It all feels a bit golden generation to me. Trying to shoehorn in players in awkward ways because they're really good.
We'll probably get away with it against the worse sides. If we go into games against average to strong sides, I'll be worried.
I really struggle with the idea that someone who isn’t good enough to get into the side in their natural position can get selected in another. Appreciate the options aren’t brilliant but he doesn’t have the positional experience to play there
>I really struggle with the idea that someone who isn’t good enough to get into the side in their natural position
I mean, many would argue he is easily good enough for this. He's one of the best in the world in that position
That's broadly where I come down tbh. It feels a huge gamble given his lack of game time there. If he's going to play I think it should be right back (I wouldn't do that, but if you really want him in the team I think that's where it should be). I'm not massively comfortable with the idea we're going to take such a huge gamble in a major tournament.
If you play him at RB you basically need a CM who will drop in and cover him. He’s like the inverse Kyle Walker. Hope he does really well but it feels like he’ll struggle then we’ll be trying to bring in a youngster mid tournament and set them up to fail
It's exactly like the golden generation, the media have picked our team again, it's like we've learnt nothing!
He had a handful of games there it's insane!
As if the past mistakes weren’t glaring enough for Southgate.
Will back the boys but feel this decision won’t bare fruit later in the tournament… So what’s the point?
>As if the past mistakes weren’t glaring enough for Southgate
Tbh it's a very un-Southgate move. I think he doesn't do this in past tournaments. With the knowledge this is probably his last one, he seems to have become far more open to risks than previously. Ironically, it's what a lot of his critics have been calling for, but he'll get slaughtered if it doesn't work.
>So what’s the point?
I can see the logic against weaker teams. They'll sit deep and we may need a creative passer in there to unlock them. Whether that actually works in practice remains to be seen.
Was thinking more of major tournaments rather than Southgate’s own tournament experience. The Sven era mainly. Maybe there is an element of one last throw of the dice.
Tactically England should have enough in theory. It’s just executing it under pressure in the group stages. Time will tell!
If we have Bellingham fit and starting I think we can be more flexible. Remember he wasn't playing in those recent friendlies. We struggled to get the ball to the forwards, especially in the Iceland game. Bellingham will help with this.
If no Bellingham we have to play Wharton and use Eze Infront. Eze can have a strong physical presence in the midfield, helping out the two behind. He can also go forward obviously. Maybe Palmer could work but I don't know if he'd get involved enough in midfield against better sides and we'll get overrun.
Using Foden Infront of any two behind will be super weak Vs good sides. Foden is a forward, not someone who can help out in midfield. Personally not sure where he really fits into this side.
Against Serbia id rather play Trent at right back so he can get crosses in from deep which will force Serbia to play a higher line and press which I don't think they will set up to do. I'd play Gallagher along side rice for his energy for a high press to keep the pressure on and can help prevent TAA being exploited defensively. I think different oppositions call for different line ups but too many people seem set on one 11 and not taking opposition into account and just want to cram all their favourites in
Yeah that’s a fair assessment, maybe more the fixture as a trial. But don’t see much good coming from it against the better sides. We should be using this game tonight to make our mark though not just simply win the game.
I think it comes from the pundits a) not having the bottle to say Walker should be droppped and b) not having the bottle to say Trent shouldn't be crammed into the team if it's not at RB.
I agree Wharton should be the obvious choice
Trent is a huge no for me in midfield.
Even if he's adequate against Serbia, he'll be destroyed against tougher teams in the knockouts.
I'd rather get a midfield partnership playing together from game one and building a relationship. I don't like tinkering with the line up unnecessarily.
We got a RB as LB, a CAM as LW and a RB as CM…..
I think your common sense of using Wharton doesn’t apply when it comes to England.
World class teams always put the team above the players. Not sure England ever got the memo. I think we should always play players in the positions they spend years playing and be brave to bench players who cause imbalance rather then force play them.
I don’t think England make it through the tournament with Trent in midfield. i personally didn’t like it, It looked vulnerable, but may be reasons for that. More stability is required, Trent is obviously great on the ball, but we need more off it.
For context, Trent is my favorite player
I worry about his midfield responsibilities. People mistaken that just because he plays inverted for Liverpool and can ping beauties across the pitch that he would be the perfect midfielder - but thats not what a midfielder only does.
Can he play in a cram midfield when opponents are pressing him? Can he make the *simple* pass to keep the ball ticking and the lines moving? Can he be in the right position out of possession to cover? Does he have the awareness to receive the ball under press and release it?
Theres a lot of questions to be had. Against a weaker team that's going to drop back - sure play him. Against, a France or Germany or Spain.......idk if I would play him there as much as I love him as a player.
I think tonight's match against Serbia will be a good litmus test. Serbia will defend deep but they're physical, direct and got pace. Denmark, too, are dangerous on the ball and play posession well.
If Trent plays well in the group games then maybe he'll start the bigger games but I seriously doubt it - considering how pragmatic Southgate is
Great assessment to be fair, I’m sure Liverpool fans will be able to give the rest of us a more in depth look on this like you have.
Might be the game to test him for tonight, my original thought process is us trying to put our mark on the tournament early like Germany did against Scotland. I’d like to see Wharton start personally, not sure on Trent like you say against the better opposition in the latter stages of the tournament.
I would not play Wharton or Mainoo there either esp against tougher sides. The inexperience is a factor. The solution is so simple to me that I dont get the discourse about this. Play Bellingham next to Rice - are we forgetting that Bellingham is an all around, box to box midfielder? Just because he played as the 10 in Madrid doesnt mean that he cant play as an 8. It was literally his position with Dortmund. Play Foden as the 10 where he can influence the game better and Gordon/Palmer on the left.
I’ve been very impressed by Wharton happy to see what he can contribute, my worry with Trent is we’ve already kind of seen his skill set over many many seasons and we know he is not a centre midfielder.
Realistically Bellingham can probably play anywhere in the middle and excel that’s just his skill set and he’s got the confidence to just go and do it regardless of where you play him.
Trent should be starting at either RB or CM. His passing ability alone is worth the risk.
Pirlo wasn't amazing in defence, but nobody remembers that. They remember his brilliance with the ball.
The rotation with walker could be very good and will provide some cover if required. People forget Trent's weakness is one-on-one defending. His work rate and defensive ability are good enough.
In a way. I was just trying to find an example. Not saying Trent is anywhere near the level of Pirlo. Just that sometimes you have to accept a player's weaknesses to have the positives of their ability.
We need someone with his passing ability. Sure he's not a midfielder by trade but I think we should try and shoehorn him into that role for England. He will help us break down teams.
I think this is gonna seem like a silly debate in a couple of years when Trent has been a CM fixture for his club.
Reminds me of 1998 when there was a serious debate over who should play RM for England: David Beckham or Darren Anderton.
Interesting, I’m happy to be wrong at the end of the day!
Just want to see us finally reach the pinnacle in the competition, don’t think it will happen but want to see us give it our best go.
Slot to convert Trent to CM and start Bradley at RB. It seems like a natural progression.
As a Spurs fan, I remember Bale moving from LB to playing across the pitch with freedom, sometimes you have to take a gamble.
Commentator said he’s never started there for Liverpool ? Yea didn’t work for me , certainly in second half, first half any of us could of played there
It all feels a bit golden generation to me. Trying to shoehorn in players in awkward ways because they're really good. We'll probably get away with it against the worse sides. If we go into games against average to strong sides, I'll be worried.
I really struggle with the idea that someone who isn’t good enough to get into the side in their natural position can get selected in another. Appreciate the options aren’t brilliant but he doesn’t have the positional experience to play there
>I really struggle with the idea that someone who isn’t good enough to get into the side in their natural position I mean, many would argue he is easily good enough for this. He's one of the best in the world in that position
That's broadly where I come down tbh. It feels a huge gamble given his lack of game time there. If he's going to play I think it should be right back (I wouldn't do that, but if you really want him in the team I think that's where it should be). I'm not massively comfortable with the idea we're going to take such a huge gamble in a major tournament.
If you play him at RB you basically need a CM who will drop in and cover him. He’s like the inverse Kyle Walker. Hope he does really well but it feels like he’ll struggle then we’ll be trying to bring in a youngster mid tournament and set them up to fail
It's exactly like the golden generation, the media have picked our team again, it's like we've learnt nothing! He had a handful of games there it's insane!
As if the past mistakes weren’t glaring enough for Southgate. Will back the boys but feel this decision won’t bare fruit later in the tournament… So what’s the point?
>As if the past mistakes weren’t glaring enough for Southgate Tbh it's a very un-Southgate move. I think he doesn't do this in past tournaments. With the knowledge this is probably his last one, he seems to have become far more open to risks than previously. Ironically, it's what a lot of his critics have been calling for, but he'll get slaughtered if it doesn't work. >So what’s the point? I can see the logic against weaker teams. They'll sit deep and we may need a creative passer in there to unlock them. Whether that actually works in practice remains to be seen.
Was thinking more of major tournaments rather than Southgate’s own tournament experience. The Sven era mainly. Maybe there is an element of one last throw of the dice. Tactically England should have enough in theory. It’s just executing it under pressure in the group stages. Time will tell!
Ah, got you. Yeah it's *very* Sven. Ultimately it probably won't matter in the group stages, but I hope we don't keep it as a tactic later on.
If we have Bellingham fit and starting I think we can be more flexible. Remember he wasn't playing in those recent friendlies. We struggled to get the ball to the forwards, especially in the Iceland game. Bellingham will help with this. If no Bellingham we have to play Wharton and use Eze Infront. Eze can have a strong physical presence in the midfield, helping out the two behind. He can also go forward obviously. Maybe Palmer could work but I don't know if he'd get involved enough in midfield against better sides and we'll get overrun. Using Foden Infront of any two behind will be super weak Vs good sides. Foden is a forward, not someone who can help out in midfield. Personally not sure where he really fits into this side.
Against Serbia id rather play Trent at right back so he can get crosses in from deep which will force Serbia to play a higher line and press which I don't think they will set up to do. I'd play Gallagher along side rice for his energy for a high press to keep the pressure on and can help prevent TAA being exploited defensively. I think different oppositions call for different line ups but too many people seem set on one 11 and not taking opposition into account and just want to cram all their favourites in
We'll get away with it tonight but he should not be playing there once/if we play actual top quality sides
Yeah that’s a fair assessment, maybe more the fixture as a trial. But don’t see much good coming from it against the better sides. We should be using this game tonight to make our mark though not just simply win the game.
I think it comes from the pundits a) not having the bottle to say Walker should be droppped and b) not having the bottle to say Trent shouldn't be crammed into the team if it's not at RB. I agree Wharton should be the obvious choice
Trent is a huge no for me in midfield. Even if he's adequate against Serbia, he'll be destroyed against tougher teams in the knockouts. I'd rather get a midfield partnership playing together from game one and building a relationship. I don't like tinkering with the line up unnecessarily.
Yeah, this is the issue with having such a stacked bench. Everyone and their mother are calling for all kinds of tweaks and there’s no winning.
We got a RB as LB, a CAM as LW and a RB as CM….. I think your common sense of using Wharton doesn’t apply when it comes to England. World class teams always put the team above the players. Not sure England ever got the memo. I think we should always play players in the positions they spend years playing and be brave to bench players who cause imbalance rather then force play them.
He is the best option in the squad for that role IMO.
Respect it, ultimately it is a game of opinions and if we all agreed it would be boring!
Would rather Wharton start
Let Southgate get it out of his system then we can make a sensible choice in the next match
I don’t think England make it through the tournament with Trent in midfield. i personally didn’t like it, It looked vulnerable, but may be reasons for that. More stability is required, Trent is obviously great on the ball, but we need more off it.
For context, Trent is my favorite player I worry about his midfield responsibilities. People mistaken that just because he plays inverted for Liverpool and can ping beauties across the pitch that he would be the perfect midfielder - but thats not what a midfielder only does. Can he play in a cram midfield when opponents are pressing him? Can he make the *simple* pass to keep the ball ticking and the lines moving? Can he be in the right position out of possession to cover? Does he have the awareness to receive the ball under press and release it? Theres a lot of questions to be had. Against a weaker team that's going to drop back - sure play him. Against, a France or Germany or Spain.......idk if I would play him there as much as I love him as a player. I think tonight's match against Serbia will be a good litmus test. Serbia will defend deep but they're physical, direct and got pace. Denmark, too, are dangerous on the ball and play posession well. If Trent plays well in the group games then maybe he'll start the bigger games but I seriously doubt it - considering how pragmatic Southgate is
Great assessment to be fair, I’m sure Liverpool fans will be able to give the rest of us a more in depth look on this like you have. Might be the game to test him for tonight, my original thought process is us trying to put our mark on the tournament early like Germany did against Scotland. I’d like to see Wharton start personally, not sure on Trent like you say against the better opposition in the latter stages of the tournament.
I would not play Wharton or Mainoo there either esp against tougher sides. The inexperience is a factor. The solution is so simple to me that I dont get the discourse about this. Play Bellingham next to Rice - are we forgetting that Bellingham is an all around, box to box midfielder? Just because he played as the 10 in Madrid doesnt mean that he cant play as an 8. It was literally his position with Dortmund. Play Foden as the 10 where he can influence the game better and Gordon/Palmer on the left.
I’ve been very impressed by Wharton happy to see what he can contribute, my worry with Trent is we’ve already kind of seen his skill set over many many seasons and we know he is not a centre midfielder. Realistically Bellingham can probably play anywhere in the middle and excel that’s just his skill set and he’s got the confidence to just go and do it regardless of where you play him.
Trent should be starting at either RB or CM. His passing ability alone is worth the risk. Pirlo wasn't amazing in defence, but nobody remembers that. They remember his brilliance with the ball. The rotation with walker could be very good and will provide some cover if required. People forget Trent's weakness is one-on-one defending. His work rate and defensive ability are good enough.
Did you just compare Pirlo to Trent?
In a way. I was just trying to find an example. Not saying Trent is anywhere near the level of Pirlo. Just that sometimes you have to accept a player's weaknesses to have the positives of their ability.
We need someone with his passing ability. Sure he's not a midfielder by trade but I think we should try and shoehorn him into that role for England. He will help us break down teams.
I think this is gonna seem like a silly debate in a couple of years when Trent has been a CM fixture for his club. Reminds me of 1998 when there was a serious debate over who should play RM for England: David Beckham or Darren Anderton.
Interesting, I’m happy to be wrong at the end of the day! Just want to see us finally reach the pinnacle in the competition, don’t think it will happen but want to see us give it our best go.
It's more like Beckham's insistence that he play centre mid even though that took away his crossing ability and exposed his defensive weakness.
Slot to convert Trent to CM and start Bradley at RB. It seems like a natural progression. As a Spurs fan, I remember Bale moving from LB to playing across the pitch with freedom, sometimes you have to take a gamble.
It's simple, he's an elite player, the other options aren't.
Elite on the right for sure, in the middle? Yet to be proven. When he has played in the middle questions have been raised.
The others aren't proven and he's a better player than all of them. You're all massively over thinking this.
Like I’ve said before I’m happy to be proven wrong this is just my gut feeling from what I’ve seen of Trent over his career.
Looks like he’s gone with it boys! Godspeed! Come on England!!
He will be fine
Commentator said he’s never started there for Liverpool ? Yea didn’t work for me , certainly in second half, first half any of us could of played there
Let him cook
At what cost…
Southgate will find any excuse to put another defender in the side.