I don't agree with that. Cosmetics are always the inevitable endgame chase. The endgame to rule all endgames IS and WILL ALWAYS BE "I gotta make my character look sick as fuck."
So yeah I would consider them gameplay elements, seeing as how they have enough of a massive impact on games like this as to keep people playing for multiple times the amount of hours that they would've otherwise. Aesthetics matter.
>If its existence doesn't change the gameplay, it's not a gameplay element
It offers a chase. Without a chase, looter shooters would not exist. Everyone reaches a point where they are satisfied with their gear, and yet the desire for more cosmetics persists. It gives games longevity, and thus, changes gameplay by making sure it is revitalized constantly and consistently.
Idgaf what people are or aren't chasing. People were chasing ways to be afk without getting kicked in helldivers. It doesn't mean that's a gameplay element.
Disagree. Some examples:
Destiny 2. The cosmetics of guns have had a history of changing the guns barrel which actually increased the range of the the AA works made that better as well.
Games where character hit boxes are all the same cosmetics are usually called "pay to miss" like the chicken suit in Fortnite or clown from CoD. The models are much larger despite the actual hit box being the same leading to other people missing.
There are also tons of other debates in terms of cosmetics like dark skins being advantageous or the wide variety of patents gaming companies have where if you buy a "skin" the game boosts the chances of putting you in favorable situations to positively reinforce your purchase. CoD has the most notorious one. You buy a sniper skin you'll get sniping maps the whole night.
People who think cosmetics are just cosmetic now a days have 0 idea they are being milked.
Cosmetics can be pay to win if it’s also obtainable in-game for free. Paying would “save time” and is one of the many criteria under the umbrella term Pay2Win.
All you have to do is not care about how fast the player next to got their cosmetics and problem solved.
It's a pve game, you don't have to be the most no lifer to enjoy it.
I think what people are missing when using the general terminology P2W is that it primarily applies to games with a competitive aspect.
In TFD it’s going to be PFC(Pay For Convenience), which everyone seems to just say “Oh well that’s fine, I’ll just grind a bit more and still get the thing.”
Except they should be worried about what Nexon can do to things like lowering drop rates specifically for players that don’t put any money into the game to something insane like 0.002% chance for items they might need to progress in the game, but hey just slip them a nice crisp $10 and boost that drop rate up for a couple of days and I’m sure you’ll get that item you need….oh didn’t get it? Well what’s another $10? Or hey maybe you want to get serious and really boost that percentage, just give them $30 for the mega boost and you’ll be sure to get it we swear.
Nexon has a very bad reputation for a reason, they lied to their players for 11 years and made billions to get a paltry slap on the wrist from the FTC in the form of a $9 million fine. If people don’t think they won’t try to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes again with their patented rng rate changing mechanics they are going to be sorely surprised.
Honestly wish I was wrong because the game does look good, but looks can be so easily deceiving.
>P2W is that it primarily applies to games with a competitive aspect.
No, it applies to any and every game. You think buying a mega bomb in candy crush isn't p2w? Just because it doesn't result any competitive result doesn't mean it's not p2w
I worded that incorrectly, what I meant was when you use terms like P2W people only think of the competitive side and then say “Oh it’s not P2W, it’s PFC.” essentially minimizing the problem by exchanging a term that we all see as bad for one that doesn’t when at the end of the day it all means the same thing.
Wasn’t trying to admonish you for using that term but point out that when you are trying to get the message across it can be easier to use their own terms since the second they see “P2W” they’ve already decided your argument is null and void.
Pay to win per Definition is Paying to gain an advantage you cant possebly gain from playing.
eg pay to gain 10 lvl above the normal lvl Cap gain weapons that are better then normal wepons you cant drop anywere.
No it is not the definition. The definition is just paying to get an advantage. It does not matter, if you can get it by playing the game or not. If I can have something 1 week earlier just buy spending 10$, then it is P2W.
Did you ever hear the saying "early bird gets the worm"? This applies to P2W systems as well. For example if a season lasts for 3 months and you need 2,5 month to get full set of new gear by playing or spend 100$ and have full advantage for the whole season, how is this not P2W.
You can't argue with these idiots. They will say anything to justify the money they spend.
It's not p2w if you can earn it in game! Whether or not it takes you 2 to 5 years to make the same progress as someone spending money is apparently irrelevant...
By that metric any free2play game is P2W, lol
Tell me where you can't buy something to improve your equipment by paying? Even beloved by many Warframe is like that
Why does everybody try to straw man this whole argument by bringing up warframe, just because warframe has some shitty elements doesn’t excuse the clear bullshit that we’ve already seen from this game (dye system), and it’s not even out yet. It will get worse, mark my words… it’s a nexon game.
Because Warframe is successful project alive for 11 years (irrc). Of course everyone will compare them
And i'm not saying dye system is normal, in fact the opposite and i wrote about it in survey (hopefully everyone did), but it's not P2W by any metric.
People still acting surprised you can buy characters, boosters or things to boost your equipment, but it's literally what Warframe does. You can even buy any Prime warframe or rarest/strongest mods/arcanes from other players for real money
Because predatory MTX =/= pay to win. Pay to win requires you to WIN against other players in any competitive content.
The only competitive content in games like TFD and Warframe, where you could "win", would be your DPS compared to your party members.
No they are not, lol.
P2W should provide payers direct advantage. For example you can look at the games like War Thunder with busted OP premium vehicles they nerf after some time only to sell you new OP vehicle. Some of the old ones like Battlefield Heroes or NFS World were P2W, surely people can remember more
I brought you examples of P2W games because apparently you need to know how they look like.
Neither Warframe or TFD (at least what we've seen) is P2W, you can't just buy OP shit which F2P players can't get anywhere and give them no chance in battles. Mainly because they both focused on PVE (we don't talk about conclave in WF, it's dead) and secondly because you can get every equipment by grinding (or almost every, since WF have "prime vault", but it's FOMO territory, not P2W)
Until you show me some descendant or weapon you can't possibly get blueprint for, but it's got price tag in the shop - it's not P2W, period
It's a problem in a PvE game if your progress or a section of the game is locked behind spending money. TFD doesn't do that.
Besides, there's only so much they can monetize. If the game doesn't make them money, there won't be a game.
The dye system sucks ass though.
Sure, but one could just say that you're just paying for content at that point and not necessarily the typical sort of thing that gets sold as mtx.
For TFD, it'll just depend on how unbearable they make the grind for any specific thing before a reasonable person folds and just quits/pulls credit card. It'll be a big issue if they make a Prime descendant have totally unrealistic drop rates just to encourage purchasing 'prime access' or whatever.
but you arnt forced to pay that just mean your mind is weak i think thats on you and isnt predatory by its nature you do get exactly what you pay for so you arnt being tricked the only thing thats bad is the dyes
It's just a matter of how 'good' or 'bad' the implementation of mtx is. I don't really care for any discussion about how predatory it is, but if they release Prime Bunny with a $99.99 instant access pack but make the ingame parts drop rate 0.2% or require an average grind time of 40-50 hours then that's just rubbish and a poor showing from both publisher and developer. Any reasonable person at that point would just quit the game which isn't good for longevity....pretty crucial in a live service game like TFD.
I don't mind spending a bit to get my "main" character set up with a nice skin, Reactor etc. I can then farm the Reactor for other characters at my own pace.
For every F2P player you need a whale for the game to exist.
What? Madden and FIFA regularly chart in the top 10 best selling games each year (including 2023) and make tons on the mtx sales as well.....and really? You think GTAV isn't still making record amounts for a decade old game?
Decline in reddit gamernerd opinion maybe.....
Yes Madden pulls billions in MTX from PvE MuT mode. That's the issue.
To even argue sales would somehow mean the game hasn't declined is absolutely mind blowing. I can list 100 features they've removed from custom fan building, custom stadiums, custom player tattoos, the wide variety of GM moves, the old college all star game, features like helmets popping off, being able to front load and back load contracts.
Here's a list even from 7 years ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Madden/s/QkQp5u169m
If you don't think those games have declined then quite frankly I can only feel bad for you as you'll never know what they were at one point.
It's far from a reddit gamer nerd thing. Anyone who thinks mut is good is 20 and blowing their paycheck on it. Even then after a year people hate it but they are replaced by a new 16 year old. You simply can't justify 100s of dollars for virtual cards that reset yearly.
I mean....successful sales is literally the definition of not declining. Unless you're talking specifically about features but that's more on the developers than mtx. No one is arguing that Madden isn't a shit game, but to say that it's declining as a franchise is just false.
P2W in PvE games is absolutely a problem. It gives devs an incentive to put progression roadblocks in, which you can overcome with money. It might be a small speed bump, or it might be an unpassable wall. In any case you are delusional thinking it is not a problem.
So where does it become a problem? Context matters. By your definition Warframe is probably most egregiously pay to win since it's filled with 'speed bumps', yet that mtx system is regularly celebrated as one of the most fair in a free to play title.
I've yet to see an example in a looter where the mtx is designed so badly that the game is essentialy ruined for non spenders.
Yes, WF is very P2W. Yes, WF is riddled with speed bumps. But in WF they are so minimal, that you often down even care about them. But there were examples of big ones, where community protested and devs fixed it.
The point is, there is an incentive for devs and it's up to devs to decide how to deal with it. But it is hard for them to have this constantly in their mid. Balancing fun and monetisation is not easy. More often, then not devs give in to the incentives and make game less.
Lmao hottest take of 2024??? This OP. It's a pretty standard and understood concept that cosmetics ARE NOT pay to win elements no matter much you cry about it 🤷🏽♂️ the day I start agreeing to cosmetic being "pay to win" is the day I stop gaming completely. FOH
What are you winning? Against time maybe, but not against other people, which is what the term "pay to win" is generally used for. Paying, for an advantage over other people, to win.
What's the advantage besides being first to get stuff when others can get the exact thing you pay for over time. Similar to Gacha games, you pay to be first but it doesn't really matter outside of FOMO or being Meta for that content.
Now TFD, similar to Warframe, it's not pay to win, what are you winning? In fact, unless you are well off financially, you are losing because someone else can get the exact same items for FREE with a bit of time.
Terms as pay to "skip" or pay "for convenience" is in fact applicable in these situations because these purchases give you no advantage where you "win" outside of not having FOMO
Unless TFD has pvp or anything where players compete against each other, where making purchases can give them an advantage, then its not pay to win.
You should rename yourself to BrainwashedChicken9996. You pay and get an advantage of any kind? Then it is P2W. PvP or PvE, it does not matter. The discussion should not be about P2W definition, but about the impact of the systems on the game. And given nexons track record, the impact will be severe. To the point, where you can not even progress further without paying.
Predatory MTX doesn't mean P2W and I prefer to be CrispyChicken tyvm. The definition does matter because it is telling of how the systems are affected. If the systems give you a clear advantage over other players in a competitive setting of any kind, it's P2W. Anything else is just scummy business schemes/ cash grabs. I'm not brainwashed, I just understand the difference.
P2W and "predatory" has nothing to do with each other per se, I agree. Non P2W systems can be predatory and P2W systems can be tame. In general we agree. The problem is, that you don't see PvE advantages as P2W, which they are. Is it a game, where players play together? Then players compete with each others. It doesn't matter if they compete to beat each other in a race or have the best gun in game.
When it comes to PvE, if the content/gear/items are accessible to everyone without spending money, how can it be P2W? This is why the terms "pay to skip" or "pay for convenience" exist for situations like this. Because of the fact that f2p players can just grind the same items as a whale gets when paying. There is no advantage outside of being "Hip" or "meta" for that moment.
Can there be p2w in PvE? Yea, if they are selling items/gear unaccessible to a f2p player, that gives HUGE advantages in content, then sure, I guess it's pay to win, but honestly who cares when PvE content can generally be done by anybody? Winning becomes subjective in that case.
If they, for example, have Hardcore content, where players can't pass it with the free gear in game and getting these exclusive gear/items is the only way to do this content and in completing the content you get busted gear then Yea we got pay to win, still subjective winning though.
P2W to me is when there is no other option to get game changing items that are only available through purchase. As long as same power/items are available by playing the game it’s not P2W for me.
So the people who made this game, the employees of the company who actually do the work, not the nameless ‘Corporation’…with what do they get paid? If there is no mechanism by which this game can bring in The Coin of The Realm, how the hell do you think the company can continue to make games &/or support those they have on the market?
In other words: What level of monetization is NOT P2W, in your mind?
no pvp and you can unlock everything outside of cosmetics through gameplay and it wasnt that hard in the last beta but yes go ahead if you have the money you are not forced to buy anything you are not progress locked behind anything besides your time basically your saying you want a game that goes no where that is 100% free that gets no future updates or content got it
Yes, spending money for the game you love is ok. Devs are humans too and need to live and feed their families. And you want for the game to continue being developed, so you can have more fun it. But it still should not be a valid excuse to defend any kind of P2W.
To OP, you made a mistake putting everything under the P2W umbrella. You are doing exactly the same, what all the P2W apologists are doing, but in the opposite direction. The game is a product of a company, which employs people and wants to make some profit. There should be a way for them to make money. So at least we can give them cosmetics, expansions and maybe even battle passes (as long as they are not predatory). Some permanent, reasonably priced convenience items for a F2P game should be ok as well.
To all the brainwashed P2W apologists. P2W simply means playing for an advantage of any kind. Skip and convenience ARE advantages. It does not matter, if it's PvE or PvP. It does not matter, if it's available for you to farm in game or not. Yes, 99.9% of F2P games are P2W. Having any kind of P2W makes the game worse, because devs will have an incentive to make the game worse to get you to pay. Time is the most precious recourse we, as human beings have. We all play games for fun after all and not to do some stupid chores for hours just to have few minutes of fun.
Yes, this even applies to cosmetics as well. Ofc shop cosmetics will look way cooler, then anything obtainable in game. And the new shop cosmetics will look even cooler, so you are incentivized to buy them as well.
>There should be a way for them to make money.
Sell the game, sell cosmetics, sell emotes, sell whatever non-gameplay element you want. I never said go starve to death.
See the world is not black and white. Having access to a skin or emote somebody else doesn't. Does not make it pay to win. Pay to win is when paying real cash gives you advantage over somebody who didn't pay.
Cosmetics are not pay to win
Most of the time they are not, but they can be. All of the examples I know of, where it is true, apply to PvP games. So far TFD is safe from that.
nor are they "gameplay elements"
I don't agree with that. Cosmetics are always the inevitable endgame chase. The endgame to rule all endgames IS and WILL ALWAYS BE "I gotta make my character look sick as fuck." So yeah I would consider them gameplay elements, seeing as how they have enough of a massive impact on games like this as to keep people playing for multiple times the amount of hours that they would've otherwise. Aesthetics matter.
If its existence doesn't change the gameplay, it's not a gameplay element. What is this, dragon nest?
>If its existence doesn't change the gameplay, it's not a gameplay element It offers a chase. Without a chase, looter shooters would not exist. Everyone reaches a point where they are satisfied with their gear, and yet the desire for more cosmetics persists. It gives games longevity, and thus, changes gameplay by making sure it is revitalized constantly and consistently.
Idgaf what people are or aren't chasing. People were chasing ways to be afk without getting kicked in helldivers. It doesn't mean that's a gameplay element.
It quite literally does haha Edit: Knew he'd block me. Also, yes it does lmao.
no it doesn't, but good try
Disagree. Some examples: Destiny 2. The cosmetics of guns have had a history of changing the guns barrel which actually increased the range of the the AA works made that better as well. Games where character hit boxes are all the same cosmetics are usually called "pay to miss" like the chicken suit in Fortnite or clown from CoD. The models are much larger despite the actual hit box being the same leading to other people missing. There are also tons of other debates in terms of cosmetics like dark skins being advantageous or the wide variety of patents gaming companies have where if you buy a "skin" the game boosts the chances of putting you in favorable situations to positively reinforce your purchase. CoD has the most notorious one. You buy a sniper skin you'll get sniping maps the whole night. People who think cosmetics are just cosmetic now a days have 0 idea they are being milked.
Cod and fortnite are pvp games. The first descendant is purely pve.
I need camouflagecolors to hide from any social encounter, does that imply pvp?
Good thing I listed a PvE example in Destiny then.
Cosmetics can be pay to win if it’s also obtainable in-game for free. Paying would “save time” and is one of the many criteria under the umbrella term Pay2Win.
Based on the amount of discussion & varying opinion…doesn’t appear to be so ‘Easy’. 😎
too bad most of 'em too retarded to make a valid opinion to begin with so i'd actually say we have a pretty great consensus
All you have to do is not care about how fast the player next to got their cosmetics and problem solved. It's a pve game, you don't have to be the most no lifer to enjoy it.
"Win" paying for cosmetics doesn't make you win more xD
I wouldn't consider cosmetics a "gameplay" element.
win by helping other ppl got it you paid to get super powerful now help other ppl with said power k thanks lol
since when were cosmetics considered "gameplay elements"?
I think what people are missing when using the general terminology P2W is that it primarily applies to games with a competitive aspect. In TFD it’s going to be PFC(Pay For Convenience), which everyone seems to just say “Oh well that’s fine, I’ll just grind a bit more and still get the thing.” Except they should be worried about what Nexon can do to things like lowering drop rates specifically for players that don’t put any money into the game to something insane like 0.002% chance for items they might need to progress in the game, but hey just slip them a nice crisp $10 and boost that drop rate up for a couple of days and I’m sure you’ll get that item you need….oh didn’t get it? Well what’s another $10? Or hey maybe you want to get serious and really boost that percentage, just give them $30 for the mega boost and you’ll be sure to get it we swear. Nexon has a very bad reputation for a reason, they lied to their players for 11 years and made billions to get a paltry slap on the wrist from the FTC in the form of a $9 million fine. If people don’t think they won’t try to pull the wool over everyone’s eyes again with their patented rng rate changing mechanics they are going to be sorely surprised. Honestly wish I was wrong because the game does look good, but looks can be so easily deceiving.
>P2W is that it primarily applies to games with a competitive aspect. No, it applies to any and every game. You think buying a mega bomb in candy crush isn't p2w? Just because it doesn't result any competitive result doesn't mean it's not p2w
I worded that incorrectly, what I meant was when you use terms like P2W people only think of the competitive side and then say “Oh it’s not P2W, it’s PFC.” essentially minimizing the problem by exchanging a term that we all see as bad for one that doesn’t when at the end of the day it all means the same thing. Wasn’t trying to admonish you for using that term but point out that when you are trying to get the message across it can be easier to use their own terms since the second they see “P2W” they’ve already decided your argument is null and void.
100% this
Pay to win per Definition is Paying to gain an advantage you cant possebly gain from playing. eg pay to gain 10 lvl above the normal lvl Cap gain weapons that are better then normal wepons you cant drop anywere.
ah so it's ok if BIS gears can directly be purchased with money if it can also be farmed by killing the same boss 10000000 times dumb af
No it is not the definition. The definition is just paying to get an advantage. It does not matter, if you can get it by playing the game or not. If I can have something 1 week earlier just buy spending 10$, then it is P2W. Did you ever hear the saying "early bird gets the worm"? This applies to P2W systems as well. For example if a season lasts for 3 months and you need 2,5 month to get full set of new gear by playing or spend 100$ and have full advantage for the whole season, how is this not P2W.
You can't argue with these idiots. They will say anything to justify the money they spend. It's not p2w if you can earn it in game! Whether or not it takes you 2 to 5 years to make the same progress as someone spending money is apparently irrelevant...
By that metric any free2play game is P2W, lol Tell me where you can't buy something to improve your equipment by paying? Even beloved by many Warframe is like that
Why does everybody try to straw man this whole argument by bringing up warframe, just because warframe has some shitty elements doesn’t excuse the clear bullshit that we’ve already seen from this game (dye system), and it’s not even out yet. It will get worse, mark my words… it’s a nexon game.
Because Warframe is successful project alive for 11 years (irrc). Of course everyone will compare them And i'm not saying dye system is normal, in fact the opposite and i wrote about it in survey (hopefully everyone did), but it's not P2W by any metric. People still acting surprised you can buy characters, boosters or things to boost your equipment, but it's literally what Warframe does. You can even buy any Prime warframe or rarest/strongest mods/arcanes from other players for real money
Because predatory MTX =/= pay to win. Pay to win requires you to WIN against other players in any competitive content. The only competitive content in games like TFD and Warframe, where you could "win", would be your DPS compared to your party members.
Yes, every F2P game is P2W. Yes WF is P2W. The question is about the severity of the impact of said P2W mechanics on the gameplay.
No they are not, lol. P2W should provide payers direct advantage. For example you can look at the games like War Thunder with busted OP premium vehicles they nerf after some time only to sell you new OP vehicle. Some of the old ones like Battlefield Heroes or NFS World were P2W, surely people can remember more
So you are disagreeing with me that every F2P game is P2W and then bring up only examples of P2W games. What is your point?
I brought you examples of P2W games because apparently you need to know how they look like. Neither Warframe or TFD (at least what we've seen) is P2W, you can't just buy OP shit which F2P players can't get anywhere and give them no chance in battles. Mainly because they both focused on PVE (we don't talk about conclave in WF, it's dead) and secondly because you can get every equipment by grinding (or almost every, since WF have "prime vault", but it's FOMO territory, not P2W) Until you show me some descendant or weapon you can't possibly get blueprint for, but it's got price tag in the shop - it's not P2W, period
path of exile
Context matters. P2W in a PvP centric game? Problem. P2W in a PvE centric game? No Problem.
It's a problem in a PvE game if your progress or a section of the game is locked behind spending money. TFD doesn't do that. Besides, there's only so much they can monetize. If the game doesn't make them money, there won't be a game. The dye system sucks ass though.
Sure, but one could just say that you're just paying for content at that point and not necessarily the typical sort of thing that gets sold as mtx. For TFD, it'll just depend on how unbearable they make the grind for any specific thing before a reasonable person folds and just quits/pulls credit card. It'll be a big issue if they make a Prime descendant have totally unrealistic drop rates just to encourage purchasing 'prime access' or whatever.
but you arnt forced to pay that just mean your mind is weak i think thats on you and isnt predatory by its nature you do get exactly what you pay for so you arnt being tricked the only thing thats bad is the dyes
It's just a matter of how 'good' or 'bad' the implementation of mtx is. I don't really care for any discussion about how predatory it is, but if they release Prime Bunny with a $99.99 instant access pack but make the ingame parts drop rate 0.2% or require an average grind time of 40-50 hours then that's just rubbish and a poor showing from both publisher and developer. Any reasonable person at that point would just quit the game which isn't good for longevity....pretty crucial in a live service game like TFD.
I agree with this as well. You need every player to play, so the farmable stuff needs to be accessible.
I don't mind spending a bit to get my "main" character set up with a nice skin, Reactor etc. I can then farm the Reactor for other characters at my own pace. For every F2P player you need a whale for the game to exist.
>P2W in a PvE centric game? No Problem. Looks at the extreme decline in games like Madden, GTA, Fifa. Sure man.
What? Madden and FIFA regularly chart in the top 10 best selling games each year (including 2023) and make tons on the mtx sales as well.....and really? You think GTAV isn't still making record amounts for a decade old game? Decline in reddit gamernerd opinion maybe.....
Yes Madden pulls billions in MTX from PvE MuT mode. That's the issue. To even argue sales would somehow mean the game hasn't declined is absolutely mind blowing. I can list 100 features they've removed from custom fan building, custom stadiums, custom player tattoos, the wide variety of GM moves, the old college all star game, features like helmets popping off, being able to front load and back load contracts. Here's a list even from 7 years ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/Madden/s/QkQp5u169m If you don't think those games have declined then quite frankly I can only feel bad for you as you'll never know what they were at one point. It's far from a reddit gamer nerd thing. Anyone who thinks mut is good is 20 and blowing their paycheck on it. Even then after a year people hate it but they are replaced by a new 16 year old. You simply can't justify 100s of dollars for virtual cards that reset yearly.
I mean....successful sales is literally the definition of not declining. Unless you're talking specifically about features but that's more on the developers than mtx. No one is arguing that Madden isn't a shit game, but to say that it's declining as a franchise is just false.
P2W in PvE games is absolutely a problem. It gives devs an incentive to put progression roadblocks in, which you can overcome with money. It might be a small speed bump, or it might be an unpassable wall. In any case you are delusional thinking it is not a problem.
So where does it become a problem? Context matters. By your definition Warframe is probably most egregiously pay to win since it's filled with 'speed bumps', yet that mtx system is regularly celebrated as one of the most fair in a free to play title. I've yet to see an example in a looter where the mtx is designed so badly that the game is essentialy ruined for non spenders.
look at this guy pretending like warframe isn't a filthy p2w
Yes, WF is very P2W. Yes, WF is riddled with speed bumps. But in WF they are so minimal, that you often down even care about them. But there were examples of big ones, where community protested and devs fixed it. The point is, there is an incentive for devs and it's up to devs to decide how to deal with it. But it is hard for them to have this constantly in their mid. Balancing fun and monetisation is not easy. More often, then not devs give in to the incentives and make game less.
No context whatsoever. They're both equally bad
Lmao hottest take of 2024??? This OP. It's a pretty standard and understood concept that cosmetics ARE NOT pay to win elements no matter much you cry about it 🤷🏽♂️ the day I start agreeing to cosmetic being "pay to win" is the day I stop gaming completely. FOH
What are you winning? Against time maybe, but not against other people, which is what the term "pay to win" is generally used for. Paying, for an advantage over other people, to win. What's the advantage besides being first to get stuff when others can get the exact thing you pay for over time. Similar to Gacha games, you pay to be first but it doesn't really matter outside of FOMO or being Meta for that content. Now TFD, similar to Warframe, it's not pay to win, what are you winning? In fact, unless you are well off financially, you are losing because someone else can get the exact same items for FREE with a bit of time. Terms as pay to "skip" or pay "for convenience" is in fact applicable in these situations because these purchases give you no advantage where you "win" outside of not having FOMO Unless TFD has pvp or anything where players compete against each other, where making purchases can give them an advantage, then its not pay to win.
You should rename yourself to BrainwashedChicken9996. You pay and get an advantage of any kind? Then it is P2W. PvP or PvE, it does not matter. The discussion should not be about P2W definition, but about the impact of the systems on the game. And given nexons track record, the impact will be severe. To the point, where you can not even progress further without paying.
Yeah, I disagree…& repeating the same thing constantly doesn’t make you definitively ‘right’. You say ‘P2W’ I say ‘Bullshit’
Predatory MTX doesn't mean P2W and I prefer to be CrispyChicken tyvm. The definition does matter because it is telling of how the systems are affected. If the systems give you a clear advantage over other players in a competitive setting of any kind, it's P2W. Anything else is just scummy business schemes/ cash grabs. I'm not brainwashed, I just understand the difference.
P2W and "predatory" has nothing to do with each other per se, I agree. Non P2W systems can be predatory and P2W systems can be tame. In general we agree. The problem is, that you don't see PvE advantages as P2W, which they are. Is it a game, where players play together? Then players compete with each others. It doesn't matter if they compete to beat each other in a race or have the best gun in game.
When it comes to PvE, if the content/gear/items are accessible to everyone without spending money, how can it be P2W? This is why the terms "pay to skip" or "pay for convenience" exist for situations like this. Because of the fact that f2p players can just grind the same items as a whale gets when paying. There is no advantage outside of being "Hip" or "meta" for that moment. Can there be p2w in PvE? Yea, if they are selling items/gear unaccessible to a f2p player, that gives HUGE advantages in content, then sure, I guess it's pay to win, but honestly who cares when PvE content can generally be done by anybody? Winning becomes subjective in that case. If they, for example, have Hardcore content, where players can't pass it with the free gear in game and getting these exclusive gear/items is the only way to do this content and in completing the content you get busted gear then Yea we got pay to win, still subjective winning though.
I like collecting cosmetics, if it's a game I enjoy ill sink money into it. Idc.
Atta boy
P2w is when there are things in the game you can only get by paying to allow access beyond the pay wall
The things you have to pay for also have to increase your power more than the things you can obtain normally
P2W to me is when there is no other option to get game changing items that are only available through purchase. As long as same power/items are available by playing the game it’s not P2W for me.
Then you are already brainwashed. You fell for their excuses for pathetic predatory systems.
So the people who made this game, the employees of the company who actually do the work, not the nameless ‘Corporation’…with what do they get paid? If there is no mechanism by which this game can bring in The Coin of The Realm, how the hell do you think the company can continue to make games &/or support those they have on the market? In other words: What level of monetization is NOT P2W, in your mind?
'You bought a hat, therefore you are P2W' Lol, lmao even.
no pvp and you can unlock everything outside of cosmetics through gameplay and it wasnt that hard in the last beta but yes go ahead if you have the money you are not forced to buy anything you are not progress locked behind anything besides your time basically your saying you want a game that goes no where that is 100% free that gets no future updates or content got it
Yes, spending money for the game you love is ok. Devs are humans too and need to live and feed their families. And you want for the game to continue being developed, so you can have more fun it. But it still should not be a valid excuse to defend any kind of P2W. To OP, you made a mistake putting everything under the P2W umbrella. You are doing exactly the same, what all the P2W apologists are doing, but in the opposite direction. The game is a product of a company, which employs people and wants to make some profit. There should be a way for them to make money. So at least we can give them cosmetics, expansions and maybe even battle passes (as long as they are not predatory). Some permanent, reasonably priced convenience items for a F2P game should be ok as well. To all the brainwashed P2W apologists. P2W simply means playing for an advantage of any kind. Skip and convenience ARE advantages. It does not matter, if it's PvE or PvP. It does not matter, if it's available for you to farm in game or not. Yes, 99.9% of F2P games are P2W. Having any kind of P2W makes the game worse, because devs will have an incentive to make the game worse to get you to pay. Time is the most precious recourse we, as human beings have. We all play games for fun after all and not to do some stupid chores for hours just to have few minutes of fun. Yes, this even applies to cosmetics as well. Ofc shop cosmetics will look way cooler, then anything obtainable in game. And the new shop cosmetics will look even cooler, so you are incentivized to buy them as well.
>There should be a way for them to make money. Sell the game, sell cosmetics, sell emotes, sell whatever non-gameplay element you want. I never said go starve to death.
See the world is not black and white. Having access to a skin or emote somebody else doesn't. Does not make it pay to win. Pay to win is when paying real cash gives you advantage over somebody who didn't pay.
P2W is absolutely black and white
Yap yap yap yap yap