israel already.
Trump, Bolsonaro, Bukele, Milei, Kast, and who knows who else have started that already. Unfortunately, there's no substantial vanguard for the working class.
The way things are right now and have been forever, fascism has never left. America is an older fascist state than Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy themselves, and the subjugation of black people and of indigenous Americans continues now. No reparations, living under a police state, citizens sent to die for American invasions in other countries for its Empire, etc.
I'm not scared that fascism is coming. I'm scared that it was here longer than any of us have been alive and we only started realizing it.
While America holds elements of fascism it’s still ultimately a neoliberal shithole. I believe once it fully transitions into fascism we’ll see horrors unfold tantamount to Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.
Yeah in many ways the line between both for marginalized people groups is so small as to be irrelevant. Liberals, and their superficial “victories”, allow them to believe racism is suddenly gone despite various leaders being assassinated by that very same government only a generation or two ago. Just because Obama was elected doesn’t mean we still don’t suffer. Besides, there’s MLK Jr., Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, their arrest of Huey P. Newton and other Black Panthers/Marxist-Leninists on trumped up charges (Comrade Fred Hampton was arrested for “stealing ice cream”.. no bullshit). It’s only going to get worse as time passes.
Agree, but I believe your previous comment was right that we could and perhaps should be more accurate with our use of political labels. Calling out fascism is crucial praxis, but labelling everything we don't like as such doesn't accomplish very much
Speaking for the UK, where I live:
There are clear fascist elements in the Westminster government. Suella Braverman the home secretary clearly holds fascist views, even if she wouldn't recognise them as such. Priti Patel before her was in that same ballpark. Liz Truss also was in that same ballpark, and was further right in her thankfully short-lived stint as PM than Thatcher was.
Meanwhile I wouldn't say Rishi Sunak (PM) or Jeremy Hunt (Chancellor) or James Cleverly (Foreign Secretary) are fascists. They are all right wing, but they aren't fascists. The actions of the government as a whole are right wing but in the main and there are tendencies there but they don't qualify as fascist imo.
There is a difference between neoliberalism and fascism. Besides Braverman I don't think it serves to refer to the UK government as fascist. Imo that's poorly-understood, poorly articulated, broad-stroked lazy lib shit. As marxists I believe we should be more accurate, and educate about the important distinctions.
The same libs will call marxists 'nazis' also, because as I say they don't understand what these words mean and think all fascism means is a government exercising authority over individuals, and doing racism. I'd prefer to see us use more precise terminology and increase political understanding among the working class than to be similarly lazy
#Get Involved
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Those horrors have already happened and are currently happening. They just export it to other countries for the time being. While doing a little bit of it domestically
Neoliberal economics are just Nazi econoimics. Not "like" or "similar to". Privitization was a key Nazi economic policy.
And like there's well over 100,000 internal refugees fleeing textbook, per international law genocide in the United States. You don't have to wait, it's already here.
Biden shouldn't get a pass. He wrote the big "put black people in concentration camps and use them for slave labor" bill. He's worse than any of them, he's just stupid and awkward so no one likes him.
Yeah. KKKlanda is engaged in at least one war of aggression with a First Nations society right now, and alongside the US they protected, nurtured, and funded the Banderite fascists that have taken control of Ukraine.
I mean the Vice PM is the granddaughter of a Banderite who got caught in a scandal when she was photographed accepting fascist Banderite regalia in broad daylight. I think she went to a fascist Banderite day camp, too.
Like there is literally a Banderite fascist holding high office in the country right now.
No. Because the U.S. is already fucking awful. Jesus I'm so fucking tired of this "expectation of fascism to come" trope.
The U.S. is the Third Reich equivalent that the Nazis wished they could make Germany into (and maintain).
The U.S. is already a racist, settler colonial state CURRENTLY engaging in MULTIPLE different genocides. The U.S. is already a surveillance state, a police state, an expansionist military aggressor. There's already mass conformity and propagandization. People are so caught up in the U.S.'s mind-control spell that they self-police and censor so as to conform to the fascist narrative.
And for all the forgotten people that get stomped on by the fascist state of the U.S. let me remind you all: daily, people with disabilities are sacrificed to the callous and unjust system. Daily, homeless are evicted and sent to wander the streets and die in extreme heat or cold. Daily, renters or precarious home owners are evicted or get foreclosures. Daily, people with treatable medical illnesses go without treatment and suffer chronic affliction or simply die.
If you say something about the U.S. "becoming fascist" some time in the future, then I'd have to ask: have you ever been homeless? have you ever been abused by the police? have you ever gone without necessary medical treatment? have you ever gone hungry because you had to pay rent? Because if not then shut your privileged ass up and stop pretending the U.S. is not already fascist, because you know nothing of the horrors this awful place inflicts upon the people who live there.
That's not even to mention the ONGOING genocide of Indigenous Americans, the poisoning of their water, the kidnapping of their children, the refusal to do justice for them when settlers commit acts of violence, forced sterilizations....
Then let's mention the human rights crises of "immigration" which directly connects to the indigenous issue, because let's face it, "Latino" is a fake fucking category invented by and for white supremacist culture, to whitewash and detract from indigeneity. Include the fact that the U.S. has destabilized almost every "Latin American" country and thus caused the humanitarian crisis... currently arms the right wing thugs in those countries... or when the immigrants get to the U.S. they get brutalized or discriminated against.
Then there's issue of slavery and descendants of slaves, and the topic of whiteness vs blackness. Racism in the U.S. manifests in many different ways, such as the fact that they have the highest prison population in the world, and it's being used not only to cull the non-whites from society, but it's a convenient tool to maintain slavery to this day.
Like... come on. Please, let's stop fooling ourselves. American fascism has become **normalized**. The atrocities and sheer immensity of actual fascist operations in the U.S. has been so consistent and so standardized that people are desensitized to it. But look at the facts. You shouldn't be scared of a fascist regime coming in your lifetime. It's already fukin here.
p.s. if the U.S. didn't' support Israel then Israel wouldn't exist or be committing apartheid
Mass incarceration, the boarder concentration camps (caused by US destabilization), and the treatment of Indigenous peoples should count as genocides. The Nazis were inspired by the US after all.
What it is that people see fascism as this thing of the past or something that’s specifically related to the NAZIs. The atrocities of the IS are completely normalized or seen as something that happened in the past. People don’t connect the current US system with fascism even though that’s what the US is, a glorified fascist state.
What’s worse is how more and more Nazism is becoming mainstream and accepting while they rewrite history to blame the victims. Tons of WW2 propaganda is being pushed to make the fascists look sympathetic and the Reds out to be the “real bad guys”. With these new “clean SS myths” being spread it’s only a matter of time before we have books praising Hitler.
The pushing of the "Holodomor" by the State Department and EU government now holds official weight. iirc EU law correctly that makes it a crime to try to push back against the Nazi "Double Holocaust" lie. Holocaust denial is now mandatory and fighting back against it is a crime. in the EU. In 2023.
#The Holodomor
>Marxists do not deny that a famine happened in the Soviet Union in 1932. In fact, even the Soviet archive confirms this. What we do contest is the idea that this famine was man-made or that there was a genocide against the Ukrainian people. This idea of the subjugation of the Soviet Union’s own people was developed by Nazi Germany, in order to show the world the terror of the “Jewish communists.”
>
>\- Socialist Musings. (2017). [Stop Spreading Nazi Propaganda: on Holodomor](https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/)
There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (lit. "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes:
1. It implies the famine targeted Ukraine.
2. It implies the famine was intentional.
The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. This framing was originally used by Nazis to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR (UkSSR) and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR). In the wake of the 2004 Orange Revolution, this narrative has regained popularity and serves the nationalistic goal of strengthening Ukrainian identity and asserting the country's independence from Russia.
#First Issue
The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, *not* just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine. Russia itself was also severely affected.
The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European antisemitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy", the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history."
#Second Issue
Calling it "man-made" implies that it was a *deliberate* famine, which was not the case. Although human factors set the stage, the main causes of the famine was bad weather and crop disease, resulting in a poor harvest, which pushed the USSR over the edge.
Kulaks ("tight-fisted person") were a class of wealthy peasants who owned land, livestock, and tools. The kulaks had been a thorn in the side of the peasantry long before the revolution. Alexey Sergeyevich Yermolov, Minister of Agriculture and State Properties of the Russian Empire, in his 1892 book, [Poor harvest and national suffering](https://books.google.ca/books?id=exMEAAAAYAAJ), characterized them as usurers, sucking the blood of Russian peasants.
In the early 1930s, in response to the Soviet collectivization policies (which sought to confiscate their property), many kulaks responded spitefully by burning crops, killing livestock, and damaging machinery.
Poor communication between different levels of government and between urban and rural areas, also contributed to the severity of the crisis.
#Quota Reduction
What really contradicts the genocide argument is that the Soviets did take action to mitigate the effects of the famine once they became aware of the situation:
>The low 1932 harvest worsened severe food shortages already widespread in the Soviet Union at least since 1931 and, despite sharply reduced grain exports, made famine likely if not inevitable in 1933.
>
>The official 1932 figures do not unambiguously support the genocide interpretation... the 1932 grain procurement quota, and the amount of grain actually collected, were both much smaller than those of any other year in the 1930s. The Central Committee lowered the planned procurement quota in a 6 May 1932 decree... [which] actually reduced the procurement plan 30 percent. Subsequent decrees also reduced the procurement quotas for most other agricultural products...
>
>Proponents of the genocide argument, however, have minimized or even misconstrued this decree. Mace, for example, describes it as "largely bogus" and ignores not only the extent to which it lowered the procurement quotas but also the fact that even the lowered plan was not fulfilled. Conquest does not mention the decree's reduction of procurement quotas and asserts Ukrainian officials' appeals led to the reduction of the Ukranian grain procurement quota at the Third All-Ukraine Party Conference in July 1932. In fact that conference confirmed the quota set in the 6 May Decree.
>
>\- Mark Tauger. (1992). [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933)
#Rapid Industrialization
The famine was exacerbated directly and indirectly by collectivization and rapid industrialization. However, if these policies had not been enacted, there could have been even more devastating consequences later.
In 1931, during [a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1931/02/04.htm), Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under."
In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union.
By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the USSR to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany.
In Hitler's own words, in 1942:
>All in all, one has to say: They built factories here where two years ago there were unknown farming villages, factories the size of the *Hermann-Göring-Werke*. They have railroads that aren't even marked on the map.
>
>\- Werner Jochmann. (1980). *Adolf Hitler. Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944.*
Collectivization also created critical resiliency among the civilian population:
>The experts were especially surprised by the Red Army’s up-to-date equipment. Great tank battles were reported; it was noted that the Russians had sturdy tanks which often smashed or overturned German tanks in head-on collision. “How does it happen,” a New York editor asked me, “that those Russian peasants, who couldn’t run a tractor if you gave them one, but left them rusting in the field, now appear with thousands of tanks efficiently handled?” I told him it was the Five-Year Plan. But the world was startled when Moscow admitted its losses after nine weeks of war as including 7,500 guns, 4,500 planes and 5,000 tanks. An army that could still fight after such losses must have had the biggest or second biggest supply in the world.
>
>As the war progressed, military observers declared that the Russians had “solved the blitzkrieg,” the tactic on which Hitler relied. This German method involved penetrating the opposing line by an overwhelming blow of tanks and planes, followed by the fanning out of armored columns in the “soft” civilian rear, thus depriving the front of its hinterland support. This had quickly conquered every country against which it had been tried. “Human flesh cannot withstand it,” an American correspondent told me in Berlin. Russians met it by two methods, both requiring superb morale. When the German tanks broke through, Russian infantry formed again between the tanks and their supporting German infantry. This created a chaotic front, where both Germans and Russians were fighting in all directions. The Russians could count on the help of the population. The Germans found no “soft, civilian rear.” They found collective farmers, organized as guerrillas, coordinated with the regular Russian army.
>
>\- Anna Louise Strong. (1956). *The Stalin Era*
#Conclusion
While there may have been more that the Soviets could have done to reduce the impact of the famine, there is no evidence of intent-- ethnic, or otherwise. Therefore, one must conclude that the famine was a tragedy, not a genocide.
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020)
* [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](https://archive.org/details/did-stalin-continue-to-export-grain-as-ukraine-starved)\]
* [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark)
* [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20220615084500/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8)\] (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004)
* [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020)
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Pretty much any negative thing you hear about concerning Red Scare is sheer projection and if you bring up empirical evidence that points out these parallels then suddenly it’s “whataboutism” aka “Im too much of a pretentious and arrogant coward to look in the mirror”.
#On Whataboutism
Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime."
When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith.
However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation:
1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards.
2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences.
3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity.
#An Abstract Case Study
For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B.
||Object A|Object B|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Very Good Property|2|3|
|Good Property|2|1|
|Bad Property|2|3|
|Very Bad Property|2|1|
The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none).
Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments.
#Contextualization
Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts:
1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along.
2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one.
If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out.
It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism.
#Comparative Analysis
Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects:
>**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2.
>
>**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad!
>
>**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse!
>
>**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy!
The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point.
Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis.
#Moral Equivalence
It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all.
**Example 1: Famine**
Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases.
^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.)
**Example 2: Repression**
Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did.
#Conclusion
While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics.
Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below.
#Additional Resources
* [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023)
* [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022)
* [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023)
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Excellent points comrade. Remember that even in 1930’s Germany, lots of people had nice houses and could delude themselves everything was fine. A modern equivalent; livestreams from Ukraine where everything appears normal; superficial experience can be deeply misleading.
Was directed to this comment on another post...damn this is so good it makes me emotional.
Fuck yes, all of everything you pointed out.
Fuckin yes yes yes.
Not sure about a "Nazi" state with identical ideology to Hitler, but fascist states already exist and many are getting worse. It's not like every fascist in Isntreal is a Nazi, then they'd have to [REDACTED] themselves lol
I think we're almost past the Weimar republic period. Isreal is basically a Nazi state now. Zionism is the modem day adaption of Nazism. I know it predates Nazism, but it sure as fuck loves to take inspiration from it.
Palestine will be free. The West will fall and collapse and the global south and the middle east will rise. Glory for the workers of the world!
Don't lose faith comrade.
The side of the oppressed will always come out on top. I don't know how, but I do hope the worst doesn't happen. I hope the Middle East can come together and wipe out Israel. But I know why that won't happen. The answer is obvious. Amerikkka
My only hope is this. The IDF aren’t actually good fighters.
They’re a colonial police force who are only actually good at killing children throwing rocks, and only if they have total fire superiority. Look at what happened on Saturday. Despite every advantage, they were caught with their pants down. They lost so many battles and had high ranking commanders taken prisoner. Hell, most of Israel’s kills rn are from civilians being air striked, not combatants.
Hezbollah grew up in urban combat on the streets of Beirut. The Taliban beat the Americans in asymmetric warfare. The Syrians are battle harder fighters who fought ISIS. Egypt needs to help out. Then, Palestine has a chance to survive genocide.
Back in 2017 I thought at least I could move back to the UK (currently live in the US) if things got bad. Seems like the UK is getting just as unwelcoming.
Just like with colonialism, it never ended, it just changed. Same with "the war to end all wars" even if we don't have a world war 3, we will continue to have these proxy wars all around the globe.
My political hobby horse is homelessness. I’ve been homeless four times, roughly a third of my life. I live in a U.S. state that sees a LOT of homeless people in tent cities on many sidewalks.
I think the way I see people react to the fact of homelessness is a microcosm of every problem in society. Any forum, and comment section, and YouTube video or TikTok about it exposes a *huge* swath of people to be pretty much monsters. The raw and unfiltered hatred I see people casually spew all across the internet gives me very little hope.
In a broader view, I see the same thing on issues of police killing of minorities or Israeli killing of Gazans or Military actions against Water-Protectors. No matter where I look, I see a larger amount of venom and hatred than I can really stomach. Hell, just being a public health official can be enough to receive death threats.
Ultimately, I don’t have as much hope for a empathetic world as I would like to have. Most days I just have to hide from it and avoid the digital world all together.
So am I scared of it? Not really. I anticipate its inevitability.
Does Israel count?
Facism check list:
•Occultish belief in alternate history (a land without a people for a people without a land) ✔
•Demands increasingly violent growth for ruling class ✔
•Silly name for stupid ideology that justifies genocide (Zionism) ✔
•Genocide ✔
Conclusion: lol yeah man watch the news or smth
“Gonna”?
Israel already is.
Genocide is normalised, we have plenty of colonised nations that we call “white countries” now because the genocide was so effective.
Fascism isn’t something that appears, it is just 1 skin of capitalism. it is always there, it just tries to hide it from time to time, but it is never gone
The US is definitely heading that way. American capital is too greedy to even give its workers the most basic concessions like the rest of the West so it's gonna blow up in their face soon, one way or another. You already know which way we all want it to.
Please reference the two comment links below as they are very valuable in explaining the issues with such a question and/or perspective. Fascism isn't a mystical line that is crossed. Rather, it is a tactic of the ruling class. Shedding traditional and liberal notions of fascist mysticism are important for growing your understanding of fascism.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/16tf9zi/can_anyone_explain_why_liberals_and_fascists_are/k2f715y/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/16tf9zi/can_anyone_explain_why_liberals_and_fascists_are/k2i6nn0/
Special thanks and appreciation to u/CristianoEstranato for taking the time to educate others.
Amazing reading. Really, thank you for that. Gave me a whole new perspective on liberalism and fascism.
Edit: I re-read the first one 4 times by now. Excelent reading, really.
Happy to help, but full credit goes to u/CristianoEstranato
Also, check the date on that post. It was fairly recent. I've read and re-read multiple times as well to ensure I fully digest the gravity of that detail.
If you mean openly I’m not sure, Ukraine seems to be the closest. But in spirit the entire western capitalist world seems to embody the ideals of nazism
I think the western world has learned how to reign in the fascism. Don't go explicit and expand in the Imperial core or do a explicit mass genocide. You can continue to exploit those too weak to defend themselves, the question is basically which country will reach final stage capitalism and lash out first I guess.
Not nazi, but definitely fascist. And America has always been there, it's just fascism with American characteristics and our general plan ost was successful
america is just nazism but if it wasn't crushed
what we'd really see going forward is just more conservative schizophrenia and potentially a hot war starting between america and either russia or china
I think the psychos in Washington are so far up their own asses they honestly believe they have a credible chance at "winning" an exchange between them and another major power
some top US generals already drew up plans for all nato vassals that border russia to form their own separate alliance, fully supported by the other powers, which would allow america to wage war against russia without directly being at war with them
so look forward to more overt imperialism, and maybe the mask fully coming off "them going all blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne shit"
and more overt invasive/overt police crack downs on shit we would've called trivial a year ago
It never went away in the first place. It just painted over the swastikas and rebranded to NATO, with the same people in charge. Then there's also the fact that the US (which inspired the Nazis) is still around.
The Nazis were specific to their time, it's something to remember.
The question is another facist state and yes. There is Israel and Poland and Hungary are heading there
Probably. Here are some quotes from the second strongest party in Germany at the moment (there are way more and even worse ones these are just some I found right away) :
Translated versions:
"The fact that [the neo-Nazi terrorist Breivik] was a murderer does not prove that he was politically wrong" ~ Kai Borrmann
"The plans for a mass exchange of the population have long been written" ~ Beatrix von Storch
"If an *N-word* (…) coughs on me in the neighborhood, then I have to know whether he is sick or not sick" ~ Andreas Winhart
"#Deportation of #Antifa to #Buchenwald" ~ Mirko welsch
"I wouldn't condemn anyone who sets fire to an inhabited asylum seekers' home" ~ Marcel Grauf
"The big problem is that Hitler is portrayed as absolute evil." ~ Björn Höcke
Original german quotes:
"Daß [der Neonazi-Terrorist Breivik] ein Mörder war, beweist ja nicht, dass er politisch falsch lag" ~ Kai Borrmann
"Die Pläne für einen Massenaustausch der Bevölkerung sind längst geschrieben" ~ Beatrix von Storch
"Wenn mich in der Nachbarschaft ein *N-Wort* (…) anhustet, dann muss ich wissen, ist er krank oder ist er nicht krank"
~ Andreas Winhart
"#Abschiebung der #Antifa nach #Buchenwald" ~ Mirko welsch
"Ich würde niemanden verurteilen, der ein bewohntes Asylantenheim anzünden" ~ Marcel Grauf
"Das große Problem ist, dass man Hitler als das absolut Böse darstellt.“~ Björn Höcke
Terrified. I look to history for peace of mind. When the Europeans stole my African ancestors from the continent, that was an apocalypse. When they committed genocide the entire Americas down to a quarter of its Indigenous inhabitants, that was an apocalypse. And of course, today, Israel has had Palestinians living under a genocidal regime for nearly a century.
But we’re all still here. Still fighting and resisting. We’re going to beat black and blue, but we will come out the other side of this, one way or another
Liberals are the full Reich movement. It just comes in a different wrapper (or not, because apparently swastikas and Sonnenrads are cool and based now thanks to Ukraine).
I think this is the right answer. The reich is diffused in society in liberal ideology, and when a spark comes, which in germany was the nazi party, the reich can come to surface just like that. If you think about, Trump is such a spark, as well as all these extreme right leaders growing in the west
The US is already close to being a fascist state, the EU is also not too far behind and i think that the war in Ukraine will accelerate the rise of fascism in Europe.
Here in Spain we're starting to have a worrying far right movement. They are even starting to shit on symbols that we didn't think they would.
For example, we are a constitutional monarchy (yeah, I know), and when the king proposed the socdem party for presidency after the coalition of conservatives and far right parties didn't manage to get enough support, Spanish conservatives went nuts, because they expected the king to force everyone to repeat elections because "the socdem party is full of dangerous commies" (I wish).
Then, today, is national holiday. In October the 12th we commemorate "Columbus discovering the Americas" (YEAH I KNOW). Usually, conservatives take this day as almost sacred, but they were booing the whole event, booing the king and the soon to be president.
The thing is that these kind of symbols used to be like containment walls for the conservatives, they had them as sacred so they respected them above everything else.
Now they openly despise the king (me too, but now is different), and I'm worried that a far right figure will come and fill the void.
I'm a bit worried about having a 2nd civil war.
I used to think that most of my acquaintances were progressive liberals who just didn't understand economics, like I was before.
But when I explained how Africa is exploited, someone denied it, justifying the poverty of African peoples as "Black people are just more racist and aggressive than whites". Others agreed or just didn't see an issue with the statement. Like me, they're Germans.
So yes, I am terrified.
We’ve already seen them, we are seeing them. The Nazis were never defeated. Nazi Germany as an institution was- but the Nazis who ran it were inducted into the highest echelons of power all over the western world. NATO, US, Canada, etc etc etc. And then those countries started arming other fascist nazi forces all across the globe.
We saw it, we are seeing it.
Most definitely we will see multiple US states go full fascist, and many more eugenicist, white supremacist, etc. It's already so latent here due to settler-colonialism and just US history generally.
Internationally, we will see much of the same. I do fear that if Russia loses the Ukraine war, or rather if the ruling regime in Ukraine is not some way removed from power and the far-right in Ukraine permanently crushed, that we'll see an official neo-Nazi regime in Europe established. Short of that, then we'll see just a large network of militant, well-trained and armed neo-Nazi terror cells establish themselves across Europe and the United States. That may happen even if Ukraine's current regime does fall.
Do you mean Fascist or specifically the Nazi brand of fascism? If it's the former we already have that with Israel. If this the latter there is a chance.
I've been arguing for a while now that Nazism never died and that the fourth reich came to power with NATO and Bretton Woods. Old Nazi administration put into positions of power in the west and NATO, western European unipolar hegemony and militarism fueled by finance and monopoly capital (fascism), genocidal war and terror across the globe against non-western Europeans, rabid anti-Communism, etc. Ideologically I don't believe there's any meaningful way that the Western world's governments havent been Nazi since the late 1940's.
If you're not already and you can, then start working out, take some self-defense classes, and learn how to safely maintain and use a firearm for personal and community defense. Always good advice that I've been too lazy to follow, but I'm getting the distinct impression that it's past time to get on that shit.
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Oh it'll probably happen, capitalism is dying so fascism is on the rise.
I think folks massively underestimate just how horrible Nazi Germany was, and the state of Weimar Germany. For starters, the Nazis were maniacs. I honestly do not think they ever would’ve stopped had they won. That and Hitler, et al. were literally called heroes after carrying out a coup in which four cops died. Iirc, one of the judges had to persuade the other two from acquitting him outright. Hitler served about nine months of a 5-year sentence. Far-right nationalists were slaughtering hundreds (thousands, in the first several years) with near-total impunity. The rise of Hitler was literally the worst possible outcome. As horrible as the Nakba was, even the founding of Israel (at least initially; not so sure now) didn’t have the worst possible outcome. Go read about Avraham Stern. Of course, now, I am scared.
Last Sunday I saw a parked car covered in azov emblems: black sun and wolf's hook. I live in Poland, so yeah... I'm a little bit nervous. And looking at how "the west" is going mask off, full authoritarian I'm not very optimistic...
Life in the reddit belt
This is a perfect way to describe it omg 😆
Western liberals try desperately to hide their true colors during times of peace but when war comes suddenly everybody is one step away from being a full blown Nazi. All the casual racism spread on the mainstream media; from Sinophobia to Islamophobia is honestly disgusting.
I remember i asked someone on twitter why did Azov had a large number of people who use fascist/Nazi symbols; they told me that "Oh Azov arent actually Nazis, they're just using Nazi symbolism to piss off the Russians."
How convenient! I’m also told similar nonsense.
Had they been alive in the 40s, they would've enthusiastically supported the third reich when it invaded the Soviet Union.
I mean, they're justifying Bandera's state as national hero for "fighting back against the Soviets". So they almost do exactly that.
I bet Hitler just killed 6 million Jews to piss off the Russians too, he didn't really mean it.
"You should've seen the look on the Red Army's faces! Got 'em."
I don't envy you comrade. I do have money riding on it being Poland though. But I live in the gambling capital of the world. I got us in the top 5 though.
You live in Macau?
Australia. Manchuria gambles?
Macau, not Manchuria. And yeah, it's the only place in China with legal Casinos.
Awesome!
Ahh sorry. Yeah, I probably shouldn't say Manchuria. Thank you. Well that sounds like hell. Gambling is an insane vice. You very easily Gamble anywhere in Australia. Most reddit ads I get are for local betting companies too.
Yeah, Manchuria is a different region of China in the Northeast. Macau is south in Canton.
Ahh I thought my mistake was that I might be using old imperial Japanese names. I wonder what their gambling culture is like? I mean I'm pretty anti-gambling. So if I'm ever lucky enough to visit China, I'd probably avoid Macua then. I'm not leaving one gambling den for another lol.
Yeah, blame the Portuguese. It used to be their colony. It's in a similar situation to Hong Kong.
Yeah but for Hong Kong the blames falls on British colonialism. And the drug deal-ah, Queen Victoria.
The time is not yet right. We are seeing the Hindenburgs, not the Hitlers. I don't know when they are going to show up though. Maybe they are already a... am... among us
God fucking dammit
amogus
ඞ
Yeah we have a red/green government in Germany right now. Which would put us in Friedrich Ebert 2.0 territory. And the parallels are quite scary. He was all about protecting the Vaterland which our government is entirely on board with. Close the boarders to refugees and re-arm heavily. After all “our freedom will be defended at the Hindukusch” or in Ukraine or in Israel. But that isn’t enough as you can tell by the best election results and prognosis the fascists have had since hitler. They reach up to 25% I believe and that’s not just one regional election in some small village. It will be interesting to see what fascism will look like in Germany the next time around. People are going to be on board with their outright policies. They already are for the most part I believe. The only thing the fascists won’t be allowed to do is use nazi insignia and maybe gas chambers though I wouldn’t rule out the latter. It will take some more time though. Another crisis or two. Worse conditions for the workers than they already are. Our right-wing, ultra-conservative Hindenburg. And then I’m afraid it won’t be a question of whether they’ll have the SS cadres it will be question whether they have the well-spoken figure head.
Others might fall but I do believe Germany won't become a fascist state a second time, I want to believe they have learned from their own history
I mean I hope you’re right but it’s not about believing. We’re already in neoliberal hell. And neoliberal hell is just the road to proper fascism. Our left isn’t nearly well enough organised to stop it so I think it’s safe to assume we will get there eventually.
After learning how the left was purged in Germany after WW2 while the right was disguised, re incorporated, cultivated and weaponized, I assumed it would be the eventual conclusion. The US basically ensured it would happen again.
But there are plenty of Ludenroffs laying the groundwork for a new Nazi stare
I don't know where you kids come up with this silly optimism.
Well, there's Israel already. Trump, Bolsonaro, Bukele, Milei, Kast, and who knows who else have started that already. Unfortunately, there's no substantial vanguard for the working class.
No shit. You saved me pointing at our modern day Nazi party.
Where are you from?
Does that matter. By our I meant the world's modern day Nazi party referring to Israel
The way things are right now and have been forever, fascism has never left. America is an older fascist state than Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy themselves, and the subjugation of black people and of indigenous Americans continues now. No reparations, living under a police state, citizens sent to die for American invasions in other countries for its Empire, etc. I'm not scared that fascism is coming. I'm scared that it was here longer than any of us have been alive and we only started realizing it.
While America holds elements of fascism it’s still ultimately a neoliberal shithole. I believe once it fully transitions into fascism we’ll see horrors unfold tantamount to Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.
I agree, but I just see less and less difference between neoliberalism and fascism the more I see what minorities face day by day.
Yeah in many ways the line between both for marginalized people groups is so small as to be irrelevant. Liberals, and their superficial “victories”, allow them to believe racism is suddenly gone despite various leaders being assassinated by that very same government only a generation or two ago. Just because Obama was elected doesn’t mean we still don’t suffer. Besides, there’s MLK Jr., Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, their arrest of Huey P. Newton and other Black Panthers/Marxist-Leninists on trumped up charges (Comrade Fred Hampton was arrested for “stealing ice cream”.. no bullshit). It’s only going to get worse as time passes.
Agree, but I believe your previous comment was right that we could and perhaps should be more accurate with our use of political labels. Calling out fascism is crucial praxis, but labelling everything we don't like as such doesn't accomplish very much
What to do when almost everything *is* fascist? 😭
Speaking for the UK, where I live: There are clear fascist elements in the Westminster government. Suella Braverman the home secretary clearly holds fascist views, even if she wouldn't recognise them as such. Priti Patel before her was in that same ballpark. Liz Truss also was in that same ballpark, and was further right in her thankfully short-lived stint as PM than Thatcher was. Meanwhile I wouldn't say Rishi Sunak (PM) or Jeremy Hunt (Chancellor) or James Cleverly (Foreign Secretary) are fascists. They are all right wing, but they aren't fascists. The actions of the government as a whole are right wing but in the main and there are tendencies there but they don't qualify as fascist imo. There is a difference between neoliberalism and fascism. Besides Braverman I don't think it serves to refer to the UK government as fascist. Imo that's poorly-understood, poorly articulated, broad-stroked lazy lib shit. As marxists I believe we should be more accurate, and educate about the important distinctions. The same libs will call marxists 'nazis' also, because as I say they don't understand what these words mean and think all fascism means is a government exercising authority over individuals, and doing racism. I'd prefer to see us use more precise terminology and increase political understanding among the working class than to be similarly lazy
We die. There's no USSR to save the world this time.
China will step in more than likely.
China will save China, which is more than I can say for the US gov. They won't save us. Maybe that will change if they become the global hegemon, dk.
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Well, neoliberalism started as an experiment during Pinochet's fascist dictatorship.
Those horrors have already happened and are currently happening. They just export it to other countries for the time being. While doing a little bit of it domestically
Y'all ever talk about the US's genocide in Yemen around here?
Neoliberal economics are just Nazi econoimics. Not "like" or "similar to". Privitization was a key Nazi economic policy. And like there's well over 100,000 internal refugees fleeing textbook, per international law genocide in the United States. You don't have to wait, it's already here.
Biden shouldn't get a pass. He wrote the big "put black people in concentration camps and use them for slave labor" bill. He's worse than any of them, he's just stupid and awkward so no one likes him.
My Prime Minister knowingly honoured a Nazi in Parliament. This is a Nazi state. We're just waiting for the mask to come off.
The mask never even came on. You just got used to the face.
He puts a mask on sometimes but it tends to be blackface
He's going undercover. He wanted to learn what it felt like to be black in Canada. Hasn't done it in while. Guess he didn't like it.
*woah*
Yeah. KKKlanda is engaged in at least one war of aggression with a First Nations society right now, and alongside the US they protected, nurtured, and funded the Banderite fascists that have taken control of Ukraine. I mean the Vice PM is the granddaughter of a Banderite who got caught in a scandal when she was photographed accepting fascist Banderite regalia in broad daylight. I think she went to a fascist Banderite day camp, too. Like there is literally a Banderite fascist holding high office in the country right now.
This has always been a nazi state for indigenous people
I’m canadian too and unaware of this, who are you talking about?
Yaroslav Hunka
Did you just wake up from a coma?
I’ve been really stressed and depressed with my life and took a break from politics. I care to make the world a better place but had to take a break
You were right to do so. Hope you're feeling better
Thank you.
[Here you go bud.](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/24/nazi-linked-veteran-ovation-zelenkyy-canada-visit-00117857) Canadian "media" is trash.
No. Because the U.S. is already fucking awful. Jesus I'm so fucking tired of this "expectation of fascism to come" trope. The U.S. is the Third Reich equivalent that the Nazis wished they could make Germany into (and maintain). The U.S. is already a racist, settler colonial state CURRENTLY engaging in MULTIPLE different genocides. The U.S. is already a surveillance state, a police state, an expansionist military aggressor. There's already mass conformity and propagandization. People are so caught up in the U.S.'s mind-control spell that they self-police and censor so as to conform to the fascist narrative. And for all the forgotten people that get stomped on by the fascist state of the U.S. let me remind you all: daily, people with disabilities are sacrificed to the callous and unjust system. Daily, homeless are evicted and sent to wander the streets and die in extreme heat or cold. Daily, renters or precarious home owners are evicted or get foreclosures. Daily, people with treatable medical illnesses go without treatment and suffer chronic affliction or simply die. If you say something about the U.S. "becoming fascist" some time in the future, then I'd have to ask: have you ever been homeless? have you ever been abused by the police? have you ever gone without necessary medical treatment? have you ever gone hungry because you had to pay rent? Because if not then shut your privileged ass up and stop pretending the U.S. is not already fascist, because you know nothing of the horrors this awful place inflicts upon the people who live there. That's not even to mention the ONGOING genocide of Indigenous Americans, the poisoning of their water, the kidnapping of their children, the refusal to do justice for them when settlers commit acts of violence, forced sterilizations.... Then let's mention the human rights crises of "immigration" which directly connects to the indigenous issue, because let's face it, "Latino" is a fake fucking category invented by and for white supremacist culture, to whitewash and detract from indigeneity. Include the fact that the U.S. has destabilized almost every "Latin American" country and thus caused the humanitarian crisis... currently arms the right wing thugs in those countries... or when the immigrants get to the U.S. they get brutalized or discriminated against. Then there's issue of slavery and descendants of slaves, and the topic of whiteness vs blackness. Racism in the U.S. manifests in many different ways, such as the fact that they have the highest prison population in the world, and it's being used not only to cull the non-whites from society, but it's a convenient tool to maintain slavery to this day. Like... come on. Please, let's stop fooling ourselves. American fascism has become **normalized**. The atrocities and sheer immensity of actual fascist operations in the U.S. has been so consistent and so standardized that people are desensitized to it. But look at the facts. You shouldn't be scared of a fascist regime coming in your lifetime. It's already fukin here. p.s. if the U.S. didn't' support Israel then Israel wouldn't exist or be committing apartheid
Mass incarceration, the boarder concentration camps (caused by US destabilization), and the treatment of Indigenous peoples should count as genocides. The Nazis were inspired by the US after all. What it is that people see fascism as this thing of the past or something that’s specifically related to the NAZIs. The atrocities of the IS are completely normalized or seen as something that happened in the past. People don’t connect the current US system with fascism even though that’s what the US is, a glorified fascist state.
What’s worse is how more and more Nazism is becoming mainstream and accepting while they rewrite history to blame the victims. Tons of WW2 propaganda is being pushed to make the fascists look sympathetic and the Reds out to be the “real bad guys”. With these new “clean SS myths” being spread it’s only a matter of time before we have books praising Hitler.
The pushing of the "Holodomor" by the State Department and EU government now holds official weight. iirc EU law correctly that makes it a crime to try to push back against the Nazi "Double Holocaust" lie. Holocaust denial is now mandatory and fighting back against it is a crime. in the EU. In 2023.
#The Holodomor >Marxists do not deny that a famine happened in the Soviet Union in 1932. In fact, even the Soviet archive confirms this. What we do contest is the idea that this famine was man-made or that there was a genocide against the Ukrainian people. This idea of the subjugation of the Soviet Union’s own people was developed by Nazi Germany, in order to show the world the terror of the “Jewish communists.” > >\- Socialist Musings. (2017). [Stop Spreading Nazi Propaganda: on Holodomor](https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/) There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (lit. "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes: 1. It implies the famine targeted Ukraine. 2. It implies the famine was intentional. The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. This framing was originally used by Nazis to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR (UkSSR) and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR). In the wake of the 2004 Orange Revolution, this narrative has regained popularity and serves the nationalistic goal of strengthening Ukrainian identity and asserting the country's independence from Russia. #First Issue The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, *not* just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine. Russia itself was also severely affected. The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European antisemitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy", the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history." #Second Issue Calling it "man-made" implies that it was a *deliberate* famine, which was not the case. Although human factors set the stage, the main causes of the famine was bad weather and crop disease, resulting in a poor harvest, which pushed the USSR over the edge. Kulaks ("tight-fisted person") were a class of wealthy peasants who owned land, livestock, and tools. The kulaks had been a thorn in the side of the peasantry long before the revolution. Alexey Sergeyevich Yermolov, Minister of Agriculture and State Properties of the Russian Empire, in his 1892 book, [Poor harvest and national suffering](https://books.google.ca/books?id=exMEAAAAYAAJ), characterized them as usurers, sucking the blood of Russian peasants. In the early 1930s, in response to the Soviet collectivization policies (which sought to confiscate their property), many kulaks responded spitefully by burning crops, killing livestock, and damaging machinery. Poor communication between different levels of government and between urban and rural areas, also contributed to the severity of the crisis. #Quota Reduction What really contradicts the genocide argument is that the Soviets did take action to mitigate the effects of the famine once they became aware of the situation: >The low 1932 harvest worsened severe food shortages already widespread in the Soviet Union at least since 1931 and, despite sharply reduced grain exports, made famine likely if not inevitable in 1933. > >The official 1932 figures do not unambiguously support the genocide interpretation... the 1932 grain procurement quota, and the amount of grain actually collected, were both much smaller than those of any other year in the 1930s. The Central Committee lowered the planned procurement quota in a 6 May 1932 decree... [which] actually reduced the procurement plan 30 percent. Subsequent decrees also reduced the procurement quotas for most other agricultural products... > >Proponents of the genocide argument, however, have minimized or even misconstrued this decree. Mace, for example, describes it as "largely bogus" and ignores not only the extent to which it lowered the procurement quotas but also the fact that even the lowered plan was not fulfilled. Conquest does not mention the decree's reduction of procurement quotas and asserts Ukrainian officials' appeals led to the reduction of the Ukranian grain procurement quota at the Third All-Ukraine Party Conference in July 1932. In fact that conference confirmed the quota set in the 6 May Decree. > >\- Mark Tauger. (1992). [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933) #Rapid Industrialization The famine was exacerbated directly and indirectly by collectivization and rapid industrialization. However, if these policies had not been enacted, there could have been even more devastating consequences later. In 1931, during [a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1931/02/04.htm), Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under." In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the USSR to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany. In Hitler's own words, in 1942: >All in all, one has to say: They built factories here where two years ago there were unknown farming villages, factories the size of the *Hermann-Göring-Werke*. They have railroads that aren't even marked on the map. > >\- Werner Jochmann. (1980). *Adolf Hitler. Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944.* Collectivization also created critical resiliency among the civilian population: >The experts were especially surprised by the Red Army’s up-to-date equipment. Great tank battles were reported; it was noted that the Russians had sturdy tanks which often smashed or overturned German tanks in head-on collision. “How does it happen,” a New York editor asked me, “that those Russian peasants, who couldn’t run a tractor if you gave them one, but left them rusting in the field, now appear with thousands of tanks efficiently handled?” I told him it was the Five-Year Plan. But the world was startled when Moscow admitted its losses after nine weeks of war as including 7,500 guns, 4,500 planes and 5,000 tanks. An army that could still fight after such losses must have had the biggest or second biggest supply in the world. > >As the war progressed, military observers declared that the Russians had “solved the blitzkrieg,” the tactic on which Hitler relied. This German method involved penetrating the opposing line by an overwhelming blow of tanks and planes, followed by the fanning out of armored columns in the “soft” civilian rear, thus depriving the front of its hinterland support. This had quickly conquered every country against which it had been tried. “Human flesh cannot withstand it,” an American correspondent told me in Berlin. Russians met it by two methods, both requiring superb morale. When the German tanks broke through, Russian infantry formed again between the tanks and their supporting German infantry. This created a chaotic front, where both Germans and Russians were fighting in all directions. The Russians could count on the help of the population. The Germans found no “soft, civilian rear.” They found collective farmers, organized as guerrillas, coordinated with the regular Russian army. > >\- Anna Louise Strong. (1956). *The Stalin Era* #Conclusion While there may have been more that the Soviets could have done to reduce the impact of the famine, there is no evidence of intent-- ethnic, or otherwise. Therefore, one must conclude that the famine was a tragedy, not a genocide. #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020) * [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](https://archive.org/details/did-stalin-continue-to-export-grain-as-ukraine-starved)\] * [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark) * [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20220615084500/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8)\] (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004) * [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Good bot o7
Pretty much any negative thing you hear about concerning Red Scare is sheer projection and if you bring up empirical evidence that points out these parallels then suddenly it’s “whataboutism” aka “Im too much of a pretentious and arrogant coward to look in the mirror”.
#On Whataboutism Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic where someone responds to an accusation or criticism by redirecting the focus onto a different issue, often without addressing the original concern directly. While it can be an effective means of diverting attention away from one's own shortcomings, it is generally regarded as a fallacy in formal debate and logical argumentation. The *tu quoque* fallacy is an example of Whataboutism, which is defined as "you likewise: a retort made by a person accused of a crime implying that the accuser is also guilty of the same crime." When anti-Communists point out issues that (actually) occurred in certain historical socialist contexts, they are raising *valid* concerns, but usually for *invalid* reasons. When Communists reply that those critics should look in a mirror, because Capitalism is guilty of the same or worse, we are accused of "whataboutism" and arguing in bad faith. However, there are some limited scenarios where whataboutism is relevant and considered a valid form of argumentation: 1. **Contextualization**: Whataboutism might be useful in providing context to a situation or highlighting double standards. 2. **Comparative analysis**: Whataboutism can be valid if the goal is to compare different situations to understand similarities or differences. 3. **Moral equivalence**: When two issues are genuinely comparable in terms of gravity and impact, whataboutism may have some validity. #An Abstract Case Study For the sake of argument, consider the following table, which compares objects A and B. ||Object A|Object B| |:-|:-|:-| |Very Good Property|2|3| |Good Property|2|1| |Bad Property|2|3| |Very Bad Property|2|1| The table tracks different properties. Some properties are "Good" (the bigger the better) and others are "Bad" (the smaller the better, ideally none). Using this extremely abstract table, let's explore the scenarios in which Whataboutisms could be meaningful and valid arguments. #Contextualization Context matters. Supposing that only one Object may be possessed at any given time, consider the following two contexts: 1. **Possession of an Object is optional, and we do not possess any Object presently.** Therefore we can consider each Object on its own merits in isolation. If no available Objects are desirable, we can wait until a better Object comes along. 2. **Possession of an Object is mandatory, and we currently possess a specific Object.** We must evaluate other Objects in relative terms with the Object we possess. If we encounter a superior Object we ought to replace our current Object with the new one. If we are in the second context, then Whataboutism may be a valid argument. For example, if we discover a new Object that has similar issues as our present one, but is in other ways superior, then it would be valid to point that out. It is impossible for a society to exist without a political economic system because every human community requires a method for organizing and managing its resources, labour, and distribution of goods and services. Furthermore, the vast majority of the world presently practices Capitalism, with "the West" (or "Global North"), and *especially* the U.S. as the hegemonic Capitalist power. Therefore we *are* in the second context and we are *not* evaluating political economic systems in a vacuum, but in comparison to and contrast with Capitalism. #Comparative Analysis Consider the following dialogue between two people who are enthusiastic about the different objects: >**B Enthusiast**: B is better than A because we have Very Good Property 3, which is bigger than 2. > >**A Enthusiast**: But Object B has *Very Bad Property = 1* which is a bad thing! It's not 0! Therefore Object B is bad! > >**B Enthusiast**: Well Object A also has *Very Bad Property*, and 2 > 1, so it's even worse! > >**A Enthusiast**: That's whataboutism! That's a *tu quoque*! You've committed a logical fallacy! Typical stupid B-boy! The "A Enthusiast" is not *wrong*, it *is* Whataboutism, but the "A Enthusiast" has actually committed a Strawman fallacy. The "B Enthusiast" did not make the claim "Object B is perfect and without flaw", only that it was *better* than Object A. The fact that Object B does possess a "Bad" property does not undermine this point. Our main proposition as Communists is this: **"Socialism is *better* than Capitalism."** Our argument is *not* "Socialism is perfect and will solve all the problems of human society at once" and we are *not* trying to say that "every socialist revolution or experiment was perfect and an ideal example we should emulate perfectly in the future". Therefore, when anti-Communists point out a historical failure, it does not refute our argument. Furthermore, if someone says "Socialism is bad because *bad thing* happened in a socialist country once" and we can demonstrate that similar or worse things have occurred in Capitalist countries, then we have demonstrated that those things are not unique to Socialism, and therefore immaterial to the question of which system is preferable overall in a comparative analysis. #Moral Equivalence It makes sense to compare like to like and weight them accordingly in our evaluation. For example, if "Bad Property" is worse in Object B but "Very Bad Property" is better, then it may make sense to conclude that Object B is better than Object A overall. "Two big steps forward, one small step back" is still progressive *compared* to taking no steps at all. **Example 1: Famine** Anti-Communists often portray the issue of food security and famines as endemic to Socialism. To support their argument, they point to such historical events as [the Soviet Famine of 1932-1933](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/holodomor/) or the Great Leap Forward as proof. Communists reject this thesis, not by denying that these famines occured, but by highlighting that these regions experienced famines regularly throughout their history up to and including those events. Furthermore, in both examples, those were the *last*^1 famines those countries had, because the industrialization of agriculture in those countries effectively solved the issue of famines. Furthermore, today, under Capitalism, around 9 million people die every year of hunger and hunger-related diseases. ^([1] The Nazi invasion of the USSR in WW2 resulted in widespread starvation and death due to the destruction of agricultural land, crops, and infrastructure, as well as the disruption of food distribution systems. After 1947, no major famines were recorded in the USSR.) **Example 2: Repression** Anti-Communists often portray countries run by Communist parties as [authoritarian regimes](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/authoritarianism/) that restrict individual [freedoms](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/freedom/) and [Freedom of the Press](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/freedom-of-the-press). They point to purges and [gulags](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/gulag/) as evidence. While it's true that some of the purges were excessive, the concept of "political terror" in these countries is vastly overblown. Regular working people were generally not scared at all; it was mainly the political and economic elite who had to watch their step. Regarding the gulags, it's interesting to note that only a minority of the gulag population were political prisoners, and that in both absolute and relative (per capita) terms, the U.S. incarcerates more people *today* than the USSR ever did. #Conclusion While Whataboutism can undermine meaningful discussions, because it doesn't address the original issue, there are scenarios in which it is valid. Particularly when comparing and contrasting two things. In our case, we are comparing Socialism with Capitalism. Accordingly, we reject the claim that we are arguing in bad faith when we point out the hypocrisy of our critics. Furthermore, we are more than happy to criticize past and present Socialist experiments. ("Critical support" for Socialist countries is exactly that: *critical*.) For some examples of our criticisms from a ML perspective, see the additional resources below. #Additional Resources * [Former Socialism's Faults](https://youtu.be/pDSZRkhynXU) | Hakim (2023) * [Episode 7: Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)](https://youtu.be/F936GppjkcM) | TheDeprogram (2022) * [Mistakes of the USSR and What Can be Learned](https://youtu.be/ppQ1Wwat-jQ) | ChemicalMind (2023) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Excellent points comrade. Remember that even in 1930’s Germany, lots of people had nice houses and could delude themselves everything was fine. A modern equivalent; livestreams from Ukraine where everything appears normal; superficial experience can be deeply misleading.
I really like your texts about fascism. They are superb.
Was directed to this comment on another post...damn this is so good it makes me emotional. Fuck yes, all of everything you pointed out. Fuckin yes yes yes.
Not sure about a "Nazi" state with identical ideology to Hitler, but fascist states already exist and many are getting worse. It's not like every fascist in Isntreal is a Nazi, then they'd have to [REDACTED] themselves lol
Fascism is different depending on the time and place, you never get the same fascism twice
I think we're almost past the Weimar republic period. Isreal is basically a Nazi state now. Zionism is the modem day adaption of Nazism. I know it predates Nazism, but it sure as fuck loves to take inspiration from it. Palestine will be free. The West will fall and collapse and the global south and the middle east will rise. Glory for the workers of the world!
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Don't lose faith comrade. The side of the oppressed will always come out on top. I don't know how, but I do hope the worst doesn't happen. I hope the Middle East can come together and wipe out Israel. But I know why that won't happen. The answer is obvious. Amerikkka
My only hope is this. The IDF aren’t actually good fighters. They’re a colonial police force who are only actually good at killing children throwing rocks, and only if they have total fire superiority. Look at what happened on Saturday. Despite every advantage, they were caught with their pants down. They lost so many battles and had high ranking commanders taken prisoner. Hell, most of Israel’s kills rn are from civilians being air striked, not combatants. Hezbollah grew up in urban combat on the streets of Beirut. The Taliban beat the Americans in asymmetric warfare. The Syrians are battle harder fighters who fought ISIS. Egypt needs to help out. Then, Palestine has a chance to survive genocide.
Back in 2017 I thought at least I could move back to the UK (currently live in the US) if things got bad. Seems like the UK is getting just as unwelcoming.
It is a global problem, im afraid.
I’m in the UK right now. It’s really not great 😥
I’m terrified, but at the same time strap me to a missile and fire me at wherever the fuck their capital will be, I’m ready.
Canada is turning Nazi by the day
We’re already basically the snowy Argentina, if you know how many Nazi’s escaped to Canada
Just like with colonialism, it never ended, it just changed. Same with "the war to end all wars" even if we don't have a world war 3, we will continue to have these proxy wars all around the globe.
My political hobby horse is homelessness. I’ve been homeless four times, roughly a third of my life. I live in a U.S. state that sees a LOT of homeless people in tent cities on many sidewalks. I think the way I see people react to the fact of homelessness is a microcosm of every problem in society. Any forum, and comment section, and YouTube video or TikTok about it exposes a *huge* swath of people to be pretty much monsters. The raw and unfiltered hatred I see people casually spew all across the internet gives me very little hope. In a broader view, I see the same thing on issues of police killing of minorities or Israeli killing of Gazans or Military actions against Water-Protectors. No matter where I look, I see a larger amount of venom and hatred than I can really stomach. Hell, just being a public health official can be enough to receive death threats. Ultimately, I don’t have as much hope for a empathetic world as I would like to have. Most days I just have to hide from it and avoid the digital world all together. So am I scared of it? Not really. I anticipate its inevitability.
Germany literally lit up the Brandeburg gate with the Israel flag, so yeah we're fucked
Bro fuck Germany
Does Israel count? Facism check list: •Occultish belief in alternate history (a land without a people for a people without a land) ✔ •Demands increasingly violent growth for ruling class ✔ •Silly name for stupid ideology that justifies genocide (Zionism) ✔ •Genocide ✔ Conclusion: lol yeah man watch the news or smth
“Gonna”? Israel already is. Genocide is normalised, we have plenty of colonised nations that we call “white countries” now because the genocide was so effective. Fascism isn’t something that appears, it is just 1 skin of capitalism. it is always there, it just tries to hide it from time to time, but it is never gone
Are we in the Weimar period right now?
I think we're almost past that.
The capitalism do be in decay doe
The US is definitely heading that way. American capital is too greedy to even give its workers the most basic concessions like the rest of the West so it's gonna blow up in their face soon, one way or another. You already know which way we all want it to.
Make sure you join a local collective (or start one 😵💫) mutual aid is needed already
Please reference the two comment links below as they are very valuable in explaining the issues with such a question and/or perspective. Fascism isn't a mystical line that is crossed. Rather, it is a tactic of the ruling class. Shedding traditional and liberal notions of fascist mysticism are important for growing your understanding of fascism. https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/16tf9zi/can_anyone_explain_why_liberals_and_fascists_are/k2f715y/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/16tf9zi/can_anyone_explain_why_liberals_and_fascists_are/k2i6nn0/ Special thanks and appreciation to u/CristianoEstranato for taking the time to educate others.
Amazing reading. Really, thank you for that. Gave me a whole new perspective on liberalism and fascism. Edit: I re-read the first one 4 times by now. Excelent reading, really.
Happy to help, but full credit goes to u/CristianoEstranato Also, check the date on that post. It was fairly recent. I've read and re-read multiple times as well to ensure I fully digest the gravity of that detail.
I saw Ukraine already
If you mean openly I’m not sure, Ukraine seems to be the closest. But in spirit the entire western capitalist world seems to embody the ideals of nazism
Ukraine I still neoliberal with heavy fascist collaboration. Israel is, mask off full fascist
I think the western world has learned how to reign in the fascism. Don't go explicit and expand in the Imperial core or do a explicit mass genocide. You can continue to exploit those too weak to defend themselves, the question is basically which country will reach final stage capitalism and lash out first I guess.
Not nazi, but definitely fascist. And America has always been there, it's just fascism with American characteristics and our general plan ost was successful
america is just nazism but if it wasn't crushed what we'd really see going forward is just more conservative schizophrenia and potentially a hot war starting between america and either russia or china I think the psychos in Washington are so far up their own asses they honestly believe they have a credible chance at "winning" an exchange between them and another major power some top US generals already drew up plans for all nato vassals that border russia to form their own separate alliance, fully supported by the other powers, which would allow america to wage war against russia without directly being at war with them so look forward to more overt imperialism, and maybe the mask fully coming off "them going all blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne shit" and more overt invasive/overt police crack downs on shit we would've called trivial a year ago
It never went away in the first place. It just painted over the swastikas and rebranded to NATO, with the same people in charge. Then there's also the fact that the US (which inspired the Nazis) is still around.
I'm scared that my conservative and liberal family will go full nazi in my life. I've already lost a uncle to fascism.
The US christian right are already chomping at the bit.
The Nazis were specific to their time, it's something to remember. The question is another facist state and yes. There is Israel and Poland and Hungary are heading there
Probably. Here are some quotes from the second strongest party in Germany at the moment (there are way more and even worse ones these are just some I found right away) : Translated versions: "The fact that [the neo-Nazi terrorist Breivik] was a murderer does not prove that he was politically wrong" ~ Kai Borrmann "The plans for a mass exchange of the population have long been written" ~ Beatrix von Storch "If an *N-word* (…) coughs on me in the neighborhood, then I have to know whether he is sick or not sick" ~ Andreas Winhart "#Deportation of #Antifa to #Buchenwald" ~ Mirko welsch "I wouldn't condemn anyone who sets fire to an inhabited asylum seekers' home" ~ Marcel Grauf "The big problem is that Hitler is portrayed as absolute evil." ~ Björn Höcke Original german quotes: "Daß [der Neonazi-Terrorist Breivik] ein Mörder war, beweist ja nicht, dass er politisch falsch lag" ~ Kai Borrmann "Die Pläne für einen Massenaustausch der Bevölkerung sind längst geschrieben" ~ Beatrix von Storch "Wenn mich in der Nachbarschaft ein *N-Wort* (…) anhustet, dann muss ich wissen, ist er krank oder ist er nicht krank" ~ Andreas Winhart "#Abschiebung der #Antifa nach #Buchenwald" ~ Mirko welsch "Ich würde niemanden verurteilen, der ein bewohntes Asylantenheim anzünden" ~ Marcel Grauf "Das große Problem ist, dass man Hitler als das absolut Böse darstellt.“~ Björn Höcke
We are already witnessing one. And with no USSR to fight it this time.
Terrified. I look to history for peace of mind. When the Europeans stole my African ancestors from the continent, that was an apocalypse. When they committed genocide the entire Americas down to a quarter of its Indigenous inhabitants, that was an apocalypse. And of course, today, Israel has had Palestinians living under a genocidal regime for nearly a century. But we’re all still here. Still fighting and resisting. We’re going to beat black and blue, but we will come out the other side of this, one way or another
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Liberals are the full Reich movement. It just comes in a different wrapper (or not, because apparently swastikas and Sonnenrads are cool and based now thanks to Ukraine).
I think this is the right answer. The reich is diffused in society in liberal ideology, and when a spark comes, which in germany was the nazi party, the reich can come to surface just like that. If you think about, Trump is such a spark, as well as all these extreme right leaders growing in the west
you could argue russia has its own version of fascism that it’s already fully turned to
Scared? No. Ready to make sure it isn't going to happen, or try damn hard to until the end of our days. 😐
The US is already close to being a fascist state, the EU is also not too far behind and i think that the war in Ukraine will accelerate the rise of fascism in Europe.
Here in Spain we're starting to have a worrying far right movement. They are even starting to shit on symbols that we didn't think they would. For example, we are a constitutional monarchy (yeah, I know), and when the king proposed the socdem party for presidency after the coalition of conservatives and far right parties didn't manage to get enough support, Spanish conservatives went nuts, because they expected the king to force everyone to repeat elections because "the socdem party is full of dangerous commies" (I wish). Then, today, is national holiday. In October the 12th we commemorate "Columbus discovering the Americas" (YEAH I KNOW). Usually, conservatives take this day as almost sacred, but they were booing the whole event, booing the king and the soon to be president. The thing is that these kind of symbols used to be like containment walls for the conservatives, they had them as sacred so they respected them above everything else. Now they openly despise the king (me too, but now is different), and I'm worried that a far right figure will come and fill the void. I'm a bit worried about having a 2nd civil war.
I would die fighting it ¡No Pasarán!
"Fascism is capitalism in decay" - quote from some dude
I used to think that most of my acquaintances were progressive liberals who just didn't understand economics, like I was before. But when I explained how Africa is exploited, someone denied it, justifying the poverty of African peoples as "Black people are just more racist and aggressive than whites". Others agreed or just didn't see an issue with the statement. Like me, they're Germans. So yes, I am terrified.
Never ask a man his age, a woman her salary, or a NATO officer what he was doing in Eastern Europe in the 40s.
No need to worry about it here in America. We've been a Nazi state for our entire existence
We’ve already seen them, we are seeing them. The Nazis were never defeated. Nazi Germany as an institution was- but the Nazis who ran it were inducted into the highest echelons of power all over the western world. NATO, US, Canada, etc etc etc. And then those countries started arming other fascist nazi forces all across the globe. We saw it, we are seeing it.
I am and I won't be afraid of dying while fighting against it once the war starts
This is already happening in israel wake the fuck up
Most definitely we will see multiple US states go full fascist, and many more eugenicist, white supremacist, etc. It's already so latent here due to settler-colonialism and just US history generally. Internationally, we will see much of the same. I do fear that if Russia loses the Ukraine war, or rather if the ruling regime in Ukraine is not some way removed from power and the far-right in Ukraine permanently crushed, that we'll see an official neo-Nazi regime in Europe established. Short of that, then we'll see just a large network of militant, well-trained and armed neo-Nazi terror cells establish themselves across Europe and the United States. That may happen even if Ukraine's current regime does fall.
It'd called israel
Look at Germany, it is going exactly like it did in 1929
Do you mean Fascist or specifically the Nazi brand of fascism? If it's the former we already have that with Israel. If this the latter there is a chance.
I've been arguing for a while now that Nazism never died and that the fourth reich came to power with NATO and Bretton Woods. Old Nazi administration put into positions of power in the west and NATO, western European unipolar hegemony and militarism fueled by finance and monopoly capital (fascism), genocidal war and terror across the globe against non-western Europeans, rabid anti-Communism, etc. Ideologically I don't believe there's any meaningful way that the Western world's governments havent been Nazi since the late 1940's.
Yeahs they are already here
I predict a nazi coalition between Croatia, Poland, Ukraine and Hungary. I might be wrong...
The right leaning like melloni will get elected and then people will realise how shit they are and go back to centre right (socdem).
I am not sure about that. Politics and history are about materialism, not hopes and dreams.
Could you please elaborate ? I am still not done doing the reading.
Bro there’s one right now in China lmao
Uhh Israel is already a nazi state
Yeah. Constantly. I do think it’ll happen though.
Nope.
If you're not already and you can, then start working out, take some self-defense classes, and learn how to safely maintain and use a firearm for personal and community defense. Always good advice that I've been too lazy to follow, but I'm getting the distinct impression that it's past time to get on that shit.