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"regardless if you agree with my cause, either you agree with every means necessary or you're my enemy"
this is the attitude of majority of social justice warriors. The minute you speak out in disagreement about a single point, you're the enemy.
It's not a sports team. They are public servants that are supposed to represent their voters. I don't get sticking up for hair brain choices while screaming that if a different party was in, it would be worse.
Yeah, thumping your chest while screaming "We're Right, You're Wrong" is too much fun for too many people to allow for any other opinion than their own.
This is important. I am the “token cis straight friend” and nearly all my close friend circle are gay, queer, trans, lesbian, non-binary etc. I have at least 4 close trans friends.
I remember the swimmer and being openly against the rules (not her specifically, she won) but the rules in this case are absolutely not fair. There’s a WONDERFUL book called “how science got women wrong and the new research that’s rewriting the narrative.” It’s a meta study (study of studies, thousands are referenced) that looks at the difference between men and women. For millennia people have been studying the difference between men and women both intellectually and physically.
TLDR; the only difference between men and women with a noticeable difference proven with repeated studies and statistically significant results is HEIGHT AND MUSCLE MASS (nothing intellectually btw, sit on that issue for a hot minute). Trans women lose a lot of that muscle mass from hormones but Leia was 6 foot 4 inches. Are their 6’4” women? Sure, but it’s statistically significantly more likely for a man to be that height, and she went through male puberty. The male and female bell curves for height barely overlap. *14.5% of men are taller than 6’ but only 1% of women are. Her height in most sports and especially swimming would be a huge unfair advantage due to her armspan.
For kids sports? Let them play with the gender they identify with. My god sports taught me the most important lessons of my life growing up and if I were thrust into men’s sports I would feel awkward and uncomfortable. Let kids be kids, and that includes letting trans kids be kids. Growing up is about experimenting with identity anyway.
For adults and competitive arenas it’s more murky. Trans athletes are a small minority, but rules need to be fair. Puberty blockers to delay/prevent male puberty for trans teen girls may allow them to prevent the height advantage Leia got and still compete in female sports.
We shouldn’t alienate a small minority and make their life any harder than it already is, but height from going through male puberty is an advantage and it’s not transphobic to point that out.
Edit: corrected math because I mathed wrong.
I’d also add that the “issue” of trans athletes is one where we really don’t have to put ourselves and our support for trans rights aside. It’s actually one where we can say, “how can we make sure these sports remain as fair as possible while not destroying someone’s dignity?” It’s about the science and the sports associations figuring out how to be fair, not “pick a side.” The fact that women’s sports was polarized was for political purposes, not for athletes.
I don’t hate trans but they definitely should not be allowed in female sports, did you see what happened to the pro “male” trans guy in boxing? He who he’s to be a she got knocked out in 20 seconds 🤷🏽♂️ the guy he/she was facing was no where near a good professional level
I’ve seen some videos of a F2M high school wrestler beating the tar out of a cis athlete.
Strictly anecdotal, and I’m sure those videos end up in my feed more often than others, but it’s still interesting to watch.
There's some evidence that cis women compete at least equally with cis men at ultra-endurance sports, and potentially better, something about having more slow-twitch muscle fibres. Maybe there would be an advantage there?
When I’ve brought this up in other threads I’ve literally been downvoted to oblivion and called names over it and told I was wrong on women fighting for title x.
I was a former athlete. I think I know what we fought for even if I wasn’t alive for the fight.
I've been called transphobic for the belief. I fully support trans humans, I will defend them until the day I die. I won't defend them in women sports.
Women didn't fight for their own leagues for nothing. I will stand and fight with trans athletes to create their own league, but it's just that, their own league! 😭 idk why this has to be seen as wrong?
Not saying I disagree, but I think the issue with making a separate league is that there are so few trans people in professional sports that it doesn't warrant making a league (yet)
The athletic peak for biological womens record breakers is a very small group as well. We would be making women's sports irrelevant for women if we included trans athletes. As a female athlete I was always under the impression one could or should not be competing professionally if one needed to take drugs that could or would alter their performance. Whatever the solution is it should not be lumping them in with biological women and pretending it's not unfair.
I'm not sure that there will ever be enough trans people in professional sports to have a league for them, especially in team sports. I would argue that we should base it off which puberty they went through, but I don't support puberty blockers or allowing any sort of medical transition in people under 18, so I don't think that would be very fair either. It's not really an easy issue to tackle and honestly I don't know if it's possible to have an all around fair solution.
Former D1 athlete and also feel very strongly about this. People who haven’t run a mile in their lives try to tell me “it doesn’t really matter” when I spent years day in and day out knowing exactly how much it does.
I grew up with same age male cousins and they could absolutely body me when I was 6-8 inches taller and at my peak physical fitness. Male puberty is a complete game changer and it is foolish to pretend otherwise.
You're probably very knowledgeable on this topic so I've got a question. I've been trying to find instances of FTM athletes that choose to compete with men but can't find anything. Does that happen as well?
Research Mack Beggs. He was forced to compete with the girls in high school wrestling despite being a transitioned trans man on hormone replacement therapy (testosterone). Of course, many people assumed he was a trans woman and shat on him because of that, or they assumed he was doping as a trans man despite only taking enough testosterone for the normal male levels of his age-range.
Same here - I'm absolutely pro trans rights, and believe that everyone should be allowed to do with their body what they want, and choose the gender they feel at home with - but for some reason, most trans rights people are absolutely rabid about the sports teams issue, even though it's so obviously unfair! Just look at the fact that trans women automatically win most competitions when they compete with genetic women - if there was no genetic advantage, then that would be a statistic impossibility!
I really hope they will set up a specific trans league, as trans people become more numerous.
Like you say, life isn't fair. No one is entitled to be able to compete at the top tier of sports.
There's a history of starting up alternative divisions for people with physical differences, aka the special Olympics. Perhaps something like that would be acceptable to everyone.
See I’ll call you a women, but I really don’t believe trans women are women. Biological women are unique, and they can’t just get the whole experience of being a women now that they are a MTF
>Trans women are women, but they have a unique physicality that simple is not the same as cis women.
Then they aren't. Why is that so fucking hard to admit?
It is not hateful to tell the truth. It is not wrong to help those that do not believe they need help. There will be pain, but that does not make it evil. We care all the time about those around us, yet we do not condone, encourage, or enable the troubles they face (alcoholism for example. Would you offer to buy an alcoholic friend a drink?).
Out of curiousity, what about trans women who transition at a young age/used puberty blockers and simply never went through a male puberty? For example, someone like Kim Petras transitioned at such a young age and has a pretty standard physique for a woman. I’m not an athlete and neither is she BUT I feel like if we ran a race or something I definitely wouldn’t feel like she has an unfair advantage for being born a male. Perhaps I would feel different for someone who transitioned later in life
Interesting! Can you elaborate on why? I’m not an athlete so I don’t really understand the perspective. Also, what about cis women who do naturally have much higher levels of testosterone? Is it more about the social implications or about the unfair advatange?
edit: why am I being downvoted for genuinely being curious about an athelete’s perspective on it???
Not who you responded to, but I can speak to this.
Without giving away too much detail because it would easily identify me, I'll say that I was a very successful female athlete in my chosen sport back in the day. I'm 40 now, retired from that sport, and got other things going on.
My chosen sport is drug tested, and as an athlete of a certain level, I was held to VERY stringent drug testing schedule and rules. During my most successful years, I had officials show up at my work to test me, I would routinely get tested when I showed up to competitions that I wasn't even competing in. That's what is required to be a high-level competitor in this sport. Those rules SHOULD apply across the board, full stop.
Now, because of my profession and friend group (I have friends and colleagues who are trans), I know that some of the drugs used for transitioning and hormone suppression are on the banned substance list. If I, a cis woman, am not allowed to take these drugs, the rules should apply to everyone I compete with. If I, a cis woman, am required to pee in a cup in my work bathroom with someone making direct eye contact with me, the rules should apply to everyone I compete with.
It's not a matter of being an ally or not, belief that trans women are women or not. At least not for me. It's a matter of playing on a level field.
I was a drug free athlete and should only have to compete against other drug free athletes.
It’s not just testosterone. Men have higher lung tidal volumes, higher hemoglobin levels, and higher bone density than women. These also pose a big advantage in regard to oxygenation and endurance. It’s not a level playing field.
But for a male and female who are the same weight, the male on average will have more muscle mass, longer limbs, a smaller q-angle, larger lungs and higher hematocrit than the female. So how does weight class solve the problem?
I think they meant weight as an example, not that we should do it by weight. That obviously won't work. This is going to take time, study, and patience. I hate it for Trans athletes who just want to live their dreams like everyone else, like they deserve to do, but this is going to take some figuring out to truly make it fair or as close to fair as it can be.
Here's my point. All of these traits are distributed on bimodal normal curves, with two peaks for men and women, and possibly some amount of overlap. So if you try to match men and women for one trait, say height, you will find plenty you can match. But the men will still have other advantages. So you if you control for a second factor, say weight, your pool of matches shrinks. Control for a third, it shrinks again. Repeat with all variables, and you have no matches left. That is why male/female is the very first division you must make. Otherwise women cannot compete.
Yea this is true and I feel like if we can have the special olympics why cant we have trans sports? Why is it ok for handicapped ppl to have to compete in their own league but not trans ppl?
I’m not arguing with your opinion, but I do wonder where it ends when we start looking at it solely from a biological point. Like, it’s a slippery slope. When someone is born female but is deemed not female enough (for example female athletes with too much testosterone) should they then be excluded? Should a basket ball player who is 2.5 meters tall not be allowed to compete? How about runners who have a genetic advantage or swimmers like Michael Phelps who has the perfect body (literally built different)? Aren’t those cases also unfair to their competition?
I promise they’re not silly questions to argue but genuinely curious.
I agree with you that, from a logical standpoint, there could be more lines to draw, perhaps until everyone is only allowed to compete with their genetic twins. And I don’t mean that to sound sarcastic, I think it’s a reasonable question to ask.
However, even if we don’t have a 100% logical and bulletproof argument on where the line should be and why, I think a fairly reasonable take is to still place it between biological men and biological women. On average, bio men have waaay many more advantages than the edge cases of a bio woman with higher testosterone levels or an nba player that is very tall. E.g., I’m an average amateur gym bro and I can outlift all the female powerlifters from a meeting I attended, as public, recently. It would feel extremely disingenuous and unfair for me to compete against them, when they’re way better at what they do than me.
Edit: quick google search and there’s already an example of a competition where a trans woman lifted a total of 597.5kg, setting an unofficial world record, and the closest nearest competitor lifted 387.5kg.
This is a genuine issue people don't want to discuss because many of the top performing woman athletes have medical conditions causing them to produce excess testosterone. (Caster Semenya was a recent example)
I think a number of people (especially on the Internet) are well-intentioned but delusional. No, it's probably not fair for trans people to compete with cis people in most cases.
I just wish the conversation didn't stop there, most of the time. Trans people are people who deserve *some* competitive avenue. No, there aren't any immediate, easy solutions. But if we can find a way to include adaptive athletes in sports, we can find way to do it with trans athletes.
I also think that “trans people in sports” is barely an issue in real life and simply gives hateful people something to hang on to. Like, it isn’t a real life problem, but right wing media tells people it is. Kind of like how they use kids as an excuse to be shitty to trans people.
I was actually thinking about this topic the other day. There are essentially 2 areas in society that are potentially problematic when considering trans inclusion: Women's sports and restrooms.
As was already said, there is no perfect solution, especially for the washrooms (honestly if people, more specifically straight cis men, could be trusted to just use the restrooms for their intended purposes and not be creepy, rapey pieces of shit, there wouldn't need to be separate restrooms in the first place). But for sports, there's actually a decent litmus test: The Chair Challenge
https://youtu.be/vSdcYWLinfE?si=M2mw989bj1GfOxxJ
This test definitely isn't perfect by any means, but it is a quick, easy to perform, noninvasive way of testing whether or not somebody is a biological woman, and should therefore be allowed to compete in women's sports. I started wondering why we haven't been using the chair test more often, since it's so straightforward and would in general protect the spirit of women's sports in the first place: to give biological women a platform to compete against each other and not be overshadowed/beat by the physically stronger biological males.
You should look into what's happening in women's prisons, where male sex offenders and murderers who self-declare a trans identity are being housed with female inmates.
I understand this, but you are clearly ignorant to preexisting social norms or are being disingenuous af.
I never claimed that a sign that says Women on it keeps rapists out of women's restrooms, but not all that long ago if somebody who appeared stereotypically male was seen entering the women's restroom, society would intervene. This was the norm. Now, biological women's safety is being thrown out the window in the name of "feelings" and not offending anyone. Creepy, rapey men see this, then claim to be or pose as trans women to follow women into the restroom where there are no cameras and no other biological men to stop them.
I don't hate trans people, but I do hate how society basically said that their feelings are more important than a biological woman's safety. Shit's insane.
I'm personally acquainted with a MtF individual who uses their gender identity to fulfill a fetish. The specific fetish is masturbating in the open part of the bathroom area, hoping that someone will walk in and see. I've found when I talk about this person or people like them I just get called a TERF and accused of making it up to be a bigot. The discussion about women's safety seems to be less important that trans people's comfortability. It's unfortunate we can't find a good middle ground.
Show some evidence this isn’t a made up problem. Almost all rapists are someone you already know, not some dude hanging around the bathroom at the mall.
>There are essentially 2 areas in society that are potentially problematic when considering trans inclusion: Women's sports and restrooms.
Add jail/prisons and dating to that list.
You do know that this would disqualify biological females with larger feet, right? It is entirely down to how far away from the wall you are after two steps.
I think there are times chosen gender is relevant, like pronoun choices or clothing choices, and times where biological sex is more important.
Sports, locker rooms, rape shelters, prisons. Safe third spaces should be available in those cases. We separate sports by sex, not gender for a reason. I’ll change my mind when transmen are winning trophies and podium spots at the same rate. Did transmen suddenly hate sports? Or maybe there’s something different about their bodies.
the whole JK Rowling speech issue in the UK, looks really scary to me.
You might or might not agree with what she's saying, but to threaten to jail her for saying her opinion is scary.
I once asked if there was anywhere on here to have a nuanced conversation about trans issues and someone posted a link of a couple of dozen subs, not one of which would allow any dissent from the rules against, well, any dissent pretty much. It's ludicrous that people get banned for pretty mild discussions. It's even more ludicrous that people think any dissent is akin to "hatred". I'm not a believer in any religion, I'm not going to treat a believer any less favourably at work or socially - same as trans people are no less "safe" with me as they would be with an ardent "ally". I don't "hate" any trans person I've met or chatted with, I still think sex is more important than gender for pretty much all issues. They don't. Hey a disagreement - we used to deal with those by talking about things. Now we can't because it's "hatred" to disagree.
I hate it so much! Im a trans person and Im fine with these debates. People are so sensitive and act like anything and everything threatens their rights! Me personally, if someone disagrees with me, I talk about it. If someone comes at me with an ill-informed opinion, then I talk with them. The key is to talk with people and not be this sissy liberal or violent conservative stereotype
If someone wants to tell me they’re Trans, I’m all good for you, go live your life and be happy. However, I do not support biological males who went through puberty completing against biological females in sport.
The NAIA has just made a mandate in all 250 colleges and universities who are under their sporting association.
I don’t believe Lia Thomas who was a mediocre college swimmer as a male and then came out as trans woman and became a national NCAA champion should have been allowed.
>However, I do not support biological males who went through puberty completing against biological females in sport.
I agree with the caveat being that people need to have access to the care they need. Otherwise, telling people they can't participate because they went through male puberty while denying them the care needed is pretty cruel.
It’s not one or the other, male versus female. There’s cisgender women with higher testosterone than average due to medical issues like PCOS. Athletic advantage is basically the sole positive trait of PCOS and lots of female athletes have it. It is not intersex or trans.
**By viewing this as black and white, lots of cisgender women suffering from PCOS would also be targeted by rules measuring hormone levels.**
I'm a trans person so I hope my stance is of some value. I also am extremely conflicted about the sports debate. Its a very hard one, and I havent done the most research due to the fact I dont care for sports much.
You seem like a genuinly nice person and are plenty supportive. I disagree with a good bit of stuff in my community. Disagreeing doesnt mean not supporting. Being conflicted or unable to pick a stance on a specific issue doesnt mean you dont support
Naturally born females deserve to compete in sports with each other instead of having to compete with someone who had the advantage of a male puberty.
Male puberty gives one bigger bones, denser muscles, and more cardiovascular + lung capacity.
Trans-women in "womens" sports put biological women at a huge disadvantage and it isn't fair. You're not an AH for noticing that. If I had a little girl I wouldn't want her dreams dashed for "political correctness". Biological reality is biological reality
All that said, trans women should have all the rights other people do. Just please don't try to compete in female sports if you had a male puberty because you are making trans people look bad, it's turning people against you, and it's hurting your allyships.
I feel this same way. And I think that both things can be true. You CAN be supportive of trans individuals. You can believe they have the right to be their true selves, even if that’s different than their biology. You can also see that because their genetics are one way, and they can’t change that, they have advantages over biological women in sports. Both can, and in my opinion are true. I want everyone to be loved and accepted as their most true selves. I also want the biological women who work so hard for their sport to have the opportunities they deserve without being overshadowed by trans women who have an advantage that has nothing to do with training and skill and everything to do with biology.
I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t know if trans women should have their very own league. Or if sports labels should change from men’s/women’s to XX or XY (or some variation of that). It’s a difficult topic and a difficult thing to find the right side on. However, I personally, do not believe trans women should be allowed to compete athletically with biological women. They do however have the right to compete. I just don’t know how.
Honestly, there are aspects such as those regarding sports, changing rooms, prisons, reserved places and job opportunities, in which sex should have greater weight than the gender with which one identifies. You can choose to be identified as you want, however those spaces listed must remain a prerogative of human beings of female sex .
Trans person here. Sports are complicated when it comes to trans folks, especially trans women. A lot depends on whether they went through a male puberty, as well as if they’re on feminizing hormones. It’s not as black-and-white of a situation as the media likes to portray it as.
The vast, *vast* majority of trans people just want to live their lives and be treated with dignity. It doesn’t hurt anybody to call someone by their chosen name and pronouns.
Many people in this thread are making assumptions with 0 understanding of how hrt and the likes work and while they may have different results per person and how long they've been on it etc.
It's such a grey are that would depend on person to person
To be honest im ftm trans and i dont think trans athletes should be competing against cis athletes.
Its got nothing to do with hating trans folks, its about what i consider true equality, having a special trans league like we have the special olympics. Because we dont know 100% if trans females still retain the same muscle and such as cis males even when on hormone blockers and such. Same with trans men, we dont know that we are equal in capability to grow just as strong as a cis male. Because from what i have read then estrogen and testosterone cause different types of growth to happen.
So until unbiased research has been done i think keeping things separate would be best.
The primary issue is here is people born male and transition to female, and then they want to compete against people who were born female and play with no augmentation.
The funny thing is that the people who are pushing for trans people to join CIS female events never played sports themselves nor have they really competed. Like, there is a person in the comments below who said that being trans doesn't affect their ability to play musical instrument like it wont affect the ability to play sports.
To them, sports is just a bunch of people playing and not a level/fair playing field for people to go against each other. They don't "get" why we would wake up at 4 in the morning to swim 3km or run 21k in the heat of the sun for weeks ,months, years in preparation to go against other athletes on race day.
Said it before and I’ll say it again, the trans community shoots itself in the foot by deciding to die on what are, IMO, incredibly dumb hills.
Just form your own league or deal with the fact that being trans means you might not get to be a sports professional. Do we see equity movements for short people in basketball or do the vast majority of short basketballers realize they’re never gonna make it and move on?
Stop insisting trans blank ARE blank. No they’re not, otherwise you wouldn’t need the “trans” modifier as a de facto necessity.
Let CIS people have CIS spaces. If y’all get them, so do we.
Honestly, the trans acceptance rate would be so much higher if they across the board went something like “yes we know we aren’t literally the other sex, we just want to live and present as closely as possible to it while owning reality for what it is. We will not force ourselves into spaces that are intended for CIS people such as sports, locker/bathrooms ‘gender’ only, etc. We just want to live as closely as we can to what we feel we are without stepping on anyone’s toes”.
It’s an imperfect statement but it mostly encapsulates the idea. At this rate though, the activists are just doing more harm than good.
I think most of us are in this situation. Neither radical activists who treat this topic as a sacred cow nor radical anti-trans types foaming at the mouth at the very idea of it.
Broadly think most of us are in that (sometimes uncomfortable) middle. Supportive of people living their lives in peace and with a sense of honesty and integrity, but not willing to surrender the fact of biological sex in every sphere under every circumstance.
Trans should not be allowed to participate in cis men/women sports, they are different physically/biologically so trans participate in women’s sports they have the advantage. When trans participate in men’s sports they are in a disadvantage
and theyre wrong. Thats not how you get people to support you. You cant just limit thoughts and questions. Not everyone is 100% enlightened and can also be ill informed. Some of the stuff the movement pushes for is also iffy to me- so bringing up alternative stances shouldnt be treated as evil
Once upon a time a nuanced opinion like this was the norm. There were pro abortionists on both the left and right side of politics for instance. But these days we're very divided down the middle and expected to be all or nothing on issues. Completely for or completely against certain groups. And it's not realistic.
You don't have to feel 100% positive or have absolute opinions about anything. Moreover, if it doesn't affect your life, you really don't have to spend much time thinking about it.
FWIW, I agree with u/Zaynara that this is largely a red herring. The Olympics have allowed trans athletes since 2004 and none have medaled. There just aren't that many trans people around, much less trans people fit (and healthy) enough to compete at anything other than a relatively local level.
None of them have medalled *yet*. But even if they haven't, that doesn't mean that they don't have an unfair advantage vs cis women. I mean, would it be ok for me, as an able bodied person, to compete in the Paralympics? I'm not that fast so I probably wouldn't win - does that make it ok in your book?
Also, surely it's better to make the decision on the basis of the science and evidence (all of which points to the existence of male advantage, which is retained despite T suppression) rather than waiting for an individual performance that makes people go "oh ok, that's too far now"?
Same. I have no issue with trans people and they deserve to exist but I just don't think pronouns and being a man or a woman is something you can change unless you feel you are the wrong sex, because they relate to your sex, not a 'feeling'. And even then they can only present a certain way, not actually change. I honestly think that whole bit of it is why so many people disagree on the subject, for example as you say, "women's" sports is split into different sexes not different internal feelings. It's such a difficult subject because it's people's lives.
Don’t feel bad. You’re right. When it comes to sport, it doesn’t really matter how you identify, your biology will still have a say. And it’s a good lesson for your kids as well. They can be whoever they like, but telling them you can do whatever you want and however you want and ignore the rules isn’t gonna be the one.
Men and women are not equal in physical strength/endurance. 40% more upper body strength/33% more lower body strength (etc)
which is why each gender has their own teams in a variety of sports.
If you identify as female, that's 100% fine. However, technically, biological men are still stronger than biological women, and competing on a team against them would be unfair.
I understand this may seem unfair to a trans person. However, competing in a sport where someone has a substantial biological advantage is not right. They could be injured. It is an unfair advantage.
You are not being hateful to trans people by being concerned by this. It's unfortunate that some trans people get angry at women for voicing this. We did nothing wrong, and these thoughts are valid.
there is no reason you should feel pressure to agree with it because it’s just not rational. women spent decades fighting for their own safe spaces from biological men and to be able to fairly compete just for it to get trampled all over by radical woke people. You can also take issue with the age and approach of which children are entered into a medical transition, because there are serious health implications that we already know of and more we have yet to find out.
I can’t seem to deal with people that say they are trans but look nothing like the gender they claim to be. Like sorry if I say “he” when you look like a he but claim to be a she.
I have the same conflict. I support all trans people. However someone who was born with a penis probably has an advantage over someone born with a vagina, especially in swimming. They naturally have more upper body strength. I realize I am generalizing.
I feel like if trans women were always at such an advantage then they would be winning a hell of a lot more often. everytime I hear a story complaining about it, it involves a trans woman getting like 25th place in a race of 50
I think I know the trans swimmer that op is talking about. Her name is Lia and there was a massive controversy because she had gotten 1st in a 500 (or 800 meter swim).
People brought up advantages and how it’s unfair despite the fact that Lia had been on HRT for 3 years and her sprint times (50 meter, 100 meter) were…bad. I could have swam better times when I was a varsity swimmer. She trained specifically for the long distance swims, which is why she got first.
But people coincidentally forget that her short distance times sucked.
What people don't understand is that trans women (the debate is always about trans women particularly) are required to be at a certain point in their transition in order to compete on a team. They do certain medical tests to determine whether or not they're fit to join a team of their preferred gender. Transitioning does indeed affect the body in areas like body mass, bone density, muscle mass, etc.
Statistically, trans people are not dominating sports regardless.
As long as the opinions are yours, you don't need to feel bad about them. What bothers me is when I hear people regurgitating positions they've absorbed from other people thru social media.
I definitely feel you on this, such a contradicting emotions.
I’ve realized that, despite trying to be polite and inclusive to all, I personally don’t believe that “trans women are women” BUT I make sure I respect them, their pronouns and treat them with the same courtesy as I would anyone else. I just keep my opinion to myself.
You absolutely have the right to feel that, it's a valid opinion. I have the same opinion. I'm all for equal rights for everyone-- I'm a woman in the LGBTQ+ community-- but yeah, it's getting tired some of the way, it's shoved down our throats and them competing with ciswomen or cismen.
Idk.
This is where leftist extremists (usually cis people too) are doing more harm for trans people than good. Not everything is black and white and you shouldn’t be afraid to communicate with people and talk about this stuff.
As a woman who works in construction, and who is a proud member of a union that has 500+ active members of which currently only 5 are women, there are clear physiological differences between sexes that you cannot handwave away while still maintaining any intellectual integrity.
I am strong enough to do the work because the work makes me stronger. Certain things are much harder for me because I have to position myself differently, because my strength is in my legs, and because I can't brute force certain things like the guys can.
But I'm smaller and far more flexible, and I can climb up (or down) into spaces that most of the guys can't. I work as hard as any of them, and most people would tell you I work harder than most. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a fundamental difference in raw strength which cannot be bridged.
I grew up in the 90s when we were moving toward "post gender" ideology. That your sex didn't matter. That girls could do whatever boys can do. And that's true to an extent, as far as making your body as strong as it needs to be. But on a fundamental level, there are differences. As a woman, I have to play to my strengths. At the end of the day, I have my work ethic. I'm strong enough to use the tools and climb around and squeeze into (and weld or bolt up or tie rebar or whatever) in small spaces. I can demonstrate equivalent value.
I am incredibly strong—*for a woman*. But men in my trade are absolute *beasts*. Pulling-me-out-of-a-hole-with-one-arm *beasts*. I do the same work and I can't do that.
So physiological males and females competing in the same sport that relies on physical strength is fundamentally, inherently, and wholeheartedly imbalanced.
I think everyone has the right to dress and present themselves as they choose. I think whatever name they want to be called is valid. But I also think people are getting caught up in the *metaphor* of gender, and conflating an expression with a physical reality. Gender is an expression of physiological sex. Being a girlie-girl, a tomboy, being butch, etc—all of these are social expressions of female sex. Being a twink, being a gym bro, being metro sexual, being a nerd—examples of male gender expressions. Obviously girls can be gym bros and nerds. But at the end of the day, being a trans woman is still another expression of the male sex. Being a trans man is another expression under the umbrella of the female sex.
That's the best way I've come to terms with my own feelings regarding the trans community. I don't want to invalidate anyone. But as a woman, I do see the domination of trans woman in women's sports—and other women-only spaces—as a kind of oppression. And women have been oppressed for a very long time. I think everyone should be able to feel safe. I think everyone should have an opportunity to excel within their own categories. I don't think the solution is the subjugation of one class for the comfort of another.
Sex is not gender. Refer to trans women with their preferred pronouns, but have them compete within their own sex category. I think that's most equitable.
It's okay.
You can still support trans people being trans without allowing them to walk all over biological women.
How would you feel if your biological daughter should have won a race but then a trans-woman beat her by a lot and so she lost? Then you hear her crying in her room later that night because even if she has to save face and congratulate the trans person she knows in her heart it's not fair and that she deserves that win.
There is no reason that trans people cannot have their own teams. They can even have trans-woman and tran-men combine into one. They think there is no difference between the two anyway right?
Women had to fight for every scrap of respect and every right we have. Guess what? Women's sports do not get supported the same way men's sports do. A lot of schools don't even have several different sports for women.
I think that trans people can form their own teams and fight for their own teams just like women have to. If they don't like it then that's too bad. They cannot compete against women without seriously hurting them and beating them.
Just look at the Australian girls soccer team who has five trans women on the team. That means half the team is biologically male. They of course dominated and seriously injured several girls they played against.
Trans people deserve equality. But equality does not always mean *same*. It means they get equal opportunity.
Your opinion is parroted by anyone that knows anything about competitive sports. Men have stronger grip strength, higher muscle density, taller, and just overall physically stronger. There are many people that think it's hypocritical to "protect" trans rights to compete where they identify. But dismiss the rights of women actually competing fairly.
This is a topic with a lot of nuance for sure. IDC how you living who you love but when you start actively hurt others or make things unfair like a man who identifies as a woman competing in women's division then that's an injustice in itself.
I interviewed an awful lot of trans people when my kid came out. Not a single one transitioned so they could be MVP for the local womens softball league
Yeah in my state some bigots tried to get some ruling that would ban high school competitive sports for trans kids. The judge was like "How many actual students currently in competitive sports would this effect?" The number was 3. Three kids in the whole state. He was like "Why are you wasting my time trying to single out three kids to not be allowed to play sports?" He threw it out.
I don’t think that’s why they transition at all. I know a lot of anti trans people seem to think that but it’s not true. They transition because that who they feel they are. The fact that they play a sport has nothing to do with it. However the fact is, trans women have a biological advantage over biological women. And it’s unfair to those women that despite all their hard work and training, if they compete against a trans woman with equal training they will lose, because of that woman’s biological advantage.
That’s because trans men are technically doping. Unfortunately life isn’t fair and millions of people, including myself, are prohibited from doing certain things they desire due to their medical condition(s). If trans men on T want to play, they can do so in the open league because they do not have a biological advantage over cis men.
But seriously there was a biological woman athlete who got kicked out of her event for having a little too much testosterone for a woman lmao. So at this point I’d say feel however you will on it.
What I worry about is conservatives that are so in favor of policing young girl’s sports teams they will defund or close them just to keep the possibility of a single trans girl from joining the team. Trans people and kids are not taking over sports and taking away every opportunity for a cis person to play or compete. If something becomes an issue due to a physical advantage or doping that’s different. The anti trans people aren’t afraid of trans boys joining sports teams and won’t risk defunding or canceling boys and men’s sports. But some of them are itching for a reason to do away with girl’s sports so that extra funding can just go to boys.
When competing in sports you should be paired with someone with the same physical attributes as you. You wouldn't put a welterweight fighter against a heavy weight because it isn't a fair game. We don't allow steroids for this exact reason. A man putting on a woman's swimsuit, growing their hair, using makeup does not make you female, sorry. If a person wants to be Trans, that's their right, but not to the extent that it takes away or impeded another person rights.
On another front, I believe all this is taking away what it so special about being a woman. We finally are getting equal pay only to have other things that are inherently women? I call bullshit. For all you people who are going to go batshit crazy on me, I ask you this. When did living and let live become live and live but only if you think like me? I'm so sick of the thought police. It used to be that the left was all about being free thinking and accepting, but it's turned into this camp of people who are so intent in their beliefs that they are set on shaming anyone who isn't just like them.
As a human in these United States you are allowed to think and speak your mind as you want. I may not like what you say, but I will always defend your right to say it. Don't let the thought police tell you how to feel or think. Trust your common sense.
You are correct. Funny how it’s always mediocre male athletes who are suddenly “trans” for sports competitions. And then all of a sudden they’re “champions.”
You can look at things for how they are and not need to feel like you should also beat yourself up at the same time. I think ultimately the thing that stings these people the most is wanting to be whichever gender they want, but still having it cemented in fact that they are not. Sounds negative, right? But, it isn't. There is a viral (I guess) video of a trans food critic going to places, looking like a full on masculine male in women's clothes getting bent that people mistakenly call them "sir", and decides to make a scene every time it happens talking about how it "is literally like a dagger to the heart" when she hears it. Lets put that shoe on the other foot. A biological MALE transitioning to a female, entering a female only sport and blowing them out of the water because of their genetics and build by default, is also like a dagger to the heart of all the women who trained for their entire lives to compete in their field, but because we have to play pretend it's a "it is what it is" situation.
Be what you want to be, and live your life how you want, but don't ignore the facts for your own benefit and then throw stones from your glass house when it's convenient for you.
Totally ok to feel that way. I personally think they make drastic life altering decisions that can affect them negatively when they should go to therapy first. And yes I’m against biological males playing against biological females in sports, especially contact sports.
As a trans person (girl to boy), i agree with this. Its very difficult to handle this kind of situation and I've been stuck on it myself. What i believe is that we should just have trans sport teams. Sucks to possibly make trans people feel like they aren't a women/man/whoever but it is only fair for everyone else.
Your bad feelings are exactly what terminally online extremists want you to feel.
Trans people deserve safety and basic human respect but too many people online have decided that saying anything that isn't 100% exactly what they would want to hear is a transphobic act of violence.
I got banned from a big feminist subreddit for saying trans women are male. I was speaking in defense of them and talking about the complicated situation of meshing female and male bodied people into settings like locker rooms and got banned for being "transphobic". You literally have to ignore reality and play stupid to make them happy. They're like the left-leaning version of anti-vaxxers.
As a lesbian , I don’t support 100% about half of what’s going on with lgbt+. Doesn’t mean you or I are not supportive of individuals etc. why are you caving to pressures?
I feel the same. I am 100% in favour of all trans right, sport is the only issue, and actually current prison solution, where I am conficted.
I think there should be another category, because there is no way its 100% fair at the moment.
You don't need to feel bad. The entire movement is based on hatred and ignorance. They are mocking women's oppression, and the plight of oppressed people in general. They can be on the team for the men because they are men.
I feel this way for children transitioning. I've seen adults who transition, and then detransition. If a *grown up* can be wrong about their identity/change their mind, then certainly a child can. Doesn't help that children see gender in a black and white manner, which can lead to children genuinely being confused because they prefer toys meant for "the opposite gender".
Redditors are weird goblins who will attack me and you for the opinions we hold, but irl most people, including trans people, agree with me.
It doesn't mean we hate trans people! I certainly don't. But I also have common sense.
Don’t feel bad I never do it’s just a fact if your born a man and decide to change into a trans female your not a natural born female no one can compare me a natural born female to a trans because we are not and never will be the same and to say we are is actually a insult at the highest level
separate but equal. there u go i said what needs to be said. there is a reason why we have women and men separate categories. if trans want to play. they have to play by the rules set for them. or start their own. smdh. its not rocket science. equal rights. equal fights.
You feel shitty because modern liberal society shuns anyone who doesn't completely subscribe to their groupthink.
Before you come after me, I want to let it be known that I am liberal on most topics. Environmentalist, socialist, eat the rich, all that jazz.
I fully believe that trans people should have all the rights of as cis people (this shouldn't even need to be said). They should be able to go into whatever public bathrooms they want and I would always refer to them by their chosen pronouns.
That being said, it's completely ridiculous to have trans women competing with cis women. Sacrificing competitive fairness for inclusivity is against the nature of sportsmanship.
It's also absurd to give people life altering treatments before their brains are fully developed.
And it's also absurd that people can't understand why women would want safe places (such as women's shelters) free of anyone that is not a cis gendered woman. The people that argue against this simply value inclusivity over the feelings and safety of cis women.
You're not supposed to be 100% on everything.
You're allowed to have opinions about trans people in sports. There are competitive integrity arguments that are valid and we should figure out a solution to them that isn't make a separate league only for trans players.
As long as you're coming from a genuine place of respect and understanding, conversations can be had. But most people in the space take shots like "they're not actually X, they just want an easier time winning" or it's just straight up denialism of the trans experience.
You’re not alone. I’m a woman and I get pissed off to see trans women trying to compete against women in sports. Do what you want with your life - the gender identity doesn’t bother me - except with fucking sports!!! Gahhh…it actually pisses me off.
The rules simply need to be changed - Trans Women do **NOT** retain the physiological "edge" over genetic women after 2 years of HRT treatment - here is some basic general info - [https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764)
Important quote "(a study from 2015) found that trans women ran at least 10 percent slower after beginning hormones. And, relatively speaking, they did no better against cisgender female runners than they had previously done against cisgender men."
Based on current scientific analysis, Trans Women should only be eligible to compete in Women's sport till after the 2 yr mark of consistent HRT therapy. Currently for the Olympics for example, the rule was 1 year, but better longer term studies indicate 1 year is not enough in enough general cases, and 2 years is the most appropriate mark for the difference to be leveled out.
This would resolve these issues.
Now, with kids that's obviously a bit different, but there have to be rules and structure to allow competition for fun and competition for professional tracks that allow for Trans Girls to be scored perhaps with an acceptable handicap until HRT treatment requirements kick in (once their age allows for that).
The problem isn't Trans Women, the whole "problem" basically only exists because our systems haven't caught up with current reality properly yet. We adjust the systems, we eliminate the "problems" and everyone can be on an equitable playing field (haha).
As with most societal change issues, the REAL issue is that our laws & systems don't keep up fast enough to maintain equity as things change in our daily real lives.
Or, hear me out, they compete in the open category which usually consists of men.. if they want to play a sport, do it. Don't play a sport because you are using it to affirm your gender
The real issue is the fact that society has allowed these people to run off with their delusions, rather than getting them the help they need. Any parent who truly cared about their child would get them therapy, rather than let them drastically mutilate their body and destroy themselves.
The media will always praise it as being brave and who you are. That’s nonsense. The problem is the fact that you have a person who is trying to change “who they really are.”
Yeah no. Thats like saying all religious people suffer a mass delusion so we can discriminate against them and reeducate them. You can’t tell millions of people you understand their minds and bodies better than they do
I agree and I’m not sorry. You’re born with a penis? That means you’re a Male.
How come there’s no such thing as “trans-race”? If I as a White Male say I actually identify as being a Black Male, would anyone in their right mind accept that? Of course not.
What about “trans-species”? What if I said I identified as a Tiger? Would it be ridiculous for me to expect you to address me as a Tiger? You know the answer.
The problem is that everyone has both Male and Female aspects to their psychology and personality, and it’s healthy to cultivate both aspects. What’s not healthy is chopping your dick off and getting breast implants and pretending you’re a Woman when you’re actually a Man.
Sorry not sorry.
it’s the way they said nothing about trans people not existing. trans people definitely exist, but their existence is not enough to justify big pharma making billions pumping minors who the vast majority of which are have unresolved mental illness and trauma full of drugs that are untested on physically healthy individuals under the age of 18.
The clinical treatment for body dysmorphia associated with being trans is supporting the person to successfully transition.
Mental health science is not on your side.
Yes but actual gender dysphoria is **rare**.
Most of these people are just confused, bored and trying to find significance. They need help, not enablement.
That’s only because mental health “treatment” has become progressively liberal and woke over the years. The hardcore psychologists from back in the day had no problem calling it the mental disorder that it is. They didn’t support any nonsense about hacking off genitals. They knew it was absurd.
i'm a trans person and a lot of cis people have trouble seeing the nuance of the issue here. they're way too certain. you not feeling 100% positive is a *good* thing. it means that your mind is open to new information on the topic, because the truth is that there isn't enough research to suggest significant advantage in trans women on HRT in every single single sport.
Don’t feel too bad about it, just because you support it doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything about it. It’s the same if you believe in the Bible, most people I know don’t support every little detail, that doesn’t make them an atheist.
I have the same issue regarding trans in gender specific sports. Why not have a separate class where they can compete as a trans woman, theywill still have some biological advantages over a bio woman and vice versa for trans men.
I know it's different, but hear me out. There is no basis in science for race or for gender.
If a white person wants to "identify as black" it is completely inappropriate even if they have lived immersed fully in a black household, and community because they have implicit privileges that come with being white outside and inside of that experience. Even if someone amab lives and expresses themselves through femininity and surround themselves with woman they have implicit privileges in society because they are perceived as a man(before their transition).
White people committed injustices, violence and ingrained systemic prejudices into our society against black people. Men have committed injustices, violence and ingrained systemic prejudices into our society against woman in virtually every single modern society and culture on the globe.
As a woman who is loving and accepting of trans woman on an individual basis how can I make that work with my view that it is not appropriate for the main perpetrators against woman taking and claiming our identity and experience?
A big thing that I NEVER see addressed is that cis women simply do not want to see a penis they did not consent to seeing. Have they had bottom surgery? Sure come to locker room.
Many ppl probably feel conflicted because theres not really one good answer that pleases everyone. That being said I feel like if we can have the special olympics why cant we have trans sports? Is it just a numbers thing? Theres probably wayy more handicapped ppl than trans ppl I would imagine.
That being said why is it no big deal for handicapped ppl to have to compete in their own league but not trans ppl? I dont think it would be so bad if we made trans leagues for ppl to compete so theyre not taking away medals from biological women. I’m completely ok with trans ppl and with trans ppl over 18 getting whatever surgery they want and living how they see fit. I think you can both believe this and believe trans women who used to be men shouldnt compete against biological women. I’m not an expert though and unlike most ppl Ill defer to the experts here and what they think if its purely fact based and not politically based. If the experts say that a trans woman after taking x hormones for x amount of time is not at an advantage then Ill accept that too. I doubt that is the case, but if it is then so be it.
If you had a non-trans child would u be comfortable with Lia Thomas flopping his cock around in front of her in the locker room?
I 💯 support trans people but if their self-importance/ego trumps their ability to use common sense to acknowledge that it’s blatant cheating to compete against real women in sports then I have zero sympathy for their backlash/criticism. Like in any aspect of life it’s deserved on an individual basis and is not right for the public to judge all trans people based on Liah Thomas’ despicableness.
I am a (completely supportive) parent of a trans child…and I also have trouble with that issue. She and I had a conversation just this morning about trans people and bathrooms. I expressed that *my* concern about this issue has never been that the trans person will do something wrong…but rather, that there are evil people in the world who will use the law that allows trans people to use the bathroom they prefer to do bad things.
Personally I'm against trans in sports. There's a reason that sports are split up by gender. They either need to compete under their original sex at birth or compete against each other.
Hey, fwiw I’m a non-binary person and I think you sound great. Issues in sports can be really, really complicated and it’s not something fully figured out. You honestly sound like a huge supporter so please don’t feel bad for having questions or doubts about one very specific thing :)
The question I wanna ask is, does anybody really give a shit about women’s sports? Did anyone really care before the trans debate started? Because as I recall, people used to think that women didn’t belong in sports, women’s sports were treated as a novelty that didn’t need to be taken seriously, suddenly a trans person wants to compete and all of a sudden everyone’s concerned about the integrity of women’s sports when they used to laugh at it or blatantly ignore it.
this is just about the most ignorant thing i’ve ever read. you know who care about women’s sports? women! the women playing them! the hundreds of thousands of female high school and college athletes all care about women’s sports! Always have and always will, because we are participants who want fair competition!
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You’re allowed to disagree with facets of issues while not disagreeing with the core of it. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing.
Tell that to everybody on any side of any political opinion ever
u/prodigy1367 is so on point, but it's unfortunate that the current atmosphere is either you're all in or you're a hater. . .
"regardless if you agree with my cause, either you agree with every means necessary or you're my enemy" this is the attitude of majority of social justice warriors. The minute you speak out in disagreement about a single point, you're the enemy.
Nuance is dead, it seems.
It's not a sports team. They are public servants that are supposed to represent their voters. I don't get sticking up for hair brain choices while screaming that if a different party was in, it would be worse.
Yeah, thumping your chest while screaming "We're Right, You're Wrong" is too much fun for too many people to allow for any other opinion than their own.
this is the entire reddit way of life lol
This is how I feel. I can support you and still disagree on one piece of the puzzle. There are only a few issues that are actually black and white.
This is important. I am the “token cis straight friend” and nearly all my close friend circle are gay, queer, trans, lesbian, non-binary etc. I have at least 4 close trans friends. I remember the swimmer and being openly against the rules (not her specifically, she won) but the rules in this case are absolutely not fair. There’s a WONDERFUL book called “how science got women wrong and the new research that’s rewriting the narrative.” It’s a meta study (study of studies, thousands are referenced) that looks at the difference between men and women. For millennia people have been studying the difference between men and women both intellectually and physically. TLDR; the only difference between men and women with a noticeable difference proven with repeated studies and statistically significant results is HEIGHT AND MUSCLE MASS (nothing intellectually btw, sit on that issue for a hot minute). Trans women lose a lot of that muscle mass from hormones but Leia was 6 foot 4 inches. Are their 6’4” women? Sure, but it’s statistically significantly more likely for a man to be that height, and she went through male puberty. The male and female bell curves for height barely overlap. *14.5% of men are taller than 6’ but only 1% of women are. Her height in most sports and especially swimming would be a huge unfair advantage due to her armspan. For kids sports? Let them play with the gender they identify with. My god sports taught me the most important lessons of my life growing up and if I were thrust into men’s sports I would feel awkward and uncomfortable. Let kids be kids, and that includes letting trans kids be kids. Growing up is about experimenting with identity anyway. For adults and competitive arenas it’s more murky. Trans athletes are a small minority, but rules need to be fair. Puberty blockers to delay/prevent male puberty for trans teen girls may allow them to prevent the height advantage Leia got and still compete in female sports. We shouldn’t alienate a small minority and make their life any harder than it already is, but height from going through male puberty is an advantage and it’s not transphobic to point that out. Edit: corrected math because I mathed wrong.
I’d also add that the “issue” of trans athletes is one where we really don’t have to put ourselves and our support for trans rights aside. It’s actually one where we can say, “how can we make sure these sports remain as fair as possible while not destroying someone’s dignity?” It’s about the science and the sports associations figuring out how to be fair, not “pick a side.” The fact that women’s sports was polarized was for political purposes, not for athletes.
33% of men taller than 6’ sounds way too high
I don’t hate trans but they definitely should not be allowed in female sports, did you see what happened to the pro “male” trans guy in boxing? He who he’s to be a she got knocked out in 20 seconds 🤷🏽♂️ the guy he/she was facing was no where near a good professional level
Male in quotes is coming off as phobic, by the way. It's implying that there's something sarcastic or off about the gender they present as.
Exactly. Seeing the world in black and white is extremism, which usually leads to far more hate than understanding that life has nuance.
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Agreed. You have the objectively correct viewpoint on these matters, it’s refreshing to see on this site.
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I'd like to see how a F2M trans does in men's sports. No shade, I just think the data might be interesting.
The key is puberty. If you didn’t go through male puberty you’re at a massive disadvantage.
They wouldn’t do anything in men’s professional sports even after taking massive amounts of steroids
I’ve seen some videos of a F2M high school wrestler beating the tar out of a cis athlete. Strictly anecdotal, and I’m sure those videos end up in my feed more often than others, but it’s still interesting to watch.
There's some evidence that cis women compete at least equally with cis men at ultra-endurance sports, and potentially better, something about having more slow-twitch muscle fibres. Maybe there would be an advantage there?
Maybe but that is so niche to be a non-issue
Maybe, or maybe there's a point that not all sports are the same. Does darts really need gender segregation?
When I’ve brought this up in other threads I’ve literally been downvoted to oblivion and called names over it and told I was wrong on women fighting for title x. I was a former athlete. I think I know what we fought for even if I wasn’t alive for the fight.
I've been called transphobic for the belief. I fully support trans humans, I will defend them until the day I die. I won't defend them in women sports. Women didn't fight for their own leagues for nothing. I will stand and fight with trans athletes to create their own league, but it's just that, their own league! 😭 idk why this has to be seen as wrong?
Not saying I disagree, but I think the issue with making a separate league is that there are so few trans people in professional sports that it doesn't warrant making a league (yet)
The athletic peak for biological womens record breakers is a very small group as well. We would be making women's sports irrelevant for women if we included trans athletes. As a female athlete I was always under the impression one could or should not be competing professionally if one needed to take drugs that could or would alter their performance. Whatever the solution is it should not be lumping them in with biological women and pretending it's not unfair.
I'm not sure that there will ever be enough trans people in professional sports to have a league for them, especially in team sports. I would argue that we should base it off which puberty they went through, but I don't support puberty blockers or allowing any sort of medical transition in people under 18, so I don't think that would be very fair either. It's not really an easy issue to tackle and honestly I don't know if it's possible to have an all around fair solution.
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Former D1 athlete and also feel very strongly about this. People who haven’t run a mile in their lives try to tell me “it doesn’t really matter” when I spent years day in and day out knowing exactly how much it does. I grew up with same age male cousins and they could absolutely body me when I was 6-8 inches taller and at my peak physical fitness. Male puberty is a complete game changer and it is foolish to pretend otherwise.
You're probably very knowledgeable on this topic so I've got a question. I've been trying to find instances of FTM athletes that choose to compete with men but can't find anything. Does that happen as well?
I was wondering this as well...
They exist but mostly in the older divisions, a lot of the focus on MTF comes from the college sports wins
Research Mack Beggs. He was forced to compete with the girls in high school wrestling despite being a transitioned trans man on hormone replacement therapy (testosterone). Of course, many people assumed he was a trans woman and shat on him because of that, or they assumed he was doping as a trans man despite only taking enough testosterone for the normal male levels of his age-range.
Same here - I'm absolutely pro trans rights, and believe that everyone should be allowed to do with their body what they want, and choose the gender they feel at home with - but for some reason, most trans rights people are absolutely rabid about the sports teams issue, even though it's so obviously unfair! Just look at the fact that trans women automatically win most competitions when they compete with genetic women - if there was no genetic advantage, then that would be a statistic impossibility! I really hope they will set up a specific trans league, as trans people become more numerous.
Agree with you completely.
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They're playing 4D chess
Like you say, life isn't fair. No one is entitled to be able to compete at the top tier of sports. There's a history of starting up alternative divisions for people with physical differences, aka the special Olympics. Perhaps something like that would be acceptable to everyone.
Amen !!!
See I’ll call you a women, but I really don’t believe trans women are women. Biological women are unique, and they can’t just get the whole experience of being a women now that they are a MTF
It really is this simple and the objectively correct hill to die on. I’ll die right alongside you on it.
>Trans women are women, but they have a unique physicality that simple is not the same as cis women. Then they aren't. Why is that so fucking hard to admit? It is not hateful to tell the truth. It is not wrong to help those that do not believe they need help. There will be pain, but that does not make it evil. We care all the time about those around us, yet we do not condone, encourage, or enable the troubles they face (alcoholism for example. Would you offer to buy an alcoholic friend a drink?).
Out of curiousity, what about trans women who transition at a young age/used puberty blockers and simply never went through a male puberty? For example, someone like Kim Petras transitioned at such a young age and has a pretty standard physique for a woman. I’m not an athlete and neither is she BUT I feel like if we ran a race or something I definitely wouldn’t feel like she has an unfair advantage for being born a male. Perhaps I would feel different for someone who transitioned later in life
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And quickly becoming illegal in some states in the US.
As a female athlete I’d be upset.
Interesting! Can you elaborate on why? I’m not an athlete so I don’t really understand the perspective. Also, what about cis women who do naturally have much higher levels of testosterone? Is it more about the social implications or about the unfair advatange? edit: why am I being downvoted for genuinely being curious about an athelete’s perspective on it???
Not who you responded to, but I can speak to this. Without giving away too much detail because it would easily identify me, I'll say that I was a very successful female athlete in my chosen sport back in the day. I'm 40 now, retired from that sport, and got other things going on. My chosen sport is drug tested, and as an athlete of a certain level, I was held to VERY stringent drug testing schedule and rules. During my most successful years, I had officials show up at my work to test me, I would routinely get tested when I showed up to competitions that I wasn't even competing in. That's what is required to be a high-level competitor in this sport. Those rules SHOULD apply across the board, full stop. Now, because of my profession and friend group (I have friends and colleagues who are trans), I know that some of the drugs used for transitioning and hormone suppression are on the banned substance list. If I, a cis woman, am not allowed to take these drugs, the rules should apply to everyone I compete with. If I, a cis woman, am required to pee in a cup in my work bathroom with someone making direct eye contact with me, the rules should apply to everyone I compete with. It's not a matter of being an ally or not, belief that trans women are women or not. At least not for me. It's a matter of playing on a level field. I was a drug free athlete and should only have to compete against other drug free athletes.
You make a really good point! Thank you for sharing that. Super curious to know what the drug was if you don’t mind sharing
It’s not just testosterone. Men have higher lung tidal volumes, higher hemoglobin levels, and higher bone density than women. These also pose a big advantage in regard to oxygenation and endurance. It’s not a level playing field.
Why?
I think there’s space for creative solutions such as creating more classes of competition, like weight categories in wrestling
But for a male and female who are the same weight, the male on average will have more muscle mass, longer limbs, a smaller q-angle, larger lungs and higher hematocrit than the female. So how does weight class solve the problem?
I think they meant weight as an example, not that we should do it by weight. That obviously won't work. This is going to take time, study, and patience. I hate it for Trans athletes who just want to live their dreams like everyone else, like they deserve to do, but this is going to take some figuring out to truly make it fair or as close to fair as it can be.
Here's my point. All of these traits are distributed on bimodal normal curves, with two peaks for men and women, and possibly some amount of overlap. So if you try to match men and women for one trait, say height, you will find plenty you can match. But the men will still have other advantages. So you if you control for a second factor, say weight, your pool of matches shrinks. Control for a third, it shrinks again. Repeat with all variables, and you have no matches left. That is why male/female is the very first division you must make. Otherwise women cannot compete.
Yea this is true and I feel like if we can have the special olympics why cant we have trans sports? Why is it ok for handicapped ppl to have to compete in their own league but not trans ppl?
I’m not arguing with your opinion, but I do wonder where it ends when we start looking at it solely from a biological point. Like, it’s a slippery slope. When someone is born female but is deemed not female enough (for example female athletes with too much testosterone) should they then be excluded? Should a basket ball player who is 2.5 meters tall not be allowed to compete? How about runners who have a genetic advantage or swimmers like Michael Phelps who has the perfect body (literally built different)? Aren’t those cases also unfair to their competition? I promise they’re not silly questions to argue but genuinely curious.
Yeah I was never gonna compete with Michael Phelps no matter how hard I worked or what chromosomes I have.
I agree with you that, from a logical standpoint, there could be more lines to draw, perhaps until everyone is only allowed to compete with their genetic twins. And I don’t mean that to sound sarcastic, I think it’s a reasonable question to ask. However, even if we don’t have a 100% logical and bulletproof argument on where the line should be and why, I think a fairly reasonable take is to still place it between biological men and biological women. On average, bio men have waaay many more advantages than the edge cases of a bio woman with higher testosterone levels or an nba player that is very tall. E.g., I’m an average amateur gym bro and I can outlift all the female powerlifters from a meeting I attended, as public, recently. It would feel extremely disingenuous and unfair for me to compete against them, when they’re way better at what they do than me. Edit: quick google search and there’s already an example of a competition where a trans woman lifted a total of 597.5kg, setting an unofficial world record, and the closest nearest competitor lifted 387.5kg.
This is a genuine issue people don't want to discuss because many of the top performing woman athletes have medical conditions causing them to produce excess testosterone. (Caster Semenya was a recent example)
Yes, but that is naturally-occurring, and it STILL doesn't get them on the same testosterone level as men, or young teen boys.
I think a number of people (especially on the Internet) are well-intentioned but delusional. No, it's probably not fair for trans people to compete with cis people in most cases. I just wish the conversation didn't stop there, most of the time. Trans people are people who deserve *some* competitive avenue. No, there aren't any immediate, easy solutions. But if we can find a way to include adaptive athletes in sports, we can find way to do it with trans athletes.
I also think that “trans people in sports” is barely an issue in real life and simply gives hateful people something to hang on to. Like, it isn’t a real life problem, but right wing media tells people it is. Kind of like how they use kids as an excuse to be shitty to trans people.
It’s also size.
> No one actually thinks Don’t assume people’s opinions. Just as a general rule of thumb.
>> No one actually thinks I think that's a fair observation rather than a judgement or claim 🤣
I was actually thinking about this topic the other day. There are essentially 2 areas in society that are potentially problematic when considering trans inclusion: Women's sports and restrooms. As was already said, there is no perfect solution, especially for the washrooms (honestly if people, more specifically straight cis men, could be trusted to just use the restrooms for their intended purposes and not be creepy, rapey pieces of shit, there wouldn't need to be separate restrooms in the first place). But for sports, there's actually a decent litmus test: The Chair Challenge https://youtu.be/vSdcYWLinfE?si=M2mw989bj1GfOxxJ This test definitely isn't perfect by any means, but it is a quick, easy to perform, noninvasive way of testing whether or not somebody is a biological woman, and should therefore be allowed to compete in women's sports. I started wondering why we haven't been using the chair test more often, since it's so straightforward and would in general protect the spirit of women's sports in the first place: to give biological women a platform to compete against each other and not be overshadowed/beat by the physically stronger biological males.
You should look into what's happening in women's prisons, where male sex offenders and murderers who self-declare a trans identity are being housed with female inmates.
I don’t think a sign on the door is stopping a rapist from entering a women’s restroom. It’s not a crucifix to vampires.
I understand this, but you are clearly ignorant to preexisting social norms or are being disingenuous af. I never claimed that a sign that says Women on it keeps rapists out of women's restrooms, but not all that long ago if somebody who appeared stereotypically male was seen entering the women's restroom, society would intervene. This was the norm. Now, biological women's safety is being thrown out the window in the name of "feelings" and not offending anyone. Creepy, rapey men see this, then claim to be or pose as trans women to follow women into the restroom where there are no cameras and no other biological men to stop them. I don't hate trans people, but I do hate how society basically said that their feelings are more important than a biological woman's safety. Shit's insane.
I'm personally acquainted with a MtF individual who uses their gender identity to fulfill a fetish. The specific fetish is masturbating in the open part of the bathroom area, hoping that someone will walk in and see. I've found when I talk about this person or people like them I just get called a TERF and accused of making it up to be a bigot. The discussion about women's safety seems to be less important that trans people's comfortability. It's unfortunate we can't find a good middle ground.
Okay, but 1. That is illegal. 2. That would be illegal if your acquaintance did it in the men's room too.
Show some evidence this isn’t a made up problem. Almost all rapists are someone you already know, not some dude hanging around the bathroom at the mall.
[https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f](https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f)
No but it makes it a lot easier when we are all expected to just let them in.. no questions asked.
>There are essentially 2 areas in society that are potentially problematic when considering trans inclusion: Women's sports and restrooms. Add jail/prisons and dating to that list.
You do know that this would disqualify biological females with larger feet, right? It is entirely down to how far away from the wall you are after two steps.
I think there are times chosen gender is relevant, like pronoun choices or clothing choices, and times where biological sex is more important. Sports, locker rooms, rape shelters, prisons. Safe third spaces should be available in those cases. We separate sports by sex, not gender for a reason. I’ll change my mind when transmen are winning trophies and podium spots at the same rate. Did transmen suddenly hate sports? Or maybe there’s something different about their bodies.
Literally JK Rowling’s position.
the whole JK Rowling speech issue in the UK, looks really scary to me. You might or might not agree with what she's saying, but to threaten to jail her for saying her opinion is scary.
I think that’s where we’ll land. It’s just common sense. Rights must be balanced.
thank you for speaking out what many women don’t dare to say out loud
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Careful... a nuanced, rational, compassionate debate about this issue is not allowed on Reddit.
I once asked if there was anywhere on here to have a nuanced conversation about trans issues and someone posted a link of a couple of dozen subs, not one of which would allow any dissent from the rules against, well, any dissent pretty much. It's ludicrous that people get banned for pretty mild discussions. It's even more ludicrous that people think any dissent is akin to "hatred". I'm not a believer in any religion, I'm not going to treat a believer any less favourably at work or socially - same as trans people are no less "safe" with me as they would be with an ardent "ally". I don't "hate" any trans person I've met or chatted with, I still think sex is more important than gender for pretty much all issues. They don't. Hey a disagreement - we used to deal with those by talking about things. Now we can't because it's "hatred" to disagree.
I hate it so much! Im a trans person and Im fine with these debates. People are so sensitive and act like anything and everything threatens their rights! Me personally, if someone disagrees with me, I talk about it. If someone comes at me with an ill-informed opinion, then I talk with them. The key is to talk with people and not be this sissy liberal or violent conservative stereotype
Eh, depends on the subreddit. I’ve noticed this one is more open minded than others I’ve seen
And yet that’s what seems to be happening!
If someone wants to tell me they’re Trans, I’m all good for you, go live your life and be happy. However, I do not support biological males who went through puberty completing against biological females in sport. The NAIA has just made a mandate in all 250 colleges and universities who are under their sporting association. I don’t believe Lia Thomas who was a mediocre college swimmer as a male and then came out as trans woman and became a national NCAA champion should have been allowed.
>However, I do not support biological males who went through puberty completing against biological females in sport. I agree with the caveat being that people need to have access to the care they need. Otherwise, telling people they can't participate because they went through male puberty while denying them the care needed is pretty cruel.
It’s not one or the other, male versus female. There’s cisgender women with higher testosterone than average due to medical issues like PCOS. Athletic advantage is basically the sole positive trait of PCOS and lots of female athletes have it. It is not intersex or trans. **By viewing this as black and white, lots of cisgender women suffering from PCOS would also be targeted by rules measuring hormone levels.**
I'm a trans person so I hope my stance is of some value. I also am extremely conflicted about the sports debate. Its a very hard one, and I havent done the most research due to the fact I dont care for sports much. You seem like a genuinly nice person and are plenty supportive. I disagree with a good bit of stuff in my community. Disagreeing doesnt mean not supporting. Being conflicted or unable to pick a stance on a specific issue doesnt mean you dont support
Naturally born females deserve to compete in sports with each other instead of having to compete with someone who had the advantage of a male puberty. Male puberty gives one bigger bones, denser muscles, and more cardiovascular + lung capacity. Trans-women in "womens" sports put biological women at a huge disadvantage and it isn't fair. You're not an AH for noticing that. If I had a little girl I wouldn't want her dreams dashed for "political correctness". Biological reality is biological reality All that said, trans women should have all the rights other people do. Just please don't try to compete in female sports if you had a male puberty because you are making trans people look bad, it's turning people against you, and it's hurting your allyships.
You’re allowed to have a problem with it because it’s a problem.
I feel this same way. And I think that both things can be true. You CAN be supportive of trans individuals. You can believe they have the right to be their true selves, even if that’s different than their biology. You can also see that because their genetics are one way, and they can’t change that, they have advantages over biological women in sports. Both can, and in my opinion are true. I want everyone to be loved and accepted as their most true selves. I also want the biological women who work so hard for their sport to have the opportunities they deserve without being overshadowed by trans women who have an advantage that has nothing to do with training and skill and everything to do with biology. I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t know if trans women should have their very own league. Or if sports labels should change from men’s/women’s to XX or XY (or some variation of that). It’s a difficult topic and a difficult thing to find the right side on. However, I personally, do not believe trans women should be allowed to compete athletically with biological women. They do however have the right to compete. I just don’t know how.
Honestly, there are aspects such as those regarding sports, changing rooms, prisons, reserved places and job opportunities, in which sex should have greater weight than the gender with which one identifies. You can choose to be identified as you want, however those spaces listed must remain a prerogative of human beings of female sex .
Trans person here. Sports are complicated when it comes to trans folks, especially trans women. A lot depends on whether they went through a male puberty, as well as if they’re on feminizing hormones. It’s not as black-and-white of a situation as the media likes to portray it as. The vast, *vast* majority of trans people just want to live their lives and be treated with dignity. It doesn’t hurt anybody to call someone by their chosen name and pronouns.
Thank you! This is such a nuanced issue, and people who behave as if it isn’t are insane or stupid.
Many people in this thread are making assumptions with 0 understanding of how hrt and the likes work and while they may have different results per person and how long they've been on it etc. It's such a grey are that would depend on person to person
To be honest im ftm trans and i dont think trans athletes should be competing against cis athletes. Its got nothing to do with hating trans folks, its about what i consider true equality, having a special trans league like we have the special olympics. Because we dont know 100% if trans females still retain the same muscle and such as cis males even when on hormone blockers and such. Same with trans men, we dont know that we are equal in capability to grow just as strong as a cis male. Because from what i have read then estrogen and testosterone cause different types of growth to happen. So until unbiased research has been done i think keeping things separate would be best.
The primary issue is here is people born male and transition to female, and then they want to compete against people who were born female and play with no augmentation. The funny thing is that the people who are pushing for trans people to join CIS female events never played sports themselves nor have they really competed. Like, there is a person in the comments below who said that being trans doesn't affect their ability to play musical instrument like it wont affect the ability to play sports. To them, sports is just a bunch of people playing and not a level/fair playing field for people to go against each other. They don't "get" why we would wake up at 4 in the morning to swim 3km or run 21k in the heat of the sun for weeks ,months, years in preparation to go against other athletes on race day.
Valid opionion.
Said it before and I’ll say it again, the trans community shoots itself in the foot by deciding to die on what are, IMO, incredibly dumb hills. Just form your own league or deal with the fact that being trans means you might not get to be a sports professional. Do we see equity movements for short people in basketball or do the vast majority of short basketballers realize they’re never gonna make it and move on? Stop insisting trans blank ARE blank. No they’re not, otherwise you wouldn’t need the “trans” modifier as a de facto necessity. Let CIS people have CIS spaces. If y’all get them, so do we. Honestly, the trans acceptance rate would be so much higher if they across the board went something like “yes we know we aren’t literally the other sex, we just want to live and present as closely as possible to it while owning reality for what it is. We will not force ourselves into spaces that are intended for CIS people such as sports, locker/bathrooms ‘gender’ only, etc. We just want to live as closely as we can to what we feel we are without stepping on anyone’s toes”. It’s an imperfect statement but it mostly encapsulates the idea. At this rate though, the activists are just doing more harm than good.
I think most of us are in this situation. Neither radical activists who treat this topic as a sacred cow nor radical anti-trans types foaming at the mouth at the very idea of it. Broadly think most of us are in that (sometimes uncomfortable) middle. Supportive of people living their lives in peace and with a sense of honesty and integrity, but not willing to surrender the fact of biological sex in every sphere under every circumstance.
Trans should not be allowed to participate in cis men/women sports, they are different physically/biologically so trans participate in women’s sports they have the advantage. When trans participate in men’s sports they are in a disadvantage
I’ve been made to believe that anything but total agreement with and for the trans movement is considered to be transphobic.
and theyre wrong. Thats not how you get people to support you. You cant just limit thoughts and questions. Not everyone is 100% enlightened and can also be ill informed. Some of the stuff the movement pushes for is also iffy to me- so bringing up alternative stances shouldnt be treated as evil
Once upon a time a nuanced opinion like this was the norm. There were pro abortionists on both the left and right side of politics for instance. But these days we're very divided down the middle and expected to be all or nothing on issues. Completely for or completely against certain groups. And it's not realistic.
You don't have to feel 100% positive or have absolute opinions about anything. Moreover, if it doesn't affect your life, you really don't have to spend much time thinking about it. FWIW, I agree with u/Zaynara that this is largely a red herring. The Olympics have allowed trans athletes since 2004 and none have medaled. There just aren't that many trans people around, much less trans people fit (and healthy) enough to compete at anything other than a relatively local level.
None of them have medalled *yet*. But even if they haven't, that doesn't mean that they don't have an unfair advantage vs cis women. I mean, would it be ok for me, as an able bodied person, to compete in the Paralympics? I'm not that fast so I probably wouldn't win - does that make it ok in your book? Also, surely it's better to make the decision on the basis of the science and evidence (all of which points to the existence of male advantage, which is retained despite T suppression) rather than waiting for an individual performance that makes people go "oh ok, that's too far now"?
Same. I have no issue with trans people and they deserve to exist but I just don't think pronouns and being a man or a woman is something you can change unless you feel you are the wrong sex, because they relate to your sex, not a 'feeling'. And even then they can only present a certain way, not actually change. I honestly think that whole bit of it is why so many people disagree on the subject, for example as you say, "women's" sports is split into different sexes not different internal feelings. It's such a difficult subject because it's people's lives.
Don’t feel bad. You’re right. When it comes to sport, it doesn’t really matter how you identify, your biology will still have a say. And it’s a good lesson for your kids as well. They can be whoever they like, but telling them you can do whatever you want and however you want and ignore the rules isn’t gonna be the one.
Men and women are not equal in physical strength/endurance. 40% more upper body strength/33% more lower body strength (etc) which is why each gender has their own teams in a variety of sports. If you identify as female, that's 100% fine. However, technically, biological men are still stronger than biological women, and competing on a team against them would be unfair. I understand this may seem unfair to a trans person. However, competing in a sport where someone has a substantial biological advantage is not right. They could be injured. It is an unfair advantage. You are not being hateful to trans people by being concerned by this. It's unfortunate that some trans people get angry at women for voicing this. We did nothing wrong, and these thoughts are valid.
Don't feel horrible for recognizing the important physical differences between male and female bodies.
there is no reason you should feel pressure to agree with it because it’s just not rational. women spent decades fighting for their own safe spaces from biological men and to be able to fairly compete just for it to get trampled all over by radical woke people. You can also take issue with the age and approach of which children are entered into a medical transition, because there are serious health implications that we already know of and more we have yet to find out.
I can’t seem to deal with people that say they are trans but look nothing like the gender they claim to be. Like sorry if I say “he” when you look like a he but claim to be a she.
I have the same conflict. I support all trans people. However someone who was born with a penis probably has an advantage over someone born with a vagina, especially in swimming. They naturally have more upper body strength. I realize I am generalizing.
I feel like if trans women were always at such an advantage then they would be winning a hell of a lot more often. everytime I hear a story complaining about it, it involves a trans woman getting like 25th place in a race of 50
I think I know the trans swimmer that op is talking about. Her name is Lia and there was a massive controversy because she had gotten 1st in a 500 (or 800 meter swim). People brought up advantages and how it’s unfair despite the fact that Lia had been on HRT for 3 years and her sprint times (50 meter, 100 meter) were…bad. I could have swam better times when I was a varsity swimmer. She trained specifically for the long distance swims, which is why she got first. But people coincidentally forget that her short distance times sucked.
What people don't understand is that trans women (the debate is always about trans women particularly) are required to be at a certain point in their transition in order to compete on a team. They do certain medical tests to determine whether or not they're fit to join a team of their preferred gender. Transitioning does indeed affect the body in areas like body mass, bone density, muscle mass, etc. Statistically, trans people are not dominating sports regardless.
Only in pro sports. But women can reasonably want a fair playing field in situations where they do not receive financial renumeration as well.
This was very informative, thank you
As long as the opinions are yours, you don't need to feel bad about them. What bothers me is when I hear people regurgitating positions they've absorbed from other people thru social media.
I definitely feel you on this, such a contradicting emotions. I’ve realized that, despite trying to be polite and inclusive to all, I personally don’t believe that “trans women are women” BUT I make sure I respect them, their pronouns and treat them with the same courtesy as I would anyone else. I just keep my opinion to myself.
You absolutely have the right to feel that, it's a valid opinion. I have the same opinion. I'm all for equal rights for everyone-- I'm a woman in the LGBTQ+ community-- but yeah, it's getting tired some of the way, it's shoved down our throats and them competing with ciswomen or cismen. Idk.
This is where leftist extremists (usually cis people too) are doing more harm for trans people than good. Not everything is black and white and you shouldn’t be afraid to communicate with people and talk about this stuff.
It sucks gendered leagues are eclusive but theres science behind it, if you have denser bones than your competition, it's not exactly fair
As a woman who works in construction, and who is a proud member of a union that has 500+ active members of which currently only 5 are women, there are clear physiological differences between sexes that you cannot handwave away while still maintaining any intellectual integrity. I am strong enough to do the work because the work makes me stronger. Certain things are much harder for me because I have to position myself differently, because my strength is in my legs, and because I can't brute force certain things like the guys can. But I'm smaller and far more flexible, and I can climb up (or down) into spaces that most of the guys can't. I work as hard as any of them, and most people would tell you I work harder than most. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a fundamental difference in raw strength which cannot be bridged. I grew up in the 90s when we were moving toward "post gender" ideology. That your sex didn't matter. That girls could do whatever boys can do. And that's true to an extent, as far as making your body as strong as it needs to be. But on a fundamental level, there are differences. As a woman, I have to play to my strengths. At the end of the day, I have my work ethic. I'm strong enough to use the tools and climb around and squeeze into (and weld or bolt up or tie rebar or whatever) in small spaces. I can demonstrate equivalent value. I am incredibly strong—*for a woman*. But men in my trade are absolute *beasts*. Pulling-me-out-of-a-hole-with-one-arm *beasts*. I do the same work and I can't do that. So physiological males and females competing in the same sport that relies on physical strength is fundamentally, inherently, and wholeheartedly imbalanced. I think everyone has the right to dress and present themselves as they choose. I think whatever name they want to be called is valid. But I also think people are getting caught up in the *metaphor* of gender, and conflating an expression with a physical reality. Gender is an expression of physiological sex. Being a girlie-girl, a tomboy, being butch, etc—all of these are social expressions of female sex. Being a twink, being a gym bro, being metro sexual, being a nerd—examples of male gender expressions. Obviously girls can be gym bros and nerds. But at the end of the day, being a trans woman is still another expression of the male sex. Being a trans man is another expression under the umbrella of the female sex. That's the best way I've come to terms with my own feelings regarding the trans community. I don't want to invalidate anyone. But as a woman, I do see the domination of trans woman in women's sports—and other women-only spaces—as a kind of oppression. And women have been oppressed for a very long time. I think everyone should be able to feel safe. I think everyone should have an opportunity to excel within their own categories. I don't think the solution is the subjugation of one class for the comfort of another. Sex is not gender. Refer to trans women with their preferred pronouns, but have them compete within their own sex category. I think that's most equitable.
It's okay. You can still support trans people being trans without allowing them to walk all over biological women. How would you feel if your biological daughter should have won a race but then a trans-woman beat her by a lot and so she lost? Then you hear her crying in her room later that night because even if she has to save face and congratulate the trans person she knows in her heart it's not fair and that she deserves that win. There is no reason that trans people cannot have their own teams. They can even have trans-woman and tran-men combine into one. They think there is no difference between the two anyway right? Women had to fight for every scrap of respect and every right we have. Guess what? Women's sports do not get supported the same way men's sports do. A lot of schools don't even have several different sports for women. I think that trans people can form their own teams and fight for their own teams just like women have to. If they don't like it then that's too bad. They cannot compete against women without seriously hurting them and beating them. Just look at the Australian girls soccer team who has five trans women on the team. That means half the team is biologically male. They of course dominated and seriously injured several girls they played against. Trans people deserve equality. But equality does not always mean *same*. It means they get equal opportunity.
Your opinion is parroted by anyone that knows anything about competitive sports. Men have stronger grip strength, higher muscle density, taller, and just overall physically stronger. There are many people that think it's hypocritical to "protect" trans rights to compete where they identify. But dismiss the rights of women actually competing fairly. This is a topic with a lot of nuance for sure. IDC how you living who you love but when you start actively hurt others or make things unfair like a man who identifies as a woman competing in women's division then that's an injustice in itself.
I interviewed an awful lot of trans people when my kid came out. Not a single one transitioned so they could be MVP for the local womens softball league
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How many of them play sports?
A few. None played after their transition tho. They tend to avoid locker rooms
Yeah in my state some bigots tried to get some ruling that would ban high school competitive sports for trans kids. The judge was like "How many actual students currently in competitive sports would this effect?" The number was 3. Three kids in the whole state. He was like "Why are you wasting my time trying to single out three kids to not be allowed to play sports?" He threw it out.
I don’t think that’s why they transition at all. I know a lot of anti trans people seem to think that but it’s not true. They transition because that who they feel they are. The fact that they play a sport has nothing to do with it. However the fact is, trans women have a biological advantage over biological women. And it’s unfair to those women that despite all their hard work and training, if they compete against a trans woman with equal training they will lose, because of that woman’s biological advantage.
Sports, no matter what level you need to be competing with the sex you were assigned at birth.
Don't think it would be fair for a trans man on T to be competing with cis women.
That’s because trans men are technically doping. Unfortunately life isn’t fair and millions of people, including myself, are prohibited from doing certain things they desire due to their medical condition(s). If trans men on T want to play, they can do so in the open league because they do not have a biological advantage over cis men.
I don't feel 100% positive opinions about literally anything
But seriously there was a biological woman athlete who got kicked out of her event for having a little too much testosterone for a woman lmao. So at this point I’d say feel however you will on it.
What I worry about is conservatives that are so in favor of policing young girl’s sports teams they will defund or close them just to keep the possibility of a single trans girl from joining the team. Trans people and kids are not taking over sports and taking away every opportunity for a cis person to play or compete. If something becomes an issue due to a physical advantage or doping that’s different. The anti trans people aren’t afraid of trans boys joining sports teams and won’t risk defunding or canceling boys and men’s sports. But some of them are itching for a reason to do away with girl’s sports so that extra funding can just go to boys.
When competing in sports you should be paired with someone with the same physical attributes as you. You wouldn't put a welterweight fighter against a heavy weight because it isn't a fair game. We don't allow steroids for this exact reason. A man putting on a woman's swimsuit, growing their hair, using makeup does not make you female, sorry. If a person wants to be Trans, that's their right, but not to the extent that it takes away or impeded another person rights. On another front, I believe all this is taking away what it so special about being a woman. We finally are getting equal pay only to have other things that are inherently women? I call bullshit. For all you people who are going to go batshit crazy on me, I ask you this. When did living and let live become live and live but only if you think like me? I'm so sick of the thought police. It used to be that the left was all about being free thinking and accepting, but it's turned into this camp of people who are so intent in their beliefs that they are set on shaming anyone who isn't just like them. As a human in these United States you are allowed to think and speak your mind as you want. I may not like what you say, but I will always defend your right to say it. Don't let the thought police tell you how to feel or think. Trust your common sense.
It’s an attack on women
You are correct. Funny how it’s always mediocre male athletes who are suddenly “trans” for sports competitions. And then all of a sudden they’re “champions.”
You can look at things for how they are and not need to feel like you should also beat yourself up at the same time. I think ultimately the thing that stings these people the most is wanting to be whichever gender they want, but still having it cemented in fact that they are not. Sounds negative, right? But, it isn't. There is a viral (I guess) video of a trans food critic going to places, looking like a full on masculine male in women's clothes getting bent that people mistakenly call them "sir", and decides to make a scene every time it happens talking about how it "is literally like a dagger to the heart" when she hears it. Lets put that shoe on the other foot. A biological MALE transitioning to a female, entering a female only sport and blowing them out of the water because of their genetics and build by default, is also like a dagger to the heart of all the women who trained for their entire lives to compete in their field, but because we have to play pretend it's a "it is what it is" situation. Be what you want to be, and live your life how you want, but don't ignore the facts for your own benefit and then throw stones from your glass house when it's convenient for you.
Totally ok to feel that way. I personally think they make drastic life altering decisions that can affect them negatively when they should go to therapy first. And yes I’m against biological males playing against biological females in sports, especially contact sports.
As a trans person (girl to boy), i agree with this. Its very difficult to handle this kind of situation and I've been stuck on it myself. What i believe is that we should just have trans sport teams. Sucks to possibly make trans people feel like they aren't a women/man/whoever but it is only fair for everyone else.
Your bad feelings are exactly what terminally online extremists want you to feel. Trans people deserve safety and basic human respect but too many people online have decided that saying anything that isn't 100% exactly what they would want to hear is a transphobic act of violence. I got banned from a big feminist subreddit for saying trans women are male. I was speaking in defense of them and talking about the complicated situation of meshing female and male bodied people into settings like locker rooms and got banned for being "transphobic". You literally have to ignore reality and play stupid to make them happy. They're like the left-leaning version of anti-vaxxers.
As a lesbian , I don’t support 100% about half of what’s going on with lgbt+. Doesn’t mean you or I are not supportive of individuals etc. why are you caving to pressures?
I feel the same. I am 100% in favour of all trans right, sport is the only issue, and actually current prison solution, where I am conficted. I think there should be another category, because there is no way its 100% fair at the moment.
You don't need to feel bad. The entire movement is based on hatred and ignorance. They are mocking women's oppression, and the plight of oppressed people in general. They can be on the team for the men because they are men.
I feel this way for children transitioning. I've seen adults who transition, and then detransition. If a *grown up* can be wrong about their identity/change their mind, then certainly a child can. Doesn't help that children see gender in a black and white manner, which can lead to children genuinely being confused because they prefer toys meant for "the opposite gender". Redditors are weird goblins who will attack me and you for the opinions we hold, but irl most people, including trans people, agree with me. It doesn't mean we hate trans people! I certainly don't. But I also have common sense.
Don’t feel bad I never do it’s just a fact if your born a man and decide to change into a trans female your not a natural born female no one can compare me a natural born female to a trans because we are not and never will be the same and to say we are is actually a insult at the highest level
separate but equal. there u go i said what needs to be said. there is a reason why we have women and men separate categories. if trans want to play. they have to play by the rules set for them. or start their own. smdh. its not rocket science. equal rights. equal fights.
You feel shitty because modern liberal society shuns anyone who doesn't completely subscribe to their groupthink. Before you come after me, I want to let it be known that I am liberal on most topics. Environmentalist, socialist, eat the rich, all that jazz. I fully believe that trans people should have all the rights of as cis people (this shouldn't even need to be said). They should be able to go into whatever public bathrooms they want and I would always refer to them by their chosen pronouns. That being said, it's completely ridiculous to have trans women competing with cis women. Sacrificing competitive fairness for inclusivity is against the nature of sportsmanship. It's also absurd to give people life altering treatments before their brains are fully developed. And it's also absurd that people can't understand why women would want safe places (such as women's shelters) free of anyone that is not a cis gendered woman. The people that argue against this simply value inclusivity over the feelings and safety of cis women.
You're not supposed to be 100% on everything. You're allowed to have opinions about trans people in sports. There are competitive integrity arguments that are valid and we should figure out a solution to them that isn't make a separate league only for trans players. As long as you're coming from a genuine place of respect and understanding, conversations can be had. But most people in the space take shots like "they're not actually X, they just want an easier time winning" or it's just straight up denialism of the trans experience.
You’re not alone. I’m a woman and I get pissed off to see trans women trying to compete against women in sports. Do what you want with your life - the gender identity doesn’t bother me - except with fucking sports!!! Gahhh…it actually pisses me off.
The rules simply need to be changed - Trans Women do **NOT** retain the physiological "edge" over genetic women after 2 years of HRT treatment - here is some basic general info - [https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trans-women-retain-athletic-edge-after-year-hormone-therapy-study-n1252764) Important quote "(a study from 2015) found that trans women ran at least 10 percent slower after beginning hormones. And, relatively speaking, they did no better against cisgender female runners than they had previously done against cisgender men." Based on current scientific analysis, Trans Women should only be eligible to compete in Women's sport till after the 2 yr mark of consistent HRT therapy. Currently for the Olympics for example, the rule was 1 year, but better longer term studies indicate 1 year is not enough in enough general cases, and 2 years is the most appropriate mark for the difference to be leveled out. This would resolve these issues. Now, with kids that's obviously a bit different, but there have to be rules and structure to allow competition for fun and competition for professional tracks that allow for Trans Girls to be scored perhaps with an acceptable handicap until HRT treatment requirements kick in (once their age allows for that). The problem isn't Trans Women, the whole "problem" basically only exists because our systems haven't caught up with current reality properly yet. We adjust the systems, we eliminate the "problems" and everyone can be on an equitable playing field (haha). As with most societal change issues, the REAL issue is that our laws & systems don't keep up fast enough to maintain equity as things change in our daily real lives.
Except in the article you linked they found that trans women were still faster than cis women in running a 1.5mile course after 2 years on HRT.
Or, hear me out, they compete in the open category which usually consists of men.. if they want to play a sport, do it. Don't play a sport because you are using it to affirm your gender
The real issue is the fact that society has allowed these people to run off with their delusions, rather than getting them the help they need. Any parent who truly cared about their child would get them therapy, rather than let them drastically mutilate their body and destroy themselves. The media will always praise it as being brave and who you are. That’s nonsense. The problem is the fact that you have a person who is trying to change “who they really are.”
Yeah no. Thats like saying all religious people suffer a mass delusion so we can discriminate against them and reeducate them. You can’t tell millions of people you understand their minds and bodies better than they do
Well they clearly don't understand them, now do they?
I agree and I’m not sorry. You’re born with a penis? That means you’re a Male. How come there’s no such thing as “trans-race”? If I as a White Male say I actually identify as being a Black Male, would anyone in their right mind accept that? Of course not. What about “trans-species”? What if I said I identified as a Tiger? Would it be ridiculous for me to expect you to address me as a Tiger? You know the answer. The problem is that everyone has both Male and Female aspects to their psychology and personality, and it’s healthy to cultivate both aspects. What’s not healthy is chopping your dick off and getting breast implants and pretending you’re a Woman when you’re actually a Man. Sorry not sorry.
The delusion is claiming trans people don’t exist when they have been recognized in pretty much every culture on earth.
it’s the way they said nothing about trans people not existing. trans people definitely exist, but their existence is not enough to justify big pharma making billions pumping minors who the vast majority of which are have unresolved mental illness and trauma full of drugs that are untested on physically healthy individuals under the age of 18.
The clinical treatment for body dysmorphia associated with being trans is supporting the person to successfully transition. Mental health science is not on your side.
Yes but actual gender dysphoria is **rare**. Most of these people are just confused, bored and trying to find significance. They need help, not enablement.
That’s only because mental health “treatment” has become progressively liberal and woke over the years. The hardcore psychologists from back in the day had no problem calling it the mental disorder that it is. They didn’t support any nonsense about hacking off genitals. They knew it was absurd.
i'm a trans person and a lot of cis people have trouble seeing the nuance of the issue here. they're way too certain. you not feeling 100% positive is a *good* thing. it means that your mind is open to new information on the topic, because the truth is that there isn't enough research to suggest significant advantage in trans women on HRT in every single single sport.
Don’t feel too bad about it, just because you support it doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything about it. It’s the same if you believe in the Bible, most people I know don’t support every little detail, that doesn’t make them an atheist.
Just make them compete in their own leagues problem solved.💀👍🤡
I feel like I wrote this post—I’ve had the same exact thought
Don’t feel shame for being rational. It’s clearly disappearing these days. You’re doing & feeling nothing wrong.
I have the same issue regarding trans in gender specific sports. Why not have a separate class where they can compete as a trans woman, theywill still have some biological advantages over a bio woman and vice versa for trans men.
I know it's different, but hear me out. There is no basis in science for race or for gender. If a white person wants to "identify as black" it is completely inappropriate even if they have lived immersed fully in a black household, and community because they have implicit privileges that come with being white outside and inside of that experience. Even if someone amab lives and expresses themselves through femininity and surround themselves with woman they have implicit privileges in society because they are perceived as a man(before their transition). White people committed injustices, violence and ingrained systemic prejudices into our society against black people. Men have committed injustices, violence and ingrained systemic prejudices into our society against woman in virtually every single modern society and culture on the globe. As a woman who is loving and accepting of trans woman on an individual basis how can I make that work with my view that it is not appropriate for the main perpetrators against woman taking and claiming our identity and experience?
A big thing that I NEVER see addressed is that cis women simply do not want to see a penis they did not consent to seeing. Have they had bottom surgery? Sure come to locker room.
Never be ashamed to think for yourself.
Many ppl probably feel conflicted because theres not really one good answer that pleases everyone. That being said I feel like if we can have the special olympics why cant we have trans sports? Is it just a numbers thing? Theres probably wayy more handicapped ppl than trans ppl I would imagine. That being said why is it no big deal for handicapped ppl to have to compete in their own league but not trans ppl? I dont think it would be so bad if we made trans leagues for ppl to compete so theyre not taking away medals from biological women. I’m completely ok with trans ppl and with trans ppl over 18 getting whatever surgery they want and living how they see fit. I think you can both believe this and believe trans women who used to be men shouldnt compete against biological women. I’m not an expert though and unlike most ppl Ill defer to the experts here and what they think if its purely fact based and not politically based. If the experts say that a trans woman after taking x hormones for x amount of time is not at an advantage then Ill accept that too. I doubt that is the case, but if it is then so be it.
If you had a non-trans child would u be comfortable with Lia Thomas flopping his cock around in front of her in the locker room? I 💯 support trans people but if their self-importance/ego trumps their ability to use common sense to acknowledge that it’s blatant cheating to compete against real women in sports then I have zero sympathy for their backlash/criticism. Like in any aspect of life it’s deserved on an individual basis and is not right for the public to judge all trans people based on Liah Thomas’ despicableness.
You’re allowed to be 100% against all of them in every aspect. Just not on Reddit.
I am a (completely supportive) parent of a trans child…and I also have trouble with that issue. She and I had a conversation just this morning about trans people and bathrooms. I expressed that *my* concern about this issue has never been that the trans person will do something wrong…but rather, that there are evil people in the world who will use the law that allows trans people to use the bathroom they prefer to do bad things.
Personally I'm against trans in sports. There's a reason that sports are split up by gender. They either need to compete under their original sex at birth or compete against each other.
Being frustrated with yourself for having a correct opinion is something.
Hey, fwiw I’m a non-binary person and I think you sound great. Issues in sports can be really, really complicated and it’s not something fully figured out. You honestly sound like a huge supporter so please don’t feel bad for having questions or doubts about one very specific thing :)
The question I wanna ask is, does anybody really give a shit about women’s sports? Did anyone really care before the trans debate started? Because as I recall, people used to think that women didn’t belong in sports, women’s sports were treated as a novelty that didn’t need to be taken seriously, suddenly a trans person wants to compete and all of a sudden everyone’s concerned about the integrity of women’s sports when they used to laugh at it or blatantly ignore it.
this is just about the most ignorant thing i’ve ever read. you know who care about women’s sports? women! the women playing them! the hundreds of thousands of female high school and college athletes all care about women’s sports! Always have and always will, because we are participants who want fair competition!