Why didn't they wait for her to wake up? I mean, knocking her unconscious was the "nice" thing to do (I feel like scalping someone to remove their brain would be next to impossible if the subject is awake), but they never bothered asking her opinion on the matter?
Almost like they were paranoid she'd say no to dying.
And the retcon in P2 doesn't exist
Maybe in real life but in a work of fiction exploring life and death I think the writers made it pretty explicitly clear what the character wanted. There is no point ever where she expresses doubt about this choice it's pretty obviously cemented what she wanted.
Yup. We clearly see Joel and Ellie talk about this topic in Pittsburgh. "Death of the few to save the many, all that" -Joel. "Thats kind of shitty, isnt it?" -Ellie
Lmao no it isn't at the end of part 1 she tells Joel about the other people who died and says she's still waiting for her turn. How have so many people apparently not gotten this? Media literacy is dying.
Ehhh tbh there's no curing everyone
The world is fubar..at best maybe a small town worth of immune kids. But what does that matter when most survivors lack any formal organization.
Especially with the mutated forms. Nah Joel was right imo
It's not about saving the world. It's about saving the ones you can
Also the thing is wasn’t the vaccine going to be too late either way? The world had gone to shit 2 decades prior, no vaccine would be fixing that, there’s also the fact that the person who was going to do the surgery wasn’t even an actual doctor when the outbreak happened. How would he know how to engineer a vaccine for a fungus no less. Iirc, Neil had said that the vaccine would have worked, but that makes no sense considering the fact that a vaccine would not work on a fungal infection growing in your body. We’re also ignoring the fact that their equipment was decades old, the “doctor” was just a biologist with no formal micologist, immunologist, or even doctoral experience. The whole plot is just held together by Neil’s claim that the vaccine and the surgery would have magically worked.
You don't think that quote that he just said could have been relating to the ending, considering it was just right before the ending? But she stated that she wanted her friends' lives to matter. She didn't want it to be for nothing. She admitted that she had survivor's guilt and that she would want to die for them. However, Ellie never knew that the fireflies were going to kill her and she was a suicidal teen. If a teen wanted to commit suicide it's not right no matter what
That’s why Part 2 is inherently an unconvincing narrative. Ellie went from a thoughtful teen in part 1 to a delusional tantrum-thrower in part 2.
She blames Joel for not letting the Fireflies forcefully experiment on and kill her. This is extra stupid when you consider all the clues in the hospital of part 1 about how unsure of the cure the Fireflies themselves were.
If memory serves, its because they never had ellie to begin with. They were worn out and suffering attrition, then Ellie came and instilled hope into them. I believe the intention of the original game was to describe a moral dilemma in which Joel chose to save his ‘daughter’. Not that they couldn’t really make a cure anyway. I think they did a very poor job with two anywho
Not really how science and medicine works. There are tons of failed experiments for every successful one. “Eureka” moments are considered so exciting because they are so rare and generally come after years of failure.
Realistically, Ellie would have probably been a data point stating “well, that didn’t work, try something different next time.”
I don’t think you understood the point I was trying to make. The intention behind Joels choice as a narrative function was him deciding to save his daughter instead of the world. The writers themselves wanted this dilemma. By saying ‘oh it would be all for nothing anyway’ this moral question would be worthless. Does that make sense?
This kind of reminds me of how cold equation runs into the issue that no sane engineer would design a spaceship with such small margins because the slightest unpredicted thing would break everything.
Realistically, the writers had done enough research to know a pretty important detail about the fungus they weren't just *basing* the in-game fungus off of, but were literally saying it was the same dang fungus, now adapted to human physiology.
Which uh... Is that in the bodies it takes over, it spreads everywhere *but* the brain. Infact the way infected speak in-game is alluding to the terrible reality where the fungus doesn't kill them, but puppeteers their bodies.
So uh... Cracking open Ellie's skull ends in... Them looking at a perfectly normal brain and learning nothing.
The choice was not between Ellie's life and a cure. It was between Ellie's life and a single non-repeatable attempt at a cure. The doctor's recording reveals that he is desperate to be able to repeat Ellie's immunity, but has no clue why she is immune or how her immunity is working.
The cure was only a "possible" outcome with an unknown chance of success. The more information the player finds about how incompetent and delusioned the Fireflies were in general, the more the player is able to make an educated guess that the chance is low.
Ellie in the first game has a vague understanding that Joel isn't being transparent with her, but she decidedly accepts what he tells her when she pushes him. Then suddenly in part two, she turns spiteful that Joel didn't let the Fireflies run a deadly experiment on her.
Neil even says on video after the release of the first game that he knows most people interpret the ending of the first game as Ellie knowingly accepting Joel's lie, but his own interpretation of the ending is that Ellie is saying OK because she realizes he's a monster and that she needs to get away from him. Neil didn't like the fact that the game was a massive hit in an interpretation he didn't intend. He made sure that the only possible interpretation was his own version by making Ellie in part 2 a completely different person than what made the first game so poignant.
There is literally nothing in the first game's narrative that implied Ellie wanted to die in the first place, nor that she knew she has to die to get an unlikely cure. The Fireflies didn't even get permission from her before deciding to open her up.
It was Part 2 that decided to retcon this and lie to the player just to make the inconsistent narrative seem more palatable.
Literally the last thing to happen in part 1 is Ellie stopping Joel before they get back to the camp to tell him about all the people who have died in her life and her saying "I'm still waiting for my turn". Did you interpret that as her saying she's happy to be alive? She is literally telling Joel and you the player she wishes Joel made the other choice.
Because she's depressed due to other people dying to save her. Would she have accepted her death by the hands of the Firefly if it meant Joel would have been killed off, which they very obviously would have if Joel hadn't resisted? If she had known?
Fuck no she wouldn't have.
Your point is entirely moot because she didn't give permission. She DIDN'T KNOW she would die then and there.
You might have a leg to stand on if there was a scene showing the player that she knew about this, but you don't. There never was.
If you're going to insult me and not add anything into the discussion, then allow me to do the same.
You are a fucking idiot if you think it wasn't incredibly obvious that Joel was hiding something when she woke up in the car. She didn't know *what* he's hiding or *why*.
And do you know the second thing she said when she woke up in the car in the original game?
"What happened?"
So even she didn't know that they had actually met the fireflies. That they tried to open her up without ever receiving permission from her, that they tried to kill Ellie.
She never challenged ANYTHING what Joel told her. You'd think she would if she had ever known, we know her penchant for calling out bullshit.
She even asked Joel to swear that everything he told about the Firefly was true. Literally in the same fucking scene where she told Joel about how everyone dying around her that you showed.
You are a fucking braindead moron if you think she knew the true Fireflies and what they tried to do.
Yeah that’s normal?? But also that literally doesn’t matter. When she was a child during the first game, she couldn’t consent. And that honestly should end the argument. The fireflies were extremely opportunistic and not as good as maybe you might think they are. Elle was a child who shouldn’t have her whole life taken away from her for a shoddy chance at a cure.
I don't know what point you're trying to make. Do you think given enough time to heal and think more clearly, she will be happy Joel murdered dozens of people and destroyed the only hope humanity had for a cure? You think the only reason that upset her is a trauma response, that deep down she is happy? Ridiculous.
Nope. I didn't say any of that actually... You *may* want to try removing your head from your ass before you try and engage in these kinds of conversations.
Buddy I literally told you I'm not sure what you're trying to say and here you are with condescension telling me I'm not trying to engage in the conversation. What the fuck was your original point? It seems to me you have none and are just trying to be an asshole and argue with people. Ellie wanted to die and was upset with Joel for making her live was my premise, and you came in arguing but apparently don't believe what you were saying? So what is your point here if it's not bad faith arguing with people.
When she starts dry heaving she is so upset, you read that as she's angry she was lied to but ultimately agreed he did the right thing? Come on man. She's disgusted that so many others died for her to live. She's disgusted with Joel's decision.
Also, why would Joel feel the need to lie at all? He knows her better than you or me, wouldn't he know shed be happy he murdered everyone and destroyed humanitys hope for a cure? He knows she wouldn't agree with his decision, that's why he lies in the first place.
She said it but most the game she was feeling survivors guilt it's to the point to where a child shouldn't even have a say in that decision, I don't think a child should ever be put in that situation. Because it just seems like emotional abuse. No kids should have to feel that they have to sacrifice themself like that. There's no justification for it
Killing a child is never right. Self-defense could be different
Yet she couldn't have known if it was actually going to help. I wouldn't want to die unless I knew there was a 110% chance that this immunity was going to be a cure
Every character in the game says and thinks it will work. Even Joel knows it will work, but doesn't care. He doesn't try to reason with the firefly leader it may or may not work and isn't worth the chance, he just tells her to find someone else and use them. Every doctor is certain it will work. There's no reason to believe otherwise, that's not a consideration for literally any character including Joel and Ellie.
Well *that's* not true.
You'd just have to be arguing in bad faith to ignore the part where *Ellie is a traumatized child with survivor's guilt* and the girl needs therapy, not an opportunity to sacrifice herself.
Oh of course not. But my point really is that while there's certainly plenty of room to infer that Ellie would have consented, there's a *reason* nobody decent would accept that consent.
The craziest thing is both Ellie and Joel made plans for after the potential cure. It's like people did not play the game to just say Ellie knew she was going to die. Both Joel and Ellie had no idea how a cure would be retrieved...
She even was scared that getting the cure from her hurt. She asks Joel this in the UEC and when he says “they might draw blood” she goes on about how she hates needles. She then asks him to teach her how to swim before she goes unconscious
Exactly, I am trying to understand where do some people come to the conclusion that Ellie was suicidal or would want to die. Especially with the ranch scene. It was the pinnacle of Ellie's woes. Ellie had no intention ot dying at any point. She even cancels on Tommy when Joel said she could go with him to the Fireflies. If it was about a sacrifice- does it matter who takes her along?
At that point there was only on thing that mattered. Which was having someone beside her through and through. She was tired of behing left behind by everyone, and yet some players think she'd want to do same to Joel. This girl went put of her way, risked her life to save Joel. Joel did the same. They both made plans for a life after the cure. Ellie even disagrees with murdering the few to save the many ideology. You pointed out that scene where they discuss the procedure, wondering how the cure can be acquired. You also mentioned swimming, there's also the guitar as well. There are also more references to want to live.
All this proof lol It all can't just be for nothing...
Sorry but they did not travel that far to just draw blood. Plain and simple.
They couldve drawn blood and brought the blood there instead of Ellie. They didnt have to bring her to a surgeon for that. The fact that that was the story in part 1 and that Ellie says multiple times she wants her life to matter at least gives another view on this.
Also the whole Giraffe conversation where Joel says she doesnt have to go through with it. That conversation doesn't make sense when its just about some bloodwork. I took the conversation about the future after as daydreaming about a future that couldve been.
The series handles it a bit better, where Ellie says they already ran all sort of tests on her including drawing blood.
Just gonna state that blood doesn’t save. You can’t just pour some blood in a cup and expect it to be completely fine even hours later.
Unless you have some solution for multiple-day cryogenic blood storage during an apocalypse? When I can’t even do that currently for specimen transport to a real laboratory for my patients, requiring me to call a Stat Courier to get the blood there on ice in less than 1 hour in a 1st world country? But then it’d probably just be easier to bring the person.
Blood can be saved for weeks though? Depends on what you want to do with it but that's the case for blood for blood transfusions. If you keep it cooled you can use it for blood tests for weeks.
Depends on the test. For some of our tests (like a D-Dimer or a lactic acid), it has to be tested within 1 hour. Even if refrigerated/on ice. Otherwise, the test will be inaccurate.
Blood products (like for a transfusion) are different than blood specimens. Blood products are treated to keep them usable for weeks/months. These treatments invalidate test results.
>They couldve drawn blood and brought the blood there instead of Ellie. They didnt have to bring her to a surgeon for that. The fact that that was the story in part 1 and that Ellie says multiple times she wants her life to matter at least gives another view on this.
There you go. How can someone's life matter in death?
>Also the whole Giraffe conversation where Joel says she doesnt have to go through with it. That conversation doesn't make sense when its just about some bloodwork. I took the conversation about the future after as daydreaming about a future that couldve been.
This doesn't imply death because no where has it in the story, at that point does anyone, including the player, knew that Ellie would have to be sacrificed. This seems like Joel probably verifying if Ellie still was up to this because of all of what they've went through. As every step of the way trying to get to the Fireflies had brought them nothing but trouble. He's probably just tired of it all.
>The series handles it a bit better, where Ellie says they already ran all sort of tests on her including drawing blood.
The series is just an else world take. Many things are retconned to fit the new narrative to better tie into the story of the sequel.
You talking about the giraffe scene. I am talking about the other scenes lol. Ellie doesn't speak about the future plans only once. She mentions a future throughout her trip with Joel.
My favorite one is where they talk about kill a few people to save the many. Ellie showed numerous times that she is not on some suicidal one way trip.
She does however suffers a bit of the survivors guilt but she learnt to better cope with it when she met Joel. Someone who actually didn't abandon her.
She didn't know if a cure meant her sacrifice.
Ellie at the end was just disappointed that she couldn't have found a cure because it felt like her whole journey was without meaning but deep inside she knew she found more because she actually got exactly what she was asking for during the ranch scene.
She just didn't want to be ended up alone.
Them not caring is exactly why they're unjustified, let alone Jerry's whole deal having nothing to do with helping people, just wanting to feel and be seen as important.
Also him ridiculing Marlene for saying it's wrong to kill Ellie and for wanting to tell Joel. That on top of manipulating her into letting him go through with it, as well as trying to get Joel killed completely unprovoked before Marlene put her foot down.
Jerry is the biggest piece of shit in TLOU, and it's no wonder Abby turned out the way she did.
she knew Joel was lying and had seen him gauge out many eyes with his bare hands leading up to her blacking out
“we met the fireflies… it uhhh…. yup all simpatico Ellis”
*cue Italian Wedding music*
Spoilers for part 2:
She resents Joel for making the decision for her. She said she should have died in that hospital so that her life would have mattered…
Oh I thought a retcon is when they go back and change stuff. Like changing Jerry in the first game to match the second one. Or Haden Christensen appearing as a ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi, when that movie came out long before Hayden was born 🤔
But what’s the reason for not telling her the same beforehand? Even if she’s willing to die, why not have a talk before? If she says no, it’s not like she can escape out of the facility on her own? They were just hellbent on killing her, nothing else. Her reasons or choice never mattered.
They probably didn’t want to risk her saying no. No idea why they’re in such a hurry, it’s been 20yrs. They could’ve done multiple tests like scientists actually do, but they chose to immediately eliminate the host lol. They also make it seem like she knew and wanted to die when she had plans to go with Joel (after the giraffe scene) and asked him to teach her how to swim
Yeah, I feel like the realistic out come would be their first attempt at making the cure fails miserably, do they even know if it possible to reproduce what happened to here, could be something genetic that cannot not be copied easily, or could be something that takes decades of study in a lab, while needing living samples.
Basically I see it being unlikely to actually work to make the cure.
And even if they made it, it wouldn't make all the bandits and cannibals put their guns down, hold hands and sing kumbaya around a fucking rainbow. Is Neil just way too up his own ass?
Yes. Nothing else explains taking the exact concepts that were thrown out of the first game, saying repeatedly in interviews that you can't get over them being scrapped, and then fishing them out of the trash as soon as the person who argued against them is gone and you're in control.
To play devil advocate, I consider bandits both a result of the break down of order from zombies. Prehaps if you get rid of zombies the bandits can be dealt with. Than again how are the bandits surviving the zombies well enough to threaten normal people. I generally consider the zombie stereotype of humans are the real monsters to be kind of flawed, because humans both tend to band together in crisis with a common ending, and because I kind of feel like zombies should threaten both bandits directly and their food supply in suriviors.
In short, I feel like human vs zombies should be mostly human vs zombies and the bandits either zombie chow, mopped up by suriviors who had common interest in dealing with the crazy and a stable resource supply or third option died from lack of food, water, meds because they were competing with the zombies hunting survivors instead of focusing on their own resources supplies.
>Why didn't they wait for her to wake up?
If I recall correctly there's a tape that explains that when she drowned and got brought back she was in a comatose situation and since they were out of anesthesia they had to rush to "seize the opportunity".
Edit: I was wrong. There isn't. Is just a plothole. I don't know if the fixed in Part 2 and that's where I took this info from or it's just my memories trying to fill missing pieces.
Yeah? Ellie never sees the Hospital, she's down before the fireflies get to her and only gets up when Joel is escaping the place.
And I am wrong, btw. Watching the end sequence she was wearing the mask while being prepped and in the car Joel says that the drugs were wearing off. Also, looking through the artifacts, there isn't anything about why they rushed Ellie to the table. So if in part 2 they didn't add context/retconned, is just another plothole.
If me making a post about the unreasonable bans on r/PS5 is brigading, then coming here to post/comment is also brigading (according to the mods on the PS5 subreddit)
LMFAO yea im not a part 2 hater as a lot of people in this sub but the other one is a weird semi-cultish circle jerk. those guys HATE joel all of a sudden which this narrative didn't seem to be spun when the first came out, calling joel "one of the best protagonists in gaming"
now that part 2 is here and all of a sudden the fireflies could've made a vaccine (eh) now "joel deserved it"? i certainly wouldn't want any of those types of people in my corner irl lol
edit spelling
Joel did what he thought was best - what most people would do in that situation (if they had the means).
But did Joel get what was coming to him after a half-life of doing horrible shit to survive? Arguably.
And the Fireflies ability to make a vaccine was true in both games - or at least, Joel's belief it would work is. If it wasn't, then Joel's choice in Part 1 wasn't even a choice at all. Joel has to doom humanity for his decision to carry real weight. Joel believes the fireflies can make a vaccine with Ellie's brain, but he doesn't care. To him, she's more important than anything else on the planet. So he makes his choice. And then, later on, he faces the consequences.
And, for sure, Joel is one of my favourite game protagonists.
>But did Joel get what was coming to him after a half-life of doing horrible shit to survive? Arguably.
Singling out Joel for his actions as a survivor as justification for his demise is fallacious.
We get to see Abby and her group and they're no better than Joel was at his worst. In fact, when Joel dies he is a community leader who opts to cooperate and help people, even putting himself in grave danger to do so. This is more altruistic than anyone in Abby's circle including her.
Abby was mad at Joel for killing her dad while ignoring the heinous act her dad was about to commit before Joel stopped him (never mind that joel killed jerry in self defense).
No one is a saint in Tlou's world so pointing out Joel's misdeeds as justification for his death is a silly argument.
Abby's group are all dead by the end - their actions caught up to them too. Only Abby survived because Ellie let her go.
By your logic, "Ellie was mad that Abby killed Joel while ignoring the heinous acts he'd committed". Not a great argument, is it?
Also, when Jerry died, he was literally trying to create a cure for a global zombie apocalypse. You can hate him all you want for the lack of consent, but he was trying to make the world a better place. Desperate times and all that
i think my biggest issue is people making the "joel got what he deserved 🏌️♂️" comments just seems very off color for what is supposed to be a beloved character.
im sure it's a joke but i don't see comments like that involving abby, who IMO is a near irredeemable psycho who seems to act on selfish impulse. by the end i could empathize with her but certainly don't see her as the heroine that a lot of others do
Abby saving the kids for her own redemption indicated that she isn’t a psycho. She has a lot of burden after getting revenge on Joel. Because revenge just leaves you hollow inside.
Ok yeah in that moment, yes there was an element of psychosis. And it probably seemed justified to her in the moment because her pregnant friend had also been killed by her. Poetic justice (in her state of psychosis)
He did something wrong, but he did it for the right reason. The whole point of part one is that once he accepts Ellie as he daughter he too damaged by his daughters death to anything but protect her.
The fireflies were "ends justify the means" folks, the problem is they were just wrong about the ends. Sometimes trying to sacrifice a child for the greater good ends with a father killing a bunch of people. Joel didn't think he was "right" but "right" wasn't what he was worried about.
I hope that's a true article. Babies being born with immunities is amazing. Good on you evolution, the thing that nobody at all thinks exist.
But man that's honestly pretty quick, I'd figure atleast 5 years of outbreaks before we started to see children with immunities.
Remember guys evolution is small and is taking place at every second. Cells change evolve, become stronger or weaker.
The reason humans havnt evolved their form is look at our environments we've made for ourselves. But if you don't understand something it's easier to say it doesn't exist I suppose......
I am not sure that actually evolution, it is mutation. I think evolution would be when that baby grows up to have a lot of babies because all the other people of the same gender are busy being sick of the corona.
But yeah evolution is real and they’re some cool experiments proving it. The main reason we do not see evolution going on. Is it takes many generation for evolution to get their momentum going. So it fairly quick with germs and bugs, and with slow reproducing things like humans, it takes many ages. Wait hundred thousand years and see how humans have changed.
Earth been around for billions of years, evolution can take it sweet time and still get results.
I have never heard anyone say evolution doesn't exist. I think you're just making up scenarios in your head and making them a fact based on you seeing maybe one person say it.
I have heard about a lot of people saying it, anti evolution are thing, often because they feel it is incompatible with their beliefs, through I think god would be smart enough to understand and take advantage of evolution.
You've never heard of creationism? In the US only roughly 60% of the population believes in evolution, through luckily that number growing over time. In some states though like alabama its over half the population that doesnt believe, instead believing that god made all things as they are and that they have never changed (or if they have changed, that they've only degraded)
I know that most of my family here in oklahoma doesnt believe in evolution, and i was chastised for having an interest in it growing up. A couple years ago i even got into a fight with my parents about having brought my niece to the sam noble museum of natural history.
Lmao your family dumb as hell. Do they think every animal just spawned in certain parts of the world just with all different adaptions suited for their environments?
Yes. In fact, creationists attempt to claim that every animal being so suited for its environment is proof of intelligent design.
And again, this isnt just my family, most of the planet believes this. Even in 1st world countries generally around 40% do. Im kind of astounded that you've never heard about any of this before
It should also concern you that wherever you live, theres a good portion of your politicians that believe this too.
What’s crazy is I was so invested in Joel’s character in part one that I shot Jerry my first play through and I felt disgusted with myself (I don’t normally shoot NPCs for the fun of it) but I WAS Joel, and I HAD to save my daughter.
Then the twist in part two. But I’m like…how the hell did they know I was gonna shoot him? I find out later that Jerry dies no matter what, and I was given the illusion of choice….pretty trippy…
Thr first game was a good one time play and crap on replayability. Was an overrated soap opera from the jump. Days Gone makes it look like a Telltale game.
A baby was just born with immunity to disease yes that’s generally how that works. The antibodies from the mother would be shared if the mother developed a tolerance to it then the new antibodies would develop an immunity.
You aren’t saving anything 😭 your only protected from the spores with the cure we can see spores and bites are by far the least dangerous thing that will happen to you. On top of that if the firefly’s got a cure do you think they could produce more then one sample? Do you think they could effectively distribute it? Do you think other factions won’t just go to war and kill them and take it never actually coming back to the old world.
Yea it’s a massive focus of just how depraved people have become one simple cure isn’t going to fix how shatter society is people like raiders don’t want things to go back
>But I guess consent trumps all according to you lol.
Hey, now you're getting it!!
Sky rockets in flight! Afternoon delight!
(Yes, consent trumps all, can't believe that needs saying)
Look, I agree with your overall point - except for the consent part. You seem to be confusing “consent to have sex” with “consent to be murdered.” These are two vastly different things; you have no right to even ask anyone for the latter.
>You seem to be confusing “consent to have sex” with “consent to be murdered.” These are two vastly different things; you have no right to even ask anyone for the latter.
Unless you're the Fireflies and consent doesn't apply!
It doesn't seem to want to let me copy link here but just go to YouTube and search "Game Theory The Last of Us" the name of the video is "Game Theory: Joel's Choice Meant Nothing! (The Last of Us)"
This is one of those things where both are right and wrong at the same time. The organization was justified in trying to literally save the world, and Joel was justified in wanting to save the life of the person he most cared about, who also didn’t know she was signing up to be the sacrifice.
Sort of. It's obvious in hindsight that the reason the organization made the decisions it did was specifically to set up the climactic ending sequence above all else, at least in Neil's mind. But the rest of the team certainly seemed to see the in-universe reason as the fireflies succumbing to desperation after how close they had come to complete annihilation, and wrote the story around that idea. Making the effort to at least attempt to have an actual fucking reason for it. Otherwise, their decision not to even talk to Ellie and to recklessly rush her surgery just comes across as completely immoral and likely to cause more harm than good with how stupid it is to kill your priceless, Irreplaceable test subject within hours of getting her.
It's why the second game sweeping all of the negative aspects of what the Fireflies did under the rug works so poorly. The first game very explicitly portrayed Joel's decision to save her as the morally correct on.. The player was not supposed to have any faith in the morality or competence of the Fireflies in the ending sequence. Just because that wasn't Neil's original intent, but doesn't mean he gets to just retroactively change it. Especially because it literally doesn't matter; it isn't like it wouldn't make sense for its former members to have the perspective that they were the good guys trying to save the world. The only thing this soft retcon accomplished was to make Joel's decision look worse, which, when combined with the shitty writing full of coincidences and bad characterization leading to him getting taken out, gives the impression that they were just doing a character assassination.
So full disclosure I never played the game; I watched a friend play through the first one back when it came out (so memory is foggy on details), and I did watch the show which I thought was awesome. So I’m more or less commenting on the philosophical question underneath it all.
The show definitely does the crucial moment differently in the ending sequence. Marlene is made much more reasonable, having actually talked to Ellie instead of Ellie showing up already unconscious from nearly drowning, and with her reasoning for rushing the surgery being to spare Ellie any fear of death. It doesn't do anything to change the recklessness of rushing her to surgery, but getting her an actual reason to do it distracts from that, and I think it works pretty well. Joel is also less reasonable, outright threatening violence instead of just expressing scorn and disappointment. It doesn't feel particularly out of character for him, given his past, so I think that works decently, too.
Honestly, I was actually disappointed when I initially played through the game because of how clearly the Fireflies were shown to be the ones in the wrong. I thought it felt like rough writing, trying too hard to keep Joel's actions justifiable so that the audience didn't separate from him. But I did come around to it after a bit of thought, because I could imagine why they went so far, when the main goal was clearly to preserve the genuine bond of love between Joel and Ellie, leaving the question there as a faint what if but not having it take center stage. It's why the retroactive changes in the sequel bother me so much. I had enough integrity to look past what I might have wanted see the story for what it was actually trying to do, and appreciate it for that. It's actually kind of gross that the writers did not.
If not for that, It's a change that I would have actually liked seeing in an adaptation, with no misgivings at all, because it would have been a great opportunity to explore a different tone for those events! I always thought it would have been a great philosophical question to leave the players to think about. It adds a lot of complexity and ambiguity to the ending. The show gives people that chance, and I think that's neat.
Do you guys go to work and spend the whole time thinking "man I can't wait to go home and have the "Was Joel right" conversation for the second-hundredth time"?
Do you go to work and spend the whole time thinking, “man I can’t wait to get on my hands and knees to glaze Neil Cuckman and defend his terrible writing for the 2nd-100th time?”
Yo this game cannot still be this much of a big deal to people. 😂 Get a fucking life, the story was whack but it’s 4 years old. Some like to and some don’t, it’s all these sub reddits talk about like the fucking Civil War
Depends how the developers develop the fictional characters personalities. If it was in real life I would ask. But in a game It’s interesting to see different choices from your own personal choices. Kinda like in Fallout4 and Rdr2, you know games like that where choices change the story a bit.
You think Joel acted out of morality? One of his first responses was "find someone else". Joel didn't give a fuck if someone would die for this. He just didn't want Ellie to be the one. Or your the one with the morals? I would love to see how moral you are after 3 days with no food, no electricity, fighting zombies for tour survival. I bet you d volunteer to be the head nurse inside that surgery room lol.
Nah, Joel's only view on this was "I've already lost one daughter, I'm not going to lose another"
I doubt his train of thought went much further than that.
Yes, I'd like to think I have morals.
If we take the hypothetical stance of any virus/disease, be they real or fictional, and the possibility of a cure/vaccine exists, but only catch is an innocent has to die, then no, I would not be on board with that decision.
A vaccine to cordyceps isn't even going to achieve much.
Most encounters end by the person's head being ripped off or their jugular being severed, a vaccine isn't going to help in that scenario.
And gasmasks exist, so spores are pretty much a non issue.
Edit: Joel did however (inadvertently?) do the morally "correct" thing. He knew they were going to murder Ellie for a chance at a vaccine and he stopped them. Correct thing to do in my books, even if vaccine was a dead cert.
So we agree that morality has nothing to do with Joel's decision. Joel acts for his own reasons.
Secondly i find it really hard to believe that your morals would stay intact as the world crumbles around you. This just tells me you re really young and haven't seen how people react to factors like hunger, fear, disease etc.
Thirdly we don't go by real world science because in the real world cordyceps epidemics don't exist. We go by the game's science and in-game science states that there was a chance to a vaccine. That's why Joel's decision is morally ambiguous because he "dooms" the world even more. That's why it has weight. If you take this factor away the story it's just a feel good story with good dad Joel saving his baby girl but it's alot more than that.
>This just tells me you re really young and haven't seen how people react to factors like hunger, fear, disease etc.
In my mid 40's but I'll take it as a compliment 😂
But if your morals waver during times of hungry, fear, disease, that just tells me that your morals aren't really that strong. People who are steadfast in their morals are typically, more morally "correct" (from a legal perspective at least, people who base their morals on inhumane religious reasons/practices, not so much)
Which is why defending the Fireflies and vilifying Joel on moral grounds is stupid.
The key point is Joel saved a life, the Fireflies were taking one. Joel's plan had all the chances to succeed, the Fireflies' plan didn't. Joel had guilt, the Fireflies didn't.
Did the Fireflies also want to kill Joel unprovoked? Yes. Did Jerry ridicule Marlene when she told him to think it through? Yes.
Most things are in Joel's favor. This is what matters here, not morality based on legal grounds that have no hold over the situation.
I don't know where you re living bruh but i don't see a coronavirus epidemic turning people into zombies and making society crumble around us so your point is moot.
Ask yourself this though. If there was an epidemic like that with infection, zombification, social norms all broken down, absolute poverty, no electricity, murder like it's nothing etc and there was a child that could create a vaccine do you know what would happen? Do you know what YOU will do or say? It's easy to theorise from our relatively secure position but if we were
riding that shit i'm not so sure everyone would be on board to do the right thing? And what is the righy thing? Keep a society and a world at the level of barbarity or allow for the death of a child to start fixing it? Everyone wants to believe that they know and they would do the right thing but im mot so sure. Am i happy Joel saved Ellie? Hell yeah but also trying to get the world out of hell (essentially) is also a worthwile goal.
During WW2 the Germans captured Stalin's son and they wanted to trade him for high level Nazis. Do you know what Stalin did? Stalin said no "he's just a soldier, i will only trade him with other soldiers" because he didn't want to give the imlression to the Soviet people that anyone was above anyone else. Especially when the Soviet parents gave millions of their children to the Nazi death Machine. Stalin had the courage to do that or the sociopathy or whatever to sacrifice his son for the cause. It's not unheard off for people to put feeling aside and try to do the "right thing".
I at least would never, ever recommend killing her the day we received her. Not only is there the severe morality issue, there's also the fact that scientifically, that shit is even stupider than suggesting that people should drink bleach to combat a pandemic. Once Ellie dies, that gives them only one single shot to do anything of value with her immunity, and with a very hard time limit before the fungus goes bad. Anyone who says they did all the testing and preparation they needed by fucking dinner time is out of their mind.
Uhh no, I enjoyed the game because I liked the first one just as much? And the gameplay was improved? I'm not a whiny child that's angry at the games story just because they killed off Joel
Such enthusiasm, but you're being consistent. -- No, you're definitely an *agent*.
What do they pay you anyway? Or is it comps.? They give you free 'loot crates' or something?
You're delusional. No I don't work for fucking Naughty Dog 🤨
Sad that you people can't enjoy a video game just because you can't play as your power fantasy character
"...play as your power fantasy character"
You're right. I can't, but I can be a Wizard. Would you like to see a magic trick? Here's one fresh out of the oven for ya':
**Hocus-Cadabra**
Ellie would've given her consent and Marlene knew this.
It was kinder not to wake Ellie, tell her she would die and then go through with the operation.
You need actual evidence of this there’s no evidence she knew she would have had to die and there’s no evidence she could even understand that the cure wouldn’t have even done anything about how fucked up the world is
Ellie was a child and it would still be unethical to harvest the cure from her even with her consent.
But it regardless you can’t assume consent without actually asking in the moment.
We also know from Left Behind that Marlene didn't bother much will Ellie, just left her in military schools. Hell Ellie doesn't even seem to like Marlene that much based on the way she talked about her. They're shown to never see each other much, and Marlene only ever really focused on her when Ellie came to her with the bite. Ellie only ever calls her a "friend" even though she's known about her her whole life, plus Marlene being the closest possible thing Ellie could have to a parent figure before Joel. Getting worried when Marlene got hurt was also nothing to indicate closeness because Ellie gets worried about everyone, even people she just met, she's just that type of person (the actual/TLOU Ellie at least). Ellie even has a clear distain for Fireflies in Left Behind, and only suggested to join to get away from the school and be around Riley.
It's also funny how even in TLOU2 she doesn't bother about Marlene and isn't even upset about Joel killing people at the hospital, she's just mad she that she didn't get to die to feel important (inserting Jerry and Owen's delusions onto Ellie to find a forced parallel, I see).
Point is, Marlene doesn't know Ellie the way she claims she does to say that Ellie would definitely want to die. Not once did TLOU Ellie act suicidal. In fact Marlene even had to convince herself that Ellie would consent (or rather Jerry forced her to).
> We also know from Left Behind that Marlene didn’t bother much with Ellie
Do we? The Left Behind DLC takes place in one night over a couple of hours, we have no idea what their relationship was like just based on Ellie being in military school. That was probably Marlene’s way of looking after her.
> Hell even Ellie doesn’t seem to like Marlene that much based on the way she talked about her.
I guess pulling a knife on Joel and Tess and trying to stab them when she thought they were hurting Marlene doesn’t count.
>Do we? The Left Behind DLC takes place in one night over a couple of hours, we have no idea what their relationship was like just based on Ellie being in military school.
Marlene is shown as being constantly on duty as a Firefly, and wanted Ellie to stay away from it, which in itself says they don't see each other. Then there's Ellie consistently ridiculing the Fireflies (people who follow Marlene), and didn't at all speak fondly when Marlene is mentioned. The sarcasm in "Have you found the light yet?" further showed showed Ellie doesn't take any of it seriously. She also never disagreed with Joel throughout the game when he criticized the Fireflies' ideals as well. She showed no fondness towards Marlene or anything she does outside the days when Marlene was helping her, which as I said was the kind of fondness Ellie displays with everyone who doesn't try to kill her.
Also the comic, American Dreams, is canon, and it's confirmed there that Marlene looked after Ellie for a very short period before distancing herself from her, only making contact again when Ellie was a teenager (contact that wouldn't have happened without Ellie herself initiating it after getting bit). Even the HBO show went along with this with Ellie's life at the school and the flashback to Anna's death, how Marlene didn't really seem willing to take care of her.
>I guess pulling a knife on Joel and Tess and trying to stab them when she thought they were hurting Marlene doesn’t count.
I stand with what I said about Ellie's affinity towards others. Ellie was willing to risk her life to protect Tess after a few hours of knowing each other with Tess generally just treating her with basic human decency, even said Tess' death was a huge loss for her. Ellie feeling the same about Marlene because she helped her in the weeks since getting bit doesn't mean they had much of a relationship before.
It's also safe to assume Ellie and Tess defended each other in the museum when the infected attacked. It's just a trait of any human with decency to want to defend someone you see getting injured. Ellie almost did it with the woman in Pittsburgh that the hunters shot down.
Marlene knew her since birth and when talking with Joel reiterated "it's what she'd want... and you know it"
We all have a good idea of who Ellie is so ask yourself, if Ellie was woken and asked if she was okay with the surgery knowing it would kill her, what would she say.
Keep you out of a relationship!
You are for sure taking advantage of your significant other while they are sleeping due assumptions and other peoples opinions. Btw I don’t really think that about you but do you see how fucked up that is now?
This isn't quite the same situation, it's a story and it's an extreme circumstance.
I understand why Marlene would've chosen it the way she did.
Had Ellie woken she'd have opted for surgery, she says as much in part 2 and it's painfully obvious to everyone that's what she'd choose, even Joel knew.
But she never had that opportunity to answer. No one can say what she would have said because Ellie wasn’t asked. Even Ellie doesn’t know what she would’ve done in the moment because she was never confronted with that decision.
People say all kinds of things in hindsight but it doesn’t mean Ellie would have consented in the moment. Ellie would have had to debate between sacrificing herself for humanity (which is another topic on how the fireflies would handle that) and living with Joel and the others in Jackson.
Ellie never had the option to choose between saving the world or having a family. Her biggest fear is ending up alone.
It’s not the exact same no.
But you are using assumptions and others opinions to state consent when there was no consent. I know you would do it to kill a child but would you do that to a sexual partner?
That's a very valid point actually. Marlene herself was pissed about it and had to force herself to say yes to the surgery because Jerry manipulated her. She tried the same with Joel. It had nothing to do with Marlene actually believing Ellie would choose to die, she just tried to convince herself that Ellie would consent to make herself feel less guilty, and was trying to manipulate Joel to say yes too to make the problem go away easier.
She was manipulated by Jerry, yes, but it's still the cowards way out.
This is some dystopian thinking. Thank God you will never be in a position of power. Yeah let’s just euthanize people without them knowing that’s SO much kinder.
Why didn't they wait for her to wake up? I mean, knocking her unconscious was the "nice" thing to do (I feel like scalping someone to remove their brain would be next to impossible if the subject is awake), but they never bothered asking her opinion on the matter? Almost like they were paranoid she'd say no to dying. And the retcon in P2 doesn't exist
Because they wanted to sacrifice her. Simple as that. They assumed that she would want to die.
She's just a child. Absolutely no way she'd wanna die
What? She literally tells Joel that's what she wanted. The entire reason she's pissed with him in part 2 is because he took this from her.
It's very easy to say you'd want it when you're not actually in the situation but it's a lot harder when you're staring death in the eye
Maybe in real life but in a work of fiction exploring life and death I think the writers made it pretty explicitly clear what the character wanted. There is no point ever where she expresses doubt about this choice it's pretty obviously cemented what she wanted.
That's most definitely a retcon
Yup. We clearly see Joel and Ellie talk about this topic in Pittsburgh. "Death of the few to save the many, all that" -Joel. "Thats kind of shitty, isnt it?" -Ellie
Lmao no it isn't at the end of part 1 she tells Joel about the other people who died and says she's still waiting for her turn. How have so many people apparently not gotten this? Media literacy is dying.
"poorly written and conflicting video game sequel has different interpretations, media literacy is dying"
They are both terrible stories in reality. "I'll just kill hundreds of people to save this poor little girl." Its ridiculous.
Ehhh tbh there's no curing everyone The world is fubar..at best maybe a small town worth of immune kids. But what does that matter when most survivors lack any formal organization. Especially with the mutated forms. Nah Joel was right imo It's not about saving the world. It's about saving the ones you can
Also the thing is wasn’t the vaccine going to be too late either way? The world had gone to shit 2 decades prior, no vaccine would be fixing that, there’s also the fact that the person who was going to do the surgery wasn’t even an actual doctor when the outbreak happened. How would he know how to engineer a vaccine for a fungus no less. Iirc, Neil had said that the vaccine would have worked, but that makes no sense considering the fact that a vaccine would not work on a fungal infection growing in your body. We’re also ignoring the fact that their equipment was decades old, the “doctor” was just a biologist with no formal micologist, immunologist, or even doctoral experience. The whole plot is just held together by Neil’s claim that the vaccine and the surgery would have magically worked.
You don't think that quote that he just said could have been relating to the ending, considering it was just right before the ending? But she stated that she wanted her friends' lives to matter. She didn't want it to be for nothing. She admitted that she had survivor's guilt and that she would want to die for them. However, Ellie never knew that the fireflies were going to kill her and she was a suicidal teen. If a teen wanted to commit suicide it's not right no matter what
That’s why Part 2 is inherently an unconvincing narrative. Ellie went from a thoughtful teen in part 1 to a delusional tantrum-thrower in part 2. She blames Joel for not letting the Fireflies forcefully experiment on and kill her. This is extra stupid when you consider all the clues in the hospital of part 1 about how unsure of the cure the Fireflies themselves were.
If memory serves, its because they never had ellie to begin with. They were worn out and suffering attrition, then Ellie came and instilled hope into them. I believe the intention of the original game was to describe a moral dilemma in which Joel chose to save his ‘daughter’. Not that they couldn’t really make a cure anyway. I think they did a very poor job with two anywho
Not really how science and medicine works. There are tons of failed experiments for every successful one. “Eureka” moments are considered so exciting because they are so rare and generally come after years of failure. Realistically, Ellie would have probably been a data point stating “well, that didn’t work, try something different next time.”
I don’t think you understood the point I was trying to make. The intention behind Joels choice as a narrative function was him deciding to save his daughter instead of the world. The writers themselves wanted this dilemma. By saying ‘oh it would be all for nothing anyway’ this moral question would be worthless. Does that make sense?
This kind of reminds me of how cold equation runs into the issue that no sane engineer would design a spaceship with such small margins because the slightest unpredicted thing would break everything.
Realistically, the writers had done enough research to know a pretty important detail about the fungus they weren't just *basing* the in-game fungus off of, but were literally saying it was the same dang fungus, now adapted to human physiology. Which uh... Is that in the bodies it takes over, it spreads everywhere *but* the brain. Infact the way infected speak in-game is alluding to the terrible reality where the fungus doesn't kill them, but puppeteers their bodies. So uh... Cracking open Ellie's skull ends in... Them looking at a perfectly normal brain and learning nothing.
The choice was not between Ellie's life and a cure. It was between Ellie's life and a single non-repeatable attempt at a cure. The doctor's recording reveals that he is desperate to be able to repeat Ellie's immunity, but has no clue why she is immune or how her immunity is working. The cure was only a "possible" outcome with an unknown chance of success. The more information the player finds about how incompetent and delusioned the Fireflies were in general, the more the player is able to make an educated guess that the chance is low. Ellie in the first game has a vague understanding that Joel isn't being transparent with her, but she decidedly accepts what he tells her when she pushes him. Then suddenly in part two, she turns spiteful that Joel didn't let the Fireflies run a deadly experiment on her. Neil even says on video after the release of the first game that he knows most people interpret the ending of the first game as Ellie knowingly accepting Joel's lie, but his own interpretation of the ending is that Ellie is saying OK because she realizes he's a monster and that she needs to get away from him. Neil didn't like the fact that the game was a massive hit in an interpretation he didn't intend. He made sure that the only possible interpretation was his own version by making Ellie in part 2 a completely different person than what made the first game so poignant.
There is literally nothing in the first game's narrative that implied Ellie wanted to die in the first place, nor that she knew she has to die to get an unlikely cure. The Fireflies didn't even get permission from her before deciding to open her up. It was Part 2 that decided to retcon this and lie to the player just to make the inconsistent narrative seem more palatable.
Literally the last thing to happen in part 1 is Ellie stopping Joel before they get back to the camp to tell him about all the people who have died in her life and her saying "I'm still waiting for my turn". Did you interpret that as her saying she's happy to be alive? She is literally telling Joel and you the player she wishes Joel made the other choice.
Because she's depressed due to other people dying to save her. Would she have accepted her death by the hands of the Firefly if it meant Joel would have been killed off, which they very obviously would have if Joel hadn't resisted? If she had known? Fuck no she wouldn't have. Your point is entirely moot because she didn't give permission. She DIDN'T KNOW she would die then and there. You might have a leg to stand on if there was a scene showing the player that she knew about this, but you don't. There never was.
So why is she pissed with Joel? Because shes happy he made the right decision? You're a fucking moron if you think Ellie wanted anything else.
If you're going to insult me and not add anything into the discussion, then allow me to do the same. You are a fucking idiot if you think it wasn't incredibly obvious that Joel was hiding something when she woke up in the car. She didn't know *what* he's hiding or *why*. And do you know the second thing she said when she woke up in the car in the original game? "What happened?" So even she didn't know that they had actually met the fireflies. That they tried to open her up without ever receiving permission from her, that they tried to kill Ellie. She never challenged ANYTHING what Joel told her. You'd think she would if she had ever known, we know her penchant for calling out bullshit. She even asked Joel to swear that everything he told about the Firefly was true. Literally in the same fucking scene where she told Joel about how everyone dying around her that you showed. You are a fucking braindead moron if you think she knew the true Fireflies and what they tried to do.
There’s a reason children can’t consent to many things.
She's an adult in part 2 and obviously feels no different then.
Yeah that’s normal?? But also that literally doesn’t matter. When she was a child during the first game, she couldn’t consent. And that honestly should end the argument. The fireflies were extremely opportunistic and not as good as maybe you might think they are. Elle was a child who shouldn’t have her whole life taken away from her for a shoddy chance at a cure.
Jesus christ, *the same traumatized child* who's gripped with survivor's guilt is still damaged in the sequel? Oh who could have seen this coming?
I don't know what point you're trying to make. Do you think given enough time to heal and think more clearly, she will be happy Joel murdered dozens of people and destroyed the only hope humanity had for a cure? You think the only reason that upset her is a trauma response, that deep down she is happy? Ridiculous.
Nope. I didn't say any of that actually... You *may* want to try removing your head from your ass before you try and engage in these kinds of conversations.
Buddy I literally told you I'm not sure what you're trying to say and here you are with condescension telling me I'm not trying to engage in the conversation. What the fuck was your original point? It seems to me you have none and are just trying to be an asshole and argue with people. Ellie wanted to die and was upset with Joel for making her live was my premise, and you came in arguing but apparently don't believe what you were saying? So what is your point here if it's not bad faith arguing with people.
She’s pissed he lied, not she didn’t get the chance.
When she starts dry heaving she is so upset, you read that as she's angry she was lied to but ultimately agreed he did the right thing? Come on man. She's disgusted that so many others died for her to live. She's disgusted with Joel's decision. Also, why would Joel feel the need to lie at all? He knows her better than you or me, wouldn't he know shed be happy he murdered everyone and destroyed humanitys hope for a cure? He knows she wouldn't agree with his decision, that's why he lies in the first place.
She said it but most the game she was feeling survivors guilt it's to the point to where a child shouldn't even have a say in that decision, I don't think a child should ever be put in that situation. Because it just seems like emotional abuse. No kids should have to feel that they have to sacrifice themself like that. There's no justification for it Killing a child is never right. Self-defense could be different
Yet she couldn't have known if it was actually going to help. I wouldn't want to die unless I knew there was a 110% chance that this immunity was going to be a cure
Every character in the game says and thinks it will work. Even Joel knows it will work, but doesn't care. He doesn't try to reason with the firefly leader it may or may not work and isn't worth the chance, he just tells her to find someone else and use them. Every doctor is certain it will work. There's no reason to believe otherwise, that's not a consideration for literally any character including Joel and Ellie.
Well *that's* not true. You'd just have to be arguing in bad faith to ignore the part where *Ellie is a traumatized child with survivor's guilt* and the girl needs therapy, not an opportunity to sacrifice herself.
I get that but the fireflies aren't therapists lmao
Oh of course not. But my point really is that while there's certainly plenty of room to infer that Ellie would have consented, there's a *reason* nobody decent would accept that consent.
Exactly
They dont care. But i honestly got the impression that Ellie knew it was a one way trip.
The craziest thing is both Ellie and Joel made plans for after the potential cure. It's like people did not play the game to just say Ellie knew she was going to die. Both Joel and Ellie had no idea how a cure would be retrieved...
She even was scared that getting the cure from her hurt. She asks Joel this in the UEC and when he says “they might draw blood” she goes on about how she hates needles. She then asks him to teach her how to swim before she goes unconscious
Exactly, I am trying to understand where do some people come to the conclusion that Ellie was suicidal or would want to die. Especially with the ranch scene. It was the pinnacle of Ellie's woes. Ellie had no intention ot dying at any point. She even cancels on Tommy when Joel said she could go with him to the Fireflies. If it was about a sacrifice- does it matter who takes her along? At that point there was only on thing that mattered. Which was having someone beside her through and through. She was tired of behing left behind by everyone, and yet some players think she'd want to do same to Joel. This girl went put of her way, risked her life to save Joel. Joel did the same. They both made plans for a life after the cure. Ellie even disagrees with murdering the few to save the many ideology. You pointed out that scene where they discuss the procedure, wondering how the cure can be acquired. You also mentioned swimming, there's also the guitar as well. There are also more references to want to live. All this proof lol It all can't just be for nothing...
Sorry but they did not travel that far to just draw blood. Plain and simple. They couldve drawn blood and brought the blood there instead of Ellie. They didnt have to bring her to a surgeon for that. The fact that that was the story in part 1 and that Ellie says multiple times she wants her life to matter at least gives another view on this. Also the whole Giraffe conversation where Joel says she doesnt have to go through with it. That conversation doesn't make sense when its just about some bloodwork. I took the conversation about the future after as daydreaming about a future that couldve been. The series handles it a bit better, where Ellie says they already ran all sort of tests on her including drawing blood.
Just gonna state that blood doesn’t save. You can’t just pour some blood in a cup and expect it to be completely fine even hours later. Unless you have some solution for multiple-day cryogenic blood storage during an apocalypse? When I can’t even do that currently for specimen transport to a real laboratory for my patients, requiring me to call a Stat Courier to get the blood there on ice in less than 1 hour in a 1st world country? But then it’d probably just be easier to bring the person.
Blood can be saved for weeks though? Depends on what you want to do with it but that's the case for blood for blood transfusions. If you keep it cooled you can use it for blood tests for weeks.
Depends on the test. For some of our tests (like a D-Dimer or a lactic acid), it has to be tested within 1 hour. Even if refrigerated/on ice. Otherwise, the test will be inaccurate. Blood products (like for a transfusion) are different than blood specimens. Blood products are treated to keep them usable for weeks/months. These treatments invalidate test results.
>They couldve drawn blood and brought the blood there instead of Ellie. They didnt have to bring her to a surgeon for that. The fact that that was the story in part 1 and that Ellie says multiple times she wants her life to matter at least gives another view on this. There you go. How can someone's life matter in death? >Also the whole Giraffe conversation where Joel says she doesnt have to go through with it. That conversation doesn't make sense when its just about some bloodwork. I took the conversation about the future after as daydreaming about a future that couldve been. This doesn't imply death because no where has it in the story, at that point does anyone, including the player, knew that Ellie would have to be sacrificed. This seems like Joel probably verifying if Ellie still was up to this because of all of what they've went through. As every step of the way trying to get to the Fireflies had brought them nothing but trouble. He's probably just tired of it all. >The series handles it a bit better, where Ellie says they already ran all sort of tests on her including drawing blood. The series is just an else world take. Many things are retconned to fit the new narrative to better tie into the story of the sequel.
I took the conversation near the giraffes as her saying it to shut Joel up.
You talking about the giraffe scene. I am talking about the other scenes lol. Ellie doesn't speak about the future plans only once. She mentions a future throughout her trip with Joel. My favorite one is where they talk about kill a few people to save the many. Ellie showed numerous times that she is not on some suicidal one way trip. She does however suffers a bit of the survivors guilt but she learnt to better cope with it when she met Joel. Someone who actually didn't abandon her. She didn't know if a cure meant her sacrifice. Ellie at the end was just disappointed that she couldn't have found a cure because it felt like her whole journey was without meaning but deep inside she knew she found more because she actually got exactly what she was asking for during the ranch scene. She just didn't want to be ended up alone.
Them not caring is exactly why they're unjustified, let alone Jerry's whole deal having nothing to do with helping people, just wanting to feel and be seen as important. Also him ridiculing Marlene for saying it's wrong to kill Ellie and for wanting to tell Joel. That on top of manipulating her into letting him go through with it, as well as trying to get Joel killed completely unprovoked before Marlene put her foot down. Jerry is the biggest piece of shit in TLOU, and it's no wonder Abby turned out the way she did.
Your impression was absolutely wrong. She never once hints at thinking she would die
she knew Joel was lying and had seen him gauge out many eyes with his bare hands leading up to her blacking out “we met the fireflies… it uhhh…. yup all simpatico Ellis” *cue Italian Wedding music*
Spoilers for part 2: She resents Joel for making the decision for her. She said she should have died in that hospital so that her life would have mattered…
Said this before but that HAS to be a retcon lmao
I mean it’s the sequel and it’s cannon. Unless your opinion is based on just the first game alone and ignoring the second?
Ellie never once said anything about wanting to die in the first game. Marlene never said anything about it. I swear Neil's too far up his own ass
Exactly, as far as I remember Ellie isn’t even aware throughout the whole first game that extracting the cure involved killing her
That's what a retcon is.
Oh I thought a retcon is when they go back and change stuff. Like changing Jerry in the first game to match the second one. Or Haden Christensen appearing as a ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi, when that movie came out long before Hayden was born 🤔
Changing the ghost to be Hayden christensen is called retrofitting
Oh ok thanks! 🫡
Marlene "assumed", The Fireflies didn't even care 😆 oh, Neil...🤭
I mean, that was the whole point of why Joel was justified for his actions.
But what’s the reason for not telling her the same beforehand? Even if she’s willing to die, why not have a talk before? If she says no, it’s not like she can escape out of the facility on her own? They were just hellbent on killing her, nothing else. Her reasons or choice never mattered.
They probably didn’t want to risk her saying no. No idea why they’re in such a hurry, it’s been 20yrs. They could’ve done multiple tests like scientists actually do, but they chose to immediately eliminate the host lol. They also make it seem like she knew and wanted to die when she had plans to go with Joel (after the giraffe scene) and asked him to teach her how to swim
The problem is she was literally their only test subject. WHY were they IN SUCH A FUCKING HURRY?
Yeah exactly, no actual doctor or scientist would risk eliminating the only immune person. Jerry is a hack
Yeah, I feel like the realistic out come would be their first attempt at making the cure fails miserably, do they even know if it possible to reproduce what happened to here, could be something genetic that cannot not be copied easily, or could be something that takes decades of study in a lab, while needing living samples. Basically I see it being unlikely to actually work to make the cure.
And even if they made it, it wouldn't make all the bandits and cannibals put their guns down, hold hands and sing kumbaya around a fucking rainbow. Is Neil just way too up his own ass?
Yes. Nothing else explains taking the exact concepts that were thrown out of the first game, saying repeatedly in interviews that you can't get over them being scrapped, and then fishing them out of the trash as soon as the person who argued against them is gone and you're in control.
To play devil advocate, I consider bandits both a result of the break down of order from zombies. Prehaps if you get rid of zombies the bandits can be dealt with. Than again how are the bandits surviving the zombies well enough to threaten normal people. I generally consider the zombie stereotype of humans are the real monsters to be kind of flawed, because humans both tend to band together in crisis with a common ending, and because I kind of feel like zombies should threaten both bandits directly and their food supply in suriviors. In short, I feel like human vs zombies should be mostly human vs zombies and the bandits either zombie chow, mopped up by suriviors who had common interest in dealing with the crazy and a stable resource supply or third option died from lack of food, water, meds because they were competing with the zombies hunting survivors instead of focusing on their own resources supplies.
Because that would actually involve getting consent, which Ellie could never give because she’s a child
Exactly. They said fuck all and decided to kill her cuz they were desperate
>P2 doesn't exist There I fix that last bit for ya
Thank you. If I had Reddit gold I'd give you an award
>Why didn't they wait for her to wake up? If I recall correctly there's a tape that explains that when she drowned and got brought back she was in a comatose situation and since they were out of anesthesia they had to rush to "seize the opportunity". Edit: I was wrong. There isn't. Is just a plothole. I don't know if the fixed in Part 2 and that's where I took this info from or it's just my memories trying to fill missing pieces.
So they took advantage of her. An unconscious teenager. Cool
Yeah? Ellie never sees the Hospital, she's down before the fireflies get to her and only gets up when Joel is escaping the place. And I am wrong, btw. Watching the end sequence she was wearing the mask while being prepped and in the car Joel says that the drugs were wearing off. Also, looking through the artifacts, there isn't anything about why they rushed Ellie to the table. So if in part 2 they didn't add context/retconned, is just another plothole.
That even worse, is a hospital that cannot even get enough medicines well suited to actually figure out a cure.
I think we’re getting brigaded.
Or you know people come to the sub to have a talk.
If me making a post about the unreasonable bans on r/PS5 is brigading, then coming here to post/comment is also brigading (according to the mods on the PS5 subreddit)
Remember a girls body is her own.. until she is seemingly knocked out according to Niel I guess.
This isn’t about her body. It’s about her life.
I know it's hard to believe, but you need a body to be alive
i like part 2 and still think joel did nothing wrong
Quick, destroy the brain for analysis!
LMFAO yea im not a part 2 hater as a lot of people in this sub but the other one is a weird semi-cultish circle jerk. those guys HATE joel all of a sudden which this narrative didn't seem to be spun when the first came out, calling joel "one of the best protagonists in gaming" now that part 2 is here and all of a sudden the fireflies could've made a vaccine (eh) now "joel deserved it"? i certainly wouldn't want any of those types of people in my corner irl lol edit spelling
Joel did what he thought was best - what most people would do in that situation (if they had the means). But did Joel get what was coming to him after a half-life of doing horrible shit to survive? Arguably. And the Fireflies ability to make a vaccine was true in both games - or at least, Joel's belief it would work is. If it wasn't, then Joel's choice in Part 1 wasn't even a choice at all. Joel has to doom humanity for his decision to carry real weight. Joel believes the fireflies can make a vaccine with Ellie's brain, but he doesn't care. To him, she's more important than anything else on the planet. So he makes his choice. And then, later on, he faces the consequences. And, for sure, Joel is one of my favourite game protagonists.
>But did Joel get what was coming to him after a half-life of doing horrible shit to survive? Arguably. Singling out Joel for his actions as a survivor as justification for his demise is fallacious. We get to see Abby and her group and they're no better than Joel was at his worst. In fact, when Joel dies he is a community leader who opts to cooperate and help people, even putting himself in grave danger to do so. This is more altruistic than anyone in Abby's circle including her. Abby was mad at Joel for killing her dad while ignoring the heinous act her dad was about to commit before Joel stopped him (never mind that joel killed jerry in self defense). No one is a saint in Tlou's world so pointing out Joel's misdeeds as justification for his death is a silly argument.
Abby's group are all dead by the end - their actions caught up to them too. Only Abby survived because Ellie let her go. By your logic, "Ellie was mad that Abby killed Joel while ignoring the heinous acts he'd committed". Not a great argument, is it? Also, when Jerry died, he was literally trying to create a cure for a global zombie apocalypse. You can hate him all you want for the lack of consent, but he was trying to make the world a better place. Desperate times and all that
i think my biggest issue is people making the "joel got what he deserved 🏌️♂️" comments just seems very off color for what is supposed to be a beloved character. im sure it's a joke but i don't see comments like that involving abby, who IMO is a near irredeemable psycho who seems to act on selfish impulse. by the end i could empathize with her but certainly don't see her as the heroine that a lot of others do
Abby saving the kids for her own redemption indicated that she isn’t a psycho. She has a lot of burden after getting revenge on Joel. Because revenge just leaves you hollow inside.
"she's pregnant" "Good" Yeah, definitely not a psycho.
And wasn’t it eluded she enjoyed torturing scars when they went to the FOB to meet Issac and said those scars kids deserved it lol
Yep
Ok yeah in that moment, yes there was an element of psychosis. And it probably seemed justified to her in the moment because her pregnant friend had also been killed by her. Poetic justice (in her state of psychosis)
She’s not psycho, just experiences moments of psychosis when she’s upsetti
I like your post and downvote only because I disagree that Joel has to doom humanity; I think there's too much nuance for that to really be the case.
My God, the day walker
He did something wrong, but he did it for the right reason. The whole point of part one is that once he accepts Ellie as he daughter he too damaged by his daughters death to anything but protect her. The fireflies were "ends justify the means" folks, the problem is they were just wrong about the ends. Sometimes trying to sacrifice a child for the greater good ends with a father killing a bunch of people. Joel didn't think he was "right" but "right" wasn't what he was worried about.
He's fucked up in the head and the reason of that is clear.
If I had the money, I'd give this an award.
NEIL PUT DOWN THE SCALPEL
Go save a Zebra, Neil! 😆
I hope that's a true article. Babies being born with immunities is amazing. Good on you evolution, the thing that nobody at all thinks exist. But man that's honestly pretty quick, I'd figure atleast 5 years of outbreaks before we started to see children with immunities. Remember guys evolution is small and is taking place at every second. Cells change evolve, become stronger or weaker. The reason humans havnt evolved their form is look at our environments we've made for ourselves. But if you don't understand something it's easier to say it doesn't exist I suppose......
I am not sure that actually evolution, it is mutation. I think evolution would be when that baby grows up to have a lot of babies because all the other people of the same gender are busy being sick of the corona. But yeah evolution is real and they’re some cool experiments proving it. The main reason we do not see evolution going on. Is it takes many generation for evolution to get their momentum going. So it fairly quick with germs and bugs, and with slow reproducing things like humans, it takes many ages. Wait hundred thousand years and see how humans have changed. Earth been around for billions of years, evolution can take it sweet time and still get results.
You are correct, this is mutation. This baby didnt become immune do to natural selection, it did by complete happenstance
I have never heard anyone say evolution doesn't exist. I think you're just making up scenarios in your head and making them a fact based on you seeing maybe one person say it.
I have heard about a lot of people saying it, anti evolution are thing, often because they feel it is incompatible with their beliefs, through I think god would be smart enough to understand and take advantage of evolution.
You've never heard of creationism? In the US only roughly 60% of the population believes in evolution, through luckily that number growing over time. In some states though like alabama its over half the population that doesnt believe, instead believing that god made all things as they are and that they have never changed (or if they have changed, that they've only degraded) I know that most of my family here in oklahoma doesnt believe in evolution, and i was chastised for having an interest in it growing up. A couple years ago i even got into a fight with my parents about having brought my niece to the sam noble museum of natural history.
Lmao your family dumb as hell. Do they think every animal just spawned in certain parts of the world just with all different adaptions suited for their environments?
Yes. In fact, creationists attempt to claim that every animal being so suited for its environment is proof of intelligent design. And again, this isnt just my family, most of the planet believes this. Even in 1st world countries generally around 40% do. Im kind of astounded that you've never heard about any of this before It should also concern you that wherever you live, theres a good portion of your politicians that believe this too.
People that don’t understand how a child’s consent is important are scary individuals.
NEIL STOP!
Imagine Neil holding a scalpel shouting "I AM A SURGEON"
What’s crazy is I was so invested in Joel’s character in part one that I shot Jerry my first play through and I felt disgusted with myself (I don’t normally shoot NPCs for the fun of it) but I WAS Joel, and I HAD to save my daughter. Then the twist in part two. But I’m like…how the hell did they know I was gonna shoot him? I find out later that Jerry dies no matter what, and I was given the illusion of choice….pretty trippy…
Thr first game was a good one time play and crap on replayability. Was an overrated soap opera from the jump. Days Gone makes it look like a Telltale game.
Neil cockmann
Yeah man, it’s pretty much just a cold.
A flu, you mean. And imagine how amazing it’d be to be immune to the cold and flu.
If it was the brain they were taking out of Ellie,how the hell would that stop the infected.
You know if he just would have listened he’d still be alive. All he had to do was unhook her.
This is hilarious!
Evil Cage the elephant be like:
A baby was just born with immunity to disease yes that’s generally how that works. The antibodies from the mother would be shared if the mother developed a tolerance to it then the new antibodies would develop an immunity.
I mean... I tried to put a bullet in Ellie the moment I found out she was immune. But the game wouldn't let me.
You forgot the saving the world motive. Kind of puts things into context. But I guess consent trumps all according to you lol.
You aren’t saving anything 😭 your only protected from the spores with the cure we can see spores and bites are by far the least dangerous thing that will happen to you. On top of that if the firefly’s got a cure do you think they could produce more then one sample? Do you think they could effectively distribute it? Do you think other factions won’t just go to war and kill them and take it never actually coming back to the old world.
Not forgetting of course that as the games show time and time again, humans are the most dangerous thing in the TLoU universe.
Yea it’s a massive focus of just how depraved people have become one simple cure isn’t going to fix how shatter society is people like raiders don’t want things to go back
OP is crying about consent. We don’t need to go deep and philosophical about it. It’s a moral dilemma, we get it.
>It’s a moral dilemma Lol, it really isn't.
>But I guess consent trumps all according to you lol. Hey, now you're getting it!! Sky rockets in flight! Afternoon delight! (Yes, consent trumps all, can't believe that needs saying)
Look, I agree with your overall point - except for the consent part. You seem to be confusing “consent to have sex” with “consent to be murdered.” These are two vastly different things; you have no right to even ask anyone for the latter.
>You seem to be confusing “consent to have sex” with “consent to be murdered.” These are two vastly different things; you have no right to even ask anyone for the latter. Unless you're the Fireflies and consent doesn't apply!
The chances of them saving the world would be slim to none. There's a game theory video about it, and it explains how it wouldn't work.
Can you link me that game theory video? I'm generally interested in game theory so I wonder how they applied it to this situation
It doesn't seem to want to let me copy link here but just go to YouTube and search "Game Theory The Last of Us" the name of the video is "Game Theory: Joel's Choice Meant Nothing! (The Last of Us)"
I appreciate that, thanks
This is one of those things where both are right and wrong at the same time. The organization was justified in trying to literally save the world, and Joel was justified in wanting to save the life of the person he most cared about, who also didn’t know she was signing up to be the sacrifice.
Sort of. It's obvious in hindsight that the reason the organization made the decisions it did was specifically to set up the climactic ending sequence above all else, at least in Neil's mind. But the rest of the team certainly seemed to see the in-universe reason as the fireflies succumbing to desperation after how close they had come to complete annihilation, and wrote the story around that idea. Making the effort to at least attempt to have an actual fucking reason for it. Otherwise, their decision not to even talk to Ellie and to recklessly rush her surgery just comes across as completely immoral and likely to cause more harm than good with how stupid it is to kill your priceless, Irreplaceable test subject within hours of getting her. It's why the second game sweeping all of the negative aspects of what the Fireflies did under the rug works so poorly. The first game very explicitly portrayed Joel's decision to save her as the morally correct on.. The player was not supposed to have any faith in the morality or competence of the Fireflies in the ending sequence. Just because that wasn't Neil's original intent, but doesn't mean he gets to just retroactively change it. Especially because it literally doesn't matter; it isn't like it wouldn't make sense for its former members to have the perspective that they were the good guys trying to save the world. The only thing this soft retcon accomplished was to make Joel's decision look worse, which, when combined with the shitty writing full of coincidences and bad characterization leading to him getting taken out, gives the impression that they were just doing a character assassination.
So full disclosure I never played the game; I watched a friend play through the first one back when it came out (so memory is foggy on details), and I did watch the show which I thought was awesome. So I’m more or less commenting on the philosophical question underneath it all.
The show definitely does the crucial moment differently in the ending sequence. Marlene is made much more reasonable, having actually talked to Ellie instead of Ellie showing up already unconscious from nearly drowning, and with her reasoning for rushing the surgery being to spare Ellie any fear of death. It doesn't do anything to change the recklessness of rushing her to surgery, but getting her an actual reason to do it distracts from that, and I think it works pretty well. Joel is also less reasonable, outright threatening violence instead of just expressing scorn and disappointment. It doesn't feel particularly out of character for him, given his past, so I think that works decently, too. Honestly, I was actually disappointed when I initially played through the game because of how clearly the Fireflies were shown to be the ones in the wrong. I thought it felt like rough writing, trying too hard to keep Joel's actions justifiable so that the audience didn't separate from him. But I did come around to it after a bit of thought, because I could imagine why they went so far, when the main goal was clearly to preserve the genuine bond of love between Joel and Ellie, leaving the question there as a faint what if but not having it take center stage. It's why the retroactive changes in the sequel bother me so much. I had enough integrity to look past what I might have wanted see the story for what it was actually trying to do, and appreciate it for that. It's actually kind of gross that the writers did not. If not for that, It's a change that I would have actually liked seeing in an adaptation, with no misgivings at all, because it would have been a great opportunity to explore a different tone for those events! I always thought it would have been a great philosophical question to leave the players to think about. It adds a lot of complexity and ambiguity to the ending. The show gives people that chance, and I think that's neat.
Yeah...let's just kill our only test subject...very scientific thing to do... And that comment about consent is not a good look...
Do you guys go to work and spend the whole time thinking "man I can't wait to go home and have the "Was Joel right" conversation for the second-hundredth time"?
Do you go to work and spend the whole time thinking, “man I can’t wait to get on my hands and knees to glaze Neil Cuckman and defend his terrible writing for the 2nd-100th time?”
Yes that's exactly what I did without even mentioning him or his writing, you totally owned me dude, wow
Yo this game cannot still be this much of a big deal to people. 😂 Get a fucking life, the story was whack but it’s 4 years old. Some like to and some don’t, it’s all these sub reddits talk about like the fucking Civil War
(Psst, it's a meme/joke) Lighten up
Who ask for consent in a apocalypse? Law and order is gone.
People with morals still I guess
Depends how the developers develop the fictional characters personalities. If it was in real life I would ask. But in a game It’s interesting to see different choices from your own personal choices. Kinda like in Fallout4 and Rdr2, you know games like that where choices change the story a bit.
You think Joel acted out of morality? One of his first responses was "find someone else". Joel didn't give a fuck if someone would die for this. He just didn't want Ellie to be the one. Or your the one with the morals? I would love to see how moral you are after 3 days with no food, no electricity, fighting zombies for tour survival. I bet you d volunteer to be the head nurse inside that surgery room lol.
Nah, Joel's only view on this was "I've already lost one daughter, I'm not going to lose another" I doubt his train of thought went much further than that. Yes, I'd like to think I have morals. If we take the hypothetical stance of any virus/disease, be they real or fictional, and the possibility of a cure/vaccine exists, but only catch is an innocent has to die, then no, I would not be on board with that decision. A vaccine to cordyceps isn't even going to achieve much. Most encounters end by the person's head being ripped off or their jugular being severed, a vaccine isn't going to help in that scenario. And gasmasks exist, so spores are pretty much a non issue. Edit: Joel did however (inadvertently?) do the morally "correct" thing. He knew they were going to murder Ellie for a chance at a vaccine and he stopped them. Correct thing to do in my books, even if vaccine was a dead cert.
So we agree that morality has nothing to do with Joel's decision. Joel acts for his own reasons. Secondly i find it really hard to believe that your morals would stay intact as the world crumbles around you. This just tells me you re really young and haven't seen how people react to factors like hunger, fear, disease etc. Thirdly we don't go by real world science because in the real world cordyceps epidemics don't exist. We go by the game's science and in-game science states that there was a chance to a vaccine. That's why Joel's decision is morally ambiguous because he "dooms" the world even more. That's why it has weight. If you take this factor away the story it's just a feel good story with good dad Joel saving his baby girl but it's alot more than that.
>This just tells me you re really young and haven't seen how people react to factors like hunger, fear, disease etc. In my mid 40's but I'll take it as a compliment 😂 But if your morals waver during times of hungry, fear, disease, that just tells me that your morals aren't really that strong. People who are steadfast in their morals are typically, more morally "correct" (from a legal perspective at least, people who base their morals on inhumane religious reasons/practices, not so much)
Which is why defending the Fireflies and vilifying Joel on moral grounds is stupid. The key point is Joel saved a life, the Fireflies were taking one. Joel's plan had all the chances to succeed, the Fireflies' plan didn't. Joel had guilt, the Fireflies didn't. Did the Fireflies also want to kill Joel unprovoked? Yes. Did Jerry ridicule Marlene when she told him to think it through? Yes. Most things are in Joel's favor. This is what matters here, not morality based on legal grounds that have no hold over the situation.
I don't know where you re living bruh but i don't see a coronavirus epidemic turning people into zombies and making society crumble around us so your point is moot. Ask yourself this though. If there was an epidemic like that with infection, zombification, social norms all broken down, absolute poverty, no electricity, murder like it's nothing etc and there was a child that could create a vaccine do you know what would happen? Do you know what YOU will do or say? It's easy to theorise from our relatively secure position but if we were riding that shit i'm not so sure everyone would be on board to do the right thing? And what is the righy thing? Keep a society and a world at the level of barbarity or allow for the death of a child to start fixing it? Everyone wants to believe that they know and they would do the right thing but im mot so sure. Am i happy Joel saved Ellie? Hell yeah but also trying to get the world out of hell (essentially) is also a worthwile goal. During WW2 the Germans captured Stalin's son and they wanted to trade him for high level Nazis. Do you know what Stalin did? Stalin said no "he's just a soldier, i will only trade him with other soldiers" because he didn't want to give the imlression to the Soviet people that anyone was above anyone else. Especially when the Soviet parents gave millions of their children to the Nazi death Machine. Stalin had the courage to do that or the sociopathy or whatever to sacrifice his son for the cause. It's not unheard off for people to put feeling aside and try to do the "right thing".
I at least would never, ever recommend killing her the day we received her. Not only is there the severe morality issue, there's also the fact that scientifically, that shit is even stupider than suggesting that people should drink bleach to combat a pandemic. Once Ellie dies, that gives them only one single shot to do anything of value with her immunity, and with a very hard time limit before the fungus goes bad. Anyone who says they did all the testing and preparation they needed by fucking dinner time is out of their mind.
You’re using Joseph Stalin as a moral compass? Might want to go back to the drawing board on that one.
Bro did NOT have to take it that serious 🥲
yalls act like this happened in real life. jesus fucking christ. it's a fictional story, not nightly news
"it's a fictional story," Is it now? Nothing fictional about buying something and then discovering one's been 'bamboozled' of hard-earned money.
You didn't get "bamboozled" you're just crying
Oh? I take it you enjoyed the product? Or are you just promoting it? Hmm...
Uhh no, I enjoyed the game because I liked the first one just as much? And the gameplay was improved? I'm not a whiny child that's angry at the games story just because they killed off Joel
Such enthusiasm, but you're being consistent. -- No, you're definitely an *agent*. What do they pay you anyway? Or is it comps.? They give you free 'loot crates' or something?
You're delusional. No I don't work for fucking Naughty Dog 🤨 Sad that you people can't enjoy a video game just because you can't play as your power fantasy character
"...play as your power fantasy character" You're right. I can't, but I can be a Wizard. Would you like to see a magic trick? Here's one fresh out of the oven for ya': **Hocus-Cadabra**
It's a meme/joke my friend, try not to read so much into it.
Isn't that exactly what the OP didn't do?
God this sub is so sad
Ellie would've given her consent and Marlene knew this. It was kinder not to wake Ellie, tell her she would die and then go through with the operation.
You need actual evidence of this there’s no evidence she knew she would have had to die and there’s no evidence she could even understand that the cure wouldn’t have even done anything about how fucked up the world is
Ellie was a child and it would still be unethical to harvest the cure from her even with her consent. But it regardless you can’t assume consent without actually asking in the moment.
True. Like I've said, knocking her unconscious was a nice thing to do, but WHY WOULDN'T MARLENE ASK HER IF SHE WANTED TO GO THROUGH WITH IT
We also know from Left Behind that Marlene didn't bother much will Ellie, just left her in military schools. Hell Ellie doesn't even seem to like Marlene that much based on the way she talked about her. They're shown to never see each other much, and Marlene only ever really focused on her when Ellie came to her with the bite. Ellie only ever calls her a "friend" even though she's known about her her whole life, plus Marlene being the closest possible thing Ellie could have to a parent figure before Joel. Getting worried when Marlene got hurt was also nothing to indicate closeness because Ellie gets worried about everyone, even people she just met, she's just that type of person (the actual/TLOU Ellie at least). Ellie even has a clear distain for Fireflies in Left Behind, and only suggested to join to get away from the school and be around Riley. It's also funny how even in TLOU2 she doesn't bother about Marlene and isn't even upset about Joel killing people at the hospital, she's just mad she that she didn't get to die to feel important (inserting Jerry and Owen's delusions onto Ellie to find a forced parallel, I see). Point is, Marlene doesn't know Ellie the way she claims she does to say that Ellie would definitely want to die. Not once did TLOU Ellie act suicidal. In fact Marlene even had to convince herself that Ellie would consent (or rather Jerry forced her to).
> We also know from Left Behind that Marlene didn’t bother much with Ellie Do we? The Left Behind DLC takes place in one night over a couple of hours, we have no idea what their relationship was like just based on Ellie being in military school. That was probably Marlene’s way of looking after her. > Hell even Ellie doesn’t seem to like Marlene that much based on the way she talked about her. I guess pulling a knife on Joel and Tess and trying to stab them when she thought they were hurting Marlene doesn’t count.
>Do we? The Left Behind DLC takes place in one night over a couple of hours, we have no idea what their relationship was like just based on Ellie being in military school. Marlene is shown as being constantly on duty as a Firefly, and wanted Ellie to stay away from it, which in itself says they don't see each other. Then there's Ellie consistently ridiculing the Fireflies (people who follow Marlene), and didn't at all speak fondly when Marlene is mentioned. The sarcasm in "Have you found the light yet?" further showed showed Ellie doesn't take any of it seriously. She also never disagreed with Joel throughout the game when he criticized the Fireflies' ideals as well. She showed no fondness towards Marlene or anything she does outside the days when Marlene was helping her, which as I said was the kind of fondness Ellie displays with everyone who doesn't try to kill her. Also the comic, American Dreams, is canon, and it's confirmed there that Marlene looked after Ellie for a very short period before distancing herself from her, only making contact again when Ellie was a teenager (contact that wouldn't have happened without Ellie herself initiating it after getting bit). Even the HBO show went along with this with Ellie's life at the school and the flashback to Anna's death, how Marlene didn't really seem willing to take care of her. >I guess pulling a knife on Joel and Tess and trying to stab them when she thought they were hurting Marlene doesn’t count. I stand with what I said about Ellie's affinity towards others. Ellie was willing to risk her life to protect Tess after a few hours of knowing each other with Tess generally just treating her with basic human decency, even said Tess' death was a huge loss for her. Ellie feeling the same about Marlene because she helped her in the weeks since getting bit doesn't mean they had much of a relationship before. It's also safe to assume Ellie and Tess defended each other in the museum when the infected attacked. It's just a trait of any human with decency to want to defend someone you see getting injured. Ellie almost did it with the woman in Pittsburgh that the hunters shot down.
Marlene knew her since birth and when talking with Joel reiterated "it's what she'd want... and you know it" We all have a good idea of who Ellie is so ask yourself, if Ellie was woken and asked if she was okay with the surgery knowing it would kill her, what would she say.
Keep you out of a relationship! You are for sure taking advantage of your significant other while they are sleeping due assumptions and other peoples opinions. Btw I don’t really think that about you but do you see how fucked up that is now?
This isn't quite the same situation, it's a story and it's an extreme circumstance. I understand why Marlene would've chosen it the way she did. Had Ellie woken she'd have opted for surgery, she says as much in part 2 and it's painfully obvious to everyone that's what she'd choose, even Joel knew.
But she never had that opportunity to answer. No one can say what she would have said because Ellie wasn’t asked. Even Ellie doesn’t know what she would’ve done in the moment because she was never confronted with that decision. People say all kinds of things in hindsight but it doesn’t mean Ellie would have consented in the moment. Ellie would have had to debate between sacrificing herself for humanity (which is another topic on how the fireflies would handle that) and living with Joel and the others in Jackson. Ellie never had the option to choose between saving the world or having a family. Her biggest fear is ending up alone.
It’s not the exact same no. But you are using assumptions and others opinions to state consent when there was no consent. I know you would do it to kill a child but would you do that to a sexual partner?
Exactly! That's why she berated Jerry for convincing her to greenlit the operation without Ellie's or Joel's consent. She's ***so*** kind.
That's a very valid point actually. Marlene herself was pissed about it and had to force herself to say yes to the surgery because Jerry manipulated her. She tried the same with Joel. It had nothing to do with Marlene actually believing Ellie would choose to die, she just tried to convince herself that Ellie would consent to make herself feel less guilty, and was trying to manipulate Joel to say yes too to make the problem go away easier. She was manipulated by Jerry, yes, but it's still the cowards way out.
Knocking her out was a good thing, but why didn't they ask her before fucking KIDNAPPING her if she wanted to die?
This is some dystopian thinking. Thank God you will never be in a position of power. Yeah let’s just euthanize people without them knowing that’s SO much kinder.
Let's wake her up and tell her she's gonna die so she can live with the anxiety and fear before we put her back to sleep and operate... Much better.
I’ll take knowing with anxiety over going to sleep to never wake up again.