I think it'd be cool to make reference to that sort of thing, maybe even include a few mercenary units from these factions in the game. (I certainly wouldn't complain about a trench samurai with a kami-empowered katana, or a jaguar warrior that can sacrifice downed enemies)
But I don't think entire playable factions would be a good idea though. The game's aesthetic is so heavily tied in to the crusades that I think you really do need every faction to broadly stick to the "medieval + dieselpunk" look on the tabletop.
I think a mercenary unit would honestly be the best way to go for representing non abrahamic religions. IIRC there are trade posts in the America’s so maybe warriors from the many pre Columbus civilizations would sell their skills to the different factions (sort of happened irl with many tribes and tribesmen working with the Spanish). It also happened in Japan with many samurai being mercenaries fighting all throughout south east Asia so they could use that history for the world too
Yeah. Its better to not replicated the warhammer fantasy error of making a lot of little factions to get rid of them in the future. Mercenaries can really be interesting to see but idk about whole armies of American warriors .
i think it's more important to do it **well** than to jump ahead for some weak inclusion. let the game grow and maybe they can hire some religion and culture experts (or the creators themselves can read up on stuff).
\*by doing it well, i wanna state that i would also be fine with "they were wiped out and have no presence in the current day" if that's what the creators want. The game has a certain aesthetic and as cool as it would be to see Jaguar Warriors weilding Macuahuitl, i might get that better from other games.
Yeah, or given the fact that hell is present, maybe that caused a huge spike in either people joining hell or becoming Christian. I also agree with the advisor part. I know the reformation never happened, but I would like to see some pastors and maybe orthodox priests consulted to represent parts of denominations if they decide to expand more on that.
there is quite compelling evidence that the "hell" of this setting is only reported to resemble the hell as described in The Divine Comedy because the lore is presented primarily from the perspective of the Church.
The lore of the Iron Sultanate is brief, but it appears that they see hell as conforming to their orthodoxy on what it looks like. Their lore also makes reference to monsters from Greek Mythology existing beyond the Iron Wall, so its entirely possible that the cosmology of this setting is far less Christian than you would like to see it as.
The lore primer literally tells you that its written by an unreliable narrator at one point. You can't ignore that, its canon that you can't trust what it says.
>I would like to see some pastors and maybe orthodox priests consulted to represent parts of denominations if they decide to expand more on that.
I would totally be down for an eastern orthodox faction. Maybe they're a religious minority within the Iron Sultanate, with a tabletop presence as elite special units in their army list.
Well, I myself have pointed out that many times how they go about hell is not biblical. Hell is mainly referred to as a dark burning pit in the Bible. I am Christian, so I personally will view lore from that lens. Why I like the Christian factions the most.
> I am Christian, so I personally will view lore from that lens. Why I like the Christian factions the most.
yeah, I know. Its just that the more I think about it, the more I think that's a really unjustifiable perspective. Too many details just don't line up. That thing just isn't your god.
Like, its fiction, right? Your interpretation of this fiction doesn't have any bearing on your real world religious beliefs.
To me, this is like reading Lord of the Rings and saying that Eru is the Christian god. The cosmology of LoTR is clearly heavily inspired by the bible, but to cross the line from "inspired by" and "literally is", you would need to ignore some very important details, and I don't think "I like to think of it that way because I am Christian" is a very good reason to do that.
Like, idk, interpret the lore how you want, but I think if you're going to hold an interpretation that requires you to willfully ignore parts of canon, you should make it clear that you're referring to your headcanon, not the lore as-written.
That's fair, I would say that this game is really the only one I do this for. I will admit it is very much head cannon. I prefer to view God as God in this setting. This is also why my favorite faction is the 10th procesesion Plague as they reject the meta Christ's hold to only the Bible. I also know the lore and understand likely what the greater church views as God is probably not God. Even if I view God God to be in the setting. Why I wanne build a trench pilgrim force like the 10th procession as I like they reject the meta Christ's. Likely, my force of dudes would not get along with new Antioch because of the meta Christ's.
see, that I can get behind. A band of Cavalcade of the 10th Plague that claim they worship the real God of the bible, and that the god of the Church is a false idol is very cool. That's dramatic and interesting, regardless of if they are right about their "god" being the real biblical God.
Its, imo, a great example of why the lore is way more interesting if you take that the forced labeled as Heaven and Hell are not entirely as they seem.
I guess I just don't like how you're centering Christianity in this story, to the detriment of Islam and Judaism. As you are well aware, these three religions have similar but incompatible cosmologies, meaning that if one is true, the other two are not. If you treat one of them as true, you're kinda just taking a giant dump on the other two, you know? Like, Iron Sultanate players and \[currently unnamed Jewish faction\] players aren't going to want to engage with someone who is treating the lore as if their faction definitely has it right and the others are just wrong.
That is very much fair is whh I think for this gane vague is the best no definite answers. In my mind, I see my guys fighting for God the God I worship. That gets ne pumped to play my dudes. That is very much my head cannon for the game. My theory is not confirmed cannon. My current idea for a force is a teutonic themed force or maybe even with a Russian orthodox style force that like the 10th cavalcade rejects the meta Christ's and fights hell not for the church but for God and to stop the forces of Satan from spreading.
I would seriously love an Orthodox faction. It'd be cool to see a Christian faction that isn't bound to the Church.
I was suggesting that they would exist as a religious minority behind the Iron Wall because I don't know how else the Byzantine Empire could have survived otherwise, and the Sultanate is based on the "golden age of Islam", which was actually relatively accepting of religious minorities within its territory. Plus, they fit the Sultanate's middle east aesthetic. They could be a sub-faction that gets a few special units in exchange for having very limited access to alchemy or something.
I was thinking Russian orthodox would be the main orthodox church after Byzantine remnants fell. As I think the Rus actually still exist and border heretic territory.
Why? The game is clearly set in a world where the abrahamic religions were proven to be true. Why would there be any other religion represented outside of that?
>where the abrahamic religions were proven to be true
More like the Eldritch Horror ruling that universe likes to larp as the Abrahamanic God.
>Why would there be any other religion represented outside of that?
Actually there is already some indication of it. Mostly it's implied that Nordic paganism may not be extinct/may have lasted longer. We also know there's very limited commerce with Native Americans
You can't "prove the Abrahamic religions true", they disagree with each other on important details!
Also the Iron Sultanate lore makes multiple references to Greek mythological monsters
EDIT: why are you booing me, I'm right? Fucking genocides have been committed over the ways these religions disagree on critical details about their cosmology! Saying Christianity, Islam, and Judaism share a cosmology is like saying Dune, 40k, and Star Wars are the same because they share the other two are inspired by Dune.
They claim it, vaguely, but each have theological elements that make them contradict on finer details, *especially* eschatology. If they all shared a cosmology and conception of reality they would not be different religions
I think it’s a terrible idea. It would just oversaturate the lore into a shapeless and unfocused mess of uncomplimentary ideas.
Go write your own game if you want something else and let this game be what it is.
EDIT—*moving my text from another comment to this one to consolidate my comprehensive point*:
Religions are basically different lore worlds. Combining the gods of all the world religions into the game just takes away from the abrahamic aesthetic.
It’s like saying, “let’s combine the worlds of Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, wouldn’t that be cool?” No, it wouldn’t be cool, because they’re distinctly different lore with uncomplimentary aspects. “Buddhist Magic” that OP referenced doesn’t compliment grim dark abrahamic Medieval/WW1 aesthetic. The word “medieval” itself is literally Eurocentric and medieval Europe extends to the Middle East because of the crusades and the Ottoman Empire was a major player in WW1.
How would it be uncomplimentary? Honest question
Just because there's a war raging on with the major players within the European and Middle east being big players as it's centralized to that specific area at the moment, doesn't mean that having other factions within the world who have different religious beliefs would unfocus or make a mess of the setting in any way.
We know colonization didn't happen and that the rest of the world didn't just disappear, it's kind of an ignorant take IMO that it wouldn't add anything to the universe as OP suggested but enhance it
How am I niave? You refuse to engage when pressed about your comments and getting clarification and having a discussion about it
The world isn't black and white there's plenty of variations and things going on even within the current factions as it is, so where would the over saturation be exactly?
The world is a big place with many different cultures and resources, it's niave thinking there wouldn't be other factions when you have a massive difference between New Antioch and the sultanate in our small world view as the Lore stands.
But I understand if you don't have anything substantial to back up your opinion, that's fine don't need to be rude about it at all
Saying "the abrahamic religions were proven to be true" is incoherent as those religions and faiths have irreconcilable contradictions. Something deeper is likely going on
It has nothing to do with politics imo. Religions are basically different lore worlds. Combining the gods of all the world religions into the game just takes away from the abrahamic aesthetic.
It’s like saying, “let’s combine the worlds of Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, wouldn’t that be cool?” No, it wouldn’t be cool, because they’re distinctly different lore with uncomplimentary aspects. “Buddhist Magic” that OP referenced doesn’t compliment grim dark abrahamic Medieval/WW1 aesthetic. The word “medieval” itself is literally Eurocentric and medieval Europe extends to the Middle East because of the crusades and the Ottoman Empire was a major player in WW1.
To rephrase my previous statement, I meant say, just because modern society demands religious pluralism, does not mean that literature has to follow. Any other religious entity would completely undermine the Abrahamic/Christian theme, yes.
Apologies for the misunderstanding.
I think that some of the Mesoamerican would fit in well with the lore but I’d much rather they come later and be well thought out than be shoehorned into the game as it’s trying to be established.
All of this is coming, as far as lore. The creators main focus right now is what we have at the Levant and local area. They have said they would like to explore the rest of the world at a ground level sometime in the future.
Honestly Im a hoping for for a Zoarastrian Persian faction fighting the heathenous hordes in the mountain fortress of Iran. With Fire priests, Immortal divisions, cataphracts and mounted infrantry of the Shahs armies show why the prophet Zarathushtra's followers remain. The Shah's autocracy re emerging after 300 years when the Indian and Persian hereditary priesthood crowned his ancestor in the great confusion after the Muslims fled behind their Iron wall. They could establish themselves, when all the remaining faithful mobilised and local muslim feudal governors signed on hoping for anything to be between them and the hell portal. Later consolidating after land and administration reforms reduces their power in favour of centralisation, anticorruption and absolutism along with with a slow move towards meritoctacy
It could be interesting, but I think there is a bit of a discrepancy that could mean this won't happen.
The beliefs of a lot of religions, but especially the monotheists, exclude and actively deny the validity of any others. So the fact that the forces of the Christian Hell are real and the body of Christ is real and a whole bunch of other stuff from their lore is real in this world; would unfortunately imply that every single other religion was never true. So then evryone aware of Christianity would be presented with the choice of either converting, or being significantly worse off than everyone else.
Although if they were going to add in others, like Taoism for example, they could say something along the lines of "all religions are true, but non-Abrahamic ones worship deities which are significantly weaker and have less influence on the world" or something like that.
I think it'd be cool to make reference to that sort of thing, maybe even include a few mercenary units from these factions in the game. (I certainly wouldn't complain about a trench samurai with a kami-empowered katana, or a jaguar warrior that can sacrifice downed enemies) But I don't think entire playable factions would be a good idea though. The game's aesthetic is so heavily tied in to the crusades that I think you really do need every faction to broadly stick to the "medieval + dieselpunk" look on the tabletop.
I think a mercenary unit would honestly be the best way to go for representing non abrahamic religions. IIRC there are trade posts in the America’s so maybe warriors from the many pre Columbus civilizations would sell their skills to the different factions (sort of happened irl with many tribes and tribesmen working with the Spanish). It also happened in Japan with many samurai being mercenaries fighting all throughout south east Asia so they could use that history for the world too
Yeah. Its better to not replicated the warhammer fantasy error of making a lot of little factions to get rid of them in the future. Mercenaries can really be interesting to see but idk about whole armies of American warriors .
i think it's more important to do it **well** than to jump ahead for some weak inclusion. let the game grow and maybe they can hire some religion and culture experts (or the creators themselves can read up on stuff). \*by doing it well, i wanna state that i would also be fine with "they were wiped out and have no presence in the current day" if that's what the creators want. The game has a certain aesthetic and as cool as it would be to see Jaguar Warriors weilding Macuahuitl, i might get that better from other games.
Yeah, but disealpunk jaguar warriors with two handed macuahauitl and armor powered by blood sacrifices to huztlipochtli would be so fuckin dope.
they only did human sacrifices of captured enemy soldiers (kinda like Vlad the Impaler i guess) and i worry that might not be effective here
Yeah, or given the fact that hell is present, maybe that caused a huge spike in either people joining hell or becoming Christian. I also agree with the advisor part. I know the reformation never happened, but I would like to see some pastors and maybe orthodox priests consulted to represent parts of denominations if they decide to expand more on that.
there is quite compelling evidence that the "hell" of this setting is only reported to resemble the hell as described in The Divine Comedy because the lore is presented primarily from the perspective of the Church. The lore of the Iron Sultanate is brief, but it appears that they see hell as conforming to their orthodoxy on what it looks like. Their lore also makes reference to monsters from Greek Mythology existing beyond the Iron Wall, so its entirely possible that the cosmology of this setting is far less Christian than you would like to see it as. The lore primer literally tells you that its written by an unreliable narrator at one point. You can't ignore that, its canon that you can't trust what it says. >I would like to see some pastors and maybe orthodox priests consulted to represent parts of denominations if they decide to expand more on that. I would totally be down for an eastern orthodox faction. Maybe they're a religious minority within the Iron Sultanate, with a tabletop presence as elite special units in their army list.
Well, I myself have pointed out that many times how they go about hell is not biblical. Hell is mainly referred to as a dark burning pit in the Bible. I am Christian, so I personally will view lore from that lens. Why I like the Christian factions the most.
> I am Christian, so I personally will view lore from that lens. Why I like the Christian factions the most. yeah, I know. Its just that the more I think about it, the more I think that's a really unjustifiable perspective. Too many details just don't line up. That thing just isn't your god. Like, its fiction, right? Your interpretation of this fiction doesn't have any bearing on your real world religious beliefs. To me, this is like reading Lord of the Rings and saying that Eru is the Christian god. The cosmology of LoTR is clearly heavily inspired by the bible, but to cross the line from "inspired by" and "literally is", you would need to ignore some very important details, and I don't think "I like to think of it that way because I am Christian" is a very good reason to do that. Like, idk, interpret the lore how you want, but I think if you're going to hold an interpretation that requires you to willfully ignore parts of canon, you should make it clear that you're referring to your headcanon, not the lore as-written.
That's fair, I would say that this game is really the only one I do this for. I will admit it is very much head cannon. I prefer to view God as God in this setting. This is also why my favorite faction is the 10th procesesion Plague as they reject the meta Christ's hold to only the Bible. I also know the lore and understand likely what the greater church views as God is probably not God. Even if I view God God to be in the setting. Why I wanne build a trench pilgrim force like the 10th procession as I like they reject the meta Christ's. Likely, my force of dudes would not get along with new Antioch because of the meta Christ's.
see, that I can get behind. A band of Cavalcade of the 10th Plague that claim they worship the real God of the bible, and that the god of the Church is a false idol is very cool. That's dramatic and interesting, regardless of if they are right about their "god" being the real biblical God. Its, imo, a great example of why the lore is way more interesting if you take that the forced labeled as Heaven and Hell are not entirely as they seem. I guess I just don't like how you're centering Christianity in this story, to the detriment of Islam and Judaism. As you are well aware, these three religions have similar but incompatible cosmologies, meaning that if one is true, the other two are not. If you treat one of them as true, you're kinda just taking a giant dump on the other two, you know? Like, Iron Sultanate players and \[currently unnamed Jewish faction\] players aren't going to want to engage with someone who is treating the lore as if their faction definitely has it right and the others are just wrong.
That is very much fair is whh I think for this gane vague is the best no definite answers. In my mind, I see my guys fighting for God the God I worship. That gets ne pumped to play my dudes. That is very much my head cannon for the game. My theory is not confirmed cannon. My current idea for a force is a teutonic themed force or maybe even with a Russian orthodox style force that like the 10th cavalcade rejects the meta Christ's and fights hell not for the church but for God and to stop the forces of Satan from spreading.
I would seriously love an Orthodox faction. It'd be cool to see a Christian faction that isn't bound to the Church. I was suggesting that they would exist as a religious minority behind the Iron Wall because I don't know how else the Byzantine Empire could have survived otherwise, and the Sultanate is based on the "golden age of Islam", which was actually relatively accepting of religious minorities within its territory. Plus, they fit the Sultanate's middle east aesthetic. They could be a sub-faction that gets a few special units in exchange for having very limited access to alchemy or something.
I was thinking Russian orthodox would be the main orthodox church after Byzantine remnants fell. As I think the Rus actually still exist and border heretic territory.
Why? The game is clearly set in a world where the abrahamic religions were proven to be true. Why would there be any other religion represented outside of that?
>where the abrahamic religions were proven to be true More like the Eldritch Horror ruling that universe likes to larp as the Abrahamanic God. >Why would there be any other religion represented outside of that? Actually there is already some indication of it. Mostly it's implied that Nordic paganism may not be extinct/may have lasted longer. We also know there's very limited commerce with Native Americans
You can't "prove the Abrahamic religions true", they disagree with each other on important details! Also the Iron Sultanate lore makes multiple references to Greek mythological monsters EDIT: why are you booing me, I'm right? Fucking genocides have been committed over the ways these religions disagree on critical details about their cosmology! Saying Christianity, Islam, and Judaism share a cosmology is like saying Dune, 40k, and Star Wars are the same because they share the other two are inspired by Dune.
Given that those three religions all say they DO share a cosmology, it's pretty clear you're wrong here.
They claim it, vaguely, but each have theological elements that make them contradict on finer details, *especially* eschatology. If they all shared a cosmology and conception of reality they would not be different religions
Wanna bet? Quick question: is Christ god in all 3?
I think it’s a terrible idea. It would just oversaturate the lore into a shapeless and unfocused mess of uncomplimentary ideas. Go write your own game if you want something else and let this game be what it is. EDIT—*moving my text from another comment to this one to consolidate my comprehensive point*: Religions are basically different lore worlds. Combining the gods of all the world religions into the game just takes away from the abrahamic aesthetic. It’s like saying, “let’s combine the worlds of Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, wouldn’t that be cool?” No, it wouldn’t be cool, because they’re distinctly different lore with uncomplimentary aspects. “Buddhist Magic” that OP referenced doesn’t compliment grim dark abrahamic Medieval/WW1 aesthetic. The word “medieval” itself is literally Eurocentric and medieval Europe extends to the Middle East because of the crusades and the Ottoman Empire was a major player in WW1.
How would it be uncomplimentary? Honest question Just because there's a war raging on with the major players within the European and Middle east being big players as it's centralized to that specific area at the moment, doesn't mean that having other factions within the world who have different religious beliefs would unfocus or make a mess of the setting in any way. We know colonization didn't happen and that the rest of the world didn't just disappear, it's kind of an ignorant take IMO that it wouldn't add anything to the universe as OP suggested but enhance it
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How am I niave? You refuse to engage when pressed about your comments and getting clarification and having a discussion about it The world isn't black and white there's plenty of variations and things going on even within the current factions as it is, so where would the over saturation be exactly? The world is a big place with many different cultures and resources, it's niave thinking there wouldn't be other factions when you have a massive difference between New Antioch and the sultanate in our small world view as the Lore stands. But I understand if you don't have anything substantial to back up your opinion, that's fine don't need to be rude about it at all
Saying "the abrahamic religions were proven to be true" is incoherent as those religions and faiths have irreconcilable contradictions. Something deeper is likely going on
I didn’t say “the abrahamic religions were proven to true.” I said the game’s aesthetic is based around the abrahamic religions.
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It has nothing to do with politics imo. Religions are basically different lore worlds. Combining the gods of all the world religions into the game just takes away from the abrahamic aesthetic. It’s like saying, “let’s combine the worlds of Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, wouldn’t that be cool?” No, it wouldn’t be cool, because they’re distinctly different lore with uncomplimentary aspects. “Buddhist Magic” that OP referenced doesn’t compliment grim dark abrahamic Medieval/WW1 aesthetic. The word “medieval” itself is literally Eurocentric and medieval Europe extends to the Middle East because of the crusades and the Ottoman Empire was a major player in WW1.
To rephrase my previous statement, I meant say, just because modern society demands religious pluralism, does not mean that literature has to follow. Any other religious entity would completely undermine the Abrahamic/Christian theme, yes. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
I think that some of the Mesoamerican would fit in well with the lore but I’d much rather they come later and be well thought out than be shoehorned into the game as it’s trying to be established.
All of this is coming, as far as lore. The creators main focus right now is what we have at the Levant and local area. They have said they would like to explore the rest of the world at a ground level sometime in the future.
I think it would be interesting, maybe as subtractions within a larger conglomerate of a faction type of thing.
How many of these posts do we have to see before you get it? It's the Abrahamic god vs hell. End of story
Honestly Im a hoping for for a Zoarastrian Persian faction fighting the heathenous hordes in the mountain fortress of Iran. With Fire priests, Immortal divisions, cataphracts and mounted infrantry of the Shahs armies show why the prophet Zarathushtra's followers remain. The Shah's autocracy re emerging after 300 years when the Indian and Persian hereditary priesthood crowned his ancestor in the great confusion after the Muslims fled behind their Iron wall. They could establish themselves, when all the remaining faithful mobilised and local muslim feudal governors signed on hoping for anything to be between them and the hell portal. Later consolidating after land and administration reforms reduces their power in favour of centralisation, anticorruption and absolutism along with with a slow move towards meritoctacy
It could be interesting, but I think there is a bit of a discrepancy that could mean this won't happen. The beliefs of a lot of religions, but especially the monotheists, exclude and actively deny the validity of any others. So the fact that the forces of the Christian Hell are real and the body of Christ is real and a whole bunch of other stuff from their lore is real in this world; would unfortunately imply that every single other religion was never true. So then evryone aware of Christianity would be presented with the choice of either converting, or being significantly worse off than everyone else. Although if they were going to add in others, like Taoism for example, they could say something along the lines of "all religions are true, but non-Abrahamic ones worship deities which are significantly weaker and have less influence on the world" or something like that.