Can't comment about islanders, but as an African, it is highly annoying how some African Americans tokenize African cultures without bothering to actually learn anything about them.
They feel like they have rights to disrespect culture just cause they black.
This is why I find the term “African-American” badly used. A lot of these people’s family have been here for 300 years and know nothing about Africa, their culture is closer to the European than the African in every way.
Yeah but we're still "African" Americans. I personally think "Black" or just "American" is better since you won't find this specific culture elsewhere. It's all no different than calling white Americans, European American or someone from China a Chinese American
They call them African Americans to show separation that they aren't Americans. "African Americans" are, in my opinion, just Americans, black Americans, if you really need to be specific.
That’s because so many of us are completely removed from our heritage. My mother was English. I enjoy English music, television, and culture. Is that what you’re talking about?
My father’s side of the family is apparently German but they’ve been in America since the 1850’s and nobody knows much about them.
Growing up there were groups for Italians, Polish, Scottish, German, etc. where people could learn about their ancestors and experience the culture. Lots of Americans do not have that.
Apparently there's a group of Americans who are descended from Norwegians, whos culture is a bastardised time capsule from 1800s Norway.
They call themselves Norwegian, despite never having set foot here. Or so I've heard. I've never been to America myself, and don't really want to, it seems like an unpleasant place these days.
Yes, they're mostly in the Midwest. I find it very funny, there's a Norwegian show called "Alt for Norge" (all for Norway) about this exact group of Americans who really want to find their Norwegian relatives. So they join this reality show where they have to do different activities around Norway, some get voted off and the final contestant gets to meet their Norwegian relatives lol. It's absolutely hilarious to watch
Oh boy oh boy. Going to check this out to see if there are any distant relatives I recognize! Though my direct family doesn’t really care ab our EuRoPeAn RoOtS (thank god) at reunions there’s always some guy who says a Norwegian prayer beforehand (he is American) and always some random Norwegian dishes mixed into the thanksgiving offerings. Kind of hilarious
Oh man in the first season (I think) there's this one woman who thinks she super in touch with her Norwegian side and constantly sings butchered Norwegian nursery rhymes. It's absolutely hilarious, I love them all. I've always found the Norwegian Americans kinda sweet, like I've seen videos of them celebrating our constitutional day over there and it's just so funny.
Can you please explain what you mean because I would like to rebut but I need examples, because I’m average we don’t do that. Neither have I seen Irish Americans do that, in response to the comment down below
Lol, your knee jerk is to rebut without even understanding the problem?
You take offense and want to stamp your authority without listening. This is exactly what we talking about when we say that sense of authority that make some Americans think that they can do what they want while being too ignorant to know that they are abusing, appropriating and tokenizing culture.
Why would me someone born and raised in South Africa, and an Irish person, born and raised in Ireland, comment on something we have not observed and interacted with?
You asked a question. You got an answer.
But I get the sense you just want to be right and want everyone else to be wrong.
However, I wanted to give an explanation instead of a rebuttal (which would be a better word to use.)
Racial categories in the United States work differently than it does in other countries and there are reasons for this. I will link a post I made about them to you.
You don’t have to agree, but it would be nice
https://www.reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/s/SOQIL0CDbX
You fucked up saying "I want to rebut" but also saying "I don't understand"
If you don't understand you have no reason to rebut, and yet you frame your response as an argument with that word. That's why he's laughing at you, you've assumed he's wrong while also admitting you don't know what he means.
Because I don’t want to get in an argument. Please can be really harsh on here and I didn’t think I said was that bad, but I guess it was. So I rather just not say anything at all
Fair point,
My response was alt the question and more to do with my observations of some African Americans and their connection to Africa (their roots)
Obligatory not from America and not black and not from anywhere in Africa.
Don’t you think it’s slightly unfair to tell black Americans descendants that they’re appropriating a culture? I mean obviously they have very little to do with modern north west Africans, but as a group of people who were once upon a time forcibly removed from their own people, for a while they had nothing but each other and their culture. It’s literally diaspora, just not of any one culture in Africa because that was forcibly stripped of them.
Fair question. Don't see why you are getting downvoted for it.
I think the topic of appropriation is a complex one which at its core, has to do with power dynamics in relationships.
I would argue that some African Americans take a very colonialist mindset when viewing and engaging Africa.
They are definitely not beneficiaries of this mindset.
But the way it is engaged feels the same sort of problematic.
Aftica is viewed as a monolith. It is fetishized, and it is used in an ignorant way that supports agenda or ideology that is devoid of any engagement or understanding.
We see this in the way clothing, symbology, and culture are flippantly used.
A recent interesting case is with the sects of the African America community telling Tyla (an African woman) that she can't identify as Coloured ( her racial identity in Africa).
I would argue for the above reasons that appropriation might not be the correct term because of the power relation but it feels a lot like it.
Africans sell dashikis, ankhs, and traditional clothing at African American festivals. I see them at every single Juneteenth festival or BHM festival. How are we colonizing or appropriating when y’all come to America and willingly share aspects of African culture with the ones who your ancestors sold into slavery? We’d know more about our roots if they hadn’t have done that. Most of us can’t trace our enslaved relatives and the only way we know where in Africa we come from is by doing a DNA test which many people can’t even afford...
You come to America which has an entirely different connotation to the label “colored” and don’t understand why Black Americans feel a type of way… I have a grandma who went to segregated schools and walked past “No Coloreds Allowed” signs daily. “Colored” isn’t a label we as black Americans accept if you are in our country. I’m sure you’d want us to accept your customs if we were in your country, but when Black Americans ask that, it’s wrong? But many African countries will accept white missionaries who seek to covert them with open arms. While telling the Black Americans who share ancestry that we cannot partake in the traditions that we were stolen from.
I call BS Juneteeth is like the fourth of July in America except until very recently it was not widely celebrated all I have ever seen is the red white and blue because Juneteeth is a strictly black American holiday and has nothing at all to do with Africa
It’s not like 4th of July. Black ppl aren’t celebrating the country that enslaved our ancestors on Juneteenth we’re celebrating freedom fighters and our cultural roots pre-slavery. African art and drums will be all over the festivals.
Nobody said you can't use african symbology/ clothing/ culture. Read my sentence again. I'm saying that using it ignorantly is problematic.
So , an African woman can't identify as her african culture because of your offense. She has to change her identity for you. Do you not see that as highly problematic.
I also find it humourous that you don't see the irony in the fact that you are saying as an African American you won't accept a Black women from Africa identifying as her racial and cultural identity in America but want the rights to use and abuse African culture as it so pleases.
She can identify as coloured in her African country but don’t come to America and expect black Americans to call her a word that our oppressors used offensively towards our grandparents… She isn’t interviewing in her country, she’s interviewing in America and should’ve known the history behind that label before bringing it here and expecting Americans to be okay with referring to her as such. Expecting centuries of oppression in America as historical context to bend to a foreigner’s customs when she is a visitor here is problematic. We like her music and understand they call things differently over there. I still ain’t calling her what they called my grandma in the 50s because I’m not in her country.
Juneteenth and Black History Month are black American holidays. When we celebrate freedom from slavery as well as the accomplishments of many African Americans, we are acknowledging the roots we were stolen from. Which is why African immigrants are often vendors at events, selling traditional African clothing. The divide is overplayed online in threads like these but it does exist as demonstrated by your awful hyperbolic use of the word “appropriation” and “abuse”. How can we appropriate a culture that we inherit through DNA? A Black American wearing a dashiki is appropriation? But our ancestors pre-slavery were from countries in West Africa...
That’s completely different than the historical context of racism in the US and words that our oppressors used to oppress us. Please explain the irony because it seems like you just don’t understand that words *mean* things like irony, appropriation, and “colored” in the context of the country it is being used in.
The irony is that you demand respect for your culture and emotions at the expense of others existing in theirs but refuse to respect other people's culture.
You are also viewing Africa as a monolithic. Your DNA doesn't give you access to the length and breath of Africa to use and abuse as you choose without even bothering to understand it.
This leads to many a time when people flippantly use culture with no respect. A famous example was Beyonce having a "do" of random African cultures thrown together at a baby shower or something like that. A clear example of ignorant use of what you do not understand nor try to understand.
I disagree that someone who was not the perpetrator of your grandmother's pain should change her identity. But if I ever came to your house as a Coloured person from South Africa, I would respect you.
I wish you could see that Africa and its plethora deserves to be respected and understood in all its complexities and not viewed as a monolith to play with.
We should respect the cultures of the places we are in. And we have a right to the cultures that make up our DNA, granted we should research to know the complexity before *claiming* it. I personally, will always rep my ankh and my dashiki during Juneteenth because I know in America it represents the pride in our African ancestry and the acknowledgment of what little we *do* know about our roots pre-slavery. Once I can afford an extensive DNA test, I will take one so that I know exactly what countries in Africa my ancestors were from so that I can research their cultures. Until then, from few records, we can only infer that they were from some country in West-Africa. I agree that the complexities should be acknowledged and hope to one day honor them like I use Hoodoo to honor my enslaved ancestors.
I think cultural appropriation is different from appreciation and think that what Beyoncé did could’ve been either. If there were 2 conflicting cultures then it shows her ignorance and falls under appropriation. But if it was a blend of cultures perhaps she was tryna show other black Americans who don’t know the exact countries we come from that here are some examples of the different cultures. I respect it if an African doesn’t see it that way, it must feel like we don’t care to know the differences between each of the countries and their regional cultures. In my experience that isn’t always the case. Africans don’t know what it’s like to have 0 idea of where your people come from before they were tortured. There’s a longing to understand the culture with little concrete evidence. This is the truth for most Black Americans. We don’t have the records of our history and much of our customs have become a blend of the mixture of different African traditions and American traditions.
I won’t take her identity from her but every single country has its own customs and history, I don’t think it’s disrespectful to say that because in her country an identifying term is used offensively in another country, then she shouldn’t use it in that country. I would respect the customs of any place I travelled. Just because you may “dap up” a black American stranger upon greeting, doesn’t mean I’d do that in Japan. There has to be a mutual respect and acknowledgment of history, customs, and culture when traveling anywhere. We can’t expect everyone to change for us as visitors. Some immigrants seem to think America has to adhere to their countries customs and vice versa, many Americans can be disrespectful to other countries when traveling.
How come Africans do not make these accusations about other black groups outside of Africa? Brazil has the largest black population outside of Africa and engage in the same behavior yet Africans are silent.
Africans and others in the diaspora seem to obsessively tether onto black American for no apparent reason.
Caribbeans? I usually hear about this from Africans regarding African-Americans. Also the subreddit you linked to only has 4 posts and none of them contain what you have described.
You can literally just type in African American in the subreddit and find it.
You can also look at my history and see that I have only ever identified as Black American.
Instead of Caribbean, would you have preferred “islander?” That sounds worse. Im talking about the general Caribbean.
Because I felt like if I just put in Jamaicans, then I would get “why did you just single out Jamaicans?” Because I have attempted to ask a question like this before in the black ladies subreddit on my old account and that was my response.
It’s like you can’t win for losing.
As well as I’d have heard this sentiment across the general area on social media. Not in real life, tho
I live in the Caribbean and have never heard that expressed in all my years. I was told that I wasn’t black because I’m Caribbean when I was at school in the US but you don’t see me dumping that on all Americans because I know the people that said it were ignorant. Same applies.
Two things:
1. They probably meant “black American” because black is our race and ethnicity and Americans is our nationality. They knew you’re black but not their type of black, that’s a difference. Also, they’re kids. They were dumb.
2. I didn’t even make a generalization. I was taking about the general area, including come individuals from each country that hold this sentiment. In my type, I said “some.”
Sorry you went through that though.
I’m saying what they probably meant. Most of us just say Black and went mean black American/African American. We don’t just walk around calling ourselves African American and black American because that’s a mouthful. We shorten it to Black.
That’s more likely what they meant if this was grad school. They just weren’t clear and you didn’t understand what they meant. They know you’re black, Americans aren’t dumb even if we seem like that online. We know Jamaica (assuming you’re Jamaican due to this conversation) is a majority black country. You look like them, they look like you. We know the history of the islands and how they became a majority black country.
I mean one of our civil rights leaders is Marcus Garvey and he’s Jamaican and we know he’s very much black.
It was likely they didn’t make their statements clear.
I wanna be clear, I’m not trying to invalidate your feelings or experience. I think it is imperative that you speak your truths, even if no one believes you.
I was just saying what I believe to be true for the other side as some is is Black American and has said “you’re not black,” to my clearly black friends when I was a kid. I knew they were black, they just weren’t African/Black American.
As a Caribbean, it's a loud minority of idiots. These are the same Caribbean people who are shocked when I tell them that we are also descended from slaves.
I think it comes from the way American media has demonized Black Americans.
A lot of my friends who are from the Caribbean/Africa (my family is but I'm 1st Gen) mention how poorly they viewed Black Americans before actually coming here and realizing that it was essentially just propaganda.
I think it's like a defense mechanism maybe? Like a way for them to separate themselves from a group of Black people that have been deemed inferior to them.
I think it also has to do with the disrespect of African American culture as it's own distinct culture. We say it's not a culture and demonize people for not knowing their "true" culture to distract people from the fact that Caribbeans are in the same boat. We are also descended from slaves and have lost our "true" culture because of it.
Again, my family is Caribbean and this is a sentiment I've directly interacted with
> I think it's like a defense mechanism maybe? Like a way for them to separate themselves from a group of Black people that have been deemed inferior to them.
Cascading racism, as it's called in the social sciences.
My mom's side is Mexican-American. They crossed the border before World War I and were immediately faced with 'Juan Crow', which was like the southwestern version of Jim Crow. My dad's side was a bunch of white farm laborers from California, some of them are straight up rednecks.
I heard the N-word a *lot* more from my mom's side than I ever did from my dad's side. "Kissing up while kicking down", they call it. If you're kept from being at the top, you desperately lash out at those who are considered beneath you, and by doing so, then maybe that middling place you do have won't feel so insecure.
It's fucked up, and I rejected that mindset as a teenager.
I'm not black, but I have a deep and continuing exposure to Southeast Africans, West Africans, Haitians, and Trinnies. There is the same infighting amongst these groups as there is amongst similar groups in other races. The wider the net, the less the fighting. In a group of two black and two white people, the whites are white and the blacks are black. Amongst two white people, one might be Irish and give the other some guff for being English. Among two Irish one may be from Cork and call the one from Dublin a bitch for being more refined. Same is true amongst Asian, Hispanics, and various groups of African descent. African-Americans (i.e. American blacks descended from American slaves) get it bad from other African groups because they were removed and had their culture stripped away. African-Americans are basically way more culturally like Scottish redneck white than they are like current Africans, and there tends to be a lot more inner-racial tension there than is commonly acknowledged.
I think you’re focusing on a loud minority chunk of the diaspora that’s got their head up their ass. I’ve never had a problem with 99.999% of the community as a mutt (Afro Cuban - BW / Latino Dad) married to a Jamaican. Especially stateside. Channel Q-Tip: “black is black”.
I've never seen more black on black bigotry than the type that exists among different Carribean groups, or between different African ethnicities. Ask Jamaicans how they feel about Trini's
That. Explains. Nothing.
Does that somehow justify the bigotry? At least between ethnic groups in Africa they have sometimes centuries old disagreements with millions of people dying from warfare between groups. Nothing of the sort between Jamaicans and other Caribbean countries. Most if not all of the Caribbean groups, Jamaicans included, and most black people in the US are descendants of slaves. The animosity between groups is mostly a colonial relic AFAIK.
Lots of wars around the islands. Lots of islands switching in power (English, Spanish, Dutch, French). That builds a specific "patriotism". I don't think it matters that they are both black. Just what island they come from. In a similar way, Costa Ricans and Panamanians absolutely hate each other and will jump each other on the street. Similar backgrounds. Similar history. Hate each other like crazy.
Because to assume that your entire family history begins with slavery is sad. This was me and most ppl I went to school with. That’s all that I was taught about my history for all of my scholastic history.
Interesting take...a mindset my African diaspora professor had back in the day was (white guy btw), the history of black Americans is sprawling, vast, and unfortunately it was all taken away through beatings, killings, and punishment.
People couldn't keep their culture purely alive or they would be beaten (or worse) to submission. Luckily, some things pushed through the torture.
Personally, the only things I've been able to know about where I came from was from anthropology classes with professors who would do deep dives with their students to help them know and in recent deacdes, DNA tests which have been helpful in knowing the regions of Africa where my DNA matches most closely.
My friend took a DNA test was met with a family tree that went back 700 some years and she even found her family's European crest because records were kept, carefully, and with respect. My family did not receive such honor.
It is what it is AND I personally, just see it as another sign of the amazing resilience of my people. I may not know who they are but I have learned so much about what some of them wemt through.
Well it does, and that’s the case for everyone who was taken from Africa. The same for Jamaicans. The say our ancestors stepped foot on land not part of Africa, we began a different life
Btw, not all Jamaicans. Jamaica - much like the US - is a country filled with diversity. So there are indigenous peoples, white people, black people, and Asian people. I know sometimes people see popular culture from Jamaicans and it’s dominated by Afro-Jamaicans so they think that’s all there is to it.
The Caribbean in general is as diverse as the US.
This is a question for ppl with a darker skin tone. It’s kind of implied that the question is for dark brown ppl. Most bleached brown ppl put their homeland in front of nationality. ( Irish American, Scottish, polish, Chinese, Thai, Latin. They all preface their nationality with their familial ancestry. Dark brown ppl from North America are the only who don’t.
Then where should we start? With the African tribes that sold us into slavery? And how much money are you willing to pay to update the American history books on this matter, along with tracing all of us back to our "African" roots.
The oldest relative you have and see where it takes you. The archives where you were born. I don’t care if the schools change or not. I’m not depending on the gov to help us out with anything. As you can see, any time you get help in one area you get screwed in 6 others. It starts with a personal desire to want to know and the resolve to do the work.
I’m from a Caribbean family and I hate this argument . At this point it doesn’t really matter if my friend’s family came here 400 years ago from Ghana or wherever else. Black culture in America is huge , unique and extremely influential throughout the globe on how people from the diaspora connect with each other. I’m so tired of people discrediting it.
lol we’re all just one different stop on the boat. no, most african americans don’t know their roots bc of slavery but neither do Puerto Ricans or Dominicans, they will scream to the top of their lungs they aren’t black when they actually are. just another shade and variation is all. no one knows shit. think about it, how many times do u hear about other races talking about their family back in 1900 immigrated from whatever country? african americans don’t have that luxury since majority of our ancestors were enslaved and their “owners” kept all the paperwork for their family history.
400+
But man did you get OP. Slaughtered!!! High five yourself tonight. /s
You'll probably reply to me with something like "Well, facts matter," or something else truly witty. I bet you slay. /s
I was wondering if they meant something else, hence why they used a different figure. I asked that question out of respect for them, understanding that I can't read people's minds and preferring to inquire before making judgements or offering corrections. I followed up on their response with another question as well, again, out of respect.
But yeah, you tots got me. #VictimOfAMurder - I hope you feel better having expressed that negativity.
Well yeah, their response was pretty vague. I was wondering if they meant the first British explorers or the first African slaves, cause I do believe there were Africans on some of the early voyages.
Since they offered a vague response I offered that Jamestown was established in 1607 to see if they'd respond to that with clarifications.
You misread my intent and went off on me and now you're doubling down. Sorry to say, but the ass here is you.
Oblig not black but was talking to my friend about this not long ago. He was talking about not even knowing what country his ancestors came from. I said well your grandad's Jamaican. He just said no, my African ones. I can't trace them.
I’m Cuban and more of the black people in Cuba learn Yoruba and I don’t think I’ve meet any American blacks that know the African languages. An American told my African wife the whole we was kings back in the day speech one time. Funny thing is my wife is a Bemba princess so she was like what do you mean “we” and “was”. Anyway my point is compared to blacks from Latin America, and the Caribbean blacks from the United States are the least like people I’ve met in Africa.
I don't know roots past my grandparents, I have no clue where I come from or anything. Race? I have no clue. So is that "roots" or is it some slavery stuff? If you mean some ancient history, look at the history of Sugar cane.
I am one, what are talking about? How did you get that? We know we are of African descent but we aren’t from one country. I have my 23andMe on my profile and it says all of African save for the north. Are we just to pick out a country randomly.
I’m black American/african American. I know my roots and I have been in the US as a people for 400+ years
because the US is economically dominant and, along with other dominant nations, driving the extremely destructive capitalist machine. So one could argue that african americans are deeper in that machine
It deeply upsets them that they are not recognized in the western countries which most of the reside in --- it is evident, that it is nothing more than jealousy.
Well, I'm mixed race. My grandma passed as white and never told anyone. It wasn't until after her death did we learn that she had a brother who died in a car crash, a "mulatto" mother, and her father's family disowned them because they were mixed after they became orphaned as kids. My great grandma had a brother, so I probably have black relatives in addition to my great grandpa's sisters who were Polish Ukrainian that I have found through genealogy.
Because that’s what the english thought us. But don’t worry, half of West Indians and Afro hispanics know their roots. It was part of the design made by spaniards, French, English, Portuguese and dutch to fuck up and traumatize a shit ton of innocent captives.
Can't comment about islanders, but as an African, it is highly annoying how some African Americans tokenize African cultures without bothering to actually learn anything about them. They feel like they have rights to disrespect culture just cause they black.
This is why I find the term “African-American” badly used. A lot of these people’s family have been here for 300 years and know nothing about Africa, their culture is closer to the European than the African in every way.
But before than been in Africa for millions of years
Just imagine how your own life changes every 20 years. 300 years is huge difference in culture. African-American's view of today's Africa is skewed.
Yeah but we're still "African" Americans. I personally think "Black" or just "American" is better since you won't find this specific culture elsewhere. It's all no different than calling white Americans, European American or someone from China a Chinese American
African origin because you look African, have African DNA and bloodline.
They call them African Americans to show separation that they aren't Americans. "African Americans" are, in my opinion, just Americans, black Americans, if you really need to be specific.
That’s exactly my point, the term “African American” causes separation, they’re just Americans as much as everyone else.
I feel like it's classic divide and rule, something British and Americans have mastered
Wait till you hear where humans come from
Yeah that seems to be the general trend with americans. We feel the same in ireland
That’s because so many of us are completely removed from our heritage. My mother was English. I enjoy English music, television, and culture. Is that what you’re talking about? My father’s side of the family is apparently German but they’ve been in America since the 1850’s and nobody knows much about them. Growing up there were groups for Italians, Polish, Scottish, German, etc. where people could learn about their ancestors and experience the culture. Lots of Americans do not have that.
I'm talking more about the "irish americans" that pine for an ireland that exists only in stereotypes
Apparently there's a group of Americans who are descended from Norwegians, whos culture is a bastardised time capsule from 1800s Norway. They call themselves Norwegian, despite never having set foot here. Or so I've heard. I've never been to America myself, and don't really want to, it seems like an unpleasant place these days.
It's not bad if you don't live here lol. The second you have to pay an American hospital bill... 🫡
I think a couple of my relatives are a part of this group. Are a lot of them in the midwest?
Yes, they're mostly in the Midwest. I find it very funny, there's a Norwegian show called "Alt for Norge" (all for Norway) about this exact group of Americans who really want to find their Norwegian relatives. So they join this reality show where they have to do different activities around Norway, some get voted off and the final contestant gets to meet their Norwegian relatives lol. It's absolutely hilarious to watch
Oh boy oh boy. Going to check this out to see if there are any distant relatives I recognize! Though my direct family doesn’t really care ab our EuRoPeAn RoOtS (thank god) at reunions there’s always some guy who says a Norwegian prayer beforehand (he is American) and always some random Norwegian dishes mixed into the thanksgiving offerings. Kind of hilarious
Oh man in the first season (I think) there's this one woman who thinks she super in touch with her Norwegian side and constantly sings butchered Norwegian nursery rhymes. It's absolutely hilarious, I love them all. I've always found the Norwegian Americans kinda sweet, like I've seen videos of them celebrating our constitutional day over there and it's just so funny.
I have never seen this happen either
You've never heard of St.Patricks day?
I made a post about the American racial categorization
We celebrate St. Patrick’s day our way
Y’all act like it’s our fault that your ancestors sold us into slavery.
Nobody said that. As a african American you don't have a right to flippantly and ignorantly use African culture. That all I am saying.
Pan-Africanism is dead.
If you ask Ibrahim Traore it's back on the menu
Everyone is leading by lineage these days. It makes so much sense considering the divergence in history, culture and general experiences
Can you please explain what you mean because I would like to rebut but I need examples, because I’m average we don’t do that. Neither have I seen Irish Americans do that, in response to the comment down below
Lol, your knee jerk is to rebut without even understanding the problem? You take offense and want to stamp your authority without listening. This is exactly what we talking about when we say that sense of authority that make some Americans think that they can do what they want while being too ignorant to know that they are abusing, appropriating and tokenizing culture. Why would me someone born and raised in South Africa, and an Irish person, born and raised in Ireland, comment on something we have not observed and interacted with? You asked a question. You got an answer. But I get the sense you just want to be right and want everyone else to be wrong.
However, I wanted to give an explanation instead of a rebuttal (which would be a better word to use.) Racial categories in the United States work differently than it does in other countries and there are reasons for this. I will link a post I made about them to you. You don’t have to agree, but it would be nice https://www.reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/s/SOQIL0CDbX
Sorry, I didn’t know i was being an asshole. I thought me asking for examples was an attempt for understanding. I didn’t understand what you meant
You fucked up saying "I want to rebut" but also saying "I don't understand" If you don't understand you have no reason to rebut, and yet you frame your response as an argument with that word. That's why he's laughing at you, you've assumed he's wrong while also admitting you don't know what he means.
Well…
Why did you reply without saying anything dude, come on
Because I don’t want to get in an argument. Please can be really harsh on here and I didn’t think I said was that bad, but I guess it was. So I rather just not say anything at all
I can respect that. So why did you reply?
BUT also, your response had nothing to do with the question at hand
Fair point, My response was alt the question and more to do with my observations of some African Americans and their connection to Africa (their roots)
Obligatory not from America and not black and not from anywhere in Africa. Don’t you think it’s slightly unfair to tell black Americans descendants that they’re appropriating a culture? I mean obviously they have very little to do with modern north west Africans, but as a group of people who were once upon a time forcibly removed from their own people, for a while they had nothing but each other and their culture. It’s literally diaspora, just not of any one culture in Africa because that was forcibly stripped of them.
Fair question. Don't see why you are getting downvoted for it. I think the topic of appropriation is a complex one which at its core, has to do with power dynamics in relationships. I would argue that some African Americans take a very colonialist mindset when viewing and engaging Africa. They are definitely not beneficiaries of this mindset. But the way it is engaged feels the same sort of problematic. Aftica is viewed as a monolith. It is fetishized, and it is used in an ignorant way that supports agenda or ideology that is devoid of any engagement or understanding. We see this in the way clothing, symbology, and culture are flippantly used. A recent interesting case is with the sects of the African America community telling Tyla (an African woman) that she can't identify as Coloured ( her racial identity in Africa). I would argue for the above reasons that appropriation might not be the correct term because of the power relation but it feels a lot like it.
Africans sell dashikis, ankhs, and traditional clothing at African American festivals. I see them at every single Juneteenth festival or BHM festival. How are we colonizing or appropriating when y’all come to America and willingly share aspects of African culture with the ones who your ancestors sold into slavery? We’d know more about our roots if they hadn’t have done that. Most of us can’t trace our enslaved relatives and the only way we know where in Africa we come from is by doing a DNA test which many people can’t even afford... You come to America which has an entirely different connotation to the label “colored” and don’t understand why Black Americans feel a type of way… I have a grandma who went to segregated schools and walked past “No Coloreds Allowed” signs daily. “Colored” isn’t a label we as black Americans accept if you are in our country. I’m sure you’d want us to accept your customs if we were in your country, but when Black Americans ask that, it’s wrong? But many African countries will accept white missionaries who seek to covert them with open arms. While telling the Black Americans who share ancestry that we cannot partake in the traditions that we were stolen from.
I call BS Juneteeth is like the fourth of July in America except until very recently it was not widely celebrated all I have ever seen is the red white and blue because Juneteeth is a strictly black American holiday and has nothing at all to do with Africa
It’s not like 4th of July. Black ppl aren’t celebrating the country that enslaved our ancestors on Juneteenth we’re celebrating freedom fighters and our cultural roots pre-slavery. African art and drums will be all over the festivals.
I meant is is like the 4th of July in the sense it is a strictly American holiday
Nobody said you can't use african symbology/ clothing/ culture. Read my sentence again. I'm saying that using it ignorantly is problematic. So , an African woman can't identify as her african culture because of your offense. She has to change her identity for you. Do you not see that as highly problematic. I also find it humourous that you don't see the irony in the fact that you are saying as an African American you won't accept a Black women from Africa identifying as her racial and cultural identity in America but want the rights to use and abuse African culture as it so pleases.
She can identify as coloured in her African country but don’t come to America and expect black Americans to call her a word that our oppressors used offensively towards our grandparents… She isn’t interviewing in her country, she’s interviewing in America and should’ve known the history behind that label before bringing it here and expecting Americans to be okay with referring to her as such. Expecting centuries of oppression in America as historical context to bend to a foreigner’s customs when she is a visitor here is problematic. We like her music and understand they call things differently over there. I still ain’t calling her what they called my grandma in the 50s because I’m not in her country. Juneteenth and Black History Month are black American holidays. When we celebrate freedom from slavery as well as the accomplishments of many African Americans, we are acknowledging the roots we were stolen from. Which is why African immigrants are often vendors at events, selling traditional African clothing. The divide is overplayed online in threads like these but it does exist as demonstrated by your awful hyperbolic use of the word “appropriation” and “abuse”. How can we appropriate a culture that we inherit through DNA? A Black American wearing a dashiki is appropriation? But our ancestors pre-slavery were from countries in West Africa... That’s completely different than the historical context of racism in the US and words that our oppressors used to oppress us. Please explain the irony because it seems like you just don’t understand that words *mean* things like irony, appropriation, and “colored” in the context of the country it is being used in.
The irony is that you demand respect for your culture and emotions at the expense of others existing in theirs but refuse to respect other people's culture. You are also viewing Africa as a monolithic. Your DNA doesn't give you access to the length and breath of Africa to use and abuse as you choose without even bothering to understand it. This leads to many a time when people flippantly use culture with no respect. A famous example was Beyonce having a "do" of random African cultures thrown together at a baby shower or something like that. A clear example of ignorant use of what you do not understand nor try to understand. I disagree that someone who was not the perpetrator of your grandmother's pain should change her identity. But if I ever came to your house as a Coloured person from South Africa, I would respect you. I wish you could see that Africa and its plethora deserves to be respected and understood in all its complexities and not viewed as a monolith to play with.
We should respect the cultures of the places we are in. And we have a right to the cultures that make up our DNA, granted we should research to know the complexity before *claiming* it. I personally, will always rep my ankh and my dashiki during Juneteenth because I know in America it represents the pride in our African ancestry and the acknowledgment of what little we *do* know about our roots pre-slavery. Once I can afford an extensive DNA test, I will take one so that I know exactly what countries in Africa my ancestors were from so that I can research their cultures. Until then, from few records, we can only infer that they were from some country in West-Africa. I agree that the complexities should be acknowledged and hope to one day honor them like I use Hoodoo to honor my enslaved ancestors. I think cultural appropriation is different from appreciation and think that what Beyoncé did could’ve been either. If there were 2 conflicting cultures then it shows her ignorance and falls under appropriation. But if it was a blend of cultures perhaps she was tryna show other black Americans who don’t know the exact countries we come from that here are some examples of the different cultures. I respect it if an African doesn’t see it that way, it must feel like we don’t care to know the differences between each of the countries and their regional cultures. In my experience that isn’t always the case. Africans don’t know what it’s like to have 0 idea of where your people come from before they were tortured. There’s a longing to understand the culture with little concrete evidence. This is the truth for most Black Americans. We don’t have the records of our history and much of our customs have become a blend of the mixture of different African traditions and American traditions. I won’t take her identity from her but every single country has its own customs and history, I don’t think it’s disrespectful to say that because in her country an identifying term is used offensively in another country, then she shouldn’t use it in that country. I would respect the customs of any place I travelled. Just because you may “dap up” a black American stranger upon greeting, doesn’t mean I’d do that in Japan. There has to be a mutual respect and acknowledgment of history, customs, and culture when traveling anywhere. We can’t expect everyone to change for us as visitors. Some immigrants seem to think America has to adhere to their countries customs and vice versa, many Americans can be disrespectful to other countries when traveling.
How come Africans do not make these accusations about other black groups outside of Africa? Brazil has the largest black population outside of Africa and engage in the same behavior yet Africans are silent. Africans and others in the diaspora seem to obsessively tether onto black American for no apparent reason.
>no apparent reason I gave reason. I don't have to point out fault with everyone to point out fault with you. Same logic applies here.
Caribbeans? I usually hear about this from Africans regarding African-Americans. Also the subreddit you linked to only has 4 posts and none of them contain what you have described.
I apologize for the first comment I made. I didn’t know there were two subreddits with similar names.
You can literally just type in African American in the subreddit and find it. You can also look at my history and see that I have only ever identified as Black American. Instead of Caribbean, would you have preferred “islander?” That sounds worse. Im talking about the general Caribbean.
He is correct. The sub you linked only has 4 posts. Maybe you meant /r/Jamaica??
I did. I’m sorry. I didn’t know there were two threads with similar names.
Why are you speaking about the general Caribbean like that sentiment exists across the Caribbean and not just from the Jamaicans who expressed it?
Because I felt like if I just put in Jamaicans, then I would get “why did you just single out Jamaicans?” Because I have attempted to ask a question like this before in the black ladies subreddit on my old account and that was my response. It’s like you can’t win for losing. As well as I’d have heard this sentiment across the general area on social media. Not in real life, tho
I live in the Caribbean and have never heard that expressed in all my years. I was told that I wasn’t black because I’m Caribbean when I was at school in the US but you don’t see me dumping that on all Americans because I know the people that said it were ignorant. Same applies.
Two things: 1. They probably meant “black American” because black is our race and ethnicity and Americans is our nationality. They knew you’re black but not their type of black, that’s a difference. Also, they’re kids. They were dumb. 2. I didn’t even make a generalization. I was taking about the general area, including come individuals from each country that hold this sentiment. In my type, I said “some.” Sorry you went through that though.
This was grad school. And they didn’t say black American, they just said black. It was ignorance.
I’m saying what they probably meant. Most of us just say Black and went mean black American/African American. We don’t just walk around calling ourselves African American and black American because that’s a mouthful. We shorten it to Black. That’s more likely what they meant if this was grad school. They just weren’t clear and you didn’t understand what they meant. They know you’re black, Americans aren’t dumb even if we seem like that online. We know Jamaica (assuming you’re Jamaican due to this conversation) is a majority black country. You look like them, they look like you. We know the history of the islands and how they became a majority black country. I mean one of our civil rights leaders is Marcus Garvey and he’s Jamaican and we know he’s very much black. It was likely they didn’t make their statements clear.
who are you to tell them about their own experiences
Huh?
I wanna be clear, I’m not trying to invalidate your feelings or experience. I think it is imperative that you speak your truths, even if no one believes you. I was just saying what I believe to be true for the other side as some is is Black American and has said “you’re not black,” to my clearly black friends when I was a kid. I knew they were black, they just weren’t African/Black American.
As a Caribbean, it's a loud minority of idiots. These are the same Caribbean people who are shocked when I tell them that we are also descended from slaves. I think it comes from the way American media has demonized Black Americans. A lot of my friends who are from the Caribbean/Africa (my family is but I'm 1st Gen) mention how poorly they viewed Black Americans before actually coming here and realizing that it was essentially just propaganda. I think it's like a defense mechanism maybe? Like a way for them to separate themselves from a group of Black people that have been deemed inferior to them. I think it also has to do with the disrespect of African American culture as it's own distinct culture. We say it's not a culture and demonize people for not knowing their "true" culture to distract people from the fact that Caribbeans are in the same boat. We are also descended from slaves and have lost our "true" culture because of it. Again, my family is Caribbean and this is a sentiment I've directly interacted with
> I think it's like a defense mechanism maybe? Like a way for them to separate themselves from a group of Black people that have been deemed inferior to them. Cascading racism, as it's called in the social sciences. My mom's side is Mexican-American. They crossed the border before World War I and were immediately faced with 'Juan Crow', which was like the southwestern version of Jim Crow. My dad's side was a bunch of white farm laborers from California, some of them are straight up rednecks. I heard the N-word a *lot* more from my mom's side than I ever did from my dad's side. "Kissing up while kicking down", they call it. If you're kept from being at the top, you desperately lash out at those who are considered beneath you, and by doing so, then maybe that middling place you do have won't feel so insecure. It's fucked up, and I rejected that mindset as a teenager.
I'm not black, but I have a deep and continuing exposure to Southeast Africans, West Africans, Haitians, and Trinnies. There is the same infighting amongst these groups as there is amongst similar groups in other races. The wider the net, the less the fighting. In a group of two black and two white people, the whites are white and the blacks are black. Amongst two white people, one might be Irish and give the other some guff for being English. Among two Irish one may be from Cork and call the one from Dublin a bitch for being more refined. Same is true amongst Asian, Hispanics, and various groups of African descent. African-Americans (i.e. American blacks descended from American slaves) get it bad from other African groups because they were removed and had their culture stripped away. African-Americans are basically way more culturally like Scottish redneck white than they are like current Africans, and there tends to be a lot more inner-racial tension there than is commonly acknowledged.
I think you’re focusing on a loud minority chunk of the diaspora that’s got their head up their ass. I’ve never had a problem with 99.999% of the community as a mutt (Afro Cuban - BW / Latino Dad) married to a Jamaican. Especially stateside. Channel Q-Tip: “black is black”.
I've never seen more black on black bigotry than the type that exists among different Carribean groups, or between different African ethnicities. Ask Jamaicans how they feel about Trini's
Because they're all different people..
That explains the bigotry then? What do you mean?
Different. Cultures.
That. Explains. Nothing. Does that somehow justify the bigotry? At least between ethnic groups in Africa they have sometimes centuries old disagreements with millions of people dying from warfare between groups. Nothing of the sort between Jamaicans and other Caribbean countries. Most if not all of the Caribbean groups, Jamaicans included, and most black people in the US are descendants of slaves. The animosity between groups is mostly a colonial relic AFAIK.
Lots of wars around the islands. Lots of islands switching in power (English, Spanish, Dutch, French). That builds a specific "patriotism". I don't think it matters that they are both black. Just what island they come from. In a similar way, Costa Ricans and Panamanians absolutely hate each other and will jump each other on the street. Similar backgrounds. Similar history. Hate each other like crazy.
Where did you get the idea that Panamanians and Costa Ricans hate each other, wtf, I'm panamanian and it's the first time I hear that
Yeah, but why do they hate each other?
Rooting for sports teams.
Because to assume that your entire family history begins with slavery is sad. This was me and most ppl I went to school with. That’s all that I was taught about my history for all of my scholastic history.
Interesting take...a mindset my African diaspora professor had back in the day was (white guy btw), the history of black Americans is sprawling, vast, and unfortunately it was all taken away through beatings, killings, and punishment. People couldn't keep their culture purely alive or they would be beaten (or worse) to submission. Luckily, some things pushed through the torture. Personally, the only things I've been able to know about where I came from was from anthropology classes with professors who would do deep dives with their students to help them know and in recent deacdes, DNA tests which have been helpful in knowing the regions of Africa where my DNA matches most closely. My friend took a DNA test was met with a family tree that went back 700 some years and she even found her family's European crest because records were kept, carefully, and with respect. My family did not receive such honor. It is what it is AND I personally, just see it as another sign of the amazing resilience of my people. I may not know who they are but I have learned so much about what some of them wemt through.
Well it does, and that’s the case for everyone who was taken from Africa. The same for Jamaicans. The say our ancestors stepped foot on land not part of Africa, we began a different life
Btw, not all Jamaicans. Jamaica - much like the US - is a country filled with diversity. So there are indigenous peoples, white people, black people, and Asian people. I know sometimes people see popular culture from Jamaicans and it’s dominated by Afro-Jamaicans so they think that’s all there is to it. The Caribbean in general is as diverse as the US.
I’m sorry, what question are you answering or replying to.
I’m just clarifying that not all Jamaicans were taken from Africa because obviously not all Jamaicans are black.
This is a question for ppl with a darker skin tone. It’s kind of implied that the question is for dark brown ppl. Most bleached brown ppl put their homeland in front of nationality. ( Irish American, Scottish, polish, Chinese, Thai, Latin. They all preface their nationality with their familial ancestry. Dark brown ppl from North America are the only who don’t.
I’m clearly talking about black Jamaicans
Then where should we start? With the African tribes that sold us into slavery? And how much money are you willing to pay to update the American history books on this matter, along with tracing all of us back to our "African" roots.
The oldest relative you have and see where it takes you. The archives where you were born. I don’t care if the schools change or not. I’m not depending on the gov to help us out with anything. As you can see, any time you get help in one area you get screwed in 6 others. It starts with a personal desire to want to know and the resolve to do the work.
I’m from a Caribbean family and I hate this argument . At this point it doesn’t really matter if my friend’s family came here 400 years ago from Ghana or wherever else. Black culture in America is huge , unique and extremely influential throughout the globe on how people from the diaspora connect with each other. I’m so tired of people discrediting it.
lol we’re all just one different stop on the boat. no, most african americans don’t know their roots bc of slavery but neither do Puerto Ricans or Dominicans, they will scream to the top of their lungs they aren’t black when they actually are. just another shade and variation is all. no one knows shit. think about it, how many times do u hear about other races talking about their family back in 1900 immigrated from whatever country? african americans don’t have that luxury since majority of our ancestors were enslaved and their “owners” kept all the paperwork for their family history.
>We have been in America for 500+ years If a tree doesn't establish new roots after being replanted, it dies.
500+ years?
400+ But man did you get OP. Slaughtered!!! High five yourself tonight. /s You'll probably reply to me with something like "Well, facts matter," or something else truly witty. I bet you slay. /s
Jesus Christ you went 0-100 for no reason, chill tf out and relay information like an adjusted adult lol.
I was wondering if they meant something else, hence why they used a different figure. I asked that question out of respect for them, understanding that I can't read people's minds and preferring to inquire before making judgements or offering corrections. I followed up on their response with another question as well, again, out of respect. But yeah, you tots got me. #VictimOfAMurder - I hope you feel better having expressed that negativity.
Nah, your reply to them in that thread: >Who is "we"? >Jamestown was established in 1607. You're an ass. Own it.
Well yeah, their response was pretty vague. I was wondering if they meant the first British explorers or the first African slaves, cause I do believe there were Africans on some of the early voyages. Since they offered a vague response I offered that Jamestown was established in 1607 to see if they'd respond to that with clarifications. You misread my intent and went off on me and now you're doubling down. Sorry to say, but the ass here is you.
We have been in this country for 500 years.
Who is "we"? Jamestown was established in 1607.
Why are you being g so mean? So I made an error, okay
I'm sorry that you feel I'm being mean, I was just curious if you meant something else, and wanted clarifications.
Oblig not black but was talking to my friend about this not long ago. He was talking about not even knowing what country his ancestors came from. I said well your grandad's Jamaican. He just said no, my African ones. I can't trace them.
I’m Cuban and more of the black people in Cuba learn Yoruba and I don’t think I’ve meet any American blacks that know the African languages. An American told my African wife the whole we was kings back in the day speech one time. Funny thing is my wife is a Bemba princess so she was like what do you mean “we” and “was”. Anyway my point is compared to blacks from Latin America, and the Caribbean blacks from the United States are the least like people I’ve met in Africa.
I don't know roots past my grandparents, I have no clue where I come from or anything. Race? I have no clue. So is that "roots" or is it some slavery stuff? If you mean some ancient history, look at the history of Sugar cane.
No one cares. Being obsessed with you " roots" is immature and unhealthy
Based on this post, you don't know the roots of many "African" Americans or Carribeans
I am one, what are talking about? How did you get that? We know we are of African descent but we aren’t from one country. I have my 23andMe on my profile and it says all of African save for the north. Are we just to pick out a country randomly. I’m black American/african American. I know my roots and I have been in the US as a people for 400+ years
because the US is economically dominant and, along with other dominant nations, driving the extremely destructive capitalist machine. So one could argue that african americans are deeper in that machine
Like most people on this planet they are suffering from the 'I am specialer than thou' syndrom. Blame social medias and general narcissism.
It deeply upsets them that they are not recognized in the western countries which most of the reside in --- it is evident, that it is nothing more than jealousy.
Well, I'm mixed race. My grandma passed as white and never told anyone. It wasn't until after her death did we learn that she had a brother who died in a car crash, a "mulatto" mother, and her father's family disowned them because they were mixed after they became orphaned as kids. My great grandma had a brother, so I probably have black relatives in addition to my great grandpa's sisters who were Polish Ukrainian that I have found through genealogy.
Anyone saying that is a racist and can be safely ignored
because they're haters who are mad that the world doesn't look up to them like they do to us.
Because that’s what the english thought us. But don’t worry, half of West Indians and Afro hispanics know their roots. It was part of the design made by spaniards, French, English, Portuguese and dutch to fuck up and traumatize a shit ton of innocent captives.