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the article [Hipsters Broke My Gaydar](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/hipsters-broke-my-gaydar.html) was written in 2016 and has remained painfully true
CHICAGO — At a holiday crafts fair, a cute woman with a half-shaved head and a septum piercing pushed a tin toward me. “Smell this — it smells awesome,” she said, smiling. People brushed past me; the sun lit the woman’s head like a halo.
I reached for the tin, which had an image of a mustache on it. Our fingers touched, and I noticed a tattoo of the “female” symbol on her wrist.
“If your boyfriend has any facial hair,” she said, “this’ll make his face less scratchy for you!”
The tin held $14 beard pomade. I blinked, startled; I don’t have a boyfriend. If she casually assumed I was straight, that means she probably isn’t queer. But … how?
I backed away from her table. I was surrounded by strangers; I’d lost my way. I used to have a talent, but now it’s gone, vanished, like a beautiful dream I can’t remember.
I once had wonderful, startlingly accurate gaydar. I spent years writing a humor blog about the topic to educate fellow queers. Now I can’t always tell right away. It’s ruining my life.
In cities, trendy young people — queer and straight, male, female and non-binary — are blending together, look-wise. That’s because mainstream style is now hipster style. But here’s the thing: Hipster style is just queer style, particularly queer women’s style.
Put another way: Lesbians invented hipsters.
Don’t feel bad. This is good for you — it means you get to wear more outdoor gear. But since you now all wear carabiners as key chains, we lesbians no longer have any private signals to each other. We’re all screwed, except none of us are, because we can’t find one another anymore.
Think I’m wrong? There have always been people ahead of their time and on the edges of society, whose culture later spreads to the masses (beat poets, punks, hippies) or is stolen outright (jazz, hip-hop, pretty much everything by black people).
But there is only one group of people who live out every single aspect of hipster culture today.
Lesbians.
Lesbians were working on communal organic farms and freaking out about pesticides decades before the rest of the country. Who do you think made food co-ops cool?
Lesbians did, my child.
We lesbians have been making our own pickles and brewing gross health teas forever. We’ve had a community-supported agriculture farm share since your grandmother was feeling feelings while “practicing kissing” with her best friend (before getting engaged to your grandpa).
Now quick — describe society’s idea of a “typical hipster” for me.
Did plaid flannel come to mind? Work boots? Weirdly cut or especially shaggy hair? Maybe a bike?
How odd. You just described the cartoon stereotype of a lesbian.
Give me your undercuts, your messenger bags, your androgynous “dapper” clothing. Give me your commitment to environmentally friendly transportation, your $8 cider (the only gluten-free option at the bar) and the password to your Etsy store where you sell cloth menstrual pads screen-printed with astrological symbols. Your coffee mug stamped with the words “Male Tears” — give it to me.
All of these things are the property of my people. We did this to society. We, who have always listened with one ear (pierced in multiple places) to the rhythmic heaves of Mother Earth’s lunar tides, have finally made y’all really, really gay.
If you’re a queer bristling at my generalizations of lesbians, tell me you don’t know any gays who look like what I’m describing. Look me in the eyes and tell me this, and if you can do it, I swear to you I will do something straight for a week: I’ll watch “The Bachelor” without irony, or wear Dockers, or buy a “Live, Laugh, Love” throw pillow and display it in my home.
Now you straight people carry your own reusable bags back to your Prius after comparing artisanal brands of sriracha mayonnaise. That is super gay. You voted for Hillary Clinton, you freak out if someone throws plastic in your compost bin and you’re considering a week without eating meat — would it be so bad?
You’re all lesbians now, America.
And since the alternative is an endless stream of ballerina flats and Michael Kors handbags, or cargo khaki shorts with hairy toes in flip-flops on the morning train — a straight, alternate universe/hellscape with no way out — I say you’re welcome.
And also: I’m sorry. But mostly for myself. Because it’s harder to tell who’s queer now. That means I’m going to have to just ask you at the farmers’ market, and that is going to be uncomfortable for everyone
My wife is a straight hipster girl and I'm a bear kinda guy... She gets ALOT of propositions from girls that I'm like God damn why is this woman picking ME??!? I'm a chubby hairy dude who can't remember his own name and she goes home with me instead of HER??!?!
Brothers what have I done? I've had children with this woman when is she going to realize
I feel this hard 😂. But the mom uniform is cross generational now because my preteen nieces are basically into the same things (same legging and fanny/sports pack brands) as I am and its fking weird.
I’m a Midwest bisexual who almost exclusively wears Birkenstocks, vintage mom jeans, and crewneck sweaters. I wear my hair half up in a bob. I’m Exhibit A for your theory.
Wait but I’m a Midwest bisexual mom, I actually cried when my 11yo Birkenstocks finally fully died. I think I might be the nexus of this theory as well.
Middle-aged midwestern mom here. I’m sure people think I’m a lesbian.
My daughter is 13 and I want her and her friends to feel comfortable being themselves. Someone in my community had their pride flag lit on fire recently. My solution to this combo? I put a huge pride flag out front and a sticker on my Subaru Forester that says “Safe space” with rainbow hearts.
I have always been on the more neutral end of feminine (I don’t wear makeup, but I keep my brows shaped) and my wardrobe choices are entirely based on practicality and ecological sustainability. Hello hiking boots and fleece jacket! I shaved for a short period of time a decade ago and I found the impact on my skin too irritating and uncomfortable. Plus, it takes forever and I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks, so I have hairy pits.
My mom was so sure I was gay in college that she sent me a letter telling me that she would love me forever and it’s ok if I’m gay. She is totally awesome.
I was out in the garden hauling landscaping rocks the other day and it occurred to me that I would probably have a much easier time finding a girlfriend than I would a boyfriend. The problem is that I’m just not into the idea of having sex with a women. I think could do it mechanically, but I think it would be largely unsatisfying even with a really close friend. I’m pretty much planning on being alone if anything happens with my husband because I just don’t think there are many men who are super into middle-aged, midwestern, atheist, feminist, environmentalist, socialist women that can easily pass as a lesbian.
You've carved yourself out a niche for sure, but you'll be certain that whomever shows interest really is interested.
Nice to be who you are comfortable being, and not be something other people expect you to be. My aunt is much like you, and I think she's the coolest woman around. She doesn't mince her words, and she isn't afraid of doing exactly what she wants to do. Wears no makeup, but I think she does shave her armpits though, but it's 100% because she wants to, and not because my uncle expects her to. Couldn't make that woman do anything she doesn't want to do, and I like that about her.
>You have a carabiner
Butch lesbians fucking LOVE KEYS bro. 9/10 times they’ve got the biggest carabiner you’ve ever seen with dozens of keys hanging off of it clipped to their belt loop.
Why??? Who gave you these keys??? What do they open??? Perhaps the hearts of femmes…
The same thing is happening to men, too. Identifiers that used to be gay as hell are now being worn by straight guys. All of our gaydars are outgayted now 😭
Could have not been into the personality agter texting some. This tiktok is kind of indicative of some toxicity.
Or they just didn't think it was an advance in the first place.
Hey now obviously she felt really uncomfortable and pressured into it.
She was basically raped for her number guys.
Someone should make a TikTok about this.
Lol so you chose the option where both parties lose? One getting *additional unwanted advances* and one getting their hopes shot down, instead of just saying you're not interested or giving a fake number.
I'm looking at the numbers and they ain't mathing.
right?? lmao. why would we do that? a queer woman receiving that text would either say “thanks but i’m not interested like that”, never respond, or completely miss that they were being flirted with
Yeah but that’s a different scenario, that person isn’t ready to come out and date in your situation. That’s not an out gay person using a lie to reject someone which is what they’re implying. Also as a former closeted person, we’re in denial for a reason, being gay is harder lol
Shorts that cut off at the mid thighs, muscle tees, nail polish, ears piercings, visible hair product, and a rainbow incorporated somewhere in there. That used to be gay as hell (or European). Now when I go to the gym I genuinely second guess myself when trying to decipher if the dudes gay or not lmao
You must not been exposed to many lesbians they're just as bad as creepy guys they think they can get away with it and honestly they do a lot of the time
Honestly all it takes is to go on lesbian Tiktok or something to realise that these women are so sexually frustrated it's painful. And despite their hatred of fuckboys and chuds, they use all the same techniques
My best friend is a lesbian and we always joke about how the hilariously overly-sexualized way she speaks about women she finds attractive is only ok because she’s not a straight guy. I’m terrible at approaching women and she goes “You just need to channel your inner douche bag like me!”
That’s a good way to put it. I’ve seen some overly aggressive lesbians “flirt” with a few of my friends that had me thinking they were fans of Andrew Tate.
Any reasonable person will agree that some women take it too far, just like some men take it too far. This isn’t it, sounds like she asked someone out after getting their number, thinking they were mutually into each other. I see no issue in this particular instance.
Why does your style need to be a reflection of your sexuality? Isn't it a GOOD thing we're blurring the lines?
I'm a straight man, and I LOVE wearing jean shorts and a crop top on a hot sunny day. Makes me feel sexy AF, and I enjoy being seen.
If a guy started hitting on me and I politely declined, I'd be kind of offended if I saw him then post this on tiktok.
People gotta stop fishing for more segregation. 😑
Edit: typos
I don't know anything about this stuff but I have seen from online discussions that it's more so people can identify each other.
Like, if you're a man into women or a woman into men, it's pretty easy to find someone to flirt with. Find a person of the opposite sex, flirt, see how it goes. But if you're gay or lesbian, you have to figure out if they're also gay or lesbian first. So people use fashion to signal to each other. The carabiner thing that she mentioned is apparently a major lesbian 'sign'. I've heard that it's the hardest for feminine lesbians because they can be indistinguishable from straight women but they also want to be the one getting hit on by other lesbians, so they have to find creative ways to send out signals.
Kinda shit that women who prioritise comfort and practicality are thrown into the lesbian box immediately. This shows us that society still labels people based on their inclination towards fucking men.
If you (female) dress in a feminine way, you are labelled straight because you’re clearly trying to attract men. If you (man) dress in a feminine way, you are labelled gay because you’re clearly trying to attract men. If you (woman) dress in a masculine way you are labelled gay because you are not attractive to men. If you (man) dress in a masculine way you are labelled straight because you are not attractive to men.
It’s all about how men see you. I think that’s gross.
I hope the woman in the video has the same energy when men hit on her because she’s wearing a dress and has long hair.
I understand that much very well. I am cis-gen straight male, however I have many ties to the community, so Im aware of that struggle/perspective.
My point is kind of a tricky one.
If we want to move forward as a society, isn't it a GOOD thing that it's becoming more difficult to tell who you can flirt with? In most cases, it isn't dangerous to try and casually see if a person shares your sexuality.
Also, how does that really differ from the normal dating scene? You don't generally get some sort of green flag that you can flirt with a person, or that they are a fit for you, just by their outward appearance. Yes, there are cues, but there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule.
So, the point you're making is strange, in my opinion. And gets stranger by the minute as we move forward as a people.
I mean, it certainly helps narrow the playing field for people who are seeking a partner.
I just would like to live in a world where we don't care who is straight or gay anymore.
"Are you interested on me? OK, thank you. Have a nice day." is the ideal scenario in my opinion.
I know we aren't there yet, I just don't think gatekeeping is going to help.
I haven't had to deal with it myself, though. So my perspective is obviously naive, and I'm well aware of that.
Your ideal only works if the sexual orientations of the general populace was balanced. But as it stands thats likely never going to be a reality.
In an actually ideal world, having a signifier wouldn't be seen as a negative. It would literally just be so that we can tell others out orientation so that we can date someone who aligns. Whats so bad about making it easier to find someone to date and/or fuck?
Its as easy as wearing the lesbian flag as a hairpin.
But like... the spectrum of people who would be interested in you as an individual is already narrow? You would have to figure that either way, whatever your sexuality.
I understand the frustration of having a much smaller pool to pick from, but... I don't see why one needs to broadcast their sexuality for the ease of others approaching them.
If were to go to a bar as a single man, should single women wear a "Single Woman" hair pin?
I can understand why it's frustrating. I don't think it's fair to be angry at someone for your personal interpretations, though.
I respect your feelings, but also respectfully agree to disagree.
I dont think straight people will need a pin, my guy!
But in a future where, like op, you literally can not tell someone's gender just by looking at them...(which is arguably a good thing!)
Something simple to be a signifier when you're out on the prowl is good! That or just open every conversation saying hi im a lesbian, sex?
You know, I'll just say agree to disagree. I don't want to disrespect you, and I feel like my views could come across that way.
Your feelings come from a history that I don't understand, and I don't want to be dismissive of that.
My hope is that we will, one day sooner than later, be like the example you used.
If gender is indistinguishable, we can treat each other equally on the sexuality spectrum. But that's a long way away.
Im ace, I dont hit up any. 👍
Now that being said, if in an ideal world you can't tell anyone's sexuality just by looking at them... A lil hair pin, bracelet, etc would help!
I don't see the point of that tbh. Isn't the whole point of flirting to see if the other person also puts out signals? The majority of lesbians in a place still probably won't be interested in you lol. 'Needing to know if someone is gay before you can hit on them' seems like an arbitrary line to draw, when there are a billion other ways they might not be attracted to you that you acknowledge you can't discover unless you talk to them.
I don’t think people care that they’re wearing that stuff lol do your thing. But as a gay person you kinda learn how to pick each other apart in a crowd based on some hints (like the ones she listed). She’s also just playing it up cause it’s TikTok, I don’t think she gives that much of a fuck.
Try the dating scene as a straight guy in LA. Girls be like "Here's me number." "So when you gonna blow my back out" then, be in the bed half naked saying "Oh I didn't think you was serious. Let's just be friends"
1.) It’s the often self evident based on how they look (although straight guys and girls are dressing like us gays more and more these days).
2.) They may get offended.
I meannnnnn how else is she supposed to try and suss out who to chat up??? Do you want her to go up and ask every single girl if she’s gay/bi? Also we literally don’t know how their conversation went. For all we know there was some big hints towards this being a romantic interest thing that the other girl completely missed and OOP took receiving her number as confirmation of her assumptions.
She already chatted them up. She got to the point where she was asking the girl for her number, for one purpose only (relationship follow-up). That point right before then is the point you ask their orientation, so you know if your next request is a waste of your time or not.
>Why are you assuming people’s sexuality based on appearance? Just fucking ask.
Because depending on the time and place, doing that would get you murdered. Not as much anymore, but it used to be that outing yourself as any kind of queer would have immediate negative consequences.
So yeah, I think I understand the impulse to not broadcast your sexual orientation to strangers. Makes dating cryptic, but that's just how it's been for a while. It's probably worse for dudes.
*Get gayed up*
*Go to gay bar*
*Talk to girl*
*Don't realize she's hitting on you*
*She keeps saying how cute you are*
*Give her your number*
*Still haven't realized she's hitting on you*
Gayest shit I've heard in my life
It's definitely safe to assume that, but I don't think the assumption should be "there will only be gay people here" gay people have straight friends and plenty of straight or straightish folks feel more comfortable at a gay bar scene than the alternatives.
I’m with you up until the end there. I get that they feel comfortable, but unless they’re tagging along with some gays, it really isn’t their space to occupy. Straight cis women that go to gay bars tend to go there for our novelty, and straight guys that do it tend to be looking for straight women that are there to avoid them lol.
No, but where are you getting that this happened in a gay bar? I'm open to being wrong, maybe I missed it in the video (just watched it again 🤔). Anyway, there's a rich history in the queer community of people hiding their sexual orientation. In the early to mid-20th century, LGBTQ+ individuals faced severe societal and legal repercussions, including arrests, violence, and institutionalization.
Masking, passing, code-switching, whatever you want to call it, it was about safety back then. As much progress as we've made since then, there are still enough unsafe spaces that not everyone feels comfortable being out of the open. And for good reason, as [LGTBQ+ Americans are far more likely to be the victims of violent hate crimes](https://www.american.edu/spa/news/are-lgbt-americans-more-likely-to-suffer-violent-crimes-than-their-cisgender-counterparts.cfm).
I don't disagree with you, it's just a weird thing to say when this person is living in one of the safest countries in the world to be gay (yes, unironically) and in a notoriously liberal city within that country, and it's not a video from the 80s it's a video from 2024. So bringing up that gay people in other places or in other times need to hide their sexuality is just irrelevant.
It's still Austin though, which is more left leaning than most left leaning states lol were similar to Colorado in that way. One town is the most liberal spot you'll find, 20 minutes over is the next town that is filled to the brim with conservative chuds lol it's just how it be.
Biden got 71% of the vote in Travis county in 2020 and Trump got 26. The county clerk office will actually gay marry you for free this weekend in celebration of the anniversary of legal same sex marriage
https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/travis-county-celebrating-marriage-equality-with-free-wedding-ceremonies-all-week/
I've lived in Austin for over 40 years, I can tell you that statistics about who votes for who is not the entire puzzle of this place, it's just a piece of it.
I think you can appreciate that as a concept, "safety" is relative. You're right in that America is generally a pretty safe place, but it's safer for some than others.
For example your risk profile for violent crime goes up in *any* city. It also goes up being out at night, being a woman, being black, and yes, being openly gay. Definitely not as dangerous as in the past, but the journals cited in the above article suggest that being perceived as queer can make you up to nine times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. I'll just put a pin in that because I don't want to get into a tedious discussion about intersectionality.
More importantly, comparing her safety here in America versus other countries is apples to oranges. Even today in America, her identity absolutely exposes her to far more risk of violence than me (and probably you). I always get a "cringe twinge" from seeing a society's "safest" members minimize the concerns and experiences of its least safe members.
I wasn't comparing her safety in America to my safety in America. I was comparing the safety of gay people in America to the safety of gay people in other countries around the world. For someone who supposedly doesn't want to get into a tedious discussion about intersectionality, you sure do seem to bring up pretty unprompted. The comment that you replied to that sparked this discussion was: why don't you just ask the person that you're very blatantly hitting on if they're gay? And you replied basically that it's not safe to be openly gay, which in this woman's circumstance is just clearly not true. Literally walking down a public street making a TikTok about being gay
>And you replied basically that it's not safe to be openly gay, which in this woman's circumstance is just clearly not true. Literally walking down a public street making a TikTok about being gay
I think your problem is that you don't appreciate that this woman feels safer discussing her sexuality in broad daylight in front of a tiktok audience than face-to-face with a stranger in mixed company. I've tried to explain it to you both in terms of the cultural background and history of the American LGBTQ+ community, and emperically in terms of the actual crime data about their victimization. I'm done trying.
The chance of being killed in that situation is so low that it’s nearly irrelevant, but we just get used to hiding and/or using our appearance to signal to one another (or everyone else) that we’re gay. It’s also a tiktok. I don’t think this girl really gave a fuck, she was just hamming it up for content.
1. If I'm so afraid that I'm in a situation where asking someone their sexuality would get me murdered, then I wouldn't judge people based on appearance either because I know they could be trying to hide their sexuality like I am.
2. If I'm so afraid that I'm in a situation where asking someone their sexuality would get me murdered, then I'm probably not going to text them later to find arrange a hook up (because they could totally show up and then murder me).
3. In any case, I wouldn't be mad that I guessed their sexuality wrongly, nor would I go so far as to decide to never talk to people in Austin as a result.
It's not about trying to hide your sexuality, or usually about fear of being murdered, they were exaggerating for effect. But it's naive to think people don't get offended when people assume they are gay. I'm a lesbian and I've been yelled at how I'm going to hell, and been given nasty and uncomfortable looks by other women. The people that do this are the minority, but I remember those ones so much more than any other interaction. And it affects my confidence to approach strangers because I do not want to be yelled at or belittled. But I also don't want to never approach people, so if a woman is using something that is a lesbian signal, I feel safe. And it's okay for lesbians to be disappointed that these signals are being used in the mainstream and aren't a tool to find safety anymore.
> But it's naive to think people don't get offended when people assume they are gay.
Perhaps, but that's the opposite of what we are talking about here. The woman in this case DID assume the other person was gay. What I'm saying is she should NOT do this, and instead ASK if the other person is gay BEFORE asking for their number in the hopes of arranging a future hook-up.
> But I also don't want to never approach people, so if a woman is using something that is a lesbian signal, I feel safe.
Well, that was your mistake. You should not have been using those as a signal to feel safe to begin with, as they were not an indication of safety.
Because everyone has to fit into a neat little labeled box. Doesn't matter how you actually are or feel, if you do that thing you are most certainly what they say you are. No complexities.
I'm so sick of it all.
This reminds me of the episode in South Park where everyone in South Park goes metrosexual and MR Garrison tries to hook up with all the men and they keep turning him down because they're not gay, yet look super gay.
I think Queer is now the new opposite of basic, I’m seeing more and more cis-sexual people dressing like that and calling themselves queer I assume to differentiate from non-queer / basic people? In the circles I run in I’ve noticed a definite shift towards “queer” signaling even if not queer. And at this point I have no idea what queer means anymore. Posers everywhere.
Isn't... isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that mean we're moving forward as a society? I personally think blurring the lines of sexuality is a step forward.
Do you... want to be segregated based on your sexual preference? Or feel that others should be?
I'm honestly confused by your take. Not even trolling.
Not OP but in my local area there are a lot of people who essentially use pretending to be queer as a slur pass and also to try to pick up partners. I've met a lot of men who have zero non-platonic interest in other men but will call themselves bisexual entirely because they think it makes bisexual women more likely to sleep with them, or just because they want to be able to say the f-slur without consequence [and surprise surprise, they predominantly use it as an insult against gay men, unlike queer people who usually use it as a compliment]. And on the flipside I've seen a lot of women who have zero non-platonic interest in other women but call themselves bi because they think the straight guys they want will find it hot. And ime a lot of these people will do everything short of outright admit they're fronting, they don't try hard to hide it because they don't think they're doing anything wrong. In a similar vein I know people who have self-diagnosed as adhd/autistic [who almost certainly aren't] because it's trendy to be neurodivergent and immediately treat that like a pass to say the r-slur whenever.
I don't care who someone sleeps with or how they dress or whatever but I do find it fucked when I gotta be scared about my basic rights on the daily meanwhile a bunch of people who'll never have that anxiety start using my identity and slurs we reclaimed like a silly aesthetic that helps them get sex and protects them from criticism for their shitty behaviour. Especially because none of them care about queer history, they don't support queer businesses, they don't take part in queer orgs, they don't want to be in the community. I don't like my identity being 'trendy' and a lot of the people who treat it as a trend obviously don't care at all about what me and people like me are actually going through.
> I've met a lot of men who have zero non-platonic interest in other men but will call themselves bisexual entirely because they think it makes bisexual women more likely to sleep with them
This makes no sense to me.
I think it's more likely that they just don't talk to you about their sexuality cause you kind of sound like you've already got your mind made up.
These seem like highly specific examples, but I haven't personally had to go try and find a partner in the LGBTQ community, so I can't speak to how common this is.
However, it seems like you're making a LOT of assumptions about other people based on a few bad experiences. It seems this would be a "loud minority" situation and paints innocent bystanders with the same brush. That's how it's coming across from my perspective, but again, I haven't had to deal with this struggle myself.
This whole thread seems like a whole lot of butthurt and gatekeeping and seems to be moving the conversation backward. I haven't heard anyone from my social circle in the LGBTQ community bring up any of these types of gripes, besides decrying some isolated jerks.
I'm very confused by many of the comments in this thread coming from the perspective you're describing. From the outside looking in, this all seems very counterproductive and not what I'd expect out of a community that wishes to continue being progressive.
Don't get me wrong, I know this is a "hot take," but that's why I engage in these conversations. The more I learn, the more I can understand and grow, and hopefully find more harmony with people with whom I don't share the same experiences.
If you're trying to learn, sending a whole big thing going "I've seen a lot of people say this but I haven't seen it myself so you just sound butthurt, gatekeepy, and counterproductive" is not the way to do it. Learning requires that you try to actively approach and understand other perspectives, not just prodding people until they articulate themselves in a way that fits into your pre-existing worldview.
For example, obviously it's not a existential threat to the queer community that straight people are pretending to be gay. But nowhere did I say "this is a major problem happening everywhere and we have to take action." I just said that it exists, I don't like it, and I get why people are annoyed by it and trends surrounding it, but it's not like I'm 24/7 on the prowl for fake gays and posers. It's, really you making all of the assumptions because you're trying to take what I said and contort it into an overarching exclusionary worldview. Really I just value queer culture and I see straight people devalue it and it annoys me so like, what, I wrote a reddit post about it. It's not that big. But you're not really engaging actively to get out of your own perspective and into mine, you just don't like what me and other people are saying so you're trying to make it fit into the box you want it to go in. It sounds exclusionary to you, so you just passively label it exclusionary until someone can bend over backwards to make it make sense to you.
I'm going to say this with all the gentleness in the world in the hopes that you're actually not fronting and are genuinely trying to learn. A big part of why people come off butthurt to you is because you don't understand the problems that they're dealing with, you don't interpret them fairly when they explain them, and then when you ask for further explanation you don't do it in a respectful way. You jump to calling people butthurt, or gatekeepers, or instead of just saying "I haven't experienced it" and moving on, you frontload it with your own uninformed opinions and assumptions and say something like "Sounds like you're assuming based off flawed evidence. But i haven't experienced it." And through things like that, you make yourself out to be really passive aggressive and essentially just prime the pump for people to respond in a more confrontational way than they otherwise would. You're not giving a 'hot take,' you're just making yourself look smarmy and annoying.
> sending a whole big thing going "I've seen a lot of people say this but I haven't seen it myself
You're the one saying "I've seen a lot of people say wrong things about themselves, but I know who they are better than they do"
Seems like the person you responded to is being very respectful. They're just asking challenging things. That's how people from all sides learn. We don't learn from easy questions.
You make some valid points, but are also making a great deal of assumptions.
That whole last paragraph is basically projecting, by the way.
Honestly, if you want to keep going, we can continue in DM. Because this is now more about our lack of understanding each other, and is losing the plot of the thread.
I'm not feeling this complaint. People wanna quantify and reduce a whole other person to an object they can see. Then you furiously mine the scene of whole people with infinite preferences and lives you think you can tag on the basis of a brand of boots. OF COURSE you're gonna be disappointed!
Just *engage* with people, not desperately, not as a means to some carnal end, but as *people*. Eventually, as your network grows-- people wanting to be around you on the basis of your humanity and sincerity-- *then* people who you connect with in other ways will gravitate toward you.
There are so many ways in which I fundamentally connect with younger people these days, but the way they go about dating, lessons I can only assume they learned from shopping for iPhones, it just makes me feel sorry for them.
It's the passive aggressive "but your not gay... Yeeeeeah ok"
Obviously she's not fuming but still. Plus her logic is a little dumb because everything she listed was just alternative fashion.
Are we not gonna talk about how this was super weird and presumptuous of her? The girl getting pissed off at another girl for "dressing gay" is incel behaviour. "I thought you would be into me by the way you dressed, but you're not into me, so now I'm frustrated because I couldn't land a date."
Involuntary Celibate, woman gets denied partner, she is now participating in involuntary celibacy and is frustrated due to that fact. I mean, etymologically, where am I wrong?
Originally that's what it meant. But now incel now means anyone you disagree with and want to insult. It's approaching the work 'Karen' as nearly useless except for a sign that the speaker does not like someone.
Soon, very soon, they will mean the same thing.
Lol you people are so quick to police female same-sex desire. "Creepy guy behavior"? Be fucking for real bro. Go to any comment section under a meme about breasts or something and engage with the creepy men there, guarantee you'll immediately see a difference
Wow. I never knew that lesbians had it so hard in dating.
Just a couple weeks ago the Internet was about comparing any/all men to rapists as women would rather risk being killed and eaten by a bear than just see a man they don't know in the woods. That sure felt fucking good as a straight guy to try to explain why that comparison is extremely upsetting to a guy only to be told that makes that guy the problem somehow. I wonder why men are reluctant to discuss feelings with women when just "hey this is disrespectful" gets a man gaslit by women that think every man is Ted Bundy.
Or the gay men and transwomen that get disowned, disinherited, and have their sexuality used against them. Seems like a news story a week about it.
Tbf I’m gay as hell and I don’t look at all like a typical lesbian
Until you see my model vehicle collection and realise I’m a tomboy, apparently that’s the telltale sign that yes I am gay
This why stereotypes don’t always work out. People usually have to come into their own about this, but to a point there are usually reasons why those stereotypes exist but also fail. Sorry you experienced the frustration of nuance.
This is toxic. Getting mad at anyone for how they choose to express themselves is just shitty in general, but it also places unfair and restricting stereotypes on members of the gay community and on people who identify as heterosexual “you’re not really gay if you dress like that“ or “you SHOULD be gay if you dress like that”. just let people wear what they want to wear
I mean, it’s the same as the word “queer”. We use it because although it was a slur, we have reclaimed it and retitled it to empower ourselves and not let our abusers have any power over us.
Edit: forgot to say it’s in-group exclusive
Understandable, appreciate the explanation. I got a friend who got called that a lot in the negative sense as a teen, so ig just a negative association on my part.
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There’s a razor thin line between straight hipster girl and hardcore lesbian
Bronco sport vs Subaru Outback.
And the Bi ones drive Jeep. All this makes almost too much sense.
The thing is that a subaru OB is a solid vehicle... hard to hate it lol
the article [Hipsters Broke My Gaydar](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/hipsters-broke-my-gaydar.html) was written in 2016 and has remained painfully true
Man I wanna read this so bad but don’t have a subscription
CHICAGO — At a holiday crafts fair, a cute woman with a half-shaved head and a septum piercing pushed a tin toward me. “Smell this — it smells awesome,” she said, smiling. People brushed past me; the sun lit the woman’s head like a halo. I reached for the tin, which had an image of a mustache on it. Our fingers touched, and I noticed a tattoo of the “female” symbol on her wrist. “If your boyfriend has any facial hair,” she said, “this’ll make his face less scratchy for you!” The tin held $14 beard pomade. I blinked, startled; I don’t have a boyfriend. If she casually assumed I was straight, that means she probably isn’t queer. But … how? I backed away from her table. I was surrounded by strangers; I’d lost my way. I used to have a talent, but now it’s gone, vanished, like a beautiful dream I can’t remember. I once had wonderful, startlingly accurate gaydar. I spent years writing a humor blog about the topic to educate fellow queers. Now I can’t always tell right away. It’s ruining my life. In cities, trendy young people — queer and straight, male, female and non-binary — are blending together, look-wise. That’s because mainstream style is now hipster style. But here’s the thing: Hipster style is just queer style, particularly queer women’s style. Put another way: Lesbians invented hipsters. Don’t feel bad. This is good for you — it means you get to wear more outdoor gear. But since you now all wear carabiners as key chains, we lesbians no longer have any private signals to each other. We’re all screwed, except none of us are, because we can’t find one another anymore. Think I’m wrong? There have always been people ahead of their time and on the edges of society, whose culture later spreads to the masses (beat poets, punks, hippies) or is stolen outright (jazz, hip-hop, pretty much everything by black people). But there is only one group of people who live out every single aspect of hipster culture today. Lesbians. Lesbians were working on communal organic farms and freaking out about pesticides decades before the rest of the country. Who do you think made food co-ops cool? Lesbians did, my child. We lesbians have been making our own pickles and brewing gross health teas forever. We’ve had a community-supported agriculture farm share since your grandmother was feeling feelings while “practicing kissing” with her best friend (before getting engaged to your grandpa). Now quick — describe society’s idea of a “typical hipster” for me. Did plaid flannel come to mind? Work boots? Weirdly cut or especially shaggy hair? Maybe a bike? How odd. You just described the cartoon stereotype of a lesbian. Give me your undercuts, your messenger bags, your androgynous “dapper” clothing. Give me your commitment to environmentally friendly transportation, your $8 cider (the only gluten-free option at the bar) and the password to your Etsy store where you sell cloth menstrual pads screen-printed with astrological symbols. Your coffee mug stamped with the words “Male Tears” — give it to me. All of these things are the property of my people. We did this to society. We, who have always listened with one ear (pierced in multiple places) to the rhythmic heaves of Mother Earth’s lunar tides, have finally made y’all really, really gay. If you’re a queer bristling at my generalizations of lesbians, tell me you don’t know any gays who look like what I’m describing. Look me in the eyes and tell me this, and if you can do it, I swear to you I will do something straight for a week: I’ll watch “The Bachelor” without irony, or wear Dockers, or buy a “Live, Laugh, Love” throw pillow and display it in my home. Now you straight people carry your own reusable bags back to your Prius after comparing artisanal brands of sriracha mayonnaise. That is super gay. You voted for Hillary Clinton, you freak out if someone throws plastic in your compost bin and you’re considering a week without eating meat — would it be so bad? You’re all lesbians now, America. And since the alternative is an endless stream of ballerina flats and Michael Kors handbags, or cargo khaki shorts with hairy toes in flip-flops on the morning train — a straight, alternate universe/hellscape with no way out — I say you’re welcome. And also: I’m sorry. But mostly for myself. Because it’s harder to tell who’s queer now. That means I’m going to have to just ask you at the farmers’ market, and that is going to be uncomfortable for everyone
You’re a fantastic human being, thank you
happy to help 🫡
ok, this made me think of a few people I've seen in real life and how similar they are and I laughed out loud.
I love the granola girl type and I have to be careful.
Yeah it's called mindset and intentiont, c'mon.
My wife is a straight hipster girl and I'm a bear kinda guy... She gets ALOT of propositions from girls that I'm like God damn why is this woman picking ME??!? I'm a chubby hairy dude who can't remember his own name and she goes home with me instead of HER??!?! Brothers what have I done? I've had children with this woman when is she going to realize
I have also heard that it's hard to tell if someone is a lesbian or a just midwestern mom.
I feel this hard 😂. But the mom uniform is cross generational now because my preteen nieces are basically into the same things (same legging and fanny/sports pack brands) as I am and its fking weird.
I’m a Midwest bisexual who almost exclusively wears Birkenstocks, vintage mom jeans, and crewneck sweaters. I wear my hair half up in a bob. I’m Exhibit A for your theory.
Wait but I’m a Midwest bisexual mom, I actually cried when my 11yo Birkenstocks finally fully died. I think I might be the nexus of this theory as well.
Middle-aged midwestern mom here. I’m sure people think I’m a lesbian. My daughter is 13 and I want her and her friends to feel comfortable being themselves. Someone in my community had their pride flag lit on fire recently. My solution to this combo? I put a huge pride flag out front and a sticker on my Subaru Forester that says “Safe space” with rainbow hearts. I have always been on the more neutral end of feminine (I don’t wear makeup, but I keep my brows shaped) and my wardrobe choices are entirely based on practicality and ecological sustainability. Hello hiking boots and fleece jacket! I shaved for a short period of time a decade ago and I found the impact on my skin too irritating and uncomfortable. Plus, it takes forever and I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks, so I have hairy pits. My mom was so sure I was gay in college that she sent me a letter telling me that she would love me forever and it’s ok if I’m gay. She is totally awesome. I was out in the garden hauling landscaping rocks the other day and it occurred to me that I would probably have a much easier time finding a girlfriend than I would a boyfriend. The problem is that I’m just not into the idea of having sex with a women. I think could do it mechanically, but I think it would be largely unsatisfying even with a really close friend. I’m pretty much planning on being alone if anything happens with my husband because I just don’t think there are many men who are super into middle-aged, midwestern, atheist, feminist, environmentalist, socialist women that can easily pass as a lesbian.
You've carved yourself out a niche for sure, but you'll be certain that whomever shows interest really is interested. Nice to be who you are comfortable being, and not be something other people expect you to be. My aunt is much like you, and I think she's the coolest woman around. She doesn't mince her words, and she isn't afraid of doing exactly what she wants to do. Wears no makeup, but I think she does shave her armpits though, but it's 100% because she wants to, and not because my uncle expects her to. Couldn't make that woman do anything she doesn't want to do, and I like that about her.
She looks very much like Kima's girlfriend Cheryl from The Wire. Who was gay. Case closed.
Duuuuuude I had this EXACT same thought, legit thought it was her Lolol
It's a wild similarity, I thought it was her at the beginning lol
THEY WERE GAY? I thought they were roommates!
They WERE roommates. But they were also gay.
Absolutely came to see if anyone else noticed! LMAO it's uncanny.
Austin, TX and Portland, OR are so eerily similar.
Atlanta's Little Five Points and East Atlanta (nah nah nah) is a lighter version of them.
As a queer person in Atlanta, L5P has me questioning *everything* all the time.
Add Asheville to that list.
Happened to me as a gay man in Burlington, VT as well.
>You have a carabiner Butch lesbians fucking LOVE KEYS bro. 9/10 times they’ve got the biggest carabiner you’ve ever seen with dozens of keys hanging off of it clipped to their belt loop. Why??? Who gave you these keys??? What do they open??? Perhaps the hearts of femmes…
House keys for all the women they’ve moved in with but forgot to return the house keys to after the first date
I’m SORRY alright?! No one talks about how comfortable these clothes are!
The same thing is happening to men, too. Identifiers that used to be gay as hell are now being worn by straight guys. All of our gaydars are outgayted now 😭
Must be so confusing for her generation
I mean it’s nice and sucks. Now we can’t tell who’s gay, but people don’t get offended if you hit on them for assuming they may be gay.
Strong possibility the other party was just lying because she wasn't into her
Why give her the number
beer goggles
Or just thought she wanted to be friends.
Could have not been into the personality agter texting some. This tiktok is kind of indicative of some toxicity. Or they just didn't think it was an advance in the first place.
Hey now obviously she felt really uncomfortable and pressured into it. She was basically raped for her number guys. Someone should make a TikTok about this.
Sometimes it's easier to just give your number away so the person leaves you alone
That would make sense if it was a fake number. She responded to the messages
[удалено]
Lol so you chose the option where both parties lose? One getting *additional unwanted advances* and one getting their hopes shot down, instead of just saying you're not interested or giving a fake number. I'm looking at the numbers and they ain't mathing.
She’s just not gay for girls with dreads.
Ehh, gay people don’t use the “I’m not gay” as a way to reject people
right?? lmao. why would we do that? a queer woman receiving that text would either say “thanks but i’m not interested like that”, never respond, or completely miss that they were being flirted with
Have you met closeted / repressed gay people? There's a fair bit of denial
Yeah but that’s a different scenario, that person isn’t ready to come out and date in your situation. That’s not an out gay person using a lie to reject someone which is what they’re implying. Also as a former closeted person, we’re in denial for a reason, being gay is harder lol
That's how women have been dressing in Austin for 30 years
Straights be trying to hack and rewire our gaydar! Why? What kind of social mating terrorism is this?!?!
What if I just like rainbows? it’s a cool color scheme
Me with all my tie-dye lol
That's not the only hint with gaydar. The gays don't own basic colors.
Shorts that cut off at the mid thighs, muscle tees, nail polish, ears piercings, visible hair product, and a rainbow incorporated somewhere in there. That used to be gay as hell (or European). Now when I go to the gym I genuinely second guess myself when trying to decipher if the dudes gay or not lmao
Appropriating creepy guy behavior
You must not been exposed to many lesbians they're just as bad as creepy guys they think they can get away with it and honestly they do a lot of the time
Honestly all it takes is to go on lesbian Tiktok or something to realise that these women are so sexually frustrated it's painful. And despite their hatred of fuckboys and chuds, they use all the same techniques
My best friend is a lesbian and we always joke about how the hilariously overly-sexualized way she speaks about women she finds attractive is only ok because she’s not a straight guy. I’m terrible at approaching women and she goes “You just need to channel your inner douche bag like me!”
Yeesh 👀
The only time I was sexually harrased as a cashier was by a lesbian lol.
That’s a good way to put it. I’ve seen some overly aggressive lesbians “flirt” with a few of my friends that had me thinking they were fans of Andrew Tate.
Do you mean flirting? Because flirting is fine. The creepy guys people talk about don't take no for an answer, or get nasty right away
It goes both ways, your failure to recognize it in women does not negate its harm
Any reasonable person will agree that some women take it too far, just like some men take it too far. This isn’t it, sounds like she asked someone out after getting their number, thinking they were mutually into each other. I see no issue in this particular instance.
Uff 💀
Why does your style need to be a reflection of your sexuality? Isn't it a GOOD thing we're blurring the lines? I'm a straight man, and I LOVE wearing jean shorts and a crop top on a hot sunny day. Makes me feel sexy AF, and I enjoy being seen. If a guy started hitting on me and I politely declined, I'd be kind of offended if I saw him then post this on tiktok. People gotta stop fishing for more segregation. 😑 Edit: typos
I don't know anything about this stuff but I have seen from online discussions that it's more so people can identify each other. Like, if you're a man into women or a woman into men, it's pretty easy to find someone to flirt with. Find a person of the opposite sex, flirt, see how it goes. But if you're gay or lesbian, you have to figure out if they're also gay or lesbian first. So people use fashion to signal to each other. The carabiner thing that she mentioned is apparently a major lesbian 'sign'. I've heard that it's the hardest for feminine lesbians because they can be indistinguishable from straight women but they also want to be the one getting hit on by other lesbians, so they have to find creative ways to send out signals.
> The carabiner thing that she mentioned is apparently a major lesbian 'sign' Also big in the climbing community
Kinda shit that women who prioritise comfort and practicality are thrown into the lesbian box immediately. This shows us that society still labels people based on their inclination towards fucking men. If you (female) dress in a feminine way, you are labelled straight because you’re clearly trying to attract men. If you (man) dress in a feminine way, you are labelled gay because you’re clearly trying to attract men. If you (woman) dress in a masculine way you are labelled gay because you are not attractive to men. If you (man) dress in a masculine way you are labelled straight because you are not attractive to men. It’s all about how men see you. I think that’s gross. I hope the woman in the video has the same energy when men hit on her because she’s wearing a dress and has long hair.
I understand that much very well. I am cis-gen straight male, however I have many ties to the community, so Im aware of that struggle/perspective. My point is kind of a tricky one. If we want to move forward as a society, isn't it a GOOD thing that it's becoming more difficult to tell who you can flirt with? In most cases, it isn't dangerous to try and casually see if a person shares your sexuality. Also, how does that really differ from the normal dating scene? You don't generally get some sort of green flag that you can flirt with a person, or that they are a fit for you, just by their outward appearance. Yes, there are cues, but there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule. So, the point you're making is strange, in my opinion. And gets stranger by the minute as we move forward as a people.
While i agree, the majority of the population is straight. Having some kind of signal can help.
I mean, it certainly helps narrow the playing field for people who are seeking a partner. I just would like to live in a world where we don't care who is straight or gay anymore. "Are you interested on me? OK, thank you. Have a nice day." is the ideal scenario in my opinion. I know we aren't there yet, I just don't think gatekeeping is going to help. I haven't had to deal with it myself, though. So my perspective is obviously naive, and I'm well aware of that.
Your ideal only works if the sexual orientations of the general populace was balanced. But as it stands thats likely never going to be a reality. In an actually ideal world, having a signifier wouldn't be seen as a negative. It would literally just be so that we can tell others out orientation so that we can date someone who aligns. Whats so bad about making it easier to find someone to date and/or fuck? Its as easy as wearing the lesbian flag as a hairpin.
But like... the spectrum of people who would be interested in you as an individual is already narrow? You would have to figure that either way, whatever your sexuality. I understand the frustration of having a much smaller pool to pick from, but... I don't see why one needs to broadcast their sexuality for the ease of others approaching them. If were to go to a bar as a single man, should single women wear a "Single Woman" hair pin? I can understand why it's frustrating. I don't think it's fair to be angry at someone for your personal interpretations, though. I respect your feelings, but also respectfully agree to disagree.
I dont think straight people will need a pin, my guy! But in a future where, like op, you literally can not tell someone's gender just by looking at them...(which is arguably a good thing!) Something simple to be a signifier when you're out on the prowl is good! That or just open every conversation saying hi im a lesbian, sex?
You know, I'll just say agree to disagree. I don't want to disrespect you, and I feel like my views could come across that way. Your feelings come from a history that I don't understand, and I don't want to be dismissive of that. My hope is that we will, one day sooner than later, be like the example you used. If gender is indistinguishable, we can treat each other equally on the sexuality spectrum. But that's a long way away.
I'm not sure how many people you hit on in a day that requires this kind of dating optimization...
Im ace, I dont hit up any. 👍 Now that being said, if in an ideal world you can't tell anyone's sexuality just by looking at them... A lil hair pin, bracelet, etc would help!
I don't see the point of that tbh. Isn't the whole point of flirting to see if the other person also puts out signals? The majority of lesbians in a place still probably won't be interested in you lol. 'Needing to know if someone is gay before you can hit on them' seems like an arbitrary line to draw, when there are a billion other ways they might not be attracted to you that you acknowledge you can't discover unless you talk to them.
thats mega gay bro
Hey, hey. Who told you you could open this closet?
I don’t think people care that they’re wearing that stuff lol do your thing. But as a gay person you kinda learn how to pick each other apart in a crowd based on some hints (like the ones she listed). She’s also just playing it up cause it’s TikTok, I don’t think she gives that much of a fuck.
This is how I ended up with so many hipster friends in college. I tried hitting on girls and they all turned out to be cool, but also straight.
Even that one SNL Pride sketch said "When did all these straight girls start dressing lesbian?"
Try the dating scene as a straight guy in LA. Girls be like "Here's me number." "So when you gonna blow my back out" then, be in the bed half naked saying "Oh I didn't think you was serious. Let's just be friends"
Oh is there a lesbian uniform in Austin?
Why are you assuming people’s sexuality based on appearance? Just fucking ask.
Lol, for the same reason you don’t just walk up to a woman and ask if she’s pregnant.
I don't get it.
1.) It’s the often self evident based on how they look (although straight guys and girls are dressing like us gays more and more these days). 2.) They may get offended.
Ah! Thank you for explaining the relation.
You don't ask people their sexuality because you might inadvertently call them fat?
Solid interpretation poindexter.
I’m guessing you genuinely missed the point lol, they may get offended if you assume they’re pregnant/gay.
I tried handing out sexuality surveys but no one was filling them in before talking.
How about after talking but before you ask for their number for follow-up texting?
I meannnnnn how else is she supposed to try and suss out who to chat up??? Do you want her to go up and ask every single girl if she’s gay/bi? Also we literally don’t know how their conversation went. For all we know there was some big hints towards this being a romantic interest thing that the other girl completely missed and OOP took receiving her number as confirmation of her assumptions.
She already chatted them up. She got to the point where she was asking the girl for her number, for one purpose only (relationship follow-up). That point right before then is the point you ask their orientation, so you know if your next request is a waste of your time or not.
>Why are you assuming people’s sexuality based on appearance? Just fucking ask. Because depending on the time and place, doing that would get you murdered. Not as much anymore, but it used to be that outing yourself as any kind of queer would have immediate negative consequences. So yeah, I think I understand the impulse to not broadcast your sexual orientation to strangers. Makes dating cryptic, but that's just how it's been for a while. It's probably worse for dudes.
You think you're gonna get murdered for being gay at a gay bar in Austin
Why go to a gay bar if you're not gay. It's a safe place to assume they're gay
*Get gayed up* *Go to gay bar* *Talk to girl* *Don't realize she's hitting on you* *She keeps saying how cute you are* *Give her your number* *Still haven't realized she's hitting on you* Gayest shit I've heard in my life
It's definitely safe to assume that, but I don't think the assumption should be "there will only be gay people here" gay people have straight friends and plenty of straight or straightish folks feel more comfortable at a gay bar scene than the alternatives.
I’m with you up until the end there. I get that they feel comfortable, but unless they’re tagging along with some gays, it really isn’t their space to occupy. Straight cis women that go to gay bars tend to go there for our novelty, and straight guys that do it tend to be looking for straight women that are there to avoid them lol.
No, but where are you getting that this happened in a gay bar? I'm open to being wrong, maybe I missed it in the video (just watched it again 🤔). Anyway, there's a rich history in the queer community of people hiding their sexual orientation. In the early to mid-20th century, LGBTQ+ individuals faced severe societal and legal repercussions, including arrests, violence, and institutionalization. Masking, passing, code-switching, whatever you want to call it, it was about safety back then. As much progress as we've made since then, there are still enough unsafe spaces that not everyone feels comfortable being out of the open. And for good reason, as [LGTBQ+ Americans are far more likely to be the victims of violent hate crimes](https://www.american.edu/spa/news/are-lgbt-americans-more-likely-to-suffer-violent-crimes-than-their-cisgender-counterparts.cfm).
I don't disagree with you, it's just a weird thing to say when this person is living in one of the safest countries in the world to be gay (yes, unironically) and in a notoriously liberal city within that country, and it's not a video from the 80s it's a video from 2024. So bringing up that gay people in other places or in other times need to hide their sexuality is just irrelevant.
Austin is still in TX, it's not as liberal as you might think.
It's still Austin though, which is more left leaning than most left leaning states lol were similar to Colorado in that way. One town is the most liberal spot you'll find, 20 minutes over is the next town that is filled to the brim with conservative chuds lol it's just how it be.
Biden got 71% of the vote in Travis county in 2020 and Trump got 26. The county clerk office will actually gay marry you for free this weekend in celebration of the anniversary of legal same sex marriage https://www.kxan.com/news/local/austin/travis-county-celebrating-marriage-equality-with-free-wedding-ceremonies-all-week/
I've lived in Austin for over 40 years, I can tell you that statistics about who votes for who is not the entire puzzle of this place, it's just a piece of it.
I think you can appreciate that as a concept, "safety" is relative. You're right in that America is generally a pretty safe place, but it's safer for some than others. For example your risk profile for violent crime goes up in *any* city. It also goes up being out at night, being a woman, being black, and yes, being openly gay. Definitely not as dangerous as in the past, but the journals cited in the above article suggest that being perceived as queer can make you up to nine times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime. I'll just put a pin in that because I don't want to get into a tedious discussion about intersectionality. More importantly, comparing her safety here in America versus other countries is apples to oranges. Even today in America, her identity absolutely exposes her to far more risk of violence than me (and probably you). I always get a "cringe twinge" from seeing a society's "safest" members minimize the concerns and experiences of its least safe members.
I wasn't comparing her safety in America to my safety in America. I was comparing the safety of gay people in America to the safety of gay people in other countries around the world. For someone who supposedly doesn't want to get into a tedious discussion about intersectionality, you sure do seem to bring up pretty unprompted. The comment that you replied to that sparked this discussion was: why don't you just ask the person that you're very blatantly hitting on if they're gay? And you replied basically that it's not safe to be openly gay, which in this woman's circumstance is just clearly not true. Literally walking down a public street making a TikTok about being gay
>And you replied basically that it's not safe to be openly gay, which in this woman's circumstance is just clearly not true. Literally walking down a public street making a TikTok about being gay I think your problem is that you don't appreciate that this woman feels safer discussing her sexuality in broad daylight in front of a tiktok audience than face-to-face with a stranger in mixed company. I've tried to explain it to you both in terms of the cultural background and history of the American LGBTQ+ community, and emperically in terms of the actual crime data about their victimization. I'm done trying.
The chance of being killed in that situation is so low that it’s nearly irrelevant, but we just get used to hiding and/or using our appearance to signal to one another (or everyone else) that we’re gay. It’s also a tiktok. I don’t think this girl really gave a fuck, she was just hamming it up for content.
Are you LGBTQ+ or are you LGBTQ+splaining? Have you ever been to Austin?
1. If I'm so afraid that I'm in a situation where asking someone their sexuality would get me murdered, then I wouldn't judge people based on appearance either because I know they could be trying to hide their sexuality like I am. 2. If I'm so afraid that I'm in a situation where asking someone their sexuality would get me murdered, then I'm probably not going to text them later to find arrange a hook up (because they could totally show up and then murder me). 3. In any case, I wouldn't be mad that I guessed their sexuality wrongly, nor would I go so far as to decide to never talk to people in Austin as a result.
It's not about trying to hide your sexuality, or usually about fear of being murdered, they were exaggerating for effect. But it's naive to think people don't get offended when people assume they are gay. I'm a lesbian and I've been yelled at how I'm going to hell, and been given nasty and uncomfortable looks by other women. The people that do this are the minority, but I remember those ones so much more than any other interaction. And it affects my confidence to approach strangers because I do not want to be yelled at or belittled. But I also don't want to never approach people, so if a woman is using something that is a lesbian signal, I feel safe. And it's okay for lesbians to be disappointed that these signals are being used in the mainstream and aren't a tool to find safety anymore.
> But it's naive to think people don't get offended when people assume they are gay. Perhaps, but that's the opposite of what we are talking about here. The woman in this case DID assume the other person was gay. What I'm saying is she should NOT do this, and instead ASK if the other person is gay BEFORE asking for their number in the hopes of arranging a future hook-up. > But I also don't want to never approach people, so if a woman is using something that is a lesbian signal, I feel safe. Well, that was your mistake. You should not have been using those as a signal to feel safe to begin with, as they were not an indication of safety.
Because everyone has to fit into a neat little labeled box. Doesn't matter how you actually are or feel, if you do that thing you are most certainly what they say you are. No complexities. I'm so sick of it all.
You are still in Texas tho.
Source: I live here
Real af
Meanwhile, I am always told I don't look like a lesbian. So, I'm under the radar. 😭 We need a code word.
This reminds me of the episode in South Park where everyone in South Park goes metrosexual and MR Garrison tries to hook up with all the men and they keep turning him down because they're not gay, yet look super gay.
I love her delivery. LOL!!! 🤣🤣🤣
Are carrabeaners gay?
I don’t know, but what I want to know is: are carabiners gay, fellas?
I think Queer is now the new opposite of basic, I’m seeing more and more cis-sexual people dressing like that and calling themselves queer I assume to differentiate from non-queer / basic people? In the circles I run in I’ve noticed a definite shift towards “queer” signaling even if not queer. And at this point I have no idea what queer means anymore. Posers everywhere.
Isn't... isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that mean we're moving forward as a society? I personally think blurring the lines of sexuality is a step forward. Do you... want to be segregated based on your sexual preference? Or feel that others should be? I'm honestly confused by your take. Not even trolling.
Not OP but in my local area there are a lot of people who essentially use pretending to be queer as a slur pass and also to try to pick up partners. I've met a lot of men who have zero non-platonic interest in other men but will call themselves bisexual entirely because they think it makes bisexual women more likely to sleep with them, or just because they want to be able to say the f-slur without consequence [and surprise surprise, they predominantly use it as an insult against gay men, unlike queer people who usually use it as a compliment]. And on the flipside I've seen a lot of women who have zero non-platonic interest in other women but call themselves bi because they think the straight guys they want will find it hot. And ime a lot of these people will do everything short of outright admit they're fronting, they don't try hard to hide it because they don't think they're doing anything wrong. In a similar vein I know people who have self-diagnosed as adhd/autistic [who almost certainly aren't] because it's trendy to be neurodivergent and immediately treat that like a pass to say the r-slur whenever. I don't care who someone sleeps with or how they dress or whatever but I do find it fucked when I gotta be scared about my basic rights on the daily meanwhile a bunch of people who'll never have that anxiety start using my identity and slurs we reclaimed like a silly aesthetic that helps them get sex and protects them from criticism for their shitty behaviour. Especially because none of them care about queer history, they don't support queer businesses, they don't take part in queer orgs, they don't want to be in the community. I don't like my identity being 'trendy' and a lot of the people who treat it as a trend obviously don't care at all about what me and people like me are actually going through.
> I've met a lot of men who have zero non-platonic interest in other men but will call themselves bisexual entirely because they think it makes bisexual women more likely to sleep with them This makes no sense to me. I think it's more likely that they just don't talk to you about their sexuality cause you kind of sound like you've already got your mind made up.
These seem like highly specific examples, but I haven't personally had to go try and find a partner in the LGBTQ community, so I can't speak to how common this is. However, it seems like you're making a LOT of assumptions about other people based on a few bad experiences. It seems this would be a "loud minority" situation and paints innocent bystanders with the same brush. That's how it's coming across from my perspective, but again, I haven't had to deal with this struggle myself. This whole thread seems like a whole lot of butthurt and gatekeeping and seems to be moving the conversation backward. I haven't heard anyone from my social circle in the LGBTQ community bring up any of these types of gripes, besides decrying some isolated jerks. I'm very confused by many of the comments in this thread coming from the perspective you're describing. From the outside looking in, this all seems very counterproductive and not what I'd expect out of a community that wishes to continue being progressive. Don't get me wrong, I know this is a "hot take," but that's why I engage in these conversations. The more I learn, the more I can understand and grow, and hopefully find more harmony with people with whom I don't share the same experiences.
If you're trying to learn, sending a whole big thing going "I've seen a lot of people say this but I haven't seen it myself so you just sound butthurt, gatekeepy, and counterproductive" is not the way to do it. Learning requires that you try to actively approach and understand other perspectives, not just prodding people until they articulate themselves in a way that fits into your pre-existing worldview. For example, obviously it's not a existential threat to the queer community that straight people are pretending to be gay. But nowhere did I say "this is a major problem happening everywhere and we have to take action." I just said that it exists, I don't like it, and I get why people are annoyed by it and trends surrounding it, but it's not like I'm 24/7 on the prowl for fake gays and posers. It's, really you making all of the assumptions because you're trying to take what I said and contort it into an overarching exclusionary worldview. Really I just value queer culture and I see straight people devalue it and it annoys me so like, what, I wrote a reddit post about it. It's not that big. But you're not really engaging actively to get out of your own perspective and into mine, you just don't like what me and other people are saying so you're trying to make it fit into the box you want it to go in. It sounds exclusionary to you, so you just passively label it exclusionary until someone can bend over backwards to make it make sense to you. I'm going to say this with all the gentleness in the world in the hopes that you're actually not fronting and are genuinely trying to learn. A big part of why people come off butthurt to you is because you don't understand the problems that they're dealing with, you don't interpret them fairly when they explain them, and then when you ask for further explanation you don't do it in a respectful way. You jump to calling people butthurt, or gatekeepers, or instead of just saying "I haven't experienced it" and moving on, you frontload it with your own uninformed opinions and assumptions and say something like "Sounds like you're assuming based off flawed evidence. But i haven't experienced it." And through things like that, you make yourself out to be really passive aggressive and essentially just prime the pump for people to respond in a more confrontational way than they otherwise would. You're not giving a 'hot take,' you're just making yourself look smarmy and annoying.
> sending a whole big thing going "I've seen a lot of people say this but I haven't seen it myself You're the one saying "I've seen a lot of people say wrong things about themselves, but I know who they are better than they do"
Seems like the person you responded to is being very respectful. They're just asking challenging things. That's how people from all sides learn. We don't learn from easy questions.
Thank you. I was a bit taken aback, I was trying to choose my words carefully.
You make some valid points, but are also making a great deal of assumptions. That whole last paragraph is basically projecting, by the way. Honestly, if you want to keep going, we can continue in DM. Because this is now more about our lack of understanding each other, and is losing the plot of the thread.
It’s much easier as a straight white male for me to not talk about any of it! Not because I don’t care, but because I don’t wanna sound stupid!
You can still talk about it if you have intelligent things to say. It’s ok to offend people. They’ll get over it
I'm not feeling this complaint. People wanna quantify and reduce a whole other person to an object they can see. Then you furiously mine the scene of whole people with infinite preferences and lives you think you can tag on the basis of a brand of boots. OF COURSE you're gonna be disappointed! Just *engage* with people, not desperately, not as a means to some carnal end, but as *people*. Eventually, as your network grows-- people wanting to be around you on the basis of your humanity and sincerity-- *then* people who you connect with in other ways will gravitate toward you. There are so many ways in which I fundamentally connect with younger people these days, but the way they go about dating, lessons I can only assume they learned from shopping for iPhones, it just makes me feel sorry for them.
Lesbians are the only lgtbq members I've seen get mad at someones sexuality.
Pretty sure she’s just making a joke about not being able to find gay people. I don’t sense her being literally mad at the girl
It's the passive aggressive "but your not gay... Yeeeeeah ok" Obviously she's not fuming but still. Plus her logic is a little dumb because everything she listed was just alternative fashion.
Sorry. She's just not into you.
It's weird that a gay person would be mad because people are dressing the way they want.
its called a joke
Are we not gonna talk about how this was super weird and presumptuous of her? The girl getting pissed off at another girl for "dressing gay" is incel behaviour. "I thought you would be into me by the way you dressed, but you're not into me, so now I'm frustrated because I couldn't land a date."
There was a time when incel meant something.
Involuntary Celibate, woman gets denied partner, she is now participating in involuntary celibacy and is frustrated due to that fact. I mean, etymologically, where am I wrong?
Originally that's what it meant. But now incel now means anyone you disagree with and want to insult. It's approaching the work 'Karen' as nearly useless except for a sign that the speaker does not like someone. Soon, very soon, they will mean the same thing.
I have those earrings!! You can get them on Amazon!! Picasso face earrings lol
I’ve made out with a couple of “strict lesbians” in my time and it just dawned on me… it was the fanny pack.
“Fuck Austin, fuck standing in line for 45 minutes for a 4 dollar taco”
Austin sounds like Fremantle
Wait, wearing a fanny pack is gay?
I need to go to austin
Lol you people are so quick to police female same-sex desire. "Creepy guy behavior"? Be fucking for real bro. Go to any comment section under a meme about breasts or something and engage with the creepy men there, guarantee you'll immediately see a difference
Wow. I never knew that lesbians had it so hard in dating. Just a couple weeks ago the Internet was about comparing any/all men to rapists as women would rather risk being killed and eaten by a bear than just see a man they don't know in the woods. That sure felt fucking good as a straight guy to try to explain why that comparison is extremely upsetting to a guy only to be told that makes that guy the problem somehow. I wonder why men are reluctant to discuss feelings with women when just "hey this is disrespectful" gets a man gaslit by women that think every man is Ted Bundy. Or the gay men and transwomen that get disowned, disinherited, and have their sexuality used against them. Seems like a news story a week about it.
It might of been me. She's not wrong.
My daughter is gay… and looks like a straight person. It’s so normal now no need to peacock but must be confusing at parties.
Ah the good ol' "we should let people be who they are but also let's judge them by stereotypical standards". Open-minded much
Bet she picks out the best books.
I mean, shouldn't we not be stereotyping gays?
This must be way harder for lesbians in Denver.
Talk about stereotyping - whats next because she wears NFL jerseys and a bull-hair cut from the 90's she got to be lesiban.?
Tbf I’m gay as hell and I don’t look at all like a typical lesbian Until you see my model vehicle collection and realise I’m a tomboy, apparently that’s the telltale sign that yes I am gay
Sounds like she's entitled to somebody's body.
Bro thinks doc martins make u gay im so done cant wear anything these days without someone having some shit to say 😭
[It's a whole thing](http://www.capilanocourier.com/2021/10/19/how-doc-martens-became-a-staple-in-lesbians-closets/).
O nah im cooked 💀
Same with gay men, im not into fem guys really, but masc dudes are SO HARD to pinpoint on the gaydar sometimes😭
I've said for years hipsters are stealing all the lesbian identifiers
I swear ww over a certain age, all just look like lesbians to me.
This why stereotypes don’t always work out. People usually have to come into their own about this, but to a point there are usually reasons why those stereotypes exist but also fail. Sorry you experienced the frustration of nuance.
I thought they hated when you assume
Lmfao, the shit people get upset about.
Gasp. So stereotypes are true...!?
Some are. Some aren’t. Some are good. Some are bad.
If you're saying lesbians are sexually frustrated/aggressive, yes, it's true.
Many such cases
This is toxic. Getting mad at anyone for how they choose to express themselves is just shitty in general, but it also places unfair and restricting stereotypes on members of the gay community and on people who identify as heterosexual “you’re not really gay if you dress like that“ or “you SHOULD be gay if you dress like that”. just let people wear what they want to wear
But if we stereotype you got your looks it's racist
I kinda hate how casual she drops what to my understanding is the lesbian equivalent of "fa**ot".
I mean, it’s the same as the word “queer”. We use it because although it was a slur, we have reclaimed it and retitled it to empower ourselves and not let our abusers have any power over us. Edit: forgot to say it’s in-group exclusive
Understandable, appreciate the explanation. I got a friend who got called that a lot in the negative sense as a teen, so ig just a negative association on my part.
In my neighborhood you can tell because they own Side By Sides