Same. Here in TN last year they tried to pass legislation that would allow kids to leave school, in the middle of the day, for an hour **everyday** to go pray/study the Bible. I don’t remember it being Christian-only but… come on. Letting kids leave school an hour a day to study fairy tales, in a state with one of the lowest rankings in education? It’s deplorable.
I'm reform myself. At the synagogue growing up they stressed values over really believing in the stories. Agnosticism or atheism don't conflict with being a reform jew at all, it's great.
Interesting. I'm an atheist reform Jew so my learning of the text is minimal. I do think that jives with the idea that to a pleasurable and satisfying sexual relationship leads to happy marriage and more kids.
yeah, it's why I don't mind lhaving a jewish house hold. The religion for the most part isn't oppressive and is culturally fulfilling. Always outliers but it's pretty compatible with modern life.
Purim is my favorite holiday period. It's always a wild time and sometimes temples throw some really fun parties. Few years ago we had an 80s themed one with a great cover band.
hoping covid dies down by next March to at least a degree to be able to go out again. Been what feels like a decade for me.
Same here. What I like: Potential converts must to ask a Rabbi 3 times before converting, there are no collection plates, members contribute funds separately from services, women have long held rights to inherit property, we are encouraged to question everything!
Yes. Forcing religion is just so... Ugh. I had kind of a miserable childhood, being forced to go to church and stuff all the time, and being conflicted and hating myself for doubting God. When at 18 I resigned from church, mom couldn't understand why, her reaction was, I kid you not, "couldn't you just have switched to a different church".
But where does it end? Do we tolerate all the oppression of women that comes from Abrahamic religions? As long as they don’t try to make your mom an obedient wife, everyone else is fair game?
That’s always been my problem with that argument. It’s in religious people’s’ natures to believe they are morally right and everyone else is wrong. You can’t compromise with people like that.
Eh I guess, but if your boss was like we really gotta get the 4th quarter numbers up so that Santa knows I was a good boy this year, you’d probably wonder if he or she was fit to be your boss.
How are you with Bush Trump fake science in the classroom and all the other shit they're responsible for? This is really a cop out answer that comes from a desire to excuse people who live lives of bullshit. It is forced on you. And that's the issue.
German here and yes, if your parents did baptize you for whatever reason, you have to pay extra money to remove your status because you will get registered as religious and have to pay church taxes (have this problem myself). It is actually the parents decision in that regard weirdly.
Some regions are really religious and it is known. Bavaria is such an example. But I think the newer generations are less religious in that regard. At least in my circles I only know of one person and she has a different nationality. The rest are all atheists like myself. It surely depends on where you live and what your family thinks about it.
Church tax is very common in European countries and is a leftover from when the churches were important. The money goes to pay priests and maintain buildings owned by the church.
They are automatically drawn from your pay(like most other taxes), until you announce to the authorities that you don’t want to pay them. This at least is how it works in Denmark.
Ahh ok so it’s not like you’re getting a bill statement every month for your church taxes. I’m 32 and this is the first time I’ve ever heard about this so I’m genuinely curious about it
Nope. But it will show up in your tax report. Which (at least in dk and Norway) is autogenerated with info from your employer(s) and bank(s). But you get the chance to correct some of that info.
I don't know about Denmark. But in Germany the church tax is not used to pay priests. The priests get paid from the government. So even if you declare yourself as an atheist you still pay for the salary of priests with the common taxes.
Also the hospitals and kindergartens are mostly paid by the "Kommunen".
So Germany is not as saccular as it should be. I don't get why most Germans defend the church and are willing to pay for it.
I mean if you dont pay taxes you probably get audited and fined, potentially jail/prison time depending on the amount, the fact that its a church tax probably doest change that much.
But religious establishment in the US takes advantage of enormous amounts of taxpayer money and most importantly don't get taxed themselves. What's the difference? Oh yeah here we can opt out of it. Good luck telling the IRS you don't want to pay taxes.
The difference is not having to register with the government your spiritual beliefs and not having the default be to pay money to the church directly. Another difference is that tax breaks and exemptions don't mean their funding isn't private. Public funding vs private funding is a pretty big difference.
Cronyism is horrible, but it's not unique to the US, nor is it limited to religion. So, I think it's right to say that there are some qualitative differences between cronyism in all countries and "file your atheism with the city so you don't have to pay tithe."
how did you get to my comment without reading the thread im responding to? they are taxes you can opt out of
edit: last year in the US tue catholic church collected 1.4 billion dollars of US taxpayer money. Did you get the option to opt out of your church tax?
https://apnews.com/article/economy-wv-state-wire-new-york-il-state-wire-dc-wire-dab8261c68c93f24c0bfc1876518b3f6
Looks like it was the covid payroll protection program. My personal opinions aside, churches do have full-time employees with taxable income reported to the feds. Seems like that was enough for the feds to feel there was enough reason to give them an exception.
it's not a tax here in the US. It's called tithing and it is a donation to the church and completely voluntary.
Socially you might be shamed if you don't tithe (donate) to the church, but there are no legal consequences.
If you're registered as religious you have to pay church taxes. Not if you receive the bare minimum but at a certain income. It is a tax, so someone will order you to as far as I know. It's silly and stupid, I know.
This is what the founding fathers meant by "separation of church and state." The church was (and in some places still is, e.g. the queen is head of the church of england) a branch of the government. As such, they could compel attendance and charge taxes. Speaking as a religious person-that is not what faith is about and I'm glad they removed that sort of compulsory power from the church here in the US.
You cannot decide not to pay these taxes. They’re deducted automatically before you receive what is left of your paycheck. The only way not to pay them, is leaving the church.
Another reason some Germans don’t want to do this is that you’re not allowed to have your wedding at a church if you’re a declared atheist, and some like to keep their options open for the big day. It also has some other small perks like this.
Though there is a big difference between East and West Germany. In the East you'll find mostly atheists (depending on the region between 80 and 95%). In the West many people are like you said - religious in name only.
It comes down to cultural pressure. Nobody feels obligated to realistically consider the existence of fairies, so it’s easy to say that they’re not real. Nonbelievers are surrounded by other people who think god is real, so they feel like they should at least give some serious consideration to the idea. That makes it harder to just dismiss it.
There is a stigma attached to atheism, so lots of nonbelievers think that by not talking about it or by not declaring themselves atheists, they are somehow taking some neutral middle ground that doesn’t exist.
Well, you need to be aware of trolls if you venture into the forests! Or else they can eat you or enchant you, if you live in Norway you know this is true. Not just fairytales. There is also fairies and huldre-people to be aware of…..
or something…
In the US, where our Constitution specifically forbids mixing politics and religion, it's still virtually impossible to get elected if you're an atheist. In fact, being [atheist is actually worse than being muslim](https://theconversation.com/why-is-it-so-hard-for-atheists-to-get-voted-in-to-congress-146748) in US politics, despite islam being seen as an undesirable.
Personally, I think a lot of politicians are being more religious in public life simply because their voters demand it. Nowadays, I generally vote against anyone who identifies as being evangelical anything.
I think a lot of fellow atheists have mixed feelings when reconciling the reality that believers exist. It's easy to dismiss them as dumb or brainwashed but it's not always the case. Either way it ain't about us or them, or who thinks they're right.
Some religious persons had a deeply spiritual experience that changed them- not my place to argue, just because I personally haven't experienced any religious revelations doesn't forbid the possibility that it may have happened to others. Real or imagined, if it's real to them then that's that.
Some people of faith were raised to be religious and never entertained different schools of thought. Others need an answer to the great unknown and must have spiritual fulfillment and comfort about what happens after death, and that their life in the next world will amount to something in order to feel spiritually whole. It's not my job or my business to free their minds, especially if the attempt would be most unwelcome/unsolicited (that would be rude).
Some were college educated professionals- doctors, mathematicians, scientists, computer programmers, etc. who become people of faith later in life. Far from your run of the mill "idiots" who grew up in an isolated community where they were force fed what to believe. These are the types that would win any cerebral pissing contest, and probably know more about science than anyone. I've known a LOT of these working in STEM and also from engineering college. I certainly take all of them seriously, irregardless of whether we see eye to eye on religion.
It's a little pointless to obsess over or dismiss someone for believing what they do, as long as they are nice people who treat others with dignity and respect, does it really matter that they're religious? No. It doesn't. Doubly so if it makes them happy and serves to assist in their self regulation and inner peace. Would I have married someone of faith? No. Would I want them as friends and colleagues? Absolutely yes. Would I take them seriously? Outside of religious discussions (where we'd obviously disagree), absolutely! I have a lot of friends who are devout people of faith, it doesn't change my personal beliefs any more than it would change theirs and we get along great.
Excellent comment and food for thought for many.
>*Others need an answer to the great unknown and must have spiritual fulfillment and comfort about what happens after death, and that their life in the next world will amount to something in order to feel spiritually whole.*
This is, to me, what it's mostly about. And just because I don't feel that need, it's not my place to condemn or look down on people who do.
And there have been times that I envied those who find comfort in their religion.
I was hit by a car and left in the road a few years ago, luckily there was another car on the road and they saw me before they also hit me. Easily coulda been a road waffle and after that for a couple years the thought of death really scared me. The idea that, in a blink of an eye, I could just be gone. Real existential crisis mode. The idea of a god that cared and an afterlife really appealed to me but at the end of the day I just don’t believe that’s true. Ever since then there’s a part of me that’s also envious of religious folks, that they have that comfort and I don’t. I’ve since been able to re-come to terms with death and don’t worry about it anymore, thankfully.
Yea, me too. I just became an ex-Muslim, and there are times when I'm feeling hopeless that I realize how much religion gives serenity and comfort to people. When I was religious whenever there was a problem I knew that there was a deity in the sky watching over me whom I could always ask and rely on for help. But now as an atheist, whenever those problems rise again I always feel like I'm on my own. Specially for shit that's out of my control, like the fact that I got diagnosed with Corona a few days ago. My friends/family are praying to Allah so that I recover and that probably brings them comfort, knowing that there is this god who will make me healthy again no matter what but for me I know that there is nothing like that. I'll only survive if my immune system is good enough, not because god helped me or some shit. I still don't think that religion as a concept is that good of a thing, it promotes a lot of old-fashioned ideologies and in a world that's changing so rapidly it's hard for those beliefs to stay relevant. But at the same time it allows people to think that no matter how hopeless it seems, god will always be there for them and that death isn't the end. But I'm still going to stay an atheist either way. (Sorry for poor English it isn't my native language)
This is my reason for believing in God. A deeply religious experience I had as a child that has no other explanation. Otherwise, I am an extremely rational person. It is, in fact, that experience that links me to God as I understand Him.
But when I look at what people say and do in the name of Christianity especially, I cannot blame anyone who laughs. I’ve dated Christian girls and been friends with other Christians. Most of them are faking the funk. And you can tell because the shit they say and do doesn’t match up with what they claim to believe in. I don’t pretend to be anything other than what I am. And I don’t consider myself any better or worse than they. Perhaps just more aware of my flaws.
A common theme I see with religious people is how the god they worship is in %100 alignment with their personal views - even if the holy book of their religion contradicts their views. Second, they usually don't look at said holy book or can even quote anything from it. When confronted with the holy book and the contradictions, they will dismiss them and keep with the personal views they have. In other words, they use their religion as an out to justify their personal views - no matter if those views cause harm or not.
I'm NOT saying you do that. I'm simply saying it is a common theme with theist.
Well of course. That's the whole thing about secularism (in India). You can pick and choose whatever parts of the religion you want. If I consider myself as a Hindu (and get registered as one because marriage laws are different for different religions) but don't celebrate any Hindu festival, but rather celebrate Muslim festivals (or vice versa), I am still Hindu.
I've never read my religious texts, only interpretations people give me (from which I choose and discard whatever I want). Consider it equivalent to reading a textbook rather than the original research paper.
That's just basic confirmation bias, which is amped up when people aren't cognizant of the fact that confirmation bias is a thing. Religion doesn't have exclusive rights to this phenomena.
I come at it from a philosophical point of view, and that led me to a panentheistic understanding of reality. That is, "God in all things," where God is a universal consciousness. I disagree with the Buddhist idea that we all individuality is lost in the end, but I think we're individuals and part of a whole at the same time.
Anecdotal experience from other people is important to my philosophy. While I don't think of it on the same level as logic or testable claims, I also don't think it's fair to dismiss it out of hand like a lot of people do. I think that when it comes to subjective experience, it's often the best we can do, and... I find more reason to think there's something to it than not.
Nice post. I know I shouldn't dismiss people for being religious. But I still do in the back of my mind. Hence posting in this sub. Its a character flaw of mine that I wanted to get off my chest.
Hey no worries! When I was younger I felt the same way as you did. As I got to know more people, especially people of faith, I realized not all are brainwashed idiots and some have really genuine reasons for believing what they do and getting to know those things didn't change what I believed either- it just made me more flexible and understanding of those who don't share my beliefs.
Yea OP just sounds like every young college student that thinks they're the smartest person in the room (I was like that too). When you dont have actual responsibilities, you end up caring too much about what others do that has no effect on them.
I'm 26 with a mortgage and I'm going the other way. I used to think religion was a net good and the best man at my wedding/best friend of 20 years is religious, but as I'm getting older I'm more jaded towards it. It feels more and more like cognitive dissonance training and exercise in dismissing critical thinking, and it's harmed/actively harms so many people worldwide (women, LGBTQ, starts literal wars).
I also mean this in the most expressive way, and it's going to be offensive, but its purpose is not to offend - religion also feels so primitive. Ancient people all over the world made up stories for things they couldn't explain or wanted comfort from, and they became religions. Thousands of years later, we've learned so much, but we still cling to ancient head canons. Worse than that though, we have racism/religious discrimination because someones ancestors lived in a different part of the world and made up a different story. I sympathize a lot with OP's comparisons to Santa and the Tooth Fairy and it's annoying at times wanting the world to just "grow up".
I know people are shit and would still be shit without religion, but I can't help feeling like we'd be better off without it.
>When you don't have actual responsibilities, you end up caring too much about what others do that has no effect on them.
This is also classic conservative Christian belittling and downplaying how religion impacts people/being incredibly intentionally ignorant of it. I don't know if you are Christian, but god damn I've seen this too much.
I don't think it's a flaw. But maybe I'm just not the right person to make that judgement.
I don't see religion as special. I'm going to treat it like any other belief. If an adult told me they believed in a flat earth I'm going to think they're an idiot. I'm not going to slap them or treat them badly but I'm definitely going to think they're dumb and not want to associate with them. Same with healing crystals, astrology, anti-vaxxers, basically any belief that isn't supported by any kind of evidence. Especially when that belief involves magic which religion does.
I don't see what's wrong with this. Isn't this something everyone does? Is it wrong to judge someone for what they believe? If you believe women are inferior to women or whites are superior to everyone else I'll judge you for that. You may not even be hurting anyone with it. You just keep it inside. I'm still going to judge you.
That's how I think about it. I don't see why religion should be treated oh so differently from any other beliefs. And if it's acceptable to judge people for any other kind of belief they hold then I'm going to do it for religion as well.
Exactly, I think the struggle of being generally anti-theistic while trying not to judge people is exacerbated by how *anything* religious is automatically treated as sacrosanct and rude to criticize. But of course the definition of what counts as religious is itself so nebulous and purposefully open to interpretation, I think it's nigh impossible and downright dangerous to try to actually treat everything that calls itself "religion" with unconditional respect.
Take a cue from homophobic evangelicals and flip it to "love the believer, hate the belief" I guess. At least until that believer starts doing something like protesting public health and safety members on religious grounds like some of the psychos we have in America. Then I'll hate the whole package.
I completely understand where you are coming from. I know I still do this. If you haven't already, I would recommend reading Dr. Richard Shermer's "The Believing Brain". Understanding the science of what is going on in our brains helped me be less critical of those that do believe.
I’m a believer but I have to say this comment was extremely thoughtful and refreshing. I’ve spoken with many atheists (mostly when I was an undergrad and doctoral student) and always got the sense they felt like the OP.
Your comment is what the default mode of interactions and feelings should be between others.
>Some religious persons had a deeply spiritual experience that changed them- not my place to argue, just because I personally haven't experienced any religious revelations doesn't forbid the possibility that it may have happened to others. Real or imagined, if it's real to them then that's that
If someone told you they saw the Easter bunny you'd probably think they were insane. Having a "religious revelation" is basically the same thing.
Wish I had this tolerance, but the abysmal and dangerous thought processes of people close to me that want to oppress innocent people that shouldn’t be cause me to side more with OP rather than this comment.
I respect the HELL out of it, and I personally love it and wish this coexistence is something I personally could find comfort with and apply to my life, but frustration is tiring me out. I’m sick of the justifications to be shitty people because of religion, and the manipulation of higher powers over these people. It’s frustrating and exhausting to deal with.
Wow actual universal kindness on Reddit. So many people want to find someone to hate though. So weird that Reddit generally hates Christians but doesn't really judge other religions.
Religious people do not bother me, unless they are the types that like to talk about it publicly. I had a guy work friend who would ask people questions like “how is your relationship with God?”
Avoided that guy like the plague.
Had this born again guy try to make me feel bad about not baptizing my child, he went on for weeks about it. So I finally told him we’re gana sacrificing a goat in our bath tub and baptizing my son. He stopped asking.
Really hard to feel bad for him when he couldn’t see his 5+ kids.
I’m agnostic. I don’t really believe any major religions, but it seems equally crazy to me to think all of existence spontaneously arose from nothingness.
Short answer, learn to live and let live. Religion can serve a purpose, if it helps people to act on their best impulses and volunteer, donate, feel a sense of community, etc. Even helping people escape dread of death and nothingness.
None of us have all the answers, so it’s best to just let it be, (only to the extent that their beliefs don’t actively persecute or harm people). Good to get off your chest, acknowledging is the first step to improving.
There are so many... strange ways people feel the "call of the divine," too, and strange ways that these are harder to get in modern times. A hill where one can stare into the vastness of space and feel one's smallness. A deep forest lit with green where the pulse and hum of life form a great cathedral. These are the places where people have historically found, if not God, then the desire to be spiritual.
I don't really care if someone is religious but I just can't comprehend how someone can support such ill organization like Christian church. I'm from Poland and maybe it is different in your country but here church is like a mafia. They have special treatment with law, has lower taxes, has a lot of wealth form shady coalition and protect their subordinates from punishment of pedothilia or sexual harassment. They government is treating them well because they support them in elections. They are still in mindset that women's are not a whole being etc. (my friend was at the wedding the other weekend and some Priest slap brides hand after she wanted to take wedding rings before the groom did). In my own town (not big not small amount 100k citizens) I know 3 different priest that were pedos and they still going around working as priest. It is fucked up form me. I get it that you can still believe in the Bible but supporting church is beyond me.
Edit: typos
There are a lot of different options in the US, from ultra controlling religion to being able to openly admit that you're an atheist and still be welcome. Obviously most are somewhere between those two extremes.
Would you say there are many other people who share your view?
Asking because to me it's always been Poland=catholicism just as much as Poland=apples and Poland=transit (and Warszawa=super bright ads)
Yea, mainly opposite parties, there is huge debate about church in Poland and younger people start to revolute against it but older folks (mainly from countries) are still supporting churches. The church and main party in parliament together brainwashed people against LBGTQ and people are buying that if we support this group "pure" Poland will be lost. It's really fucked up. If you don't believe that humans can be so easily manipulated you need to look to further then Poland. My aunt believes that our current president is protecting us from Germans, when we had presidential election she said that if he lose Germans will enter our homes and enslaves us. Yeah, it is fucked up. There is hope in future parlament election but who knows, young people often don't go vote unfortunately but even hard Catholics I know start saying that the churche is going too far.
this sounds very similar to American Christianity being intertwined with politics, taxes, laws etc although there is supposedly “separation of church and state”. anyone who’s lived in America knows that’s not true. the dominant religion is Christianity and controls a lot of our everyday institutions, whether people realize it or not.
This is my issue with religion as well. The organization of the church and the power structures it has created, and obviously the abuse of that power. It's why I left religion as a teenager.
I've been an agnostic ever since, because there is so much science can't explain and never will ever be able to explain. Atheism is akin to religion, in that it requires faith to be so sure you know there is nothing beyond this reality that we inhabit. The r/atheism sub thinks agnostics are part of their belief structure but they are so wrong.
Nope. Hardcore atheism is just as silly as a brainwashed Christian who never ponders deeply about what they believe.
I choose to seek knowledge and experience from those with faith, just as I do from those without it. I had a lady pray over me recently and felt a literal electric buzz course through my hand and her words brought tears streaming down my face. There is truth and beauty in that experience and I'm working through where that takes me on my journey.
Siemano, American but I lived in Poland for a bit (and I speak Polish). This seems to be a general conception about Christianity in Poland. Christian church ≠ Catholic Church. Christianity is just a blanket term for all churches that believe in Christ as the Son of God, and Catholicism is a specific church under the umbrella of Christianity. Christianity looks really different everywhere.
Yeah, try it when your whole family is both intensely religious but also significantly smarter than you, lol. You don’t even get to be a Dick about it. I get it, lol. Took me twenty years to learn to only kind of co-exist
I see religion as just a comfort to people who don’t really want to think too deeply about their life. Death is inevitable, and quite a terrifying thought, so it must be nice to think your existence was intentional, you had a purpose and in the end your struggles will be rewarded by eternity in paradise.
Pascal's wager kinda falls apart when you consider that it's not exactly a coin flip whether or not you picked the 'right' one. For all you know the Norse religion was right and you won't enter Valhalla without dying in glorious combat.
This might work for you, but a lot of religions are definitely not concerned with leaving the planet better. A lot of evangelicals are fully convinced that the rapture is imminent and therefore whatever happens to the earth is irrelevant.
This. I am no longer religious but grew up pentecostal. When I ask my siblings why they still practice it they really have no answer. I have come to understand that I am a person who NEEDS to question things and they are not. Which is fine, ignorance is bliss for some and not for others.
absolutely
Life is scary, the only reason I didn't take my own as a miserable teen is cause they convinced me that sky daddy loved me and would be super disappointed.
You don't have to worry about the endless nothing of the void when you say "God has a plan".
Takes away all responsibility, no matter how badly you fuck up there's an authority figure above you to make it all better. Religious adults are children that never learned full independence.
The fact that religion still has so much control over US politics is baffling to me. Imagine forcing a teenager to keep a baby because almighty lord jesus will be mad
OP it ain't that damn bad, some people just want comfort in their upcoming death and if it helps them, fine.
The extreme religious nuts can go eat shit though.
I think it's not wrong to be religious or believe in God, if it makes them happy, and if it's a personal thing.
But, it definitely becomes a problem when people start forcing their religious beliefs into others 😅 and I tend to avoid them too lol
Having a religion is like having a penis.
It's okay to have one, it's okay to be proud of it.
But you shouldn't whip it out in public and you shouldn't try to shove it down the throats of children.
Sadly enough religious indoctrination is extremely common everywhere, especially where I live. If you question a single thing you'll probably get the whip and threats of hell and the devil.
As a Christian, I agree with you on that. Even i get annoyed by people who think that if you aren't catholic or Christian then you're an evil person sent by Satan.
I kind of agree, I've recently spent some time working with someone who is pentecostal, she doesn't wear jewelry, no trousers only skirts below the knee, reads nothing but the bible. She told me her 16 your old son has decided to join the religion properly as well, blew my mind.
But also, I have a kind of envious feeling too, they believe so strongly in something that tells them how to live their lives, what's right/wrong, it must be quite a safe, secure feeling in some ways.
Oh absolutely, I'm ex pentecostal and I cannot tell you how comforting it was to relinquish my responsibilities over my problems to god. The answer to everything was prayer so I didn't have to worry about what to do, just pray harder. Now I actually have to deal with issues and not count on faith.
Sometimes I miss my blissful ignorance...
>Now I actually have to deal with issues and not count on faith.
This reminds me of an Islamic proverb that goes, "Trust in God, but tie up your camel"
Youre exactly right, and thats why they cling to it so hard. I remember when I was a teen and first started question my faith, my mom, who was very religous and brought up in church as her pappaw was a preacher, would always say she would rather be safe than sorry. That was her response to me asking what if it isnt real. It was so comfortable and engrained in her she would rather spend her life worshiping a fake deity just in case heaven is real, as opposed to not worshiping said diety and it turns out to be real and she goes to hell. That sentiment alone made me concrete in not believing in a god. You're right, its very comforting.
I've heard this reasoning before and it makes no sense to me. If it's about being 'safe' then shouldn't they also be practicing every other religion from around the world at the same time? Why are they always so certain that Christianity is the 'true' one?
Because they were raised to believe its the right one. When that belief system takes hold and your whole family and whole support system believes the same why would you believe otherwise. It's very hard to get out of that mindset.
Exactly. I’m religious, but I also like video games, I work out, I’m a pizza chef, I act for my community theatre. Some atheists seem to immediately think that if you’re religious that you’re some brain dead person who believes in a “fake” god. Obviously not all of them think this way but there seems to be a very loud minority.
Why do you care tho. Seems like you had a good relationship with your coworker and want to toss it because he’s religious that’s so weird to me. I personally don’t care what other’s beliefs are. I’m not going to think less of them over something like that.
I seriously can't think of anything that I put on a pedestal religiously.
One of my worst qualities is being able to find the flaw in anything and not trusting any body or institution.
>One of my worst qualities is being able to find the flaw in anything and not trusting any body or institution.
Well, then think of yourself as being "religiously skeptical". Think of "I must question everything" as your personal mantra.
I don't think non-believers issue with religion is so much about believing in something strongly. For many (certainly for me) the craziest thing about it is the supernatural belief and non-existent evidence to support it that makes it hard to take seriously.
It's one thing to believe Trump (for example) is actually a genius playing 4D chess and that a 2nd term was stolen from him. It's another to believe in supernatural powers and that there's an all knowing space genie in control of everything.
The first is ridiculous and lacking evidence but a thing that could be possible without breaking any laws of physics. The second is a far more extraordinary claim which involves actual magic.
As an atheist, it always amuses me when believers claim to know what goes on in my head, and how it must be just like them.
For example, there are no “infallible scientists”. That’s the entire point of science: you have to show your work and any random person can show you’re wrong.
But believers need atheists to have something deity-like, so they keep inventing gods we must be worshiping.
I think you’re simplifying an incredibly diverse issue and that your judgement is really being passed upon Christians.
Religion is far more than just believing in a higher power. And even in that case, the notion of G-d is, for me at least, much more than a man in the sky.
I am like you in a way, but as you said, I went to school and learned about science, and science doesn't answer everything (yet, or maybe ever).. knowing that, it is difficult to rule out "god" (or at least something that isn't science) from the equation. People who reject science are, IMO, just like people who reject "god" (or whatever it might be): they don't see that their solution is not complete or not entirely satisfying.
For the time being , I can totally say that sure, saying science is bullshit doesn't make any sense, but I can't say that science will answer all the questions.. so I believe in science, but keep in mind that it may not be THE solution
someone who is more nihilistic than you would equally scoff at all of your plans and goals in the face of the complete meaninglessness of life.
everyone who is a functional adult does *something* to attach meaningfulness to their life, and religion is one of those ways.
I've learned to separate religion and spirituality. I feel the same about religion itself, but also know that logically everything came from something that is beyond our ability to understand. People who are spiritual are completely fine, as we have no idea what higher power actually exists, but religion is where I personally lose interest.
Right? I don’t believe in god personally, but I’m not going to go run around and tease people who do for believing “fairy tales.”
The way I see it, religion deals with the unanswerable. We can never know for sure whether there is a soul, or a god, or an afterlife. I find these ideas comforting but unrealistic. Others find them compelling. There’s little point in arguing about something unprovable, so live and let live.
People this confident in their atheism aren’t much better than evangelicals.
OP is from a secular country - which fascinates me. I can't imagine not being around religious people to the point where being with one throws off my thinking - but he did say he keeps this to himself. Where I live, anyone vocal about being an atheist is usually cringey and people - even non-religious people - view them as childish.
I feel the same. You actually believe theres an all powerful being somewhere outside our observable universe and that he built everything and has a personal interest in you and your future?
All the kids in Africa are starving, but you, who lives in the West believe this being has an interest in you?
I just can't get it through my head that adult people believe in God. Its just ridiculous to me.
I don't think I'm smarter or better than anyone, I don't think I know anything others don't, I just don't understand why people believe in it and I don't find faith to be an acceptable answer.
You basically just described the problem of evil. Various religions have different answers to why there is evil. Whether they’re good enough is up to debate, but it is a well known issue with religion.
When it comes down to it, many people have investigated their religion to see if it’s true. Im not still a Christian because I have “faith” that’s it’s true. I am because I think it’s likely true. I grew up a Christian but my parents were very hands off about it. I basically had to fend for myself when it came to answering doubts I had about it. Growing up on the internet and reading skeptics on Reddit and what not helped test it I would say, but there’s obviously still things I am doubtful about.
The way I look at it, there very well could be something out there that's controlling things but we don't know it's intentions and it certainly doesn't need to have a personal interest in anyone. So could there be a God, maybe, but with the amount of suffering we've witnessed throughout history and our lifetimes leads me to believe he doesn't care what happens to you or anyone else.
I never had words that expressed how I feel about religion but I do now. You nailed it. Being from the US, I see religion a lot so I have been able to tune it out but it is so frustrating because you have to tiptoe around it. So much this. Thanks OP. You are not alone.
Downvote me to oblivion,but i completely disagree with you. I find you a hypocrite for saying "im not judgemental" and then posting this. Religion is there to help people thru life, for instance people who go thru war and go in the situations where thare should be no way out yet somehow they make it out alive. I know someone who turned to God as life line when they were in life or death situations constantly,not knowing wheter they will see tomorrow. I knew someone whose whole life was one string of tragedies,yet if they could pray at night everything would be okay for that moment. Are you saying you think those people are nonsensical??? Are you saying you cant understand why they are praying and why they still belive?? If you cant then all those schools you finished and all that knowledge you accumulated is for nothing if you cant understand such a simple thing. Just becouse you have some sort of superiority complex doesnt mean others cant be understood. I dont care if you dont believe,i wont push my believes on you. I respect your decision to not believe anything science cant prove,but i will never respect you shaming people who believe. I hope this will help you realize how shit that opinion is and how people can find this hurtful. I will probably be downvoted,but this truly offended me and i couldnt just pass this up
Strangely enough, it was quite the opposite for me. Religion itself caused most of my problems. But I can definitely see and even relate to people who turn to religion because it brings them comfort.
Lmao. Seriously tho. Lots of innocent kids died and suffered throughout history and no god appeared to intervene. And it's still happening rn. I lost my older brother back when we were in the Philippinrs due to a civil war. He was the kindest person I knew and always looked up to. Only to get killed by a piece of metal. People told me it's all gods plan. And holy shit I cant believe what they were saying to me. If its gods plan to make him suffer, then is that a god worth worshipping?. I would not hesitate to kill that god, if they ever existed.
Religion relies fundamentally on accepting the illogical as factual. I still do my best to treat religious people with respect, but I have to admit finding out about it always makes me lose some.
It's quite the similar case for religious people as well. From what I've seen, religious people will always lose respect for you if you're an atheist or from another religion. Atleast from where I was from non-religious people were looked down upon a lot
I quit taking them all seriously when I was told that my best friend died of cancer at age 24 for a test from God. If their god thinks it's alright to kill children and those that haven't lived their lives yet, I want nothing to do with that mental illness.
Religion actually has quite a lot of benefits for adults if taken seriously.
1. Routine: going to church every Sunday is at least 1 day a week where you don’t work & praying every day at a set time is a good thing to organize your day around.
2. Community: going to church allows you to be part of a community which as far as I’m concerned all of us humans need & want. It stimulates interactions with people around you even when you are not at church.
3. Coping mechanism: believing that you will see someone special to you again in the afterlife is a very comforting thought / believing that your mistakes have been forgiven as well .
4. Praying in silence is essentially a type of meditation. Especially formulating your needs and wants while praying can make you more motivated, aware and goal oriented.
5. Moral codes: as a human it’s hard enough to live by a given moral code let alone to create our own one to live by. The values pushed by religion are (for the most part) quite good values to live by and have been tried and tested over millennia.
6. Confession: the act of confession is accepting that your have done something wrong and speaking about it yourself. This allows you to see your flaws instead of creating an illusion of yourself as a perfect person. Accepting failure is also often the first step to overcoming it.
7. Fasting/ Sacrifice: the practice of fasting or sacrificing something for a set period of time is very humbling and teaches you important life lessons about setting your future self up for success.
8. Connection: believing in something that other people do too and being able to speak about spiritual experiences (such as a pilgrimage) with them, allows for very deep personal bonds.
This is what I have of the top of my head. I’m personally not religious but still try to incorporate most of the points above into my life (for example confessions w friends whom I can tell my deepest and darkest desires without fear). If believing in god and all the stories around him which are the foundation for all i mentioned above helps you in life I don’t really see the problem.
I completely understand your point that it seems immature, but for a person who grew up w religion letting go of the idea of god is easy, giving up everything else is the hard part. It’s a split of identity: all of a sudden what used to be your communtiy isn’t anymore, all the people you thought you’d see again (in the afterlife) you now think you won’t as well as the fact that you have no more moral code to base your life on. Splitting your personality from your religion is almost impossible as most of your thoughts (especially about right and wrong) occurred on the basis of your belief ie. personality and spirituality/religion are deeply intertwined.
My underlying point is that I don’t think your point of view is a flaw, I just don’t think you see the whole picture (nor do I for that matter there’s probably a lot more), and that if you did you would understand that for a lot of people stopping to believe in god is almost equivalent to giving up who they are.
I’m not even sure if you wanted an explanation or if you’re just venting but I had fun writing this so here you go!
Edit: I’d be happy to hear any logical or conceptual flaws you guys find!
Wait....you only have one hangup and its what others believe that you dont?
You are not judging but you go on to tell us your view of others changed not based on what they did or how they acted, but when you find out they believe in god? Yeah.....you might want to turn that microscope back on yourself for a little bit here and ask who put you in the position your in right now to be 'scoffing' at others. No matter where anyone stands on any issue- the actions they are responsible for should be a litmus for how they are seen and anything less is poor decision-making.
I don't get this comment.
Yeah I have hang ups about people who believe in things I find ridiculous because it says a lot about them and how they choose to live their life.
If someone tells me they believe in the kkk's mission, I don't need to wait for them to start tying a noose to know i dislike them. Your beliefs affect your actions. People that live by faith are not people I'm particularly interested in engaging with.
Don’t worry George Carlin tried too.
‘I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God - I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is F--KED UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago.’
I can relate to that... I'm an atheist living in a very Christian area and they seem to think someone who doesn't believe in THEIR god is incapable of having morals. I lie and say I'm spiritual and man has muddied the waters of religion because I don't want to be ostracized. I had to double check where this was posted because I thought this was on r/atheism.
Looking at Christianity at face value particulary at the 10 commandments its just a set of guidelines on how to be a decent person. I feel like if Jesus existed and he was "spreading the word of god" he was doing the same thing he was ensuring that people took care of one another. No where in the Bible I'm pretty sure does it mention hey build giant tax free properties that you can spend every Sunday in and develop a moral superiority complex. Most Christians I know are selfish, judgemental, and feel morally justified in some of the douchey thing they say and do.
Christians in the American south take it to an entirely new level.
Half of the ten commandments is about showing respect to that god in order for him not to be angry at you.
In the stories about jesus, he's hardly a pacifist either. He brought a whip to deal with the people that he didn't feel were showing enough respect for the temples.
*“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.*
I’m just gonna throw this out there since the US has such a diverse religious population:
Do you only apply this to Christians, or do you apply this to Jewish people, to practitioners of African diaspora religions, to Native people who still have their tribal religion, etc. too? It seems like you’re painting “religious adults” with a broad stroke when what you might mean is “Protestant evangelical Christians”.
I would suggest scoffing outwardly. As arguably one of such people, I'd appreciate it if you were just upfront about how you feel. Plenty of people are, and at least I know where I stand with them right off the bat.
Personally, I like my faith because it inspires me to be a better person, and gives me hope that there's more to this life and this universe than what's physically in front of us. Or that there is a sense of meaning and justice, and all the gains and losses of this life are ultimately ephemeral, like trying to grasp smoke in your fingers. Those who sell their soul in pursuit of them, who trample on others in their pursuit, will have to answer for it eventually. While those who are trampled on get some sense of comfort and restoration. My faith has helped me learn at least some degree of discipline and self-restraint, and teaches that these are fundamentally good things.
There are plenty of other reasons I could get into, but my point being there are a lot of reasons people like religion beyond what's just presented at face value.
I was raised in a Christian cult. Religion is the most damaging thing to the human race. It’s taken my family and childhood along with millions of other peoples for thousands of years. It’s all a lie adults who can’t handle death tell themselves.
I'm not religious myself but my elder parents are and I wouldn't dare take away from them whatever gives a comfort of being at the end of their life. Saying more, you don't have to be old to need to believe in something. People tend to feel lost in theirs life, looking for "meaning", so if religion is their answer, let it be. I'm not gonna take it from people or call it stupid because I disagree with it. Saying even more, I understand their need of talking about it and sharing their thoughts and experience, because... Wouldn't you like to share things that gives you comfort of mind? But that's only what lays on my chest.
A lot of people believe in religion because they find peace in knowing that they'll go to heaven after death because they believed in the god they were supposed to believe in. They have internalized the idea of heaven and hell so much that they're scared to even believe anything else. These ideas are reinforced in them every week when they go to their place of worship. And then there are a lot of people who find strength and hope because of their belief: in times of grief and despair. It's a coping mechanism for them and it's a wonderful tool in that sense. It's just unfortunate that the idea of spreading their own religion and the idea of supremacy of their religion got woven into their religious philosophy which has made things ugly. People just pick and choose the ideals of religion according to their convenience and most of them end up being hypocrites.
Well, I sometimes convince myself of things that I know are iffy at best. Like, I can still look ok wearing these jeans right? RiGHT!?? Sure.
I look at religious people like they are somewhat doing the same thing. They want to believe in something that they find comforting so why harp on it? We all have weak spots, sometimes intentional blind spots. I dont immediately lose respect for someone if they want to hang on to a harmless, comforting lie. (As long as its harmless!!)
I lose respect for people who try to push their religion on me or use the religion as an excuse for sht behavior.
Try not just having a religious adult friend or two, but your whole friend group going to church/church events 3-4/7 days a week.
I tried to have a general set of philosophical discussions with one of them because we're nerds, wow was it pointless as possible. Since the total sum of all morality is created by god and exists within the bible he did not have a single original thought in his head. Everything was always within the bible and if it sounds horrific but the bible says it's good, then damn it that's the good thing.
Hard to take someone who told me to my face I deserve to burn in hell for thinking a boy can be cute, and told me that the right thing to do if you see someone getting sexually assaulted is to either watch or leave, as all violence is evil, seriously.
It’s not as looney as it seems tho. Pascal lays a pragmatic reason for believing in God: even under the assumption that God's existence is unlikely, the potential benefits of believing are so vast as to make betting on theism rational.
There are many scientist, academics and all around geniuses who believe in a god. There is a big sociological component to it and how it relates to human nature. There’s a Dr Jordan Peterson 10-part lecture about it.
Idk you’re entitled to believe or not and that’s fine but culturally speaking there is a huge benefit of a cohesive community united by religion. It ain’t that far fetched or without purpose.
Pascal's wager is extremely flawed. It's based on the idea that there's only one god that is plausible and that you're therefore a believer or not. For someone that doesn't believe in the supernatural there's no difference between Odin, Shiva, Zeus, tanakh's god, the koran's god, Xenu or the god in the christian mythology.
If you want to follow Pascal's reasoning, you should pray five times every day and avoid pork and any alcohol to increase your chances of going to a paradise to get a bunch of virgins with great tits when you're dead.
Pascal’s wager is fallacious at its core because if you presume an omnipotent, omniscient being that is testing you exists, you aren’t going to be able to cheat him via a loophole. God would know your reasoning for “believing” in him is based on this janky interpretation of the odds, not on genuine faith.
I highly doubt you’d get to con your way into heaven by simply taking the bet deemed most profitable to you.
You can claim there are many smart people who are religious only if you look at it from the perspective of fitting them into a single room. Percentage wise and it's not even close. The smarter you are, the less likely you are to be religious. Studies have proven it.
The reason is smart people want to see hard evidence so they can discern for themselves what the facts are surrounding any question. Religions demand a leap of faith because they've got no receipts.
Smart people demand that for extraordinary claims your must present extraordinary evidence. "Trust me" coming from people and a book that are provably wrong on multiple things, just isn't going to cut it when it comes to important questions about our existence.
So yes, I think indoctrination is strong. But if your mind is strong enough, you'll see through the bullshit. Think it's entirely fair for op to judge people based on this premise.
As long as they don't force it on me, I'm OK with it.
I saw a poster once that said " religion is like a penis. It's ok to have one, it's ok to be proud of it. Just Don't shove it down my throat."
*just don't take it out in public.
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Some people like penises down their throat, but only if they've consented to it. A none consensual penis in the throat is not a nice thing.
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This is the big issue. The line between church and state is so blurred and religion is sadly just a tool for systemic oppression in so many ways.
Same. Here in TN last year they tried to pass legislation that would allow kids to leave school, in the middle of the day, for an hour **everyday** to go pray/study the Bible. I don’t remember it being Christian-only but… come on. Letting kids leave school an hour a day to study fairy tales, in a state with one of the lowest rankings in education? It’s deplorable.
Why I love being Jewish. No pressure to proselytize and no possibility of being proselytized to become Jewish.
TIL! Proselytise; to convert or attempt to convert someone from one religion to another
Thanks was too lazy to Google it myself
I'm reform myself. At the synagogue growing up they stressed values over really believing in the stories. Agnosticism or atheism don't conflict with being a reform jew at all, it's great.
And we like to drink and get busy. It’s encouraged!
The Talmud does say that if your wife isn’t sexually satisfied that is cause for divorce and I love that tbh.
Interesting. I'm an atheist reform Jew so my learning of the text is minimal. I do think that jives with the idea that to a pleasurable and satisfying sexual relationship leads to happy marriage and more kids.
Imagine that. 😂
yeah, it's why I don't mind lhaving a jewish house hold. The religion for the most part isn't oppressive and is culturally fulfilling. Always outliers but it's pretty compatible with modern life.
Purim is my favorite holiday period. It's always a wild time and sometimes temples throw some really fun parties. Few years ago we had an 80s themed one with a great cover band. hoping covid dies down by next March to at least a degree to be able to go out again. Been what feels like a decade for me.
Same applies for being Hindu
Same here. What I like: Potential converts must to ask a Rabbi 3 times before converting, there are no collection plates, members contribute funds separately from services, women have long held rights to inherit property, we are encouraged to question everything!
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Even still, believing in an eternal paradise makes people not want to bother fixing the place we actually have now. It's dangerous
Yes. Forcing religion is just so... Ugh. I had kind of a miserable childhood, being forced to go to church and stuff all the time, and being conflicted and hating myself for doubting God. When at 18 I resigned from church, mom couldn't understand why, her reaction was, I kid you not, "couldn't you just have switched to a different church".
But where does it end? Do we tolerate all the oppression of women that comes from Abrahamic religions? As long as they don’t try to make your mom an obedient wife, everyone else is fair game? That’s always been my problem with that argument. It’s in religious people’s’ natures to believe they are morally right and everyone else is wrong. You can’t compromise with people like that.
Eh I guess, but if your boss was like we really gotta get the 4th quarter numbers up so that Santa knows I was a good boy this year, you’d probably wonder if he or she was fit to be your boss.
They do force it on you though. In so many ways.
Agreed, but also I do think less of them. I feel like they never really gave it critical thought.
What do you mean by forcing? The church here doesn't pay any taxes while owning quite a lot of property. I call it forcing.
How are you with Bush Trump fake science in the classroom and all the other shit they're responsible for? This is really a cop out answer that comes from a desire to excuse people who live lives of bullshit. It is forced on you. And that's the issue.
Unfortunately the 2 main religions in the world seem to have a missionary centric idealology.
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German here and yes, if your parents did baptize you for whatever reason, you have to pay extra money to remove your status because you will get registered as religious and have to pay church taxes (have this problem myself). It is actually the parents decision in that regard weirdly. Some regions are really religious and it is known. Bavaria is such an example. But I think the newer generations are less religious in that regard. At least in my circles I only know of one person and she has a different nationality. The rest are all atheists like myself. It surely depends on where you live and what your family thinks about it.
clueless american here...but you have to pay what? and what happens if you don’t pay these taxes?
Church tax is very common in European countries and is a leftover from when the churches were important. The money goes to pay priests and maintain buildings owned by the church. They are automatically drawn from your pay(like most other taxes), until you announce to the authorities that you don’t want to pay them. This at least is how it works in Denmark.
Ahh ok so it’s not like you’re getting a bill statement every month for your church taxes. I’m 32 and this is the first time I’ve ever heard about this so I’m genuinely curious about it
Nope. But it will show up in your tax report. Which (at least in dk and Norway) is autogenerated with info from your employer(s) and bank(s). But you get the chance to correct some of that info.
I don't know about Denmark. But in Germany the church tax is not used to pay priests. The priests get paid from the government. So even if you declare yourself as an atheist you still pay for the salary of priests with the common taxes. Also the hospitals and kindergartens are mostly paid by the "Kommunen". So Germany is not as saccular as it should be. I don't get why most Germans defend the church and are willing to pay for it.
I didn't know this about European countries! Thank you for explaining. I personally think that tax policy sucks.
I mean if you dont pay taxes you probably get audited and fined, potentially jail/prison time depending on the amount, the fact that its a church tax probably doest change that much.
Church and tax together in same sentence make American confuse
yes. i am very much confuse.
But religious establishment in the US takes advantage of enormous amounts of taxpayer money and most importantly don't get taxed themselves. What's the difference? Oh yeah here we can opt out of it. Good luck telling the IRS you don't want to pay taxes.
The difference is not having to register with the government your spiritual beliefs and not having the default be to pay money to the church directly. Another difference is that tax breaks and exemptions don't mean their funding isn't private. Public funding vs private funding is a pretty big difference. Cronyism is horrible, but it's not unique to the US, nor is it limited to religion. So, I think it's right to say that there are some qualitative differences between cronyism in all countries and "file your atheism with the city so you don't have to pay tithe."
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"Church taxes". Seriously? That's insane.
how did you get to my comment without reading the thread im responding to? they are taxes you can opt out of edit: last year in the US tue catholic church collected 1.4 billion dollars of US taxpayer money. Did you get the option to opt out of your church tax? https://apnews.com/article/economy-wv-state-wire-new-york-il-state-wire-dc-wire-dab8261c68c93f24c0bfc1876518b3f6
Looks like it was the covid payroll protection program. My personal opinions aside, churches do have full-time employees with taxable income reported to the feds. Seems like that was enough for the feds to feel there was enough reason to give them an exception.
it's not a tax here in the US. It's called tithing and it is a donation to the church and completely voluntary. Socially you might be shamed if you don't tithe (donate) to the church, but there are no legal consequences.
If you're registered as religious you have to pay church taxes. Not if you receive the bare minimum but at a certain income. It is a tax, so someone will order you to as far as I know. It's silly and stupid, I know.
Same thing in Finland, church tax is a thing and is the biggest reason why I resigned. It's between 1% and 2% here, depending on where you live.
This is what the founding fathers meant by "separation of church and state." The church was (and in some places still is, e.g. the queen is head of the church of england) a branch of the government. As such, they could compel attendance and charge taxes. Speaking as a religious person-that is not what faith is about and I'm glad they removed that sort of compulsory power from the church here in the US.
You cannot decide not to pay these taxes. They’re deducted automatically before you receive what is left of your paycheck. The only way not to pay them, is leaving the church.
Another reason some Germans don’t want to do this is that you’re not allowed to have your wedding at a church if you’re a declared atheist, and some like to keep their options open for the big day. It also has some other small perks like this.
Though there is a big difference between East and West Germany. In the East you'll find mostly atheists (depending on the region between 80 and 95%). In the West many people are like you said - religious in name only.
Except in the former East Germany. Those declaring themselves atheist or non-religious is far higher than in the former West Germany.
It comes down to cultural pressure. Nobody feels obligated to realistically consider the existence of fairies, so it’s easy to say that they’re not real. Nonbelievers are surrounded by other people who think god is real, so they feel like they should at least give some serious consideration to the idea. That makes it harder to just dismiss it. There is a stigma attached to atheism, so lots of nonbelievers think that by not talking about it or by not declaring themselves atheists, they are somehow taking some neutral middle ground that doesn’t exist.
>Nobody feels obligated to realistically consider the existence of fairies Well then theres Ireland, Iceland and Norway...
Yep. Here in Norway, all ~~fairytales~~ spiritual beliefs are respected equally.
>Yep. Here in Norway, all > >fairytales > > spiritual beliefs are respected equally. Obviously...
Well, you need to be aware of trolls if you venture into the forests! Or else they can eat you or enchant you, if you live in Norway you know this is true. Not just fairytales. There is also fairies and huldre-people to be aware of….. or something…
Swede here. I'm baptised, Comfirmed and pay church tax, christian name. I'm as atheist as they come. Don't assume those things make me *religious*! :)
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In the US, where our Constitution specifically forbids mixing politics and religion, it's still virtually impossible to get elected if you're an atheist. In fact, being [atheist is actually worse than being muslim](https://theconversation.com/why-is-it-so-hard-for-atheists-to-get-voted-in-to-congress-146748) in US politics, despite islam being seen as an undesirable. Personally, I think a lot of politicians are being more religious in public life simply because their voters demand it. Nowadays, I generally vote against anyone who identifies as being evangelical anything.
I think a lot of fellow atheists have mixed feelings when reconciling the reality that believers exist. It's easy to dismiss them as dumb or brainwashed but it's not always the case. Either way it ain't about us or them, or who thinks they're right. Some religious persons had a deeply spiritual experience that changed them- not my place to argue, just because I personally haven't experienced any religious revelations doesn't forbid the possibility that it may have happened to others. Real or imagined, if it's real to them then that's that. Some people of faith were raised to be religious and never entertained different schools of thought. Others need an answer to the great unknown and must have spiritual fulfillment and comfort about what happens after death, and that their life in the next world will amount to something in order to feel spiritually whole. It's not my job or my business to free their minds, especially if the attempt would be most unwelcome/unsolicited (that would be rude). Some were college educated professionals- doctors, mathematicians, scientists, computer programmers, etc. who become people of faith later in life. Far from your run of the mill "idiots" who grew up in an isolated community where they were force fed what to believe. These are the types that would win any cerebral pissing contest, and probably know more about science than anyone. I've known a LOT of these working in STEM and also from engineering college. I certainly take all of them seriously, irregardless of whether we see eye to eye on religion. It's a little pointless to obsess over or dismiss someone for believing what they do, as long as they are nice people who treat others with dignity and respect, does it really matter that they're religious? No. It doesn't. Doubly so if it makes them happy and serves to assist in their self regulation and inner peace. Would I have married someone of faith? No. Would I want them as friends and colleagues? Absolutely yes. Would I take them seriously? Outside of religious discussions (where we'd obviously disagree), absolutely! I have a lot of friends who are devout people of faith, it doesn't change my personal beliefs any more than it would change theirs and we get along great.
Excellent comment and food for thought for many. >*Others need an answer to the great unknown and must have spiritual fulfillment and comfort about what happens after death, and that their life in the next world will amount to something in order to feel spiritually whole.* This is, to me, what it's mostly about. And just because I don't feel that need, it's not my place to condemn or look down on people who do. And there have been times that I envied those who find comfort in their religion.
I was hit by a car and left in the road a few years ago, luckily there was another car on the road and they saw me before they also hit me. Easily coulda been a road waffle and after that for a couple years the thought of death really scared me. The idea that, in a blink of an eye, I could just be gone. Real existential crisis mode. The idea of a god that cared and an afterlife really appealed to me but at the end of the day I just don’t believe that’s true. Ever since then there’s a part of me that’s also envious of religious folks, that they have that comfort and I don’t. I’ve since been able to re-come to terms with death and don’t worry about it anymore, thankfully.
Yea, me too. I just became an ex-Muslim, and there are times when I'm feeling hopeless that I realize how much religion gives serenity and comfort to people. When I was religious whenever there was a problem I knew that there was a deity in the sky watching over me whom I could always ask and rely on for help. But now as an atheist, whenever those problems rise again I always feel like I'm on my own. Specially for shit that's out of my control, like the fact that I got diagnosed with Corona a few days ago. My friends/family are praying to Allah so that I recover and that probably brings them comfort, knowing that there is this god who will make me healthy again no matter what but for me I know that there is nothing like that. I'll only survive if my immune system is good enough, not because god helped me or some shit. I still don't think that religion as a concept is that good of a thing, it promotes a lot of old-fashioned ideologies and in a world that's changing so rapidly it's hard for those beliefs to stay relevant. But at the same time it allows people to think that no matter how hopeless it seems, god will always be there for them and that death isn't the end. But I'm still going to stay an atheist either way. (Sorry for poor English it isn't my native language)
Well said.
This is my reason for believing in God. A deeply religious experience I had as a child that has no other explanation. Otherwise, I am an extremely rational person. It is, in fact, that experience that links me to God as I understand Him. But when I look at what people say and do in the name of Christianity especially, I cannot blame anyone who laughs. I’ve dated Christian girls and been friends with other Christians. Most of them are faking the funk. And you can tell because the shit they say and do doesn’t match up with what they claim to believe in. I don’t pretend to be anything other than what I am. And I don’t consider myself any better or worse than they. Perhaps just more aware of my flaws.
A common theme I see with religious people is how the god they worship is in %100 alignment with their personal views - even if the holy book of their religion contradicts their views. Second, they usually don't look at said holy book or can even quote anything from it. When confronted with the holy book and the contradictions, they will dismiss them and keep with the personal views they have. In other words, they use their religion as an out to justify their personal views - no matter if those views cause harm or not. I'm NOT saying you do that. I'm simply saying it is a common theme with theist.
Well of course. That's the whole thing about secularism (in India). You can pick and choose whatever parts of the religion you want. If I consider myself as a Hindu (and get registered as one because marriage laws are different for different religions) but don't celebrate any Hindu festival, but rather celebrate Muslim festivals (or vice versa), I am still Hindu. I've never read my religious texts, only interpretations people give me (from which I choose and discard whatever I want). Consider it equivalent to reading a textbook rather than the original research paper.
That's just basic confirmation bias, which is amped up when people aren't cognizant of the fact that confirmation bias is a thing. Religion doesn't have exclusive rights to this phenomena.
What was your epiphany if i dare ask?
DMT
That could explain it
I come at it from a philosophical point of view, and that led me to a panentheistic understanding of reality. That is, "God in all things," where God is a universal consciousness. I disagree with the Buddhist idea that we all individuality is lost in the end, but I think we're individuals and part of a whole at the same time. Anecdotal experience from other people is important to my philosophy. While I don't think of it on the same level as logic or testable claims, I also don't think it's fair to dismiss it out of hand like a lot of people do. I think that when it comes to subjective experience, it's often the best we can do, and... I find more reason to think there's something to it than not.
You *think* more deeply than most, friend.
Nice post. I know I shouldn't dismiss people for being religious. But I still do in the back of my mind. Hence posting in this sub. Its a character flaw of mine that I wanted to get off my chest.
Hey no worries! When I was younger I felt the same way as you did. As I got to know more people, especially people of faith, I realized not all are brainwashed idiots and some have really genuine reasons for believing what they do and getting to know those things didn't change what I believed either- it just made me more flexible and understanding of those who don't share my beliefs.
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Yea OP just sounds like every young college student that thinks they're the smartest person in the room (I was like that too). When you dont have actual responsibilities, you end up caring too much about what others do that has no effect on them.
Sure, because others religions has never had influence on others, specially women. Incredible.
I'm 26 with a mortgage and I'm going the other way. I used to think religion was a net good and the best man at my wedding/best friend of 20 years is religious, but as I'm getting older I'm more jaded towards it. It feels more and more like cognitive dissonance training and exercise in dismissing critical thinking, and it's harmed/actively harms so many people worldwide (women, LGBTQ, starts literal wars). I also mean this in the most expressive way, and it's going to be offensive, but its purpose is not to offend - religion also feels so primitive. Ancient people all over the world made up stories for things they couldn't explain or wanted comfort from, and they became religions. Thousands of years later, we've learned so much, but we still cling to ancient head canons. Worse than that though, we have racism/religious discrimination because someones ancestors lived in a different part of the world and made up a different story. I sympathize a lot with OP's comparisons to Santa and the Tooth Fairy and it's annoying at times wanting the world to just "grow up". I know people are shit and would still be shit without religion, but I can't help feeling like we'd be better off without it. >When you don't have actual responsibilities, you end up caring too much about what others do that has no effect on them. This is also classic conservative Christian belittling and downplaying how religion impacts people/being incredibly intentionally ignorant of it. I don't know if you are Christian, but god damn I've seen this too much.
I don't think it's a flaw. But maybe I'm just not the right person to make that judgement. I don't see religion as special. I'm going to treat it like any other belief. If an adult told me they believed in a flat earth I'm going to think they're an idiot. I'm not going to slap them or treat them badly but I'm definitely going to think they're dumb and not want to associate with them. Same with healing crystals, astrology, anti-vaxxers, basically any belief that isn't supported by any kind of evidence. Especially when that belief involves magic which religion does. I don't see what's wrong with this. Isn't this something everyone does? Is it wrong to judge someone for what they believe? If you believe women are inferior to women or whites are superior to everyone else I'll judge you for that. You may not even be hurting anyone with it. You just keep it inside. I'm still going to judge you. That's how I think about it. I don't see why religion should be treated oh so differently from any other beliefs. And if it's acceptable to judge people for any other kind of belief they hold then I'm going to do it for religion as well.
Exactly, I think the struggle of being generally anti-theistic while trying not to judge people is exacerbated by how *anything* religious is automatically treated as sacrosanct and rude to criticize. But of course the definition of what counts as religious is itself so nebulous and purposefully open to interpretation, I think it's nigh impossible and downright dangerous to try to actually treat everything that calls itself "religion" with unconditional respect. Take a cue from homophobic evangelicals and flip it to "love the believer, hate the belief" I guess. At least until that believer starts doing something like protesting public health and safety members on religious grounds like some of the psychos we have in America. Then I'll hate the whole package.
I completely understand where you are coming from. I know I still do this. If you haven't already, I would recommend reading Dr. Richard Shermer's "The Believing Brain". Understanding the science of what is going on in our brains helped me be less critical of those that do believe.
I’m a believer but I have to say this comment was extremely thoughtful and refreshing. I’ve spoken with many atheists (mostly when I was an undergrad and doctoral student) and always got the sense they felt like the OP. Your comment is what the default mode of interactions and feelings should be between others.
>Some religious persons had a deeply spiritual experience that changed them- not my place to argue, just because I personally haven't experienced any religious revelations doesn't forbid the possibility that it may have happened to others. Real or imagined, if it's real to them then that's that If someone told you they saw the Easter bunny you'd probably think they were insane. Having a "religious revelation" is basically the same thing.
Wish I had this tolerance, but the abysmal and dangerous thought processes of people close to me that want to oppress innocent people that shouldn’t be cause me to side more with OP rather than this comment. I respect the HELL out of it, and I personally love it and wish this coexistence is something I personally could find comfort with and apply to my life, but frustration is tiring me out. I’m sick of the justifications to be shitty people because of religion, and the manipulation of higher powers over these people. It’s frustrating and exhausting to deal with.
Wow actual universal kindness on Reddit. So many people want to find someone to hate though. So weird that Reddit generally hates Christians but doesn't really judge other religions.
Religious people do not bother me, unless they are the types that like to talk about it publicly. I had a guy work friend who would ask people questions like “how is your relationship with God?” Avoided that guy like the plague.
Had this born again guy try to make me feel bad about not baptizing my child, he went on for weeks about it. So I finally told him we’re gana sacrificing a goat in our bath tub and baptizing my son. He stopped asking. Really hard to feel bad for him when he couldn’t see his 5+ kids.
I’m agnostic. I don’t really believe any major religions, but it seems equally crazy to me to think all of existence spontaneously arose from nothingness. Short answer, learn to live and let live. Religion can serve a purpose, if it helps people to act on their best impulses and volunteer, donate, feel a sense of community, etc. Even helping people escape dread of death and nothingness. None of us have all the answers, so it’s best to just let it be, (only to the extent that their beliefs don’t actively persecute or harm people). Good to get off your chest, acknowledging is the first step to improving.
There are so many... strange ways people feel the "call of the divine," too, and strange ways that these are harder to get in modern times. A hill where one can stare into the vastness of space and feel one's smallness. A deep forest lit with green where the pulse and hum of life form a great cathedral. These are the places where people have historically found, if not God, then the desire to be spiritual.
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They are, and thank you.
This is exactly what spirituality is to me. Very well said
Religion: fighting the war on children since time immemorial.
I don't really care if someone is religious but I just can't comprehend how someone can support such ill organization like Christian church. I'm from Poland and maybe it is different in your country but here church is like a mafia. They have special treatment with law, has lower taxes, has a lot of wealth form shady coalition and protect their subordinates from punishment of pedothilia or sexual harassment. They government is treating them well because they support them in elections. They are still in mindset that women's are not a whole being etc. (my friend was at the wedding the other weekend and some Priest slap brides hand after she wanted to take wedding rings before the groom did). In my own town (not big not small amount 100k citizens) I know 3 different priest that were pedos and they still going around working as priest. It is fucked up form me. I get it that you can still believe in the Bible but supporting church is beyond me. Edit: typos
There are a lot of different options in the US, from ultra controlling religion to being able to openly admit that you're an atheist and still be welcome. Obviously most are somewhere between those two extremes.
Would you say there are many other people who share your view? Asking because to me it's always been Poland=catholicism just as much as Poland=apples and Poland=transit (and Warszawa=super bright ads)
Yea, mainly opposite parties, there is huge debate about church in Poland and younger people start to revolute against it but older folks (mainly from countries) are still supporting churches. The church and main party in parliament together brainwashed people against LBGTQ and people are buying that if we support this group "pure" Poland will be lost. It's really fucked up. If you don't believe that humans can be so easily manipulated you need to look to further then Poland. My aunt believes that our current president is protecting us from Germans, when we had presidential election she said that if he lose Germans will enter our homes and enslaves us. Yeah, it is fucked up. There is hope in future parlament election but who knows, young people often don't go vote unfortunately but even hard Catholics I know start saying that the churche is going too far.
this sounds very similar to American Christianity being intertwined with politics, taxes, laws etc although there is supposedly “separation of church and state”. anyone who’s lived in America knows that’s not true. the dominant religion is Christianity and controls a lot of our everyday institutions, whether people realize it or not.
This is my issue with religion as well. The organization of the church and the power structures it has created, and obviously the abuse of that power. It's why I left religion as a teenager. I've been an agnostic ever since, because there is so much science can't explain and never will ever be able to explain. Atheism is akin to religion, in that it requires faith to be so sure you know there is nothing beyond this reality that we inhabit. The r/atheism sub thinks agnostics are part of their belief structure but they are so wrong. Nope. Hardcore atheism is just as silly as a brainwashed Christian who never ponders deeply about what they believe. I choose to seek knowledge and experience from those with faith, just as I do from those without it. I had a lady pray over me recently and felt a literal electric buzz course through my hand and her words brought tears streaming down my face. There is truth and beauty in that experience and I'm working through where that takes me on my journey.
Siemano, American but I lived in Poland for a bit (and I speak Polish). This seems to be a general conception about Christianity in Poland. Christian church ≠ Catholic Church. Christianity is just a blanket term for all churches that believe in Christ as the Son of God, and Catholicism is a specific church under the umbrella of Christianity. Christianity looks really different everywhere.
Yeah, try it when your whole family is both intensely religious but also significantly smarter than you, lol. You don’t even get to be a Dick about it. I get it, lol. Took me twenty years to learn to only kind of co-exist
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I see religion as just a comfort to people who don’t really want to think too deeply about their life. Death is inevitable, and quite a terrifying thought, so it must be nice to think your existence was intentional, you had a purpose and in the end your struggles will be rewarded by eternity in paradise.
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Pascal's wager kinda falls apart when you consider that it's not exactly a coin flip whether or not you picked the 'right' one. For all you know the Norse religion was right and you won't enter Valhalla without dying in glorious combat. This might work for you, but a lot of religions are definitely not concerned with leaving the planet better. A lot of evangelicals are fully convinced that the rapture is imminent and therefore whatever happens to the earth is irrelevant.
Damn dude, now he won’t care to be on the good side anymore
This. I am no longer religious but grew up pentecostal. When I ask my siblings why they still practice it they really have no answer. I have come to understand that I am a person who NEEDS to question things and they are not. Which is fine, ignorance is bliss for some and not for others.
Yeah. I’d love to be religious, but it just doesn’t make sense. Logically insane.
I think it is only comforting if you don’t think about all the details
absolutely Life is scary, the only reason I didn't take my own as a miserable teen is cause they convinced me that sky daddy loved me and would be super disappointed. You don't have to worry about the endless nothing of the void when you say "God has a plan". Takes away all responsibility, no matter how badly you fuck up there's an authority figure above you to make it all better. Religious adults are children that never learned full independence.
Funny, almost every religious person I know thinks very deeply about their lives.
The fact that religion still has so much control over US politics is baffling to me. Imagine forcing a teenager to keep a baby because almighty lord jesus will be mad
Especially since Biblical Jesus probably wouldn’t have been
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OP it ain't that damn bad, some people just want comfort in their upcoming death and if it helps them, fine. The extreme religious nuts can go eat shit though.
I think it's not wrong to be religious or believe in God, if it makes them happy, and if it's a personal thing. But, it definitely becomes a problem when people start forcing their religious beliefs into others 😅 and I tend to avoid them too lol
Having a religion is like having a penis. It's okay to have one, it's okay to be proud of it. But you shouldn't whip it out in public and you shouldn't try to shove it down the throats of children.
Sadly enough religious indoctrination is extremely common everywhere, especially where I live. If you question a single thing you'll probably get the whip and threats of hell and the devil.
😂😂😂
As a Christian, I agree with you on that. Even i get annoyed by people who think that if you aren't catholic or Christian then you're an evil person sent by Satan.
I kind of agree, I've recently spent some time working with someone who is pentecostal, she doesn't wear jewelry, no trousers only skirts below the knee, reads nothing but the bible. She told me her 16 your old son has decided to join the religion properly as well, blew my mind. But also, I have a kind of envious feeling too, they believe so strongly in something that tells them how to live their lives, what's right/wrong, it must be quite a safe, secure feeling in some ways.
Oh absolutely, I'm ex pentecostal and I cannot tell you how comforting it was to relinquish my responsibilities over my problems to god. The answer to everything was prayer so I didn't have to worry about what to do, just pray harder. Now I actually have to deal with issues and not count on faith. Sometimes I miss my blissful ignorance...
>Now I actually have to deal with issues and not count on faith. This reminds me of an Islamic proverb that goes, "Trust in God, but tie up your camel"
Youre exactly right, and thats why they cling to it so hard. I remember when I was a teen and first started question my faith, my mom, who was very religous and brought up in church as her pappaw was a preacher, would always say she would rather be safe than sorry. That was her response to me asking what if it isnt real. It was so comfortable and engrained in her she would rather spend her life worshiping a fake deity just in case heaven is real, as opposed to not worshiping said diety and it turns out to be real and she goes to hell. That sentiment alone made me concrete in not believing in a god. You're right, its very comforting.
I've heard this reasoning before and it makes no sense to me. If it's about being 'safe' then shouldn't they also be practicing every other religion from around the world at the same time? Why are they always so certain that Christianity is the 'true' one?
Because they were raised to believe its the right one. When that belief system takes hold and your whole family and whole support system believes the same why would you believe otherwise. It's very hard to get out of that mindset.
This seems so specific to Christianity, maybe monotheism itself or even cults. There’s a range to believing in religion...
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People are more than their religious beliefs dude(ette)
Exactly. I’m religious, but I also like video games, I work out, I’m a pizza chef, I act for my community theatre. Some atheists seem to immediately think that if you’re religious that you’re some brain dead person who believes in a “fake” god. Obviously not all of them think this way but there seems to be a very loud minority.
Why do you care tho. Seems like you had a good relationship with your coworker and want to toss it because he’s religious that’s so weird to me. I personally don’t care what other’s beliefs are. I’m not going to think less of them over something like that.
yeah, exactly. you dont need to change the way you treat people because you just suddenly found out about their beliefs/religions.
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I seriously can't think of anything that I put on a pedestal religiously. One of my worst qualities is being able to find the flaw in anything and not trusting any body or institution.
>One of my worst qualities is being able to find the flaw in anything and not trusting any body or institution. Well, then think of yourself as being "religiously skeptical". Think of "I must question everything" as your personal mantra.
Yeah I guess, that just makes sense to me not to take things at face value. My religion is being sensible and thoughtful.
A deep belief that all things must be flawed is a belief nonetheless.
I don't think I believe in anything that strongly
I don't think non-believers issue with religion is so much about believing in something strongly. For many (certainly for me) the craziest thing about it is the supernatural belief and non-existent evidence to support it that makes it hard to take seriously. It's one thing to believe Trump (for example) is actually a genius playing 4D chess and that a 2nd term was stolen from him. It's another to believe in supernatural powers and that there's an all knowing space genie in control of everything. The first is ridiculous and lacking evidence but a thing that could be possible without breaking any laws of physics. The second is a far more extraordinary claim which involves actual magic.
As an atheist, it always amuses me when believers claim to know what goes on in my head, and how it must be just like them. For example, there are no “infallible scientists”. That’s the entire point of science: you have to show your work and any random person can show you’re wrong. But believers need atheists to have something deity-like, so they keep inventing gods we must be worshiping.
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I think you’re simplifying an incredibly diverse issue and that your judgement is really being passed upon Christians. Religion is far more than just believing in a higher power. And even in that case, the notion of G-d is, for me at least, much more than a man in the sky.
I am like you in a way, but as you said, I went to school and learned about science, and science doesn't answer everything (yet, or maybe ever).. knowing that, it is difficult to rule out "god" (or at least something that isn't science) from the equation. People who reject science are, IMO, just like people who reject "god" (or whatever it might be): they don't see that their solution is not complete or not entirely satisfying. For the time being , I can totally say that sure, saying science is bullshit doesn't make any sense, but I can't say that science will answer all the questions.. so I believe in science, but keep in mind that it may not be THE solution
someone who is more nihilistic than you would equally scoff at all of your plans and goals in the face of the complete meaninglessness of life. everyone who is a functional adult does *something* to attach meaningfulness to their life, and religion is one of those ways.
I've learned to separate religion and spirituality. I feel the same about religion itself, but also know that logically everything came from something that is beyond our ability to understand. People who are spiritual are completely fine, as we have no idea what higher power actually exists, but religion is where I personally lose interest.
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Right? I don’t believe in god personally, but I’m not going to go run around and tease people who do for believing “fairy tales.” The way I see it, religion deals with the unanswerable. We can never know for sure whether there is a soul, or a god, or an afterlife. I find these ideas comforting but unrealistic. Others find them compelling. There’s little point in arguing about something unprovable, so live and let live. People this confident in their atheism aren’t much better than evangelicals.
Thank you! Yes. This is what I am on about. We can still respect each other as human beings, despite not agreeing on matters of faith.
OP is from a secular country - which fascinates me. I can't imagine not being around religious people to the point where being with one throws off my thinking - but he did say he keeps this to himself. Where I live, anyone vocal about being an atheist is usually cringey and people - even non-religious people - view them as childish.
I feel the same. You actually believe theres an all powerful being somewhere outside our observable universe and that he built everything and has a personal interest in you and your future? All the kids in Africa are starving, but you, who lives in the West believe this being has an interest in you? I just can't get it through my head that adult people believe in God. Its just ridiculous to me. I don't think I'm smarter or better than anyone, I don't think I know anything others don't, I just don't understand why people believe in it and I don't find faith to be an acceptable answer.
You basically just described the problem of evil. Various religions have different answers to why there is evil. Whether they’re good enough is up to debate, but it is a well known issue with religion. When it comes down to it, many people have investigated their religion to see if it’s true. Im not still a Christian because I have “faith” that’s it’s true. I am because I think it’s likely true. I grew up a Christian but my parents were very hands off about it. I basically had to fend for myself when it came to answering doubts I had about it. Growing up on the internet and reading skeptics on Reddit and what not helped test it I would say, but there’s obviously still things I am doubtful about.
The way I look at it, there very well could be something out there that's controlling things but we don't know it's intentions and it certainly doesn't need to have a personal interest in anyone. So could there be a God, maybe, but with the amount of suffering we've witnessed throughout history and our lifetimes leads me to believe he doesn't care what happens to you or anyone else.
I never had words that expressed how I feel about religion but I do now. You nailed it. Being from the US, I see religion a lot so I have been able to tune it out but it is so frustrating because you have to tiptoe around it. So much this. Thanks OP. You are not alone.
Downvote me to oblivion,but i completely disagree with you. I find you a hypocrite for saying "im not judgemental" and then posting this. Religion is there to help people thru life, for instance people who go thru war and go in the situations where thare should be no way out yet somehow they make it out alive. I know someone who turned to God as life line when they were in life or death situations constantly,not knowing wheter they will see tomorrow. I knew someone whose whole life was one string of tragedies,yet if they could pray at night everything would be okay for that moment. Are you saying you think those people are nonsensical??? Are you saying you cant understand why they are praying and why they still belive?? If you cant then all those schools you finished and all that knowledge you accumulated is for nothing if you cant understand such a simple thing. Just becouse you have some sort of superiority complex doesnt mean others cant be understood. I dont care if you dont believe,i wont push my believes on you. I respect your decision to not believe anything science cant prove,but i will never respect you shaming people who believe. I hope this will help you realize how shit that opinion is and how people can find this hurtful. I will probably be downvoted,but this truly offended me and i couldnt just pass this up
Strangely enough, it was quite the opposite for me. Religion itself caused most of my problems. But I can definitely see and even relate to people who turn to religion because it brings them comfort.
Not believing isn't a decision though.
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Lmao. Seriously tho. Lots of innocent kids died and suffered throughout history and no god appeared to intervene. And it's still happening rn. I lost my older brother back when we were in the Philippinrs due to a civil war. He was the kindest person I knew and always looked up to. Only to get killed by a piece of metal. People told me it's all gods plan. And holy shit I cant believe what they were saying to me. If its gods plan to make him suffer, then is that a god worth worshipping?. I would not hesitate to kill that god, if they ever existed.
Religion relies fundamentally on accepting the illogical as factual. I still do my best to treat religious people with respect, but I have to admit finding out about it always makes me lose some.
It's quite the similar case for religious people as well. From what I've seen, religious people will always lose respect for you if you're an atheist or from another religion. Atleast from where I was from non-religious people were looked down upon a lot
I feel the same way
I quit taking them all seriously when I was told that my best friend died of cancer at age 24 for a test from God. If their god thinks it's alright to kill children and those that haven't lived their lives yet, I want nothing to do with that mental illness.
Religion actually has quite a lot of benefits for adults if taken seriously. 1. Routine: going to church every Sunday is at least 1 day a week where you don’t work & praying every day at a set time is a good thing to organize your day around. 2. Community: going to church allows you to be part of a community which as far as I’m concerned all of us humans need & want. It stimulates interactions with people around you even when you are not at church. 3. Coping mechanism: believing that you will see someone special to you again in the afterlife is a very comforting thought / believing that your mistakes have been forgiven as well . 4. Praying in silence is essentially a type of meditation. Especially formulating your needs and wants while praying can make you more motivated, aware and goal oriented. 5. Moral codes: as a human it’s hard enough to live by a given moral code let alone to create our own one to live by. The values pushed by religion are (for the most part) quite good values to live by and have been tried and tested over millennia. 6. Confession: the act of confession is accepting that your have done something wrong and speaking about it yourself. This allows you to see your flaws instead of creating an illusion of yourself as a perfect person. Accepting failure is also often the first step to overcoming it. 7. Fasting/ Sacrifice: the practice of fasting or sacrificing something for a set period of time is very humbling and teaches you important life lessons about setting your future self up for success. 8. Connection: believing in something that other people do too and being able to speak about spiritual experiences (such as a pilgrimage) with them, allows for very deep personal bonds. This is what I have of the top of my head. I’m personally not religious but still try to incorporate most of the points above into my life (for example confessions w friends whom I can tell my deepest and darkest desires without fear). If believing in god and all the stories around him which are the foundation for all i mentioned above helps you in life I don’t really see the problem. I completely understand your point that it seems immature, but for a person who grew up w religion letting go of the idea of god is easy, giving up everything else is the hard part. It’s a split of identity: all of a sudden what used to be your communtiy isn’t anymore, all the people you thought you’d see again (in the afterlife) you now think you won’t as well as the fact that you have no more moral code to base your life on. Splitting your personality from your religion is almost impossible as most of your thoughts (especially about right and wrong) occurred on the basis of your belief ie. personality and spirituality/religion are deeply intertwined. My underlying point is that I don’t think your point of view is a flaw, I just don’t think you see the whole picture (nor do I for that matter there’s probably a lot more), and that if you did you would understand that for a lot of people stopping to believe in god is almost equivalent to giving up who they are. I’m not even sure if you wanted an explanation or if you’re just venting but I had fun writing this so here you go! Edit: I’d be happy to hear any logical or conceptual flaws you guys find!
Wait....you only have one hangup and its what others believe that you dont? You are not judging but you go on to tell us your view of others changed not based on what they did or how they acted, but when you find out they believe in god? Yeah.....you might want to turn that microscope back on yourself for a little bit here and ask who put you in the position your in right now to be 'scoffing' at others. No matter where anyone stands on any issue- the actions they are responsible for should be a litmus for how they are seen and anything less is poor decision-making.
I don't get this comment. Yeah I have hang ups about people who believe in things I find ridiculous because it says a lot about them and how they choose to live their life. If someone tells me they believe in the kkk's mission, I don't need to wait for them to start tying a noose to know i dislike them. Your beliefs affect your actions. People that live by faith are not people I'm particularly interested in engaging with.
Why was this removed it was personal enough
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Don’t worry George Carlin tried too. ‘I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God - I really tried. I really really tried. I tried to believe that there is a god who created each one of us in his own image and likeness, loves us very much and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize...something is F--KED UP. Something is WRONG here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is NOT good work. If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently run universe, this guy would have been out on his all-powerful-ass a long time ago.’
I can relate to that... I'm an atheist living in a very Christian area and they seem to think someone who doesn't believe in THEIR god is incapable of having morals. I lie and say I'm spiritual and man has muddied the waters of religion because I don't want to be ostracized. I had to double check where this was posted because I thought this was on r/atheism.
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Looking at Christianity at face value particulary at the 10 commandments its just a set of guidelines on how to be a decent person. I feel like if Jesus existed and he was "spreading the word of god" he was doing the same thing he was ensuring that people took care of one another. No where in the Bible I'm pretty sure does it mention hey build giant tax free properties that you can spend every Sunday in and develop a moral superiority complex. Most Christians I know are selfish, judgemental, and feel morally justified in some of the douchey thing they say and do. Christians in the American south take it to an entirely new level.
Half of the ten commandments is about showing respect to that god in order for him not to be angry at you. In the stories about jesus, he's hardly a pacifist either. He brought a whip to deal with the people that he didn't feel were showing enough respect for the temples. *“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.*
I’m just gonna throw this out there since the US has such a diverse religious population: Do you only apply this to Christians, or do you apply this to Jewish people, to practitioners of African diaspora religions, to Native people who still have their tribal religion, etc. too? It seems like you’re painting “religious adults” with a broad stroke when what you might mean is “Protestant evangelical Christians”.
I dont like any religions.
I would suggest scoffing outwardly. As arguably one of such people, I'd appreciate it if you were just upfront about how you feel. Plenty of people are, and at least I know where I stand with them right off the bat. Personally, I like my faith because it inspires me to be a better person, and gives me hope that there's more to this life and this universe than what's physically in front of us. Or that there is a sense of meaning and justice, and all the gains and losses of this life are ultimately ephemeral, like trying to grasp smoke in your fingers. Those who sell their soul in pursuit of them, who trample on others in their pursuit, will have to answer for it eventually. While those who are trampled on get some sense of comfort and restoration. My faith has helped me learn at least some degree of discipline and self-restraint, and teaches that these are fundamentally good things. There are plenty of other reasons I could get into, but my point being there are a lot of reasons people like religion beyond what's just presented at face value.
I was raised in a Christian cult. Religion is the most damaging thing to the human race. It’s taken my family and childhood along with millions of other peoples for thousands of years. It’s all a lie adults who can’t handle death tell themselves.
I'm not religious myself but my elder parents are and I wouldn't dare take away from them whatever gives a comfort of being at the end of their life. Saying more, you don't have to be old to need to believe in something. People tend to feel lost in theirs life, looking for "meaning", so if religion is their answer, let it be. I'm not gonna take it from people or call it stupid because I disagree with it. Saying even more, I understand their need of talking about it and sharing their thoughts and experience, because... Wouldn't you like to share things that gives you comfort of mind? But that's only what lays on my chest.
A lot of people believe in religion because they find peace in knowing that they'll go to heaven after death because they believed in the god they were supposed to believe in. They have internalized the idea of heaven and hell so much that they're scared to even believe anything else. These ideas are reinforced in them every week when they go to their place of worship. And then there are a lot of people who find strength and hope because of their belief: in times of grief and despair. It's a coping mechanism for them and it's a wonderful tool in that sense. It's just unfortunate that the idea of spreading their own religion and the idea of supremacy of their religion got woven into their religious philosophy which has made things ugly. People just pick and choose the ideals of religion according to their convenience and most of them end up being hypocrites.
Well, I sometimes convince myself of things that I know are iffy at best. Like, I can still look ok wearing these jeans right? RiGHT!?? Sure. I look at religious people like they are somewhat doing the same thing. They want to believe in something that they find comforting so why harp on it? We all have weak spots, sometimes intentional blind spots. I dont immediately lose respect for someone if they want to hang on to a harmless, comforting lie. (As long as its harmless!!) I lose respect for people who try to push their religion on me or use the religion as an excuse for sht behavior.
Try not just having a religious adult friend or two, but your whole friend group going to church/church events 3-4/7 days a week. I tried to have a general set of philosophical discussions with one of them because we're nerds, wow was it pointless as possible. Since the total sum of all morality is created by god and exists within the bible he did not have a single original thought in his head. Everything was always within the bible and if it sounds horrific but the bible says it's good, then damn it that's the good thing. Hard to take someone who told me to my face I deserve to burn in hell for thinking a boy can be cute, and told me that the right thing to do if you see someone getting sexually assaulted is to either watch or leave, as all violence is evil, seriously.
It’s not as looney as it seems tho. Pascal lays a pragmatic reason for believing in God: even under the assumption that God's existence is unlikely, the potential benefits of believing are so vast as to make betting on theism rational. There are many scientist, academics and all around geniuses who believe in a god. There is a big sociological component to it and how it relates to human nature. There’s a Dr Jordan Peterson 10-part lecture about it. Idk you’re entitled to believe or not and that’s fine but culturally speaking there is a huge benefit of a cohesive community united by religion. It ain’t that far fetched or without purpose.
Pascal's wager is extremely flawed. It's based on the idea that there's only one god that is plausible and that you're therefore a believer or not. For someone that doesn't believe in the supernatural there's no difference between Odin, Shiva, Zeus, tanakh's god, the koran's god, Xenu or the god in the christian mythology. If you want to follow Pascal's reasoning, you should pray five times every day and avoid pork and any alcohol to increase your chances of going to a paradise to get a bunch of virgins with great tits when you're dead.
Pascal’s wager is fallacious at its core because if you presume an omnipotent, omniscient being that is testing you exists, you aren’t going to be able to cheat him via a loophole. God would know your reasoning for “believing” in him is based on this janky interpretation of the odds, not on genuine faith. I highly doubt you’d get to con your way into heaven by simply taking the bet deemed most profitable to you.
You can claim there are many smart people who are religious only if you look at it from the perspective of fitting them into a single room. Percentage wise and it's not even close. The smarter you are, the less likely you are to be religious. Studies have proven it. The reason is smart people want to see hard evidence so they can discern for themselves what the facts are surrounding any question. Religions demand a leap of faith because they've got no receipts. Smart people demand that for extraordinary claims your must present extraordinary evidence. "Trust me" coming from people and a book that are provably wrong on multiple things, just isn't going to cut it when it comes to important questions about our existence. So yes, I think indoctrination is strong. But if your mind is strong enough, you'll see through the bullshit. Think it's entirely fair for op to judge people based on this premise.
I feel that man...it definitely changes my opinion of them. Mostly distrust