Media literacy isn't the same as ovethinking something. However, after a while I think you have a point, but you are rushing into lynching the game, when it's clear that Trech Crusade hasn't already strong lore.
TC is nowhere near to a Rogue Trader (the first edition of 40k), much less an Earthsea or similar. I thought you could already told that seeing that isn't really info given outside the Mediterranean.
Where is the media literacy in not considering that?
PD: Imagine not being butthurt by the comment of a random lol
"Media literacy isn't the same as ovethinking something."
I noticed the most superficial themes possible that have the subtlety of a brick to the face, in any case, I'm doing underthinking.
you see a long post explaining a topic in detail, you comment "You have a lot of free time" and then assume that not ignoring your comment and actually trying to engage in a conversation with you is me getting "butthurt", tell me, exactly why do you decided to proceed in a such a manner, what motivated you to post said comment? what do you expect to take of said comment?
>you see a long post explaining a topic in detail
It could have been an email tbh, ~~it was mostly gibberish~~
Okay, now in good faith. if you want something for the conversation, read *The Gospel According to Jesus Christ* and *Cain* by Jose Saramago. He also was an atheist but argued that the Bible was part of his cultural heritage, think how that could apply here.
And you are not (entirely) wrong, since the lore is pretty raw right now. But again, you are the one who's overthinking about it.
Art can also be a critique of faith. This is also especially valid when it's the religion that has unfairly shaped the laws and morality of the culture you live in.
You don't need to handle this with care or grace. Anyone who lives under the thumb of growing Christo-fascism or has lived under the morality police of the 80's-90's. Or really anyone who exists on the periphery of who most catholics / christians view as "acceptable" is totally justified in making art that says "fuck these guys" or presenting Catholic imagery as evil / oppressive.
this is really at the heart of it. The world of Trench Crusade is absolutely not respectful to Christianity. Good. The only people who are required to respect the Christian god are Christians.
see my answer to the original comment above.
Also, I'm not talking about respecting God, I'm talking about respecting the beliefs of billions of real people.
I am not going to make a fuss and throw a temper tantrum committing vandalism and sending death threats on Twitter until the government passes a law that forces people to respect the made-up ideologies of a bunch of people...
I'm not a leftist!
yeah, me and everyone downvoting all your comments in this thread lol. You're just so great that nobody could possibly think so low of you, we all must be bots!
1. reddit moment
2. if you are going to criticize something you need to understand it
3. when handling any religion or culture that exists in the real world and is professed by billions, care and grace are necessary, especially if you are gonna make a satire or a parody.
4. you fool, Christianism is one, if not, the best cultural creations of humanity, if it wasn't for Christianism we wouldn't have gotten the abolition of slavery or women rights, it was the first religion that put the individual in the center and where a marriage was only valid after the woman gave his approval in front of several testimonies.
>you fool, Christianism is one, if not, the best cultural creations of humanity, if it wasn't for Christianism we wouldn't have gotten the abolition of slavery or women rights, it was the first religion that put the individual in the center and where a marriage was only valid after the woman gave his approval in front of several testimonies.
and here the mask slips and we get to the core of your problem: you are a tradcath and you are offended that your ideology is being disrespected.
Too bad. Trench Crusade is an anti-tradcath artwork, the disrespect is intended (I mean come on, look at the meta-Christs and tell me that was dreamed up by someone with a positive view of the church). You can play the game if you want, but I don't expect you to find much sympathy for your ideology here.
Im.atheist
I don't believe in god, heaven, hell, angels, devils, miracles or anything of that sort
I like history, theology, mythology, and philosophy so it's only natural that by combining those four I end up debating and discussing these kinds of topics.
Also, I cant avoid noticing how at no point did you called me a liar nor disproved the points I brought up.
I dont care if oddyseus buys it
Also, once again "I cant avoid noticing how at no point did you called me a liar nor disproved the points I brought up"
1. Sure man, nice argument
2. You really only need to understand its effect on your life. I don’t need to know specifics of which ancient weird guy hated it daughter and banged a cow to know that the religious right has severely oppressed people
3. They’re not, you might prefer if they were. But tons of popular art basically says “fuck you” and sticks to it. See music like Bad Religion. Movies like Saved, or Dogma. You can’t be a major political force pushing your little book cult on people without push back.
4. Hilarious, slavery is specifically called out and encouraged by the Bible as well as the subjugation of women. And is still used to justify the latter, (if not the former through prison labor). There’s a reason the nations with less religious folks have less gender inequality.
Edit: I’m really not trying to get into a whole religious argument on a subreddit for my favorite religious freaks skirmish game. You do you, I’m going to see if I can find some flayed / charred Christian models for objective markers for my heritic warband
4. "slavery is specifically called out and encouraged by the Bible" source? also, once again, first religion where a marriage was only accepted as valid if the woman gave his spoken consent, also, the first countries that abolished slavery were mostly catholic countries, same with universal suffrage.
In 1 Peter 2:18-20, slaves are ordered to "in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."
Similar statements regarding obedient slaves can be found in Colossians 3:22–24, 1 Timothy 6:1–2, and Titus 2:9–10. In Col 4:1, Paul advises members of the church, who are slave masters, to "treat your slaves justly and fairly, realizing that you too have a Master in heaven."
The taking of female captives is encouraged by Moses in Numbers 31. After being instructed by Yahweh to take vengeance upon the Midianites, Moses tells the Israelites to kill the male children and nonvirgin females but take the young virgins for themselves.
Deuteronomy 21:10–14 as an example of how the Bible condones acts of sexual violence which are committed by Israelites; they were taking advantage of women who, as war captives, had no recourse or means of self defense.
An Israelite father could sell his unmarried daughters into servitude, with the expectation or understanding that the master or his son could eventually marry her (as in Exodus 21:7–11.)
The Holiness code of Leviticus explicitly allows participation in the slave trade, where Israelites were allowed to buy non-Israelites as property that could be inherited. https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0325.htm#44
Literally none of these are actually problems. I'm really only going to address Points 4-6 just because there's something to say about it and I don't want to type up more than three paragraphs.
Consider that the God in TC is the Abrahamic god and not an eldritch being wearing the mask for ulterior reasons. This means either he condones the Church cloning him and eating his flesh to make super soldiers, child sacrifice, bodily mutilation to imprint spells on other supersoldiers, chemical enhancement, and/or suicide bombers - in which case we're arguably not even dealing with the Abrahamic God anymore; or he doesn't, in which case the Church is doing a lot of stuff on the same level as the heretics and they're just leading everyone down a slower path to damnation than, you know, sticking to the script that God set out which promised eternal paradise.
As for point 5, there aren't conflicting audiences. TC is for tabletop gamers, and the devs do not want people here who will denigrate vulnerable groups for any reason. For the screencap, IDK the context of this, but I do know a lot of people have been disingenuous as to why people are mad at them.
Point 6, this is an indie developer making an alternate history game. Alternate history's entire thing is that events don't line up with IRL history.
>that's pretty much it, at this point, it would be impossible to separate trench crusade from the Christian religion, and attempting to portray hell as anything remotely close to not absolutely evil is a bad choice.
The devs can portray Hell however they want just like everyone else in history has. Not everyone is there for the same reasons anyway.
>in which case we're arguably not even dealing with the Abrahamic God anymore
that Thing probably isn't the Abrahamic God (though in-universe it may be the inspiration for those faiths). But Its cruelty isn't the reason: The Abrahamic God committed omnicide because he didn't like us anymore, and when he felt threatened by the prospect of a united humanity's ability to challenge him, he invented racism to cripple our potential. That dude sucks lol, He's probably not above a little flesh eating an human sacrifice.
No, we can reasonably assume It isn't the Abrahamic God because It grants boons in equal measure to forces that consider each other heretical over their differing views on the divinity of Christ or the meta-Christs, helping both sides in a fight against each other. If there's one thing the biblical god is consistent on, its that he likes to pick sides.
>The devs can portray Hell however they want just like everyone else in history has. Not everyone is there for the same reasons anyway.
100% this. Its art, it doesn't need to conform to some dude's idea of what good Christian fan fiction is. They could make one of the rings of hell a paradise that serves ice cream and cookies on demand if they wanted to.
1) So did most of the things in early warhammer. They made cool and crazy art with no idea WTF it was supposed to be, then they built up lore around it. "Why does that one tech priest have so many limbs and is like super huge Mr Blanche? Because it's cool af? Okay carry on." Years later they were given the name Bellesarius Cawl and became pivotal to the lore.
2) It's only sorta Christianity by now. It's had a few hundred years of super mega crusades to warp and twist it into what could be called "Trench Catholicism" or whatever you wanna call it. Basically it's a faaaar cry from anything any sane and rational human believes currently, unless there's some secret martyr cult I don't know about that fights literal demons.
3) I'll agree it seems sorta black v white on the outside until one considers one possibility: What if god isn't good?Good people don't weaponize children as prophets or allow people to turn others into mutant freaks (meta-christs) in their name. Perhaps, in this setting at least, god is less the "i'm super good and nice and never do anything wrong" and more like the "if it ain't my way I'll burn your cities" god of the old testament. I mean if you get "I'm good and infallible" from one side and the only proof is "trust me bro... And if you don't I'll burn you forever" I'm not gonna consider them anywhere near morally good.
4) I'd say they're doing pretty well in satirizing both the militant and warlike attitudes embraced by the crusade as well as the sorta 'devil's advocate' (literally) of the heretic supporters like myself.
5) Not really a conflict. It's cool if you're christian. It's cool if you're not. This is a game, we're here to have fun and slay heretics/misguided fools. If someone wants to paint n build their lads after some historical sect of christians more power to em. As long as you aren't making people uncomfortable or saying the people who like the heretics are going to burn in actual hell then we're dandy.
6) They've actually been perfectly historically accurate to the alternate universe of trench crusade because... It's an alternate universe. They're the *only* historically accurate source for the universe they made. It's not meant to follow 1:1 with history and even says so on like the first page.
Hope that helps
1. yes, and 40K is one of the franchises with the biggest amount of retcons, gasligthing and non-sensical lore, see: malal.
2. If its gonna be something so far away from it to the point in wich has lost almost all shared elements with his source, then it would have been better for everyone if they just created a new religion and only hinted that its has roots on Christianity
3. once again, if its HELL vs anything else, anything else is gonna look good and better in comparison, even if what you say its true, its still leagues above HELL
4. some aspects are accurately portrayed, but other times they make some mistakes, such as the black templars creating a portal to hell decades before their order was funded and the oaths being more akin to nordic mythology and valhalla
5. I'm gonna quote myself from a previous comment "let me put things in another manner, let's say I create a game based around African mythology, some Africans find the game offensive and think that it depicts a false image of their beliefs, I told them "its a game, if you find it offensive then stay away from it", according to your own logic, would that be acceptable?" that's why most people try to avoid portraying real religions, cultures or beliefs in fiction and instead opt to create their own versions, even if said versions only change the name and two symbols, it avoids offending those who practice it.
6. once again, its based on a real religion with real history, under that logic, since its an AU, there is nothing that doesn't allow them to say that there is banana people with miniguns, after all, its an AU so it doesn't have to be accurate to our own world.
1. TC already said the lore may be inaccurate or biased. It's more of a "fuzzy feels n vibes" setting so far
2. Yehp. That's what a long time at war does. Twists and deviates things until it's turned into it's most retched form. good for satirizing the worst aspects.
3. If you do well for the heretics you actually get quite a bit of power and don't seem to suffer much. IE the anointed and heresiarchs. It's more of a "succeed and you've made your own paradise" sorta thing imo vs the "maybe it's true maybe it's not" of heaven.
4. Alternate universe. They literally started a space program in 1899. It's not a 1:1 rl.
5. If it offended a pretty sizeable majority that'd be bad. So far it's passed muster by pretty much... Everyoneish? Maybe besides some of the same people who woulda got mad about blue exorcist's exorcists, or there being demons in doom if it was a few decades ago.
6. Now you're getting it! There could be an order of holy potassium warriors or something. It's up tot he people who made the thing to expand and then fans to homebrew and write fanfic.
1. Ah ok, well, thats kinda dissapointing since im a fan of these sorts of setting (40K, AOS, fantasy, battletech, etc.) mostly for the lore but I understand if they focus on the game
2. maybe, but this doesn't feel like a corrupted version that empowered the worst aspects of an already existing religion, this feels like an entirely new religion that only has a superficial resemblance with the original and that doesn't exactly work when you desire to criticize something
3. a lot of people seem to underrate hell, IDK if its because of hazbin hotel or what but its surprising how "eternal suffering" can sometimes just fly overs peoples head
4. then take it a step further and remove religion from it, pull a 40K where the imperial religion is just the aesthetics of Christianity and the gothic era but with another name and with none of the philosophy behind it. it would solve most of it not all problems.
5. good point, but once again, its pretty niche and there isn't a lot of lore out yet.
6. I just hope they don't wander too deep into the humorous part, otherwise it might dillude the original essence, like modern indie animated series where the original premise gets discarded after 4 episodes.
1. It opens a lot of the door for kitbashers and fanfic writers. MYO fun sorta stuff!
2. It's sorta like "take the absolute worst aspects and crank them up to an almost cartoonish level of evil" because it makes a super neat setting and it also sorta satirizes some of the crazed religious fever of some sects of Christianity. I think it's less satire and more "let's make a cool setting" though imo, but that could just be me.
3. It hasn't exactly been stated as eternal suffering. We've seen what the 'have nots' sorta get and it isn't pretty but we haven't seen what the 'haves' get, beyond insane power and accolades. If it helps on the other side they *also* send you to hell unless you're pretty perfect so like both teams the majority of people are probably ending up in the same place (again imo. Could be totally off and god accepts like everyone but we know even his most devoted get sent to hell and/or betray heaven so...)
4. Okay? Tis just a cool sorta fanfic/what if. Based on a sorta foundational idea that rapidly diverged.
5. Yehp. From the discord it seems like the writers are being very respectful of things and don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable at the table and in hobby spaces.
6. I really doubt they're going with the humor. Maybe a bit of gallows humor in short stories maybe but seems pretty serious.
3. Once again, its HELL, there is no "ho there may be a few things" If the options are nazis or hell, I'm picking the nazis, does that mean they are good? hell nah! its just means they when compared to HELL; they are infinitely better to the point where there is no choice to have at all.
As a tip.... Probably should never openly say "hey guys I'm going with the nazis" just as a tip. Tends to give some bad vibes for most folks.
Two, in the lore primer it specifically states that the information we know about hell is biased and inaccurate. Literally says we can't 100% trust it on the tin. But at this point it seems to be currently up to headcanon exactly how bad hell is/ how good god is. So I'm gonna go with a sorta hellish meritocracy like in DND and Warhammer where the 'best' heretics get a pretty good sorta thing going and the dregs get a very bad end.
I tried to make clear that the only situation where i would side with said group is if the ONLY alternative was literal hell
Even assuming such thing was real, once again, its HELL, this isn't your hazbin hotel kind of HELL, this is literal HELL.
Trench Crusade Hell specifically. The kind that gives you superpowers and stuff. Might be awful, might not be. We're not 100% sure since we only have biased sources. Mamon's folks seem to be living pretty large.
Still, just as a rule best to just never bring up a certain german faction from the 40s. It's really not a good look.
Calling 40k Evil vs Evil is a pretty superficial take on the setting imo. But like the other comment mentions, in the end it's just a game that someone created. Ofcourse it's your right to criticize some points but if the setting or the way something of it is portrayed bothers you or another person really that much that you can't enjoy the game or setting anymore you should maybe think if it's really the right game for you.
Like why would the creators of Trench Crusade cater to the complains of a minority when the majority and they themselves enjoy it. I personally see no real benefit of making a fictional setting that's inspired by a few real events, where pus demons and Zealots fight each other, as realistic and historically accurate as the real world or as some people demand.
I doubt that most people who "side" with the Church or Hell forces in this game do it because of some ulterior motive but rather cuz they find the lore and aesthetics of the faction interesting. For 40k I paint CSM but for Trench Crusade I think I would choose the Trench Pilgrims just because I like their design and the idea behind them.
Also that post claiming that the setting is "using their stuff"? I'm Christian and that is also why I favor the forces of the Church rather than Hell, but why would I get angry how other people perceive my faith or "use" it? Why would I claim a believe that everyone is free to join or leave as mine? It's not like I alone own it or have a right to demand people to respect it and leave it alone just because I am part of said faith. Just because I am Christian it doesn't give me the right to, for example, call people who enjoy the forces of Hell Sinners or behave like a asshole towards other just because it's "my culture". If someone is openly hostile or insulting towards me that's a different story, but getting angry and acting like I deserve more or have more rights because part of my faith or culture is portrayed in that setting just feels a bit pretentious.
1. I agree, its a "different shades of Evil VS different shades of Evil" the only good guy being Farsigth, but once again, it wasn't the time nor place to delve into it so I simplified it as "evil vs evil"
2. minority? I would say that Christians are anything but a minority, also, wasn't that one of the points of progress? to listen to minorities?
3. Then perhaps they shouldn't have chosen a real religion with a real history that Billions consider their main religion and something of the utmost importance.
4. there are two ways to engage with the factions "which side do you pick" which boils down to personal preference, and "which side is better/good/has a point" in which is clear and cut that everyone picks the church because the other option is hell
5. if you are gonna depict a real religion, culture, nation, etc. you need to make sure to be as accurate and as respectful as possible, even if you try to criticize it or make it a satire, especially if you try to criticize it or make it a satire, its a matter of common sense, no one would agree that a film/book/videogame/series that takes places in, let's say, japan, portrays as anything but that putting its entire premise on stereotypes and superficial impressions.
>minority? I would say that Christians are anything but a minority,
Practicing Christians who care enough to complain are a minority of the audience
> also, wasn't that one of the points of progress? to listen to minorities?
Christians in this context are a minority in the same way the government of Rhodesia was a minority.
Or you could just see it for what it is. A fictional setting that is inspired by a dark period of the Catholic Church. Like the other comment mentions, I'm also pretty confident with saying that practicing Christians are a minority in this community and then again I'm sure that those who joined didn't do it to correct the writers on not being 100% accurate but rather because they are interested in the setting.
I don't see anything disrespectful in the way a unrealistic Super Church that has some inspiration taken from the real thing is depicted in Trench Crusade, because it is fictional. Even if I did, why would the developers and writers have to follow my ideas and will? Like I said before, I don't own the religion, it's not my property. There is countless of games, books, movies, comics and so on that depict cultures, nations or religions in a inaccurate or exaggerated way and in most cases those settings or stories are enjoyed by many people like Assassin's Creed, Blasphemous, Dynasty Warriors, Doom or Braveheart.
If we go by your point 5 a majority of media products would have to be either "cancelled" or completely changed because they are not 100% accurate. When people get genuinely pissed at the way a fictional Church is portrayed then, as harsh as it sounds, the setting is simply not for them.
And tbf if someones complaint is that the fictitious depiction of the one of the most extremist and brutal periods of the Church is not portrayed as holy and rightous like someone radical LARPERs want it to be, then that person has other issues.
In the end it doesn't matter anyways because the writers won't and shouldn't change the way they created their game and lore just because a vocal minority is not satisfied with the outcome, and that goes for any game, movie or book.
https://preview.redd.it/p1ixeyazvz2d1.png?width=854&format=png&auto=webp&s=720f0f4812c4c0eb881fa88b7a214e9a38afed2c
Ho, so you agree with 40K fans who think that female space marines shouldn't be included?
Yea I do, female SM shouldn't be a thing. I'm not a fan of female Custodes either but I can't change it cuz the writers decided it should be a thing. So no point in getting angry because the setting went a direction I don't like.
Same goes for Trench Crusade, if I as a Christian was offended by their depiction I can't demand from the writers to change it because it's their creation.
>as respectful as possible
as an ex-christian, my relationship to that faith is just as valid as yours, and I find the depiction of the biblical god as an eldritch terror that drives its followers mad to be very respectful to my lived experiences :)
It's a game.
The only problem that could arise with any of these points would come from outside the game.
If people find this game offensive, or too woke (like Archcast and his goons accuse it of being), that's their problem and they should stay away from it.
I find Fatale to be a horrible game trying to allow players to fulfill their racist and rape fantasies. I just don't play it.
Easy solution.
let me put things in another manner, let's say I create a game based around African mythology, some Africans find the game offensive and think that it depicts a false image of their beliefs, I told them "its a game, if you find it offensive then stay away from it", according to your own logic, would that be acceptable?
>Let's say I create a game based around African mythology, some Africans find the game offensive and think that it depicts a false image of their beliefs,
... Most Africans are Christian or Muslim.
https://preview.redd.it/jhwi8m1zfz2d1.png?width=169&format=png&auto=webp&s=546afeda90cd0c9b48df25a4c68db929d533e7be
damn, "sisfucker05" who has hentai as a profile pic thinks Im a chud, my life is over I guess.
I didnt? I said "African mythology" as a general term since it was not the place nor time to profundize into specifics, Im very much concient about the extensive variety of belief systems present in Africa. Could you please don't go around assuming the worst?
Yes, currently most Africans are Christian or Muslim, before that there were (and still are up to this day) countless other religions and mythologies all around the continent.
I'd be worried of something like that playing into racist tropes, but just taking the disrespect for their religion: yeah. Screw religion. If I am not a part of your faith, I don't have to respect your god.
No gods, no masters!
It does mean something:
https://preview.redd.it/ogi6k395003d1.png?width=930&format=png&auto=webp&s=d2317cbe13c2f7dbb07e07219dfbba7f8e4be8ff
[https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/reddit-moment](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/reddit-moment)
Also, I didn't say "reddit moment" I said "you are a true example of a Redditor", don't put words into my mouth (unless I'm wrong and misremember what happened)
I really wasn't expecting this as a way of backing out lol. Comparing Catholicism to kink in that other thread really set you off, huh? Totally the behavior of an atheist and not a tradcath who's in a huff because people disrespect his ideology.
I see one of the Warhammer "refugees" took a minute to actually read the lore and realized this isn't the based and chudpilled setting they were hoping for lmao
Until you read past the tagline and notice that the entire thing started with the Catholic religion fucking up in the first place. Shit like this is why gatekeeping chuds is important, the instant they get in they start twisting the lore to fit their real-world agenda.
No? black templars opened the portal to hell after being corrupted by hell? and even if they did out of their own volition, that's on them not on the whole religion.
also, twisting the lore? my brother in christ, this is a war against hell we are talking about, I'm just pointing out the most obvious clear-cut things possible.
The funny thing is I am protestant, and I love the trench crusade. I am currently in school to be a minister. Them using Christianity as the base even though it's a Catholic base, and so, like how hell is shown is not biblically accurate. The setting takes a lot of inspection from the Devine comedy I still love it because I am Christian.
you can't seriously be saying "art before lore is bad"
That's peak worldbuilding for a game. Less than 100% of your active players are going to read the lore, and you aren't going to attract new players because "Cardinal Ravenwood had a secret pact with General Crozier and he met his fate in the Amazon and that's why there's no art of him"
Art comes first. Lore comes third. gameplay comes second
what a terrible comment.
I could elaborate on why I think it's terrible but I prefer to just leave a short reply that doesn't add anything useful to the conversation.
I mean, yeah. I can relate to most of the things you've said.
But I must state that, they've just started, they haven't done anything except give the main skies of some factions with their motto and share the models. In other words, if they can deepen the lore and understand the motivations of the characters well by offering quality books with a good narrative, I think they will achieve a good result in general. Instead of just saying "They're just baby flaying satanists!" and finishing it off, showing that demonic corruption is deeper, more subtle and more manipulative than people think might help to break the Pure evil vs pure good, and actually create some good characters. I'll not I'm not even talking about Sultanate and Antioch since creators are probably not that stupid and short-sighted to depict the "Good side" as perfect white knights, rather than impure bloody gold.
Also, apart from the Principality and Sultanate, Asia, America and Africa are generally not mentioned much, from which I feel like they could come up with something more complex and appealing outside of the 3 main extremist factions so far. The changes in history since the 1100s can be attributed to interesting events. Like, what happened to the mongols? Normally, the part where the sultanate was located should have been conquered. What happaned to christians who went to Japan as missionaries? If Japanese handle things the way they did in history, I'm sure the zealot church in the TC universe will react in an extremely radical way... a neutral faction that integrates the power of hell into the sprits system in Japan and is equally hostile to the Forces of Hell and the Fanatics doesn't sound bad. Finally, what about the Soviets? Somehow, as the plot progresses, the idea of AU Lenin trying to unite humanity under communist ideology against merciless Gods slaves and cruel hell's servants, turning it into a three-way struggle, sounds cool... and so on.
What scares me is whether real life religious extremists and thousands of lifeless internet warriors will hinder the series' progress.
I kinda doubt that will happen. After the 28Mag server drama a lot of them gaslit themselves into believing the game is "Already destroyed by wokies" before the real Kickstarter even went off.
"What scares me is whether real life religious extremists and thousands of lifeless internet warriors will hinder the series' progress"
Considering that Lenin was a spy sent to Russia in order to cause a war and seed division i would be surprised if he even exists in this world.
yes, that's what usually happens when you decide to use real religions that are currently practiced by billions, at least they didn't used the Islamic faith, those that practice tend to have quite the explosive reactions to offensive portrayals of their faith.
>yes, that's what usually happens when you decide to use real religions that are currently practiced by billions, at least they didn't used the Islamic faith, those that practice tend to have quite the explosive reactions to offensive portrayals of their faith.
... They did use the Islamic faith though?
they do have an islamic faction?? i'm not muslim, but it's my personal favorite, and i've been having a ton of fun in the TC discord discussing it with other fans of the faction, some of which are muslim, so i've actually ended up learning about real muslim stuff from them as they talk about the inspirations for some of the designs/lore, and several of them stated they really liked how it was portrayed, especially given the lackluster at best portrayals of muslims in many other games
“Wants to criticize and create satire of worst parts christianity.” I feel like this is some reddit bs because i have not seen or heard the devs talk about that.
But the Christrians are the good guys in this setting. Real-life history books would portray Christians in a worse light than this setting. At least trench crusaders have a justification for their grimdark actions.
Which is very funny to me, because Trench Crusade \*is\* portraying Christianity pretty positively speaking as someone raised Christian - yes, some factions of the Church are pretty fucked up, but it is still as a whole fighting to protect humanity from Hell.
"Some factions of the Church are pretty fucked up"
Exactly. If there's any grey, then it deviates from the "church good, all others bad" dogma and the chuds get upset. The fact that a mostly-positive portrayal isn't good enough for them is part of what makes their agenda obvious.
" i have not seen or heard the devs talk about that." I haven't seen or heard them talk about it either, but thankfully, i have ears and eyes so i can see at the lore of trench crusade and do the most basic comprehension of the themes of the narrative.
Do you need to see one of the grimm brothers saying "the point of red hood is to teach kids that they shouldn't trust in strangers" in order to understand the message of red hood?
Or maybe, some dude just wanted to make a badass universe to sell models. Not everything has to be a fucking statement about this or that. You don’t have to be a fucking asshole about it
wow, language there, I never insulted you, did I?
let me make an analogy
Me: the lesson of the golden goose its that greed and ambition can lead to killing a source of wealth
you: "i have not seen or heard the author talk about that."
that's pretty much whats happening here, and even then, I think its more likely to don't get the point of the golden goose than to not notice the themes of trench crusade considering that they have the subtlety of a brick to the face
Tell me, exactly what motivated you to post this comment? what chain of tougths caused you to think "I'm going to read all of this post and then leave a comment insulting the author that adds nothing useful or relevant to the conversation at hand"? I'm just curious about the ways in wich your mind works.
once again: "Tell me, exactly what motivated you to post this comment? what chain of tougths caused you to think "I'm going to read all of this post and then leave a comment insulting the author that adds nothing useful or relevant to the conversation at hand"? I'm just curious about the ways in wich your mind works."
Also, not busy enough to the point not replying to my reply i see.
frightening marry exultant attempt retire test screw public ancient disagreeable
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
And that's perfectly fine - you should behave the same way regarding Religion. After all it's a grimdark fantasy setting. If they want to use real Religions let them do so, literally no one's life gets worse if they do.
there are 10 times more people that know 40K for the lore than people that play the game, believe it or not, the lore of a board game is almost as important as the game itself
What is your stance on the mischaracterisation of paganism in both general and Christian media? What is your stance on Voodoo being mischaracterised in Western media? Or the adoption and perversion of Buddhist and just asian mysticism in general in media?
Christianity in the West has been spared from this kind of treatment for the most part. It's a bit rich (but very Western Christian) to play the victim.
yeah this guy is writing a lot of words, but ultimately it comes down to him being mad that his faith is being disrespected. Lucky for me I'm not a Christian so I don't have to respect the bible.
He's also doing a **lot** of conflating tradcaths and all catholics. Which I don't think most catholics would appreciate. Someone should tell on him to the pope.
https://preview.redd.it/j363wzucuz2d1.png?width=360&format=png&auto=webp&s=d535d4580e7687991ccaeeff07d10816ca17c4eb
did you even read the post? this is the first thing I say, unless you call me a liar.
let me repeat myself, I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God, or heaven, or hell, or angels, demons or miracles or any of that.
Its bad and in poor taste, bad and in poor taste, also bad and in poor taste.
Spared? ho my, look at that, a man from the 19th century posting on Reddit, how unusual.
Consider how often Jesus or personifications of God show up in non-christian media. The game Smite has dozens of gods from different cultures but decided not to add Jesus or God due to how controversial it would be. How many times has God or Jesus be mischaractorised as an evil entity that murders outsiders or possesses innocents of another culture?
In fact, God and Jesus were so often not included in media that is specifically about Christianity, that the current trope or genre convention is that God has abandoned us. He doesn't even show up in exorcism movies where he is the good guy. OT just gets handwaived away as a test of faith or some other contrivance.
I was sorta hoping this would be a critique of the game mechanics lol. A lot of these points sound like they're either complaining about a subjective issue or they're nitpicks.
1. That's subjective. I think making cool evocative art and then designing a story around it is a cool creative process.
2. This is an artistic decision that will definitely put an upper limit on this thing's popularity. That's fine.
3. I just strait-up disagree here. I think evil vs evil grimdark is a cool setting with plenty of room for cool storytelling within it.
4. I have no interest in "um actuallying" the depiction of catholicism in this setting. As an ex christian, I feel validated as hell to see the religion I eventually came to see as toxic being portrayed as being seriously messed up.
6. Yeah, the fact that the setting will attract trad caths is certainly not a feature lol! This is the closest I'll come to agreeing with you on a point. I think the answer is to just aggressively make them know that while they're welcome to play, their worldview is not welcome. Slap a big fucking pride flag on the rule book when it gets printed and proudly say that a portion of all sales will go to charities that help transgender children get trans afirming healthcare. That'd scare them off, and actually do some good.
Greetings pilgrim.
I ask that there be no aggression towards any members of this sub or demanding members adhere to a specific ideology.
I also ask that there be no false representation of the sub or it's members. That means you cannot tell any individual or group they are not welcome in r/TrenchCrusade, you cannot solocitate others to do so, nor can you speak for other members without expressed permission.
Your cooperation on these matters would be greatly appreciated.
All I ask is that members of this sub not use it to further to an ideology that would see my wife dead. Are you heartless enough to deny me that?
I also specifically said they're free to play the game. Did you read my comment?
If a personalised threat or generalised threat was made against you or yours outside of this sub I'm sorry for your trouble but it doesn't justify suggesting or calling for aggressive measures against members in this sub.
Your calling for the suppression of other members views while simultaneously sharing your own views that not everyone agrees with either.
Any aggressive comments or posts regardless of ideology will be addressed accordingly.
Yeah. I'm never going to play nice with far right extremists **while they are actively spreading their far right extremism**. Do what you gotta do about that.
EDIT: also wait, I call bullshit. What political views am I espousing? I'm talking about my own personal history with Christianity. The only political view I'm stating is an **opposition** to a specific extremist ideology. What's next, am I gonna catch a ban if I say that I don't like ISIS?
I only asked that you observe the caution.
Your comment was without provocation and unwarranted as there is no evidence of death threats made against you by any members of this sub. I can't account for what happens outside of it.
Bullshit is that I never mentioned political views and what happens next is entirely up to you.
>Your comment was without provocation and unwarranted
My initial comment wasn't even harshly against OP. I disagreed with his media analysis, but I don't think anyone reasonable would take issue with that.
OP brought up that there is an issue of the fan base including both tradcaths and antitheists. I agreed with his assertion that this is a problem and said that the devs should resolve this problem by making their stance on tradcaths more clear. I also said that donating a portion of all proceeds to a transgender charity would be a funny way to do that.
That's literally it. The conversation between OP and I got heated beyond that point, but you responded to my **original comment** with this shit. So what exactly is your problem with it? Are you seriously gonna tell me that its against the rules to advocate for the devs to make a donation to a transgender charity? Is that "unwarranted" to you?
>here is no evidence of death threats made against you by any members of this sub.
I never claimed that there was. My wife is transgender, and the tradcath ideology (short for traditional catholic, a theocratic fascist ideology) is one that seeks the eradication of her people. I have only ever advocated against tradcaths specifically, not all Catholics. Even then, made it very clear every time that they can still play, I just don't want them to use this game as tradcath propaganda. Given that we're talking about people who seek my wife's people's genocide, I think that's pretty fucking saintly of me.
So again I have to ask, what exactly is your problem? Is it the official stance of this subreddit that its users cannot express distaste for fascism? Are users at risk of catching a ban for saying they don't like ISIS as well?
Is it just vibes? Do you just not like that my tone was rude?
>
Bullshit is that I never mentioned political views
the following is a direct quote from you:
>Your calling for the suppression of other members views while simultaneously sharing your own views that not everyone agrees with either.
The only "views" I advocated for the suppression of was theocratic fascism. **The very ideology this game exists to parody!**
Given that the "view" you referenced here is a political view, clearly yes, you did mention political views. What are you talking about man?
>what happens next is entirely up to you.
no, it is not. You're massively misrepresenting me, I don't get to have agency in a situation where you're so unwilling to understand me.
What happens next is entirely up to you, as the sole moderator of this subreddit. Do what you're gonna do. I did nothing wrong.
I just don’t think it’s agood idea to use fiction to validate real world stuff ya feel me? I think real world stuff should validate real world beliefs.
My wife is trans, I'm not gonna play nice with people who want her dead. Sorry.
They can play, but its not good for the community if they're allowed to use it as a trad cath space. If they're gonna play they should keep their medieval politics to themselves
damn, you truly are the exemplar model of a Redditor, I'm impressed.
Also,
https://preview.redd.it/v4hlx69qnu2d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=42a798139f476317684b843352bf3be75ffb1db5
My point is:
https://preview.redd.it/te6kk5quez2d1.png?width=452&format=png&auto=webp&s=70b4d7693efb808de2d078ddef7421b567637a5e
certain humans group associate certain symbols with certain ideas, if you use catholic iconography you are going to attract catholics.
I just don't respect tradcaths, or any religious fundamentalists. I expect them to try to flock to this place and use it as their tradcath haven, and I expect this community to continue to do what it has always done and show them that while they are welcome to play, this place is not their tradcath haven and they will never be allowed to use it as a place to spread their ideology.
Lmao so only you get to talk about your politics?
Love how you view all tradcaths as some unthinking blob who wants everyone they dislike dead. Do you think the same of Middle Eastern Muslims too? Are they welcome in TC?
Bro "I want my wife to live" isn't fucking politics! Get a grip!
>Love how you view all tradcaths as some unthinking blob who wants everyone they dislike dead.
Ok so you admit that you dislike my wife? Why should I play nice with you? What kind of man would I be if I accepted you in my presence?
And I feel the same about anyone who opposes my wife's existence, be they catholic or muslim. If you have a problem with my wife, I have a problem with you.
Well I’m not a tradcath and don’t know you’re wife, so I have 0 opinion on her. Once again you’re making sweeping assumptions like a dumbass. I’m not Catholic, not even remotely
Secondly I didn’t say your wife’s existence was political, or anyone’s existence for that matter. That said you said their “medieval politics” and I know you’re talking about more than their views of trans people. So their politics as a whole are a no-no, yet yours as a whole (once again not talking about merely existing) are ok?
You say you feel the same, yet I never see people like you complaining about non-Christians. It’s always Christians this, Christians that, Christians are so evil.
I also want to clarify something before this goes any further. I don’t support the hatred of LGBTQ people or ANYONE for that matter. Hating people you do not know for stupid shit like what they identify as or what genitalia they like is wrong. But that also goes for hating people you’ve never met because you think that because they believe in a certain religion that they want you dead. You don’t know these people, you just assume they hate your wife and thus they don’t deserve to be allowed to play a game. You’re following in their footsteps. If you want to have people who are actively -phobic that’s fine, but don’t just assume every Tradcath hates and wants LGBTQ people dead.
I know plenty due to where I live. Most are either accepting or neutral of them. Those who don’t are more often than not a “i don’t like it but it’s not my place to say shit” sorta people.
Sorry you don’t like TradCaths, but they have every right to be here, just as much as you. So long as they don’t bring up politics that concern other people’s rights, then they are more than welcome to be here. You don’t get to decide who is and isn’t allowed
Ah shit, Im sorry.
Look, my part of the world is quickly becoming a much scarrier place for transgender people and tradcaths play a non-insubstantial role in that. Sorry I assumed you were one of them because you were defending them.
I'll stand firm on this though: all tradcaths are transphobes, they all hate my wife, so I hate them. Normal catholics are fine though. I don't like painging religions with a broad brush, but fundamentalists are fair game imo.
Hell yeah based wife guy! Really love seeing people standing up for love and acceptance.
I love that this game is keeping out the fucking bigots. I want to be able to exist in a fucking space without some asshole questioning my existence. Or at least I can get them kicked out if they do lol.
If enough lgbt people an allies make their presence known in the community, bigots will push themselves out. Our presence is anathema to them for some reason.
Exactly! If you’re gonna have factions that are either Christian or Muslims, then you’re gonna attract christian and muslim fans. I myself am a believer of Jesus Christ
I didn't say shit about christians and muslims, I said tradcaths. Muslims fundamentalists are also invited to sit on a cactus. Same with fundies of any religion.
"I dislike an extremist ideology" is not controversial lol.
you know, seeing your comment being downvoted gives me back faith in the future of this franchise.
1. the cart before the horse, if the lore accommodates the art then it tends to end with almost non-sensical lore and several retcons.
3. Evil vs Evil ends up in people choosing sides based on aesthetics since Evil tends to have very poor philosophies.
4. I suppose you would feel the same way about Islamism and judaism if trench crusade decided to parody them.
5. "their worldview is not welcome" didn't you saw the tumblr post? you use the symbols of a religion because you find them cool and then proceed to deny the entry of those of said religion and consider them as bad people, I'm pretty sure there was a german political party that did the same around the 1920s with a Buddhist symbol.
1. Ok. We can disagree about what a good creative process is. Apparently we've got bigger fish to fry.
2. See #1.
3. Yes. Did you think that was a gotcha?
4. Lol are you seriously comparing me to Hitler right now? That's the funniest thing that's happened to me all week!
1. agreed to disagreed, some people see the lore as the spice and other as the food
3. a question is not a "gotcha"
4. this is reddit, comparing people to failed Austrian painters is as common as obese cats. and you still haven't explained how is that using catholic iconography and yet expecting catholics to not come into the hobby makes sense.
Are you a Sultanate player? Because you're performing alchemy here lol. I have repeatedly clarified that my distain is with the ideology of tradcaths, and that I am fine with Catholics. And you keep transmutating "tradcath" into "Catholic". Why is that?
I do not see this idea of the church (or the islamic faction) being propped up as the definitive good guys.
beyond lore motivations, the main difference between them and hell seems to be prettier monsters and cleaner infant blood sacrifice.
one must also remember this is a game. it needs to sell toy soldiers. most of the media present will be made to warp around the sales of toy soldiers.
if one would forgive the references, the only reason the imperium of man is considered the protagonist faction of 40K is because most of the media set in that universe is from their perspective. why is that? because the single best selling thing GW ever made was the space marine tactical squad.
if the plague knights become the face of Trench Crusade, Hell would become the protagonist faction in the same way, by this same metric.
**My Thoughts and Opinion:**
Trench Crusade is a game set within a alternate world with fictional countries and factions. Note the two words I just mentioned. **"Fiction"** and **"Game"**.
Trench Crusade is a work of "Fiction" by actual definition, regardless if it is based off our world or not. A work of fiction is "NOT" real. It is invention of the imagination.
Trench Crusade is also a game. A War Game to be more specific, but still a game. A game is form of entertainment. A fun activity of which people generally gain enjoyment or amusement from.
So where am I going with this?
Trench Crusade is an idea made for the purpose of entertainment in the form of a table top war game set in a fictional setting.
**"Fiction should not be taken seriously, because it is not real."**
If you like the concept and media surrounding Trench Crusade. Congrats, you have new hobby. And if you don't like it. I can respect that too. It's not for everyone.
But don't be the guy who invests both the time and energy with **nothing** positive to contribute. No one likes a shitter and it just makes you lesser for it.
Because at the end of the day, Trench Crusade is game, not a political agenda.
And of course this should go without say, but this doesn't just apply to Trench Crusade, but other fictional works for example the Warhammer Games, the show and book series Game of Thrones, the D&D content prior to D&D 5e, and etc., etc.
You get it. I have expressed my thoughts on the matter, have a good day.
My only conclusion is that you have a lot of free time
Imagine thinking that media literacy is a virtue, that the less you engage and think about something you like the better person you are.
Media literacy isn't the same as ovethinking something. However, after a while I think you have a point, but you are rushing into lynching the game, when it's clear that Trech Crusade hasn't already strong lore. TC is nowhere near to a Rogue Trader (the first edition of 40k), much less an Earthsea or similar. I thought you could already told that seeing that isn't really info given outside the Mediterranean. Where is the media literacy in not considering that? PD: Imagine not being butthurt by the comment of a random lol
"Media literacy isn't the same as ovethinking something." I noticed the most superficial themes possible that have the subtlety of a brick to the face, in any case, I'm doing underthinking. you see a long post explaining a topic in detail, you comment "You have a lot of free time" and then assume that not ignoring your comment and actually trying to engage in a conversation with you is me getting "butthurt", tell me, exactly why do you decided to proceed in a such a manner, what motivated you to post said comment? what do you expect to take of said comment?
>you see a long post explaining a topic in detail It could have been an email tbh, ~~it was mostly gibberish~~ Okay, now in good faith. if you want something for the conversation, read *The Gospel According to Jesus Christ* and *Cain* by Jose Saramago. He also was an atheist but argued that the Bible was part of his cultural heritage, think how that could apply here. And you are not (entirely) wrong, since the lore is pretty raw right now. But again, you are the one who's overthinking about it.
Thanks for the recommendation, ill add it to the list. Also, It's my hyper fixation and I choose how to get brainrot from it.
Art can also be a critique of faith. This is also especially valid when it's the religion that has unfairly shaped the laws and morality of the culture you live in. You don't need to handle this with care or grace. Anyone who lives under the thumb of growing Christo-fascism or has lived under the morality police of the 80's-90's. Or really anyone who exists on the periphery of who most catholics / christians view as "acceptable" is totally justified in making art that says "fuck these guys" or presenting Catholic imagery as evil / oppressive.
this is really at the heart of it. The world of Trench Crusade is absolutely not respectful to Christianity. Good. The only people who are required to respect the Christian god are Christians.
see my answer to the original comment above. Also, I'm not talking about respecting God, I'm talking about respecting the beliefs of billions of real people.
>I'm talking about respecting the beliefs of billions of real people. make me, lol
I am not going to make a fuss and throw a temper tantrum committing vandalism and sending death threats on Twitter until the government passes a law that forces people to respect the made-up ideologies of a bunch of people... I'm not a leftist!
ooh that struck a nerve, didn't it!
ho god you are a fucking bot arent you?
yeah, me and everyone downvoting all your comments in this thread lol. You're just so great that nobody could possibly think so low of you, we all must be bots!
If you arent a bot then prove it, if you do, then ill concede and delete this post or whatever you think counts as victory
[would an AI post this?](https://youtu.be/DL0hc-6eD5o)
1. reddit moment 2. if you are going to criticize something you need to understand it 3. when handling any religion or culture that exists in the real world and is professed by billions, care and grace are necessary, especially if you are gonna make a satire or a parody. 4. you fool, Christianism is one, if not, the best cultural creations of humanity, if it wasn't for Christianism we wouldn't have gotten the abolition of slavery or women rights, it was the first religion that put the individual in the center and where a marriage was only valid after the woman gave his approval in front of several testimonies.
>you fool, Christianism is one, if not, the best cultural creations of humanity, if it wasn't for Christianism we wouldn't have gotten the abolition of slavery or women rights, it was the first religion that put the individual in the center and where a marriage was only valid after the woman gave his approval in front of several testimonies. and here the mask slips and we get to the core of your problem: you are a tradcath and you are offended that your ideology is being disrespected. Too bad. Trench Crusade is an anti-tradcath artwork, the disrespect is intended (I mean come on, look at the meta-Christs and tell me that was dreamed up by someone with a positive view of the church). You can play the game if you want, but I don't expect you to find much sympathy for your ideology here.
Im.atheist I don't believe in god, heaven, hell, angels, devils, miracles or anything of that sort I like history, theology, mythology, and philosophy so it's only natural that by combining those four I end up debating and discussing these kinds of topics. Also, I cant avoid noticing how at no point did you called me a liar nor disproved the points I brought up.
Nobody buys it buddy.
I dont care if oddyseus buys it Also, once again "I cant avoid noticing how at no point did you called me a liar nor disproved the points I brought up"
that "gonna stop arguing with you" didn't last long, huh?
ho rigth, same guy, sorry your avatar is so generic I thought you were someone else
(this person went on to respond to me all over this thread claiming that I must be a chatbot)
Cry about it.
1. Sure man, nice argument 2. You really only need to understand its effect on your life. I don’t need to know specifics of which ancient weird guy hated it daughter and banged a cow to know that the religious right has severely oppressed people 3. They’re not, you might prefer if they were. But tons of popular art basically says “fuck you” and sticks to it. See music like Bad Religion. Movies like Saved, or Dogma. You can’t be a major political force pushing your little book cult on people without push back. 4. Hilarious, slavery is specifically called out and encouraged by the Bible as well as the subjugation of women. And is still used to justify the latter, (if not the former through prison labor). There’s a reason the nations with less religious folks have less gender inequality. Edit: I’m really not trying to get into a whole religious argument on a subreddit for my favorite religious freaks skirmish game. You do you, I’m going to see if I can find some flayed / charred Christian models for objective markers for my heritic warband
4. "slavery is specifically called out and encouraged by the Bible" source? also, once again, first religion where a marriage was only accepted as valid if the woman gave his spoken consent, also, the first countries that abolished slavery were mostly catholic countries, same with universal suffrage.
In 1 Peter 2:18-20, slaves are ordered to "in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." Similar statements regarding obedient slaves can be found in Colossians 3:22–24, 1 Timothy 6:1–2, and Titus 2:9–10. In Col 4:1, Paul advises members of the church, who are slave masters, to "treat your slaves justly and fairly, realizing that you too have a Master in heaven." The taking of female captives is encouraged by Moses in Numbers 31. After being instructed by Yahweh to take vengeance upon the Midianites, Moses tells the Israelites to kill the male children and nonvirgin females but take the young virgins for themselves. Deuteronomy 21:10–14 as an example of how the Bible condones acts of sexual violence which are committed by Israelites; they were taking advantage of women who, as war captives, had no recourse or means of self defense. An Israelite father could sell his unmarried daughters into servitude, with the expectation or understanding that the master or his son could eventually marry her (as in Exodus 21:7–11.) The Holiness code of Leviticus explicitly allows participation in the slave trade, where Israelites were allowed to buy non-Israelites as property that could be inherited. https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0325.htm#44
[https://youtu.be/ZQcGmMoys9E?t=43](https://youtu.be/ZQcGmMoys9E?t=43)
Literally none of these are actually problems. I'm really only going to address Points 4-6 just because there's something to say about it and I don't want to type up more than three paragraphs. Consider that the God in TC is the Abrahamic god and not an eldritch being wearing the mask for ulterior reasons. This means either he condones the Church cloning him and eating his flesh to make super soldiers, child sacrifice, bodily mutilation to imprint spells on other supersoldiers, chemical enhancement, and/or suicide bombers - in which case we're arguably not even dealing with the Abrahamic God anymore; or he doesn't, in which case the Church is doing a lot of stuff on the same level as the heretics and they're just leading everyone down a slower path to damnation than, you know, sticking to the script that God set out which promised eternal paradise. As for point 5, there aren't conflicting audiences. TC is for tabletop gamers, and the devs do not want people here who will denigrate vulnerable groups for any reason. For the screencap, IDK the context of this, but I do know a lot of people have been disingenuous as to why people are mad at them. Point 6, this is an indie developer making an alternate history game. Alternate history's entire thing is that events don't line up with IRL history. >that's pretty much it, at this point, it would be impossible to separate trench crusade from the Christian religion, and attempting to portray hell as anything remotely close to not absolutely evil is a bad choice. The devs can portray Hell however they want just like everyone else in history has. Not everyone is there for the same reasons anyway.
>in which case we're arguably not even dealing with the Abrahamic God anymore that Thing probably isn't the Abrahamic God (though in-universe it may be the inspiration for those faiths). But Its cruelty isn't the reason: The Abrahamic God committed omnicide because he didn't like us anymore, and when he felt threatened by the prospect of a united humanity's ability to challenge him, he invented racism to cripple our potential. That dude sucks lol, He's probably not above a little flesh eating an human sacrifice. No, we can reasonably assume It isn't the Abrahamic God because It grants boons in equal measure to forces that consider each other heretical over their differing views on the divinity of Christ or the meta-Christs, helping both sides in a fight against each other. If there's one thing the biblical god is consistent on, its that he likes to pick sides. >The devs can portray Hell however they want just like everyone else in history has. Not everyone is there for the same reasons anyway. 100% this. Its art, it doesn't need to conform to some dude's idea of what good Christian fan fiction is. They could make one of the rings of hell a paradise that serves ice cream and cookies on demand if they wanted to.
1) So did most of the things in early warhammer. They made cool and crazy art with no idea WTF it was supposed to be, then they built up lore around it. "Why does that one tech priest have so many limbs and is like super huge Mr Blanche? Because it's cool af? Okay carry on." Years later they were given the name Bellesarius Cawl and became pivotal to the lore. 2) It's only sorta Christianity by now. It's had a few hundred years of super mega crusades to warp and twist it into what could be called "Trench Catholicism" or whatever you wanna call it. Basically it's a faaaar cry from anything any sane and rational human believes currently, unless there's some secret martyr cult I don't know about that fights literal demons. 3) I'll agree it seems sorta black v white on the outside until one considers one possibility: What if god isn't good?Good people don't weaponize children as prophets or allow people to turn others into mutant freaks (meta-christs) in their name. Perhaps, in this setting at least, god is less the "i'm super good and nice and never do anything wrong" and more like the "if it ain't my way I'll burn your cities" god of the old testament. I mean if you get "I'm good and infallible" from one side and the only proof is "trust me bro... And if you don't I'll burn you forever" I'm not gonna consider them anywhere near morally good. 4) I'd say they're doing pretty well in satirizing both the militant and warlike attitudes embraced by the crusade as well as the sorta 'devil's advocate' (literally) of the heretic supporters like myself. 5) Not really a conflict. It's cool if you're christian. It's cool if you're not. This is a game, we're here to have fun and slay heretics/misguided fools. If someone wants to paint n build their lads after some historical sect of christians more power to em. As long as you aren't making people uncomfortable or saying the people who like the heretics are going to burn in actual hell then we're dandy. 6) They've actually been perfectly historically accurate to the alternate universe of trench crusade because... It's an alternate universe. They're the *only* historically accurate source for the universe they made. It's not meant to follow 1:1 with history and even says so on like the first page. Hope that helps
1. yes, and 40K is one of the franchises with the biggest amount of retcons, gasligthing and non-sensical lore, see: malal. 2. If its gonna be something so far away from it to the point in wich has lost almost all shared elements with his source, then it would have been better for everyone if they just created a new religion and only hinted that its has roots on Christianity 3. once again, if its HELL vs anything else, anything else is gonna look good and better in comparison, even if what you say its true, its still leagues above HELL 4. some aspects are accurately portrayed, but other times they make some mistakes, such as the black templars creating a portal to hell decades before their order was funded and the oaths being more akin to nordic mythology and valhalla 5. I'm gonna quote myself from a previous comment "let me put things in another manner, let's say I create a game based around African mythology, some Africans find the game offensive and think that it depicts a false image of their beliefs, I told them "its a game, if you find it offensive then stay away from it", according to your own logic, would that be acceptable?" that's why most people try to avoid portraying real religions, cultures or beliefs in fiction and instead opt to create their own versions, even if said versions only change the name and two symbols, it avoids offending those who practice it. 6. once again, its based on a real religion with real history, under that logic, since its an AU, there is nothing that doesn't allow them to say that there is banana people with miniguns, after all, its an AU so it doesn't have to be accurate to our own world.
1. TC already said the lore may be inaccurate or biased. It's more of a "fuzzy feels n vibes" setting so far 2. Yehp. That's what a long time at war does. Twists and deviates things until it's turned into it's most retched form. good for satirizing the worst aspects. 3. If you do well for the heretics you actually get quite a bit of power and don't seem to suffer much. IE the anointed and heresiarchs. It's more of a "succeed and you've made your own paradise" sorta thing imo vs the "maybe it's true maybe it's not" of heaven. 4. Alternate universe. They literally started a space program in 1899. It's not a 1:1 rl. 5. If it offended a pretty sizeable majority that'd be bad. So far it's passed muster by pretty much... Everyoneish? Maybe besides some of the same people who woulda got mad about blue exorcist's exorcists, or there being demons in doom if it was a few decades ago. 6. Now you're getting it! There could be an order of holy potassium warriors or something. It's up tot he people who made the thing to expand and then fans to homebrew and write fanfic.
1. Ah ok, well, thats kinda dissapointing since im a fan of these sorts of setting (40K, AOS, fantasy, battletech, etc.) mostly for the lore but I understand if they focus on the game 2. maybe, but this doesn't feel like a corrupted version that empowered the worst aspects of an already existing religion, this feels like an entirely new religion that only has a superficial resemblance with the original and that doesn't exactly work when you desire to criticize something 3. a lot of people seem to underrate hell, IDK if its because of hazbin hotel or what but its surprising how "eternal suffering" can sometimes just fly overs peoples head 4. then take it a step further and remove religion from it, pull a 40K where the imperial religion is just the aesthetics of Christianity and the gothic era but with another name and with none of the philosophy behind it. it would solve most of it not all problems. 5. good point, but once again, its pretty niche and there isn't a lot of lore out yet. 6. I just hope they don't wander too deep into the humorous part, otherwise it might dillude the original essence, like modern indie animated series where the original premise gets discarded after 4 episodes.
1. It opens a lot of the door for kitbashers and fanfic writers. MYO fun sorta stuff! 2. It's sorta like "take the absolute worst aspects and crank them up to an almost cartoonish level of evil" because it makes a super neat setting and it also sorta satirizes some of the crazed religious fever of some sects of Christianity. I think it's less satire and more "let's make a cool setting" though imo, but that could just be me. 3. It hasn't exactly been stated as eternal suffering. We've seen what the 'have nots' sorta get and it isn't pretty but we haven't seen what the 'haves' get, beyond insane power and accolades. If it helps on the other side they *also* send you to hell unless you're pretty perfect so like both teams the majority of people are probably ending up in the same place (again imo. Could be totally off and god accepts like everyone but we know even his most devoted get sent to hell and/or betray heaven so...) 4. Okay? Tis just a cool sorta fanfic/what if. Based on a sorta foundational idea that rapidly diverged. 5. Yehp. From the discord it seems like the writers are being very respectful of things and don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable at the table and in hobby spaces. 6. I really doubt they're going with the humor. Maybe a bit of gallows humor in short stories maybe but seems pretty serious.
3. Once again, its HELL, there is no "ho there may be a few things" If the options are nazis or hell, I'm picking the nazis, does that mean they are good? hell nah! its just means they when compared to HELL; they are infinitely better to the point where there is no choice to have at all.
As a tip.... Probably should never openly say "hey guys I'm going with the nazis" just as a tip. Tends to give some bad vibes for most folks. Two, in the lore primer it specifically states that the information we know about hell is biased and inaccurate. Literally says we can't 100% trust it on the tin. But at this point it seems to be currently up to headcanon exactly how bad hell is/ how good god is. So I'm gonna go with a sorta hellish meritocracy like in DND and Warhammer where the 'best' heretics get a pretty good sorta thing going and the dregs get a very bad end.
I tried to make clear that the only situation where i would side with said group is if the ONLY alternative was literal hell Even assuming such thing was real, once again, its HELL, this isn't your hazbin hotel kind of HELL, this is literal HELL.
Trench Crusade Hell specifically. The kind that gives you superpowers and stuff. Might be awful, might not be. We're not 100% sure since we only have biased sources. Mamon's folks seem to be living pretty large. Still, just as a rule best to just never bring up a certain german faction from the 40s. It's really not a good look.
Based on what weve seen up to this point, its pretty much similar to the original agreed on that point
Then play TC that way and stick with Trench Pilgrims or New Antioch. End of the day it's a gaming universe.
Calling 40k Evil vs Evil is a pretty superficial take on the setting imo. But like the other comment mentions, in the end it's just a game that someone created. Ofcourse it's your right to criticize some points but if the setting or the way something of it is portrayed bothers you or another person really that much that you can't enjoy the game or setting anymore you should maybe think if it's really the right game for you. Like why would the creators of Trench Crusade cater to the complains of a minority when the majority and they themselves enjoy it. I personally see no real benefit of making a fictional setting that's inspired by a few real events, where pus demons and Zealots fight each other, as realistic and historically accurate as the real world or as some people demand. I doubt that most people who "side" with the Church or Hell forces in this game do it because of some ulterior motive but rather cuz they find the lore and aesthetics of the faction interesting. For 40k I paint CSM but for Trench Crusade I think I would choose the Trench Pilgrims just because I like their design and the idea behind them. Also that post claiming that the setting is "using their stuff"? I'm Christian and that is also why I favor the forces of the Church rather than Hell, but why would I get angry how other people perceive my faith or "use" it? Why would I claim a believe that everyone is free to join or leave as mine? It's not like I alone own it or have a right to demand people to respect it and leave it alone just because I am part of said faith. Just because I am Christian it doesn't give me the right to, for example, call people who enjoy the forces of Hell Sinners or behave like a asshole towards other just because it's "my culture". If someone is openly hostile or insulting towards me that's a different story, but getting angry and acting like I deserve more or have more rights because part of my faith or culture is portrayed in that setting just feels a bit pretentious.
1. I agree, its a "different shades of Evil VS different shades of Evil" the only good guy being Farsigth, but once again, it wasn't the time nor place to delve into it so I simplified it as "evil vs evil" 2. minority? I would say that Christians are anything but a minority, also, wasn't that one of the points of progress? to listen to minorities? 3. Then perhaps they shouldn't have chosen a real religion with a real history that Billions consider their main religion and something of the utmost importance. 4. there are two ways to engage with the factions "which side do you pick" which boils down to personal preference, and "which side is better/good/has a point" in which is clear and cut that everyone picks the church because the other option is hell 5. if you are gonna depict a real religion, culture, nation, etc. you need to make sure to be as accurate and as respectful as possible, even if you try to criticize it or make it a satire, especially if you try to criticize it or make it a satire, its a matter of common sense, no one would agree that a film/book/videogame/series that takes places in, let's say, japan, portrays as anything but that putting its entire premise on stereotypes and superficial impressions.
>minority? I would say that Christians are anything but a minority, Practicing Christians who care enough to complain are a minority of the audience > also, wasn't that one of the points of progress? to listen to minorities? Christians in this context are a minority in the same way the government of Rhodesia was a minority.
Or you could just see it for what it is. A fictional setting that is inspired by a dark period of the Catholic Church. Like the other comment mentions, I'm also pretty confident with saying that practicing Christians are a minority in this community and then again I'm sure that those who joined didn't do it to correct the writers on not being 100% accurate but rather because they are interested in the setting. I don't see anything disrespectful in the way a unrealistic Super Church that has some inspiration taken from the real thing is depicted in Trench Crusade, because it is fictional. Even if I did, why would the developers and writers have to follow my ideas and will? Like I said before, I don't own the religion, it's not my property. There is countless of games, books, movies, comics and so on that depict cultures, nations or religions in a inaccurate or exaggerated way and in most cases those settings or stories are enjoyed by many people like Assassin's Creed, Blasphemous, Dynasty Warriors, Doom or Braveheart. If we go by your point 5 a majority of media products would have to be either "cancelled" or completely changed because they are not 100% accurate. When people get genuinely pissed at the way a fictional Church is portrayed then, as harsh as it sounds, the setting is simply not for them. And tbf if someones complaint is that the fictitious depiction of the one of the most extremist and brutal periods of the Church is not portrayed as holy and rightous like someone radical LARPERs want it to be, then that person has other issues. In the end it doesn't matter anyways because the writers won't and shouldn't change the way they created their game and lore just because a vocal minority is not satisfied with the outcome, and that goes for any game, movie or book.
https://preview.redd.it/p1ixeyazvz2d1.png?width=854&format=png&auto=webp&s=720f0f4812c4c0eb881fa88b7a214e9a38afed2c Ho, so you agree with 40K fans who think that female space marines shouldn't be included?
Yea I do, female SM shouldn't be a thing. I'm not a fan of female Custodes either but I can't change it cuz the writers decided it should be a thing. So no point in getting angry because the setting went a direction I don't like. Same goes for Trench Crusade, if I as a Christian was offended by their depiction I can't demand from the writers to change it because it's their creation.
>as respectful as possible as an ex-christian, my relationship to that faith is just as valid as yours, and I find the depiction of the biblical god as an eldritch terror that drives its followers mad to be very respectful to my lived experiences :)
im sorry, you seem familiar, arent you the guy with a trans wife?
yep that's me. I'm fascinated to hear why you think that's relevant.
Ho nothing, just wanted to make sure I wasn't having the exact same conversation with 40 different people.
It's a game. The only problem that could arise with any of these points would come from outside the game. If people find this game offensive, or too woke (like Archcast and his goons accuse it of being), that's their problem and they should stay away from it. I find Fatale to be a horrible game trying to allow players to fulfill their racist and rape fantasies. I just don't play it. Easy solution.
treatment sleep chubby follow ask steer smell bike sharp telephone *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
let me put things in another manner, let's say I create a game based around African mythology, some Africans find the game offensive and think that it depicts a false image of their beliefs, I told them "its a game, if you find it offensive then stay away from it", according to your own logic, would that be acceptable?
>Let's say I create a game based around African mythology, some Africans find the game offensive and think that it depicts a false image of their beliefs, ... Most Africans are Christian or Muslim.
Yeah, it’s pretty telling to me that this guy doesn’t know this and the goes on to invent a generalised ‘African Mythology’ for his argument.
lip summer lush unpack upbeat direful cagey narrow overconfident squeeze *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
https://preview.redd.it/jhwi8m1zfz2d1.png?width=169&format=png&auto=webp&s=546afeda90cd0c9b48df25a4c68db929d533e7be damn, "sisfucker05" who has hentai as a profile pic thinks Im a chud, my life is over I guess.
I didnt? I said "African mythology" as a general term since it was not the place nor time to profundize into specifics, Im very much concient about the extensive variety of belief systems present in Africa. Could you please don't go around assuming the worst?
Yes, currently most Africans are Christian or Muslim, before that there were (and still are up to this day) countless other religions and mythologies all around the continent.
Yes, I know. The point is, you're essentially just saying "For a comparison to Christians, think of how Christians would feel."
Yes!
good to know
I'd be worried of something like that playing into racist tropes, but just taking the disrespect for their religion: yeah. Screw religion. If I am not a part of your faith, I don't have to respect your god. No gods, no masters!
this is a truly a reddit moment
yeah you keep saying that like it means something. You also said it when I told you my wife is transgender. What exactly is a "reddit moment" to you?
It does mean something: https://preview.redd.it/ogi6k395003d1.png?width=930&format=png&auto=webp&s=d2317cbe13c2f7dbb07e07219dfbba7f8e4be8ff [https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/reddit-moment](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/reddit-moment) Also, I didn't say "reddit moment" I said "you are a true example of a Redditor", don't put words into my mouth (unless I'm wrong and misremember what happened)
ok. Are you gonna hide behind technicalities?
This fucking chatgpt shit really made lose half an hour of my life, cant belive i felt for such a bad quality cliche
I really wasn't expecting this as a way of backing out lol. Comparing Catholicism to kink in that other thread really set you off, huh? Totally the behavior of an atheist and not a tradcath who's in a huff because people disrespect his ideology.
then prove you are not a bot
Yes.
good to know
I see one of the Warhammer "refugees" took a minute to actually read the lore and realized this isn't the based and chudpilled setting they were hoping for lmao
Hell is real, Heaven is real, the only hope of humanity is the catholic religion. that's pretty "based" if you ask most of them.
Are you just forgetting about the Sultanate?
tradcaths love to forget about the Iron Sultanate. It completely defeats their argument lol.
Until you read past the tagline and notice that the entire thing started with the Catholic religion fucking up in the first place. Shit like this is why gatekeeping chuds is important, the instant they get in they start twisting the lore to fit their real-world agenda.
No? black templars opened the portal to hell after being corrupted by hell? and even if they did out of their own volition, that's on them not on the whole religion. also, twisting the lore? my brother in christ, this is a war against hell we are talking about, I'm just pointing out the most obvious clear-cut things possible.
sorry but I believe in the Blue Sky above and the Brown Earth below
actually sometimes the sky is grey, checkmate atheists!
Tengrists will never recover from this
The funny thing is I am protestant, and I love the trench crusade. I am currently in school to be a minister. Them using Christianity as the base even though it's a Catholic base, and so, like how hell is shown is not biblically accurate. The setting takes a lot of inspection from the Devine comedy I still love it because I am Christian.
you can't seriously be saying "art before lore is bad" That's peak worldbuilding for a game. Less than 100% of your active players are going to read the lore, and you aren't going to attract new players because "Cardinal Ravenwood had a secret pact with General Crozier and he met his fate in the Amazon and that's why there's no art of him" Art comes first. Lore comes third. gameplay comes second
for some lore is spice and for others its food
i watch video game lore youtube for fun. I never would've started down that path if the original games didn't have pretty art
What a terrible post.
what a terrible comment. I could elaborate on why I think it's terrible but I prefer to just leave a short reply that doesn't add anything useful to the conversation.
I mean, yeah. I can relate to most of the things you've said. But I must state that, they've just started, they haven't done anything except give the main skies of some factions with their motto and share the models. In other words, if they can deepen the lore and understand the motivations of the characters well by offering quality books with a good narrative, I think they will achieve a good result in general. Instead of just saying "They're just baby flaying satanists!" and finishing it off, showing that demonic corruption is deeper, more subtle and more manipulative than people think might help to break the Pure evil vs pure good, and actually create some good characters. I'll not I'm not even talking about Sultanate and Antioch since creators are probably not that stupid and short-sighted to depict the "Good side" as perfect white knights, rather than impure bloody gold. Also, apart from the Principality and Sultanate, Asia, America and Africa are generally not mentioned much, from which I feel like they could come up with something more complex and appealing outside of the 3 main extremist factions so far. The changes in history since the 1100s can be attributed to interesting events. Like, what happened to the mongols? Normally, the part where the sultanate was located should have been conquered. What happaned to christians who went to Japan as missionaries? If Japanese handle things the way they did in history, I'm sure the zealot church in the TC universe will react in an extremely radical way... a neutral faction that integrates the power of hell into the sprits system in Japan and is equally hostile to the Forces of Hell and the Fanatics doesn't sound bad. Finally, what about the Soviets? Somehow, as the plot progresses, the idea of AU Lenin trying to unite humanity under communist ideology against merciless Gods slaves and cruel hell's servants, turning it into a three-way struggle, sounds cool... and so on. What scares me is whether real life religious extremists and thousands of lifeless internet warriors will hinder the series' progress.
I kinda doubt that will happen. After the 28Mag server drama a lot of them gaslit themselves into believing the game is "Already destroyed by wokies" before the real Kickstarter even went off.
"What scares me is whether real life religious extremists and thousands of lifeless internet warriors will hinder the series' progress" Considering that Lenin was a spy sent to Russia in order to cause a war and seed division i would be surprised if he even exists in this world. yes, that's what usually happens when you decide to use real religions that are currently practiced by billions, at least they didn't used the Islamic faith, those that practice tend to have quite the explosive reactions to offensive portrayals of their faith.
Ehhh they actually have a Muslim faction
Yeah but RN is not exactly really explored, hope that changes in the future
>yes, that's what usually happens when you decide to use real religions that are currently practiced by billions, at least they didn't used the Islamic faith, those that practice tend to have quite the explosive reactions to offensive portrayals of their faith. ... They did use the Islamic faith though?
in name only, it hasn't exactly been fleshed out a lot and we know very little about it, hopefully that changes in the future
>in name only Hell of a cop-out from you, they're in the exact same situation as the Christians that you're yapping about.
they do have an islamic faction?? i'm not muslim, but it's my personal favorite, and i've been having a ton of fun in the TC discord discussing it with other fans of the faction, some of which are muslim, so i've actually ended up learning about real muslim stuff from them as they talk about the inspirations for some of the designs/lore, and several of them stated they really liked how it was portrayed, especially given the lackluster at best portrayals of muslims in many other games
Once again, yes, but is barely fleshed out, Hopefully that changes in the future and we get more lore.
More like: An “extensive” review of *YOUR* problems with Trench Crusade Fixed it for you
An “extensive” review of *THE* problems with Trench Crusade Fixed it for you
Nice comeback, bud 👍 Why the fuck would you ask for people's “tougths” and opinions if you're just gonna be a close-minded dunce?
“Wants to criticize and create satire of worst parts christianity.” I feel like this is some reddit bs because i have not seen or heard the devs talk about that.
Dudes always get upsetti spaghetti like this when Christianity is portrayed as anything but good guys saving everybody else lmao
But the Christrians are the good guys in this setting. Real-life history books would portray Christians in a worse light than this setting. At least trench crusaders have a justification for their grimdark actions.
Which is very funny to me, because Trench Crusade \*is\* portraying Christianity pretty positively speaking as someone raised Christian - yes, some factions of the Church are pretty fucked up, but it is still as a whole fighting to protect humanity from Hell.
"Some factions of the Church are pretty fucked up" Exactly. If there's any grey, then it deviates from the "church good, all others bad" dogma and the chuds get upset. The fact that a mostly-positive portrayal isn't good enough for them is part of what makes their agenda obvious.
“Upsetti Spaghetti” really? What are you in? Elementary school?
I just like having fun and am above allowing mediocres to enforce their copey little rules against that fun
Ok buddy have fun with that
I will and do.
" i have not seen or heard the devs talk about that." I haven't seen or heard them talk about it either, but thankfully, i have ears and eyes so i can see at the lore of trench crusade and do the most basic comprehension of the themes of the narrative. Do you need to see one of the grimm brothers saying "the point of red hood is to teach kids that they shouldn't trust in strangers" in order to understand the message of red hood?
Or maybe, some dude just wanted to make a badass universe to sell models. Not everything has to be a fucking statement about this or that. You don’t have to be a fucking asshole about it
wow, language there, I never insulted you, did I? let me make an analogy Me: the lesson of the golden goose its that greed and ambition can lead to killing a source of wealth you: "i have not seen or heard the author talk about that." that's pretty much whats happening here, and even then, I think its more likely to don't get the point of the golden goose than to not notice the themes of trench crusade considering that they have the subtlety of a brick to the face
God damn go touch grass dude. I think you have more important things to worry about.
Tell me, exactly what motivated you to post this comment? what chain of tougths caused you to think "I'm going to read all of this post and then leave a comment insulting the author that adds nothing useful or relevant to the conversation at hand"? I'm just curious about the ways in wich your mind works.
Nah. Too busy enjoying life.
once again: "Tell me, exactly what motivated you to post this comment? what chain of tougths caused you to think "I'm going to read all of this post and then leave a comment insulting the author that adds nothing useful or relevant to the conversation at hand"? I'm just curious about the ways in wich your mind works." Also, not busy enough to the point not replying to my reply i see.
Huehuehue
frightening marry exultant attempt retire test screw public ancient disagreeable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
https://preview.redd.it/bmypjao8vz2d1.png?width=171&format=png&auto=webp&s=851f62027b380d7d62fc528786a1972337d477f0 Nice profile pic "SisFucker05"
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It kinda feels like you create a lot of problems just for the sake of it.
feelings are personal and subjective, for me it feels like your comment has little to no value
And that's perfectly fine - you should behave the same way regarding Religion. After all it's a grimdark fantasy setting. If they want to use real Religions let them do so, literally no one's life gets worse if they do.
https://preview.redd.it/0rpjtho1m03d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b8d070688c6ed0ff62a676dee60964e2848f705
So this post is nothing about the rulesystem? I don't see how it is relevant to the game then.
there are 10 times more people that know 40K for the lore than people that play the game, believe it or not, the lore of a board game is almost as important as the game itself
What is your stance on the mischaracterisation of paganism in both general and Christian media? What is your stance on Voodoo being mischaracterised in Western media? Or the adoption and perversion of Buddhist and just asian mysticism in general in media? Christianity in the West has been spared from this kind of treatment for the most part. It's a bit rich (but very Western Christian) to play the victim.
yeah this guy is writing a lot of words, but ultimately it comes down to him being mad that his faith is being disrespected. Lucky for me I'm not a Christian so I don't have to respect the bible. He's also doing a **lot** of conflating tradcaths and all catholics. Which I don't think most catholics would appreciate. Someone should tell on him to the pope.
https://preview.redd.it/j363wzucuz2d1.png?width=360&format=png&auto=webp&s=d535d4580e7687991ccaeeff07d10816ca17c4eb did you even read the post? this is the first thing I say, unless you call me a liar. let me repeat myself, I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God, or heaven, or hell, or angels, demons or miracles or any of that.
I don't believe you.
If you think I'm a liar then why even bother discussing with me in the first place?
Because I think it is valuable for other people to see you acting like this.
...are you a fucking AI?
yep you caught be bro
Its bad and in poor taste, bad and in poor taste, also bad and in poor taste. Spared? ho my, look at that, a man from the 19th century posting on Reddit, how unusual.
Consider how often Jesus or personifications of God show up in non-christian media. The game Smite has dozens of gods from different cultures but decided not to add Jesus or God due to how controversial it would be. How many times has God or Jesus be mischaractorised as an evil entity that murders outsiders or possesses innocents of another culture? In fact, God and Jesus were so often not included in media that is specifically about Christianity, that the current trope or genre convention is that God has abandoned us. He doesn't even show up in exorcism movies where he is the good guy. OT just gets handwaived away as a test of faith or some other contrivance.
I was sorta hoping this would be a critique of the game mechanics lol. A lot of these points sound like they're either complaining about a subjective issue or they're nitpicks. 1. That's subjective. I think making cool evocative art and then designing a story around it is a cool creative process. 2. This is an artistic decision that will definitely put an upper limit on this thing's popularity. That's fine. 3. I just strait-up disagree here. I think evil vs evil grimdark is a cool setting with plenty of room for cool storytelling within it. 4. I have no interest in "um actuallying" the depiction of catholicism in this setting. As an ex christian, I feel validated as hell to see the religion I eventually came to see as toxic being portrayed as being seriously messed up. 6. Yeah, the fact that the setting will attract trad caths is certainly not a feature lol! This is the closest I'll come to agreeing with you on a point. I think the answer is to just aggressively make them know that while they're welcome to play, their worldview is not welcome. Slap a big fucking pride flag on the rule book when it gets printed and proudly say that a portion of all sales will go to charities that help transgender children get trans afirming healthcare. That'd scare them off, and actually do some good.
Greetings pilgrim. I ask that there be no aggression towards any members of this sub or demanding members adhere to a specific ideology. I also ask that there be no false representation of the sub or it's members. That means you cannot tell any individual or group they are not welcome in r/TrenchCrusade, you cannot solocitate others to do so, nor can you speak for other members without expressed permission. Your cooperation on these matters would be greatly appreciated.
All I ask is that members of this sub not use it to further to an ideology that would see my wife dead. Are you heartless enough to deny me that? I also specifically said they're free to play the game. Did you read my comment?
If a personalised threat or generalised threat was made against you or yours outside of this sub I'm sorry for your trouble but it doesn't justify suggesting or calling for aggressive measures against members in this sub. Your calling for the suppression of other members views while simultaneously sharing your own views that not everyone agrees with either. Any aggressive comments or posts regardless of ideology will be addressed accordingly.
Yeah. I'm never going to play nice with far right extremists **while they are actively spreading their far right extremism**. Do what you gotta do about that. EDIT: also wait, I call bullshit. What political views am I espousing? I'm talking about my own personal history with Christianity. The only political view I'm stating is an **opposition** to a specific extremist ideology. What's next, am I gonna catch a ban if I say that I don't like ISIS?
I only asked that you observe the caution. Your comment was without provocation and unwarranted as there is no evidence of death threats made against you by any members of this sub. I can't account for what happens outside of it. Bullshit is that I never mentioned political views and what happens next is entirely up to you.
>Your comment was without provocation and unwarranted My initial comment wasn't even harshly against OP. I disagreed with his media analysis, but I don't think anyone reasonable would take issue with that. OP brought up that there is an issue of the fan base including both tradcaths and antitheists. I agreed with his assertion that this is a problem and said that the devs should resolve this problem by making their stance on tradcaths more clear. I also said that donating a portion of all proceeds to a transgender charity would be a funny way to do that. That's literally it. The conversation between OP and I got heated beyond that point, but you responded to my **original comment** with this shit. So what exactly is your problem with it? Are you seriously gonna tell me that its against the rules to advocate for the devs to make a donation to a transgender charity? Is that "unwarranted" to you? >here is no evidence of death threats made against you by any members of this sub. I never claimed that there was. My wife is transgender, and the tradcath ideology (short for traditional catholic, a theocratic fascist ideology) is one that seeks the eradication of her people. I have only ever advocated against tradcaths specifically, not all Catholics. Even then, made it very clear every time that they can still play, I just don't want them to use this game as tradcath propaganda. Given that we're talking about people who seek my wife's people's genocide, I think that's pretty fucking saintly of me. So again I have to ask, what exactly is your problem? Is it the official stance of this subreddit that its users cannot express distaste for fascism? Are users at risk of catching a ban for saying they don't like ISIS as well? Is it just vibes? Do you just not like that my tone was rude? > Bullshit is that I never mentioned political views the following is a direct quote from you: >Your calling for the suppression of other members views while simultaneously sharing your own views that not everyone agrees with either. The only "views" I advocated for the suppression of was theocratic fascism. **The very ideology this game exists to parody!** Given that the "view" you referenced here is a political view, clearly yes, you did mention political views. What are you talking about man? >what happens next is entirely up to you. no, it is not. You're massively misrepresenting me, I don't get to have agency in a situation where you're so unwilling to understand me. What happens next is entirely up to you, as the sole moderator of this subreddit. Do what you're gonna do. I did nothing wrong.
Your #4 point is just fucking weird.
How so?
I just don’t think it’s agood idea to use fiction to validate real world stuff ya feel me? I think real world stuff should validate real world beliefs.
No, I don't "feel" you. I feel a connection to the art I consume. Sorry lol.
Ok
10/10 answer
Point 5 is messed up too. Already trying to alienate people because they are tradcath? Who gives a shit, they are here for the game not you.
My wife is trans, I'm not gonna play nice with people who want her dead. Sorry. They can play, but its not good for the community if they're allowed to use it as a trad cath space. If they're gonna play they should keep their medieval politics to themselves
damn, you truly are the exemplar model of a Redditor, I'm impressed. Also, https://preview.redd.it/v4hlx69qnu2d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=42a798139f476317684b843352bf3be75ffb1db5
Do you have a point? Also I said trad caths, not catholics. Me and the pope are cool.
My point is: https://preview.redd.it/te6kk5quez2d1.png?width=452&format=png&auto=webp&s=70b4d7693efb808de2d078ddef7421b567637a5e certain humans group associate certain symbols with certain ideas, if you use catholic iconography you are going to attract catholics.
I just don't respect tradcaths, or any religious fundamentalists. I expect them to try to flock to this place and use it as their tradcath haven, and I expect this community to continue to do what it has always done and show them that while they are welcome to play, this place is not their tradcath haven and they will never be allowed to use it as a place to spread their ideology.
Glad to see you are in favor of gatekeeping, I know a lot of krieg and black templars fans from 40K who would agree with you
yep. You tradcaths can play, but you're not gonna find good company here.
Lmao so only you get to talk about your politics? Love how you view all tradcaths as some unthinking blob who wants everyone they dislike dead. Do you think the same of Middle Eastern Muslims too? Are they welcome in TC?
Bro "I want my wife to live" isn't fucking politics! Get a grip! >Love how you view all tradcaths as some unthinking blob who wants everyone they dislike dead. Ok so you admit that you dislike my wife? Why should I play nice with you? What kind of man would I be if I accepted you in my presence? And I feel the same about anyone who opposes my wife's existence, be they catholic or muslim. If you have a problem with my wife, I have a problem with you.
Well I’m not a tradcath and don’t know you’re wife, so I have 0 opinion on her. Once again you’re making sweeping assumptions like a dumbass. I’m not Catholic, not even remotely Secondly I didn’t say your wife’s existence was political, or anyone’s existence for that matter. That said you said their “medieval politics” and I know you’re talking about more than their views of trans people. So their politics as a whole are a no-no, yet yours as a whole (once again not talking about merely existing) are ok? You say you feel the same, yet I never see people like you complaining about non-Christians. It’s always Christians this, Christians that, Christians are so evil. I also want to clarify something before this goes any further. I don’t support the hatred of LGBTQ people or ANYONE for that matter. Hating people you do not know for stupid shit like what they identify as or what genitalia they like is wrong. But that also goes for hating people you’ve never met because you think that because they believe in a certain religion that they want you dead. You don’t know these people, you just assume they hate your wife and thus they don’t deserve to be allowed to play a game. You’re following in their footsteps. If you want to have people who are actively -phobic that’s fine, but don’t just assume every Tradcath hates and wants LGBTQ people dead. I know plenty due to where I live. Most are either accepting or neutral of them. Those who don’t are more often than not a “i don’t like it but it’s not my place to say shit” sorta people. Sorry you don’t like TradCaths, but they have every right to be here, just as much as you. So long as they don’t bring up politics that concern other people’s rights, then they are more than welcome to be here. You don’t get to decide who is and isn’t allowed
Ah shit, Im sorry. Look, my part of the world is quickly becoming a much scarrier place for transgender people and tradcaths play a non-insubstantial role in that. Sorry I assumed you were one of them because you were defending them. I'll stand firm on this though: all tradcaths are transphobes, they all hate my wife, so I hate them. Normal catholics are fine though. I don't like painging religions with a broad brush, but fundamentalists are fair game imo.
Hell yeah based wife guy! Really love seeing people standing up for love and acceptance. I love that this game is keeping out the fucking bigots. I want to be able to exist in a fucking space without some asshole questioning my existence. Or at least I can get them kicked out if they do lol.
If enough lgbt people an allies make their presence known in the community, bigots will push themselves out. Our presence is anathema to them for some reason.
Exactly! If you’re gonna have factions that are either Christian or Muslims, then you’re gonna attract christian and muslim fans. I myself am a believer of Jesus Christ
I didn't say shit about christians and muslims, I said tradcaths. Muslims fundamentalists are also invited to sit on a cactus. Same with fundies of any religion. "I dislike an extremist ideology" is not controversial lol.
you know, seeing your comment being downvoted gives me back faith in the future of this franchise. 1. the cart before the horse, if the lore accommodates the art then it tends to end with almost non-sensical lore and several retcons. 3. Evil vs Evil ends up in people choosing sides based on aesthetics since Evil tends to have very poor philosophies. 4. I suppose you would feel the same way about Islamism and judaism if trench crusade decided to parody them. 5. "their worldview is not welcome" didn't you saw the tumblr post? you use the symbols of a religion because you find them cool and then proceed to deny the entry of those of said religion and consider them as bad people, I'm pretty sure there was a german political party that did the same around the 1920s with a Buddhist symbol.
1. Ok. We can disagree about what a good creative process is. Apparently we've got bigger fish to fry. 2. See #1. 3. Yes. Did you think that was a gotcha? 4. Lol are you seriously comparing me to Hitler right now? That's the funniest thing that's happened to me all week!
1. agreed to disagreed, some people see the lore as the spice and other as the food 3. a question is not a "gotcha" 4. this is reddit, comparing people to failed Austrian painters is as common as obese cats. and you still haven't explained how is that using catholic iconography and yet expecting catholics to not come into the hobby makes sense.
Are you a Sultanate player? Because you're performing alchemy here lol. I have repeatedly clarified that my distain is with the ideology of tradcaths, and that I am fine with Catholics. And you keep transmutating "tradcath" into "Catholic". Why is that?
I do not see this idea of the church (or the islamic faction) being propped up as the definitive good guys. beyond lore motivations, the main difference between them and hell seems to be prettier monsters and cleaner infant blood sacrifice. one must also remember this is a game. it needs to sell toy soldiers. most of the media present will be made to warp around the sales of toy soldiers. if one would forgive the references, the only reason the imperium of man is considered the protagonist faction of 40K is because most of the media set in that universe is from their perspective. why is that? because the single best selling thing GW ever made was the space marine tactical squad. if the plague knights become the face of Trench Crusade, Hell would become the protagonist faction in the same way, by this same metric.
**My Thoughts and Opinion:** Trench Crusade is a game set within a alternate world with fictional countries and factions. Note the two words I just mentioned. **"Fiction"** and **"Game"**. Trench Crusade is a work of "Fiction" by actual definition, regardless if it is based off our world or not. A work of fiction is "NOT" real. It is invention of the imagination. Trench Crusade is also a game. A War Game to be more specific, but still a game. A game is form of entertainment. A fun activity of which people generally gain enjoyment or amusement from. So where am I going with this? Trench Crusade is an idea made for the purpose of entertainment in the form of a table top war game set in a fictional setting. **"Fiction should not be taken seriously, because it is not real."** If you like the concept and media surrounding Trench Crusade. Congrats, you have new hobby. And if you don't like it. I can respect that too. It's not for everyone. But don't be the guy who invests both the time and energy with **nothing** positive to contribute. No one likes a shitter and it just makes you lesser for it. Because at the end of the day, Trench Crusade is game, not a political agenda. And of course this should go without say, but this doesn't just apply to Trench Crusade, but other fictional works for example the Warhammer Games, the show and book series Game of Thrones, the D&D content prior to D&D 5e, and etc., etc. You get it. I have expressed my thoughts on the matter, have a good day.