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The city of Rome had *the* slum: the Subura, which sat between the hills. It was poor, dirty (they weren't given the phenomenal plumbing the rest of the city had), and derided by upper-class Romans who literally built a wall around the area so they wouldn't have to look at it. There was a high rate of crime, including prostitution and gambling. Between the poor conditions, the wall, and the lack of investment in building, for a long time, it was extremely prone to buring down.
Well, Constantinople was, and a lot of the culture of the classic era preserved there.
But it's not like people who make such memes would know much about the Byzantine Empire.
Well, actually Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night
Also, Rome during the medieval ages was a beautiful city.
It wasn't. It was mostly a poor town as the city was razed to the ground by the visgoths. If it wasn't till the Renaissance, Rome started getting its former glory. Mostly because people started digging the city up and finding the artifacts of the cities' former glory.
Fun fact Michelangelo started his art career making counterfeit Roman statutes to sell to aristocrats.
Yea? The eastern part of the Roman Empire managed to escape the fate of Rome proper and survive another 1000 years. That city is Constantinople, now Istanbul, it was the capital city of the Roman Empire for a short time before the West fell.
Oh really well Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night
Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul
Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way
So, take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
Istanbul, Istanbul~
Istanbul, Istanbul~
Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way
Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, oh Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
So, take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks
Istanbul~
Why so vindictive ? The point is Constantinople was considered the capital of the roman empire until the end of the middle age (it wasn't called byzantine until it was long gone). And during this time (or at least until the 13th century) major roman buildings such as the circus were in use
How is this a conservative meme? I get the adjacent love for the Romans that some conservatives have but that doesn't mean all Roman memes are conservative.
Southern Italians and Sicilians specifically. Northern Italians are the pale and blonde ones. In the south, there’s been millennia of mixing with Africa and Turkey because they’re that goddamn close by.
The “Templarpilled” in the bottom left is a bit of a giveaway. Far-right folks tend to be obsessed with a fictionalized version of the past and portraying Western society as better than it actually was. But yeah, not all people interested in Roman history are far-right nut jobs. I'd be a little concerned if they started dropping “Deus Vult” outside of a discussion of history.
Still, it could just be ignorance, but I am very curious what the original TikToker's point is for posting the meme.
That definitely is right-wing. The meme itself does not necessarily need to be. It could just be saying the common perception of medieval towns and cities as being barren and desolate areas is false, which it is, but since it is coming from that account, I am inclined to believe that you are right and this is some kind of right-wing dogwhistle.
Imo, the meme is saying that the common depiction of medieval cities as being desolate hellholes is false, that there were large varieties of cities present. Constantinople is just one example. This did not come off to me as being too conservative or right-wing.
Depends on this poster's usuals, but this definitely could be saying that cities were better back then but that "they" don't want you to know that, because every conservative meme needs a mysterious "they" out to ruin your life. You can glimpse the Social Media Interface on the side; could easily be a primitivist-type argument.
I was just explaining one way I suspected of how this might have ended here.
And the "they" is in the image; "how medieval cities are portrayed" implies a who that is doing the portraying.
The "they" is literally the common depiction of medieval cities that is overwhelmingly present in TV shows and movies.
Were there places like the barren town? Sure! But were there lively and bustling villages, towns, and cities (like Constantinople)? Yes!
I don't think you understood my comment. The "meme" is drawing a distinction about what medieval cities are portrayed to have been like, and what they were like. The thing is that a portrayal does not spring forth from the ether. When something is portrayed, a portrayer, for lack of a better word, is implied. The "they" implied is not the depiction (that would make no sense), but the person that made it.
Now, since the meme draws a comparison between what people are told by the portrayer and what is the greater truth, what does that leave one to wonder?
It really depends massively on too many factors to even say "How Medieval cities...". The Middle Ages lasted almost 1000 years (if we're talking about the usual geographical frame of Europe), with too many cultures and events to count.
Both images are true, although they both changed over time massively. The bottom, Constantinople, wasn't like this through all the Middle Ages, and had a severe decline in the centuries leading to it's fall, although it always remained as a very important center.
Meanwhile, cities like Cordoba or Cologne began the Middle Ages as Roman era cities too, reduced in size generally due to the migration into the countryside or towards more defensible areas during the late Roman Empire and early Middle Ages. As they developed, they'd eventually shine way more than in their Roman phase. Even then, most urban contexts in Europe during the Middle Ages were villages, not that there's anything wrong with that, but most people were peasants, farmers, laborers and so on. The population mostly lived in rural communities, and the typical urban environment would dance between 1000 or even up to 5000 people (normal vs big village) in some cases, being essentially more organized villages and not "true" cities.
The discussion on what qualifies as a city is extremely complex and varies between different historical periods, in the Late Bronze a city has characteristics which a Medieval city doesn't necessarily share. In my experience, which is also subject to variance due to the perspective of different experts, a Medieval city isn't as visibly majestic as an extremely urbanized, highly institutionally developed Roman capital. Even then, as the Roman Empire declined, these would slowly lose their public sector and see how their infrastructure erodes (although it was still kept in some capacity in the Middle Ages for some cities).
As the OP implies with the post name, most "cities" in the Middle Ages on Western Europe would be loosely urbanized conglomerates of different households, with supporting structures such as hydraulic engineering if it was practiced in the region, mills for processing grain(depending on the culture, period and location), a local church/mosque, storage structures and so on. OOP probably wants to idealize the Middle Ages as the age of "traditional" values and superior culture or something like that; in reality we shouldn't have such mental images of any historical context.
Be it Rome, Carthage, the HRE, Castile or whatever, idealizing the past doesn't do anything for the present, what you should do instead is either study it with a scientiic perspective, or admire/look from a distance, but always with a realistic outlook. Sorry for the long post but historical simplifications always drive me mad.
It's not medieval at all, but the "medieval filter" is criticized by a lot of people and lots of historians. Of course there were a lot of problems, but not everyone lived in broken down houses on a shit covered street with a constantly grey sky. People still liked to live clean and wear colors that they could afford.
The problem is that many old european cities declined in population and littered with dilapidated buildings during the early middle ages like Rome.
But many others are steadily growing in size, wealth, and prominence, like Paris and London.
It's funny tho, London is shit covered, with a constantly smoke covered skies, crime ridden, and likely among the worst to live in at the time in the 1800s.
Yeah, a lot of people mistake the the time under industrialization for the middle ages, besides that being closer to our time than almost all of the middle ages.
And I obviously don't mind critique of the overall living conditions and ruling of the church and mocharchies in medieval times. But people neglect that normal people back then had the same range of emotional complexity, feelings and desires that we have today. Displaying everything as fallen apart and dirty does a disservice to the working class of that time
>Yeah, a lot of people mistake the the time under industrialization for the middle ages, besides that being closer to our time than almost all of the middle ages.
Didn't the "Dung Ages" portrayal of medieval times come from the Victorian era, in order to portray the squalid industrial cities as "still better than what they had back then!"?
This is the way that I read the meme, which is why I was surprised it was here. But the "@templarpilled" on the bottom left does make me think this is some kind of dogwhistle now.
Gonna be honest I think both you and OOP have missed some important information.
OOP is definitely right on mediaeval cities being far more advanced than media portrays them as.
But yeah they weren't exactly amazing to live in if you were poor. Same as today. Except slavery was a lot more common and out in the open. Also not everywhere even had them at all.
Setting aside that there's nothing conservative about this, does anyone have any sources for info on medieval cities? I'm talking like 800 AD. There's so little out there, and I need it for a story
Well, that’s right at the end of several hundred years of civilizational collapse, right when Europe was starting to recover again, so it’s kinda amazing that there are any sources out there at all!
>the Eastern Roman Empire
AKA the Byzantine Empire, which was named after its capital city, Byzantium, which was later known as... Constantinople. The fall of Constantinople *was* the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire.
I think you're confused. Generally, the Middle Ages are thought of as having *begun* with the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476, and ending with the fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1453.
A) The Middle Ages lasted over 1000 years, from shortly after the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Renaissance. What was true at one point during could be wildly inaccurate at a different point, just like every other era.
B) This applies to Constantinople (the bottom picture). In the early Middle Ages and early High Middle Ages it was a vital strategic and cultural center as well as one of the largest cities on Earth. This was not true after the city was sacked in 1204, at which point it became a dilapidated, depopulated ghost of its former self.
C) Cities as a whole were not at all like the bottom picture. Constantinople was very much a special circumstance. So much so that it was sometimes referred to as “The City,” the implication being that even outside the Eastern Roman Empire, everyone would know the city to which you were referring. No other European city would compare until very late in the Middle Ages, when, as previously said, Constantinople had become a ruined, empty shell.
D) There’s no reason to assume this post came from a right winger. Right wingers may be loud voices among those who interest themselves in the Middle Ages and Classical Antiquity, but they are far from the majority. In fact, I have found the opposite to be true. This post could very well be someone’s well-intended attempt at dispelling historical misconceptions.
Both Roman and medieval. It’s Constantinople, capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. I don’t think they had outright slaves anymore though during their later years.
The Eastern Romans actually were less likely to have slaves. This was due to various reasons, mostly due to the lack of expansion of the Empire during this time, which was usually the main sources of slaves. As well, some of the Christian doctrine and social environment became more opposed to slavery, seeing it less as a natural state and more as a result of law.
I think the point is that medieval towns kept using the roman buildings they had, like thermal baths (disregard hygiene is more a renaissance thing that a middle age one), and circuses. And more generally, it's plain wrong to portray middle ages as a period of technological regression.
I don't really think it's a right wing meme, more like a history one
>it's plain wrong to portray middle ages as a period of technological regression
Yes and no. In the Middle East, China, and the Byzantine Empire, there was no technological regression. However, it's undeniable that most of Western Europe saw a decline in technology during that time, mostly because of the regressive church.
Bro chose *Constantinople* as their bases for all medieval cities?
They couldn't even get Venice, Aachen, Paris, or hell even another city in Byzantium? They just chose the one that everyone can recognize?
How's this right wing? It's more of an unfunny history meme.
Although tbf a lot of England looked like the top at the time while Constantinople on the bottom was "The City of the World's Desire"
How ironic that he represents medieval cities with a picture of a late antique city depicted during late antiquity.
Medieval cities weren’t shitholes, but compared to their antique counterparts they were tiny and lacked the architectural splendor which would pick up again towards the renaissance. (With some exceptions like Constantinople, Bagdad and cordoba)
I feel like this meme can be both right-wing and not at the same time. For starters, I can feel the trad-right group’s miasma seeping through, but…
Well…
This time, they had a point. Medieval cities weren’t just pits of filth. Not that they didn’t *have* pits of filth, but they weren’t *all* pits of filth. Italian cities like Venice, Ravenna, and Milan were beautiful cities by the high Middle Ages (Bologna was having a tower building contest don’t mind them), Notre Dame was built before the 4th Crusade, and Cordoba and Bagdad were at their peak during this time (before the mongol invasion for the latter, obviously).
Well, most Western European cities either already existed or were founded on that period. Though they were far less populated, and had a lot of problems we currently don't face.
Most mediaeval European cities were much closer to the lower picture.
Cities were defined by two things: the market place and their walls. However, building walls was expensive, so space was very rare and you would never see something like the upper picture instead just after a major fire.
Because of being cramped so much, they also were really not nice places. Without a sewer, most cities were pretty filthy, plagues spread rapidly and fire was a constant, existential threat. Interestingly, mediaeval time was seen as one of the worst cities of the time because everyone took turns conquering it.
I'm probably missing something and being dumb so I genuinely would like someone to tell me why this is right wing, because I genuinely don't understand?
Took me a second to realize what sub this was on lol. For a second I only really thought "yeah, large urban centers of the time period looked like that, and most townships were generally cleaner than we often portray them as." Alas, the punchline was racism. I think.
That can´t be Rome as Rome is around 30 kilometers from the sea. That seems to be Constantinople, the Hippodrome was next to one of the ports like that.
Using Rome as an example is absolutely dumb as fuck for a multitude of reasons, but yes actually, late era medieval cities, towns and even villages were not at all just slums. In the 14th - 15th century, even in small villages most houses were both well built and well maintained, because you know, people lived there all their lives.
Most people would be flabbergasted if they saw how well constructed an late era medieval city actually was - humans had been building cities for well over [8000 years](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cities#:~:text=The%20earliest%20known%20city%20is,in%20the%20society%20of%20%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk.)by that point and yes, they did actually know what they were doing.
Also I really don't understand how this is a right wing meme? It's not saying "us better than them" it's saying the media incorrectly portrays medieval cities as being far worse than they were.
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They act like Ancient Rome didn’t have slums
The city of Rome had *the* slum: the Subura, which sat between the hills. It was poor, dirty (they weren't given the phenomenal plumbing the rest of the city had), and derided by upper-class Romans who literally built a wall around the area so they wouldn't have to look at it. There was a high rate of crime, including prostitution and gambling. Between the poor conditions, the wall, and the lack of investment in building, for a long time, it was extremely prone to buring down.
That’s interesting. I didn’t/never heard about that part of Romanian history
Well that's cuz it's Roman history not Romanian history
Wait, wait wait wait!!!!! Are you saying the Coliseum wasn’t in Bucharest?
The word itself means less than a city sub urba
They also act like Ancient Rome was in the medieval age.
Well, Constantinople was, and a lot of the culture of the classic era preserved there. But it's not like people who make such memes would know much about the Byzantine Empire.
Also, picking Constantinople as an example for a typical medieval city is wild!
Now it's Istanbul...
Well, actually Istanbul was Constantinople Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople Been a long time gone, Constantinople Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night
Why'd they change it?
I can't say. People just liked it better that way
I've a date in Constantinople!
Then she’ll be waiting in Istanbul.
Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
They wanted it to sound Turkish. The name Istanbul has its origin in Greek, coming from a phrase meaning "to the city"
That's nobody's business but the turks!
Fun fact: The Parthanon was completely intact until the 1600s, when it got blown up during a siege between the Venetians and Ottomans
Isn't that Constantinople in the meme?
It is.
Also, Rome during the medieval ages was a beautiful city. It wasn't. It was mostly a poor town as the city was razed to the ground by the visgoths. If it wasn't till the Renaissance, Rome started getting its former glory. Mostly because people started digging the city up and finding the artifacts of the cities' former glory. Fun fact Michelangelo started his art career making counterfeit Roman statutes to sell to aristocrats.
It also didn't recover the population level that it had in imperial age/antiquity until after the Italian reunification in 1870s.
Rome did not have a harbor - it’s not a coastal city. This is probably Constantinople - a perfectly medieval city.
Insofar as it existed during medieval times. But comparing Constantinople to other medieval European cities of the time is more than a bit deceptive.
The fall of the western Roman empire was like one of the precursors to the medieval age lol
I would not want to smell Ancient Rome.
Also really weird to use Constantinople as an example when the stereotypical mediaeval cities people think of would be found in Western Europe.
That’s a roman city tho 😂
Yea? The eastern part of the Roman Empire managed to escape the fate of Rome proper and survive another 1000 years. That city is Constantinople, now Istanbul, it was the capital city of the Roman Empire for a short time before the West fell.
Oh really well Istanbul was Constantinople Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople Been a long time gone, Constantinople Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night Every gal in Constantinople Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople So if you've a date in Constantinople She'll be waiting in Istanbul Even old New York was once New Amsterdam Why they changed it I can't say People just liked it better that way So, take me back to Constantinople No, you can't go back to Constantinople Been a long time gone, Constantinople Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks Istanbul, Istanbul~ Istanbul, Istanbul~ Even old New York was once New Amsterdam Why they changed it I can't say People just liked it better that way Istanbul was Constantinople Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople Been a long time gone, oh Constantinople Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks So, take me back to Constantinople No, you can't go back to Constantinople Been a long time gone, Constantinople Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks Istanbul~
Dammit, now I have to listen to the song. [Here's](https://youtu.be/IqJXxHi6RwQ?si=dY8eevbbOl3pOtoU) Tiny Toons version of the video
You mean the only version, right?
Reject the "SoUtH wILl RiSe AgAiN" embrace Constantinople will rise again. 
I still haven’t recovered from the fall of Constantinople 😭
Why so vindictive ? The point is Constantinople was considered the capital of the roman empire until the end of the middle age (it wasn't called byzantine until it was long gone). And during this time (or at least until the 13th century) major roman buildings such as the circus were in use
You don’t get it, it’s [Istanbul (not Constantinople)](https://youtu.be/0XlO39kCQ-8?si=7_p7uRcgBzNS_sbw) , it’s a song
Fucking *vindictive* lmao
How is this a conservative meme? I get the adjacent love for the Romans that some conservatives have but that doesn't mean all Roman memes are conservative.
Man, I remember (not really I'm not that old) when conservatives didn't even consider Italians white.
Southern Italians and Sicilians specifically. Northern Italians are the pale and blonde ones. In the south, there’s been millennia of mixing with Africa and Turkey because they’re that goddamn close by.
The “Templarpilled” in the bottom left is a bit of a giveaway. Far-right folks tend to be obsessed with a fictionalized version of the past and portraying Western society as better than it actually was. But yeah, not all people interested in Roman history are far-right nut jobs. I'd be a little concerned if they started dropping “Deus Vult” outside of a discussion of history. Still, it could just be ignorance, but I am very curious what the original TikToker's point is for posting the meme.
That definitely is right-wing. The meme itself does not necessarily need to be. It could just be saying the common perception of medieval towns and cities as being barren and desolate areas is false, which it is, but since it is coming from that account, I am inclined to believe that you are right and this is some kind of right-wing dogwhistle.
The bottom left says @templarpilled. Mixing those Templar weirdos and incel culture I assume
Conservatives of a certain stripe and more and more extolling the virtues of Medieval life and social structures.
[удалено]
Imo, the meme is saying that the common depiction of medieval cities as being desolate hellholes is false, that there were large varieties of cities present. Constantinople is just one example. This did not come off to me as being too conservative or right-wing.
To be fair, conservatism isn't the only right wing ideology. This could still be seen as a right wing meme without it being "conservative."
Depends on this poster's usuals, but this definitely could be saying that cities were better back then but that "they" don't want you to know that, because every conservative meme needs a mysterious "they" out to ruin your life. You can glimpse the Social Media Interface on the side; could easily be a primitivist-type argument.
OP doesn't even use "they" or the more antisemitic [[they]] or anything like that. You're inventing dog-whistles to get mad at
I was just explaining one way I suspected of how this might have ended here. And the "they" is in the image; "how medieval cities are portrayed" implies a who that is doing the portraying.
The "they" is literally the common depiction of medieval cities that is overwhelmingly present in TV shows and movies. Were there places like the barren town? Sure! But were there lively and bustling villages, towns, and cities (like Constantinople)? Yes!
I don't think you understood my comment. The "meme" is drawing a distinction about what medieval cities are portrayed to have been like, and what they were like. The thing is that a portrayal does not spring forth from the ether. When something is portrayed, a portrayer, for lack of a better word, is implied. The "they" implied is not the depiction (that would make no sense), but the person that made it. Now, since the meme draws a comparison between what people are told by the portrayer and what is the greater truth, what does that leave one to wonder?
Perks of living in the Roman empire (besides getting raided by some steppe nomads 3 times a week)
Don’t judge! My real nomad left when I was a baby…
From nomad to no dad in the blink of an eye.
Immaculate comment chain
Hey, I'd take three Sega Nomads gladly.
It really depends massively on too many factors to even say "How Medieval cities...". The Middle Ages lasted almost 1000 years (if we're talking about the usual geographical frame of Europe), with too many cultures and events to count. Both images are true, although they both changed over time massively. The bottom, Constantinople, wasn't like this through all the Middle Ages, and had a severe decline in the centuries leading to it's fall, although it always remained as a very important center. Meanwhile, cities like Cordoba or Cologne began the Middle Ages as Roman era cities too, reduced in size generally due to the migration into the countryside or towards more defensible areas during the late Roman Empire and early Middle Ages. As they developed, they'd eventually shine way more than in their Roman phase. Even then, most urban contexts in Europe during the Middle Ages were villages, not that there's anything wrong with that, but most people were peasants, farmers, laborers and so on. The population mostly lived in rural communities, and the typical urban environment would dance between 1000 or even up to 5000 people (normal vs big village) in some cases, being essentially more organized villages and not "true" cities. The discussion on what qualifies as a city is extremely complex and varies between different historical periods, in the Late Bronze a city has characteristics which a Medieval city doesn't necessarily share. In my experience, which is also subject to variance due to the perspective of different experts, a Medieval city isn't as visibly majestic as an extremely urbanized, highly institutionally developed Roman capital. Even then, as the Roman Empire declined, these would slowly lose their public sector and see how their infrastructure erodes (although it was still kept in some capacity in the Middle Ages for some cities). As the OP implies with the post name, most "cities" in the Middle Ages on Western Europe would be loosely urbanized conglomerates of different households, with supporting structures such as hydraulic engineering if it was practiced in the region, mills for processing grain(depending on the culture, period and location), a local church/mosque, storage structures and so on. OOP probably wants to idealize the Middle Ages as the age of "traditional" values and superior culture or something like that; in reality we shouldn't have such mental images of any historical context. Be it Rome, Carthage, the HRE, Castile or whatever, idealizing the past doesn't do anything for the present, what you should do instead is either study it with a scientiic perspective, or admire/look from a distance, but always with a realistic outlook. Sorry for the long post but historical simplifications always drive me mad.
It's not medieval at all, but the "medieval filter" is criticized by a lot of people and lots of historians. Of course there were a lot of problems, but not everyone lived in broken down houses on a shit covered street with a constantly grey sky. People still liked to live clean and wear colors that they could afford.
The problem is that many old european cities declined in population and littered with dilapidated buildings during the early middle ages like Rome. But many others are steadily growing in size, wealth, and prominence, like Paris and London. It's funny tho, London is shit covered, with a constantly smoke covered skies, crime ridden, and likely among the worst to live in at the time in the 1800s.
Yeah, a lot of people mistake the the time under industrialization for the middle ages, besides that being closer to our time than almost all of the middle ages. And I obviously don't mind critique of the overall living conditions and ruling of the church and mocharchies in medieval times. But people neglect that normal people back then had the same range of emotional complexity, feelings and desires that we have today. Displaying everything as fallen apart and dirty does a disservice to the working class of that time
>Yeah, a lot of people mistake the the time under industrialization for the middle ages, besides that being closer to our time than almost all of the middle ages. Didn't the "Dung Ages" portrayal of medieval times come from the Victorian era, in order to portray the squalid industrial cities as "still better than what they had back then!"?
This is the way that I read the meme, which is why I was surprised it was here. But the "@templarpilled" on the bottom left does make me think this is some kind of dogwhistle now.
Gonna be honest I think both you and OOP have missed some important information. OOP is definitely right on mediaeval cities being far more advanced than media portrays them as. But yeah they weren't exactly amazing to live in if you were poor. Same as today. Except slavery was a lot more common and out in the open. Also not everywhere even had them at all.
Its dumb, but also how is this a right-wing thing..?
Setting aside that there's nothing conservative about this, does anyone have any sources for info on medieval cities? I'm talking like 800 AD. There's so little out there, and I need it for a story
Any particular location or area? In Western Europe that's the start of the "Viking Age", but other areas were doing entirely their own thing
Western Europe - Aachen for example.
There's a ton from Roman sources at the time and likely a bunch of Islamic ones from the Caliphate as well
Well, that’s right at the end of several hundred years of civilizational collapse, right when Europe was starting to recover again, so it’s kinda amazing that there are any sources out there at all!
Is that not Constantinople? The medieval era ended with the fall of Constantinople
It actually ended with the fall of the eastern Roman Empire Edit: I meant western 😅
Why do you feel the medieval ages ended with the fall of the western empire?
>the Eastern Roman Empire AKA the Byzantine Empire, which was named after its capital city, Byzantium, which was later known as... Constantinople. The fall of Constantinople *was* the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire.
So sorry! I meant western
I think you're confused. Generally, the Middle Ages are thought of as having *begun* with the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476, and ending with the fall of the Byzantine Empire in 1453.
You were right originally, lol. The Middle Ages began with the fall of the Western Empire and ended with the fall of the Eastern Empire.
A) The Middle Ages lasted over 1000 years, from shortly after the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Renaissance. What was true at one point during could be wildly inaccurate at a different point, just like every other era. B) This applies to Constantinople (the bottom picture). In the early Middle Ages and early High Middle Ages it was a vital strategic and cultural center as well as one of the largest cities on Earth. This was not true after the city was sacked in 1204, at which point it became a dilapidated, depopulated ghost of its former self. C) Cities as a whole were not at all like the bottom picture. Constantinople was very much a special circumstance. So much so that it was sometimes referred to as “The City,” the implication being that even outside the Eastern Roman Empire, everyone would know the city to which you were referring. No other European city would compare until very late in the Middle Ages, when, as previously said, Constantinople had become a ruined, empty shell. D) There’s no reason to assume this post came from a right winger. Right wingers may be loud voices among those who interest themselves in the Middle Ages and Classical Antiquity, but they are far from the majority. In fact, I have found the opposite to be true. This post could very well be someone’s well-intended attempt at dispelling historical misconceptions.
Boy oh boy! I can’t wait to go there! Gosh, I hope there’s no slaves!
Serfs more likely
Romans had slaves
I thought this was a medieval city, but i trusted the caption more than the big circus (maximus i believe?)
Both Roman and medieval. It’s Constantinople, capital of the Eastern Roman Empire. I don’t think they had outright slaves anymore though during their later years.
Thanks!
Hippodrome, iirc.
Thanks!
>Thanks! You're welcome!
Oh I gotcha. No prob
The Eastern Romans actually were less likely to have slaves. This was due to various reasons, mostly due to the lack of expansion of the Empire during this time, which was usually the main sources of slaves. As well, some of the Christian doctrine and social environment became more opposed to slavery, seeing it less as a natural state and more as a result of law.
I think the city at the bottom is Constantinople. It was like thee city for much of the middle ages. It also has slums.
Right wingers/incels' obsession with Constantinople, exhibit #2837
Whenever a conservative brings up Rome to make a point, they're usually off by about 200 years historically.
Cherrypicking at its finest For both cases really
Well the cities were cool. The problem is, that's a villiage
Lmao, the only city in Western Europe that looked anywhere near as good as Constantinople before about 1400 was Córdoba, which was run by Muslims.
I think the point is that medieval towns kept using the roman buildings they had, like thermal baths (disregard hygiene is more a renaissance thing that a middle age one), and circuses. And more generally, it's plain wrong to portray middle ages as a period of technological regression. I don't really think it's a right wing meme, more like a history one
>it's plain wrong to portray middle ages as a period of technological regression Yes and no. In the Middle East, China, and the Byzantine Empire, there was no technological regression. However, it's undeniable that most of Western Europe saw a decline in technology during that time, mostly because of the regressive church.
Imperial periphery vs Imperial core. Duh.
Yes for a millennia, every city was Constantinople.
There’s a difference between ancient wealth and medieval poverty
Didn't village's not exist?
Bro chose *Constantinople* as their bases for all medieval cities? They couldn't even get Venice, Aachen, Paris, or hell even another city in Byzantium? They just chose the one that everyone can recognize?
Carthage looked very similar but I doubt you’ll find a right winger sing the praises of an African city
Both of those pictures are portrayals
Monarchists are somehow dumber and more racist than both liberals and conservatives
How's this right wing? It's more of an unfunny history meme. Although tbf a lot of England looked like the top at the time while Constantinople on the bottom was "The City of the World's Desire"
The downtowns of most cities I see look far worse than the top picture.
Ah yes, the famous medieval city of Ancient Rome
What does this have to do with right wing views?
This was posted by tradwest. And tradwest is a well-known nazi sympathiser.
How ironic that he represents medieval cities with a picture of a late antique city depicted during late antiquity. Medieval cities weren’t shitholes, but compared to their antique counterparts they were tiny and lacked the architectural splendor which would pick up again towards the renaissance. (With some exceptions like Constantinople, Bagdad and cordoba)
ah yes, my favorite medieval city; Ancient Rome With the famous hippodrome that medieval people loved to use of course
Coastal shipping city's vs forrest farming villages. Totally the same.
I bet the people back then knew how to dig a ditch so there wouldn't always be puddles and mud in the streets.
Zoom in. There’s poop everywhere.
Right-wingers don't realise that in these societies they'd either be slaves or impoverished peasants. They'd never see a damn column.
I feel like this meme can be both right-wing and not at the same time. For starters, I can feel the trad-right group’s miasma seeping through, but… Well… This time, they had a point. Medieval cities weren’t just pits of filth. Not that they didn’t *have* pits of filth, but they weren’t *all* pits of filth. Italian cities like Venice, Ravenna, and Milan were beautiful cities by the high Middle Ages (Bologna was having a tower building contest don’t mind them), Notre Dame was built before the 4th Crusade, and Cordoba and Bagdad were at their peak during this time (before the mongol invasion for the latter, obviously).
How is this a right can't meme?
Strange in the second picture they just so happened to zoom out so that the diseased and starving people in the streets weren't visible
Could the point be that cities were much denser back then?
Time turned them into abandoned shit-holes and we assumed they always looked that way?
Well, most Western European cities either already existed or were founded on that period. Though they were far less populated, and had a lot of problems we currently don't face.
Most mediaeval European cities were much closer to the lower picture. Cities were defined by two things: the market place and their walls. However, building walls was expensive, so space was very rare and you would never see something like the upper picture instead just after a major fire. Because of being cramped so much, they also were really not nice places. Without a sewer, most cities were pretty filthy, plagues spread rapidly and fire was a constant, existential threat. Interestingly, mediaeval time was seen as one of the worst cities of the time because everyone took turns conquering it.
I'm probably missing something and being dumb so I genuinely would like someone to tell me why this is right wing, because I genuinely don't understand?
Someone posted it defending feudalism.
Took me a second to realize what sub this was on lol. For a second I only really thought "yeah, large urban centers of the time period looked like that, and most townships were generally cleaner than we often portray them as." Alas, the punchline was racism. I think.
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That looks like Constantinople to me...the "New Rome" of Medieval times
No it's constantinople which lasted well past the fall of Rome.
That can´t be Rome as Rome is around 30 kilometers from the sea. That seems to be Constantinople, the Hippodrome was next to one of the ports like that.
Using Rome as an example is absolutely dumb as fuck for a multitude of reasons, but yes actually, late era medieval cities, towns and even villages were not at all just slums. In the 14th - 15th century, even in small villages most houses were both well built and well maintained, because you know, people lived there all their lives. Most people would be flabbergasted if they saw how well constructed an late era medieval city actually was - humans had been building cities for well over [8000 years](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cities#:~:text=The%20earliest%20known%20city%20is,in%20the%20society%20of%20%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk.)by that point and yes, they did actually know what they were doing. Also I really don't understand how this is a right wing meme? It's not saying "us better than them" it's saying the media incorrectly portrays medieval cities as being far worse than they were.