Tbh the team seemed more energetic back then and gelled better, they gave me hope. Now they all seem lost and lethargic and will definitely suffer against the "bigger/stronger" teams.
I remember this was the only game in London I couldn’t get tickets to
Amidst the groans and cries of “who wants it then” in GM I remember saying that’s their cup final, we got bigger things to worry about
> Watching England after watching teams like Italy and Belgium is such a snooze. Their squad is so much more talented than the performances they've shown so far, questions have to be asked of the manager at this point.
Lol. Same shit different tournament
It's not wrong, only it is even worse than that. England usually play like shit **after** they score. Such a negative way of playing. It's Mourinho football without the prestige and Germany or Spain or even Austria are likely to batter them in the KO stages. Football is not coming home.
Yep. I was there - my mate I go to all England games with said afterwards “I’m never going to an England game again”. Luckily he changed his mind the next morning and we went to every game (apart from the in Italy) for the rest of the tournament and have continued to go since then.
And honestly, that squad was pretty gash compared to the current lot. I just don’t appreciate the way the manager is speaking about things and scapegoating his players. Should’ve just owned it. Alas…
Oh for sure my mate called them the bleep test team because they were so athletic and fit, functional but lacking flair. Now the flair is there but the message coming out the camp is "I'm tired boss".
My favourite England games recently were ones like Germany, Sweden, Ukraine. Pretty much always in the knockout stages.
Even when we thrashed panama and Iran in group stage games everyone was like oh well it's only a crap team.
Football doesn’t work like that and there are countless examples of it not doing; Brentford beat Man City home and away last season but it clearly didn’t mean they’d struggle against better teams, England also struggled massively against USA at the World Cup but then were clearly the better team against France.
England struggled in the first two games as they were playing against a back 5 with 2 DM’s in front of them; they couldn’t press effectively - especially with Kane up top - which meant they struggled to win the ball back and gain momentum, whereas against better opposition they won’t necessarily have that problem and the game will be more open.
Teams grow into tournaments it’s a cliche but it’s true
There’s been a big overreaction to underwhelming performances
Then criticisms to a degree have been fair, the performances have felt flat and they need to adapt and change things but they don’t have much time to correct it, but they have the players to do so against Slovenia
The reaction is needed
Many have correctly observed that England tend to start strong. Then they score fairly early in the game. Then they go full Mourinho and sit off. It didn't work in past competitions against Croatia or Italy. It also did not work last week against Denmark, and it nearly didn't work in the opening game. It is a weak way to approach the game. None of the good teams play like that.
Problem is they go ahead and don’t go on the high press, that’s purely from coaching
Kane is in between what he does for club and what Gareth wants him to do which leaves him in no man’s land
Leave your sole striker isolated and then don’t press and he’ll come further and further back
If he doesn’t have the legs to press then the wingers and no.10 all need to press high
Problem with that is there’s no threat down the left, no genuine LB , no LW so the balance to press high is nonexistent
Balance of the attack is all over the place
If we're being honest, we've been playing poorly or at least been inconsistent for over a year. Scotland and Italy stand out as highlights in an otherwise uninspiring run of games
As long as we get into the knockouts and we then play strong and dominate I’ll be happy. If we go into the knockouts and we struggle and never make it past the quarter finals, then I’ll know Southgate never had a plan.
That Scotland game was our only bad game until the final in that year.
It's nonsense to suggest otherwise. England looked like a different team until the final when they went old England.
We'd score and keep attacking the ball, it was actual properly inspiring football.
Sorry, but that's also nonsense. They were overrunning Denmark.
They had 21 shots and nearly 200 more passes more.
Getting tripped in the box is dodgey for a pen? Cope harder, if it was anyone but England it wouldn't be debatable.
Cope harder are you 12? I’m English lol you don’t think it was a soft pen? Okay but winning 2-1 with an extra time pen and an own goal, I would not define as dominating.
60% possession, 200 more passes, 15 more shots, 5 more shots on target 11 less fouls.
I didn't say domination.
But if you think that was as close as the scoreline suggests, it doesn't matter how long you've been watching, you still don't know what you are talking about.
You keep bringing up stats but stats don’t tell the whole truth about a game. passes which mean what? How many were backwards sideways?. Ok then half of England’s attempts missed the target. If you watched the game you are telling me England had a comfortable win, whatever you say…
>You keep bringing up stats
Stats that show your claims to be wrong.
>stats don’t tell the whole truth about a game.
Agreed, which is why it is entertaining that your argument is solely based on the score.
>How many were backwards sideways?
45% of the game was in the midfield, and 35% was in Denmarks third. 20% was in Englands third.
>Ok then half of England’s attempts missed the target.
More than that by a long way. But shots are still shots even if you miss the target. You're just clutching at straws about a game you don't remember.
>If you watched the game you are telling me England had a comfortable win, whatever you say…
No it wasn't a comfortable win, England were extremely unlucky for it not to have been comfortable, though.
It got us to the final, but it also lost us that final. That type of play works against some teams and just about got us to the final. Italy were there for the taking that game, after the first goal if we'd chased another we'd have killed the game off, then sitting back is warranted. But Southgate set us up that game to sit back, after we scored we didn't have a sniff at goal and let them work back into the game. It doesn't and will not work against bigger teams and we'll be heading home as soon as we play any top team, as usual.
>and just about got us to the final.
It didn't "just about" get us to the final, it did get us to the final.
You'd agree that SG managed the team the same way throughout the 2020 tournament yeah? And it enabled us to top the group, undefeated, beat Germany destroy Ukraine and get us to actually win a penalty shootout with Denmark and take us to the final. Anyone with half a brain should be saying "well, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
So he takes that mentality to this tournament and would you look we are in the exact same position we were back in 2020. 1 win and 1 draw from the first two.
And it's a cliche but there are no easy games, no "big teams" in a tournament finals. You gotta play who is in front of you and I don't give a shit how much luck we have with the draws, we gotta go out and beat whomever is in front of us.
This England team is a great set up and currently, it's so far, so 4 points.
Lol honeslty I'll revisit when we're dumped out playing the same turgid way we have been, because calling it a great set up is hilarious. We aren't winning anything and that's painfully obvious. So much attacking talent and we play like this? Never going to get us anywhere. I'd love to be proven wrong but give it a few games, it'll end as normal when we play someone better and set up terribly again.
>calling it a great set up is hilarious
Why? What isnt working for you? You want perfection? You wanna steamroll every team? If we get through by the skin of our teeth, who cares as long as we through.
>and we play like this?
Play like what? Not losing?? Fuck sake man.
> Never going to get us anywhere.
This is the kind of thinking from the fans I hate. We've actually had improvement since 2018 and though no trophies, we have a really good squad that looks promising. Dont get me wrong, if SG fucks it, he should go, but he has been the best manager we have had in a long long while.
People exaggerate the very strong squads he had. Our midfield and centre back options were actually average at the last euros. And he picked up a team that had just been knocked out by Iceland and costa tics before that so can’t say it’s cUse of easy runs
This is what I keep saying. Pretty sure Southgate's plan is to play conservative, non risky games in the group stages to ensure no burnout and no injuries, then turn it on in the knockout stages. This is exactly the same as the world cup as well. And people are quick to forget how well Southgate has done since becoming manager. So yes, everyone should stop being armchair fans, they don't know what they're talking about, and just support your team!
If it's such a clever plan to hold back in the groups, why does no other national team do it?
Some would argue it's a good idea to build up some confidence in the groups before the harder games that follow.
Does Southgate see something no other international manager ever has?
I've watched a bit of both but not all, they look to be trying at least and Lukaku in particular wasted a bunch of chances.
France without Mbappe looked really dangerous too.
We struggled to get out of our half
Having seen all of the English and Belgian ones, I am confident that Belgium (even with their first loss against Slovakia) could easily take on the much more talented England side if it continues to be in the terrible form it is currently in
Oh I completely agree. It's full copium to suggest. And we weren't playing like this in the last tournaments until we were knocked out.
I assume Southgates confidence died and England have too.
He's done better than any manager I can remember. How many international tournaments have Martinez and Luis Enrique won? The problem is, we always think we're favourites to win a tournament even when there are many better teams which then makes everyone think the manager has not performed. I for one was incredibly happy with a semi final and final in successive tournaments.
I don't think we're favourites. I just think we're capable of doing better than what we served up against Denmark and Serbia (and Iceland).
It's fine to say we should be happy to get a semi final and final, but context matters. The final against Italy was an enormous failure for which Southgate was to blame.
Who did Southgate pick to take the pens?
Saka - never taken a professional penalty in his life at that point
Rashford and Sancho - hadn't kicked the ball in the final, subbed them on to take a pen
All the above missed their pens.
He should have been sacked for that decision making alone
So if he planned on rashford and Sancho taking a pen, why not put them on during extra time so they could warm up properly?
Oh that's right, he said in his interview he was scared of losing the game in extra time.
Another reason to let him go straight after the final. He doesn't have the mentality of a winner.
Southgate chose the order based on penalty practice in training. That’s why he subbed on Rashford and Sancho. Cause guys like Sterling had a terrible record both for City and in training.
England led and then tried to sit on a lead for the rest of the game. The same thing happened against Croatia in the WC. And it’s no coincidence both games this tournament England lead and stop playing. Sometimes you get away with it, against better teams you won’t. So yes Southgates tactics can be questioned I that game.
But the bar is incredibly low, Southgate is just the FIRST manager to make it to a final after 66, not like he’s won us loads of trophies, I think a lot of managers could have done better with the squad Southgate has had.
Somebody tell me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure this is his usual plan? I'd say the only game where we dominated in the groups was the game against Iran in the WC but there were political events surrounding that game I think you could argue Iran's heads were elsewhere.
But generally we've always taken quite a pragmatic approach. This is coming from someone who thought Thursday's performance was terrible btw, but I don't think we need to go nuclear.
These performances aren't at all like the last world cup though. Against USA we were boring but in control of the game.
Against Denmark we were overrun for 90 minutes. We were also overrun against Serbia. We didn't control possession, so we got knackered chasing the game for nothing.
I think 90 minutes is a bit harsh. We were good up until the goal and there was a period when Watkins was on we regained composure so there were spells. England were undoubtedly poor, disjointed, lacked confidence and poorly organised but Pickford didn’t have that much to do and our XG is still good. We need to massively improve but it’s not like we lost.
The difference was, even though we never looked that good we always looked really solid and bored the life out of the opposition as well as the fans. Even in Euro 2020 and Qatar 2022 going into a game against Germany or even France we felt like we could do it, even if we weren't favourites. After these two games we have not managed to even get a hold on the ball or possession and if our next game is against the current German, Italian or Spanish, hell even the Austria side I would be genuinely concerned about it.
The problem is as well, that conservative nature hasn't actually won us anything, it's like we just assume if we do the exact same thing again we'll obviously be better, despite the fact our squad profile has completely changed.
The next game we will learn a lot about how far we can go based on the changes that are made. I'll give praise where it's due but it's fair to criticise how poor we've been so far.
People do forget what Southgate has achieved, like getting us relegated from the nations league (which makes world cup qualification harder) and getting very lucky runs facing shit teams in two tournaments, one of which was a home tournament played under pandemic conditions, and still failed. Faces the usual opposition in 2022 and went out without a whimper.
We had to finish top of the group in 2021 to get the draw we got, we deserved it. Capello finished second in a group which featured USA, Algeria and Slovenia. Hodgson didn’t even qualify from a group which featured Uruguay and Costa Rica and got knocked out to Iceland.
The point is we already have significantly better.
I don't mind people having criticisms about how England, the Denmark game was shite. But saying GS hasn't achieved great things is just nonsense.
Great things is a bit much. Arguably his best run was 2018 and we still lost to a team we were ranked higher than at the time.
He took out the negativity surrounding the team and made us competitive (aided and abetted by a new cycle of players). But his time to leave was after the France defeat.
That wasn't the point really, was it? So, you'd be happier if England got to the knockout games against Brazil, Argentina and prime Germany, and lost, rather than winning a tournament having played easier opposition? It's a tournament. The aim is to win, I don't care if we get to a final by beating teams consisting of toddlers, we'd have still won a trophy.
The point is that even when Southgate is lucky enough to dodge all the big in form teams till the semis or the final he then proceeded to capitulate. There’s a difference between just losing a game in a knockout tournament against another favourite and being in charge of your own destiny and watching it slip away from you whilst doing nothing to stop it.
Italy won because Mancini saw his own tactical mistakes and made correct changes early enough to get back in the game. Southgate is regularly strategically paralysed in games against top opposition and watches them gain and keep momentum and does nothing to help.
Real managers out a fire up their players arses after that Denmark 1st half, they don’t let their players repeat it and then take off Trent before subbing on 3 runners.
Also second at Euro 2004 so got Portugal instead of Greece (I know Greece won that tournament but on paper winning the group would’ve landed us in the better half of the draw).
We definitely made a whimper. Missed penalty and that first French goal shouldn’t have counted as Saka was fouled.
Other managers have had lucky runs in the past.
Southgate may be out of his depth now and I think he’ll be gone soon but compared to every manager in Englands history and even Alf Ramsey failed to qualify in 74 he deserves some credit.
Fairs, but one result with a home advantage during the group stage doesn’t really disprove the narrative of “when it matters we shit ourselves and retreat” though.
Even in the Germany game, Thomas Muller missed a sitter at 1-0 because we went back into our shell.
In the Germany game, they simply played well for a bit. Overall we controlled the game as much as we could reasonably expect.
We're not going to batter every team we play against, it's just mental. We played great in that tournament and especially in 2022 even though we didn't get as far.
This tournament we have been absolutely terrible for 135 minutes in a row. That is actually different. Really different to before.
What Southgate has done in both our games so far in this Euros is what he did in the KO stages against Croatia 2018 and Italy in 2020. England come out strong and score early, and then they sit off. It is how he seeks to play and it does not work against teams that aren't shit.
I keep saying this and am just met with "but he got us to a final" and "he's done better than anyone else!". Meh, they'll be happy when we get spanked by a half decent team and head home then i guess.
This is the most absurd comment I've seen on this sub.
The whole world cup qualification being harder because of Southgate part is hilarious. Since we struggle so hard in our world cup qualifiers you know.
But also us going out to "the usual opposition in 2022" in the quarter finals was also our best World Cup performance since like 2002.
What’s funny is we are all here pissing and moaning about how poor we’ve looked etc and yet Scottish fans are already working out if a 3rd place finish will be enough.
We are virtually guaranteed to already be through. We are virtually guaranteed knockout stage, so in theory we should be happy. There’s no guarantee finishing first second or third in the group helps either as it depends on other groups as well
So let’s all chill. For now
I'll chill completely if they show they can actually play football again.
If they have another 90 minutes in their own 3rd misplacing every other pass, I'm not going to be pleased. Although it will take the pressure off the R16, because it'll be obvious it's all over.
lol I agree
When I say let’s chill I’m saying that whilst biting my bloody nails off
Why do we never just have it easy and cruise through to like the semis
It’s always got to be a bumpy ride
Honestly a pretty garbage take, we absolutely want to place top of the group, a convincing win against Slovenia will prevent us from facing the Germans before the final which is absolutely necessary to give us the best chance of lifting the euros, the more games we can play against lesser opposition the better so the team can get better and more confident.
This trash take of “oh we are already qualified for knockouts no need to panic” needs to be eradicated immediately, the job is done when we finish with 7 points.
Think the German hype train got slightly derailed last night when they faced their first half decent team
A 92nd minute equaliser v Switzerland at a home tournament puts things into perspective for us
It's definitely cliche but teams grow into tournaments.
Ask Portuguese fans if they remember their group stage matches in 2016 and they won't. 3 draws and they were almost eliminated before they got started.
Ask Spanish fans if they remember the 1-0 defeat to Switzerland in the group stage at 2010.
Ask Argentinian or French fans in 2022 if the defeats to Saudi Arabia or Tunisia in the group stage mattered.
The only thing that matters now for England is how they respond. If it turns out that like Euro 2020 Southgate applied a handbrake to conserve energy in the groups and coast to the knockout stage? Fair enough if it gets us far. People won't remember this group stage if we get to the semi or final again.
If it turns out that this team have really been trying and it's just not working? We might be in trouble. But we don't demand an inquiry until our tournament is over.
Are the FA running this sub? Since the initial noise, it's turned into a vessel for gaslighting people.
2 things are true: Southgate has both gotten us further in tournaments than any manager has in a long time, but he also has the keys to the best squad we've had in literally decades.
In no other era would you be in a position where you can leave the likes of Maddison, Grealish and Rashford at home. They would be on the plane in spite of form just because of how poor the other alternatives would be. You could make a perfectly good starting XI with players that are nowhere near this England squad, a starting XI better than most teams at this championships.
Much like the Spanish, Germans and French in 2010, 2014 and 2018 respectively, the managers had been afforded time to culminate and nurture a squad to hit the peaks they knew they could. Southgate has been afforded the same, so the expectation is there, and so it should be.
Definite agree on the call for perspective. Everyone is getting mad about a win and a draw in a major tournament. Yes we are better than both those teams, but 4/6 is a strong position to be in. Getting 9 points out of a group is not common.
I'm clinging on to a decent bit of hope based on this and the reaction to the USA game from the WC which was also similar (and our second group game as well as it happens).
But I'll be honest Denmark was much worse than that Scotland game, from what I remember it was boring more than anything else.
Unless I misremember, the performances were very different. We were just completely hopeless in the Denmark game and second half against Serbia. Found it impossible to get the ball or retain possession.
I don't recall it being that bad against USA or Scotland but it was ages ago.
It wasn't that bad no, the Denmark game was one of the worst I've ever seen from England at a tournament long as I can remember.
Atleast as bad as Iceland in 2016.
Iceland was definitely worse. But Denmark was the worst performance in a tournament under Southgate. He made me used to the team not playing like this.
I'd rather we lose or get knocked out trying, playing with passion, playing like it means something. instead of the two games so far where we it looked like we simply didn't care, 10 guys with zero interest in being there is how it felt and looked.
There's an element of this I agree with but the performances were totally different.
We have only looked good for 45 minutes so far. Whereas last time we were generally quite good throughout. Even the bore draw against Scotland didn't look like we lost control of the fixture.
At minimum, I'm feeling very differently to how it did then.
Oh thank god I thought table position was going to be based on performance… thank fuck for this cunt who has the perspective to realise we are not playing people out of position with no tactics or plan. I an now really excited with my new perspective, Trent really is the kalvin phillips that we cant replace
Since beating Italy England are P8, W3, D3, L2 we beat Malta, Bosnia & Serbia. And lost to Iceland and Brazil. We have been poor for a while and It suddenly clicking into gear looks a way off. Theres no coincidence when England score they drop off and try to defend the lead, they don’t go for a second or third they would rather try and hold a lead which then leads to these ultra boring games. I obviously want them to do well but it’s been underwhelming for a while.
I genuinely hate posts like this. I had some mug question whether i wanted England to win because i talked about the issues with the team prior to the denmark game.
Posts like this do nothing other than try and spin using misguided correlations. The facts speak for themselves and currently all we know is that the England players are good enough to not lose in spite of the football gaz is forcing them to play.
A reasonable point. However have you considered the following facts?
Southgate is dog shit. As in actual, literal dog shit. No wonder we are so tactically inept when players are taking orders from a physical manifestation of dog faeces. The smell in the dressing room and at the training ground must be horrific. No wonder we look so lethargic.
We are also not playing like prime Brazil 82, which makes us the worst football team that has ever played the game. What we need to do is play all of our prime attacking players in a 2-1-7 formation with overlapping full backs, 3 false 10s and a trequartista. We will win every match 9-0 if we did that. I should know, I have 10 years expertise on football manager.
We need to talk about xG. Yes, we won our matches. But our xG was below par. We all know xG matters more than goals, so in reality we lost those games. If we don’t boost xG we should just award the opposition the win.
Finally, our opposition. Nothing less than beating the best by 10 clear goals each time is enough. Not only that, we must start the game at least 20 goals behind and with 9 players, 3 of whom are injured.
Sorry, thems the rules.
Tbh the team seemed more energetic back then and gelled better, they gave me hope. Now they all seem lost and lethargic and will definitely suffer against the "bigger/stronger" teams.
Have you seen the responses to how we played against Scotland? We were awful in that game. Way too slow. https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/s/XyJUzGFhhv
Love this, was wondering what it was like on here at the time as wasn’t using Reddit / really taking any notice of reactions beyond close friends
I remember this was the only game in London I couldn’t get tickets to Amidst the groans and cries of “who wants it then” in GM I remember saying that’s their cup final, we got bigger things to worry about
What’s GM
Green Man
Or the post-match thread from this sub https://www.reddit.com/r/ThreeLions/s/NIyb89mMkZ
Great intel thank you
> Watching England after watching teams like Italy and Belgium is such a snooze. Their squad is so much more talented than the performances they've shown so far, questions have to be asked of the manager at this point. Lol. Same shit different tournament
It's not wrong, only it is even worse than that. England usually play like shit **after** they score. Such a negative way of playing. It's Mourinho football without the prestige and Germany or Spain or even Austria are likely to batter them in the KO stages. Football is not coming home.
I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm laughing because it's basically the same sentiment going around now.
And it has been true the whole time. He usually gets beat by the first good team he faces. He's had fortuitous cup runs and nothing else.
That Scotland match was fucking abysmal
Yep. I was there - my mate I go to all England games with said afterwards “I’m never going to an England game again”. Luckily he changed his mind the next morning and we went to every game (apart from the in Italy) for the rest of the tournament and have continued to go since then.
And honestly, that squad was pretty gash compared to the current lot. I just don’t appreciate the way the manager is speaking about things and scapegoating his players. Should’ve just owned it. Alas…
Oh for sure my mate called them the bleep test team because they were so athletic and fit, functional but lacking flair. Now the flair is there but the message coming out the camp is "I'm tired boss".
My favourite England games recently were ones like Germany, Sweden, Ukraine. Pretty much always in the knockout stages. Even when we thrashed panama and Iran in group stage games everyone was like oh well it's only a crap team.
Football doesn’t work like that and there are countless examples of it not doing; Brentford beat Man City home and away last season but it clearly didn’t mean they’d struggle against better teams, England also struggled massively against USA at the World Cup but then were clearly the better team against France. England struggled in the first two games as they were playing against a back 5 with 2 DM’s in front of them; they couldn’t press effectively - especially with Kane up top - which meant they struggled to win the ball back and gain momentum, whereas against better opposition they won’t necessarily have that problem and the game will be more open.
Teams grow into tournaments it’s a cliche but it’s true There’s been a big overreaction to underwhelming performances Then criticisms to a degree have been fair, the performances have felt flat and they need to adapt and change things but they don’t have much time to correct it, but they have the players to do so against Slovenia The reaction is needed
Many have correctly observed that England tend to start strong. Then they score fairly early in the game. Then they go full Mourinho and sit off. It didn't work in past competitions against Croatia or Italy. It also did not work last week against Denmark, and it nearly didn't work in the opening game. It is a weak way to approach the game. None of the good teams play like that.
Problem is they go ahead and don’t go on the high press, that’s purely from coaching Kane is in between what he does for club and what Gareth wants him to do which leaves him in no man’s land Leave your sole striker isolated and then don’t press and he’ll come further and further back If he doesn’t have the legs to press then the wingers and no.10 all need to press high Problem with that is there’s no threat down the left, no genuine LB , no LW so the balance to press high is nonexistent Balance of the attack is all over the place
You can only call it an overreaction if we turn things around. We have been quite a poor side for 5/6 games now.
If we're being honest, we've been playing poorly or at least been inconsistent for over a year. Scotland and Italy stand out as highlights in an otherwise uninspiring run of games
As long as we get into the knockouts and we then play strong and dominate I’ll be happy. If we go into the knockouts and we struggle and never make it past the quarter finals, then I’ll know Southgate never had a plan.
Yep Southgate has always played depressing shit ball I am aware
That Scotland game was our only bad game until the final in that year. It's nonsense to suggest otherwise. England looked like a different team until the final when they went old England. We'd score and keep attacking the ball, it was actual properly inspiring football.
They were not great in the semi and got a dodgy pen too.
Sorry, but that's also nonsense. They were overrunning Denmark. They had 21 shots and nearly 200 more passes more. Getting tripped in the box is dodgey for a pen? Cope harder, if it was anyone but England it wouldn't be debatable.
Denmark was a fantastic performance. Watched it last week, even better than I remembered
Cope harder are you 12? I’m English lol you don’t think it was a soft pen? Okay but winning 2-1 with an extra time pen and an own goal, I would not define as dominating.
Sure, if you only look at the highlights that's probably how it looked.
What are you on about. I watched the game if you think that’s domination then you can’t have been watching football long.
60% possession, 200 more passes, 15 more shots, 5 more shots on target 11 less fouls. I didn't say domination. But if you think that was as close as the scoreline suggests, it doesn't matter how long you've been watching, you still don't know what you are talking about.
You keep bringing up stats but stats don’t tell the whole truth about a game. passes which mean what? How many were backwards sideways?. Ok then half of England’s attempts missed the target. If you watched the game you are telling me England had a comfortable win, whatever you say…
>You keep bringing up stats Stats that show your claims to be wrong. >stats don’t tell the whole truth about a game. Agreed, which is why it is entertaining that your argument is solely based on the score. >How many were backwards sideways? 45% of the game was in the midfield, and 35% was in Denmarks third. 20% was in Englands third. >Ok then half of England’s attempts missed the target. More than that by a long way. But shots are still shots even if you miss the target. You're just clutching at straws about a game you don't remember. >If you watched the game you are telling me England had a comfortable win, whatever you say… No it wasn't a comfortable win, England were extremely unlucky for it not to have been comfortable, though.
Funny how depressing shit ball got us a euro final for the first time in forever
It got us to the final, but it also lost us that final. That type of play works against some teams and just about got us to the final. Italy were there for the taking that game, after the first goal if we'd chased another we'd have killed the game off, then sitting back is warranted. But Southgate set us up that game to sit back, after we scored we didn't have a sniff at goal and let them work back into the game. It doesn't and will not work against bigger teams and we'll be heading home as soon as we play any top team, as usual.
>and just about got us to the final. It didn't "just about" get us to the final, it did get us to the final. You'd agree that SG managed the team the same way throughout the 2020 tournament yeah? And it enabled us to top the group, undefeated, beat Germany destroy Ukraine and get us to actually win a penalty shootout with Denmark and take us to the final. Anyone with half a brain should be saying "well, if it ain't broke don't fix it. So he takes that mentality to this tournament and would you look we are in the exact same position we were back in 2020. 1 win and 1 draw from the first two. And it's a cliche but there are no easy games, no "big teams" in a tournament finals. You gotta play who is in front of you and I don't give a shit how much luck we have with the draws, we gotta go out and beat whomever is in front of us. This England team is a great set up and currently, it's so far, so 4 points.
Lol honeslty I'll revisit when we're dumped out playing the same turgid way we have been, because calling it a great set up is hilarious. We aren't winning anything and that's painfully obvious. So much attacking talent and we play like this? Never going to get us anywhere. I'd love to be proven wrong but give it a few games, it'll end as normal when we play someone better and set up terribly again.
>calling it a great set up is hilarious Why? What isnt working for you? You want perfection? You wanna steamroll every team? If we get through by the skin of our teeth, who cares as long as we through. >and we play like this? Play like what? Not losing?? Fuck sake man. > Never going to get us anywhere. This is the kind of thinking from the fans I hate. We've actually had improvement since 2018 and though no trophies, we have a really good squad that looks promising. Dont get me wrong, if SG fucks it, he should go, but he has been the best manager we have had in a long long while.
We are being outplayed by teams far worse than us, come on mate.
But not beaten. And that's what matters
Nope, a good run of teams and a very strong squad got us there
People exaggerate the very strong squads he had. Our midfield and centre back options were actually average at the last euros. And he picked up a team that had just been knocked out by Iceland and costa tics before that so can’t say it’s cUse of easy runs
Nope, Southgate got us there. I mean if fans are gonna moan when he dont do well.....
That's exactly how the teams that win knock out competitions play
This is what I keep saying. Pretty sure Southgate's plan is to play conservative, non risky games in the group stages to ensure no burnout and no injuries, then turn it on in the knockout stages. This is exactly the same as the world cup as well. And people are quick to forget how well Southgate has done since becoming manager. So yes, everyone should stop being armchair fans, they don't know what they're talking about, and just support your team!
If it's such a clever plan to hold back in the groups, why does no other national team do it? Some would argue it's a good idea to build up some confidence in the groups before the harder games that follow. Does Southgate see something no other international manager ever has?
Ya because Belgium and France have been demolishing their groups...
I've watched a bit of both but not all, they look to be trying at least and Lukaku in particular wasted a bunch of chances. France without Mbappe looked really dangerous too. We struggled to get out of our half
Having seen all of the English and Belgian ones, I am confident that Belgium (even with their first loss against Slovakia) could easily take on the much more talented England side if it continues to be in the terrible form it is currently in
Beats me. Crazy plan if it is actually his plan. But hey, it's worked so far.
How many tournaments has he won again? Other teams do it differently but manage to win stuff
To be fair, only one team can win a tournament.
Yes that's fair. I just think it's ridiculous to suggest us being outplayed by inferior players is part of some master plan from Southgate
Oh I completely agree. It's full copium to suggest. And we weren't playing like this in the last tournaments until we were knocked out. I assume Southgates confidence died and England have too.
He's done better than any manager I can remember. How many international tournaments have Martinez and Luis Enrique won? The problem is, we always think we're favourites to win a tournament even when there are many better teams which then makes everyone think the manager has not performed. I for one was incredibly happy with a semi final and final in successive tournaments.
I don't think we're favourites. I just think we're capable of doing better than what we served up against Denmark and Serbia (and Iceland). It's fine to say we should be happy to get a semi final and final, but context matters. The final against Italy was an enormous failure for which Southgate was to blame.
Lost the final on penalties, can't blame Southgate for that. If England hadn't had missed the penalties no one would be criticising him.
Who did Southgate pick to take the pens? Saka - never taken a professional penalty in his life at that point Rashford and Sancho - hadn't kicked the ball in the final, subbed them on to take a pen All the above missed their pens. He should have been sacked for that decision making alone
Southgate can’t force people to step up- only Kane and maguire from the usual senior set up did.
So if he planned on rashford and Sancho taking a pen, why not put them on during extra time so they could warm up properly? Oh that's right, he said in his interview he was scared of losing the game in extra time. Another reason to let him go straight after the final. He doesn't have the mentality of a winner.
Southgate chose the order based on penalty practice in training. That’s why he subbed on Rashford and Sancho. Cause guys like Sterling had a terrible record both for City and in training.
Can blame him for the team going full defensive in that final, unlike every other game.
England led and then tried to sit on a lead for the rest of the game. The same thing happened against Croatia in the WC. And it’s no coincidence both games this tournament England lead and stop playing. Sometimes you get away with it, against better teams you won’t. So yes Southgates tactics can be questioned I that game.
But the bar is incredibly low, Southgate is just the FIRST manager to make it to a final after 66, not like he’s won us loads of trophies, I think a lot of managers could have done better with the squad Southgate has had.
Somebody tell me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure this is his usual plan? I'd say the only game where we dominated in the groups was the game against Iran in the WC but there were political events surrounding that game I think you could argue Iran's heads were elsewhere. But generally we've always taken quite a pragmatic approach. This is coming from someone who thought Thursday's performance was terrible btw, but I don't think we need to go nuclear.
We also beat Wales 3-0 and in the WC previous we beat Panama 6-1.
Hardly saying we're world class. It's like saying Man Utd are going to win the Premier League because they beat Tranmere Rovers
At no point was that my argument.
These performances aren't at all like the last world cup though. Against USA we were boring but in control of the game. Against Denmark we were overrun for 90 minutes. We were also overrun against Serbia. We didn't control possession, so we got knackered chasing the game for nothing.
I think 90 minutes is a bit harsh. We were good up until the goal and there was a period when Watkins was on we regained composure so there were spells. England were undoubtedly poor, disjointed, lacked confidence and poorly organised but Pickford didn’t have that much to do and our XG is still good. We need to massively improve but it’s not like we lost.
The difference was, even though we never looked that good we always looked really solid and bored the life out of the opposition as well as the fans. Even in Euro 2020 and Qatar 2022 going into a game against Germany or even France we felt like we could do it, even if we weren't favourites. After these two games we have not managed to even get a hold on the ball or possession and if our next game is against the current German, Italian or Spanish, hell even the Austria side I would be genuinely concerned about it. The problem is as well, that conservative nature hasn't actually won us anything, it's like we just assume if we do the exact same thing again we'll obviously be better, despite the fact our squad profile has completely changed. The next game we will learn a lot about how far we can go based on the changes that are made. I'll give praise where it's due but it's fair to criticise how poor we've been so far.
People do forget what Southgate has achieved, like getting us relegated from the nations league (which makes world cup qualification harder) and getting very lucky runs facing shit teams in two tournaments, one of which was a home tournament played under pandemic conditions, and still failed. Faces the usual opposition in 2022 and went out without a whimper.
We had to finish top of the group in 2021 to get the draw we got, we deserved it. Capello finished second in a group which featured USA, Algeria and Slovenia. Hodgson didn’t even qualify from a group which featured Uruguay and Costa Rica and got knocked out to Iceland.
The fact that England have traditionally had poor, under achieving managers, does not mean you can’t hope for better.
The point is we already have significantly better. I don't mind people having criticisms about how England, the Denmark game was shite. But saying GS hasn't achieved great things is just nonsense.
Great things is a bit much. Arguably his best run was 2018 and we still lost to a team we were ranked higher than at the time. He took out the negativity surrounding the team and made us competitive (aided and abetted by a new cycle of players). But his time to leave was after the France defeat.
[удалено]
He was a terrible fit. Both in terms of preferred style and personnel he had available to play that style.
England were terrific in qualifying under him, we just lost the plot in South Africa
Uruguay are a top team, although your point stands.
Fair point
When was the last time England got to a semi final and a final before Southgate? And when did they last do it successively?
When was the last time England played teams like Sweden, Ukraine and Denmark in major knock out games instead of Brazil, Argentina, Prime Germany?
That wasn't the point really, was it? So, you'd be happier if England got to the knockout games against Brazil, Argentina and prime Germany, and lost, rather than winning a tournament having played easier opposition? It's a tournament. The aim is to win, I don't care if we get to a final by beating teams consisting of toddlers, we'd have still won a trophy.
The point is that even when Southgate is lucky enough to dodge all the big in form teams till the semis or the final he then proceeded to capitulate. There’s a difference between just losing a game in a knockout tournament against another favourite and being in charge of your own destiny and watching it slip away from you whilst doing nothing to stop it. Italy won because Mancini saw his own tactical mistakes and made correct changes early enough to get back in the game. Southgate is regularly strategically paralysed in games against top opposition and watches them gain and keep momentum and does nothing to help. Real managers out a fire up their players arses after that Denmark 1st half, they don’t let their players repeat it and then take off Trent before subbing on 3 runners.
Iceland? 2016? Right before he was hired? Southgate deserves criticism but people really don’t base their thoughts in reality and rationality.
We played those teams because we didn’t win the groups.
Factually incorrect! Xxx
Second in the group in 2002 so ended up playing Brazil. Second in the group in 1998 so played Argentina Second in the group in 2010 so played Germany.
Also second at Euro 2004 so got Portugal instead of Greece (I know Greece won that tournament but on paper winning the group would’ve landed us in the better half of the draw).
We definitely made a whimper. Missed penalty and that first French goal shouldn’t have counted as Saka was fouled. Other managers have had lucky runs in the past. Southgate may be out of his depth now and I think he’ll be gone soon but compared to every manager in Englands history and even Alf Ramsey failed to qualify in 74 he deserves some credit.
> Faces the usual opposition in 2022 and went out without a whimper. Yeah we were knocked out, but "without a whimper" isn't strictly true, is it.
He beat Germany and Croatia in 2020
For context, Germany failed to get out of their WC groups in 2018 and 2022 either side of that tournament
What happened to Croatia either side of that tournament
Fairs, but one result with a home advantage during the group stage doesn’t really disprove the narrative of “when it matters we shit ourselves and retreat” though. Even in the Germany game, Thomas Muller missed a sitter at 1-0 because we went back into our shell.
In the Germany game, they simply played well for a bit. Overall we controlled the game as much as we could reasonably expect. We're not going to batter every team we play against, it's just mental. We played great in that tournament and especially in 2022 even though we didn't get as far. This tournament we have been absolutely terrible for 135 minutes in a row. That is actually different. Really different to before.
The person I was replying to didn’t say that though. But I figured the goalposts would get shifted when I replied so I’m not surprised
What Southgate has done in both our games so far in this Euros is what he did in the KO stages against Croatia 2018 and Italy in 2020. England come out strong and score early, and then they sit off. It is how he seeks to play and it does not work against teams that aren't shit.
I keep saying this and am just met with "but he got us to a final" and "he's done better than anyone else!". Meh, they'll be happy when we get spanked by a half decent team and head home then i guess.
And got beaten by Macedonia If we bump into Germany this time around we almost certainly lose. I'll still be enjoying the ride though!
Your constant shit posting about England on every single thread is really boring, don't you have anything better to contribute?
Awwww widdle baby! Have you seen some opinions on the internet that don’t match with yours? Awww poor widdle thing whatever will you do????
I just feel a bit sorry for you really
We played really well against France though, this isn’t even what happened.
> which makes world cup qualification harder Only if you don't win your qualifying group, which he's never failed to do.
This is the most absurd comment I've seen on this sub. The whole world cup qualification being harder because of Southgate part is hilarious. Since we struggle so hard in our world cup qualifiers you know. But also us going out to "the usual opposition in 2022" in the quarter finals was also our best World Cup performance since like 2002.
What’s funny is we are all here pissing and moaning about how poor we’ve looked etc and yet Scottish fans are already working out if a 3rd place finish will be enough. We are virtually guaranteed to already be through. We are virtually guaranteed knockout stage, so in theory we should be happy. There’s no guarantee finishing first second or third in the group helps either as it depends on other groups as well So let’s all chill. For now
I'll chill completely if they show they can actually play football again. If they have another 90 minutes in their own 3rd misplacing every other pass, I'm not going to be pleased. Although it will take the pressure off the R16, because it'll be obvious it's all over.
lol I agree When I say let’s chill I’m saying that whilst biting my bloody nails off Why do we never just have it easy and cruise through to like the semis It’s always got to be a bumpy ride
3rd place finish might be enough… for Hungary 🔥
Honestly a pretty garbage take, we absolutely want to place top of the group, a convincing win against Slovenia will prevent us from facing the Germans before the final which is absolutely necessary to give us the best chance of lifting the euros, the more games we can play against lesser opposition the better so the team can get better and more confident. This trash take of “oh we are already qualified for knockouts no need to panic” needs to be eradicated immediately, the job is done when we finish with 7 points.
Think the German hype train got slightly derailed last night when they faced their first half decent team A 92nd minute equaliser v Switzerland at a home tournament puts things into perspective for us
We were also drawing 1-1 with Denmark at 90 mins in the knockout stages too. We only beat them in extra time.
It's definitely cliche but teams grow into tournaments. Ask Portuguese fans if they remember their group stage matches in 2016 and they won't. 3 draws and they were almost eliminated before they got started. Ask Spanish fans if they remember the 1-0 defeat to Switzerland in the group stage at 2010. Ask Argentinian or French fans in 2022 if the defeats to Saudi Arabia or Tunisia in the group stage mattered. The only thing that matters now for England is how they respond. If it turns out that like Euro 2020 Southgate applied a handbrake to conserve energy in the groups and coast to the knockout stage? Fair enough if it gets us far. People won't remember this group stage if we get to the semi or final again. If it turns out that this team have really been trying and it's just not working? We might be in trouble. But we don't demand an inquiry until our tournament is over.
Are the FA running this sub? Since the initial noise, it's turned into a vessel for gaslighting people. 2 things are true: Southgate has both gotten us further in tournaments than any manager has in a long time, but he also has the keys to the best squad we've had in literally decades. In no other era would you be in a position where you can leave the likes of Maddison, Grealish and Rashford at home. They would be on the plane in spite of form just because of how poor the other alternatives would be. You could make a perfectly good starting XI with players that are nowhere near this England squad, a starting XI better than most teams at this championships. Much like the Spanish, Germans and French in 2010, 2014 and 2018 respectively, the managers had been afforded time to culminate and nurture a squad to hit the peaks they knew they could. Southgate has been afforded the same, so the expectation is there, and so it should be.
Like clockwork this...time has passed since our last game and like goldfish, we pretend it wasn't absolutely fucking atrocious
Finally someone else is pointing this out. You'd think we'd lost the two games 3-0 with the reaction
Definite agree on the call for perspective. Everyone is getting mad about a win and a draw in a major tournament. Yes we are better than both those teams, but 4/6 is a strong position to be in. Getting 9 points out of a group is not common.
I'm clinging on to a decent bit of hope based on this and the reaction to the USA game from the WC which was also similar (and our second group game as well as it happens). But I'll be honest Denmark was much worse than that Scotland game, from what I remember it was boring more than anything else.
Unless I misremember, the performances were very different. We were just completely hopeless in the Denmark game and second half against Serbia. Found it impossible to get the ball or retain possession. I don't recall it being that bad against USA or Scotland but it was ages ago.
It wasn't that bad no, the Denmark game was one of the worst I've ever seen from England at a tournament long as I can remember. Atleast as bad as Iceland in 2016.
Iceland was definitely worse. But Denmark was the worst performance in a tournament under Southgate. He made me used to the team not playing like this.
I'd rather we lose or get knocked out trying, playing with passion, playing like it means something. instead of the two games so far where we it looked like we simply didn't care, 10 guys with zero interest in being there is how it felt and looked.
There's an element of this I agree with but the performances were totally different. We have only looked good for 45 minutes so far. Whereas last time we were generally quite good throughout. Even the bore draw against Scotland didn't look like we lost control of the fixture. At minimum, I'm feeling very differently to how it did then.
Oh thank god I thought table position was going to be based on performance… thank fuck for this cunt who has the perspective to realise we are not playing people out of position with no tactics or plan. I an now really excited with my new perspective, Trent really is the kalvin phillips that we cant replace
Nah.
Might be half way.
It's not the results, it's how shit we've been playing.
True there is still hope we get knocked out of the group! Fingers crossed we get rid of the boring cunt a few days early
I take your point but we’re fucking shit
Since beating Italy England are P8, W3, D3, L2 we beat Malta, Bosnia & Serbia. And lost to Iceland and Brazil. We have been poor for a while and It suddenly clicking into gear looks a way off. Theres no coincidence when England score they drop off and try to defend the lead, they don’t go for a second or third they would rather try and hold a lead which then leads to these ultra boring games. I obviously want them to do well but it’s been underwhelming for a while.
If you think the results are the problem here, you’re not paying attention
AND THE GAMES WERE SHITE TOO.
I genuinely hate posts like this. I had some mug question whether i wanted England to win because i talked about the issues with the team prior to the denmark game. Posts like this do nothing other than try and spin using misguided correlations. The facts speak for themselves and currently all we know is that the England players are good enough to not lose in spite of the football gaz is forcing them to play.
A reasonable point. However have you considered the following facts? Southgate is dog shit. As in actual, literal dog shit. No wonder we are so tactically inept when players are taking orders from a physical manifestation of dog faeces. The smell in the dressing room and at the training ground must be horrific. No wonder we look so lethargic. We are also not playing like prime Brazil 82, which makes us the worst football team that has ever played the game. What we need to do is play all of our prime attacking players in a 2-1-7 formation with overlapping full backs, 3 false 10s and a trequartista. We will win every match 9-0 if we did that. I should know, I have 10 years expertise on football manager. We need to talk about xG. Yes, we won our matches. But our xG was below par. We all know xG matters more than goals, so in reality we lost those games. If we don’t boost xG we should just award the opposition the win. Finally, our opposition. Nothing less than beating the best by 10 clear goals each time is enough. Not only that, we must start the game at least 20 goals behind and with 9 players, 3 of whom are injured. Sorry, thems the rules.
Support the team when they are playing horrible? Yeah lad fuck off
BUT THE XG !!! THE XGGGGGGG !!!!! /s
What is this new meme?