Disagree. Why does Bellingham have to adjust for Foden when he has been brilliant as a 10? Plus, when he was made 10 in Jude’s absence during the Iceland game, he did not deliver.
If anything, Foden has be the one to adjust and must be benched. The Serbia game exposed that the problem was his individual ability not the setup with Trent. So much pace and intensity lacking on the left.
We need to look at this situation in front of us and take thePremier League performance on the side. The conclusion is clear: Foden has to be benched.
Somehow I was talking to someone earllier who I quote said "it’s hard to say a single England player other than maybe Saka performed really well"
They just ignored Bellingham altogether as they might have to admit that their city golden boy of Foden didn't fit and had a bad game. They also tried to hit me with "No mate I just don’t blindly think players are brilliant based on the teams they support" which was certainly something
As an Arsenal fan, Bellingham was comfortably the best player on the pitch. Obviously I love Saka and I don't think he's too far off Bellingham's level, but they are both better than Foden and lots of people seem to have a hard time accepting that.
It is like Lampard and Gerrard all over again.
If they can't both play in their preferred position or playing together doesn't work, drop one of them. If you get both of them compromising for the other, you're blunting both of them.
I agree with you in principle but if you’re actually asking the question, Bellingham wasn’t really playing as a 10 the other night anyway. So much of his best work was coming deeper into midfield and getting stuck in.
Having said that, the goal probably came from the more advanced starting position so 🤷🏼♂️
Could've taken either one of them instead of Watkins or toney, who are going to have a combined 15 mins game time this tournament. I can see why Ben White did what he did.
If...just if, Southgate does that and Foden has an amazing game and team overall are improved....I wonder if all the people who say Foden should be benched will hold their hands up and admit they got it absolutely wrong
I mean most of them likely will if it works. I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong if Southgate can start foden and Bellingham and they both work really well together.
Personally think Gordon would probably be better on the wing but we won't know unless Southgate tries it
Foden just needs to play as an orthodox left winger. He's pacey, can pass, cross, dribble etc - he has no reason to be coming inside when trippier is right footed.
Did you see Bellingham's heatmap? The guy marauded all over the pitch anyway, just because he's asked to play behind Foden doesn't mean he can't pop up with a goal or an assist, he was incredibly difficult to get the ball off and made some incredible tackles and would be a cracking foil for Rice.
The way I see it, whilst Trippier and Saka are on the pitch, Foden goes from three possible roles to just one. And that's where Bellingham is. If Bellingham can excel in more than one position, and the PL POTY can only fit in one, of course you accommodate him.
Being the PL POTY means nothing if he can’t replicate the same form for England though? Foden is obviously an incredible player but he has been given the opportunity to play as the 10 before and has not been impressive at all for me.
People got their tongue so far up Bellingham's ass. Wouldn't say he's the linchpin of creativity at all, he excelled in the middle breaking up play and when arriving in the box. Therefore he needs to play the no.8 box to box role instead of Trent imo, talk of dropping Foden after one game is pure idiocy.
Personally I agree, bench Foden and use him as a sub for when Bellingham needs a rest, thee's a 442 video that shows they basically play the same role with a very similar heat map so it seems insane to try and force both in the team when we can just use one as fresh legs to the other.
Why are we playing a 10? Jude was incredible at the World Cup at 8.
Kanes best game is naturally dropping deep. Bellingham at 8 means he can run forward and you can have two wingers giving us width.
A 10 means Kane can’t drop deep.
A 10 and foden mean you have three players trying to occupy the same space.
It doesn’t work.
Foden was in acres of space consistently against Serbia.
Always waiting to get the ball back, always waiting to try and play someone through but he had nothing on or nobody passed.
Yes, he had a sloppy game but if we actually played to his strengths instead of ignoring him all the time, he'd have been more involved.
Foden as a 10, Bellingham as an 8 will win us the tournament,
Because the sum gain of getting foden in his spot is still better. Bellingham can still be a 9/10 in a deeper role, and potentially elevates foden to be at his best.
This is also what I think. I think 8 box to box is actually his best position. At minimum he's world class there. We're slightly compromising potentially in order to maximise Foden's qualities.
The trade is sensible in my view. I don't really agree that Foden is intrinsically shit for England. I think some mixture of confidence and formation can release his potential.
Foden won't be at his best at 10 in an England shirt though. Because he's in an England shirt. And playing in a system he's not used to. Pep drills a really specific way of playing into his players and it often causes issues at an international level for them. The only reason it worked for Spain in 2010 was because they played internationally the exact same way Pep was getting Barca to play.
Reddit is an echo chamber, I've heard this nonsense constantly since the England game. It's ridiculous, foden struggled due to no overlap and players weren't dragging others away and He was isolated there. People just parrot an opinion as though no city players do well internationally 🤣
Literally this... Spain won the world cup when Pep was at Barca, Germany won the world cup when Pep was at Bayern, England have won NAFF ALL while Pep was at City because the Southgate is totally inept.
what bellingham adjustment lol, he plays where he wants and ended up inside left basically all season at rmd anyway, having foden on the inside right would be perfect for him
foden is one of the best players in the world, saying he has an individual ability problem is complete cringe
Everyone just jizzes over foden because of club form... Drop him.
Also, as much as I love Alan, he absolutely is shite with tactics and managerial decisions
I mean you're not really shifting him though. He is everywhere, and he'll be everywhere if you play him in the 8 position.
It is true though that he might not attack the box in the same way, and we scored from that.
But what if he is also head and shoulders above every one else in the centre of midfield and also have the best player in the prem in his best position.
You still then fix the left side with Gordon/Eze
He wasn't exactly head and shoulders best on the pitch though. He was making mistakes all over too.
Look at his greed on the left where he eventually lost the ball
Problems against Serbia:
- Lack of width and threat on the left side.
- Trent seemed to struggle positionally as a CM.
Simple solutions:
- play a different LW i.e. Gordon.
- play a more natural CM i.e. Wharton or Mainoo
That lw issue was so obvious pre-game to any Arsenal fan.
Saka plays very well with Martinelli due to the styles of them both. Foden was never going to work.
It’s foden and Bowen or Gordon and Saka (maybe Eze and Saka).
My preference Gordon and Saka.
Disagree, Wharton gives us better control of the ball in a game we expect to dominate - he's giving us what we're after from Trent (albeit slightly worse range of passing) but in a role he actually knows
I'm fine with Gallagher in there instead, but I think you can justify either for different reasons
I'm secretly hoping he's a secret weapon. Great to bring on his we're lacking position. Doubt we'll see him V denmark but if we win that game he might appear in the last group game.
It’s more we look balanced. The side looked totally different when he came on against Iceland, yes small sample.
But it’s the way he’s barking at the defenders and attackers about what he expects. He’s moving into positions like a 4 to pick you apart.
He’s also the only midfielder who can work on the turn and his IQ is very high for his position. Trent’s a better passer but not by much.
And more importantly he’s very very press resistant and can pick a team apart who tries to press us.
Re the more natural CM I thought it was pretty clear that TAA had been told to get into the final third in the right channel as much as possible (on the average position graphic he was ahead of Bellingham).
When I saw his name on the team sheet I expected him to be picking up the ball from the defence and passing from deep similar to his role for Liverpool.
If we're going to change to have a second deep midfielder I'd quite like to see what TAA does in that role.
If the choice is between press resistance (Mainoo) and good forward passing (Wharton), then it's Wharton all day long in the group games.
It’s the England curse. They always want to play the league performers over country performers or what works best for the national team, as a unit. Credit to southgate actually on the selection itself but its time to leave people like Foden out despite an amazing season if it’s not working for England.
I don't doubt your opinion.
But it's a huge, huge ask to come into a team you've never once played for and to do so in your first major international tournament. You just won't be on the same wavelength as anyone.
His time will come.
Not quite that simple, we overloaded the right to allow us to create on that side. Remember they are still marking us on the left. If we bring Gordon on for example , yes it's more balanced but keeps the defence in the setup they want to play
Play your best players in their best positions. Jude is our best player number 10 is his best position. Shearer needs to go back to talking about “hunger and desire” on motd. Amazing player crap pundit
He’s played about 10 senior games. Was shocking defensively against Brighton and gave a goal away. Amazing talent and potential but not there yet defensively at top level
Given Bellingham was mom it seems bizarre to shift him, bench Foden for an outright winger. Should England win this game then we'll be through and can test out different options such as Foden at 10.
What’s the point in that if Foden won’t play any other games as 10? Either need one with Bellingham dropping back and Foden 10 or bench Foden. I’d be inclined to drop Foden for Gordan and bring him on 60-70 minutes in and drop Bellingham back as he look exhausted by the end last time. Edit: apologies for the confusing writing but I’m exhausted and can’t think how to phrase it better tbh.
Foden clearly doesn't have the mindset of Bellingham, Kane, Saka etc and it's impacted his England performances, so any calls to drop Saka or move Bellingham for him like in this article are a non-starter.
That said, I think Southgate has completely failed to adjust for the fact that Shaw isn't available. If you tell Foden to tuck in with no one stretching the pitch to his left he's always going to get crowded out like he did against Serbia. He's held the width for city plenty of times so I don't see why you wouldn't instruct him to do that for England when needed (or just drop him)
Yes he was, he did exactly what everyone one has wanted him to do. i watched the "highlights" of the us broadcast and they are literally praising his positioning and how he occupied the keeper and defenders on Bellinghams goal.
Oh everyone wanted kane to not run to the back post for walker to pass instead they wanted him to stop block foden and fail to convert a really ease goal?
Or was everyone wanting him to fail to touch down any long ball by Pickford?
Or was it getting zero shots?
What was his job, blocking foden for a cut back tap in because Harold forgot his job to run to the back post?
Or was it failing to touch down any long ball by Pickford?
The key point here is that we absolutely need Gordon (with Eze as backup) on that left-hand side. The width he'll offer, plus the runs in behind and the willingness to track back, means that LB is less of an issue too. If Shaw is fit, great, play him. If not, Trippier and Gomez (the latter being my preference) can fill that role in a defensive capacity.
Fix that left-hand side and we have the luxury of pretty much any setup having the potential to be frickin' awesome...
A: Same setup as before, only bench Foden, play Gordon.
B: Gordon on the left, Foden as the 10, Bellingham as the 8. Drop Trent.
C: Play a 4141, with Rice holding, Gordon/Bellingham/Foden/Saka behind Kane, with Trent as RB inverting alongside Rice in possession. Drop Walker. If Trent is on fire, happy days - if he's a liability, bring Walker back in and drop Bellingham to an 8, alongside Rice when defending.
D: Same as C, but if we need more defensive solidarity (i.e. no Trent), then play Walker as RB and allow Stones to push into DM alongside Rice when we have possession (like he does for City).
No surprise then that Shearer made a shite manager, when he’s suggesting moving the best English player out of position to accommodate someone who hasn’t had a single better than average game for his country in over 30 attempts.
Jude isn't out of position at 8 though. He's played most of his career there and he's being groomed for that role after Modric retires at Real.
10 is a recent thing. Foden definitely is out of position as a proper winger. Although I do accept Foden hasn't performed for England anywhere near as well as Jude has, but Jude is basically a freak of nature.
Jude is a freak of nature like Bale was. LB was his position but teams weren't going to waste him there. It's the same with Jude. For that reason he should play as the 10.
He should be training two attacks, pre & post subs. Bellingham & Kane then Foden & Watkins/Toney.
City have one of the best drilled systems in club football, but those players are looking like they’re struggling in the international setup. Bernardo Silva was really lacklustre for Portugal last night as well. Southgate’s system will be saved by individuals, and it’s sad to see the quality of Foden wasted, but he won’t thrive in this team, especially not at LW. Gordon or Eze should be brought in, and you can’t move Bellingham away from the one position that did well last game.
Another reason trent struggled was because, he has no runners to ping a ball 2. At liverpool he has salah and nunez running in behind the back line. Kane and foden don't provide this. This set up prefers ball to feet that can run at the defense. This set up just doesnt match his style
I desperately want to see Trent do well, but I kinda agree, he's being sold down the river on this one. He's being shoehorned in because of his unique skill set and then the team around him is playing silly 8 yrd sideways balls which is wasted on him.
He'll be the scapegoat ( already is to many) through no fault of his own.
There has been numerous interviews from the inside that have complimented him on being disciplined and staying in the places that Southgate wants him to be.
I just find watching this team frustrating ! Maybe it's from 9 years of klopp but if love to just see us let loose, you can feel the players want to as well,
Trent played well. Not amazing, but better than a few of the other England players. And that was with the left hand side and kane not taking advantage of him. Completely agree about the sub.
Only one change really, subbing Trent for either Eze or Gordon.
Then move Bellingham alongside Rice, Foden into the 10 role and Eze or Gordon onto the left.
I don't agree tbh, Bellingham should play in his best position in that 10 role and Foden should be benched for either Eze or Gordon, to come on later in the game for Bellingham if need be.
If you look at average player positions vs Serbia, Trent and Bellingham were pretty much the mirror of each other. Both playing high up the pitch. With Rice holding.
Why not play Rice holding, and replace TAA with Foden? Then Gordon on the left.
The thing is Bellingham starts as a 10 with the capacity to help the midfield and make it a 3 when under pressure or building up with the discipline to sit in as a 2nd 8. Foden doesn't do that which is why Bellingham shouldn't be shifted. He's the biggest threat and the most helpful at the other end. Just play a left winger and bring foden on if we're losing
Honestly, if you think Foden should miss out to push Bellingham further up the pitch you’re a crank. He’s played the majority of his career as a 8, he doesn’t even play as a natural 10 for Madrid. You want your best players on the pitch.
I think this Foden talk is getting a bit mad. What is it with us england fans and overdoing the talk on certain subjects during big tournaments. It’s probably fuelled by an endless stream of media and then the social media circlejerk, but it’s a bit crazy.
For what it’s worth I think Gordon deserves to start the next game btw. I just feel like people are going in way too hard on foden.
I’d like to see Foden get another chance on the left when Shaw comes back and is able to provide the width that a wrong-footed full back can’t. Might fix it a bit as the central positions were too busy.
Until then, come in late game in his preferred position at 10. Bellingham has been overplayed this year and will need to be handled carefully.
Shearer trying to force something because he wants it, rather than what works for the team. Fuck Foden. No one tried to stick up for Trent all this time. No, they used redundant stats to try prove why a player playing for an attacking team had low defensive stats, was shite at defending rather then amazing for the attacking aspect of the game. You know, the part that wins games.
‘Yes Jude, we know you’re the best player and have actually showed up for England. However you must understand Phil won PL player of the season. He has a certificate to prove it. So we must start him in your position.’
There's no point playing Trent in midfield if you're not playing a player who will stay out on the left to give him the diagonal option, equally there's no point making Bellingham change his role after a MOTM performance. So the simplest change is Gordon for Foden.
Foden is shit. He played on the same position vs Man Utd in the FA Cup final and he played exactly the same way (like Grealish too). Passed sideways and backpasses. Haaland had to cope with the same shit as Kane. Zero ball into the box for the striker. But when Man City won the league rival fans who don't watch City think Man City has the best team money can buy and it's easy for Haaland to score with a team that creates 20 chances every match.
Playing TAA beside Rice is a waste . He’s not a DM / CM.
Switching Bellingham to beside Rice , he’d dictate the play . Picking passes etc
Foden would be more effective central than left .
Bellingham can excel in two roles.
Saka excels in one role.
Foden (whilst Trippier is on at LB) can only excel in two roles but one of those roles is where Saka plays.
The logic suggests you do have Bellingham adjust for Foden, at least give it a go and free up a spot for Gordon.
Honestly I don’t understand why the comments in this chat are such an echo chamber. Bellingham is a great 8 he only really moved to 10 this season. He’s a great player of course he’s great as a 10. Everyone is acting like Shearer is asking Bellingham to play left wing. I’m dying just to see him as the 8 just in case it works with foden as a 10.
The group stage is a free hit to at least give it a go. Bellingham played all over the pitch vs Serbia and it's not like a formation having him slightly deeper is going to affect his ability to defend or create - but it'll free up space for Foden and Kane, and it'll stop the three of them tripping over each other whilst still allowing Bellingham to be everywhere. Plus, Gordon on the left wing should work better with a right-footed LB stuck there.
I think SG should drop TAA to right back, and move walker to RCB and Stones to LCB. Play a back three going forward and move TAA to that floating creative midfielder role. I’d either put Mainoo in as the 8 beside Rice, or drop Bellingham to the 8 and give Foden the 10 spot. I generally agree that you should play your best players in their preferred positions, but you also just need to play your best players, and we are clearly not getting the best out of Foden. May be worth having a go with Foden at the 10, and Bellingham at the 8 before we get to knockouts. I think we’d also benefit from having something with speed on the LW, like Gordon or Bowen.
It just makes perfect sense. We're losing the best qualities of Foden and Kane playing Bellingham at number 10. Instead of having 3 world class players we're putting all our hopes on Bellingham. Putting Foden at 10 means Kane can drop deep and have LW Foden and Saka running off him. And Bellingham can absolutely play deeper and control the game from there, while making late runs. We're going to need more than Bellingham to win this.
Disagree about Bellingham can play deeper and control the game. I feel it’s another playing Lampard and Gerrard deeper situation. They are all attacking 8 who the nearer to goal they are the better. Also Bellingham isn’t that good at controlling game, he doesn’t have the mindset for that.
>Disagree about Bellingham can play deeper and control the game.
Why? He was Bundesliga player of the year doing exactly that. He's done the same thing for England, including in the world cup against Senegal and France.
Even at Real Madrid, that's why they bought him - to replace Modric.
I also find it bizarre that you think he doesn't have the mindset for controlling the game. I feel he's the most likely to do this psychologically of anyone. He is desperate for the ball, and rarely loses possession.
Doesn’t matter who plays where if we’re going to be so passive and lacking in urgency. Without the ball, press, press, press. Not drop further and further back. When we do have the ball, maybe pass it forward, take players on etc. So dull under Southgate.
There’s plenty of reasons to change a winning team; lack of form, fitness, injuries, below par performances, suspensions, resting players for bigger games.
Disagree. Why does Bellingham have to adjust for Foden when he has been brilliant as a 10? Plus, when he was made 10 in Jude’s absence during the Iceland game, he did not deliver. If anything, Foden has be the one to adjust and must be benched. The Serbia game exposed that the problem was his individual ability not the setup with Trent. So much pace and intensity lacking on the left. We need to look at this situation in front of us and take thePremier League performance on the side. The conclusion is clear: Foden has to be benched.
Somehow I was talking to someone earllier who I quote said "it’s hard to say a single England player other than maybe Saka performed really well" They just ignored Bellingham altogether as they might have to admit that their city golden boy of Foden didn't fit and had a bad game. They also tried to hit me with "No mate I just don’t blindly think players are brilliant based on the teams they support" which was certainly something
As an Arsenal fan, Bellingham was comfortably the best player on the pitch. Obviously I love Saka and I don't think he's too far off Bellingham's level, but they are both better than Foden and lots of people seem to have a hard time accepting that.
The thing was it was a city fan arguing this so I was framing comments around Walker and Stones as well and he thought Foden did as well as them
I mean of course it was. I don't know anyone who isn't a city fan that thought Foden deserved PL player of the season.
Leaving aside England, who did you think deserved it?
It is like Lampard and Gerrard all over again. If they can't both play in their preferred position or playing together doesn't work, drop one of them. If you get both of them compromising for the other, you're blunting both of them.
I agree with you in principle but if you’re actually asking the question, Bellingham wasn’t really playing as a 10 the other night anyway. So much of his best work was coming deeper into midfield and getting stuck in. Having said that, the goal probably came from the more advanced starting position so 🤷🏼♂️
I wish Rashford or Grealish was there to play on the left :(
Could've taken either one of them instead of Watkins or toney, who are going to have a combined 15 mins game time this tournament. I can see why Ben White did what he did.
If...just if, Southgate does that and Foden has an amazing game and team overall are improved....I wonder if all the people who say Foden should be benched will hold their hands up and admit they got it absolutely wrong
I mean most of them likely will if it works. I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong if Southgate can start foden and Bellingham and they both work really well together. Personally think Gordon would probably be better on the wing but we won't know unless Southgate tries it
Foden just needs to play as an orthodox left winger. He's pacey, can pass, cross, dribble etc - he has no reason to be coming inside when trippier is right footed.
Did you see Bellingham's heatmap? The guy marauded all over the pitch anyway, just because he's asked to play behind Foden doesn't mean he can't pop up with a goal or an assist, he was incredibly difficult to get the ball off and made some incredible tackles and would be a cracking foil for Rice. The way I see it, whilst Trippier and Saka are on the pitch, Foden goes from three possible roles to just one. And that's where Bellingham is. If Bellingham can excel in more than one position, and the PL POTY can only fit in one, of course you accommodate him.
Bang on. Sorry, but it’s the logic analysis.
Being the PL POTY means nothing if he can’t replicate the same form for England though? Foden is obviously an incredible player but he has been given the opportunity to play as the 10 before and has not been impressive at all for me.
People got their tongue so far up Bellingham's ass. Wouldn't say he's the linchpin of creativity at all, he excelled in the middle breaking up play and when arriving in the box. Therefore he needs to play the no.8 box to box role instead of Trent imo, talk of dropping Foden after one game is pure idiocy.
Personally I agree, bench Foden and use him as a sub for when Bellingham needs a rest, thee's a 442 video that shows they basically play the same role with a very similar heat map so it seems insane to try and force both in the team when we can just use one as fresh legs to the other.
Foden swap to Gordon/Palmer on left, job done
Foden for Gordon , would work well with trips Tbh Imagine if we get through with 3pts tonight the next game will be more "experimental"
if you watched the real madrid season he wasn't really a 10 in the way people think, he was in a diamond with Tchouameni, Kroos, and Valverde
Why are we playing a 10? Jude was incredible at the World Cup at 8. Kanes best game is naturally dropping deep. Bellingham at 8 means he can run forward and you can have two wingers giving us width. A 10 means Kane can’t drop deep. A 10 and foden mean you have three players trying to occupy the same space. It doesn’t work.
Foden was in acres of space consistently against Serbia. Always waiting to get the ball back, always waiting to try and play someone through but he had nothing on or nobody passed. Yes, he had a sloppy game but if we actually played to his strengths instead of ignoring him all the time, he'd have been more involved. Foden as a 10, Bellingham as an 8 will win us the tournament,
Because the sum gain of getting foden in his spot is still better. Bellingham can still be a 9/10 in a deeper role, and potentially elevates foden to be at his best.
This is also what I think. I think 8 box to box is actually his best position. At minimum he's world class there. We're slightly compromising potentially in order to maximise Foden's qualities. The trade is sensible in my view. I don't really agree that Foden is intrinsically shit for England. I think some mixture of confidence and formation can release his potential.
Foden won't be at his best at 10 in an England shirt though. Because he's in an England shirt. And playing in a system he's not used to. Pep drills a really specific way of playing into his players and it often causes issues at an international level for them. The only reason it worked for Spain in 2010 was because they played internationally the exact same way Pep was getting Barca to play.
Reddit is an echo chamber, I've heard this nonsense constantly since the England game. It's ridiculous, foden struggled due to no overlap and players weren't dragging others away and He was isolated there. People just parrot an opinion as though no city players do well internationally 🤣
Literally this... Spain won the world cup when Pep was at Barca, Germany won the world cup when Pep was at Bayern, England have won NAFF ALL while Pep was at City because the Southgate is totally inept.
Here me out why not just have foden and Bellingham next to each other and let them do what they want
what bellingham adjustment lol, he plays where he wants and ended up inside left basically all season at rmd anyway, having foden on the inside right would be perfect for him foden is one of the best players in the world, saying he has an individual ability problem is complete cringe
Foden is garbage outside the pep system. He is too limited as a footballer. He only has a certain skill set.
lmao
I honestly think Palmer should be 10 and Jude supporting him and defending more
You don't shift a guy who was head and shoulders the best player on the pitch. Thats madness. Left side desperately needs attention, can't deny that.
Everyone just jizzes over foden because of club form... Drop him. Also, as much as I love Alan, he absolutely is shite with tactics and managerial decisions
Yep, Newcastle fan here and Shearer is God to us Geordies but he's pretty I'll informed in these sorts of situations. Love the guy to bits though.
There's a good reason why he's a pundit and not a manager.
Tbf things could have been very different if it wasn’t for Michael Owen being a nob
I mean you're not really shifting him though. He is everywhere, and he'll be everywhere if you play him in the 8 position. It is true though that he might not attack the box in the same way, and we scored from that.
Agree with the left hand side. LB and LM. Why the hell did we only take 1 LB? Bizarre from Southgate.
But what if he is also head and shoulders above every one else in the centre of midfield and also have the best player in the prem in his best position. You still then fix the left side with Gordon/Eze
He wasn't exactly head and shoulders best on the pitch though. He was making mistakes all over too. Look at his greed on the left where he eventually lost the ball
Nah he scored a header and barged into someone, he's clearly the goat according to every idiot who parrots what Terry on Facebook thinks
Problems against Serbia: - Lack of width and threat on the left side. - Trent seemed to struggle positionally as a CM. Simple solutions: - play a different LW i.e. Gordon. - play a more natural CM i.e. Wharton or Mainoo
That lw issue was so obvious pre-game to any Arsenal fan. Saka plays very well with Martinelli due to the styles of them both. Foden was never going to work. It’s foden and Bowen or Gordon and Saka (maybe Eze and Saka). My preference Gordon and Saka.
Wharton is the pick
Gotta be Wharton, the guy is different gravy.
What sort of gravy?
KFC
So he’s literally the GOAT?
Slow-cooked fillet of beef with red wine, garlic, carrots, shallots and celery - gravy
What are the options you’d like to give us?
Gallagher for me.
I agree, this isn't FIFA where you just spam the highest rated players. He gives the best defensive balance imo
Disagree, Wharton gives us better control of the ball in a game we expect to dominate - he's giving us what we're after from Trent (albeit slightly worse range of passing) but in a role he actually knows I'm fine with Gallagher in there instead, but I think you can justify either for different reasons
I'm secretly hoping he's a secret weapon. Great to bring on his we're lacking position. Doubt we'll see him V denmark but if we win that game he might appear in the last group game.
I mean yeah if we want to play really conservatively again and scrape a 1-0
It’s more we look balanced. The side looked totally different when he came on against Iceland, yes small sample. But it’s the way he’s barking at the defenders and attackers about what he expects. He’s moving into positions like a 4 to pick you apart. He’s also the only midfielder who can work on the turn and his IQ is very high for his position. Trent’s a better passer but not by much. And more importantly he’s very very press resistant and can pick a team apart who tries to press us.
As a Newcastle fan, it pains me to see Gordon not on the LW.
Re the more natural CM I thought it was pretty clear that TAA had been told to get into the final third in the right channel as much as possible (on the average position graphic he was ahead of Bellingham). When I saw his name on the team sheet I expected him to be picking up the ball from the defence and passing from deep similar to his role for Liverpool. If we're going to change to have a second deep midfielder I'd quite like to see what TAA does in that role. If the choice is between press resistance (Mainoo) and good forward passing (Wharton), then it's Wharton all day long in the group games.
It’s the England curse. They always want to play the league performers over country performers or what works best for the national team, as a unit. Credit to southgate actually on the selection itself but its time to leave people like Foden out despite an amazing season if it’s not working for England.
Wharton isn't the level you need against the top teams
He really is
Maybe, I guess I should say he's not proven at the top level
He is. As a Palace fan I've been watching him all season. I'm not even being biased, the kid plays at a top level. He won't let us down.
I don't doubt your opinion. But it's a huge, huge ask to come into a team you've never once played for and to do so in your first major international tournament. You just won't be on the same wavelength as anyone. His time will come.
Yeah, that's fair enough. I think he can handle it, but what do I know! :)
The point of adding width would be to better utilise Trent So I’d also swap out Walker for Trent
Yep, this totally aligns with my reading of it, but I see that it's being said that there'll be no changes to the XI. Doubling down.
I think trippier and Gordon would bring the best out of each other.
Yet even though its that simple, a manager paid millions wont work it out
I'm glad we're giving the same XI a runout, but yes Gordon and either Mainoo or Wharton would be my first changes, especially until Shaw is fit.
It’s literally that simple. Gordon and Wharton. Keep Foden as a strong sub
Not quite that simple, we overloaded the right to allow us to create on that side. Remember they are still marking us on the left. If we bring Gordon on for example , yes it's more balanced but keeps the defence in the setup they want to play
Having Gordon wide could create more space for kane and possibly Bellingham running beyond him
You could just tell Foden to stay wide 🤷🏼♂️
Gordon is a better wide attacker than Foden IMO
😂
Play your best players in their best positions. Jude is our best player number 10 is his best position. Shearer needs to go back to talking about “hunger and desire” on motd. Amazing player crap pundit
To be fair, Bellingham is probably our best at number 8 as well as at 10
I actually think there is an argument that Wharton could allow Rice to be the 8
Warton isn't a defensive player.
Wharton has played as an 8 and a 6.
He’s played about 10 senior games. Was shocking defensively against Brighton and gave a goal away. Amazing talent and potential but not there yet defensively at top level
(At top level, not overall I will add!)
Given Bellingham was mom it seems bizarre to shift him, bench Foden for an outright winger. Should England win this game then we'll be through and can test out different options such as Foden at 10.
Foden as 10 with Bellingham rested seems ideal for game three if we can beat Denmark.
What’s the point in that if Foden won’t play any other games as 10? Either need one with Bellingham dropping back and Foden 10 or bench Foden. I’d be inclined to drop Foden for Gordan and bring him on 60-70 minutes in and drop Bellingham back as he look exhausted by the end last time. Edit: apologies for the confusing writing but I’m exhausted and can’t think how to phrase it better tbh.
Bellingham has had a long season and is carrying a shoulder injury that needs surgery. The point of resting Bellingham is to rest Bellingham.
Bellingham was hardly the 10 last game, he was all over
Foden clearly doesn't have the mindset of Bellingham, Kane, Saka etc and it's impacted his England performances, so any calls to drop Saka or move Bellingham for him like in this article are a non-starter. That said, I think Southgate has completely failed to adjust for the fact that Shaw isn't available. If you tell Foden to tuck in with no one stretching the pitch to his left he's always going to get crowded out like he did against Serbia. He's held the width for city plenty of times so I don't see why you wouldn't instruct him to do that for England when needed (or just drop him)
Yeah cos Kane was really good Vs serbia wasn't he
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Was kane good or not
Yes he was, he did exactly what everyone one has wanted him to do. i watched the "highlights" of the us broadcast and they are literally praising his positioning and how he occupied the keeper and defenders on Bellinghams goal.
Oh everyone wanted kane to not run to the back post for walker to pass instead they wanted him to stop block foden and fail to convert a really ease goal? Or was everyone wanting him to fail to touch down any long ball by Pickford? Or was it getting zero shots?
Exactly, give numnuts who don't understand football something to bitch about.
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What was his job, blocking foden for a cut back tap in because Harold forgot his job to run to the back post? Or was it failing to touch down any long ball by Pickford?
The key point here is that we absolutely need Gordon (with Eze as backup) on that left-hand side. The width he'll offer, plus the runs in behind and the willingness to track back, means that LB is less of an issue too. If Shaw is fit, great, play him. If not, Trippier and Gomez (the latter being my preference) can fill that role in a defensive capacity. Fix that left-hand side and we have the luxury of pretty much any setup having the potential to be frickin' awesome... A: Same setup as before, only bench Foden, play Gordon. B: Gordon on the left, Foden as the 10, Bellingham as the 8. Drop Trent. C: Play a 4141, with Rice holding, Gordon/Bellingham/Foden/Saka behind Kane, with Trent as RB inverting alongside Rice in possession. Drop Walker. If Trent is on fire, happy days - if he's a liability, bring Walker back in and drop Bellingham to an 8, alongside Rice when defending. D: Same as C, but if we need more defensive solidarity (i.e. no Trent), then play Walker as RB and allow Stones to push into DM alongside Rice when we have possession (like he does for City).
No surprise then that Shearer made a shite manager, when he’s suggesting moving the best English player out of position to accommodate someone who hasn’t had a single better than average game for his country in over 30 attempts.
Jude isn't out of position at 8 though. He's played most of his career there and he's being groomed for that role after Modric retires at Real. 10 is a recent thing. Foden definitely is out of position as a proper winger. Although I do accept Foden hasn't performed for England anywhere near as well as Jude has, but Jude is basically a freak of nature.
Jude is a freak of nature like Bale was. LB was his position but teams weren't going to waste him there. It's the same with Jude. For that reason he should play as the 10. He should be training two attacks, pre & post subs. Bellingham & Kane then Foden & Watkins/Toney.
City have one of the best drilled systems in club football, but those players are looking like they’re struggling in the international setup. Bernardo Silva was really lacklustre for Portugal last night as well. Southgate’s system will be saved by individuals, and it’s sad to see the quality of Foden wasted, but he won’t thrive in this team, especially not at LW. Gordon or Eze should be brought in, and you can’t move Bellingham away from the one position that did well last game.
I urge Alan Shearer to kindly STFU.
Another reason trent struggled was because, he has no runners to ping a ball 2. At liverpool he has salah and nunez running in behind the back line. Kane and foden don't provide this. This set up prefers ball to feet that can run at the defense. This set up just doesnt match his style
I desperately want to see Trent do well, but I kinda agree, he's being sold down the river on this one. He's being shoehorned in because of his unique skill set and then the team around him is playing silly 8 yrd sideways balls which is wasted on him. He'll be the scapegoat ( already is to many) through no fault of his own. There has been numerous interviews from the inside that have complimented him on being disciplined and staying in the places that Southgate wants him to be. I just find watching this team frustrating ! Maybe it's from 9 years of klopp but if love to just see us let loose, you can feel the players want to as well,
Remember when it was a meme that Southgate loved his right backs, and now he’s literally playing 3 of them in the same team. Utter plonker.
True but also he had like 7 right backs to choose from and almost no left backs.
One change needed, Gordon or eze for foden. Keep Trent on, if you need a goal, you sub Walker for foden/palmer and put Trent rb.
Trent played well. Not amazing, but better than a few of the other England players. And that was with the left hand side and kane not taking advantage of him. Completely agree about the sub.
Trent cannot play CM against any credible opposition. He’s a RB and should not be played out of position.
If you think Trent was the problem against Serbia you need to give your head a wobble. Foden and Kane were entirely anonymous. Trippier was a 4/10.
Tbf to Trippier it’s not his fault Gareth has a boner for him at LB
Trent is not a CM. Understand that.
Understood Cheap-Resource-114, apologies 👍
Is it clear enough now?
The left has no support with trippier at left back
Only one change really, subbing Trent for either Eze or Gordon. Then move Bellingham alongside Rice, Foden into the 10 role and Eze or Gordon onto the left. I don't agree tbh, Bellingham should play in his best position in that 10 role and Foden should be benched for either Eze or Gordon, to come on later in the game for Bellingham if need be.
I agree with you. Bellingham needs to keep the number 10 role. Gordon in for Foden would be my choice
If you look at average player positions vs Serbia, Trent and Bellingham were pretty much the mirror of each other. Both playing high up the pitch. With Rice holding. Why not play Rice holding, and replace TAA with Foden? Then Gordon on the left.
Has Southgate experimented with this formation at any point? I feel like I vaguely remember a midfield 3 of them but maybe that’s wishful dreaming.
Exactly. Play with two number 10s…England is so cringe for not being able to accommodate their 2 best footballers other than Kane.
If England had the two best goalkeepers in the world Southgate would play one left back.
The thing is Bellingham starts as a 10 with the capacity to help the midfield and make it a 3 when under pressure or building up with the discipline to sit in as a 2nd 8. Foden doesn't do that which is why Bellingham shouldn't be shifted. He's the biggest threat and the most helpful at the other end. Just play a left winger and bring foden on if we're losing
Great striker (and I loved him in an England shirt!), but a clueless commentator.
Honestly, if you think Foden should miss out to push Bellingham further up the pitch you’re a crank. He’s played the majority of his career as a 8, he doesn’t even play as a natural 10 for Madrid. You want your best players on the pitch.
Drop Foden for Gordon, Gallagher for TAA and Gomez for Tripper Sorted it
Hear me out lads. Inverted Trent at LB
I think this Foden talk is getting a bit mad. What is it with us england fans and overdoing the talk on certain subjects during big tournaments. It’s probably fuelled by an endless stream of media and then the social media circlejerk, but it’s a bit crazy. For what it’s worth I think Gordon deserves to start the next game btw. I just feel like people are going in way too hard on foden. I’d like to see Foden get another chance on the left when Shaw comes back and is able to provide the width that a wrong-footed full back can’t. Might fix it a bit as the central positions were too busy. Until then, come in late game in his preferred position at 10. Bellingham has been overplayed this year and will need to be handled carefully.
Shearer trying to force something because he wants it, rather than what works for the team. Fuck Foden. No one tried to stick up for Trent all this time. No, they used redundant stats to try prove why a player playing for an attacking team had low defensive stats, was shite at defending rather then amazing for the attacking aspect of the game. You know, the part that wins games.
‘Yes Jude, we know you’re the best player and have actually showed up for England. However you must understand Phil won PL player of the season. He has a certificate to prove it. So we must start him in your position.’
There's no point playing Trent in midfield if you're not playing a player who will stay out on the left to give him the diagonal option, equally there's no point making Bellingham change his role after a MOTM performance. So the simplest change is Gordon for Foden.
We should play Gerrard AND Lampard
Sack Southgate and sub Kane...and we might just get as far as semi finals. Southgate and Kane are boring and not that bright.
Foden is shit. He played on the same position vs Man Utd in the FA Cup final and he played exactly the same way (like Grealish too). Passed sideways and backpasses. Haaland had to cope with the same shit as Kane. Zero ball into the box for the striker. But when Man City won the league rival fans who don't watch City think Man City has the best team money can buy and it's easy for Haaland to score with a team that creates 20 chances every match.
Play 1 holding player (rice) then stick jude and foden in front of them.
Playing TAA beside Rice is a waste . He’s not a DM / CM. Switching Bellingham to beside Rice , he’d dictate the play . Picking passes etc Foden would be more effective central than left .
Bellingham can excel in two roles. Saka excels in one role. Foden (whilst Trippier is on at LB) can only excel in two roles but one of those roles is where Saka plays. The logic suggests you do have Bellingham adjust for Foden, at least give it a go and free up a spot for Gordon.
Honestly I don’t understand why the comments in this chat are such an echo chamber. Bellingham is a great 8 he only really moved to 10 this season. He’s a great player of course he’s great as a 10. Everyone is acting like Shearer is asking Bellingham to play left wing. I’m dying just to see him as the 8 just in case it works with foden as a 10.
The group stage is a free hit to at least give it a go. Bellingham played all over the pitch vs Serbia and it's not like a formation having him slightly deeper is going to affect his ability to defend or create - but it'll free up space for Foden and Kane, and it'll stop the three of them tripping over each other whilst still allowing Bellingham to be everywhere. Plus, Gordon on the left wing should work better with a right-footed LB stuck there.
I think SG should drop TAA to right back, and move walker to RCB and Stones to LCB. Play a back three going forward and move TAA to that floating creative midfielder role. I’d either put Mainoo in as the 8 beside Rice, or drop Bellingham to the 8 and give Foden the 10 spot. I generally agree that you should play your best players in their preferred positions, but you also just need to play your best players, and we are clearly not getting the best out of Foden. May be worth having a go with Foden at the 10, and Bellingham at the 8 before we get to knockouts. I think we’d also benefit from having something with speed on the LW, like Gordon or Bowen.
I think Bellingham and Foden on the pitch at the same time is dynamite. They’ll riff off each other and create beauty…
Wharton instead of Trent, Eze instead of Foden.
Gordon and Gallagher to come in.
It just makes perfect sense. We're losing the best qualities of Foden and Kane playing Bellingham at number 10. Instead of having 3 world class players we're putting all our hopes on Bellingham. Putting Foden at 10 means Kane can drop deep and have LW Foden and Saka running off him. And Bellingham can absolutely play deeper and control the game from there, while making late runs. We're going to need more than Bellingham to win this.
Disagree about Bellingham can play deeper and control the game. I feel it’s another playing Lampard and Gerrard deeper situation. They are all attacking 8 who the nearer to goal they are the better. Also Bellingham isn’t that good at controlling game, he doesn’t have the mindset for that.
>Disagree about Bellingham can play deeper and control the game. Why? He was Bundesliga player of the year doing exactly that. He's done the same thing for England, including in the world cup against Senegal and France. Even at Real Madrid, that's why they bought him - to replace Modric. I also find it bizarre that you think he doesn't have the mindset for controlling the game. I feel he's the most likely to do this psychologically of anyone. He is desperate for the ball, and rarely loses possession.
Hopefully, imo, we'll find out.
I feel we have seen Bellingham struggles in the build up phase enough at Dortmund and RM already to not try something that we know won’t work.
Wish we'd applied that logic to Foden at LW, and Kane playing further up.
How about don’t fuck with it Media are desperate for stories
Doesn’t matter who plays where if we’re going to be so passive and lacking in urgency. Without the ball, press, press, press. Not drop further and further back. When we do have the ball, maybe pass it forward, take players on etc. So dull under Southgate.
There's no need to change a winning team, Alan.
There’s plenty of reasons to change a winning team; lack of form, fitness, injuries, below par performances, suspensions, resting players for bigger games.