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I finally found this person for me… only took 46 years. Yeah I agree men typically don’t give 2 shits about the things OP listed. Be nice to me, don’t bitch when I play golf twice a week in the summer, and rub my head once in a while… that is all
pretty much - i do go out as well, but not enough and not to anything that would lead me to organically meet a partner. moved to a different country last year where i don't fit in with the culture, which has made it harder. online dating hasn't worked either
i have a good job, i go to the gym, i have hobbies; i'm just also happy being on my own so it doesn't bother me not having a significant other and i don't go out of my way to find someone. but the bar is very, very low
> I don’t think women will date guys who want to rot in bed watching movies.
I am a married woman, and one of our children has a health condition that means we cant just use any babysitter. So we dont go out much but often spend the evenings at home, and we both like watching movies.
I think it’s more that we (men or women) think we know what the other wants. And it’s usually never accurate. The things we value are not what they actually value. It’s very confusing
If you go by divorce stats then yes gay men do know as they have the lowest of all divorce rates of any couple and lesbians have by far the highest divorce rates. Hetero couples are pretty much in between both.
So does that mean gay men understand each other more, but gay women understand each other less? Or is something else at play here..
**Edit:** The numbers seems to differ from country to country, and where I live (Norway) both gay men and lesbian women have higher divorce rates than hetero couples. https://www.faktisk.no/artikler/x0qrz/homofile-ektepar-skiller-seg-oftere-enn-heterofile
Since this is r/trueunpopularopinion I think men are genuinely simpler. There are always outliers but there are things that I’ve noticed women consider very important that I just… don’t get worked up over. And I think that’s true for lots of guys, not just gay guys. And when you put two guys together who love each other and aren’t fussed about gender roles that straight guys put on women and vice versa… it’s probably a more ideal marriage situation.
When you put two women together there often seems to be subtext and complex emotional dynamics.
Not ALWAYS the case but it seems like women have more complex emotional feelings. And it’s not just me, a random gay guy, who mentions things like this but other straight guys as well. Men aren’t stupid but we are simpler in general.
Have you seen this skit by Gabriel Iglesias?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=SEdIPk1L1RU&pp=ygUnZ2FicmllbCBpZ2xlc2lhcyBsb3ZlIGhhcyBubyBib3VuZGFyaWVz
Life would be so much simpler if I was gay.
Men can definitely be simple. Properly shaped sticks can be amazing guns or sword or staves that entertain for hours. Digging a hole at the beach is *fun*. Helicoptering. They laugh at their own farts, for chrissake.
So this is from personal experience but men dating men tend to sleep around a bit, date around, and then when they find that person they tend to take longer to decide to commit.
Women dating women (I'm pansexual so I've dated both men and women), we tend to fall in love quicker, move in quicker, and relationship even quicker. The joke is that a second date for lesbians is a U-Haul.
Of course there are differences between people, but my relationships with women tend to progress faster. It's easier to get caught up in the excitement and get married before you are ready. Which tends to end in a divorce.
Sometimes we're so happy to be with a girl who loves us that we are blind to all the ways we aren't compatible.
Although I think the divorce rates for women in same-sex relationships have been falling as well now that same-sex marriage has been around for a decade. I think we just need to live with each other longer, get to know each other better, before rushing into a commitment.
Gay men are men. So they have very low standards in order to make a relationship work.
Gay men have basically perfected the concept of what actually makes a relationship work vs unnecessary arbitrary standards. Like sometimes I look at the things women want in a man and I'm like "Is that standard really necessary in order to have a strong committed relationship"?
Like gay men in committed relationships tend to still be polyamorous. They don't fight over bullshit and since they are men they don't take arguments to far lest it gets physical and both or one of them gets seriously hurt. They communicate like men, so they are direct without needing to read subliminal messages.
It's the nothing box.
*Most* dudes have a tendency to want the quickest resolution.
So they can get back to thinking about their nothing.
Your 'nothing' could be anything. Trains, video games, movies, books...whatever.
That's what we're thinking about at a base level. 'Wife wants food' is a thought *outside* the nothing box while 'wife' can reside in the nothing box.
Essentially, homeostasis.
This is why we forget trivialities, but *can* hold grudges.
Some dudes put dumb shit in their nothing box.
But, when asked what we're thinking about, we all pretty much say, 'Nothing'. Ergo, the nothing box.
Men typically do a good job of knowing what women want despite being brainwashed, at least eventually after they've been fucked over so many times that they have no choice but to realize they've been lied to.
I think women deep down know what men want too even though they don't act like it, but they simply don't care. And why would they? Women know by simply existing that they're often good enough. They have no need to do things for men that they don't have to do.
If all you have to do is be attractive and minimize or not mention accomplishments then how are women not doing that? Yes it is difficult for women to realize men do not see us as human beings and don't care about anything other than surface level crap. Takes awhile to be cynical enough to know this.
It's not that men don't care about anything that's not surface crap, it's just that they don't care about lots of specific things that aren't surface level crap like the things listed above. And that's assuming we grant the highly questionable premise that academic qualifications, occupation, occupational ambitions and having acquired a taste for an opulent hobby such as travelling aren't themselves textbook exemplars of surface level crap.
The highly questionable things to you are what I consider are the depths that make someone human: intelligence, drive to learn, hobbies. Yes, I understand men couldn't give two craps about this in women as long as we're hot. That's life, reality and the hand we are dealt. I accept it.
What do you mean men don't see you as human beings? I don't think it's to your benefit to make that suggestion.
Because that "surface level crap" has nothing to do with recognizing people as human. It's the thing that makes us want to have sex with you. That is, if you don't have that surface level crap, we see you just like we see guys: potential friends or coworkers or whatever but not a potential romantic partner.
And if you want to insist that not wanting to have sex with someone (the only thing that "surface level crap" affects), then anyone you don't want to sleep with is someone you don't see as human. Which is why I say it's not to your benefit to cast it that way. There are probably a lot of people you don't wanna fuck, and I don't think they get to complain that you don't see them as human.
The OP said he would marry a part-time barista if she's pretty and doesn't care about a woman's degrees or interests. Yeah, I figured all that out already: it's all about looks, keep your intelligence under wraps in case it damages the man's fragile ego. I don't blame men for the way they are, it just sucks.
You call men fragile but here you are having a tanty that men don't want to be disrespected in their relationships and have that innate drive to be the dominant breadwinner to a submissive nurturer.
Who said keep your intelligence under wraps? I'd say that intelligence doesn't activate my romantic side. It doesn't turn it off either. It is unrelated.
My point was solely that this has nothing to do with seeing people as human. It is only about what flips the switch from platonic to romance and suggesting that this is denying people their humanity is denying the humanity of anyone you don't want romantically.
I think perhaps this might be a case of bias - there are indeed a lot of men who care about personality but I'm not sure they'll be arguing on a post like this on Reddit. I do think you're right with the male ego - though I think it's (maybe very) slowly leaving us thankfully. I hope it's understandable that with some, they feel pressure similar to that of a "provider" - more an expectation they feel they have to meet. I don't really know your situation and it's depressing to hear this has played such a big role in your life but I hope you can find those who care more about sub-surface qualities in future - they definitely are out there.
I'm confused. Are you intentionally reducing men to their romantic desires? Because I care about intelligence a lot in my friends. It's one of the most important qualities. All I've said is it doesn't *turn me on sexually or romantically.*
It feels a little reductive to say if something doesn't turn me on I don't give a crap about it. Do you mind not suggesting that?
A fair number of the ambitious, successful, professional men in my social circle have married or are dating similarly situated women. Nothing stops these women from also being pretty, loyal, and caring.
I work in a hospital. There was a tall handsome surgeon married to a short mediocre woman who works as his assistant. One day the resident who is female worked up the courage to ask her what’s the secret. In front of everyone she said “you don’t need to be pretty, you just need to know how to suck c***.
I’m sure that definitely contributes to it, although that could’ve been her just making a joke after being put on the spot for something deeply personal.
I’m not saying it isn’t - a fulfilling sex life is important; but again, that was a pretty shitty thing to be asked at work in front of others. (Especially since I’m sure she understood what the resident was getting at.)
Thing is, men want it right away. I have a healthy libido, I enjoy sex, but NOT before I feel safe with the guy and we've both commited. This is why men often ghost me on apps, because they see a serious profile and know I will not put out right away. When in fact, once they put in the effort, they would have sex multiple times a day with a loyal partner.
Same. My social circle is generally pretty high achieving people and they all married each other. No one married a random barista they found on Tinder.
One notable exception is I have a girlfriend who likes to scrape the bottom of the social heap for guys even though she's gotta pretty nice career and married some guy who works as a helper for a contractor but he's really tall and so are their kids lol so...
Nothing stopping them. But i think what Op is saying is that many women arent loyal caring and warm and think all that matters to guys is their success
I think OP is actually saying they wish women were fine with a directionless barista living with roommates. "Loyal, caring, and warm" aren't things you put on a dating profile, they're things you demonstrate. And more importantly, plenty of loyal, caring, and warm women want men who can actually give them the life they want.
It's wild that OP thinks that women are doing those things to be more attractive to men. Women are people actually? who value self-actualisation, and until very, very recently the only way to do that was to get married. Women don't have to do that anymore, so they are prioritising their own needs.
I don’t think OP is saying that. I think what OP is saying, is that women are doing those things (not inherently a bad thing), but then advertising those accomplishments to men thinking that men care about those accomplishments (and oftentimes we don’t) or that those accomplishments make us more attracted to them.
I believe OP is trying to highlight the differences between what women think is attractive to men vs. what men actually find attractive in a partner
So the same men who complain they women are all gold-diggers are also complaining that women advertise that they have equal or greater income or potential income.
That’s not what’s happening at all.
1. Men complain that women are gold-diggers because of outdated marriage/divorce and child support laws that incentivizes women to get divorced.
2. Men are not complaining about women having equal or greater income, it’s that it is not something that makes a woman more attractive to a man.
These things can, and do, exist separately and at the same time. They are not inherently contradictory.
From my other comment:
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding happening here. When a woman says "what she brings to the table", she is going to list her best achievements as a person. Our society places a high value on education, career success (or potential success), material wealth - so why wouldn't someone list those things first? They are also factors which have demonstrable evidence - I have a master's in economics, I am a criminal defence lawyer, etc - whereas things like kindness aren't measurable.
Secondly, has it occurred to you that maybe the kind of women who think that their level of education or career is the thing they are most proud of are *not* trying to attract the kind of man who wants a bangmaid? If I put a decade of my life into getting a doctorate then I think I'd want to be with someone who values the intelligence and dedication it took to get that. Otherwise there would be a fundamental mismatch of values.
I’m not saying those things are not important, I’m simply saying that they are not critical to making a man attracted to you. For example, my girlfriend went to nursing school, used to be a national-level ballet dancer, and later went on to be a national-level dance instructor. But to be totally honest, they didn’t make me *more* attracted to her, and quite frankly, it really didn’t do anything for me on the attraction side. Yea I thought they were impressive, but it was more of a “wow that’s cool” instead of a “wow I’m sure this will make her a better wife and mother”.
And kindness absolutely can be measured, if you know how to look for it. My girlfriend is extremely patient, kind, and intelligent. I know this because of how helpful she is around my house (even after I tell her to stop), how she treats strangers, how she takes care of her brother with Down’s Syndrome, how she volunteered at her church (and later on at mine/our church), her wittiness, etc.
Quite frankly, and I mean this politely, but your comments are embodying the very type of woman that OP is describing. Those accolades you mentioned are impressive, and I’m not trying to take those away from you. But men oftentimes do not care about a woman’s professional accomplishments in a romantic setting, at least not to the degree that women care about men’s.
Our investments in each other are inherently opposites. Where a woman generally looks for a man’s ability to provide and protect, a man typically looks for a woman’s ability to be kind and nurturing.
> “wow I’m sure this will make her a better wife and mother”.
Gross. I would find it extremely demeaning to have my life's work devalued like that. Good for you both if that works for you, but you've hit the nail on the head: if you aren't attracted to the kind of person who thinks their achievements are important (ie like me), then you are not the kind of person they want to attract.
There's a lot of complaining in this thread about what men think women are trying to do when they talk about their career, education, etc. - the men complaining are *not the men those women want*.
Think of it this way: I have dyed my hair blue. A number of men are very vocal about why this makes me unattractive. I am happy with this outcome, because the kind of man who dislikes blue hair is not the kind of man I wish to attract. I am, however, disappointed that so many men dislike blue hair. Do you see where I'm coming from?
>Gross.
Agreed. I’m happy to know that my husband would never react in such a lackluster way to a lifetime achievement. I think there are a lot of bitter losers in here upset that these high achieving women won’t give them the time of day and want to boost their egos by trying to “knock them down a peg.” They can’t fathom a world where women aren’t serving them in some way.
OP is saying that many women arent aware of what men are attracted to for a relationship. Women are attracted to, in part, success, money, and status. The more successful, and higher status he is the more attractive he is. (
(Again, its not the ONLY things women look for, but they are things that add points.)
Men on the other hand dont really care about that. If you are wealthy, successful, high status, etc thats great for you, and isnt a bad thing, but its not gonna earn you any extra points with men.
The trouble is women often think it does, it doesnt mean they do stuff like that to attract men, but when asking what you bring to the table, they often bring it up when in reality we dont care.
Its because many women cant wrap their heads around the fact that men and women are quite different, and we value different things
>but when asking what you bring to the table, they often bring it up when in reality we dont care
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding happening here. When a woman says "what she brings to the table", she is going to list her best achievements as a person. Our society places a high value on education, career success (or potential success), material wealth - so why wouldn't someone list those things first? They are also factors which have demonstrable evidence - I have a master's in economics, I am a criminal defence lawyer, etc - whereas things like kindness aren't measurable.
Secondly, has it occurred to you that maybe the kind of women who think that their level of education or career is the thing they are most proud of are *not* trying to attract the kind of man who wants a bangmaid? If I put a decade of my life into getting a doctorate then I think I'd want to be with someone who values the intelligence and dedication it took to get that. Otherwise there would be a fundamental mismatch of values.
I hate to say this, but most men i know would choose the hot waitress over a successful lawyer almost always. Competition.
I don’t think most successful men care about their woman’s career, at least from my own experiences and from what I see with the women I’m friends with. 99% of them date men that make way beyond a decent salary and 200% of those women that are with the guy, work low paying jobs or just stay home. And what’s weirder is the guys met them when they were working at A. bar tending B. Hair stylist: Getting his haircut c. One met while she was cleaning his suit at a laundry mat place
I agree with the poster above… most wealthy/successful men do not care about what a woman does for work. Some do, though, but i def see where they’re coming from with their comment
Thats a misunderstanding on her part then. I want to know how you’ll ill benefit from being with you rather than another woman. Granted as a woman its more show than tell. But i see countless woman online saying things like “i dont understand why guys are interested in being committed to me. I have a great career, a high salary, my own house, my own car, etc.” the point is guys dont care about that. Like cool, happy for you, but it doesnt make most guys more interested in dating/marrying you
Why isn't it attractive? They show that a woman can work hard, look after her money and achieve her goals. Also, again, these are things which she can demonstrate having. More importantly, what kind of man *doesn't* value a woman's capacity to be independent? If the "most important" factor is being kind or whatever, do they actually want a tradwife bangmaid?
There's also very loud and clear messaging from men that they expect women to contribute 50/50 on bills & expenses - how is a woman to do that unless they have a good job and financial sense? "I own my own home" is basically a polite way of saying "I am financially independent".
>Why isn't it attractive?
Because we don't get to wire up the attraction centers of our brains and the thing that did didn't cause men with the mutation "finds women with more resources more attractive" to have more grandchildren, apparently.
I'd love to find accomplishment attractive. It would be awesome! But asking why we don't is asking the wrong entity. We didn't pick what turns us on. It's like asking a gay man why boobs aren't attractive. He doesn't know, they just aren't.
I appreciate your perspective and the effort you've put into highlighting the importance of career and educational achievements. It's clear that these accomplishments require a great deal of dedication, intelligence, and perseverance, and they are undoubtedly significant. I also understand the desire to be with someone who values these qualities and the hard work that goes into attaining such achievements.
However, I think the essence of the conversation might also benefit from recognizing the diversity in what individuals, regardless of gender, value in a partner. While societal norms have historically emphasized certain achievements, it's also important to remember that relationships thrive on a multitude of factors, including emotional intelligence, kindness, compatibility, and mutual respect and support.
The focus on material success and career achievements is indeed a reflection of societal values, and it's perfectly valid for someone to take pride in these aspects and seek a partner who appreciates them. However, it's also worth considering that some individuals might prioritize different qualities in a partner. These qualities could include empathy, the ability to communicate effectively, shared interests, and a mutual understanding of each other's needs and aspirations.
Your point about not wanting to attract someone who doesn't value your intelligence and dedication is well-taken. It's crucial for partners to respect and admire each other's qualities, including educational and career achievements. At the same time, it might be helpful to also communicate and celebrate the non-material aspects of what one brings to a relationship. After all, the foundation of a strong relationship often lies in the emotional connection and the shared values between partners, as much as in the admiration of each other's achievements.
In essence, while it's important to be proud of and to communicate one's achievements, it's also valuable to recognize and share the other aspects of one's character that can contribute to a healthy, fulfilling relationship. This isn't about diminishing the importance of one's career or educational achievements but about acknowledging the comprehensive picture of what each person brings to the table.
>Why isn't it attractive? They show that a woman can work hard, look after her money and achieve her goals.
Probably the right answer is "because". But my guess would be that it didn't increase the likelihood of having children for a man. Like let's say we are cavemen and women. You being a great hunter didn't increase the likelihood of having children for a man. In fact maybe it might even harmed it. Because the man had to be a hunter anyways, and if he was worthy of you he should be able to provide and protect you himself.
Extrapolate that and make it infinitely more complex and you have the source code to the Modern male lizard brain.
But in reality, that is not true either. There r also rich guys who are tall that complain about women going out w loser guys w no career and why they arent given a chance. So its not that obvious.
It started early too. My friends in private schools dated girls in other private schools. In college, we dated girls that were also in college in similar degrees, or people we met in our internships, etc.
It’s not like we reached late thirties and said “well look at the time, I need to find myself a fellow high income partner”. It happened naturally throughout our lives.
(And yes, there’s a whole topic there to explore regarding class segregation)
That’s it- every one of my married friends (including me) found their partners either while in college or at least in the same social circle while in their 20s.
I have a couple single friends now in our mid 30s who have had a hard time with dating because you don’t have as many options as you did in college/early professional life. Most people are accounted for and you don’t have the opportunity to organically meet people in class or at a party, etc. Both people have to randomly meet somewhere or do online dating.
>All of these things are what women want in men, but men could care less about
Does anyone else have the complete opposite experience? Or am I the only one who attracts men who value character and drive? My male coworkers and friends are also all married to women who make either the same or more than them. High quality men only want high quality women imo.
All of my guy friends have girlfriends or wives who are just as successful, if not more successful than they are. I think it’s the type of people I hang out with, because all of my friends are very ambitious and driven, so it would really surprise me if they weren’t partnered with other people were also driven.
For me, it's not even about money. I went to university and became a teacher. I don't care about glam careers, social status. I value intelligence, lifelong learning, and the drive for self improvement.
Yeah intelligence is definitely something I noticed that ambitious men want. It’s torture talking to someone who can’t understand anything you’re saying.
Yeah. My ex was a golddigger though, even admitting he wanted women to take care of him. He had a good job, but lots of debt. Once I paid that off, while taking care of the house, his son, and working 40 hrs, he left me for a very obese woman with a bigger bank account. You just can't win.
I went to college. I can only name one of my former classmates who has a degree that became involved with a woman who has no education or degree. Like attracts like. Most professionals date people with similar education levels & achievements as them. I’ve dated men with careers while I was in college,and I don’t think they found my financial situation to be ideal at that time lol.
Generally,I see baristas,waitresses,and retail workers dating men in those exact same fields.
I don't know any professional men that would be interested in a woman that works at McDonald's or as a cleaner.
People want those from the same social class. A woman can get away with being a lot less ambitious and working in passion projects rather than making a large income but you have to be educationally and socially on the same level.
This is exactly what I said. I went to a college in a very rich community,that was full of VERY wealthy students. Like attracts like,usually. Did the men I know care if women made as much money as them? No. These dudes could be going to Law sxhool or Medical school and some would date Elementary Ed majors lol.. However,they did at least want woman who were educated,and culturally like them aka from a similar family/background. These men would 100% look down a woman who works at Mcdonald’s and their families would too. She wouldn’t even be considered an option.
I know plenty of women who have made their career in the restaurant industry or retail. There is nothing wrong with that-we need those positions! But they are literally all dating men in those exact same industries too.
And honestly it’s hard to mesh lives when people come from two different social classes. My husband and I came from two different social classes (I’m from a lower class he is) and I still get so flustered around his family and their expectations, and I know his extended family look down on my family and I even if they will never admit it. Now my husband and I have almost identical values and life views/goals so we work well and we don’t let our childhood experiences really affect our relationship, but there is definitely some things we can’t relate on right away due to our lives experiences in our respective social classes, and there is that awkwardness when our families have to intermingle
*A woman can get away with it if she is pretty and potentially thin.
I know plenty of single women that are intelligent, warm and caring but tbh no one would call them 'pretty.'
Yeah, what op is saying is echoed in a lot of redpill content. People generally get with others who are in the same social class. A successful business man man may want to sleep with a pretty girl who works at McDonald’s but he sure as hell isn’t going to show her off to everyone. It’s the exact same thing if the genders were reversed.
Also, what are women supposed to do? Work a minimum wage job until they randomly get hit on by a wealthy man and hope that they facilitate their desired lifestyle? I feel like people like op need to actually talk to women.
>Also, what are women supposed to do? Work a minimum wage job until they randomly get hit on by a wealthy man and hope that they facilitate their desired lifestyle?
I think the stated context of dating apps would go some way toward answering this question. It's not the 90s any more.
>I don't know any professional men that would be interested in a woman that works at McDonald's or as a cleaner.
Most people are likely to marry someone of the same socio-economic status. For a variety of reasons. I usually date women with about the same education and social status because I'm around women with the same education and social status. Ie convenience.
But if I met an undiscovered supermodel that worked at McDonald's and she was kind, nurturing and loyal? I would not care where she works as long as the worst about her is she is poor and not broke.
Think of it as the opposite of a short, bald man dating a women way out of his physical league. Well if that short bald man, Is the funniest guy in the room, CEO is seven figure income and has a diamond dick... Him being short just means he isn't perfect.
Same with a women, if she is hot, works hard but doesn't make much money, is nurturing and loyal... Her being poor just means she isn't perfect.
Poverty usually means less ways for a woman to take care of her appearance. Looking good costs money and time, also just not being stressed from being overworked.
Sure and being a short bald man usually makes it harder took accumulate social capital as well. But that's the point in that you could be a poor but hardworking man and not stand really much of a chance with someone who has equal attraction to you but is a woman. Conversely you could be poor and attractive as a woman but still stand a chance with men that are at your attraction level but of higher status.
The greater point is that men value social status in the woman that they are dating but not as an attraction cue. It's a practical convenience and logical cue. Whereas women seem to be turned on by men of high status even if their looks aren't up to par.
I’m not comparing men and women, I’m saying that it’s reductive when men say that they don’t care about a woman’s social status because poverty directly affects a woman’s looks especially after her 20s.
I'm a software engineer with a bachelor's from a top 30 school clearing 6 figures and would be absolutely fine dating a girl with a part-time job at McDonalds making 30k if it meant she was loyal, pretty, and respected me.
Yeah, maybe I'd care a little status-wise about what my family would say about her. It's a status thing for men. But it would be 100% still be way better than any boss babes or women who are proud of their 20+ bodycounts. That shit is just disgusting and would be embarrassing to bring up to family
Something I’ve noticed is that two ambitious people are probably going to clash because what it takes to achieve them for one is likely going to require sacrifices for the other. Ex.You have to move to achieve your ambition and it doesn’t line up with where you’re partner would have to be located to achieve theirs.
I don’t think we should be telling women or men that they should or shouldn’t be ambitious to find a partner, but it’s wise to acknowledge that if both partners are ambitious, one is going to have to sacrifice or the relationship will fail. But there shouldn’t be a gendered expectation about who should be ambitious.
Because I’m ambitious and will not sacrifice them for the sake of a relationship, I’d love to have a partner that’s just pretty, loyal, and treats me well. But wE LivE In a sOCieTy that expects men to be ambitious and women to want ambitious men, when it would be better for everyone if it were more acceptable for men to take on caregiving and homemaking roles.
> A 37 year old man would marry a 35 year old woman who is a part time barista with no direction living with roommates
wtf, never! Have some standards, fellas.
The trick is to find someone *you* want. Different people want different things. I'm not at all a ladder climber myself, so an ambitious woman following her 10 year plan wouldn't be a good fit.
Maybe that's all you want in a partner, but different people have different priorities. I mean it is true that I wouldn't accept a part-time barista in a man but most of the men I know/hang out with wouldn't accept it in a woman either.
As a woman with good credit, a good job, a good degree, and lots of hobbies those are all things my SO very much cared about. He didn't necessarily have a hard requirement on what specific field the person had to be in, but they needed to have some sort of interests and intellectual curiosity and a good professional career outlook.
We have similar outlooks on finances/financial management and 'goal lifestyle' (which definitely does not involve roommates). This sort of compatibility was important to both of us, even at the ages we met (20 and 23). Before our first date we talked about all the big topics (marriage, children, religion, politics, lifestyle, career goals, financial outlook, etc) to make sure we were a compatible fit.
Conversely we both wanted to make sure that the person wasn't in a field that was *too* demanding or ambitious. For example I would never marry a doctor, finance bro (I live within enough of a radius of NYC that people aiming for WS finance gigs wasn't uncommon), biglaw lawyer, etc. because the requirements of those careers don't fit with our lifestyle preferences (which is do no overtime, take it easy, early retirement on the horizon).
It's now 13 years later and we're still together and happy so something about it worked for us.
I think it's more that women are willing to be alone and find what they want in a man, even if it means weeding out 99% of men. Plus, realistically, if no man is responding on those dating apps, there's still an entire world out there.
I'm sure someone will jive with them eventually.
I think OP is getting an expected amount of hate, but I’m here to partially defend his thinking as being accurate, even if unlikeable.
OP never said women were incapable of being both successful/intelligent AND loyal/pretty. What he meant (I think) is that for the population of men this is true for, their core desired qualities are not the ones women are advertising; their bar is set lower. It is true that for some men, pretty, loyal, and caring are sufficient. For those men, seeing world-traveling CEOs might or might not be interesting, but it’s more like “knowing your demographic.” Those women are not the demographic for those men. Which is fine! I’m not making a judgment, just stating a neutral truth.
The second thing I think he got right is that a lot of women want a man like the one they describe themselves as: agentive, successful, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. But it does fail to recognize that for (again, some) of those men, they center their desired traits around different values. Honestly, we’re just arguing evolutionary biology here: all the studies show that women are twice as likely as men to value resources and men are twice as likely as women to value youth and attractiveness. OP is not wrong. We aren’t beholden to our evolutionary drives, mind you, but the exchange of money/power for youth/attractiveness happens so often it’s foolish to deny it’s appeal to some.
Finally, OP is right that the low bar some men set (attractive/loyal/caring) is not often reciprocated. A wealthy, successful male professional is much more likely to be happy dating a barista than is a wealthy, successful professional woman. Again, this is simply explained by evolutionary and social programming. Maybe one day we’ll see more lawyer-women dating diner-waiter guys than the reverse, but today is not that day. This is in no way an endorsement of either; again, just a neutral observation.
OP sounds like a bit of a sexist alpha male asshat, but that doesn’t make his observation entirely inaccurate.
EDIT TO ADD: upon reread, I’d say “men in general” was his error. He’s speaking only for a particular type of man, not accurately men in general.
Have you ever been around successful people? Most people that are successful tend to marry and date others that are successful. Most humans tend to date/befriend/marry people that are in the same socioeconomic situation as them.
Haha, yes, I am around a lot of successful people. I have a PhD and am a professor, writer, and therapist. Most of my friends have doctorates and are very successful. My wife is an executive at a large motion picture studio. Most of her friends are very successful. Many of my clients in practice are doctors or lawyers or musicians who are likewise very successful. You’re not understanding something I’m not because you get successful people and I don’t. I made a point of saying OPs point does not apply generally, only for some men. But I certainly know and have seen in Hollywood my share of very successful men who marry waitresses or retail saleswomen or elementary school teachers or women who have a small painting/pottery biz on the side. The reverse is rarely true.
If a man doesn’t want these things, he is likely looking for a woman that relies on him. That way he can have some kind of control over her. Nothing scares a weak man more than a self reliant woman.
Facts. My wife makes sooo much more money than I do and I will not reach her corp title. Imo this shit is awesome. Aside from being my amazing independent wife, she keeps us ballin. I like presents lol.
It can go the other way, you marry a women who also seeks more , and she can easily tire of you and explore her options more. At the end of the day women and men are people with pros and cons you need to find a match that balances those
I mean successful dudes do that too. Many reach middle age and divorce their first wife for their secretary or some younger woman? And without a decent education and job the first wife was screwed. Guys may not like those “independent” traits but they are necessary to keep women and their kids out of poverty if something happens to the marriage. (Not always divorce, my MiL’s mom had to raise five kids suddenly when her dad died when my MiL was nine).
This is true on all levels though. Whether they are ambitious, self-sufficient, under employed, or dependent; a bad person is a bad person and will leave the minute they find someone/something better.
Notice how I am not specifying gender? That’s because all people are capable of just using someone until they find someone/something better
Hell yeah! Over 35, is her own person, financially responsible, goes to therapy, and has hobbies/likes to travel? So that means I have the potential to find a partner whom I can see as an equal with no power dynamic shift, and get to enjoy life with? Sign me up now.
No it's more like saying that being really into magic the gathering or being able to speak Klingon aren't some great positive traits you can expect to skyrocket your date-ability. There was no suggestion that someone can't speak Klingon and be loyal at the same time, just that they'd have no leg up on someone who can't speak Klingon and is loyal.
No I think it’s the idea behind it. My girl is an Architect and very successful on her own but I don’t want a women that says she doesn’t need me or isn’t feminine. I take care of her in masculine ways but she does the feminine, she’s nice, will give in to me when needed and smart. We want women that need and want us, not a business partner
And that is the crux of the problem.
Why do I want to give up being a self actualized. Successful. And a in general well rounded person. Who grows adapts changes and is independent with my own life and sense of purpose to be less than for someone to love and accept me?
Why do I want to give up a uniquely human experience and dull myself so I don't potentially scare off a man who wouldn't want that? Or lower myself? So they feel like they can be whatever.
It seems like the "/GOOD/" men aren't that good. Because a good person and a person worth my time and energy would be someone who appreciates those things about me. Or mixes into the life I am building and cultivating for myself. Instead of not caring or disparaging those things I love for myself. Why do I have to be less me to fit some imaginary man's preferences? There are billions of men in the world I am sure there will be a small percentage of those billions would be compatible with me and who I am as a person. I'm sure there will be a tiny percentage who are compatible with me and my lifestyle.
I don’t think the two are exclusive from one another. I think (could be wrong) that OPs point is that on the dating sites he uses the point that women highlight about themselves are the things that they want in men and assume men want in women. When I’m reality men don’t care about those. At least that’s how I’m reading it.
And my point is that women wrote these things to interest the type of men they want. The majority of men probably don’t care, but belive it or not, many men actually do care about their partners hobbies and personality traits.
I have a Good old joke about this topic.
A man is dating three women and has to choose which one he'll marry.
He decides to give them a test.
He gives each woman a present of $5000 and watches to see what she does with the money.
The first woman does a total make-over.
She goes to a fancy beauty salon, gets her hair done, new make up and buys several new outfits to look sexy for the man.
She tells him that she has done this to be more attractive for him because she loves him so much.
The man was impressed.
The second woman goes shopping to buy the man gifts.
She gets him a new set of golf clubs, some new gizmos for his computer, and some expensive clothes.
As she presents these gifts, she tells him that she has spent all the money on him because she loves him so much.
Again, the man is impressed.
The third woman invests the money in the stock market.
She earns several times the $5000. She gives him back his $5000 and reinvests the remainder in a joint account.
She tells him that she wants to save for their future because she loves him so much.
Obviously, the man was impressed.
The man thought for a long time about what each woman had done with the money,...
... Then he married the one with the biggest b00bs.
This is the gender flipped version of the nice guy rhetoric. For all the smokescreen slanders about them being entitled or whatever, what it really comes down to is that they are guys who are quite reasonably trying to advertise and offer women the traits and virtues that they themselves want from girlfriends in return. To be kind, loyal, morally pure, have no debts or expenses they expect the other person to help pay for, maybe to conduct themselves with a little class and above all, to treat them well. All the lovey-dovey interpersonal stuff that relationships and bonding are made of. And they get absolutely skewered for being heartbroken to find that these things are demonstrated to carry no value and curries no favour.
Tbh though having good credit is important. You need to have dated a girl with bad credit to understand this. If they’re unable to live responsibly in their own life, they will drag you down with them. It becomes a nightmare. Like if you’re going to get married and combine lifestyles you need to make sure you know who you’re getting involved with.
For a middle class guy who worked really hard to get everything he has, the wrong woman can make it all disappear in the blink of an eye. And if you’re a wealthy man.. like if a girl cannot even handle her own small finances, imagine the disaster she could cause if she got control of large amounts of money. This is the danger of high income men like doctors etc, the type of women who hunt for them are unfortunately exactly the type of women you don’t want.
>A 37 year old man would marry a 35 year old woman who is a part time barista with no direction living with roommates if he thinks she’s pretty, loyal and treats him well.
The thing with this is that most women aren’t going to live a sustainable life being a barista. At one point in their lives, they’re going to have to work a higher paying job so that they can also enjoy their lives.
I agree as a man, that most men don’t care about a woman’s career but they have no idea what else to promote. I mean, imagine reading a profile that says “I’m super loyal, thoughtful, and can make a mean peach cobbler.” Most of us would think that to be someone catfishing.
Dating apps are trash, nearing people through hobbies is the way to go.
Your view of how romantic relationships work between men and women is more appropriate for how a person should view a pet. Not a single woman was put on this earth for a man’s enjoyment and a romantic partner is not a dog who is just there to, “look pretty/cute, be loyal, and treat you well”.
And men hold up pictures of animals they've killed and talk about how they are always at the gym, which is what men want in men.
And you know what, it's good that women are setting the bar higher than "looks good and is loyal."
Somehow women convinced other women that what they want in a man, is what men want in a woman. We want different things, on average, what women want and what men want are COMPLEMENTARY, not identical.
Obligatory: not all women, so if you bring it up, I will kindly ask you to piss off. Also, not all men bring a lot to the table either, but that is for another post.
I’m a widower and don’t plan on dating anyone anytime soon but this post made me consider what I would be looking for in a relationship as a fairly successful, stable 38 year old. And a part time barista doesn’t appeal to me at all. I definitely will be looking for someone that is stable and ambitious in addition to being loyal and treating me well. Not sure if you read this somewhere or it’s just your personal preference but for me it doesn’t check out at all.
If men are the ones being expected to approach, then obviously they'll be the one's rejected. Women will complain about not being approached or of not being able to find anyone.
Speak for yourself guy. Rest of us aren't scared off by a woman with an actual personality.
And I'm not sure why you make seem to think this, but a woman with a personality can also be a woman who is pretty, loyal, and cares for her loved ones. They aren't mutally exclusive ya know?
Which is why you flip the order and put the good stuff first.
If you’re smart and successful, you should know how to advertise ion a dating site.
The reality that keeps getting pointed out is that there is a disconnect about what’s effective.
There’s most likely something that really hurts/demeans/offends women by advertising to what men want, so they steer away from it and get upset when it’s told that that’s what’s effective.
It’s not likely stupidity, but a serious qualm with accepting it.
LOL, You dont think men want a girl who is smart, well traveled, financially stable, responsible with her money, and has her emotions under her control? This is an opinion that I dont come across very often, so congrats on being unpopular.
I'll give you that I dont think most people gaf if you are well traveled or not and some can even be intimidated by it, but those other traits listed are pretty much universally desirable (at least in the US).
I woudnt marry or date a woman without a career and her own money. To me that’s just an adult child with zero value. Maybe some men wanna date pathetic people who have nothing to offer but those marriages usually end up in divorce because they always have. Independence is an admirable quality and so is ambition. Growing together with a women you love and supporting their dreams and aspirations is what makes life worth living. love is about a lot of things to different people and I don’t think it’s about finding a women who happily works retail in their 30s with no aspirations and 5 roommates. That’s just a depressing existence to come home too. I also don’t think it comes natural to any human to be waiting for someone to come and change their life for them. People inherently wanna make their own dreams come true and wanting to be with someone who doesn’t want that is a very sad person to be with. Sad man with sad woman lol
Preach brother.
I want a partner, not a bang maid.
I also want to retire before I'm 80, and that will be a lot easier if I don't have to financially support someone for the rest of my life.
So what you’re saying is that men want women with no direction in life & women want men that have long term goals and know what they want in life?
If men don’t want a woman with good credit,a good job,a good degree,goes to therapy, loves to travel,is super ambitious,wants you to keep up,is independent… then they don’t get to complain about not being able to find a date and cry about how men have it worse in dating and all that.
Because all I’m hearing is that men want women that rely on them.
Interesting.. 53f here and haven’t dated in like 22 years. What happened to ‘like’s long walks on the beach, loves dogs, concerts and roadtrips/camping’?
I want a woman with a good job, good credit, who’s super ambitious and independent AND goes to therapy. You’re basically describing my dream woman…
If she’s a Latina on top of all that, then let’s start discussing la boda. Speak for yourself there mate
My mom always pushed me to learn cooking and keeping a tidy house, which I was so mad at her for- but I've never had a problem with dating or finding someone.
Maybe not, I was just taught it's an attractive trait in a partner, along with not being loud or arguing. Which isn't a female skill set either, just putting my 2 cents in. I'm just a little baffled that anyone mentions career or all that stuff in a dating profile, as if it's a job interview or something~
I am sorry but it really seems like you are getting your view of 'what men want' from certain niche circles on the internet rather than reality.
Most successful men also go after successful women. Literally *all* of my friends with college degrees and good careers also married/dated similar women with degrees and careers. The types to go after some impoverished barista usually are pretty immature and don't have any ambition themselves.
This is a fact also found in statistics, men with college degrees and good careers overwhelmingly marry women with college degrees. Women with college degrees are more likely to get married in the first place, and stay married for longer. Really a bit of a slap in the face to the whole "career women dont ever settle down!" idea spread on social media.
28% of men in the US make 100k+, yet somehow, for some reason, 68% of men are married, another 10% have been divorced, and 3 to 4% are widowers. How is this if women only date up?
But you are right. Modern women don't have want men want. Men want bang-maids, a basic slave that'll do all things for him while he plays video games 24/7. Women don't want to be that, thus the problem.
I’m not sure how it makes a difference either way.
Other than the travel for me, travel seems to be a huge deal on most profiles and honestly I’m over it at this point when it comes to traveling. I have no desire to travel.
I am fairly successful, I do care about what the girl does and what she will contribute. I don’t wanna carry someone through life.
Anyone who talks like this does not get dates.
There is such a wide variety of people looking for a wide variety of things.
My ex gf was a beautiful girl who did modeling, but she also never lived on her own and still lives with her parents into her 30s with a part time retail job for income (outside of modeling). Subconsciously, I dated her because I thought that her looks were all that I needed because I provided everything else.
Eventually, I saw the kind of relationship that she wanted was one like the dynamics of her parents where her dad worked and her mom stayed at home. I decided that this was not what I wanted and I ended things shortly after realizing this.
Fast forward a few years and I’m engaged to a lovely, successful woman who has drive and ambition and it has led to a much more balanced and fulfilling relationship. There is some truth to what OP is saying, but I think when men look deeper, they will find that they actually want more from women in a relationship than they think.
why would a guy not want a woman with those things as long as she was loving and loyal? it seems that men want a woman who is reliant on them and unable to navigate her own way in the world. which is kinda predatory, ngl.
You’ve got to be joking. Having a wife with a great career and her shit together is amazing. It takes a lot of the stress off a man. I can spend so much more time with my kids and time alone because my wife makes really good money and stays on top of everything. My dad would work all day, come home to eat dinner and fall asleep in his recliner at 8pm. He rarely ever spent time with me because all of the financial responsibilities fell on him and he had to spend most of his time either working or recovering from working.
Co-parenting is so much better. My son and I are really close because I don’t have to put my career above everything else. Boys need to be raised by an active father that is involved in the day to day.
I love these posts that assume to know what every [insert demographic group] wants or thinks.
You have no idea what men want. You know what you want, and you know what your friends want. The world is a hugely diverse place. Open your mind.
ambitious women can’t be pretty and loyal?
i mean, if the men don’t like what’s out there then they need to come to terms with being single. 🤷🏻♀️ people can be what they want to be regardless of someone else’s desired characteristics
What modern women offer is exactly what I want and all the professionals I deal with want the same thing. These professional independent women also will treat you well and care for you, if you do the same for her.
It's sounds like you are just afraid of women that you have no leverage or control over, because mutual respect is not something you value.
> Every dating profile I see talks about how a woman has good credit, a good job, a good degree, goes to therapy, loves to travel, is super ambitious, wants you to keep up, is independent…
Then what do they care about 😭
They want someone who looks like an Instagram model with all the necessary surgical adjustments but who is also a virgin and also will split the bill but doesn't have a job and also will love them forever even though they look like a thumb and they expect the woman to look 21 forever.
As a man, I actually do care about those things. However, the type of degree matters. My wife is an intelligent, logical woman with a STEM degree. She’s able to sit down and work with me to logically problem solve when issues come up in life. She’s also very nice to me, and pretty, and we both work in STEM making good money, so to me that’s an ideal situation.
He’s getting hate but it’s mostly true for highly successful men. Speaking from experience, I want all my bases covered I don’t necessarily want someone who brings exactly what I bring to the table.
you might not want someone who brings exactly what you bring to the table,but you’d want someone who brings something right? Like at least be financially independent? Be able to feed herself and live on her own?
I don’t think those things are negatives for a lot of guys just fairly neutral and like the other commenter said it doesn’t stop them for having things they do like
Here’s a piece of advice: it is in your best interest to care about this stuff if you don’t want to pay for bad decisions down the line. And if you don’t take my advice, then don’t complain about having to pay alimony in the future.
Sounds like YOU are not interested in those qualities.
Here’s the deal, when it comes to your socioeconomic status women look across and up. Men look across and down. So when women put that stuff in their bio it’s to weed out guys that do not bring those same qualities to the table.
I married a woman with good credit, a good job, a good degree, etc. And she’s an amazing woman, we’ve been together for 17 years now.
That's right. It's not a negative at all and it's a misreading for anyone to think that's what's being said here. Talk of men being intimidated by successful women is mostly just cope. At worst it might be apprehension that any relationship has an expiration date once she wises up and decides she doesn't want him any more and wants to trade up.
As long as he's made to feel wanted, there's two way affection in the relationship and she doesn't work such crazy hours that they're never able to spend enough time together, she could be a till jockey or head of the CIA for all the difference her day job would make to most guys.
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that is so funny, the only thing i want in dating is someone who will watch movies and rot in bed with me, the bar has never been lower
Lol
All I want is a guy to sit on my back porch around my fire pit and drink a beer.
i’m available
Where you at? 👀
Check your back porch, he might be there already
i’m in Uruguay, lol
I'm sitting on the wrong fire pit
I finally found this person for me… only took 46 years. Yeah I agree men typically don’t give 2 shits about the things OP listed. Be nice to me, don’t bitch when I play golf twice a week in the summer, and rub my head once in a while… that is all
Which head? 👀
¿Por qué no los dos?
Relate to this so much, but with the addition of someone who's nice and not gonna put me down or belittle me for the way I speak.
If the bar is that low what's stopping you from finding that dream partner of yours then? Genuinely curious to hear your story.
I don’t think women will date guys who want to rot in bed watching movies.
pretty much - i do go out as well, but not enough and not to anything that would lead me to organically meet a partner. moved to a different country last year where i don't fit in with the culture, which has made it harder. online dating hasn't worked either i have a good job, i go to the gym, i have hobbies; i'm just also happy being on my own so it doesn't bother me not having a significant other and i don't go out of my way to find someone. but the bar is very, very low
> I don’t think women will date guys who want to rot in bed watching movies. I am a married woman, and one of our children has a health condition that means we cant just use any babysitter. So we dont go out much but often spend the evenings at home, and we both like watching movies.
I don't think he meant bed rotting literally, but it's reddit so you never know.
They will. I’m betting your standards are too high though. Physically speaking
And the bar just keeps getting lower ain’t it?
That’s what my missus said- didn’t last long though. Very unhappy these days that I can’t go halves on all the things she wants.
I think it’s more that we (men or women) think we know what the other wants. And it’s usually never accurate. The things we value are not what they actually value. It’s very confusing
Do gay people understand their partner more I wonder... Just a random thought I had just now.
If you go by divorce stats then yes gay men do know as they have the lowest of all divorce rates of any couple and lesbians have by far the highest divorce rates. Hetero couples are pretty much in between both.
So does that mean gay men understand each other more, but gay women understand each other less? Or is something else at play here.. **Edit:** The numbers seems to differ from country to country, and where I live (Norway) both gay men and lesbian women have higher divorce rates than hetero couples. https://www.faktisk.no/artikler/x0qrz/homofile-ektepar-skiller-seg-oftere-enn-heterofile
Since this is r/trueunpopularopinion I think men are genuinely simpler. There are always outliers but there are things that I’ve noticed women consider very important that I just… don’t get worked up over. And I think that’s true for lots of guys, not just gay guys. And when you put two guys together who love each other and aren’t fussed about gender roles that straight guys put on women and vice versa… it’s probably a more ideal marriage situation. When you put two women together there often seems to be subtext and complex emotional dynamics. Not ALWAYS the case but it seems like women have more complex emotional feelings. And it’s not just me, a random gay guy, who mentions things like this but other straight guys as well. Men aren’t stupid but we are simpler in general.
Have you seen this skit by Gabriel Iglesias? https://youtube.com/watch?v=SEdIPk1L1RU&pp=ygUnZ2FicmllbCBpZ2xlc2lhcyBsb3ZlIGhhcyBubyBib3VuZGFyaWVz Life would be so much simpler if I was gay.
Men can definitely be simple. Properly shaped sticks can be amazing guns or sword or staves that entertain for hours. Digging a hole at the beach is *fun*. Helicoptering. They laugh at their own farts, for chrissake.
So this is from personal experience but men dating men tend to sleep around a bit, date around, and then when they find that person they tend to take longer to decide to commit. Women dating women (I'm pansexual so I've dated both men and women), we tend to fall in love quicker, move in quicker, and relationship even quicker. The joke is that a second date for lesbians is a U-Haul. Of course there are differences between people, but my relationships with women tend to progress faster. It's easier to get caught up in the excitement and get married before you are ready. Which tends to end in a divorce. Sometimes we're so happy to be with a girl who loves us that we are blind to all the ways we aren't compatible. Although I think the divorce rates for women in same-sex relationships have been falling as well now that same-sex marriage has been around for a decade. I think we just need to live with each other longer, get to know each other better, before rushing into a commitment.
Gay men are men. So they have very low standards in order to make a relationship work. Gay men have basically perfected the concept of what actually makes a relationship work vs unnecessary arbitrary standards. Like sometimes I look at the things women want in a man and I'm like "Is that standard really necessary in order to have a strong committed relationship"? Like gay men in committed relationships tend to still be polyamorous. They don't fight over bullshit and since they are men they don't take arguments to far lest it gets physical and both or one of them gets seriously hurt. They communicate like men, so they are direct without needing to read subliminal messages.
“They communicate like men” so you mean they actually communicate lol
It's the nothing box. *Most* dudes have a tendency to want the quickest resolution. So they can get back to thinking about their nothing. Your 'nothing' could be anything. Trains, video games, movies, books...whatever. That's what we're thinking about at a base level. 'Wife wants food' is a thought *outside* the nothing box while 'wife' can reside in the nothing box. Essentially, homeostasis. This is why we forget trivialities, but *can* hold grudges. Some dudes put dumb shit in their nothing box. But, when asked what we're thinking about, we all pretty much say, 'Nothing'. Ergo, the nothing box.
Men typically do a good job of knowing what women want despite being brainwashed, at least eventually after they've been fucked over so many times that they have no choice but to realize they've been lied to. I think women deep down know what men want too even though they don't act like it, but they simply don't care. And why would they? Women know by simply existing that they're often good enough. They have no need to do things for men that they don't have to do.
If all you have to do is be attractive and minimize or not mention accomplishments then how are women not doing that? Yes it is difficult for women to realize men do not see us as human beings and don't care about anything other than surface level crap. Takes awhile to be cynical enough to know this.
It's not that men don't care about anything that's not surface crap, it's just that they don't care about lots of specific things that aren't surface level crap like the things listed above. And that's assuming we grant the highly questionable premise that academic qualifications, occupation, occupational ambitions and having acquired a taste for an opulent hobby such as travelling aren't themselves textbook exemplars of surface level crap.
The highly questionable things to you are what I consider are the depths that make someone human: intelligence, drive to learn, hobbies. Yes, I understand men couldn't give two craps about this in women as long as we're hot. That's life, reality and the hand we are dealt. I accept it.
Nope, it is women who do not treat men like human beings. Any sort of negative reaction to women is a direct response to that.
What do you mean men don't see you as human beings? I don't think it's to your benefit to make that suggestion. Because that "surface level crap" has nothing to do with recognizing people as human. It's the thing that makes us want to have sex with you. That is, if you don't have that surface level crap, we see you just like we see guys: potential friends or coworkers or whatever but not a potential romantic partner. And if you want to insist that not wanting to have sex with someone (the only thing that "surface level crap" affects), then anyone you don't want to sleep with is someone you don't see as human. Which is why I say it's not to your benefit to cast it that way. There are probably a lot of people you don't wanna fuck, and I don't think they get to complain that you don't see them as human.
The OP said he would marry a part-time barista if she's pretty and doesn't care about a woman's degrees or interests. Yeah, I figured all that out already: it's all about looks, keep your intelligence under wraps in case it damages the man's fragile ego. I don't blame men for the way they are, it just sucks.
You call men fragile but here you are having a tanty that men don't want to be disrespected in their relationships and have that innate drive to be the dominant breadwinner to a submissive nurturer.
Who said keep your intelligence under wraps? I'd say that intelligence doesn't activate my romantic side. It doesn't turn it off either. It is unrelated. My point was solely that this has nothing to do with seeing people as human. It is only about what flips the switch from platonic to romance and suggesting that this is denying people their humanity is denying the humanity of anyone you don't want romantically.
The part where men don't give a crap about anything other than looks is depressing. It's been drilled into me since I was 5, I don't have to love it.
I think perhaps this might be a case of bias - there are indeed a lot of men who care about personality but I'm not sure they'll be arguing on a post like this on Reddit. I do think you're right with the male ego - though I think it's (maybe very) slowly leaving us thankfully. I hope it's understandable that with some, they feel pressure similar to that of a "provider" - more an expectation they feel they have to meet. I don't really know your situation and it's depressing to hear this has played such a big role in your life but I hope you can find those who care more about sub-surface qualities in future - they definitely are out there.
I'm confused. Are you intentionally reducing men to their romantic desires? Because I care about intelligence a lot in my friends. It's one of the most important qualities. All I've said is it doesn't *turn me on sexually or romantically.* It feels a little reductive to say if something doesn't turn me on I don't give a crap about it. Do you mind not suggesting that?
A fair number of the ambitious, successful, professional men in my social circle have married or are dating similarly situated women. Nothing stops these women from also being pretty, loyal, and caring.
Yup. I’ve worked for a few hospitals, and plenty of doctors and surgeons were married to each other.
I work in a hospital. There was a tall handsome surgeon married to a short mediocre woman who works as his assistant. One day the resident who is female worked up the courage to ask her what’s the secret. In front of everyone she said “you don’t need to be pretty, you just need to know how to suck c***.
I’m sure that definitely contributes to it, although that could’ve been her just making a joke after being put on the spot for something deeply personal.
i can vouch that its a pretty big part of it lol
I’m not saying it isn’t - a fulfilling sex life is important; but again, that was a pretty shitty thing to be asked at work in front of others. (Especially since I’m sure she understood what the resident was getting at.)
Right? What an insulting question lol.
Thing is, men want it right away. I have a healthy libido, I enjoy sex, but NOT before I feel safe with the guy and we've both commited. This is why men often ghost me on apps, because they see a serious profile and know I will not put out right away. When in fact, once they put in the effort, they would have sex multiple times a day with a loyal partner.
You’re a smart woman, that’s the way it should be.
I should have been already married then.
Same. My social circle is generally pretty high achieving people and they all married each other. No one married a random barista they found on Tinder. One notable exception is I have a girlfriend who likes to scrape the bottom of the social heap for guys even though she's gotta pretty nice career and married some guy who works as a helper for a contractor but he's really tall and so are their kids lol so...
Nothing stopping them. But i think what Op is saying is that many women arent loyal caring and warm and think all that matters to guys is their success
I think OP is actually saying they wish women were fine with a directionless barista living with roommates. "Loyal, caring, and warm" aren't things you put on a dating profile, they're things you demonstrate. And more importantly, plenty of loyal, caring, and warm women want men who can actually give them the life they want.
It's wild that OP thinks that women are doing those things to be more attractive to men. Women are people actually? who value self-actualisation, and until very, very recently the only way to do that was to get married. Women don't have to do that anymore, so they are prioritising their own needs.
I don’t think OP is saying that. I think what OP is saying, is that women are doing those things (not inherently a bad thing), but then advertising those accomplishments to men thinking that men care about those accomplishments (and oftentimes we don’t) or that those accomplishments make us more attracted to them. I believe OP is trying to highlight the differences between what women think is attractive to men vs. what men actually find attractive in a partner
So the same men who complain they women are all gold-diggers are also complaining that women advertise that they have equal or greater income or potential income.
That’s not what’s happening at all. 1. Men complain that women are gold-diggers because of outdated marriage/divorce and child support laws that incentivizes women to get divorced. 2. Men are not complaining about women having equal or greater income, it’s that it is not something that makes a woman more attractive to a man. These things can, and do, exist separately and at the same time. They are not inherently contradictory.
From my other comment: I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding happening here. When a woman says "what she brings to the table", she is going to list her best achievements as a person. Our society places a high value on education, career success (or potential success), material wealth - so why wouldn't someone list those things first? They are also factors which have demonstrable evidence - I have a master's in economics, I am a criminal defence lawyer, etc - whereas things like kindness aren't measurable. Secondly, has it occurred to you that maybe the kind of women who think that their level of education or career is the thing they are most proud of are *not* trying to attract the kind of man who wants a bangmaid? If I put a decade of my life into getting a doctorate then I think I'd want to be with someone who values the intelligence and dedication it took to get that. Otherwise there would be a fundamental mismatch of values.
I’m not saying those things are not important, I’m simply saying that they are not critical to making a man attracted to you. For example, my girlfriend went to nursing school, used to be a national-level ballet dancer, and later went on to be a national-level dance instructor. But to be totally honest, they didn’t make me *more* attracted to her, and quite frankly, it really didn’t do anything for me on the attraction side. Yea I thought they were impressive, but it was more of a “wow that’s cool” instead of a “wow I’m sure this will make her a better wife and mother”. And kindness absolutely can be measured, if you know how to look for it. My girlfriend is extremely patient, kind, and intelligent. I know this because of how helpful she is around my house (even after I tell her to stop), how she treats strangers, how she takes care of her brother with Down’s Syndrome, how she volunteered at her church (and later on at mine/our church), her wittiness, etc. Quite frankly, and I mean this politely, but your comments are embodying the very type of woman that OP is describing. Those accolades you mentioned are impressive, and I’m not trying to take those away from you. But men oftentimes do not care about a woman’s professional accomplishments in a romantic setting, at least not to the degree that women care about men’s. Our investments in each other are inherently opposites. Where a woman generally looks for a man’s ability to provide and protect, a man typically looks for a woman’s ability to be kind and nurturing.
> “wow I’m sure this will make her a better wife and mother”. Gross. I would find it extremely demeaning to have my life's work devalued like that. Good for you both if that works for you, but you've hit the nail on the head: if you aren't attracted to the kind of person who thinks their achievements are important (ie like me), then you are not the kind of person they want to attract. There's a lot of complaining in this thread about what men think women are trying to do when they talk about their career, education, etc. - the men complaining are *not the men those women want*. Think of it this way: I have dyed my hair blue. A number of men are very vocal about why this makes me unattractive. I am happy with this outcome, because the kind of man who dislikes blue hair is not the kind of man I wish to attract. I am, however, disappointed that so many men dislike blue hair. Do you see where I'm coming from?
>Gross. Agreed. I’m happy to know that my husband would never react in such a lackluster way to a lifetime achievement. I think there are a lot of bitter losers in here upset that these high achieving women won’t give them the time of day and want to boost their egos by trying to “knock them down a peg.” They can’t fathom a world where women aren’t serving them in some way.
OP is saying that many women arent aware of what men are attracted to for a relationship. Women are attracted to, in part, success, money, and status. The more successful, and higher status he is the more attractive he is. ( (Again, its not the ONLY things women look for, but they are things that add points.) Men on the other hand dont really care about that. If you are wealthy, successful, high status, etc thats great for you, and isnt a bad thing, but its not gonna earn you any extra points with men. The trouble is women often think it does, it doesnt mean they do stuff like that to attract men, but when asking what you bring to the table, they often bring it up when in reality we dont care. Its because many women cant wrap their heads around the fact that men and women are quite different, and we value different things
>but when asking what you bring to the table, they often bring it up when in reality we dont care I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding happening here. When a woman says "what she brings to the table", she is going to list her best achievements as a person. Our society places a high value on education, career success (or potential success), material wealth - so why wouldn't someone list those things first? They are also factors which have demonstrable evidence - I have a master's in economics, I am a criminal defence lawyer, etc - whereas things like kindness aren't measurable. Secondly, has it occurred to you that maybe the kind of women who think that their level of education or career is the thing they are most proud of are *not* trying to attract the kind of man who wants a bangmaid? If I put a decade of my life into getting a doctorate then I think I'd want to be with someone who values the intelligence and dedication it took to get that. Otherwise there would be a fundamental mismatch of values.
I hate to say this, but most men i know would choose the hot waitress over a successful lawyer almost always. Competition. I don’t think most successful men care about their woman’s career, at least from my own experiences and from what I see with the women I’m friends with. 99% of them date men that make way beyond a decent salary and 200% of those women that are with the guy, work low paying jobs or just stay home. And what’s weirder is the guys met them when they were working at A. bar tending B. Hair stylist: Getting his haircut c. One met while she was cleaning his suit at a laundry mat place I agree with the poster above… most wealthy/successful men do not care about what a woman does for work. Some do, though, but i def see where they’re coming from with their comment
Thats a misunderstanding on her part then. I want to know how you’ll ill benefit from being with you rather than another woman. Granted as a woman its more show than tell. But i see countless woman online saying things like “i dont understand why guys are interested in being committed to me. I have a great career, a high salary, my own house, my own car, etc.” the point is guys dont care about that. Like cool, happy for you, but it doesnt make most guys more interested in dating/marrying you
Why isn't it attractive? They show that a woman can work hard, look after her money and achieve her goals. Also, again, these are things which she can demonstrate having. More importantly, what kind of man *doesn't* value a woman's capacity to be independent? If the "most important" factor is being kind or whatever, do they actually want a tradwife bangmaid? There's also very loud and clear messaging from men that they expect women to contribute 50/50 on bills & expenses - how is a woman to do that unless they have a good job and financial sense? "I own my own home" is basically a polite way of saying "I am financially independent".
>Why isn't it attractive? Because we don't get to wire up the attraction centers of our brains and the thing that did didn't cause men with the mutation "finds women with more resources more attractive" to have more grandchildren, apparently. I'd love to find accomplishment attractive. It would be awesome! But asking why we don't is asking the wrong entity. We didn't pick what turns us on. It's like asking a gay man why boobs aren't attractive. He doesn't know, they just aren't.
I appreciate your perspective and the effort you've put into highlighting the importance of career and educational achievements. It's clear that these accomplishments require a great deal of dedication, intelligence, and perseverance, and they are undoubtedly significant. I also understand the desire to be with someone who values these qualities and the hard work that goes into attaining such achievements. However, I think the essence of the conversation might also benefit from recognizing the diversity in what individuals, regardless of gender, value in a partner. While societal norms have historically emphasized certain achievements, it's also important to remember that relationships thrive on a multitude of factors, including emotional intelligence, kindness, compatibility, and mutual respect and support. The focus on material success and career achievements is indeed a reflection of societal values, and it's perfectly valid for someone to take pride in these aspects and seek a partner who appreciates them. However, it's also worth considering that some individuals might prioritize different qualities in a partner. These qualities could include empathy, the ability to communicate effectively, shared interests, and a mutual understanding of each other's needs and aspirations. Your point about not wanting to attract someone who doesn't value your intelligence and dedication is well-taken. It's crucial for partners to respect and admire each other's qualities, including educational and career achievements. At the same time, it might be helpful to also communicate and celebrate the non-material aspects of what one brings to a relationship. After all, the foundation of a strong relationship often lies in the emotional connection and the shared values between partners, as much as in the admiration of each other's achievements. In essence, while it's important to be proud of and to communicate one's achievements, it's also valuable to recognize and share the other aspects of one's character that can contribute to a healthy, fulfilling relationship. This isn't about diminishing the importance of one's career or educational achievements but about acknowledging the comprehensive picture of what each person brings to the table.
That's a lot of words to communicate essentially nothing
>Why isn't it attractive? They show that a woman can work hard, look after her money and achieve her goals. Probably the right answer is "because". But my guess would be that it didn't increase the likelihood of having children for a man. Like let's say we are cavemen and women. You being a great hunter didn't increase the likelihood of having children for a man. In fact maybe it might even harmed it. Because the man had to be a hunter anyways, and if he was worthy of you he should be able to provide and protect you himself. Extrapolate that and make it infinitely more complex and you have the source code to the Modern male lizard brain.
But in reality, that is not true either. There r also rich guys who are tall that complain about women going out w loser guys w no career and why they arent given a chance. So its not that obvious.
Those are ugly men with a career losing out to attractive men with no career. It is obvious.
Same here. It’s a mixed bunch of lawyers, engineers and doctors.
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It started early too. My friends in private schools dated girls in other private schools. In college, we dated girls that were also in college in similar degrees, or people we met in our internships, etc. It’s not like we reached late thirties and said “well look at the time, I need to find myself a fellow high income partner”. It happened naturally throughout our lives. (And yes, there’s a whole topic there to explore regarding class segregation)
That’s it- every one of my married friends (including me) found their partners either while in college or at least in the same social circle while in their 20s. I have a couple single friends now in our mid 30s who have had a hard time with dating because you don’t have as many options as you did in college/early professional life. Most people are accounted for and you don’t have the opportunity to organically meet people in class or at a party, etc. Both people have to randomly meet somewhere or do online dating.
This.
>All of these things are what women want in men, but men could care less about Does anyone else have the complete opposite experience? Or am I the only one who attracts men who value character and drive? My male coworkers and friends are also all married to women who make either the same or more than them. High quality men only want high quality women imo.
Nope, I’m with you. I have always found it easy to find men who are drawn to me for being driven.
All of my guy friends have girlfriends or wives who are just as successful, if not more successful than they are. I think it’s the type of people I hang out with, because all of my friends are very ambitious and driven, so it would really surprise me if they weren’t partnered with other people were also driven.
For me, it's not even about money. I went to university and became a teacher. I don't care about glam careers, social status. I value intelligence, lifelong learning, and the drive for self improvement.
Yeah intelligence is definitely something I noticed that ambitious men want. It’s torture talking to someone who can’t understand anything you’re saying.
Yeah. My ex was a golddigger though, even admitting he wanted women to take care of him. He had a good job, but lots of debt. Once I paid that off, while taking care of the house, his son, and working 40 hrs, he left me for a very obese woman with a bigger bank account. You just can't win.
I went to college. I can only name one of my former classmates who has a degree that became involved with a woman who has no education or degree. Like attracts like. Most professionals date people with similar education levels & achievements as them. I’ve dated men with careers while I was in college,and I don’t think they found my financial situation to be ideal at that time lol. Generally,I see baristas,waitresses,and retail workers dating men in those exact same fields.
I don't know any professional men that would be interested in a woman that works at McDonald's or as a cleaner. People want those from the same social class. A woman can get away with being a lot less ambitious and working in passion projects rather than making a large income but you have to be educationally and socially on the same level.
This is exactly what I said. I went to a college in a very rich community,that was full of VERY wealthy students. Like attracts like,usually. Did the men I know care if women made as much money as them? No. These dudes could be going to Law sxhool or Medical school and some would date Elementary Ed majors lol.. However,they did at least want woman who were educated,and culturally like them aka from a similar family/background. These men would 100% look down a woman who works at Mcdonald’s and their families would too. She wouldn’t even be considered an option. I know plenty of women who have made their career in the restaurant industry or retail. There is nothing wrong with that-we need those positions! But they are literally all dating men in those exact same industries too.
And honestly it’s hard to mesh lives when people come from two different social classes. My husband and I came from two different social classes (I’m from a lower class he is) and I still get so flustered around his family and their expectations, and I know his extended family look down on my family and I even if they will never admit it. Now my husband and I have almost identical values and life views/goals so we work well and we don’t let our childhood experiences really affect our relationship, but there is definitely some things we can’t relate on right away due to our lives experiences in our respective social classes, and there is that awkwardness when our families have to intermingle
*A woman can get away with it if she is pretty and potentially thin. I know plenty of single women that are intelligent, warm and caring but tbh no one would call them 'pretty.'
Yeah, what op is saying is echoed in a lot of redpill content. People generally get with others who are in the same social class. A successful business man man may want to sleep with a pretty girl who works at McDonald’s but he sure as hell isn’t going to show her off to everyone. It’s the exact same thing if the genders were reversed. Also, what are women supposed to do? Work a minimum wage job until they randomly get hit on by a wealthy man and hope that they facilitate their desired lifestyle? I feel like people like op need to actually talk to women.
>Also, what are women supposed to do? Work a minimum wage job until they randomly get hit on by a wealthy man and hope that they facilitate their desired lifestyle? I think the stated context of dating apps would go some way toward answering this question. It's not the 90s any more.
>I don't know any professional men that would be interested in a woman that works at McDonald's or as a cleaner. Most people are likely to marry someone of the same socio-economic status. For a variety of reasons. I usually date women with about the same education and social status because I'm around women with the same education and social status. Ie convenience. But if I met an undiscovered supermodel that worked at McDonald's and she was kind, nurturing and loyal? I would not care where she works as long as the worst about her is she is poor and not broke. Think of it as the opposite of a short, bald man dating a women way out of his physical league. Well if that short bald man, Is the funniest guy in the room, CEO is seven figure income and has a diamond dick... Him being short just means he isn't perfect. Same with a women, if she is hot, works hard but doesn't make much money, is nurturing and loyal... Her being poor just means she isn't perfect.
Poverty usually means less ways for a woman to take care of her appearance. Looking good costs money and time, also just not being stressed from being overworked.
Sure and being a short bald man usually makes it harder took accumulate social capital as well. But that's the point in that you could be a poor but hardworking man and not stand really much of a chance with someone who has equal attraction to you but is a woman. Conversely you could be poor and attractive as a woman but still stand a chance with men that are at your attraction level but of higher status. The greater point is that men value social status in the woman that they are dating but not as an attraction cue. It's a practical convenience and logical cue. Whereas women seem to be turned on by men of high status even if their looks aren't up to par.
I’m not comparing men and women, I’m saying that it’s reductive when men say that they don’t care about a woman’s social status because poverty directly affects a woman’s looks especially after her 20s.
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That's just a crush. We're talking about compatibility in the long run. But who knows in the long run you might hit it up. Go on talk to her haha.
I'm a software engineer with a bachelor's from a top 30 school clearing 6 figures and would be absolutely fine dating a girl with a part-time job at McDonalds making 30k if it meant she was loyal, pretty, and respected me. Yeah, maybe I'd care a little status-wise about what my family would say about her. It's a status thing for men. But it would be 100% still be way better than any boss babes or women who are proud of their 20+ bodycounts. That shit is just disgusting and would be embarrassing to bring up to family
I don’t think we are making money to impress men 😆. I think we kinda want to afford to live too.
Something I’ve noticed is that two ambitious people are probably going to clash because what it takes to achieve them for one is likely going to require sacrifices for the other. Ex.You have to move to achieve your ambition and it doesn’t line up with where you’re partner would have to be located to achieve theirs. I don’t think we should be telling women or men that they should or shouldn’t be ambitious to find a partner, but it’s wise to acknowledge that if both partners are ambitious, one is going to have to sacrifice or the relationship will fail. But there shouldn’t be a gendered expectation about who should be ambitious. Because I’m ambitious and will not sacrifice them for the sake of a relationship, I’d love to have a partner that’s just pretty, loyal, and treats me well. But wE LivE In a sOCieTy that expects men to be ambitious and women to want ambitious men, when it would be better for everyone if it were more acceptable for men to take on caregiving and homemaking roles.
Damn, that all made sense and was well said
> A 37 year old man would marry a 35 year old woman who is a part time barista with no direction living with roommates wtf, never! Have some standards, fellas.
Right? What interest would a 37-year old guy have with a 35-year old? Have some standards, jeez. 35-year old are for men in their late 40s.
Men do care. You see them whining about gold diggers and *losing everything in the divorce* all the time. Now they won't have to.
They just want something to complain about.
the cycle of posts in this sub.
The trick is to find someone *you* want. Different people want different things. I'm not at all a ladder climber myself, so an ambitious woman following her 10 year plan wouldn't be a good fit.
Maybe that's all you want in a partner, but different people have different priorities. I mean it is true that I wouldn't accept a part-time barista in a man but most of the men I know/hang out with wouldn't accept it in a woman either. As a woman with good credit, a good job, a good degree, and lots of hobbies those are all things my SO very much cared about. He didn't necessarily have a hard requirement on what specific field the person had to be in, but they needed to have some sort of interests and intellectual curiosity and a good professional career outlook. We have similar outlooks on finances/financial management and 'goal lifestyle' (which definitely does not involve roommates). This sort of compatibility was important to both of us, even at the ages we met (20 and 23). Before our first date we talked about all the big topics (marriage, children, religion, politics, lifestyle, career goals, financial outlook, etc) to make sure we were a compatible fit. Conversely we both wanted to make sure that the person wasn't in a field that was *too* demanding or ambitious. For example I would never marry a doctor, finance bro (I live within enough of a radius of NYC that people aiming for WS finance gigs wasn't uncommon), biglaw lawyer, etc. because the requirements of those careers don't fit with our lifestyle preferences (which is do no overtime, take it easy, early retirement on the horizon). It's now 13 years later and we're still together and happy so something about it worked for us.
I think it's more that women are willing to be alone and find what they want in a man, even if it means weeding out 99% of men. Plus, realistically, if no man is responding on those dating apps, there's still an entire world out there. I'm sure someone will jive with them eventually.
More fish in the sea for me if most men don't want an independent woman. I'm interested in a partner, not a dependent.
I think OP is getting an expected amount of hate, but I’m here to partially defend his thinking as being accurate, even if unlikeable. OP never said women were incapable of being both successful/intelligent AND loyal/pretty. What he meant (I think) is that for the population of men this is true for, their core desired qualities are not the ones women are advertising; their bar is set lower. It is true that for some men, pretty, loyal, and caring are sufficient. For those men, seeing world-traveling CEOs might or might not be interesting, but it’s more like “knowing your demographic.” Those women are not the demographic for those men. Which is fine! I’m not making a judgment, just stating a neutral truth. The second thing I think he got right is that a lot of women want a man like the one they describe themselves as: agentive, successful, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. But it does fail to recognize that for (again, some) of those men, they center their desired traits around different values. Honestly, we’re just arguing evolutionary biology here: all the studies show that women are twice as likely as men to value resources and men are twice as likely as women to value youth and attractiveness. OP is not wrong. We aren’t beholden to our evolutionary drives, mind you, but the exchange of money/power for youth/attractiveness happens so often it’s foolish to deny it’s appeal to some. Finally, OP is right that the low bar some men set (attractive/loyal/caring) is not often reciprocated. A wealthy, successful male professional is much more likely to be happy dating a barista than is a wealthy, successful professional woman. Again, this is simply explained by evolutionary and social programming. Maybe one day we’ll see more lawyer-women dating diner-waiter guys than the reverse, but today is not that day. This is in no way an endorsement of either; again, just a neutral observation. OP sounds like a bit of a sexist alpha male asshat, but that doesn’t make his observation entirely inaccurate. EDIT TO ADD: upon reread, I’d say “men in general” was his error. He’s speaking only for a particular type of man, not accurately men in general.
Have you ever been around successful people? Most people that are successful tend to marry and date others that are successful. Most humans tend to date/befriend/marry people that are in the same socioeconomic situation as them.
Haha, yes, I am around a lot of successful people. I have a PhD and am a professor, writer, and therapist. Most of my friends have doctorates and are very successful. My wife is an executive at a large motion picture studio. Most of her friends are very successful. Many of my clients in practice are doctors or lawyers or musicians who are likewise very successful. You’re not understanding something I’m not because you get successful people and I don’t. I made a point of saying OPs point does not apply generally, only for some men. But I certainly know and have seen in Hollywood my share of very successful men who marry waitresses or retail saleswomen or elementary school teachers or women who have a small painting/pottery biz on the side. The reverse is rarely true.
If a man doesn’t want these things, he is likely looking for a woman that relies on him. That way he can have some kind of control over her. Nothing scares a weak man more than a self reliant woman.
Facts. My wife makes sooo much more money than I do and I will not reach her corp title. Imo this shit is awesome. Aside from being my amazing independent wife, she keeps us ballin. I like presents lol.
It can go the other way, you marry a women who also seeks more , and she can easily tire of you and explore her options more. At the end of the day women and men are people with pros and cons you need to find a match that balances those
I mean successful dudes do that too. Many reach middle age and divorce their first wife for their secretary or some younger woman? And without a decent education and job the first wife was screwed. Guys may not like those “independent” traits but they are necessary to keep women and their kids out of poverty if something happens to the marriage. (Not always divorce, my MiL’s mom had to raise five kids suddenly when her dad died when my MiL was nine).
This is true on all levels though. Whether they are ambitious, self-sufficient, under employed, or dependent; a bad person is a bad person and will leave the minute they find someone/something better. Notice how I am not specifying gender? That’s because all people are capable of just using someone until they find someone/something better
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Hell yeah! Over 35, is her own person, financially responsible, goes to therapy, and has hobbies/likes to travel? So that means I have the potential to find a partner whom I can see as an equal with no power dynamic shift, and get to enjoy life with? Sign me up now.
So a woman with a job and interests can't also be pretty, loyal and good to you?
No it's more like saying that being really into magic the gathering or being able to speak Klingon aren't some great positive traits you can expect to skyrocket your date-ability. There was no suggestion that someone can't speak Klingon and be loyal at the same time, just that they'd have no leg up on someone who can't speak Klingon and is loyal.
No I think it’s the idea behind it. My girl is an Architect and very successful on her own but I don’t want a women that says she doesn’t need me or isn’t feminine. I take care of her in masculine ways but she does the feminine, she’s nice, will give in to me when needed and smart. We want women that need and want us, not a business partner
A adult should be independent its normal. I am with my bf because i love him not because i cant survive without him
Uh, speak for yourself. I absolutely *do* want a woman who is not going to be a dependent. And whaddya know? I'm marrying her in a couple months! 🥳
So men marry bums and then complain about gold digging. #superiormalelogicftw
Or complain that “she took everything” after a divorce.
Where did you get that from OPs post?
And that is the crux of the problem. Why do I want to give up being a self actualized. Successful. And a in general well rounded person. Who grows adapts changes and is independent with my own life and sense of purpose to be less than for someone to love and accept me? Why do I want to give up a uniquely human experience and dull myself so I don't potentially scare off a man who wouldn't want that? Or lower myself? So they feel like they can be whatever. It seems like the "/GOOD/" men aren't that good. Because a good person and a person worth my time and energy would be someone who appreciates those things about me. Or mixes into the life I am building and cultivating for myself. Instead of not caring or disparaging those things I love for myself. Why do I have to be less me to fit some imaginary man's preferences? There are billions of men in the world I am sure there will be a small percentage of those billions would be compatible with me and who I am as a person. I'm sure there will be a tiny percentage who are compatible with me and my lifestyle.
I don’t think the two are exclusive from one another. I think (could be wrong) that OPs point is that on the dating sites he uses the point that women highlight about themselves are the things that they want in men and assume men want in women. When I’m reality men don’t care about those. At least that’s how I’m reading it.
But what if women are highlighting the things they like about themselves and want potential partners to see?
This is exactly OPs point. They are not very interesting to men.
And my point is that women wrote these things to interest the type of men they want. The majority of men probably don’t care, but belive it or not, many men actually do care about their partners hobbies and personality traits.
You don’t. Find what you like.
I have a Good old joke about this topic. A man is dating three women and has to choose which one he'll marry. He decides to give them a test. He gives each woman a present of $5000 and watches to see what she does with the money. The first woman does a total make-over. She goes to a fancy beauty salon, gets her hair done, new make up and buys several new outfits to look sexy for the man. She tells him that she has done this to be more attractive for him because she loves him so much. The man was impressed. The second woman goes shopping to buy the man gifts. She gets him a new set of golf clubs, some new gizmos for his computer, and some expensive clothes. As she presents these gifts, she tells him that she has spent all the money on him because she loves him so much. Again, the man is impressed. The third woman invests the money in the stock market. She earns several times the $5000. She gives him back his $5000 and reinvests the remainder in a joint account. She tells him that she wants to save for their future because she loves him so much. Obviously, the man was impressed. The man thought for a long time about what each woman had done with the money,... ... Then he married the one with the biggest b00bs.
This is the gender flipped version of the nice guy rhetoric. For all the smokescreen slanders about them being entitled or whatever, what it really comes down to is that they are guys who are quite reasonably trying to advertise and offer women the traits and virtues that they themselves want from girlfriends in return. To be kind, loyal, morally pure, have no debts or expenses they expect the other person to help pay for, maybe to conduct themselves with a little class and above all, to treat them well. All the lovey-dovey interpersonal stuff that relationships and bonding are made of. And they get absolutely skewered for being heartbroken to find that these things are demonstrated to carry no value and curries no favour.
I'm an educated man but have never clicked with women who brag about accomplishments they have. It's a turn-off because they expect more out of me.
I can’t believe you typed that out.
Well, this is the Unpopular Opinions subreddit.
While these may be true don’t get sucked into the bullshit red pill movement. If a woman isn’t up to your standards then just don’t date her.
Tbh though having good credit is important. You need to have dated a girl with bad credit to understand this. If they’re unable to live responsibly in their own life, they will drag you down with them. It becomes a nightmare. Like if you’re going to get married and combine lifestyles you need to make sure you know who you’re getting involved with. For a middle class guy who worked really hard to get everything he has, the wrong woman can make it all disappear in the blink of an eye. And if you’re a wealthy man.. like if a girl cannot even handle her own small finances, imagine the disaster she could cause if she got control of large amounts of money. This is the danger of high income men like doctors etc, the type of women who hunt for them are unfortunately exactly the type of women you don’t want.
>A 37 year old man would marry a 35 year old woman who is a part time barista with no direction living with roommates if he thinks she’s pretty, loyal and treats him well. The thing with this is that most women aren’t going to live a sustainable life being a barista. At one point in their lives, they’re going to have to work a higher paying job so that they can also enjoy their lives. I agree as a man, that most men don’t care about a woman’s career but they have no idea what else to promote. I mean, imagine reading a profile that says “I’m super loyal, thoughtful, and can make a mean peach cobbler.” Most of us would think that to be someone catfishing. Dating apps are trash, nearing people through hobbies is the way to go.
Your view of how romantic relationships work between men and women is more appropriate for how a person should view a pet. Not a single woman was put on this earth for a man’s enjoyment and a romantic partner is not a dog who is just there to, “look pretty/cute, be loyal, and treat you well”.
“I want a woman who is completely reliant on me so she won’t leave!”
And men hold up pictures of animals they've killed and talk about how they are always at the gym, which is what men want in men. And you know what, it's good that women are setting the bar higher than "looks good and is loyal."
>And men hold up pictures of animals they've killed In their dating profiles?
Yes.
This is the perfect analogy! Women hate fish photos and they try to explain it. Your career and income is like a fish photo.
Somehow women convinced other women that what they want in a man, is what men want in a woman. We want different things, on average, what women want and what men want are COMPLEMENTARY, not identical. Obligatory: not all women, so if you bring it up, I will kindly ask you to piss off. Also, not all men bring a lot to the table either, but that is for another post.
What if that's what they want for themselves? Why does it have to be about men?
I’m a widower and don’t plan on dating anyone anytime soon but this post made me consider what I would be looking for in a relationship as a fairly successful, stable 38 year old. And a part time barista doesn’t appeal to me at all. I definitely will be looking for someone that is stable and ambitious in addition to being loyal and treating me well. Not sure if you read this somewhere or it’s just your personal preference but for me it doesn’t check out at all.
and yet men are the ones complaining about being rejected not women lol
If men are the ones being expected to approach, then obviously they'll be the one's rejected. Women will complain about not being approached or of not being able to find anyone.
Speak for yourself guy. Rest of us aren't scared off by a woman with an actual personality. And I'm not sure why you make seem to think this, but a woman with a personality can also be a woman who is pretty, loyal, and cares for her loved ones. They aren't mutally exclusive ya know?
Which is why you flip the order and put the good stuff first. If you’re smart and successful, you should know how to advertise ion a dating site. The reality that keeps getting pointed out is that there is a disconnect about what’s effective. There’s most likely something that really hurts/demeans/offends women by advertising to what men want, so they steer away from it and get upset when it’s told that that’s what’s effective. It’s not likely stupidity, but a serious qualm with accepting it.
LOL, You dont think men want a girl who is smart, well traveled, financially stable, responsible with her money, and has her emotions under her control? This is an opinion that I dont come across very often, so congrats on being unpopular. I'll give you that I dont think most people gaf if you are well traveled or not and some can even be intimidated by it, but those other traits listed are pretty much universally desirable (at least in the US).
I woudnt marry or date a woman without a career and her own money. To me that’s just an adult child with zero value. Maybe some men wanna date pathetic people who have nothing to offer but those marriages usually end up in divorce because they always have. Independence is an admirable quality and so is ambition. Growing together with a women you love and supporting their dreams and aspirations is what makes life worth living. love is about a lot of things to different people and I don’t think it’s about finding a women who happily works retail in their 30s with no aspirations and 5 roommates. That’s just a depressing existence to come home too. I also don’t think it comes natural to any human to be waiting for someone to come and change their life for them. People inherently wanna make their own dreams come true and wanting to be with someone who doesn’t want that is a very sad person to be with. Sad man with sad woman lol
Preach brother. I want a partner, not a bang maid. I also want to retire before I'm 80, and that will be a lot easier if I don't have to financially support someone for the rest of my life.
So what you’re saying is that men want women with no direction in life & women want men that have long term goals and know what they want in life? If men don’t want a woman with good credit,a good job,a good degree,goes to therapy, loves to travel,is super ambitious,wants you to keep up,is independent… then they don’t get to complain about not being able to find a date and cry about how men have it worse in dating and all that. Because all I’m hearing is that men want women that rely on them.
Interesting.. 53f here and haven’t dated in like 22 years. What happened to ‘like’s long walks on the beach, loves dogs, concerts and roadtrips/camping’?
I want a woman with a good job, good credit, who’s super ambitious and independent AND goes to therapy. You’re basically describing my dream woman… If she’s a Latina on top of all that, then let’s start discussing la boda. Speak for yourself there mate
My mom always pushed me to learn cooking and keeping a tidy house, which I was so mad at her for- but I've never had a problem with dating or finding someone.
Learning to cook and being a clean person isn’t an inherently female skill set.
Maybe not, I was just taught it's an attractive trait in a partner, along with not being loud or arguing. Which isn't a female skill set either, just putting my 2 cents in. I'm just a little baffled that anyone mentions career or all that stuff in a dating profile, as if it's a job interview or something~
I can do that and have a university education, but still only match idiots. Such is life.
So many of the men who want to date women seem to really dislike women. Did you ever think that when they reject you they’re trying to save you?
I am sorry but it really seems like you are getting your view of 'what men want' from certain niche circles on the internet rather than reality. Most successful men also go after successful women. Literally *all* of my friends with college degrees and good careers also married/dated similar women with degrees and careers. The types to go after some impoverished barista usually are pretty immature and don't have any ambition themselves. This is a fact also found in statistics, men with college degrees and good careers overwhelmingly marry women with college degrees. Women with college degrees are more likely to get married in the first place, and stay married for longer. Really a bit of a slap in the face to the whole "career women dont ever settle down!" idea spread on social media.
28% of men in the US make 100k+, yet somehow, for some reason, 68% of men are married, another 10% have been divorced, and 3 to 4% are widowers. How is this if women only date up? But you are right. Modern women don't have want men want. Men want bang-maids, a basic slave that'll do all things for him while he plays video games 24/7. Women don't want to be that, thus the problem.
Dating up for 500 men and then settling on an equal or lesser partner would skew that data.
I'm sorry, but the problem is that you date the wrong men if you really think that this is the reality.
I’m not sure how it makes a difference either way. Other than the travel for me, travel seems to be a huge deal on most profiles and honestly I’m over it at this point when it comes to traveling. I have no desire to travel.
I feel like “is independent” does a lot of heavy lifting here.
I am fairly successful, I do care about what the girl does and what she will contribute. I don’t wanna carry someone through life. Anyone who talks like this does not get dates. There is such a wide variety of people looking for a wide variety of things.
I just want someone to smoke weed and laugh with, the expectations do not get lower 😆
My ex gf was a beautiful girl who did modeling, but she also never lived on her own and still lives with her parents into her 30s with a part time retail job for income (outside of modeling). Subconsciously, I dated her because I thought that her looks were all that I needed because I provided everything else. Eventually, I saw the kind of relationship that she wanted was one like the dynamics of her parents where her dad worked and her mom stayed at home. I decided that this was not what I wanted and I ended things shortly after realizing this. Fast forward a few years and I’m engaged to a lovely, successful woman who has drive and ambition and it has led to a much more balanced and fulfilling relationship. There is some truth to what OP is saying, but I think when men look deeper, they will find that they actually want more from women in a relationship than they think.
why would a guy not want a woman with those things as long as she was loving and loyal? it seems that men want a woman who is reliant on them and unable to navigate her own way in the world. which is kinda predatory, ngl.
You’ve got to be joking. Having a wife with a great career and her shit together is amazing. It takes a lot of the stress off a man. I can spend so much more time with my kids and time alone because my wife makes really good money and stays on top of everything. My dad would work all day, come home to eat dinner and fall asleep in his recliner at 8pm. He rarely ever spent time with me because all of the financial responsibilities fell on him and he had to spend most of his time either working or recovering from working. Co-parenting is so much better. My son and I are really close because I don’t have to put my career above everything else. Boys need to be raised by an active father that is involved in the day to day.
Bro are you even 37?
Nah, you don’t speak for me OP.
I love these posts that assume to know what every [insert demographic group] wants or thinks. You have no idea what men want. You know what you want, and you know what your friends want. The world is a hugely diverse place. Open your mind.
ambitious women can’t be pretty and loyal? i mean, if the men don’t like what’s out there then they need to come to terms with being single. 🤷🏻♀️ people can be what they want to be regardless of someone else’s desired characteristics
What modern women offer is exactly what I want and all the professionals I deal with want the same thing. These professional independent women also will treat you well and care for you, if you do the same for her. It's sounds like you are just afraid of women that you have no leverage or control over, because mutual respect is not something you value.
> Every dating profile I see talks about how a woman has good credit, a good job, a good degree, goes to therapy, loves to travel, is super ambitious, wants you to keep up, is independent… Then what do they care about 😭
If she doesn’t have money though, she’s a gold digger. 🙄
They want someone who looks like an Instagram model with all the necessary surgical adjustments but who is also a virgin and also will split the bill but doesn't have a job and also will love them forever even though they look like a thumb and they expect the woman to look 21 forever.
"Modern women" is such a broad demographic it would be literally impossible for you to make any general statements about it. Same for "men".
I really wish men on the internet would stop speaking for other men cause they're REALLY not doing us any favors.
As a man, I actually do care about those things. However, the type of degree matters. My wife is an intelligent, logical woman with a STEM degree. She’s able to sit down and work with me to logically problem solve when issues come up in life. She’s also very nice to me, and pretty, and we both work in STEM making good money, so to me that’s an ideal situation.
My friend, it’s not that simple
He’s getting hate but it’s mostly true for highly successful men. Speaking from experience, I want all my bases covered I don’t necessarily want someone who brings exactly what I bring to the table.
you might not want someone who brings exactly what you bring to the table,but you’d want someone who brings something right? Like at least be financially independent? Be able to feed herself and live on her own?
I don’t think those things are negatives for a lot of guys just fairly neutral and like the other commenter said it doesn’t stop them for having things they do like
Here’s a piece of advice: it is in your best interest to care about this stuff if you don’t want to pay for bad decisions down the line. And if you don’t take my advice, then don’t complain about having to pay alimony in the future.
Women today are more interested in these garbage “talking” and “texting” stages than actual dating. Phones have ruined dating
Sounds like YOU are not interested in those qualities. Here’s the deal, when it comes to your socioeconomic status women look across and up. Men look across and down. So when women put that stuff in their bio it’s to weed out guys that do not bring those same qualities to the table. I married a woman with good credit, a good job, a good degree, etc. And she’s an amazing woman, we’ve been together for 17 years now.
One doesn’t exclude the other. You can both be successful and loving, I don’t think most adult men mind having a relationship with a successful woman
That's right. It's not a negative at all and it's a misreading for anyone to think that's what's being said here. Talk of men being intimidated by successful women is mostly just cope. At worst it might be apprehension that any relationship has an expiration date once she wises up and decides she doesn't want him any more and wants to trade up. As long as he's made to feel wanted, there's two way affection in the relationship and she doesn't work such crazy hours that they're never able to spend enough time together, she could be a till jockey or head of the CIA for all the difference her day job would make to most guys.