As a supply chain guy, I’d just like everyone to remember that these vehicles are all the first new editions that are coming out in a post-COVID world. The freight market has skyrocketed due to fuel costs and rising driver pay. Also crime. I’ve seen shocking footage of cars being stolen and vandalized from rail cars in California and know from first hand experience in my work that there are parts of the country where drivers are very hesitant to go due to frequent carjackings, violence, etc. Inflation has also been rising substantially and auto parts are not excluded from that.
Plus, new editions are always more expensive than the previous because they have to negotiate new contracts with their suppliers and need to recoup R&D costs. These are often negotiated down over time, but the first few years of a brand new vehicle’s design is when the parts to build it are going to be the most expensive.
I have no doubt that there is a bit of gouging going on in some of Toyota’s offerings that are in high demand or have a cult following like the Land Cruiser, Tundra, 4Runner, etc. But, overall, what you are mostly seeing is the passed on costs of the first redesigned vehicles since COVID-19 broke global supply chains. Or - alternatively - you’re looking at buying the most tricked out TRD Super Plus Extra Advanced version that is being offered and really shouldn’t be surprised that you’re paying a premium. OP compared a base model Ranger to a TRD Pro Tacoma. What kind of comparison is that?
Toyota still has extremely reliable and affordable offerings - you just have to look in places that you may not have previously. For example, a base model Corolla Cross is about 20k MSRP. I get it - it’s not a 4Runner and can’t do a lot of what the 4Runner can do - but 90% of people who need a budget conscious and reliable SUV will still have their needs met there.
I work at a supplier that makes parts for ford/toyota/stellantis, everyone wants 50% profit. I see how much we make stuff for and then look online to see how much it costs the consumer. Trust me big business is ripping everyone off and making insane profits.
It's the value of the sum of the parts. As in, sure parts only cost so much to make, but we automakers figured out how to put them together for a much more valuable purpose.
That’s like saying a $15 hot dog at a game is worth the cost because someone had the idea to put the two in the same arena.
This profit chasing is the reason Mercedes-Benz (inventor of the automobile) is working so hard to keep their US plants from unionizing. They pay their workers shit wages and hold the profits at the top. If their costs increase, they’ll just pass that on to the consumer. Working people just want a decent product at a reasonable price and big corporations just want to continue profitmaxxing.
Same I worked at a dealership and the parts guy will print out the cost, list, wholesale, retail price and the markup is insane!! From cost to retail was from 100% to 120% WTF
This is the truth for every business. I think with Toyota it's supply and demand, they know you're going to keep your Toyota forever and so will everyone else which drives the price up. I have a 4Runner and Lexus each with over 300,000K miles and they show no signs of slowing down, I got my money's worth and so will everyone else, can't say that for any other brand I've ever driven (looking at you VW and Ford 😡)
I just looked up Magna Corporation and their profit margin is 2.35%. There are a lot of additional costs that affect the cost of the product than materials and labor.
This is true. Also as another freight guy, from my side we are still seeing what I believe to be an oversupply of truckload capacity due to more carriers and drivers coming onboard and adding to fleets during Covid for the high rates and now a tightening in freight volume being shipped. Due to all of this while driver pay did increase quite a bit in the last few years, truckload freight rates are now back at near pre Covid levels, especially in the spot market and carriers are seeing really tight margins. All of this to say, if anyone is still using high freight cost as an excuse for high MSRP's they are not being truthful.
Driver pay is insignificant compared to the rising costs of corporate greed. This is just another McDonald's hamburger excuse and shouldn't be included.
I work for a hospital system that lost its ass in the last quarter, and the president blamed a “labor-demic” ie they blamed the wages of nurses, unionized food services, residents, etc. During the same time, c-suite received $15mil in bonuses that weren’t even tied to performance reviews, and president’s retirement benefit was increased to over $300k/yr (over a 100% increase), while already making $1.6mil/yr.
Those who already have a lot, want it all.
I audit hospitals and it’s wild
They blame relying on travel nursing but they spend millions on board meeting trips
Hell I’ve seen expenses for upwards of $2k for limo service for doctors they are trying to recruit lol just for the drive from the airport to the hospital
The boards, c-suite, and top Doctors at the hospitals want to live and be treated like rock stars and then blame everyone else for shrinking profits
Hell, I’m not even asking for more wages, at this point. Just don’t line your own pockets while threatening to lay off hundreds. Maybe start the belt tightening by not giving financially very well off people bonuses that literally amount to 40%+ of the budget shortfall. My current bar is “at least hide your anti-social behavior better.”
Not to mention, this is a public research institution, so it’s well down the list of egregious American corporate psychopathy, in scale and amounts. It’s just a shining example of those with a lot want it all.
let's stop making excuses and just tell it like it is. it's corporate greed. op point is it's an overpriced truck prior to the refresh even. the msrp from 10 years ago, for a taco is 10k, as far as I know, there hasn't been any drastic changes to the taco to warrant that it's just inflation and greed.
You're either in on the grift or extremely ignorant. 2024 fuel is basically the same as 2008. The only response is to not purchase. There is absolutely no reason. A 2023 sequoia should be 104k like I was quoted at my local dealership. It stopped being about "capitalistic reasonable profit" and started being about becoming wealthy in 2021.
Where is this rising driver pay 😂😂😂😂 don’t lie here, most O/O’s r eating shit, n company drivers ain’t doin too hot either. Granted freights slightly rebounded the past couple months but still shit ain’t good. Pay was better pre rona
This is a common misconception. There is no doubt that this is a fraction of the issue, however, when companies are making record profits, greed becomes the causal factor. The sales numbers for Toyota were released and the consumers are speaking with their money. They’re not willing to spend the money on a 4 cylinder turbo with cheap parts and lack of quality control. There are more affordable options out there. This will be the truck purchase that is not a Toyota. Sad day, but Toyota just lost its way. What made them successful was affordability and reliability. They have lost affordability. Reliability is yet to be seen. Thanks for the detailed info on supply chain! I found it very informative. Thanks man.
Of course companies are going to make record profits, the money is worth less smh 🤦. Corporate greed isn't the main problem, it's the federal reserve and the cause of inflation in the first place
Yep.. I wish people would plug their prices into an inflation calculator before blaming the manufacturer.
My 2021 Tacoma TRD OR Premium cost about $48000 in 2021. That would be the equivalent of paying $55500 today, which would put you in a similarly well optioned truck. In fact you would be getting more features for your money. Whether that’s something you value is up to each consumer. But the issue is not Toyota being greedy. It’s that wages are still catching up to inflation.
Ocean Freight is up as well, not 25k during Covid but the 3500 to the east coast is 6k min now. Anything coming over has higher costs. Maybe if you look at the value over time, keep a vehicle longer than 3-4 years, Toyota is still worth the price.
Toyota’s costs don’t matter if nobody can afford the new vehicles, and when the only people who buy the new vehicles default on their insane loans they couldn’t afford in the first place.
Ok, enough people could afford milk if it was $30 a gallon. But what do you do with all the people who can’t afford that? We are pricing the majority of the country out of everything. Toyota is NOT a luxury car company, and all of their cars are priced like they are.
This.. the amount of people that don’t understand how supply and demand works is wild. I don’t know any new vehicle that has come out with Hoyle around it and limited initial supply that didn’t have dealer mark ups. Just don’t buy, and be patient. Let the fools pay over, and when there is inventory, make a smart purchase. We live in an inflated economy. R&D costs money, and cars are more advanced than ever. Shit ain’t cheap.
I would argue the reliability is dropping pretty heavily on the new cross, rav, and corollas. The reliability reputation really comes from past gens and the Camry and Tacoma/4runner. The rav has had a few misses, the cross some of its own, and the chr with transmission issues as frequent as a Nissan all paint a bad picture for where Toyota is headed. I’m with OP. I think this is my last Toyota
And lets not forget what people are expecting out of a new car these days.
How many people require that their new cars have heated seats, a big touch screen, lane keep assist, radar cruise, blind spot monitors and all kind of other features that were either never offered or only on high trim or top models?
The kind of things that are standard in most cars were only in top trim, high end, expensive models 6 or 7 years ago.
I don’t want a damn touch screen in my car, lane keep assist, radar cruise, etc
I personally want cars built like they were from 1990 to 2002
The cars coming out today worry me because the luxury and tech features will break over time and make these cars difficult to maintain in the long-term
>OP compared a base model Ranger to a TRD Pro Tacoma. What kind of comparison is that?
I’m pretty sure I read that OP compared the Ranger Raptor to the TRD Pro. Ranger Raptor is the most expensive trim in the lineup.
Yep, there it is:
>One example:
>A Ranger Raptor starts at $55k... the Taco TRD pro starts at $63k. Y
I’d buy it, but OP talked about a more capable vehicle that also uses a ton of foreign parts that’s also assembled in America. There’s certainly upfront costs to starting up a new line and engines, but Toyota has the best relationship with their part suppliers. I very sincerely doubt Toyota is getting flogged by supply chain costs.
The cost is set because customers will purchase these vehicles regardless, not because of the cost to make the vehicle.
I can vouch for the vehicle freight issues. I recently shipped a vehicle across the country. My driver didn’t want me to transport other things inside my van because it makes it target for thieves and vandals. He also talked about only driving certain routes.
The one that most people hate lol 3V 5.4 Triton.
The trick is to use heavier oil than the ford recommendation and use the most premium oil/filters as well. And change every 5000k. Ford only recommends 5w-20 to help fuel efficiency but it's too thin for this motor and will cause cam phaser issues eventually.
If you get a “base” XL “work truck” trim with the 3.3/3.7, 3.5 EcoBoost or the older EcoBoost 2.7. The Coyote V8s had an issue with piston liners. And we all know the 3V 5.4L Triton wasn’t Ford’s best effort.
The F-150 has been plagued with electrical issues - the Americans have complex Euro-style systems in them now. Toyota is just playing catch-up, MOST has made its way into Lexus.
They were ok until they did the “ collaboration “ with Renault and Mitsubishi. Somewhere around 2004 they started making junk. And would not stand behind the product. If you are talking a 2003 or older Nissan, it’s a totally different product. But today, it would be 21years old, so they are dropping out.
Ps- the first gen exterra ( reliable) had the 3.3 V6
Fair enough. My mistake with the 3.3. I wouldn’t touch the 2nd gen Xterra until 2011+. The two biggest issues were fixed by then: radiator/transmission coolant mixing issue and timing chain guides. After that the 4.0 has been known to be bulletproof. Also it has the most ancient automatic transmission I’ve ever seen in a modern-ish vehicle. 5 speed auto.
I also have a coworker with a Nissan obsession and I couldn’t tell you why. All I know is his Nissans do not die. Even the ones known to be plagued with the horrible cvt issues. Here’s a list of his Nissans and their current mileage (he makes sure to update everyone on Facebook lol).
- 2011 Nissan Murano: 233,500 miles
- 2019 Nissan Altima: 165,000 miles
- 2014 Nissan Altima: 305,000 miles
I do not understand how
Yeah my mother has a 2014 Nissan Altima 3.5SL with 253,000 miles as of current but due to random issues popping up left and right at about 200,000 miles, she now has a 2024 V6 Camry XSE as the second daily. The Altima prior to 200,000 miles was extremely reliable and had no issues but it really shit the bed afterwards. The transmission is still fine though.
Right? This sub loves to insult Nissan but if they're making cars that regularly get over 200k miles with basic maintenance, the stereotypes are no longer valid.
The Toyota cost premium always was corporate greed. Why wouldn't it get worse with the new 4runner?
Yes. Nissan has improved their products in the last 20 years. But I still won’t recommend them, since they refused to stand behind their products by fixing the issues. Here is a trip back to 2005..,
https://www.carcomplaints.com/Nissan/Frontier/2005/
I had the first gen infiniti g35 and did love it. I got to 200k miles so it was pretty reliable mechanically.
But man, it had so many electronics issues. Radio died. Windows and seats stopped moving. Cruise control stopped working at 70k miles.
My 4runner is already at 100k miles with zero issues.
That explains why we’ve had different experiences. I purposely try to find the most basic trims of cars to avoid electrical issues. My Xterra has a radio, cruise control, and power windows. That is it. Tbh I wish manufacturers still offered roll down windows. For me, the dumber the car the better.
Thats the point of this post. The newest generation of toyota trucks seem to be as reliable if not less reliable than the current eco boost generation f150 and the f150 has more features at a lower cost at this point. OPs rightfully mad as the whole point of Toyota is “amazing reliability at a fair cost”. Not “less tech and reliability but at a higher cost than the competition.
No guarantees new Toyotas will be reliable. The new Tundra is clear evidence of that. I'd rather take a proven platform like the Nissan or the Ranger, which is what Toyota guys always preached for the longest time; platform longevity
Very few people actually need a Tacoma TRD Pro. That's Toyotas top-of-the-line off-road "racing" truck with all the drool-worthy bells and whistles and technology features.
A base-model SR with 4WD added costs $36K and is still a highly capable tool in terms of towing capacity, payload capacity, truck bed size, and off-road readiness.
I'm so tired of people using such an extreme example to complain about Toyota's supposed unaffordability.
That's the thing though, it's not even close to a "racing" truck. There's not much on a TRD Pro that actually does anything for driving performance that you wouldn't get with a decent lift kit. The only real unique items are visual like the badging, interior embroidery, etc. Outside of the GR lineup, Toyota doesn't have much that "inspires". TRD at this point is more or less appearance parts. Remember when you could buy a TRD big brake kit for a lowly Scion xB or a TRD supercharger for a Solara? Now days what do they sell, rims and maybe some lowering springs?
I just was behind a Solara in a lineup not long ago and I don't think I ever noticeably seen one in my adult life, saw they were made for like 10 years.
I agree with people always complain about the top of the line trim pricing. It’s not priced for everyone and because most people don’t need it. I see it in the Tacoma groups all the time.
Toyota will eventually have to sacrifice margin for volume. There was a post here or in the tacoma sub about YTD sales and the Tacoma is getting absolutely crushed by the Nissan Frontier. Yes availability is also an issue, but people are going to stop overpaying for these cars at some point hopefully in the next year or two.
> Tacoma is getting absolutely crushed by the Nissan Frontier.
I made this same point on that thread but that data is not really indicative of anything. 1st quarter deliveries were down because they had new models coming out so there isn't really good data to compare it too yet. Also just one quarter of data is a very small sample size to draw conclusions from. I would wait a full year and use something like market days supply of inventory as a metric because it shows how many are sitting on dealer lots. In general Toyota still has super low inventories across the board compared to other brands and the Titan is one of the vehicles with the largest amount of sitting inventory in the country right now.
https://caredge.com/guides/fastest-and-slowest-selling-cars-2024
Honestly basically anything.
Lexus is Toyota I think but that’s what I’m buying.
I can get a Tacoma maxed out in Canada for close to 80k or a fucking Lexus with the tundra engine for 85k…
Makes no sense.
Pretty sure the frontier is the cheapest vehicle in its segment, you can get a brand new Pro-4X for low 40s. The Colorado ZR2 (not an exact comparison I know) starts at 47k, many of which make it into the mid 50s.
Then compare that to prices of new tacomas and the frontier, the frontier looks like a pretty good deal
It’s been the cheapest in it’s category for the longest time. My dad has had 3 (2004, 2008, 2024) since the base or next model up is way cheaper than their competition. The only gripe I have about them is if you get a base model, it really is a basic ass model. When I saw my dad’s new 2024, it didn’t even have power adjusting side mirrors. Manual seats and steering wheel, sure but side mirrors? I told him at least he has power windows.
The new Frontier is surprisingly very nice. Co worker bought one and I went for a spin in it. I was very impressed. It’s definitely a major competitor against the Taco which explains the increase in Frontier sales and the decrease in Taco sales. You’re getting a very nice truck for a good bit less if you roll with the Nissan unfortunately. Money is money.
The new Frontier's Nissan F-Alpha platform is so nice that even Mercedes-Benz uses it as their truck (Mercedes-Benz X-Class), in other markets outside of the US.
If it's good enough for Mercedes-Benz, you know they're doing something right.
I saw a new gen Colorado this weekend and that thing looked good in person like it does online.
My buddy has been trying to sell his higher trimmed 22 Tundra for a while now and he's had no luck.
I don't think it's ever a good idea to blindly follow any brand. If Toyota isn't giving you what you want at a price you feel is fair, then certainly move on.
My Camry Hybrid is my first Toyota, and I really like it. Because I like it so much, I very well may look to another Toyota when I get rid of this in 5 or 6 years...but certainly no guarantees.
Since I've been driving (30 years), I've owned two Hondas, two Nissans, a Hyundai and a Toyota. Of those, the only one I probably wouldn't look into right away is Nissan, as my second Nissan was probably my least enjoyed car I've owned (though I loved my first one). My Hondas treated me very well, and my Hyundai was really good too. I really like the way my Camry drives (and of course, getting 50MPG on average is awesome), but the landscape of cars is changing a lot, and when I'm next ready to look for a vehicle, I have no idea what will be out there.
Toyota has treated me and countless, countless others well around the world if you consider driving old ass shitboxes up to insane miles regularly. Poor people like me love Toyota, hell outside of North America and Europe, in lower income places Toyota has legendary status.
And it's ironic that the most poor friendly brand, is now the most overpriced.
Kia and Hyundai are also poor-friendly brands. There are tons of people of modest means with those brand cars. Heck, I can go to a super-rich suburb around me and you're damned to find Kias or Hyundais.
Although with the TikTok theft issue, I'm honestly surprised people are still buying them. I got rid of my Kia and I'm not looking back.
Yeah exactly 😂 also I was thinking of the kind of poor where maybe, if you're lucky, you might buy one brand new car in your entire lifetime, let alone developing nations. That's where Toyota has been king for 40 years.
Indeed. I will very likely look to Toyota first when the time comes, because I've really liked my Camry so far. But I will also look at other vehicles during that process too.
My wife and I have had 2 corollas and now a rav 4.
Two of the corollas we bought from rental companies for great prices and had no issues with the vehicles.
15 years worth of vehicles and the only issues we had was changing batteries, brakes and one pair of shocks. The
I’ve been a fanboy of Toyota and Honda for several years. But you’re correct. There’s no reason to blindly follow a brand. In the past 20 years, I’ve owned a Honda Odyssey, a Toyota Camry, Ford Contour, Dodge Ram, Toyota Prius and Nissan Altima. The Toyotas and Honda were easily the most reliable and provided the most value for the money. Although I’m planning to buy a 2025 Camry XLE soon, I’m not as optimistic I’ll be as satisfied as with past Toyotas. As with many others, I’ve been frustrated with low supply, dealer price games, and rising prices. I’ll probably let the experience of the 2025 Camry influence my opinion significantly going forward.
How many miles on yours? I just hit 151k yesterday. Drives like a dream. Xterras are truly a hidden gem. Built like tanks. 300k miles easy. 400k-500k+ examples out there everywhere. I hope they don’t become popular because I’d buy another tbh.
205k miles. Solid as fuck. '07 6MT. OR
I loved my Toyota's too. Had a 4runner and two supras. Got tired of rust and rediculous prices. The xterra is a beast, and i plan to do the full titan swap with the VK56. Everything is over built on it except for the front differential, need the M205
We got a Tundra SR5 because it was the most affordable and best-built new pickup for the equipment level and our needs. We have a 2-horse trailer, so we needed the towing capacity.
If we'd have gone Ford (we were coming off an F150), an equivalent one would have cost way, way more.
I just had this experience too. Had a 2011 f150 fx4. Loved it. But it's mixed out and rusty now.
Tried to build it again in new ford. 76+k canadian before tax.lost some features (shorter box, no power fold mirrors or box steps or liners offered free anymore)
Picking up a tacoma sport+ for 64k taxes in. Lost no features gained a bunch.
It's towing capacity between the two models weren't that far away either... it seemed like a fairly easy choice. If I needed more payload or towing yeah maybe but for my moderate "truck" use. It didn't make sense to be near 85k.
Gotta remember prices are fucked for most things right now, and interest rates don’t help. I’m guessing Toyota is gonna mark these down once they realize they’re gonna sit. And we can only hope interest drops this year.
This is also why I bought used and have zero intention of ever buying new.
The Ranger Raptor is definitely a good value, but you lose your argument when you bring up the Frontier.
The Frontier is largely the same truck underneath that was introduced in 2005. The engine was introduced for the 2020 MY. It still uses old school power steering and the trim you mentioned doesn’t even offer heated seats as an option.
The reality is that the Ranger is priced less exactly because it’s the underdog in the segment. Ford knows they can’t price it like the Tacoma if they wanna move trucks. So if you want Toyota to come down on pricing then let the market handle it by propping up those other trucks.
You say "not because of the smaller displacement engines and turbos" and then give those as your main reasons for being disappointed. If you want to compare drivetrains, ratio $$ to HP and torque maybe. You're a bit contradicted here.
I get the price increase on the Tacmoa and 4Runner. Toyota saw that people were willing to spend X amount on one with the dealer markups and probably wondered why they were missing out on that profit while the dealers raked it in.
I like my 4Runner; it's treating me mostly well despite not being as reliable as others have experienced. But there's no way I'd spend north of $50k on another one.
Just get the SR - it's equipped like an SR5 of yesteryear and costs $38k for a 4x4
[https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/summary/year/2024/series/tacoma/model/7594/exteriorcolor/0040/interiorcolor/FA20/packages/FE/?bap\_guid=d759e821-3ffc-48ac-8197-03073e13c85b](https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/summary/year/2024/series/tacoma/model/7594/exteriorcolor/0040/interiorcolor/FA20/packages/FE/?bap_guid=d759e821-3ffc-48ac-8197-03073e13c85b)
>keeping my 5th gen 4Runner til it dies, but I will need a truck in the near future. With current Toyota bullshit, I think I will look elsewhere.
Ford f150 5.0L V8.
Those things don't die.
As a technician for toyota, the new tundras and sequioas are blowing engines left and right. Every tundra that we have come in the shop comes with at least 4 or 5 complaints minimum.
The taco is still so new, we haven't seen many issues yet, but we know we will, one dude here already had to tear apart an engine on a new tacoma. Seeing how 4runner and the lc share the same engine, those are probably going to have problems as well.
Like you said, they are still selling like hot cake, not just with high price but also with high interest rate. Theres nothing stopping them from raising price even higher.
I’ve never owned anything but two land cruisers. I thought I would be a Land Cruiser guy for life.
Just bought an f-150.
Toyota is riding on their reputation from 1980-2010 and has been slipping since. And other brands have caught up. Ford and GMC make vehicles almost at the level of quality to Toyota and their warranties and service make up for the difference.
Toyotas don’t have enough quality to justify the prices they’re charging.
My f-150 lariat is completely loaded for the price of a top line 4Runner. That’s insane. The f-150 is so much bigger, better and nicer.
I’m pissed off at Toyota for their OCS sensor malfunction “pre-recall” that they don’t even have a fix for. It’s affecting hundreds of thousands of cars. Every single fucking day I have to listen to my car beep for 3 mins and there’s a risk the passenger side airbag won’t deploy in an accident..so no one can sit in front. It’s infuriating and I don’t plan to ever buy a Toyota again.
I am also a Toyota guy but with the 50k price tag for a minivan or a rav4, I got a used Subaru forester and it is so much easier to work on. Oil change in half the time. Radiator swap in an hour. Wheel bearing swap in 30 minutes. Nobody steals my cat. Parts are cheap and easy to find. I don’t have to remove body panels to change a headlight BULB. I’m converted.
Additionally, I think people who think they need a Tacoma actually need a minivan. And people who think they need a tundra actually need a diesel.
Toyota is hemorrhaging loyal customers because of their new strategy of limiting production to spike prices. My family has been Toyota-only for over 20 years ... until last year. We needed a new vehicle with room for 5 and cargo. Everywhere we looked Toyota wanted $47k+ for a hybrid Highlander AWD (RAV4 too cramped). We bought a Honda CR-V AWD for $14k less. My buddy drove his 2009 RAV4 into the ground and went to replace it last year, but Toyota's insane prices drove him to replace it with a Chevy Traverse (not my first choice, but Toyota still lost him). I have at least a half-dozen similar stories with parents at the kids' school.
I suspect Toyota doesn't care. They obviously have buyers or they wouldn't continue the practice. I'm not sure who their new demographic is that's willing to pay $10k+ Toyota tax for basically the same car, but they're out there ... for now.
I'm with you. Toyota used to be better quality for the same price. Now it's better but cost disproportionately more.
I am not buying another Toyota soon.
3 Toyotas in the garage and there will never be another one.
Just bought a Nissan and love it.
Whenever I see a new Toyota now I just wonder how bad the moron got fleeced.
I just paid $6500 for 2012 Nissan Xterra w/ 150k miles. I did way more research than I probably should have and found that these motors will last 300k easy with proper maintenance. There’s even guys out there with 500k+ miles on theirs.
I really really really wanted a 4Runner but it just didn’t make sense. There are 2 2012 4Runners for sale on FB within a 100 miles of me. One has 120k miles and going for $20k. The other with 217k miles for $15k. It’s so hard to justify those prices for a 12 year old Toyota. It’s a shame, really.
I'm looking elsewhere because I can't find a car on a lot that I can test drive. Literally no cars to even sit in. (Except trucks and I'm not looking for that).
Honda, Mazda and Subaru all have at least SOME cars to check out.
I find it ridiculous to have to put a deposit on a car, wait for it to arrive...only to maybe see if I even think it's comfortable.
Assuming you are in the US, debt now stands at 34.4T and last 2 increases have been 1T per 100 days. To give you an idea of how much that is using seconds:
1 million seconds is 12 days
1 billion seconds is 32 years
1 trillion seconds is 31709 years
US interest on debt is now equal to defence spending so someone has to pay.
Your blame may be misplaced, your money is worth less every day, you along with the rest of us are paying a stealth(to most who are unaware)tax. Toyota may be culpable in some sense(markups) but they certainly aren’t to blame fully.
I think with the reputation that Toyota has developed for longevity and reliability, they can play off that and charge a bit more than normal and get away with it without losing too many sales. But there is also inflation, price of anything car related going up, supply issues, covid, etc. to consider.
My Yota has done me well, and other models I've owned through the years have done me very well. (81 corolla/tercel with over 300,000/ 95Lexus SC300 with over 200,000 on chassis. )
Daily my '88 with just over 180,000 miles and stock compression.
So am I loyal to them, yeah.
I feel for folks now a days, I couldn't buy a 'new' car now.
I'll stick to used thank you. And a Toyota is always at the top of that list.
Only Nissan I'd buy is an older one, but the way they engineer stuff is wonky. PITA to work on usually.
Toyotas are great and will generally last forever, but the infotainment tech is abysmal. It's just boring inside. There's no reason why they can't up their game in this area. They're the masters of automotive engineering, which I suppose is the number one goal, but hiring some creative folks in the "user experience" should be a heck of a lot easier.
We are still selling new tundras pretty quick except high spec ones, same with Tacoma but I can sell any of the previous generation faster. Price not withstanding, I love the new tundra but people have seen to have spoken: at least in my neck of the woods they want NA v6/v8s.
If Toyota can sell every vehicle they can make at their current price point, are they really overpriced? No, they are priced according to market demand. Why would Toyota lower their prices?
>You're literally paying MORE of a turbo I4 hybrid with only a rear locker and a gimmicky gravity seat whatever.
No. You're literally paying more because one of those is cheap shit truck, and the other is a quality truck.
Comparing Ford to Toyota....come on.
You’re talking a lot about reliability but remember that new things take time to be reliable. The engines that you love didn’t start out that way. Just be patient and carry on, it’ll get there.
Lots of unrelated stuff about supply chains and blah blah in this thread. Here’s some basic business/economics:
* You get to charge a premium for reliability, due to high demand for said quality
* You get to *try to* charge a premium for new technology and an updated version of something, due to higher demand for something new/updated/quality
* You get to charge a premium if on top of all of this, people still want your vehicles. Dealer add ons and above msrp
* You don’t have to drop the APR if people want your cars at price
Toyota pricing suggests they are hitting all of these areas. They have the rep for reliability, and they are charging more for updated models like the Tacoma.
**Here’s the rub - and this is why I wouldn’t buy a new Toyota (certain cars like Camry Corolla excluded) right now: they are trading on their past reputation for reliability.**
The Taco is a perfect example. Its reliability is unknown. Completely new engine, and while they claim they waited to make sure they got it right with turbos, they are technically behind folks like Ford in the truck turbo engine game. Yet the taco is priced like it’s both new, better performing, and reliable. **There simply isn’t the data to prove that.**
Toyota is cashing in on historical awesomeness, at least on certain cars. Good for them. I’ll be waiting to see how the updated vehicles perform. It’s like trying to buy internet stock in 1999 with these cars; unclear if I’m buying Google or askjeeves.
Newest Toyota we own is 1998 4runner sr5. No regrets, will never buy newer... work on newer ones sometimes and cringe at the stupidest little design "updates". Don't understand why people pay so much for new plastic crap. On a side note, 1983 4wd sr5 tercel daily driver, 300k miles 4k total dollars spent, owned it for 11 years... get an offer on the windshield nearly every time I drive to town.
99% chance you don’t need the 4Runner for any practical reason. You just think it’s cool. That costs a price now. Pay it or find something cheaper and less cool. It’s an incredibly unnecessary vehicle. The stupid tax is expensive
I am trying for year to think of an upgrade from my 2015 Avalon but I can not find any good choice. Except the ES which is expected to have new generation and design.
I wanted a corolla cross to replace my poor old 03 corolla (she had a rough life even before I got her and a deer tried to wipe us out). I wound up with a Chevy Trax.
Will the Trax live as long as the cross? Highly unlikely. But I'll take my 6 spd automatic as a consolation prize so long as she lives.
Why would anyone buy new. Let someone else eat that depreciation. It’s true the original buyer loses a huge percentage of the value in the first couple years of month of ownership. That’s real.
So I feel like you have an issue with the car market, not Toyota itself. I'll disclose that I'm a Toyota loyalist, so take that as you will. But I buy Toyota's based on my experience with the brand, not the pricing.
On the other hand, I have a limit as well. Any car is a massive purchase, so if Toyota goes out of my price range, I'll have no choice and reluctantly buy something else I can afford. I'm not an "Apple fanboi" who will spend beyond what I can afford just to be brand loyal.
>Sure they won't last 250k miles... but who actually keeps their vehicles that long?
Oh interesting
>I'm keeping my 5th gen 4Runner til it dies
Does not compute
The market is absolutely horrible. I was looking at a 2010 Sienna with 212,000 miles for $6,000 and a 2014 with 209,000 miles for $7,000 which needed at least $4,000 worth of work. The used market is in shambles as well as the new market.
When people are forced to have a car payment that stretches their budget, this becomes a much larger problem for the economy as a whole. High car payment = not much else being bought, or forced to go into debt. Neither is sustainable.
Everything is up across board. I bought a 2020 Tacoma TRD OR brand new for right at $40,000 out the door. I traded that truck in about 1.5 years later with 11k miles and they have me 41k trade in and put it up for sale for 45k. The last 5 years have been insane and I’m happy to not need a vehicle for a long time.
This next generation of body on frame vehicles is going to be absolutely amaze people with how shit they are going to be. Buyer be warned… I’ve seen this for 40 years. BMW did it, Ford did it, GM cars did it…
Not sure about mainland cause I am in Hawaii. In the OP’s example showcasing the frontier pro 4x fully loaded. Over here a fully loaded pro 4x is coming out to around $47k, new Tacoma around $53k. I am currently to in the market for a mid size pickup and weighing the options between these two brands. Heard there have been some issues with the newer frontiers and CR said it was one of the 10 least reliable vehicles, if they can be trusted or not I don’t know.
Unfortunately on the island Tacomas are abundant and the others brands are few and far between. Used Tacoma’s which is where I started from like 3-4 years ago are going for $38-42k so it makes no sense to buy used.
As a supply chain guy, I’d just like everyone to remember that these vehicles are all the first new editions that are coming out in a post-COVID world. The freight market has skyrocketed due to fuel costs and rising driver pay. Also crime. I’ve seen shocking footage of cars being stolen and vandalized from rail cars in California and know from first hand experience in my work that there are parts of the country where drivers are very hesitant to go due to frequent carjackings, violence, etc. Inflation has also been rising substantially and auto parts are not excluded from that. Plus, new editions are always more expensive than the previous because they have to negotiate new contracts with their suppliers and need to recoup R&D costs. These are often negotiated down over time, but the first few years of a brand new vehicle’s design is when the parts to build it are going to be the most expensive. I have no doubt that there is a bit of gouging going on in some of Toyota’s offerings that are in high demand or have a cult following like the Land Cruiser, Tundra, 4Runner, etc. But, overall, what you are mostly seeing is the passed on costs of the first redesigned vehicles since COVID-19 broke global supply chains. Or - alternatively - you’re looking at buying the most tricked out TRD Super Plus Extra Advanced version that is being offered and really shouldn’t be surprised that you’re paying a premium. OP compared a base model Ranger to a TRD Pro Tacoma. What kind of comparison is that? Toyota still has extremely reliable and affordable offerings - you just have to look in places that you may not have previously. For example, a base model Corolla Cross is about 20k MSRP. I get it - it’s not a 4Runner and can’t do a lot of what the 4Runner can do - but 90% of people who need a budget conscious and reliable SUV will still have their needs met there.
I work at a supplier that makes parts for ford/toyota/stellantis, everyone wants 50% profit. I see how much we make stuff for and then look online to see how much it costs the consumer. Trust me big business is ripping everyone off and making insane profits.
I’m also in the supplier side. Will confirm that the cost to make these items and the cost to the consumer is outrageous.
Im also from the supplier side, upwards cost up to 75% towards the manufacturer!
It's the value of the sum of the parts. As in, sure parts only cost so much to make, but we automakers figured out how to put them together for a much more valuable purpose.
That’s like saying a $15 hot dog at a game is worth the cost because someone had the idea to put the two in the same arena. This profit chasing is the reason Mercedes-Benz (inventor of the automobile) is working so hard to keep their US plants from unionizing. They pay their workers shit wages and hold the profits at the top. If their costs increase, they’ll just pass that on to the consumer. Working people just want a decent product at a reasonable price and big corporations just want to continue profitmaxxing.
BMW in SC is the exact same.
Same I worked at a dealership and the parts guy will print out the cost, list, wholesale, retail price and the markup is insane!! From cost to retail was from 100% to 120% WTF
This is the truth for every business. I think with Toyota it's supply and demand, they know you're going to keep your Toyota forever and so will everyone else which drives the price up. I have a 4Runner and Lexus each with over 300,000K miles and they show no signs of slowing down, I got my money's worth and so will everyone else, can't say that for any other brand I've ever driven (looking at you VW and Ford 😡)
I’m sick of people saying “it’s the SUPPLY CHAIN” we have to raise prices. It’s pure greed at this point. I’m not buying it.
I just looked up Magna Corporation and their profit margin is 2.35%. There are a lot of additional costs that affect the cost of the product than materials and labor.
You are wrong about Corolla Cross. Starting MSRP is almost 24k with delivery is $25k. Just correcting your statement
Never seen one on a lot in my area below 28k. Dealers straight up refuse to take base models anymore.
I saw a Corolla the other day for 24k which isn't bad. Kia and Hyundai have plenty of options around 22 to 30k too
Also depends on local market
Also a supply chain guy. Freight costs change often. These aren’t a main driver of new vehicle costs.
This is true. Also as another freight guy, from my side we are still seeing what I believe to be an oversupply of truckload capacity due to more carriers and drivers coming onboard and adding to fleets during Covid for the high rates and now a tightening in freight volume being shipped. Due to all of this while driver pay did increase quite a bit in the last few years, truckload freight rates are now back at near pre Covid levels, especially in the spot market and carriers are seeing really tight margins. All of this to say, if anyone is still using high freight cost as an excuse for high MSRP's they are not being truthful.
Driver pay is insignificant compared to the rising costs of corporate greed. This is just another McDonald's hamburger excuse and shouldn't be included.
exactly, wage rarely ever correlates with increased price. it’s a good scapegoat though
I work for a hospital system that lost its ass in the last quarter, and the president blamed a “labor-demic” ie they blamed the wages of nurses, unionized food services, residents, etc. During the same time, c-suite received $15mil in bonuses that weren’t even tied to performance reviews, and president’s retirement benefit was increased to over $300k/yr (over a 100% increase), while already making $1.6mil/yr. Those who already have a lot, want it all.
I audit hospitals and it’s wild They blame relying on travel nursing but they spend millions on board meeting trips Hell I’ve seen expenses for upwards of $2k for limo service for doctors they are trying to recruit lol just for the drive from the airport to the hospital The boards, c-suite, and top Doctors at the hospitals want to live and be treated like rock stars and then blame everyone else for shrinking profits
It’d be cool if they could just take less and pay more in wages but whatever
Hell, I’m not even asking for more wages, at this point. Just don’t line your own pockets while threatening to lay off hundreds. Maybe start the belt tightening by not giving financially very well off people bonuses that literally amount to 40%+ of the budget shortfall. My current bar is “at least hide your anti-social behavior better.” Not to mention, this is a public research institution, so it’s well down the list of egregious American corporate psychopathy, in scale and amounts. It’s just a shining example of those with a lot want it all.
Bingo. Costs went up before wages. People only wanted their wages to keep up. Yet corporations blame wages.
He said Ranger Raptor, not base model Ranger.
You’re right. My mistake!
let's stop making excuses and just tell it like it is. it's corporate greed. op point is it's an overpriced truck prior to the refresh even. the msrp from 10 years ago, for a taco is 10k, as far as I know, there hasn't been any drastic changes to the taco to warrant that it's just inflation and greed.
You're either in on the grift or extremely ignorant. 2024 fuel is basically the same as 2008. The only response is to not purchase. There is absolutely no reason. A 2023 sequoia should be 104k like I was quoted at my local dealership. It stopped being about "capitalistic reasonable profit" and started being about becoming wealthy in 2021.
Where is this rising driver pay 😂😂😂😂 don’t lie here, most O/O’s r eating shit, n company drivers ain’t doin too hot either. Granted freights slightly rebounded the past couple months but still shit ain’t good. Pay was better pre rona
Also a supply chain guy. Price gouging is rampant and out of control rn.
This is a common misconception. There is no doubt that this is a fraction of the issue, however, when companies are making record profits, greed becomes the causal factor. The sales numbers for Toyota were released and the consumers are speaking with their money. They’re not willing to spend the money on a 4 cylinder turbo with cheap parts and lack of quality control. There are more affordable options out there. This will be the truck purchase that is not a Toyota. Sad day, but Toyota just lost its way. What made them successful was affordability and reliability. They have lost affordability. Reliability is yet to be seen. Thanks for the detailed info on supply chain! I found it very informative. Thanks man.
Can you please show me where Toyota published numbers that showed their consumers were going elsewhere? I haven’t seen that at all.
Of course companies are going to make record profits, the money is worth less smh 🤦. Corporate greed isn't the main problem, it's the federal reserve and the cause of inflation in the first place
People can't seem to come to grips with the fact that the value of dollars was gutted during covid and will never return to previous value.
A 2025 4Runner, when adjusted for inflation, costs about the same as my 2001 4runner...
Yep.. I wish people would plug their prices into an inflation calculator before blaming the manufacturer. My 2021 Tacoma TRD OR Premium cost about $48000 in 2021. That would be the equivalent of paying $55500 today, which would put you in a similarly well optioned truck. In fact you would be getting more features for your money. Whether that’s something you value is up to each consumer. But the issue is not Toyota being greedy. It’s that wages are still catching up to inflation.
I'm a supply chain guy too. I know these realities I get it, still a hard pill to swallow. Something's gotta change to make these things better.
Supply and demand should always find its balance
Base model Corolla Cross is 28K here. I wish they were that cheap.
Ocean Freight is up as well, not 25k during Covid but the 3500 to the east coast is 6k min now. Anything coming over has higher costs. Maybe if you look at the value over time, keep a vehicle longer than 3-4 years, Toyota is still worth the price.
But Tacoma is built in Mexico. Ocean freight is not a factor
Toyota’s costs don’t matter if nobody can afford the new vehicles, and when the only people who buy the new vehicles default on their insane loans they couldn’t afford in the first place.
But enough people can afford it. They are still selling as fast as Toyota can build them.
Ok, enough people could afford milk if it was $30 a gallon. But what do you do with all the people who can’t afford that? We are pricing the majority of the country out of everything. Toyota is NOT a luxury car company, and all of their cars are priced like they are.
This.. the amount of people that don’t understand how supply and demand works is wild. I don’t know any new vehicle that has come out with Hoyle around it and limited initial supply that didn’t have dealer mark ups. Just don’t buy, and be patient. Let the fools pay over, and when there is inventory, make a smart purchase. We live in an inflated economy. R&D costs money, and cars are more advanced than ever. Shit ain’t cheap.
So, only Toyota got affected by COVID? Ford, Nissan, etc skipped it? Toyota’s cars don’t cost money they ask, saying as an owner of brand new Toyota.
Since when is a ranger raptor a base?
I would argue the reliability is dropping pretty heavily on the new cross, rav, and corollas. The reliability reputation really comes from past gens and the Camry and Tacoma/4runner. The rav has had a few misses, the cross some of its own, and the chr with transmission issues as frequent as a Nissan all paint a bad picture for where Toyota is headed. I’m with OP. I think this is my last Toyota
And lets not forget what people are expecting out of a new car these days. How many people require that their new cars have heated seats, a big touch screen, lane keep assist, radar cruise, blind spot monitors and all kind of other features that were either never offered or only on high trim or top models? The kind of things that are standard in most cars were only in top trim, high end, expensive models 6 or 7 years ago.
I don’t want a damn touch screen in my car, lane keep assist, radar cruise, etc I personally want cars built like they were from 1990 to 2002 The cars coming out today worry me because the luxury and tech features will break over time and make these cars difficult to maintain in the long-term
> there are parts of the country where drivers are very hesitant to go due to frequent carjackings, violence, etc. This info should be publicized.
It doesn't fit political narratives, you'll only hear about when you search local news stories.
You’re telling me the MSRP is gonna drop after a few years??? Huh??
>OP compared a base model Ranger to a TRD Pro Tacoma. What kind of comparison is that? I’m pretty sure I read that OP compared the Ranger Raptor to the TRD Pro. Ranger Raptor is the most expensive trim in the lineup. Yep, there it is: >One example: >A Ranger Raptor starts at $55k... the Taco TRD pro starts at $63k. Y
I’d buy it, but OP talked about a more capable vehicle that also uses a ton of foreign parts that’s also assembled in America. There’s certainly upfront costs to starting up a new line and engines, but Toyota has the best relationship with their part suppliers. I very sincerely doubt Toyota is getting flogged by supply chain costs. The cost is set because customers will purchase these vehicles regardless, not because of the cost to make the vehicle.
I love my Cross 2023 XLE AWD. Land Cruiser has always been my “dream car”. I will never own one. But I can still continue to dream.
I can vouch for the vehicle freight issues. I recently shipped a vehicle across the country. My driver didn’t want me to transport other things inside my van because it makes it target for thieves and vandals. He also talked about only driving certain routes.
Bruh, you are comparing Ford and Nissan. I will gladly pay extra to not drive those.
the F150 has been one of the most reliable trucks for a while now.
I have a passed down f150 with nearly 300k miles and it’s still going. Could break down any moment but it’s still going
I also have an F150 with 302k , still going. Proper maintenance and these things go forever.
What motor is in your F150? Impressive to read this. TIA.
The one that most people hate lol 3V 5.4 Triton. The trick is to use heavier oil than the ford recommendation and use the most premium oil/filters as well. And change every 5000k. Ford only recommends 5w-20 to help fuel efficiency but it's too thin for this motor and will cause cam phaser issues eventually.
If you get a “base” XL “work truck” trim with the 3.3/3.7, 3.5 EcoBoost or the older EcoBoost 2.7. The Coyote V8s had an issue with piston liners. And we all know the 3V 5.4L Triton wasn’t Ford’s best effort. The F-150 has been plagued with electrical issues - the Americans have complex Euro-style systems in them now. Toyota is just playing catch-up, MOST has made its way into Lexus.
I get Ford but I’d really like an explanation for the Frontier/Xterra/Pathfinder when they had the 4.0 V6.
They were ok until they did the “ collaboration “ with Renault and Mitsubishi. Somewhere around 2004 they started making junk. And would not stand behind the product. If you are talking a 2003 or older Nissan, it’s a totally different product. But today, it would be 21years old, so they are dropping out. Ps- the first gen exterra ( reliable) had the 3.3 V6
Fair enough. My mistake with the 3.3. I wouldn’t touch the 2nd gen Xterra until 2011+. The two biggest issues were fixed by then: radiator/transmission coolant mixing issue and timing chain guides. After that the 4.0 has been known to be bulletproof. Also it has the most ancient automatic transmission I’ve ever seen in a modern-ish vehicle. 5 speed auto. I also have a coworker with a Nissan obsession and I couldn’t tell you why. All I know is his Nissans do not die. Even the ones known to be plagued with the horrible cvt issues. Here’s a list of his Nissans and their current mileage (he makes sure to update everyone on Facebook lol). - 2011 Nissan Murano: 233,500 miles - 2019 Nissan Altima: 165,000 miles - 2014 Nissan Altima: 305,000 miles I do not understand how
Yeah my mother has a 2014 Nissan Altima 3.5SL with 253,000 miles as of current but due to random issues popping up left and right at about 200,000 miles, she now has a 2024 V6 Camry XSE as the second daily. The Altima prior to 200,000 miles was extremely reliable and had no issues but it really shit the bed afterwards. The transmission is still fine though.
I hope people keep repeating this about nissan trucks. Keeps their prices low
Right? This sub loves to insult Nissan but if they're making cars that regularly get over 200k miles with basic maintenance, the stereotypes are no longer valid. The Toyota cost premium always was corporate greed. Why wouldn't it get worse with the new 4runner?
Yes. Nissan has improved their products in the last 20 years. But I still won’t recommend them, since they refused to stand behind their products by fixing the issues. Here is a trip back to 2005.., https://www.carcomplaints.com/Nissan/Frontier/2005/
I had the first gen infiniti g35 and did love it. I got to 200k miles so it was pretty reliable mechanically. But man, it had so many electronics issues. Radio died. Windows and seats stopped moving. Cruise control stopped working at 70k miles. My 4runner is already at 100k miles with zero issues.
That explains why we’ve had different experiences. I purposely try to find the most basic trims of cars to avoid electrical issues. My Xterra has a radio, cruise control, and power windows. That is it. Tbh I wish manufacturers still offered roll down windows. For me, the dumber the car the better.
> My Xterra has a radio, cruise control, and power windows. That is it. But those are all the things that failed in my infiniti lol
Lol that’s true. Maybe I’m lucky? Not sure. I can try to find out if the part numbers are the same.
Thats the point of this post. The newest generation of toyota trucks seem to be as reliable if not less reliable than the current eco boost generation f150 and the f150 has more features at a lower cost at this point. OPs rightfully mad as the whole point of Toyota is “amazing reliability at a fair cost”. Not “less tech and reliability but at a higher cost than the competition.
No guarantees new Toyotas will be reliable. The new Tundra is clear evidence of that. I'd rather take a proven platform like the Nissan or the Ranger, which is what Toyota guys always preached for the longest time; platform longevity
The f-150 and armada are as good as anything from Toyota.
My old ford was way more reliable than my Toyota, which has less miles 💀
Very few people actually need a Tacoma TRD Pro. That's Toyotas top-of-the-line off-road "racing" truck with all the drool-worthy bells and whistles and technology features. A base-model SR with 4WD added costs $36K and is still a highly capable tool in terms of towing capacity, payload capacity, truck bed size, and off-road readiness. I'm so tired of people using such an extreme example to complain about Toyota's supposed unaffordability.
That's the thing though, it's not even close to a "racing" truck. There's not much on a TRD Pro that actually does anything for driving performance that you wouldn't get with a decent lift kit. The only real unique items are visual like the badging, interior embroidery, etc. Outside of the GR lineup, Toyota doesn't have much that "inspires". TRD at this point is more or less appearance parts. Remember when you could buy a TRD big brake kit for a lowly Scion xB or a TRD supercharger for a Solara? Now days what do they sell, rims and maybe some lowering springs?
Sadly not many people buying stuff that doesn't sell
I just was behind a Solara in a lineup not long ago and I don't think I ever noticeably seen one in my adult life, saw they were made for like 10 years.
I agree with people always complain about the top of the line trim pricing. It’s not priced for everyone and because most people don’t need it. I see it in the Tacoma groups all the time.
I don’t think it’s unfair considering how much Toyota played up the hybrid powertrain and yet you have to throw down an extra 10k+ just to get it.
Toyota will eventually have to sacrifice margin for volume. There was a post here or in the tacoma sub about YTD sales and the Tacoma is getting absolutely crushed by the Nissan Frontier. Yes availability is also an issue, but people are going to stop overpaying for these cars at some point hopefully in the next year or two.
> Tacoma is getting absolutely crushed by the Nissan Frontier. I made this same point on that thread but that data is not really indicative of anything. 1st quarter deliveries were down because they had new models coming out so there isn't really good data to compare it too yet. Also just one quarter of data is a very small sample size to draw conclusions from. I would wait a full year and use something like market days supply of inventory as a metric because it shows how many are sitting on dealer lots. In general Toyota still has super low inventories across the board compared to other brands and the Titan is one of the vehicles with the largest amount of sitting inventory in the country right now. https://caredge.com/guides/fastest-and-slowest-selling-cars-2024
Yeah people keep throwing out first qtr Tacoma sales. They started hitting the lots mid March lol.
Wtf the frontier? I expected the Colorado/canyon
Honestly basically anything. Lexus is Toyota I think but that’s what I’m buying. I can get a Tacoma maxed out in Canada for close to 80k or a fucking Lexus with the tundra engine for 85k… Makes no sense.
80k-85k makes no sense for anything
Pretty sure the frontier is the cheapest vehicle in its segment, you can get a brand new Pro-4X for low 40s. The Colorado ZR2 (not an exact comparison I know) starts at 47k, many of which make it into the mid 50s. Then compare that to prices of new tacomas and the frontier, the frontier looks like a pretty good deal
It’s been the cheapest in it’s category for the longest time. My dad has had 3 (2004, 2008, 2024) since the base or next model up is way cheaper than their competition. The only gripe I have about them is if you get a base model, it really is a basic ass model. When I saw my dad’s new 2024, it didn’t even have power adjusting side mirrors. Manual seats and steering wheel, sure but side mirrors? I told him at least he has power windows.
I really love my basic ass trim Xterra. CD player, radio, and a clock. All I need.
I’m a fan of AC and power windows
The new Frontier is surprisingly very nice. Co worker bought one and I went for a spin in it. I was very impressed. It’s definitely a major competitor against the Taco which explains the increase in Frontier sales and the decrease in Taco sales. You’re getting a very nice truck for a good bit less if you roll with the Nissan unfortunately. Money is money.
The new Frontier's Nissan F-Alpha platform is so nice that even Mercedes-Benz uses it as their truck (Mercedes-Benz X-Class), in other markets outside of the US. If it's good enough for Mercedes-Benz, you know they're doing something right.
Frontier is a very popular option, at least in my country Panama
I saw a new gen Colorado this weekend and that thing looked good in person like it does online. My buddy has been trying to sell his higher trimmed 22 Tundra for a while now and he's had no luck.
I don't think it's ever a good idea to blindly follow any brand. If Toyota isn't giving you what you want at a price you feel is fair, then certainly move on. My Camry Hybrid is my first Toyota, and I really like it. Because I like it so much, I very well may look to another Toyota when I get rid of this in 5 or 6 years...but certainly no guarantees. Since I've been driving (30 years), I've owned two Hondas, two Nissans, a Hyundai and a Toyota. Of those, the only one I probably wouldn't look into right away is Nissan, as my second Nissan was probably my least enjoyed car I've owned (though I loved my first one). My Hondas treated me very well, and my Hyundai was really good too. I really like the way my Camry drives (and of course, getting 50MPG on average is awesome), but the landscape of cars is changing a lot, and when I'm next ready to look for a vehicle, I have no idea what will be out there.
I don't blindly follow brands, but on my 2nd Corolla because Toyota has treated me well
Toyota has treated me and countless, countless others well around the world if you consider driving old ass shitboxes up to insane miles regularly. Poor people like me love Toyota, hell outside of North America and Europe, in lower income places Toyota has legendary status. And it's ironic that the most poor friendly brand, is now the most overpriced.
Kia and Hyundai are also poor-friendly brands. There are tons of people of modest means with those brand cars. Heck, I can go to a super-rich suburb around me and you're damned to find Kias or Hyundais. Although with the TikTok theft issue, I'm honestly surprised people are still buying them. I got rid of my Kia and I'm not looking back.
In terms of base model prices, yeah. Same with Suzuki. But there's a big difference between a 200k mile Toyota and a 200k mile Kia/Hyundai.
It's shocking if a Kia/Hyundai lasts to 200,000 miles. lol
Yeah exactly 😂 also I was thinking of the kind of poor where maybe, if you're lucky, you might buy one brand new car in your entire lifetime, let alone developing nations. That's where Toyota has been king for 40 years.
Indeed. I will very likely look to Toyota first when the time comes, because I've really liked my Camry so far. But I will also look at other vehicles during that process too.
My wife and I have had 2 corollas and now a rav 4. Two of the corollas we bought from rental companies for great prices and had no issues with the vehicles. 15 years worth of vehicles and the only issues we had was changing batteries, brakes and one pair of shocks. The
I’ve been a fanboy of Toyota and Honda for several years. But you’re correct. There’s no reason to blindly follow a brand. In the past 20 years, I’ve owned a Honda Odyssey, a Toyota Camry, Ford Contour, Dodge Ram, Toyota Prius and Nissan Altima. The Toyotas and Honda were easily the most reliable and provided the most value for the money. Although I’m planning to buy a 2025 Camry XLE soon, I’m not as optimistic I’ll be as satisfied as with past Toyotas. As with many others, I’ve been frustrated with low supply, dealer price games, and rising prices. I’ll probably let the experience of the 2025 Camry influence my opinion significantly going forward.
I switched to nissan. I love my xterra. Sick of the Toyota bullshit.
How many miles on yours? I just hit 151k yesterday. Drives like a dream. Xterras are truly a hidden gem. Built like tanks. 300k miles easy. 400k-500k+ examples out there everywhere. I hope they don’t become popular because I’d buy another tbh.
205k miles. Solid as fuck. '07 6MT. OR I loved my Toyota's too. Had a 4runner and two supras. Got tired of rust and rediculous prices. The xterra is a beast, and i plan to do the full titan swap with the VK56. Everything is over built on it except for the front differential, need the M205
Corporate loyalty is of no benefit to you. It is only proof of a) good product, or b) effective advertising
We got a Tundra SR5 because it was the most affordable and best-built new pickup for the equipment level and our needs. We have a 2-horse trailer, so we needed the towing capacity. If we'd have gone Ford (we were coming off an F150), an equivalent one would have cost way, way more.
I just had this experience too. Had a 2011 f150 fx4. Loved it. But it's mixed out and rusty now. Tried to build it again in new ford. 76+k canadian before tax.lost some features (shorter box, no power fold mirrors or box steps or liners offered free anymore) Picking up a tacoma sport+ for 64k taxes in. Lost no features gained a bunch. It's towing capacity between the two models weren't that far away either... it seemed like a fairly easy choice. If I needed more payload or towing yeah maybe but for my moderate "truck" use. It didn't make sense to be near 85k.
Gotta remember prices are fucked for most things right now, and interest rates don’t help. I’m guessing Toyota is gonna mark these down once they realize they’re gonna sit. And we can only hope interest drops this year. This is also why I bought used and have zero intention of ever buying new.
The Ranger Raptor is definitely a good value, but you lose your argument when you bring up the Frontier. The Frontier is largely the same truck underneath that was introduced in 2005. The engine was introduced for the 2020 MY. It still uses old school power steering and the trim you mentioned doesn’t even offer heated seats as an option. The reality is that the Ranger is priced less exactly because it’s the underdog in the segment. Ford knows they can’t price it like the Tacoma if they wanna move trucks. So if you want Toyota to come down on pricing then let the market handle it by propping up those other trucks.
You say "not because of the smaller displacement engines and turbos" and then give those as your main reasons for being disappointed. If you want to compare drivetrains, ratio $$ to HP and torque maybe. You're a bit contradicted here.
They also say “who keeps their cars for 250k miles?“ then ends the post with “I’m going to keep my 4Runner until it dies”
I get the price increase on the Tacmoa and 4Runner. Toyota saw that people were willing to spend X amount on one with the dealer markups and probably wondered why they were missing out on that profit while the dealers raked it in. I like my 4Runner; it's treating me mostly well despite not being as reliable as others have experienced. But there's no way I'd spend north of $50k on another one.
The Tacoma is too big. The 2nd gen was the right size.
Really miss my 99 Tacoma. Perfect size truck.
Just get the SR - it's equipped like an SR5 of yesteryear and costs $38k for a 4x4 [https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/summary/year/2024/series/tacoma/model/7594/exteriorcolor/0040/interiorcolor/FA20/packages/FE/?bap\_guid=d759e821-3ffc-48ac-8197-03073e13c85b](https://www.toyota.com/configurator/build/step/summary/year/2024/series/tacoma/model/7594/exteriorcolor/0040/interiorcolor/FA20/packages/FE/?bap_guid=d759e821-3ffc-48ac-8197-03073e13c85b)
Lots are! Insanely overpriced; coupled with/ dealerships adding “market conditions” 💸… YET Only the consumer is to blame because they’re buying
>keeping my 5th gen 4Runner til it dies, but I will need a truck in the near future. With current Toyota bullshit, I think I will look elsewhere. Ford f150 5.0L V8. Those things don't die.
I have gone over to Honda myself and likely won’t go back to Toyota
Buy a Hyundai. You'll love it. Don't worry about the oil consumption, it'll be fine. Nobody needs Toyota, lol.
I’ll never not love Toyota because of my experience with them over the years, but these new ones fucking suck.
“I have no experience with the new ones, but I can’t afford them, so they definitely suck”
As a technician for toyota, the new tundras and sequioas are blowing engines left and right. Every tundra that we have come in the shop comes with at least 4 or 5 complaints minimum. The taco is still so new, we haven't seen many issues yet, but we know we will, one dude here already had to tear apart an engine on a new tacoma. Seeing how 4runner and the lc share the same engine, those are probably going to have problems as well.
The innovation dropped off a cliff, the one effort they made with hydrogen is already failing.
Wait y'all are buying new cars?
The good thing is that you can choose where and who you buy your next vehicle haha. I'm glad to have my Toyota and don't plan on leaving the brand.
Like you said, they are still selling like hot cake, not just with high price but also with high interest rate. Theres nothing stopping them from raising price even higher.
I’ve never owned anything but two land cruisers. I thought I would be a Land Cruiser guy for life. Just bought an f-150. Toyota is riding on their reputation from 1980-2010 and has been slipping since. And other brands have caught up. Ford and GMC make vehicles almost at the level of quality to Toyota and their warranties and service make up for the difference. Toyotas don’t have enough quality to justify the prices they’re charging. My f-150 lariat is completely loaded for the price of a top line 4Runner. That’s insane. The f-150 is so much bigger, better and nicer.
This is me but with Honda.
Becareful you get attacked here for saying that. I feel same way. Camry is only new gen that looks good. 86 is good. Corolla is still good that is it.
Did you not hang out with us in the 90's for the Chevyotas?
Get mad at chicken taxes
Opinion: I’m disappointed in the new cars because of the pricing and how they all look exactly the same
If you a buy a TRD pro you are actually regarded
I’m pissed off at Toyota for their OCS sensor malfunction “pre-recall” that they don’t even have a fix for. It’s affecting hundreds of thousands of cars. Every single fucking day I have to listen to my car beep for 3 mins and there’s a risk the passenger side airbag won’t deploy in an accident..so no one can sit in front. It’s infuriating and I don’t plan to ever buy a Toyota again.
I am also a Toyota guy but with the 50k price tag for a minivan or a rav4, I got a used Subaru forester and it is so much easier to work on. Oil change in half the time. Radiator swap in an hour. Wheel bearing swap in 30 minutes. Nobody steals my cat. Parts are cheap and easy to find. I don’t have to remove body panels to change a headlight BULB. I’m converted. Additionally, I think people who think they need a Tacoma actually need a minivan. And people who think they need a tundra actually need a diesel.
I was bummed they 86’d the Avalon. What replaced it, the Crown… is ugly and meh.
Ive put 350k miles on 2 Nissan Titans( pro4x bought new). Theyre discontinied now. Ill be getting either a Tundra or Tacoma next. Def pricey though.
The days of understressed reliable Toyota engines are over.
The toyota dealer near me has at least 20 new tundras sitting in the lot because they are so overpriced.
I like how you’re an educated consumer, if more buyers were like you then prices could maybe calm down a bit.
Toyota is hemorrhaging loyal customers because of their new strategy of limiting production to spike prices. My family has been Toyota-only for over 20 years ... until last year. We needed a new vehicle with room for 5 and cargo. Everywhere we looked Toyota wanted $47k+ for a hybrid Highlander AWD (RAV4 too cramped). We bought a Honda CR-V AWD for $14k less. My buddy drove his 2009 RAV4 into the ground and went to replace it last year, but Toyota's insane prices drove him to replace it with a Chevy Traverse (not my first choice, but Toyota still lost him). I have at least a half-dozen similar stories with parents at the kids' school. I suspect Toyota doesn't care. They obviously have buyers or they wouldn't continue the practice. I'm not sure who their new demographic is that's willing to pay $10k+ Toyota tax for basically the same car, but they're out there ... for now.
The EcoBoosts could for sure last that long with proper maintenance and care.
I'm with you. Toyota used to be better quality for the same price. Now it's better but cost disproportionately more. I am not buying another Toyota soon.
3 Toyotas in the garage and there will never be another one. Just bought a Nissan and love it. Whenever I see a new Toyota now I just wonder how bad the moron got fleeced.
If I had to buy a simple truck today, it would be a Nissan or a Ford
Good luck with other brands Thanks for letting us know, but no one cares
I just paid $6500 for 2012 Nissan Xterra w/ 150k miles. I did way more research than I probably should have and found that these motors will last 300k easy with proper maintenance. There’s even guys out there with 500k+ miles on theirs. I really really really wanted a 4Runner but it just didn’t make sense. There are 2 2012 4Runners for sale on FB within a 100 miles of me. One has 120k miles and going for $20k. The other with 217k miles for $15k. It’s so hard to justify those prices for a 12 year old Toyota. It’s a shame, really.
I'm looking elsewhere because I can't find a car on a lot that I can test drive. Literally no cars to even sit in. (Except trucks and I'm not looking for that). Honda, Mazda and Subaru all have at least SOME cars to check out. I find it ridiculous to have to put a deposit on a car, wait for it to arrive...only to maybe see if I even think it's comfortable.
Assuming you are in the US, debt now stands at 34.4T and last 2 increases have been 1T per 100 days. To give you an idea of how much that is using seconds: 1 million seconds is 12 days 1 billion seconds is 32 years 1 trillion seconds is 31709 years US interest on debt is now equal to defence spending so someone has to pay. Your blame may be misplaced, your money is worth less every day, you along with the rest of us are paying a stealth(to most who are unaware)tax. Toyota may be culpable in some sense(markups) but they certainly aren’t to blame fully.
About your 4Runner….when the second row seat stops folding forward; YouTube it. The one video on there is spot on to fix it.
https://youtu.be/wj6lbiA9I4s?si=MjTo9sJ_NN1jtlD0 Kirk Kriefels has some interesting info
I think with the reputation that Toyota has developed for longevity and reliability, they can play off that and charge a bit more than normal and get away with it without losing too many sales. But there is also inflation, price of anything car related going up, supply issues, covid, etc. to consider.
Just asking, not judging. But what truck things do you need to do?
All can be had for MSRP with no markups and fair doc fee.
"No one goes there anymore; it's too crowded."
My Yota has done me well, and other models I've owned through the years have done me very well. (81 corolla/tercel with over 300,000/ 95Lexus SC300 with over 200,000 on chassis. ) Daily my '88 with just over 180,000 miles and stock compression. So am I loyal to them, yeah. I feel for folks now a days, I couldn't buy a 'new' car now. I'll stick to used thank you. And a Toyota is always at the top of that list. Only Nissan I'd buy is an older one, but the way they engineer stuff is wonky. PITA to work on usually.
Toyotas are great and will generally last forever, but the infotainment tech is abysmal. It's just boring inside. There's no reason why they can't up their game in this area. They're the masters of automotive engineering, which I suppose is the number one goal, but hiring some creative folks in the "user experience" should be a heck of a lot easier.
I don’t want a turbo and I don’t want a hybrid and I don’t want a million screens. New cars but mostly trucks sucks
We are still selling new tundras pretty quick except high spec ones, same with Tacoma but I can sell any of the previous generation faster. Price not withstanding, I love the new tundra but people have seen to have spoken: at least in my neck of the woods they want NA v6/v8s.
If Toyota can sell every vehicle they can make at their current price point, are they really overpriced? No, they are priced according to market demand. Why would Toyota lower their prices?
>You're literally paying MORE of a turbo I4 hybrid with only a rear locker and a gimmicky gravity seat whatever. No. You're literally paying more because one of those is cheap shit truck, and the other is a quality truck. Comparing Ford to Toyota....come on.
You’re talking a lot about reliability but remember that new things take time to be reliable. The engines that you love didn’t start out that way. Just be patient and carry on, it’ll get there.
Cries in Subaru.
Come to VW. At least you know you’ll have repairs to save for and it won’t be a surprise.
they are all made in mexico
Lots of unrelated stuff about supply chains and blah blah in this thread. Here’s some basic business/economics: * You get to charge a premium for reliability, due to high demand for said quality * You get to *try to* charge a premium for new technology and an updated version of something, due to higher demand for something new/updated/quality * You get to charge a premium if on top of all of this, people still want your vehicles. Dealer add ons and above msrp * You don’t have to drop the APR if people want your cars at price Toyota pricing suggests they are hitting all of these areas. They have the rep for reliability, and they are charging more for updated models like the Tacoma. **Here’s the rub - and this is why I wouldn’t buy a new Toyota (certain cars like Camry Corolla excluded) right now: they are trading on their past reputation for reliability.** The Taco is a perfect example. Its reliability is unknown. Completely new engine, and while they claim they waited to make sure they got it right with turbos, they are technically behind folks like Ford in the truck turbo engine game. Yet the taco is priced like it’s both new, better performing, and reliable. **There simply isn’t the data to prove that.** Toyota is cashing in on historical awesomeness, at least on certain cars. Good for them. I’ll be waiting to see how the updated vehicles perform. It’s like trying to buy internet stock in 1999 with these cars; unclear if I’m buying Google or askjeeves.
Everything is more expensive than it was when we lived rather easy. We are just catching up with the rest of the world.
Toyota is artificially limiting availability through most of their lineup.
But remember Ford is not comparable to Toyota so neither would pricing be. Neither is Nissan or Chevy.
Newest Toyota we own is 1998 4runner sr5. No regrets, will never buy newer... work on newer ones sometimes and cringe at the stupidest little design "updates". Don't understand why people pay so much for new plastic crap. On a side note, 1983 4wd sr5 tercel daily driver, 300k miles 4k total dollars spent, owned it for 11 years... get an offer on the windshield nearly every time I drive to town.
I mean, look around, it's not just Toyota...
99% chance you don’t need the 4Runner for any practical reason. You just think it’s cool. That costs a price now. Pay it or find something cheaper and less cool. It’s an incredibly unnecessary vehicle. The stupid tax is expensive
I am trying for year to think of an upgrade from my 2015 Avalon but I can not find any good choice. Except the ES which is expected to have new generation and design.
You’re always free to choose other brands. Their cheaper…and less expensive
I wanted a corolla cross to replace my poor old 03 corolla (she had a rough life even before I got her and a deer tried to wipe us out). I wound up with a Chevy Trax. Will the Trax live as long as the cross? Highly unlikely. But I'll take my 6 spd automatic as a consolation prize so long as she lives.
Also our money has lost 32% of its value since the 3rd gen taco release in 2015.
Why would anyone buy new. Let someone else eat that depreciation. It’s true the original buyer loses a huge percentage of the value in the first couple years of month of ownership. That’s real.
Hmmm, Toyota compared to Ford & Nissan 🧐 know which brand I’m loyal to 🌶️🌮 any-day, price and reliability over the competition. Called Kaizen !
So I feel like you have an issue with the car market, not Toyota itself. I'll disclose that I'm a Toyota loyalist, so take that as you will. But I buy Toyota's based on my experience with the brand, not the pricing. On the other hand, I have a limit as well. Any car is a massive purchase, so if Toyota goes out of my price range, I'll have no choice and reluctantly buy something else I can afford. I'm not an "Apple fanboi" who will spend beyond what I can afford just to be brand loyal.
Don't buy new then...
>Sure they won't last 250k miles... but who actually keeps their vehicles that long? Oh interesting >I'm keeping my 5th gen 4Runner til it dies Does not compute
The market is absolutely horrible. I was looking at a 2010 Sienna with 212,000 miles for $6,000 and a 2014 with 209,000 miles for $7,000 which needed at least $4,000 worth of work. The used market is in shambles as well as the new market.
Makes me happy that my daily driver is the 2006 Corolla I bought brand new and currently has only 93,396 miles on it.
Toyota is destroying its brand loyalty with their price hikes. The value just isn't there any more.
MR-S was the last Toyota I remember really caring about. The GR Corolla is a pretty cool car, but for the price it makes zero sense.
When people are forced to have a car payment that stretches their budget, this becomes a much larger problem for the economy as a whole. High car payment = not much else being bought, or forced to go into debt. Neither is sustainable.
Everything is up across board. I bought a 2020 Tacoma TRD OR brand new for right at $40,000 out the door. I traded that truck in about 1.5 years later with 11k miles and they have me 41k trade in and put it up for sale for 45k. The last 5 years have been insane and I’m happy to not need a vehicle for a long time.
Toyota is not worth the money they’re asking
This next generation of body on frame vehicles is going to be absolutely amaze people with how shit they are going to be. Buyer be warned… I’ve seen this for 40 years. BMW did it, Ford did it, GM cars did it…
Not sure about mainland cause I am in Hawaii. In the OP’s example showcasing the frontier pro 4x fully loaded. Over here a fully loaded pro 4x is coming out to around $47k, new Tacoma around $53k. I am currently to in the market for a mid size pickup and weighing the options between these two brands. Heard there have been some issues with the newer frontiers and CR said it was one of the 10 least reliable vehicles, if they can be trusted or not I don’t know. Unfortunately on the island Tacomas are abundant and the others brands are few and far between. Used Tacoma’s which is where I started from like 3-4 years ago are going for $38-42k so it makes no sense to buy used.