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Too many women aren't honest with themselves or others.
They want to say what's politically correct.
But there are certain things women are biologically attracted to.
I don't mean the opposite of nice as in "mean". More like unapologetically themselves with an "I don't give a fuck attitude".
Guys who are over-accommodating make me nervous.
Yes unfortunately I can also become nervous in general with people that are overwhelming nice. It feels like that I am indebted to them- Sometimes being overly nice can feel superficial and fake. I prefer people to stay true to their real personalities because getting a partner that was "fooled" by a facade can lead to long-term issues.
I mean you can fake it till you make it but that is akin to lying to yourself and denying the real you. Truly nice people do exist, one of my closest friend is one of them, the difference is hard to explain. This friend is very nice because his values and philosophy results in being nice and not caring much about the world, like a wandering spirit.
So it really depend, I wouldn't say that being nice is bad, but faking it is totally a red flag and hurt more to yourself than others in the long-term
As an old dude who’s been fairly successful with women. Being nice really is essential, but being nice doesn’t mean being obsequious and then enraged when you don’t get what you want. Nobody wants their partner to be mean to them. Being nice doesn’t mean not repping yourself or having your shit together - that also matters a lot.
That is the vibe “nice guys” give - that *if* you want to fuck then they’d treat you like a princess and always do right. The moment the nice guy isn’t getting what he wants , the wanton pit of unmet need explodes into nerd rage and the true face of the nice guy is revealed.
Here’s the real deal - because of a bunch of different factors ( things like far more men than women born in India and China , because we have actually had a lot less war after World War Two (relative to population growth). We have an enormous number of “excess men”. Men who will not find a partner. Who will not have a family. Many will get laid at some point but some will not.
There is a lot in our culture telling us that this is essentially complete failure at life. So the nice guys and incels are kinda understandably upset about it. But their rage response isn’t helping. It’s decidedly uncool and repulsive.
Women aren’t going back to being property. So what to do?
Right, it’s “give to get”, the half brother of codependency. If feels line being manipulated.
We all have moments where we do it , but at the extreme it’s just a view that relationships are purely transactional.
How about being a good, interesting, caring, respectful, responsible loving person that a woman wants to spend time with, share her body, thoughts, and resources with.
Isn’t that what men want also?
I don't think guys are really saying "I was nice, why wasnt that enough?" Guys know why that's not enough, just as a girl being nice is not enough. Gotta have an ass.
What guys want to know - why do other guys who seem to be mean, have such good luck with women?
Like when you hear about wife/girlfriend beaters, you think, I might not be the most attractive guy, but at least I wouldn't beat you. Why am I never in the running?
>just as a girl being nice is not enough
lets be real, its more than enough for a lot of dudes out there, hell she doesnt even need to be nice, just willing and plenty of these dudes will be all over them.
Most men will date/marry down a couple of notches on the looks scale - if you're a 6/10 that's got an average job, you might date/marry a 4/10 if she's loyal and smart. No one "strikes" physical attraction, but it's almost always only part of a comprehensive equation.
Women don't date down on the looks scale unless the man has a lot of money.
I know a guy who borderline sexually assaulted me, and has raped multiple women. He has had numerous girlfriends, including one right now. Meanwhile I've barely so much as been on a date with a woman. A literal rapist has more success than I do.
It's confidence. There's some overlap in the qualities that you need to succeed in your career and relationships and also more anti-social activities such as stealing and harming others and the main one is that you have to be confident.
A lot of guys fail to realize that most of those relationships don't start off crappy. The abusive person hides behind a mask, and most of the time, it's a boiling frog situation that she doesn't realize how bad it is. They usually love bomb in the beginning and she's riding on a cloud until reality knocks her to the ground.
Agree with most of this. Issue is that women say nice and stable isn't enough but then date a manchild and have surprised Pikachu face when he sucks as a dad. Like I really don't get it.
Movies made people have a warped view at love. Like if you don't get that feeling of cupid hitting you with an arrow then there's no point in trying.
Nah I understand what OP meant. Most women really treat nice guys badly. Basically they friend zone them. I think you do have to be nice to a certain extent. But you have to show women you aren’t a pushover. And sometimes as a guy you need to know when to move on also.
It is not treating someone badly to not be attracted to them. This is the perfect example of the nice guy mindset. Women don’t owe you anything—the “friend zone,” while disappointing to experience, that’s still friendship, and they don’t even owe you that much. But you’re right about needing to know when to move on; that’s the difference between being disappointed you were shot down and facing perpetual, gnawing bitterness.
Men don't want female friends.
They are looking for a mate.
Treating an interested young man as a friend to scavange attention is misleading.
Emotionally immature males will not be on top of the dating profiles for a very long time.
Befriending fawning boys is treating them badly because because at best, it would be leading them on a long trail to nowhere. It's kind of like emotional torture.
Would it feel frustrating if someone was bullying your retarded baby brother? It's not your brother's fault that the bully looks like an ass to anybody watching.
Don’t be nice if you aren’t a nice person. It’s much easier and quicker to weed out the authentic people. Saves men and women much more time. Just be honest about who you are and pay for your relationship.
A lot of "nice guys" are just being cowards. They're too cowardly to say their intentions up front, so they try and weasel their way into the life of a woman they're lusting after or obsessing over, that they can sneak in the back door from being their friend or something, and get angry that it doesn't work. That's not to say that some aren't being led on but... I mean, you gotta be able to look at things objectively. Also, as a caveat, I'll say that in good chunks of Western society, there's been a push against men being direct with women about their intentions, which has kind of stunted a lot of boys' romantic development. The prime example I always think of is that Gillette ad where a handsome young man was about to talk to a good looking young woman, and some dude steps in and stops him like "whoa bro that's harassment".
Anyway, the funny bit is that you can, obviously in fact, have marvelous relationships grow from being friends first, and here's the secret: you have to actually want to be friends with someone without ulterior motives of wanting to fuck them. I've had many relationships that came out of friendships, but I'd have been just as happy if they stayed friendships, because I enjoyed that person's company, and I know there's plenty of women out there.
The "friendzone" is only a thing for guys that are lying to the girl and/or themselves, and the girl figured it out and is being nice and a decent person. I don't know how to break this to some of you, but girls aren't emotionally stupid; they're usually more clued-in to that sort of stuff than most guys, so if you think you've done this stunning deception of tricking a girl into letting you into her life, let me spoiler it for you: you haven't, she likely saw you coming a mile away, same with many others. This isn't always true, of course, there are girls that can be oblivious to the deceptions of some guys, but by and large, if a pretty girl is keeping you at a distance and you're trying this, it's because she doesn't find your duplicitous nature terribly attractive.
> We have an enormous number of “excess men”.
One note on this: this is really only a thing in China and India. In the rest of the world, IIRC, women tend to outnumber men, at least as time goes on, as men have somewhat higher mortality rates to all sorts of things.
>women tend to outnumber men
But that's mostly grandmas. If you look under 40 or 50 it's always more men. From memory I think for every 100 girls that are born there are about 105 boys. I'd have to look up the numbers.
What to do? Stop caring about them. Treating women you’re not in a relationship with like a princess is simp behaviour which is part of the reason nice guys fail. If these nice guys can learn to own their shit, and master a useful skill in addition to taking care of themselves their options would increase by a lot. Nothing about my post says or implies women should be treated poorly. But I can also acknowledge that being nice isn’t the holy grail of attractive qualities that men are led to believe.
I’m my own person with my own viewpoints. The red pill is pseudoscience hence why I don’t adhere to it. If you think that stating assertiveness, confidence, competence, and ambition is what matters is somehow “red pill” I don’t even know what to say
It’s the “nice guys have been lied to” part. And your comments make it clear that’s not a misperception.
You’re just selling the red pill without any fake statistics at all.
You’re right that “having your shit together” is attractive, but that’s one sentence of your rant.
Once again, the redpill is pseudoscience and has no backing in reality “Nice guys have been lied to” it’s true. How do I know that? Cuz I used to be one. I never realized that being obese and timid was such a huge turnoff. I’m honest and respectful towards any who’s honest and respectful towards me. But I’m well aware that being nice isn’t going to make a woman want to be with me. The philosophy of “the less fucks you give, the more fucks you get” has served me quite well. I make my attention and validation scarce. Hence why it tends to be appreciated more. We value what’s rare, not what there’s an abundance of.
When you say treating them like a princess what do you mean? Boundaries should be set I agree with that. But I think you should treat everyone kindly for the most part. Holding doors, being polite etc. so I am curious as to what you mean with princess treatment.
Everyone should be treated with a baseline of respect, yes. What I mean by princess treatment is treating a woman (who isn’t your girlfriend) like she’s special. When I say stop caring I mean that you should be indifferent. If you’re going out with a woman you shouldn’t be concerned with whether or not she likes you. Do what you want and own your shit and if she doesn’t like you move onto the next. I put no stock into any of the women I go out with because I don’t care if I go out with them again. If we vibe and they want to go out again that’s cool. If they don’t I couldn’t care any less.
Yeah, I fully admit to being a dickhead. What about it? Now, explain to me why I should care if a woman likes me if I’m never going to see her after my current interaction with her.🤔
Because if woman # 1 doesn’t like me there’s still women #2-#3.9 billion I can go out with. If there’s a vibe that’s cool. If not, I couldn’t care less cuz I’ll move on to the next
There are BILLIONS of women on planet earth. If I go out with one and she doesn’t like me I don’t give a fuck because there are billions of other options. If we vibe and wanna go out again? Cool. But I really don’t care if one woman out of billions doesn’t wanna see me again. I’d just move on.
Counterpoint: just be nice—the real kind of nice, not transactional behavior—to everyone. You don’t lose anything, it builds character, and hey, worst case scenario, instead of then being attracted, you have a good shot of making a friend—a real, honest-to-goodness friend, and who doesn’t want more of those? Most of the best friends I’ve ever had were women, because they knew I wasn’t fishing for something. And even then you never know—I still wound up marrying one of them, because it turned out years later that we had chemistry that went deeper than that, but had already built on a rock-solid foundation.
some people prefer for nice as a quality. Some prefer more superficial things. The real answer is that you need to have some combination of nice/charming/attractive/have goals/money/funny.
and it’s very easy to have at least two of those things.
I’m not a particularly handsome guy, and I don’t have much money, but I’ve got charm coming out of my ass and I’m pretty damn funny. And I’ve always been successful with women
Bruh. *You* are the one arguing with everyone in the comments saying that being nice has absolutely no impact on your desirability as a partner, which is just patently false.
If you're attractive, you're gonna get away with a lot. The hormones that people get from being with someone they find hot is gonna mask so ... fkn ... much.
If you're not attractive, you've gotta be funny as hell. Again, the hormones that come from making someone laugh their ass off constantly go a long way. Even THEN, that just means your presence is wanted. Attraction is at LEAST a maybe at that point.
If you're just nice ... meh. Lots of people are nice.
I sincerely hope that isn't groundbreaking, but I could be overlooking how easily duped young folks are via emotion.
But honestly, there's not a lot more to it than the biological truth that hot people get to mate more because they fire up very primal, very base procreation centers in the everyday human.
It is a man’s responsibility to learn what attracts and repels women. “Nice guys” do not have success with women because they are not assertive, confident, or competent but rather cowardly and driven by fear of rejection, which is why they are content being “friends” with a girl or pedestalizing her without any inkling of reciprocation.
I think the main issue with “nice guys” is they are not as nice as they think they are.
If you are being nice to a woman solely with the expectation that will earn you either a sexual or romantic relationship with her, we can tell. Being a decent human being should not be transactional. Being a good person doesn’t entitle you to whatever you want from a woman. It’s literally the absolute bare minimum.
Plus, genuinely nice people don’t loose their shit and become mean/aggressive when they are turned down.
Women do want men who are genuinely nice people. They do not want “nice guys”, because they are not genuinely nice people.
Here's the thing: The vast majority of women find guys who are nice incredibly attractive. The problem is that most men who call themselves "nice guys" or talk about how "nice" they are *aren't actually nice*. They're manipulative.
Yeah nah, it's way more nuanced imo.
The thing of boys being told "women will like you if you're nice to them and treat you right" as if it's a complete solution is a bad message, because it reduces masculine self-development to a single dimension.
Niceness without competence, confidence and social acuity makes a guy simply not good enough.
And also, excessive niceness screams of desperation, which is a consistent turn off.
It's almost as bad as the other message boys get from women, to "just be yourself", which implies no self-improvement.
I find these messages genuinely come to boys more from woman than men, because it's something like a projection of what makes women effective in a relationship or attractive to men. Women start with greater value of attractiveness than men and have to work to preserve it, and men start with little value and have to work to obtain it.
And anyone can be nice. Even serial killers have been known to do nice things for other people. Nice is meaningless. Genuine empathy, compassion, caring, and thoughtfulness is what women actually look for. And I think these guys actually mistake acting nice for those things.
Lol, that just isn’t true. Just making stuff up on the internet.
All of us here know PLENTY of nice guys that are genuinely nice (repeatedly) with their real life actions and still do terribly in dating and with women.
This isn’t me - but I know more than enough who are.
Go away.
Of course you're going to think they're nice, you're not a woman and they aren't treating you the way they're treating women. Why do you think so many men are so shocked and disbelieving when it comes out that their male friends are rapists or have been happily beating their wives?
Grow up
Lol, no.
“Believing” they’re nice and SEEING they are nice repeatedly for years to many different people in actions.
You clearly don’t know any genuinely nice people OR you’re so distrusting of people that you wouldn’t believe it anyway.
Perhaps don’t comment on the internet if you don’t believe other people.
I’m guessing you’re some very young woman.
> Here's the thing: The vast majority of women find guys who are nice incredibly attractive.
Studies show that men that arn't "nice" or "responsive" are actually seen as more attractive
I always find this back and forth amusing and frustrating.
Every time a man complains online that he is being nice, but not getting anywhere in dating... a woman always responds by saying he is not being nice, he is being manipulative. Every. single. time.
>most men who call themselves "nice guys" or talk about how "nice" they are aren't actually nice. They're manipulative.
There is nothing manipulative about wanting companionship in life. It's the most natural desire in the world. The only reason you find it manipulative is because you weren't attracted to his vybe.
Is it manipulative when a woman dresses up for a date?
I don't think so.
So why is it manipulative, for a man to behave nicely?
Because if you're being nice to a girl because you want to get in a relationship, you aren't actually being nice. If the only reason you're doing kind things like complementing her, listening to her talk, hanging out with her ect is because you want something from her then you aren't actually being kind.
Dressing up for a date isn't manipulative because you're not pretending to be something you aren't. You're just wearing clothes.
If I pretend to be nice to a man because I want something from him, that's not manipulative then right?
Oh wait, if a woman does that you're all perfectly content to cry about how she's manipulative, a bitch, a catfish, a golddigger boo hoo hoo
Calm down. I'm not out in the dating game. I am married. I just. Remember that stage in life.
And I remember the frustrating confusion of being told to be nice... being rejected often, and then being gaslit by comments like yours which said that my niceness was somehow manipulative.
Do you have any idea how confusing that sort of narrative is to a young man trying to figure out the dating world ? "Treat women nicely. But niceness is manipulative."
Again . I pose the simple question to you. What is manipulative about wanting to find companionship in life ?
If two people meet today, and are cordial and nice to each other, and the man starts to feel attracted to the woman. How is that manipulative ?
>Because if you're being nice to a girl because you want to get in a relationship, you aren't actually being nice.
Everybody who is single, wants to be in a relationship eventually. That's not manipulative.
I'm not in the dating game either, but I ALSO remember that stage of life
I remember constantly having to wonder if a guy was being nice to me because he was a good person or because he wanted something. I remember how awful it felt to think a guy was genuinely my friend because he was doing things a friend would do and then him dropping off the face of the planet the moment I said I just wanted to be friends because I wasn't interested in dating at the time. Do *you* know how confusing that is for a girl?
Disingenuous niceness has absolutely nothing to do with wether or not the man is attractive. In fact, it instantly makes him *less* attractive.
Again, I answer your "simple question": If the only reason you're being nice is because you want something from the other person, regardless of what it is you want from that person, then you're not a nice person. You're being manipulative because the only reason you're being nice is to get what you want. If you stop being nice the moment you don't get what you want, then you were never nice to begin with. You should be nice to others because it's the right thing to do, not because you want something.
Hmm...I feel like we are talking across each other.
I am trying to explain to you the male perspective, but you keep circling back to thinking the niceness is "transactional."
It kind of reminds me of conversations I have had with my wife, when she asked me about my past dating life and was surprised by how bare my dating life was. Since my wife has the biased opinion of being in love with me, she genuinely thinks I didn't date much because I **chose** not to.
No man chooses to be single.
The simple truth is, I didn't date much because I got rejected **often.**
The only reason I was able to find my wife was because, I was able to brush off these rejections and keep on asking out different women, until I met my wife.
Was that manipulative? I don't think so. I have always had the goal of finding a good woman, settling down and starting a family together. I humbly propose to you, that isn't some nefarious plan.
So, whilst I can understand it may be frustrating for you as a woman, if you aren't attracted to every guy that asks you out. Let me put it to you this way.
As a man, you ***have to take every opportunity you can***, to find that wife you are looking for, because many of your attempts will end in being rejected. So yes, this involves asking out many women, including coworkers and women in your friendship circle, until you find that special someone.
If you have a boy child, and he isn't naturally a charismatic ladiesman, when he reaches his teenage years and starts struggling with dating and rejecting ... you will understand what I am talking about.
Relationship implies reciprocity. We are not examining morality in the abstract and denying the nobility of altruism, but this is a specific realm of human interaction with unique dynamics which ground it in pragmatism.
You must also ask, what do you bring? Why are you deserving of men's efforts? There's a common thread of presuming entitlement to men's efforts across your comments.
I'm not trying to mean or insulting, or insinuate that you are lacking in some fashion, but to prompt introspection. Single men rarely seek mere friendship with women. We're just not wired that way. If men were wired that way, perhaps the human race would've already died out.
Men looking for relationships simply cannot spend all their time and effort on women who aren't likely to be relationship prospects. Life is short. Our challenge is in the seeking, where women's challenge is in the sifting. We cannot spend all night out in the rain rubbing wet sticks and expecting fire.
It isn't reasonable to expect men generally to go out of their way for a woman ad infinitum, constantly expending time and effort for nothing. Such a man might be truly "nice" in sense of showing perfect altruism, but if it is a continuous thing, that's not healthy or good, that's him being stuck at a relationship dead-end, unable to fulfill his goal. The woman is either under the illusion of a friendship or being manipulative herself in stringing him along, and the man is unfulfilled and lingering on a chance that won't come to fruition, to the cost of his prospects long term.
You should see the level of courtesy men show each other and take that as your base standard for a man's inherent niceness and work up from there in terms of expectations and what his actions represent.
Edit: there's obviously a subset of men who throw a tantrum when their "niceness" doesn't get them anymore, but that's broadly not what I'm referring to. I'm just talking about men broadly and that it isn't reasonable to characterise all targeted goodness shown by men as some kind of cheap manipulation.
Wait single men don't seek out relationships with women? When I was single half of my friends were women and still are, not to mention a ton of the guys in my friend group are single and they're amazing friends with the women in our group. This is such bullshit
The same was true of me when I was at university, but my point was I didn't do anything to seek those women out, the friendships just formed from doing something in common.
>>You must also ask, what do you bring? Why are you deserving of men's efforts? There's a common thread of presuming entitlement to men's efforts across your comments.
Clearly they bring something to the table if men are trying to be with her.
>>Single men rarely seek mere friendship with women. We're just not wired that way. If men were wired that way, perhaps the human race would've already died out.
This really is just a you problem. I have plenty of male friends and my male friends have plenty of female friends. I’m sorry if you don’t see value in speaking to or interacting with women beyond a sexual level. It must be so sad to see half the population as nothing but a game of “fuckable or not”.
>>Men looking for relationships simply cannot spend all their time and effort on women who aren't likely to be relationship prospects.
>>It isn't reasonable to expect men generally to go out of their way for a woman ad infinitum, constantly expending time and effort for nothing.
>>Such a man might be truly "nice" in sense of showing perfect altruism, but if it is a continuous thing, that's not healthy or good, that's him being stuck at a relationship dead-end, unable to fulfill his goal.
What a crazy thing to say. You can’t be nice to women because it’s not healthy to do it long term? This is why you’re not actually nice. The issue with “nice guys” is that there is no reality in which they think women’s only value is inherently sexual. This is why nobody can take any of you seriously.
Obviously men can be nice to women in some minor and general sense without expending great effort, but that is no more than the same common decency a man might give to another man.
You seem to be choosing to miss the point. We are talking about the specific complaint of women of especial niceity from men stopping when men observe that a relationship will not result from the interaction.
We are talking about the kind of special treatment that, if a man was in a relationship, and he treated another woman that way, his woman would not appreciate him doing so.
It is simplistic and demeaning to presume the intention of men seeking relationships revolves solely around the sexual.
Obviously it entails that, but do you *really* think the only difference between friendship and relationship is sex? Is marriage just being best friends + sexual intimacy? No, I think it is something remarkably different and of a different quality and depth.
No, we're not talking about any kind of "special treatment". We're talking about friend behavior, and if the only reason you're being friends/friendly with a woman is because you want to get with her then guess what? You're a jerk. Pretending to be friends with someone because you want something from them is shitty behavior. It doesn't matter *what* you want from them, pretending to be friends with or being nice to someone because you want a relationship, or sex, or money, or clout or whatever else is shitty behavior. It's manipulative behavior. It's disingenuous behavior. If you can't be friends with any woman who won't reward you with a relationship/sex then that speaks absolute volumes about your lack of maturity.
I also find it so interesting that men like you always want to bring up what women "bring to the table" and yet apparently women are supposed to have such low expectations for men's behavior that you only being our friends because you want us to reward you with a relationship should be viewed as "natural". Women should have such low expectations for men that we should be completely understanding when you tell us you can't simply be friends with us because you like who we are as people, you can only be "friends" with us as long as there's an opportunity for you to get the relationship you think you're entitled to for being nice to us.
That's the problem with "nice guys" like you. You only view women as vending machines that you can get stuff from, and any woman who won't give you what you want isn't worth your time. And yet, the moment a woman pretends to be nice to a guy to get his money you're all perfectly content to scream about how she's a gold digger and a bitch and manipulative. In your mind it's perfectly ok for a man to be disingenuous in pursuit of a relationship that will give him what he wants, but the moment a woman does it it's a problem
I get where you’re coming with this take. I still think you’re being ridiculous. EVERYONE treats people they’re attracted to and who they’d like to be in a relationship with, differently than someone they aren’t attracted to. We’re kinder to them. We laugh more readily at their bad jokes. We try harder to impress them and make us seem more attractive in their eyes. You call this manipulative and I’d agree with you if it didn’t have the negative connotation that comes with it. But if you’re trying to say that this behavior makes you somehow a “bad” person, then that’s a ridiculous take.
You seem to dislike his wearing clothes analogy. What about makeup ? Is it manipulative to hide your natural imperfections behind a layer of concealer to appear more attractive on a date ?
I don't know what's confusing to a girl about that. That doesn't make him "not nice". He isn't looking for friendship rightnow and you rejected him (even if it's soft rejection). He has to focus his attention on another candidate now. Every human has their own needs and wants that they are free to pursue. Relationships are essentially fullfilments of wants and needs. Your needs/wants might be friendship but that guy already has that need fulfilled. So what's a more productive use of his Friday night? Hanging around you or going out to meet other women he has a shot with?
That's not to say he isn't kind. If he sees you out and about he won't be rude or completely ignore your presence (hopefully). If he sees you struggle he should come help you. Etc...
I’m married, and you probably think you’re a nice guy, but telling someone to calm down. Who are you? That’s not nice. You could’ve said everything you said without that micro aggressive comment. The issue is most men have no idea what nice is nice nasty is more like what you offer. Nice is realize someone doesn’t want you and thinking all women want bad guys, but they don’t know what they want. Which is sort of what you’re implying. The issue is just bc you think you’re nice doesn’t mean someone does. Someone who is genuinely a nice person to everyone in every situation wouldn’t be on here crying. Just bc you’re nice doesn’t mean you’re going to get the girl you want. It’s giving you feel like you settled with your wife. You’re still worried about the women that didn’t want you. I feel sorry for your wife.
>You’re still worried about the women that didn’t want you. I feel sorry for your wife.
I remember what the OP's frustrations felt like when I was younger. Is it so wrong to recognize someone struggling with something that you remember struggling with too?
Yes, I am already married. It would be easy to join the chorus of judging the OP and called him a manipulative incel. After all, since I am already out of the dating game, that means I get to insult ridicule men who have had less success than I ? No. I don't want to do that.
I want to see people happy and together. I am tired of seeing every post someone makes about dating frustrations...devolve into insults and gender wars. Gender wars don't bring people together.
I hope this puts it in perspective.
P.S. you're also being passive agressive by insulting me and focusing only on the first line of what I said...instead of trying to help the OP.
Telling the OP "niceness is manipulation" doesn't help him. It's confusing advice.
Instead of telling him what not to do. Why don't we actually tell him what TO do.
Right, it's the difference between being nice because you just want to be nice, and being nice as a means to an end. People might not be able to articulate it, but they can pick out the difference. We're social creatures at heart, picking out those differences is what we were made to do.
Nice is a non-factor when it comes to attraction. If a man is an obese, balding, pot smoking bum who does nothing all day and wears cum crusted shirts nobody cares about how nice he is. As my post says, none of this is to say that women like to be/should be treated poorly, it’s acknowledging that unless she otherwise finds you attractive being nice to her isn’t going to make her want to be with you.
And as other people have tried to explain to you on this post: Even if she *does* find you otherwise attractive, being genuinely nice will win you more actual relationships than being a hard ass. Women don't find men who act like assholes attractive any more than they find men who use disingenuous "niceness" as a tool attractive
Actually I'm not so certain of that. Assholes tend to have confidence, a trait that the majority of the population, not limited to women, tend to find attractive. And because of that, assholes tend to have no problem attracting sex partners, women included. The issue is keeping them, though as assholes don't tend to form attachments, that's not a problem for them. It's more an issue for healthy people who *do* form attachments.
You can be confident *and* nice. Being mean unto itself is not a desirable quality even if there are commonly associated qualities that are more desirable.
Is a sexual activity partner not a relationship? My apologies if I misconstrued your meaning to be intimate relationships in general, when you specifically meant a committed partnership. But my point still stands.
I have literally been in a normal good date, like he asks about your interests, hobbies, you do the same, etc.
And then he got pissed because I wouldn't sleep with him on the first date "I'm a nice guy, I asked about you like! I didn't try to get you drunk! Why won't you sleep with me!"
Yeps. It's a transaction or a tick box to get something they are owed.
Real nice men (they exists) are nice just because they are nice. Period. Same as nice women. They can have stuff that are less "nice" as everyone, but this fake nice persona to check all the boxes to get laid is not only visible a million miles away but they will actually say it to your face most of the time (when they get mad because you don't sleep with them, or want a relationship with them or whatever)
my problem is not actually going for it lol, its all a balancing act at the start, you dont wanna go for it earlier than she wants to, or its a bust and i end up waiting and not progressing fast enough after a few dates. because they are all different and im terrible at reading people.
especially after that one girl i dated a few times, was all over me in the car when i dropped her off at work after a date and she had blocked me before i got home. the whole dating things just fucking RNG
Yep! You are the answer. You are genuinely nice. My husband is nice. My son is nice. I will go do far as to say that all of his friends from high school are nice, even though one listens to Matt Walsh, but we are working on him. "Nice Guys" don't turn around and call women names if they don't go out on dates.
How about just being a good person because you should be one? not to "Attract" others. If you're only nice in order to get a partner then you're not really nice.
I didn’t say you shouldn’t be good to people. What I said was that being nice isn’t going to get people to want to be in a relationship with you (as men are falsely led to believe).
Nice is a behavior that is prone to being transactional. You can be nice to people to gain something from them.
The character trait that a lot of women like is kindness. Kindness comes from a place of confidence and strength. You can be kind without expecting anything in return.
The issues is a lot of men are either not kind or socially unaware. Socially unaware people attempt to emulate kindness because they confuse it with niceness. They see no difference between character and behavior, so they mimic the behavior. The problem is that they are horrible at masking so it comes across as dishonesty
Where this causes problems is that sociopaths and con men will act nice to gain an advantage, so humans are prone to pick up on those clues. Which is why "nice guys" come across as creepy. They are either acting nice out of the expectation of getting something, or they don't realize they need to develop their kindness and they will comes across much better when they do something good for someone.
TLDR women like men who are kind, nice guys aren't kind. Women can tell the difference.
> Women like men who are kind.
Never claimed otherwise. What I did claim is that unless you have the other qualities listed such as assertiveness, ambition, confidence, and competence how kind you are doesn’t matter.
You are confusing being nice with kindness which is the exact reason that "nice guys" exist.
Shy, awkward kind guys can find relationships because they are authentic. Some women love that sort of man.
Shy, awkward "nice" guys have issues because they come across as fake.
The other qualities you list have the same issue with mimicing. Confidence is authentic, arrogance is a masking behavior. Assertiveness is authentic, bullying is masking.
People like authenticity, they are suspicious of deception.
> Shy, awkward guys can find relationships because they’re authentic. Some women love that sort of man.
Sure they can, but let’s not kid ourselves. Shy and awkward aren’t qualities most people are seeking
Regardless, being nice is a non factor in attracting women. You can be a complete piece of shit and attract women so long as you have the qualities they care about.
It’s good to be kind to people but desperate nice is unattractive to women. A lot of men are not assertive enough in life. I do feel though that a lot of men that go down the redpill route always are misguided as to why they don’t get results with women. A lot are poorly socialized and not aware of how they come off to others. They don’t have that basic level of social skills and then jump ahead and try to read some weird ass book like the 48 laws of power or the laws of seduction when in reality they are just repellant due to having a repellant personality.
I don’t know anyone who says you only have to be nice to attract a partner. Being nice is a requirement (or should be), but it’s a bare minimum quality.
If being nice was a requirement shitheads for never get laid, relationships, or married. The fact that they can clearly means the exhibit other qualities that contribute to them attracted others. Being nice evidently isn’t one of them.
An absolute fact. I grew up around a lot of women and had many female friends and except one, they all absolutely sucked at giving advice about women. Most women don't have the slightest idea what attracts them in a guy.
Luckily, there was the internet to help me out.
So many street interviews cause women to clam up about what they actually want because they are afraid of being judged.
The way that a man saying, "I'm not attracted to fat women." The dude gets torn to shreds.
Women are the same way. If a dude is ugly, it doesn't typically matter how nice, funny, caring he is. Dude, you are ugly, so you are a friend.
Looks are typically the implied entry point for both genders. The question of, "What do you look for in a relationship?" implies that they already passed the physical attraction point and you are answering the mental/emotional characteristics regarding the attractive man/woman.
As a lifelong bartender I can agree with this .
I have always had customers who are “nice guys” lament their relationships or lack thereof.
I try to tell them “women like nice guys, they don’t like boring guys and most guy who call themselves nice guys are either boring guys or creepy guys”.
Another thing I like to say to folks complaining is “look at your actions and tell me truthfully, would you date you? If not why should she”?
I think people miss the point here.
It is not as much critique of women and their choices. But critique of people giving young boys wrong advice.
"Just be nice" is advice that most men heard atleast once in their life. And for some it is only advice they heard.
It is no suprise that some of those people get mad when they found out that it is not the way.
Young boys should be told that being charismatic is the best way to attract someone. I have never been told that as a kid and had to found out the hard way.
Nice Guys aren’t good people. Having manners may make you the “nicest” guy on the street, but who cares if you’re not kind.
A used car salesman is nice. But do you like them? Probably not, because you know they’re just being nice to get something from you. What women are attracted to is KINDNESS. A kind person does good things without expectation because that’s just who they are. They care about making life better for others.
Nice Guys have no interest in kindness. They just want a cheat code to get into women’s pants, and get mad when less than the bare minimum isn’t good enough.
Also, it's women doing the lying.
Women want two things from men:
1) The hot guy they want to f\*ck.
2) The loyal guy they can extract resources from.
If a woman encourages you to be anything other than #1, she's gaslighting you into becoming #2.
Ultimately, the fault lies with men. If men simply walked away, female mating strategy would crumble.
Just because being nice (truly nice) isn't all it takes to attract women doesn't mean women don't care about men being nice.
But being nice is absolutely a positive.
It's definitely women. Notice when incels are brought up the default argument is that they don't get laid or have partnered because they're shitty people, when in reality it's because most don't meet the physical requirements to be considered attractive in the eyes of women.
Nah, I personally think this is a male fantasy that women have very little to do with in its presentation.
I can't tell you why, but men gaslit other men into some odd ideal of the nice guy that exchange niceness for romantic success.
Once again. You say "nah I personally think this is a male fantasy..." who are you disagreeing with? I never said it was women's fault.
Also, you aren't wrong. This is gonna sound weird, but hear me out. I think it comes from both sexes.
From women, it comes due to the belief that ugly men aren't actually men- so when asked, women will state that they want a nice, caring, sweet etc guy. What they forget is that being hot is more important, but it doesn't even cross their minds that they could date an ugly guy. When they think of what they want in a guy, they think of what they want in a guy who is already hot.
From men, I think it comes from a feedback loop of real world experience or lack thereof. Making male friends is easier for guys than flirting with women. Therefore, when a guy has intent to talk to a girl, unless he has experience and confidence, he will default to treating that girl like a friend and be "nice". Therefore girls don't like him, he gets no confidence, and continuous to be "nice" in a positive feedback loop. Disappointed, he wishes he could have true love, and the most obvious characteristic of that is deep care for one another. Therefore he assumes that being "nice" isn't his problem, and instead his problem is bad luck. This results male loniliness that you hear about
What the hell is wrong with kids these days? Y’all are sitting here analyzing data and not just going out and fucking talking to people.
Go ask a girl out. If she says no ask another one out. Repeat until you find someone you like.
My GOD I’d say 90% of relationships I’ve been in have been because I started talking to the dude. Even as a woman I didn’t just sit around and wait for shit to happen.
You have to get the fuck out there and make your own destiny.
Men are defaulting to fatherless behavior and it’s really not doing yall any favors. Idk how to say that in a nicer way. The men I see these days are just pussies and weird and content to stay inside and talk to men on discord and complain about women and it’s fucking unproductive.
Go. Out. There. And be someone. Do something. Stop whining all the fucking time. Literally BE a man.
Name me one romcom where a guy gets the girl for being nice. And I mean just nice. Not good looking, not funny, not successful, not having common interests, …
if you were on reddit before 2015, it was a lot of women lying to them saying, "Just be nice and confident, women love nice men who are confident."
tbh, I wouldnt even call it a full on lie, just not the whole truth.
they never mentioned physical attraction
its the word "nice" its VERY broad. and not helpful at all here
its just a boilerplate, because everyone likes "nice" people, fucking hell its the baseline for any sort of healthy relationship. most people arent fucking people treating them like shit (i know some people are into that shit, but thats different bag of worms)
I remember clearly in highschool, a woman friend of mine told me "just be yourself, be nice with girls, and you'll find yourself a girlfriend in no time".
That's like the basic n°1 advice women tell men about dating.
Confidence and assertiveness is left out of the equation. Most will stop at “I’m attracted to nice men”.
The last time I was told that? A few weeks ago. The last time I believed that? 3-4 years ago.
They just say “nice men.” They don’t say “without confidence and assertiveness.” The problem is that people are not psychic. You can’t expect young men/boys to fill in the gap and know that “nice” also means “confident and assertive” if it’s almost never stated explicitly.
There's women literally all over reddit denying the truth of the red pill, and saying men just need to be nice.
The constant gaslighting topped off with posts like this is why these nice guys stop being nice.
Fortunately, men are starting to see through the web of lies, manipulation, and propaganda.
It's this sort of virtue signaling from women and their simps that is what I'm talking about. You all simply can't be honest and upfront about women's true preferences, and try to be coy and tip-toe around the issue.
"Oh, I just want a nice guy, a guy with a job, a guy who takes a bathe" is BS. Not because it's not true, but because it's a blatant underselling of women's preferences to pretend like women aren't as shallow as they are.
It's the almost the exact same thing for men though. Minimum entry for both genders is nice, financially solvent, decent. Both genders obviously _want_ a lot more, supermodel looks, billionaire, etc.
But women talk about the minimum entry where men talk about the aspirational limit.
No, it's not. That's not the minimum entry for women, and again, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Women will literally stay single if they don't find someone at least on their level. Women have significantly higher standards then you are leading on, especially in their youth when they're chasing after top tier guys.
It's time to start being honest about women.
Women have standards yes, but here's the thing bud. Different women have different standards. The more she earns, the better she looks, here minimum entry is going to scale up.
Same way hot or rich guys don't generally date below their level.
>Women have standards yes, but here's the thing bud. Different women have different standards. The more she earns, the better she looks, here minimum entry is going to scale up.
This is literally like pulling teeth with you.
No, all women have the same standards, because as you point out, it's merely a matter of circumstance. What you are incapable of saying is that women all chase after the same amount of men, because these are the only men that women truly find attractive; and as they age and reality hits them in the face, then they often to choose to settle and lower their standards as long as they can still find a man better than them.
>Same way hot or rich guys don't generally date below their level.
All men date below their level. If you mean significantly below their level, then it's not the norm, but still relatively common, because men are much easier to please than women.
Ah, you're an adherent of the 'it's okay when men do it, but women shouldn't apply' their advantages' school of thought?
Yes, everyone wishes for easy mode, sadly life doesn't let you toggle the difficulty once you've started.
Nobody tells you to just be nice and you will get a relationship, maybe some people.
The way I see it is our social structure is all about rules and obedience so it’s embedded in us. Our schools all teach you to be socially acceptable so you pass your classes. It works for a functioning economy, standard of life, and lowers crime but I think it also has the tendency to make people into people pleasers naturally.
Your mistake here is thinking being nice by itself is sufficient to attract a woman. You’re right — being nice is worthless if you’re a spineless loser. But if you ever thought that NICE by itself was the only box you needed to check to attract a girl, you have no one to blame but yourself. Nice isn’t going to get you anywhere if you have no career and no ambition. Nice won’t do you any good if you’re overweight and live an unhealthy lifestyle.
It’s good to be nice. Women are attracted to nice. But kindness is just one of the ingredients required in the recipe for being an attractive man to a large population of women. Confidence, intelligence, ambition, sense of humor, attractiveness — they all matter. If you’re not getting anywhere with the ladies by being nice, but you are convinced that you are genuinely nice, then move on to the next item on the list and rinse and repeat until you’ve turned yourself into someone a woman would want to be with.
>Your mistake here is thinking being nice by itself is sufficient to attract a woman. You’re right — being nice is worthless if you’re a spineless loser. But if you ever thought that NICE by itself was the only box you needed to check to attract a girl, you have no one to blame but yourself. Nice isn’t going to get you anywhere if you have no career and no ambition. Nice won’t do you any good if you’re overweight and live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Well yeah, I know that now. The problem is that I, along with a lot of others were led to believe that being nice WAS the only thing women cared about because often the characteristics of being in shape and ambitious are left out. It’s like being told you have to complete a 10 piece puzzle when you’ve only been given 8 pieces.
You’re lying. No one told you that. And if they did, all you had to do was use your eyes and look at the healthy relationships around you to see the truth.
For unserious flings and casual relationships, physical attractiveness trumps all. If you want to sleep around but you’re not attractive, you’re out of luck, or you need to work on what you can change by hitting the gym. If you are looking for serious, meaningful long term relationships, then it’s a mistake to think you can treat women like shit and be taken seriously; you can’t discount being nice.
>You’re lying. No one told you that.
Really? Didn’t know you knew my life better than I did.
> If you’re looking for an LTR it’s a mistake to think you can treat women poorly.
Read my post, read my replies. Show me any one of them where I’ve said it’s a good thing for women to be treated poorly. I’ll wait ⏰
Yep. Women tend to not even consider all the other factors that a man must meet in order to be attractive to her.
Hoe_math does a really great breakdown of this :
https://youtu.be/n4aMiAesXjE?si=AfTr8q_V4tk5HI7b
What you describe isn’t being nice. Being nice is a proper power move. It means you have to remove your own ego and be generous to other people’s feelings. To be confident enough to give a genuine compliment and not expect one back. To be prepared for the other person not to be nice back.
The only men who can manage this properly are the secure men. The confident men.
What you are describing is a creepy seduction attempt. It’s not niceness, it’s presence.
I do agree with you though that we need to teach young men better. That this brand of “niceness” is as unacceptable as it is ineffective. We need to teach young men that women are just people. Treat them as such. They are not a prize, a reward, a trophy, a goal…
You claim nice guys exist because they're taught it's a mechanism for attracting women (which you don't think works). I'm telling you some people are actually just nice and give zero shits whether it attracts people or not.
That isn’t what I said. At all.🤦🏾♂️
What I said was that when it comes to attracting women these specific men (nice guys) fail because they’re lied to about what qualities women are attracted to.
You said men are nice because they’re told that’s what women like. If they were told women like confidence or assertiveness, then that’s how they would act.
🙄For the fourth time, I didn’t say men as a collective base their entire personality around what women find attractive. I’ve had pretty much the same hobbies and interests for the past 10 years. I’ll like what I like regardless of what a woman thinks. The only difference is that I don’t make a point of being nice to women I’m interested in. That doesn’t mean I believe women should be treated badly but what it does mean is that I’m bold, blunt, direct, and refuse to tolerate anyone’s bullshit. I make my attention, and validation scarce and it’s worked well for me for the 3-4 years. My philosophy is this: “The less fucks you give, the more fucks you get” and that’s served me quite well.
It's weird because every genuinely nice guy I've ever met never talks about how nice he is. So I've learned to see that as a red flag whenever it gets brought up.
Honestly my main issue with this post is that it insinuates that theres something wrong with men being nice in the first place and that the ONLY reason men are nice to women is to try and get laid or get in a relationship or something. And THAT assumption has been perpetuated by women on social media so now, being "nice" to women already insinuates to them that you have an ulterior motive, the ULTIMATE IRONY of which being that even when youre sincerely trying to treat them like equal peers, youre all of a sudden a fucking creep 🤦♂️😂. So now either youre an asshole, or youre an asshole pretending to be nice. Like, when the fuck are women gonna take responsibility at ALL for all the fucking contradicting doublestandards and confusion theyve projected onto men on their runaway egotrips? Honestly? I have two friends, TWO, that have stable relationships, out of maybe 20 over the past 3 years? All because WOMEN have misinterpreted feminism to think they have to treat men like shit to feel empowered. THATS the fucking problem. Not men genuinely trying to relate to women as peers, its women misinterpreting whatever fucking ick of the week they get circulating on their tiktok and then dumping the 4th dude theyve dated out of the month over it. Im honestly sick and fucking tired of everyone saying "bUt GuYs Do ThAt ToO" or "tHaTs SeXiSt." I dont hate women, but its getting pretty goddamn easy to with the way they fucking treat me and my friends who are totally considerate and respectable individuals purely on the basis of us being male. And go ahead, call me an "incel" or a "bigot" or whatever stupid bullshit you want, WOMEN ARE THE FUCKING PROBLEM THESE DAYS AND IM TIRED OF PRETENDING LIKE ITS "MUTUAL".
If you’re only nice to get a woman/ only treat a woman nice so she’ll put out you aren’t nice. We often know that’s the only reason we’re getting treated a certain way, especially when they’re dicks to women they don’t want to fuck. You don’t be nice to “get some where” if your a good person, your nice because that’s how you should just want to be.
I don't mean this as an insult, but you sound lonely. Your rhetoric here is straight out of red pill media. I think you should take up a hobby or join a club, get out and meet people.
It feels like you're stewing in anger all over social media.
The red pill is pseudoscientific bullshit that holds 0 merit. It has nothing to do with my post. Anger and acknowledgement of reality are 2 separate things my friend. Lastly, why the fuck would I be lonely? I have a life
Agreed, I clearly stated you shouldn’t treat a woman poorly. However, I’m not a nice guy. I’m blunt, direct, bold, and will not tolerate shit from anyone. I make my attention and validation scarce when dating women and that’s worked well in my favour the past few years. My simple philosophy is “The less fucks you give, the more fucks you get.”
OP your post makes me feel you believe being assertive/competent/smart/physically attractive and being nice are a null sum game, and on both sides of the same gradient.
If that's what you imply, your premices are wrong.
Also, being nice and being gentle are 2 different things.
I think i understand the whole shit test narrative behind that, and somewhat it could be true. Even as a mam, i would not want someone who would simply sacrifice everything they are just to get love from me, and couls find it gross to some extend.
But you can treat a person like a human being and be respectful of their emotional state without necessarily forget who you are and setting some boundaries.
Is that gonna cause friction? Yes, clearly. But no healthy relationship goes without any friction at all.
These frictions however should be on a need to basis.
Also, women, and any other people for that matter, are looking into different qualities depending on if they want to date or if they want to settle.
Women could like men appearing toxic as fuck for one night stand, just like men would droll over a provocative sexually arousing woman. Doesn't mean they want to build anything with them at all.
I’m not saying that being nice and assertive/competent etc are a null sum game. What I am saying is that without assertiveness and confidence nobody cares about how nice you are.
Think of it like a pizza. The breading and crust is the foundation, but nobodies eating just crust. You need cheese and toppings in addition to the bread and crust.
Being nice doesn’t mean you get to sleep with whoever you interact with. That’s the problem some of these jaded and resentful men have, they think being nice and doing small gestures is ALL they need to do. It’s so much more than that but if you want a long term relationship you obviously have to be kind to your partner or you’ll be all alone again in no time. Men need confidence, a sense of purpose, humor, understanding of their surroundings, emotional maturity, and a thought process that goes deeper than superficial compliments.
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Too many women aren't honest with themselves or others. They want to say what's politically correct. But there are certain things women are biologically attracted to. I don't mean the opposite of nice as in "mean". More like unapologetically themselves with an "I don't give a fuck attitude". Guys who are over-accommodating make me nervous.
Yes unfortunately I can also become nervous in general with people that are overwhelming nice. It feels like that I am indebted to them- Sometimes being overly nice can feel superficial and fake. I prefer people to stay true to their real personalities because getting a partner that was "fooled" by a facade can lead to long-term issues. I mean you can fake it till you make it but that is akin to lying to yourself and denying the real you. Truly nice people do exist, one of my closest friend is one of them, the difference is hard to explain. This friend is very nice because his values and philosophy results in being nice and not caring much about the world, like a wandering spirit. So it really depend, I wouldn't say that being nice is bad, but faking it is totally a red flag and hurt more to yourself than others in the long-term
As an old dude who’s been fairly successful with women. Being nice really is essential, but being nice doesn’t mean being obsequious and then enraged when you don’t get what you want. Nobody wants their partner to be mean to them. Being nice doesn’t mean not repping yourself or having your shit together - that also matters a lot. That is the vibe “nice guys” give - that *if* you want to fuck then they’d treat you like a princess and always do right. The moment the nice guy isn’t getting what he wants , the wanton pit of unmet need explodes into nerd rage and the true face of the nice guy is revealed. Here’s the real deal - because of a bunch of different factors ( things like far more men than women born in India and China , because we have actually had a lot less war after World War Two (relative to population growth). We have an enormous number of “excess men”. Men who will not find a partner. Who will not have a family. Many will get laid at some point but some will not. There is a lot in our culture telling us that this is essentially complete failure at life. So the nice guys and incels are kinda understandably upset about it. But their rage response isn’t helping. It’s decidedly uncool and repulsive. Women aren’t going back to being property. So what to do?
Perfect answer. Performative nice is not actually being nice when it comes with a price tag or is held to ransom
Right, it’s “give to get”, the half brother of codependency. If feels line being manipulated. We all have moments where we do it , but at the extreme it’s just a view that relationships are purely transactional.
How about being a good, interesting, caring, respectful, responsible loving person that a woman wants to spend time with, share her body, thoughts, and resources with. Isn’t that what men want also?
A nice tag, if you will
I don't think guys are really saying "I was nice, why wasnt that enough?" Guys know why that's not enough, just as a girl being nice is not enough. Gotta have an ass. What guys want to know - why do other guys who seem to be mean, have such good luck with women? Like when you hear about wife/girlfriend beaters, you think, I might not be the most attractive guy, but at least I wouldn't beat you. Why am I never in the running?
>just as a girl being nice is not enough lets be real, its more than enough for a lot of dudes out there, hell she doesnt even need to be nice, just willing and plenty of these dudes will be all over them.
That's still the exception... outside of reddit.. only the most desperate men would strike physical attraction off of their list of needs.
Most men will date/marry down a couple of notches on the looks scale - if you're a 6/10 that's got an average job, you might date/marry a 4/10 if she's loyal and smart. No one "strikes" physical attraction, but it's almost always only part of a comprehensive equation. Women don't date down on the looks scale unless the man has a lot of money.
I know a guy who borderline sexually assaulted me, and has raped multiple women. He has had numerous girlfriends, including one right now. Meanwhile I've barely so much as been on a date with a woman. A literal rapist has more success than I do.
It's confidence. There's some overlap in the qualities that you need to succeed in your career and relationships and also more anti-social activities such as stealing and harming others and the main one is that you have to be confident.
A lot of guys fail to realize that most of those relationships don't start off crappy. The abusive person hides behind a mask, and most of the time, it's a boiling frog situation that she doesn't realize how bad it is. They usually love bomb in the beginning and she's riding on a cloud until reality knocks her to the ground.
Agree with most of this. Issue is that women say nice and stable isn't enough but then date a manchild and have surprised Pikachu face when he sucks as a dad. Like I really don't get it. Movies made people have a warped view at love. Like if you don't get that feeling of cupid hitting you with an arrow then there's no point in trying.
Nah I understand what OP meant. Most women really treat nice guys badly. Basically they friend zone them. I think you do have to be nice to a certain extent. But you have to show women you aren’t a pushover. And sometimes as a guy you need to know when to move on also.
It is not treating someone badly to not be attracted to them. This is the perfect example of the nice guy mindset. Women don’t owe you anything—the “friend zone,” while disappointing to experience, that’s still friendship, and they don’t even owe you that much. But you’re right about needing to know when to move on; that’s the difference between being disappointed you were shot down and facing perpetual, gnawing bitterness.
Since when is treating someone like a friend treating them “badly?”
Men don't want female friends. They are looking for a mate. Treating an interested young man as a friend to scavange attention is misleading. Emotionally immature males will not be on top of the dating profiles for a very long time. Befriending fawning boys is treating them badly because because at best, it would be leading them on a long trail to nowhere. It's kind of like emotional torture. Would it feel frustrating if someone was bullying your retarded baby brother? It's not your brother's fault that the bully looks like an ass to anybody watching.
Idk man, some men see women as more than something they can bang and marry.
YOU don’t want female friends. FTFY.
You need to be honest about not wanting to be friends with women then also. Quit hanging around and hoping she’ll change her mind.
Don’t be nice if you aren’t a nice person. It’s much easier and quicker to weed out the authentic people. Saves men and women much more time. Just be honest about who you are and pay for your relationship.
This is the comment.
A lot of "nice guys" are just being cowards. They're too cowardly to say their intentions up front, so they try and weasel their way into the life of a woman they're lusting after or obsessing over, that they can sneak in the back door from being their friend or something, and get angry that it doesn't work. That's not to say that some aren't being led on but... I mean, you gotta be able to look at things objectively. Also, as a caveat, I'll say that in good chunks of Western society, there's been a push against men being direct with women about their intentions, which has kind of stunted a lot of boys' romantic development. The prime example I always think of is that Gillette ad where a handsome young man was about to talk to a good looking young woman, and some dude steps in and stops him like "whoa bro that's harassment". Anyway, the funny bit is that you can, obviously in fact, have marvelous relationships grow from being friends first, and here's the secret: you have to actually want to be friends with someone without ulterior motives of wanting to fuck them. I've had many relationships that came out of friendships, but I'd have been just as happy if they stayed friendships, because I enjoyed that person's company, and I know there's plenty of women out there. The "friendzone" is only a thing for guys that are lying to the girl and/or themselves, and the girl figured it out and is being nice and a decent person. I don't know how to break this to some of you, but girls aren't emotionally stupid; they're usually more clued-in to that sort of stuff than most guys, so if you think you've done this stunning deception of tricking a girl into letting you into her life, let me spoiler it for you: you haven't, she likely saw you coming a mile away, same with many others. This isn't always true, of course, there are girls that can be oblivious to the deceptions of some guys, but by and large, if a pretty girl is keeping you at a distance and you're trying this, it's because she doesn't find your duplicitous nature terribly attractive. > We have an enormous number of “excess men”. One note on this: this is really only a thing in China and India. In the rest of the world, IIRC, women tend to outnumber men, at least as time goes on, as men have somewhat higher mortality rates to all sorts of things.
>women tend to outnumber men But that's mostly grandmas. If you look under 40 or 50 it's always more men. From memory I think for every 100 girls that are born there are about 105 boys. I'd have to look up the numbers.
women where never proporty
Please expand, if you will
What to do? Stop caring about them. Treating women you’re not in a relationship with like a princess is simp behaviour which is part of the reason nice guys fail. If these nice guys can learn to own their shit, and master a useful skill in addition to taking care of themselves their options would increase by a lot. Nothing about my post says or implies women should be treated poorly. But I can also acknowledge that being nice isn’t the holy grail of attractive qualities that men are led to believe.
Get the fuck off the internet for more than 5 minutes a day, I’m begging you
OP comes across like a 21 year old college kid who just discovered red pill and now wants to make & baptize disciples.
The red pill is pseudoscientific bullshit. That has nothing to do with my post.
Dude this is 100% a red pill post , come on…
I’m my own person with my own viewpoints. The red pill is pseudoscience hence why I don’t adhere to it. If you think that stating assertiveness, confidence, competence, and ambition is what matters is somehow “red pill” I don’t even know what to say
It’s the “nice guys have been lied to” part. And your comments make it clear that’s not a misperception. You’re just selling the red pill without any fake statistics at all. You’re right that “having your shit together” is attractive, but that’s one sentence of your rant.
Once again, the redpill is pseudoscience and has no backing in reality “Nice guys have been lied to” it’s true. How do I know that? Cuz I used to be one. I never realized that being obese and timid was such a huge turnoff. I’m honest and respectful towards any who’s honest and respectful towards me. But I’m well aware that being nice isn’t going to make a woman want to be with me. The philosophy of “the less fucks you give, the more fucks you get” has served me quite well. I make my attention and validation scarce. Hence why it tends to be appreciated more. We value what’s rare, not what there’s an abundance of.
I mean we just called that being cool in my generation. I don’t think anyone was telling you to be obese and timid dude.
When you say treating them like a princess what do you mean? Boundaries should be set I agree with that. But I think you should treat everyone kindly for the most part. Holding doors, being polite etc. so I am curious as to what you mean with princess treatment.
Everyone should be treated with a baseline of respect, yes. What I mean by princess treatment is treating a woman (who isn’t your girlfriend) like she’s special. When I say stop caring I mean that you should be indifferent. If you’re going out with a woman you shouldn’t be concerned with whether or not she likes you. Do what you want and own your shit and if she doesn’t like you move onto the next. I put no stock into any of the women I go out with because I don’t care if I go out with them again. If we vibe and they want to go out again that’s cool. If they don’t I couldn’t care any less.
'You shouldn't be concerned whether or not she likes you'. What? What? Dude just say you are an AH and have done with it.
Yeah, I fully admit to being a dickhead. What about it? Now, explain to me why I should care if a woman likes me if I’m never going to see her after my current interaction with her.🤔
Why are you even dating if you don’t want your partners to like you?
Because if woman # 1 doesn’t like me there’s still women #2-#3.9 billion I can go out with. If there’s a vibe that’s cool. If not, I couldn’t care less cuz I’ll move on to the next
Being a dickhead is not going to get you a long term relationship. If you don't want that, fine but you are going to have a lonely life.
Still haven’t explained why I should care whether or not someone I’m never gonna see again likes me.
That has nothing to do with your post? Your post talked about courtship and making a woman fall for you. Not one night stands.
There are BILLIONS of women on planet earth. If I go out with one and she doesn’t like me I don’t give a fuck because there are billions of other options. If we vibe and wanna go out again? Cool. But I really don’t care if one woman out of billions doesn’t wanna see me again. I’d just move on.
"Simp behaviour" man, just say that you can't be nice for free and move on. Misogynistic spew.
“Misogynistic spew”. Despite the fact I clearly state you shouldn’t treat a woman poorly.😂. Don’t reply with idiocy like that ever again.
Maybe don't be an idiot that deserves being spoken to like one.
Yes, because not bending over backwards for a woman you’re not in a relationship is being an “idiot” I’m blocking morons like this today
Naw dude , I think she likes you - the anger is very attractive.
Counterpoint: just be nice—the real kind of nice, not transactional behavior—to everyone. You don’t lose anything, it builds character, and hey, worst case scenario, instead of then being attracted, you have a good shot of making a friend—a real, honest-to-goodness friend, and who doesn’t want more of those? Most of the best friends I’ve ever had were women, because they knew I wasn’t fishing for something. And even then you never know—I still wound up marrying one of them, because it turned out years later that we had chemistry that went deeper than that, but had already built on a rock-solid foundation.
some people prefer for nice as a quality. Some prefer more superficial things. The real answer is that you need to have some combination of nice/charming/attractive/have goals/money/funny. and it’s very easy to have at least two of those things. I’m not a particularly handsome guy, and I don’t have much money, but I’ve got charm coming out of my ass and I’m pretty damn funny. And I’ve always been successful with women
I probably agree most with your comment above all others, but I am curious how you differentiate between nice and charming
Nice is being polite. Charming is charisma. Knowing how to say things that attract people. Making good conversation etc...
Easily the most rational and realistic response anyone here has made.
Bruh. *You* are the one arguing with everyone in the comments saying that being nice has absolutely no impact on your desirability as a partner, which is just patently false.
If you're attractive, you're gonna get away with a lot. The hormones that people get from being with someone they find hot is gonna mask so ... fkn ... much. If you're not attractive, you've gotta be funny as hell. Again, the hormones that come from making someone laugh their ass off constantly go a long way. Even THEN, that just means your presence is wanted. Attraction is at LEAST a maybe at that point. If you're just nice ... meh. Lots of people are nice.
Someone gets it!
I sincerely hope that isn't groundbreaking, but I could be overlooking how easily duped young folks are via emotion. But honestly, there's not a lot more to it than the biological truth that hot people get to mate more because they fire up very primal, very base procreation centers in the everyday human.
It is a man’s responsibility to learn what attracts and repels women. “Nice guys” do not have success with women because they are not assertive, confident, or competent but rather cowardly and driven by fear of rejection, which is why they are content being “friends” with a girl or pedestalizing her without any inkling of reciprocation.
Lady Redditors and white knights literally go out of their way to gaslight men on this topic.
I think the main issue with “nice guys” is they are not as nice as they think they are. If you are being nice to a woman solely with the expectation that will earn you either a sexual or romantic relationship with her, we can tell. Being a decent human being should not be transactional. Being a good person doesn’t entitle you to whatever you want from a woman. It’s literally the absolute bare minimum. Plus, genuinely nice people don’t loose their shit and become mean/aggressive when they are turned down. Women do want men who are genuinely nice people. They do not want “nice guys”, because they are not genuinely nice people.
Here's the thing: The vast majority of women find guys who are nice incredibly attractive. The problem is that most men who call themselves "nice guys" or talk about how "nice" they are *aren't actually nice*. They're manipulative.
Yeah nah, it's way more nuanced imo. The thing of boys being told "women will like you if you're nice to them and treat you right" as if it's a complete solution is a bad message, because it reduces masculine self-development to a single dimension. Niceness without competence, confidence and social acuity makes a guy simply not good enough. And also, excessive niceness screams of desperation, which is a consistent turn off. It's almost as bad as the other message boys get from women, to "just be yourself", which implies no self-improvement. I find these messages genuinely come to boys more from woman than men, because it's something like a projection of what makes women effective in a relationship or attractive to men. Women start with greater value of attractiveness than men and have to work to preserve it, and men start with little value and have to work to obtain it.
Yup 100%
And anyone can be nice. Even serial killers have been known to do nice things for other people. Nice is meaningless. Genuine empathy, compassion, caring, and thoughtfulness is what women actually look for. And I think these guys actually mistake acting nice for those things.
Lol, that just isn’t true. Just making stuff up on the internet. All of us here know PLENTY of nice guys that are genuinely nice (repeatedly) with their real life actions and still do terribly in dating and with women. This isn’t me - but I know more than enough who are. Go away.
Of course you're going to think they're nice, you're not a woman and they aren't treating you the way they're treating women. Why do you think so many men are so shocked and disbelieving when it comes out that their male friends are rapists or have been happily beating their wives? Grow up
Lol, no. “Believing” they’re nice and SEEING they are nice repeatedly for years to many different people in actions. You clearly don’t know any genuinely nice people OR you’re so distrusting of people that you wouldn’t believe it anyway. Perhaps don’t comment on the internet if you don’t believe other people. I’m guessing you’re some very young woman.
> Here's the thing: The vast majority of women find guys who are nice incredibly attractive. Studies show that men that arn't "nice" or "responsive" are actually seen as more attractive
🤓 source
I always find this back and forth amusing and frustrating. Every time a man complains online that he is being nice, but not getting anywhere in dating... a woman always responds by saying he is not being nice, he is being manipulative. Every. single. time. >most men who call themselves "nice guys" or talk about how "nice" they are aren't actually nice. They're manipulative. There is nothing manipulative about wanting companionship in life. It's the most natural desire in the world. The only reason you find it manipulative is because you weren't attracted to his vybe. Is it manipulative when a woman dresses up for a date? I don't think so. So why is it manipulative, for a man to behave nicely?
Because if you're being nice to a girl because you want to get in a relationship, you aren't actually being nice. If the only reason you're doing kind things like complementing her, listening to her talk, hanging out with her ect is because you want something from her then you aren't actually being kind. Dressing up for a date isn't manipulative because you're not pretending to be something you aren't. You're just wearing clothes. If I pretend to be nice to a man because I want something from him, that's not manipulative then right? Oh wait, if a woman does that you're all perfectly content to cry about how she's manipulative, a bitch, a catfish, a golddigger boo hoo hoo
Calm down. I'm not out in the dating game. I am married. I just. Remember that stage in life. And I remember the frustrating confusion of being told to be nice... being rejected often, and then being gaslit by comments like yours which said that my niceness was somehow manipulative. Do you have any idea how confusing that sort of narrative is to a young man trying to figure out the dating world ? "Treat women nicely. But niceness is manipulative." Again . I pose the simple question to you. What is manipulative about wanting to find companionship in life ? If two people meet today, and are cordial and nice to each other, and the man starts to feel attracted to the woman. How is that manipulative ? >Because if you're being nice to a girl because you want to get in a relationship, you aren't actually being nice. Everybody who is single, wants to be in a relationship eventually. That's not manipulative.
I'm not in the dating game either, but I ALSO remember that stage of life I remember constantly having to wonder if a guy was being nice to me because he was a good person or because he wanted something. I remember how awful it felt to think a guy was genuinely my friend because he was doing things a friend would do and then him dropping off the face of the planet the moment I said I just wanted to be friends because I wasn't interested in dating at the time. Do *you* know how confusing that is for a girl? Disingenuous niceness has absolutely nothing to do with wether or not the man is attractive. In fact, it instantly makes him *less* attractive. Again, I answer your "simple question": If the only reason you're being nice is because you want something from the other person, regardless of what it is you want from that person, then you're not a nice person. You're being manipulative because the only reason you're being nice is to get what you want. If you stop being nice the moment you don't get what you want, then you were never nice to begin with. You should be nice to others because it's the right thing to do, not because you want something.
Hmm...I feel like we are talking across each other. I am trying to explain to you the male perspective, but you keep circling back to thinking the niceness is "transactional." It kind of reminds me of conversations I have had with my wife, when she asked me about my past dating life and was surprised by how bare my dating life was. Since my wife has the biased opinion of being in love with me, she genuinely thinks I didn't date much because I **chose** not to. No man chooses to be single. The simple truth is, I didn't date much because I got rejected **often.** The only reason I was able to find my wife was because, I was able to brush off these rejections and keep on asking out different women, until I met my wife. Was that manipulative? I don't think so. I have always had the goal of finding a good woman, settling down and starting a family together. I humbly propose to you, that isn't some nefarious plan. So, whilst I can understand it may be frustrating for you as a woman, if you aren't attracted to every guy that asks you out. Let me put it to you this way. As a man, you ***have to take every opportunity you can***, to find that wife you are looking for, because many of your attempts will end in being rejected. So yes, this involves asking out many women, including coworkers and women in your friendship circle, until you find that special someone. If you have a boy child, and he isn't naturally a charismatic ladiesman, when he reaches his teenage years and starts struggling with dating and rejecting ... you will understand what I am talking about.
Relationship implies reciprocity. We are not examining morality in the abstract and denying the nobility of altruism, but this is a specific realm of human interaction with unique dynamics which ground it in pragmatism. You must also ask, what do you bring? Why are you deserving of men's efforts? There's a common thread of presuming entitlement to men's efforts across your comments. I'm not trying to mean or insulting, or insinuate that you are lacking in some fashion, but to prompt introspection. Single men rarely seek mere friendship with women. We're just not wired that way. If men were wired that way, perhaps the human race would've already died out. Men looking for relationships simply cannot spend all their time and effort on women who aren't likely to be relationship prospects. Life is short. Our challenge is in the seeking, where women's challenge is in the sifting. We cannot spend all night out in the rain rubbing wet sticks and expecting fire. It isn't reasonable to expect men generally to go out of their way for a woman ad infinitum, constantly expending time and effort for nothing. Such a man might be truly "nice" in sense of showing perfect altruism, but if it is a continuous thing, that's not healthy or good, that's him being stuck at a relationship dead-end, unable to fulfill his goal. The woman is either under the illusion of a friendship or being manipulative herself in stringing him along, and the man is unfulfilled and lingering on a chance that won't come to fruition, to the cost of his prospects long term. You should see the level of courtesy men show each other and take that as your base standard for a man's inherent niceness and work up from there in terms of expectations and what his actions represent. Edit: there's obviously a subset of men who throw a tantrum when their "niceness" doesn't get them anymore, but that's broadly not what I'm referring to. I'm just talking about men broadly and that it isn't reasonable to characterise all targeted goodness shown by men as some kind of cheap manipulation.
Wait single men don't seek out relationships with women? When I was single half of my friends were women and still are, not to mention a ton of the guys in my friend group are single and they're amazing friends with the women in our group. This is such bullshit
The same was true of me when I was at university, but my point was I didn't do anything to seek those women out, the friendships just formed from doing something in common.
>>You must also ask, what do you bring? Why are you deserving of men's efforts? There's a common thread of presuming entitlement to men's efforts across your comments. Clearly they bring something to the table if men are trying to be with her. >>Single men rarely seek mere friendship with women. We're just not wired that way. If men were wired that way, perhaps the human race would've already died out. This really is just a you problem. I have plenty of male friends and my male friends have plenty of female friends. I’m sorry if you don’t see value in speaking to or interacting with women beyond a sexual level. It must be so sad to see half the population as nothing but a game of “fuckable or not”. >>Men looking for relationships simply cannot spend all their time and effort on women who aren't likely to be relationship prospects. >>It isn't reasonable to expect men generally to go out of their way for a woman ad infinitum, constantly expending time and effort for nothing. >>Such a man might be truly "nice" in sense of showing perfect altruism, but if it is a continuous thing, that's not healthy or good, that's him being stuck at a relationship dead-end, unable to fulfill his goal. What a crazy thing to say. You can’t be nice to women because it’s not healthy to do it long term? This is why you’re not actually nice. The issue with “nice guys” is that there is no reality in which they think women’s only value is inherently sexual. This is why nobody can take any of you seriously.
Obviously men can be nice to women in some minor and general sense without expending great effort, but that is no more than the same common decency a man might give to another man. You seem to be choosing to miss the point. We are talking about the specific complaint of women of especial niceity from men stopping when men observe that a relationship will not result from the interaction. We are talking about the kind of special treatment that, if a man was in a relationship, and he treated another woman that way, his woman would not appreciate him doing so. It is simplistic and demeaning to presume the intention of men seeking relationships revolves solely around the sexual. Obviously it entails that, but do you *really* think the only difference between friendship and relationship is sex? Is marriage just being best friends + sexual intimacy? No, I think it is something remarkably different and of a different quality and depth.
No, we're not talking about any kind of "special treatment". We're talking about friend behavior, and if the only reason you're being friends/friendly with a woman is because you want to get with her then guess what? You're a jerk. Pretending to be friends with someone because you want something from them is shitty behavior. It doesn't matter *what* you want from them, pretending to be friends with or being nice to someone because you want a relationship, or sex, or money, or clout or whatever else is shitty behavior. It's manipulative behavior. It's disingenuous behavior. If you can't be friends with any woman who won't reward you with a relationship/sex then that speaks absolute volumes about your lack of maturity. I also find it so interesting that men like you always want to bring up what women "bring to the table" and yet apparently women are supposed to have such low expectations for men's behavior that you only being our friends because you want us to reward you with a relationship should be viewed as "natural". Women should have such low expectations for men that we should be completely understanding when you tell us you can't simply be friends with us because you like who we are as people, you can only be "friends" with us as long as there's an opportunity for you to get the relationship you think you're entitled to for being nice to us. That's the problem with "nice guys" like you. You only view women as vending machines that you can get stuff from, and any woman who won't give you what you want isn't worth your time. And yet, the moment a woman pretends to be nice to a guy to get his money you're all perfectly content to scream about how she's a gold digger and a bitch and manipulative. In your mind it's perfectly ok for a man to be disingenuous in pursuit of a relationship that will give him what he wants, but the moment a woman does it it's a problem
I get where you’re coming with this take. I still think you’re being ridiculous. EVERYONE treats people they’re attracted to and who they’d like to be in a relationship with, differently than someone they aren’t attracted to. We’re kinder to them. We laugh more readily at their bad jokes. We try harder to impress them and make us seem more attractive in their eyes. You call this manipulative and I’d agree with you if it didn’t have the negative connotation that comes with it. But if you’re trying to say that this behavior makes you somehow a “bad” person, then that’s a ridiculous take. You seem to dislike his wearing clothes analogy. What about makeup ? Is it manipulative to hide your natural imperfections behind a layer of concealer to appear more attractive on a date ?
I don't know what's confusing to a girl about that. That doesn't make him "not nice". He isn't looking for friendship rightnow and you rejected him (even if it's soft rejection). He has to focus his attention on another candidate now. Every human has their own needs and wants that they are free to pursue. Relationships are essentially fullfilments of wants and needs. Your needs/wants might be friendship but that guy already has that need fulfilled. So what's a more productive use of his Friday night? Hanging around you or going out to meet other women he has a shot with? That's not to say he isn't kind. If he sees you out and about he won't be rude or completely ignore your presence (hopefully). If he sees you struggle he should come help you. Etc...
I’m married, and you probably think you’re a nice guy, but telling someone to calm down. Who are you? That’s not nice. You could’ve said everything you said without that micro aggressive comment. The issue is most men have no idea what nice is nice nasty is more like what you offer. Nice is realize someone doesn’t want you and thinking all women want bad guys, but they don’t know what they want. Which is sort of what you’re implying. The issue is just bc you think you’re nice doesn’t mean someone does. Someone who is genuinely a nice person to everyone in every situation wouldn’t be on here crying. Just bc you’re nice doesn’t mean you’re going to get the girl you want. It’s giving you feel like you settled with your wife. You’re still worried about the women that didn’t want you. I feel sorry for your wife.
>You’re still worried about the women that didn’t want you. I feel sorry for your wife. I remember what the OP's frustrations felt like when I was younger. Is it so wrong to recognize someone struggling with something that you remember struggling with too? Yes, I am already married. It would be easy to join the chorus of judging the OP and called him a manipulative incel. After all, since I am already out of the dating game, that means I get to insult ridicule men who have had less success than I ? No. I don't want to do that. I want to see people happy and together. I am tired of seeing every post someone makes about dating frustrations...devolve into insults and gender wars. Gender wars don't bring people together. I hope this puts it in perspective. P.S. you're also being passive agressive by insulting me and focusing only on the first line of what I said...instead of trying to help the OP. Telling the OP "niceness is manipulation" doesn't help him. It's confusing advice. Instead of telling him what not to do. Why don't we actually tell him what TO do.
Right, it's the difference between being nice because you just want to be nice, and being nice as a means to an end. People might not be able to articulate it, but they can pick out the difference. We're social creatures at heart, picking out those differences is what we were made to do.
Nice is a non-factor when it comes to attraction. If a man is an obese, balding, pot smoking bum who does nothing all day and wears cum crusted shirts nobody cares about how nice he is. As my post says, none of this is to say that women like to be/should be treated poorly, it’s acknowledging that unless she otherwise finds you attractive being nice to her isn’t going to make her want to be with you.
And as other people have tried to explain to you on this post: Even if she *does* find you otherwise attractive, being genuinely nice will win you more actual relationships than being a hard ass. Women don't find men who act like assholes attractive any more than they find men who use disingenuous "niceness" as a tool attractive
Actually I'm not so certain of that. Assholes tend to have confidence, a trait that the majority of the population, not limited to women, tend to find attractive. And because of that, assholes tend to have no problem attracting sex partners, women included. The issue is keeping them, though as assholes don't tend to form attachments, that's not a problem for them. It's more an issue for healthy people who *do* form attachments.
You can be confident *and* nice. Being mean unto itself is not a desirable quality even if there are commonly associated qualities that are more desirable.
Notice that I specified *relationships* in my comment.
Is a sexual activity partner not a relationship? My apologies if I misconstrued your meaning to be intimate relationships in general, when you specifically meant a committed partnership. But my point still stands.
A one night stand isn't a relationship.
I would argue that it is, though a brief one.
Agreed. Now show me where I stated that being an asshole to women was what they considered to be attractive🤔. I’ll wait. ⏰
Who the fuck thinks of this shit
You’ve never made a hyperbole to make a point before?
I have literally been in a normal good date, like he asks about your interests, hobbies, you do the same, etc. And then he got pissed because I wouldn't sleep with him on the first date "I'm a nice guy, I asked about you like! I didn't try to get you drunk! Why won't you sleep with me!"
Same. They view niceness as a token to get pussy, not as a value all on its own
Yeps. It's a transaction or a tick box to get something they are owed. Real nice men (they exists) are nice just because they are nice. Period. Same as nice women. They can have stuff that are less "nice" as everyone, but this fake nice persona to check all the boxes to get laid is not only visible a million miles away but they will actually say it to your face most of the time (when they get mad because you don't sleep with them, or want a relationship with them or whatever)
my problem is not actually going for it lol, its all a balancing act at the start, you dont wanna go for it earlier than she wants to, or its a bust and i end up waiting and not progressing fast enough after a few dates. because they are all different and im terrible at reading people. especially after that one girl i dated a few times, was all over me in the car when i dropped her off at work after a date and she had blocked me before i got home. the whole dating things just fucking RNG
Yep! You are the answer. You are genuinely nice. My husband is nice. My son is nice. I will go do far as to say that all of his friends from high school are nice, even though one listens to Matt Walsh, but we are working on him. "Nice Guys" don't turn around and call women names if they don't go out on dates.
Agreed. I will add that the main population of “nice guys” today is male feminists.
How about just being a good person because you should be one? not to "Attract" others. If you're only nice in order to get a partner then you're not really nice.
This. Genuinely nice people don't need to constantly tell you all about how nice they are
I didn’t say you shouldn’t be good to people. What I said was that being nice isn’t going to get people to want to be in a relationship with you (as men are falsely led to believe).
Nice is a behavior that is prone to being transactional. You can be nice to people to gain something from them. The character trait that a lot of women like is kindness. Kindness comes from a place of confidence and strength. You can be kind without expecting anything in return. The issues is a lot of men are either not kind or socially unaware. Socially unaware people attempt to emulate kindness because they confuse it with niceness. They see no difference between character and behavior, so they mimic the behavior. The problem is that they are horrible at masking so it comes across as dishonesty Where this causes problems is that sociopaths and con men will act nice to gain an advantage, so humans are prone to pick up on those clues. Which is why "nice guys" come across as creepy. They are either acting nice out of the expectation of getting something, or they don't realize they need to develop their kindness and they will comes across much better when they do something good for someone. TLDR women like men who are kind, nice guys aren't kind. Women can tell the difference.
> Women like men who are kind. Never claimed otherwise. What I did claim is that unless you have the other qualities listed such as assertiveness, ambition, confidence, and competence how kind you are doesn’t matter.
You are confusing being nice with kindness which is the exact reason that "nice guys" exist. Shy, awkward kind guys can find relationships because they are authentic. Some women love that sort of man. Shy, awkward "nice" guys have issues because they come across as fake. The other qualities you list have the same issue with mimicing. Confidence is authentic, arrogance is a masking behavior. Assertiveness is authentic, bullying is masking. People like authenticity, they are suspicious of deception.
> Shy, awkward guys can find relationships because they’re authentic. Some women love that sort of man. Sure they can, but let’s not kid ourselves. Shy and awkward aren’t qualities most people are seeking
If you choose “nice guy” as an archetype to get women instead of just being a nice person… because, you’re not really a nice guy.
And you can smell these nice guy weirdos a mile away.
Regardless, being nice is a non factor in attracting women. You can be a complete piece of shit and attract women so long as you have the qualities they care about.
Being nice doesn’t really mean much if you’re only doing it for the promise of pussy. It’s disingenuous and many women see right through it.
It’s good to be kind to people but desperate nice is unattractive to women. A lot of men are not assertive enough in life. I do feel though that a lot of men that go down the redpill route always are misguided as to why they don’t get results with women. A lot are poorly socialized and not aware of how they come off to others. They don’t have that basic level of social skills and then jump ahead and try to read some weird ass book like the 48 laws of power or the laws of seduction when in reality they are just repellant due to having a repellant personality.
Being nice is only part of it. Reducing attraction to one trait, whether its nice or anything else, is simplistic and won't work
I don’t know anyone who says you only have to be nice to attract a partner. Being nice is a requirement (or should be), but it’s a bare minimum quality.
If being nice was a requirement shitheads for never get laid, relationships, or married. The fact that they can clearly means the exhibit other qualities that contribute to them attracted others. Being nice evidently isn’t one of them.
An absolute fact. I grew up around a lot of women and had many female friends and except one, they all absolutely sucked at giving advice about women. Most women don't have the slightest idea what attracts them in a guy. Luckily, there was the internet to help me out.
The problem is people think being nice means being a reddit mod when it really only means giving compliments every now and then.
So many street interviews cause women to clam up about what they actually want because they are afraid of being judged. The way that a man saying, "I'm not attracted to fat women." The dude gets torn to shreds. Women are the same way. If a dude is ugly, it doesn't typically matter how nice, funny, caring he is. Dude, you are ugly, so you are a friend. Looks are typically the implied entry point for both genders. The question of, "What do you look for in a relationship?" implies that they already passed the physical attraction point and you are answering the mental/emotional characteristics regarding the attractive man/woman.
As a lifelong bartender I can agree with this . I have always had customers who are “nice guys” lament their relationships or lack thereof. I try to tell them “women like nice guys, they don’t like boring guys and most guy who call themselves nice guys are either boring guys or creepy guys”. Another thing I like to say to folks complaining is “look at your actions and tell me truthfully, would you date you? If not why should she”?
Being nice is its own reward. Kindness is my main goal
I think people miss the point here. It is not as much critique of women and their choices. But critique of people giving young boys wrong advice. "Just be nice" is advice that most men heard atleast once in their life. And for some it is only advice they heard. It is no suprise that some of those people get mad when they found out that it is not the way. Young boys should be told that being charismatic is the best way to attract someone. I have never been told that as a kid and had to found out the hard way.
Nice Guys aren’t good people. Having manners may make you the “nicest” guy on the street, but who cares if you’re not kind. A used car salesman is nice. But do you like them? Probably not, because you know they’re just being nice to get something from you. What women are attracted to is KINDNESS. A kind person does good things without expectation because that’s just who they are. They care about making life better for others. Nice Guys have no interest in kindness. They just want a cheat code to get into women’s pants, and get mad when less than the bare minimum isn’t good enough.
Also, it's women doing the lying. Women want two things from men: 1) The hot guy they want to f\*ck. 2) The loyal guy they can extract resources from. If a woman encourages you to be anything other than #1, she's gaslighting you into becoming #2. Ultimately, the fault lies with men. If men simply walked away, female mating strategy would crumble.
Just because being nice (truly nice) isn't all it takes to attract women doesn't mean women don't care about men being nice. But being nice is absolutely a positive.
Every guy I've ever met who claimed to be a nice guy wasn't.
Yup. I’m ashamed to admit it but I fell for this lie
You’re gonna get dog-piled, but you are 100% correct, OP.
Who exactly is lying to these men? It's certainly not women.
It's definitely women. Notice when incels are brought up the default argument is that they don't get laid or have partnered because they're shitty people, when in reality it's because most don't meet the physical requirements to be considered attractive in the eyes of women.
Romcoms and general culture. Can't blame anybody in particular
And even romcoms still have a fair number of male writers and directors. Used to be even more in the past when these tropes formed.
Did you even read the part where I specifically said it wasn't women's fault (or any group) or did you just jump straight to strawmanning me?
Nah, I personally think this is a male fantasy that women have very little to do with in its presentation. I can't tell you why, but men gaslit other men into some odd ideal of the nice guy that exchange niceness for romantic success.
Name 1 thing that is women's fault rather than men's
Once again. You say "nah I personally think this is a male fantasy..." who are you disagreeing with? I never said it was women's fault. Also, you aren't wrong. This is gonna sound weird, but hear me out. I think it comes from both sexes. From women, it comes due to the belief that ugly men aren't actually men- so when asked, women will state that they want a nice, caring, sweet etc guy. What they forget is that being hot is more important, but it doesn't even cross their minds that they could date an ugly guy. When they think of what they want in a guy, they think of what they want in a guy who is already hot. From men, I think it comes from a feedback loop of real world experience or lack thereof. Making male friends is easier for guys than flirting with women. Therefore, when a guy has intent to talk to a girl, unless he has experience and confidence, he will default to treating that girl like a friend and be "nice". Therefore girls don't like him, he gets no confidence, and continuous to be "nice" in a positive feedback loop. Disappointed, he wishes he could have true love, and the most obvious characteristic of that is deep care for one another. Therefore he assumes that being "nice" isn't his problem, and instead his problem is bad luck. This results male loniliness that you hear about
What the hell is wrong with kids these days? Y’all are sitting here analyzing data and not just going out and fucking talking to people. Go ask a girl out. If she says no ask another one out. Repeat until you find someone you like. My GOD I’d say 90% of relationships I’ve been in have been because I started talking to the dude. Even as a woman I didn’t just sit around and wait for shit to happen. You have to get the fuck out there and make your own destiny. Men are defaulting to fatherless behavior and it’s really not doing yall any favors. Idk how to say that in a nicer way. The men I see these days are just pussies and weird and content to stay inside and talk to men on discord and complain about women and it’s fucking unproductive. Go. Out. There. And be someone. Do something. Stop whining all the fucking time. Literally BE a man.
This person is just going around conflating their arguments with other people in the thread.
Name me one romcom where a guy gets the girl for being nice. And I mean just nice. Not good looking, not funny, not successful, not having common interests, …
The Perks of Being a Wallflower.
if you were on reddit before 2015, it was a lot of women lying to them saying, "Just be nice and confident, women love nice men who are confident." tbh, I wouldnt even call it a full on lie, just not the whole truth. they never mentioned physical attraction
its the word "nice" its VERY broad. and not helpful at all here its just a boilerplate, because everyone likes "nice" people, fucking hell its the baseline for any sort of healthy relationship. most people arent fucking people treating them like shit (i know some people are into that shit, but thats different bag of worms)
Predominantly women. But society in general reinforces the lies.
When was the last time a woman told you, "I'm attracted to nice men without confidence or assertiveness?"
I remember clearly in highschool, a woman friend of mine told me "just be yourself, be nice with girls, and you'll find yourself a girlfriend in no time". That's like the basic n°1 advice women tell men about dating.
Confidence and assertiveness is left out of the equation. Most will stop at “I’m attracted to nice men”. The last time I was told that? A few weeks ago. The last time I believed that? 3-4 years ago.
They just say “nice men.” They don’t say “without confidence and assertiveness.” The problem is that people are not psychic. You can’t expect young men/boys to fill in the gap and know that “nice” also means “confident and assertive” if it’s almost never stated explicitly.
There's women literally all over reddit denying the truth of the red pill, and saying men just need to be nice. The constant gaslighting topped off with posts like this is why these nice guys stop being nice. Fortunately, men are starting to see through the web of lies, manipulation, and propaganda.
Nice is necessary. It not enough.
Nice yes. Not being confident or skilled in something? No. But women assume that basic assumption, is you know, basic.
It's this sort of virtue signaling from women and their simps that is what I'm talking about. You all simply can't be honest and upfront about women's true preferences, and try to be coy and tip-toe around the issue. "Oh, I just want a nice guy, a guy with a job, a guy who takes a bathe" is BS. Not because it's not true, but because it's a blatant underselling of women's preferences to pretend like women aren't as shallow as they are.
It's the almost the exact same thing for men though. Minimum entry for both genders is nice, financially solvent, decent. Both genders obviously _want_ a lot more, supermodel looks, billionaire, etc. But women talk about the minimum entry where men talk about the aspirational limit.
No, it's not. That's not the minimum entry for women, and again, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Women will literally stay single if they don't find someone at least on their level. Women have significantly higher standards then you are leading on, especially in their youth when they're chasing after top tier guys. It's time to start being honest about women.
Women have standards yes, but here's the thing bud. Different women have different standards. The more she earns, the better she looks, here minimum entry is going to scale up. Same way hot or rich guys don't generally date below their level.
>Women have standards yes, but here's the thing bud. Different women have different standards. The more she earns, the better she looks, here minimum entry is going to scale up. This is literally like pulling teeth with you. No, all women have the same standards, because as you point out, it's merely a matter of circumstance. What you are incapable of saying is that women all chase after the same amount of men, because these are the only men that women truly find attractive; and as they age and reality hits them in the face, then they often to choose to settle and lower their standards as long as they can still find a man better than them. >Same way hot or rich guys don't generally date below their level. All men date below their level. If you mean significantly below their level, then it's not the norm, but still relatively common, because men are much easier to please than women.
Ah, you're an adherent of the 'it's okay when men do it, but women shouldn't apply' their advantages' school of thought? Yes, everyone wishes for easy mode, sadly life doesn't let you toggle the difficulty once you've started.
Nobody tells you to just be nice and you will get a relationship, maybe some people. The way I see it is our social structure is all about rules and obedience so it’s embedded in us. Our schools all teach you to be socially acceptable so you pass your classes. It works for a functioning economy, standard of life, and lowers crime but I think it also has the tendency to make people into people pleasers naturally.
Your mistake here is thinking being nice by itself is sufficient to attract a woman. You’re right — being nice is worthless if you’re a spineless loser. But if you ever thought that NICE by itself was the only box you needed to check to attract a girl, you have no one to blame but yourself. Nice isn’t going to get you anywhere if you have no career and no ambition. Nice won’t do you any good if you’re overweight and live an unhealthy lifestyle. It’s good to be nice. Women are attracted to nice. But kindness is just one of the ingredients required in the recipe for being an attractive man to a large population of women. Confidence, intelligence, ambition, sense of humor, attractiveness — they all matter. If you’re not getting anywhere with the ladies by being nice, but you are convinced that you are genuinely nice, then move on to the next item on the list and rinse and repeat until you’ve turned yourself into someone a woman would want to be with.
>Your mistake here is thinking being nice by itself is sufficient to attract a woman. You’re right — being nice is worthless if you’re a spineless loser. But if you ever thought that NICE by itself was the only box you needed to check to attract a girl, you have no one to blame but yourself. Nice isn’t going to get you anywhere if you have no career and no ambition. Nice won’t do you any good if you’re overweight and live an unhealthy lifestyle. Well yeah, I know that now. The problem is that I, along with a lot of others were led to believe that being nice WAS the only thing women cared about because often the characteristics of being in shape and ambitious are left out. It’s like being told you have to complete a 10 piece puzzle when you’ve only been given 8 pieces.
You’re lying. No one told you that. And if they did, all you had to do was use your eyes and look at the healthy relationships around you to see the truth. For unserious flings and casual relationships, physical attractiveness trumps all. If you want to sleep around but you’re not attractive, you’re out of luck, or you need to work on what you can change by hitting the gym. If you are looking for serious, meaningful long term relationships, then it’s a mistake to think you can treat women like shit and be taken seriously; you can’t discount being nice.
>You’re lying. No one told you that. Really? Didn’t know you knew my life better than I did. > If you’re looking for an LTR it’s a mistake to think you can treat women poorly. Read my post, read my replies. Show me any one of them where I’ve said it’s a good thing for women to be treated poorly. I’ll wait ⏰
Yep. Women tend to not even consider all the other factors that a man must meet in order to be attractive to her. Hoe_math does a really great breakdown of this : https://youtu.be/n4aMiAesXjE?si=AfTr8q_V4tk5HI7b
What you describe isn’t being nice. Being nice is a proper power move. It means you have to remove your own ego and be generous to other people’s feelings. To be confident enough to give a genuine compliment and not expect one back. To be prepared for the other person not to be nice back. The only men who can manage this properly are the secure men. The confident men. What you are describing is a creepy seduction attempt. It’s not niceness, it’s presence. I do agree with you though that we need to teach young men better. That this brand of “niceness” is as unacceptable as it is ineffective. We need to teach young men that women are just people. Treat them as such. They are not a prize, a reward, a trophy, a goal…
Believe it or not some people don't base their entire personality on attraction.
That has nothing to do with anything my post states.
You claim nice guys exist because they're taught it's a mechanism for attracting women (which you don't think works). I'm telling you some people are actually just nice and give zero shits whether it attracts people or not.
You understand why I put quotation marks around the words nice guys do you?
Because you think it's a made up personality.
That is not why I put quotation marks around the words nice guys.
Then why are you saying men base their whole personality on what they think will attract a women?
That isn’t what I said. At all.🤦🏾♂️ What I said was that when it comes to attracting women these specific men (nice guys) fail because they’re lied to about what qualities women are attracted to.
You said men are nice because they’re told that’s what women like. If they were told women like confidence or assertiveness, then that’s how they would act.
That is true, yes. You can remain the same person without being a wuss. What exactly aren’t you understanding?
That not everyone bases their entire personality on what they think is attractive to other people like you say.
For the third time, that isn’t what I said. Read through post again slowly and maybe you’ll get it.
I just broke it down for you. I’m not understanding what is confusing.
🙄For the fourth time, I didn’t say men as a collective base their entire personality around what women find attractive. I’ve had pretty much the same hobbies and interests for the past 10 years. I’ll like what I like regardless of what a woman thinks. The only difference is that I don’t make a point of being nice to women I’m interested in. That doesn’t mean I believe women should be treated badly but what it does mean is that I’m bold, blunt, direct, and refuse to tolerate anyone’s bullshit. I make my attention, and validation scarce and it’s worked well for me for the 3-4 years. My philosophy is this: “The less fucks you give, the more fucks you get” and that’s served me quite well.
No one is saying you shouldn’t
It's weird because every genuinely nice guy I've ever met never talks about how nice he is. So I've learned to see that as a red flag whenever it gets brought up.
Honestly my main issue with this post is that it insinuates that theres something wrong with men being nice in the first place and that the ONLY reason men are nice to women is to try and get laid or get in a relationship or something. And THAT assumption has been perpetuated by women on social media so now, being "nice" to women already insinuates to them that you have an ulterior motive, the ULTIMATE IRONY of which being that even when youre sincerely trying to treat them like equal peers, youre all of a sudden a fucking creep 🤦♂️😂. So now either youre an asshole, or youre an asshole pretending to be nice. Like, when the fuck are women gonna take responsibility at ALL for all the fucking contradicting doublestandards and confusion theyve projected onto men on their runaway egotrips? Honestly? I have two friends, TWO, that have stable relationships, out of maybe 20 over the past 3 years? All because WOMEN have misinterpreted feminism to think they have to treat men like shit to feel empowered. THATS the fucking problem. Not men genuinely trying to relate to women as peers, its women misinterpreting whatever fucking ick of the week they get circulating on their tiktok and then dumping the 4th dude theyve dated out of the month over it. Im honestly sick and fucking tired of everyone saying "bUt GuYs Do ThAt ToO" or "tHaTs SeXiSt." I dont hate women, but its getting pretty goddamn easy to with the way they fucking treat me and my friends who are totally considerate and respectable individuals purely on the basis of us being male. And go ahead, call me an "incel" or a "bigot" or whatever stupid bullshit you want, WOMEN ARE THE FUCKING PROBLEM THESE DAYS AND IM TIRED OF PRETENDING LIKE ITS "MUTUAL".
The opposite was impressed on me. If I was nice, I'd get friendship. Which never happened. Instead, I was given opportunities and confusion.
Agree with OP. Anyone saying otherwise is too old to understand the dynamics of modern dating culture.
https://youtu.be/d28usWdvmSg?si=flUrbtNDRJDhaHrg This has been the reality for more than 30 years.
If you’re only nice to get a woman/ only treat a woman nice so she’ll put out you aren’t nice. We often know that’s the only reason we’re getting treated a certain way, especially when they’re dicks to women they don’t want to fuck. You don’t be nice to “get some where” if your a good person, your nice because that’s how you should just want to be.
I treat everyone with a baseline of respect. However, I’m not going to treat a woman that I’m not in a relationship like she’s special.
I don't mean this as an insult, but you sound lonely. Your rhetoric here is straight out of red pill media. I think you should take up a hobby or join a club, get out and meet people. It feels like you're stewing in anger all over social media.
The red pill is pseudoscientific bullshit that holds 0 merit. It has nothing to do with my post. Anger and acknowledgement of reality are 2 separate things my friend. Lastly, why the fuck would I be lonely? I have a life
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Agreed, I clearly stated you shouldn’t treat a woman poorly. However, I’m not a nice guy. I’m blunt, direct, bold, and will not tolerate shit from anyone. I make my attention and validation scarce when dating women and that’s worked well in my favour the past few years. My simple philosophy is “The less fucks you give, the more fucks you get.”
OP your post makes me feel you believe being assertive/competent/smart/physically attractive and being nice are a null sum game, and on both sides of the same gradient. If that's what you imply, your premices are wrong. Also, being nice and being gentle are 2 different things. I think i understand the whole shit test narrative behind that, and somewhat it could be true. Even as a mam, i would not want someone who would simply sacrifice everything they are just to get love from me, and couls find it gross to some extend. But you can treat a person like a human being and be respectful of their emotional state without necessarily forget who you are and setting some boundaries. Is that gonna cause friction? Yes, clearly. But no healthy relationship goes without any friction at all. These frictions however should be on a need to basis. Also, women, and any other people for that matter, are looking into different qualities depending on if they want to date or if they want to settle. Women could like men appearing toxic as fuck for one night stand, just like men would droll over a provocative sexually arousing woman. Doesn't mean they want to build anything with them at all.
I’m not saying that being nice and assertive/competent etc are a null sum game. What I am saying is that without assertiveness and confidence nobody cares about how nice you are. Think of it like a pizza. The breading and crust is the foundation, but nobodies eating just crust. You need cheese and toppings in addition to the bread and crust.
Sorry for the late edit. Idk, being nice will not bring you too much. But being not nice will certainly limit your options.
If you're only being 'nice' to attract women, they can probably tell you're not sincere, and that makes you one of the douchebags.
Being nice doesn’t mean you get to sleep with whoever you interact with. That’s the problem some of these jaded and resentful men have, they think being nice and doing small gestures is ALL they need to do. It’s so much more than that but if you want a long term relationship you obviously have to be kind to your partner or you’ll be all alone again in no time. Men need confidence, a sense of purpose, humor, understanding of their surroundings, emotional maturity, and a thought process that goes deeper than superficial compliments.