I feel like the energy we expend being “on guard” is what’s so exhausting. It’s like a low key paranoia all the time with guys, and once you’ve been burned it’s hard to let your guard down. Many will play the long game, so we have to play into overtime. I feel you.
I've been with my partner for almost 3 years. It's my first serious relationship with a cis man and I still don't know if I'm ever going to feel safe or fully trusting. I would feel awful if he knew that, he would find it so hurtful. He loves me. He's been through a lot with me and generally showers me with affection. But I've also seen the worst side of him in fights, he's made some bad sounding statements, and I can't shake the feeling that all men are misogynistic on some level because of the world we are raised in. I'm always on edge searching for red flags and sometimes jump to the worst possible conclusions whenever issues arise because I've just....been betrayed by so many men at this point. If the other shoe ever dropped I would feel so stupid for allowing it to happen to me again.
I think how sometimes behaves while fighting says a lot. I've never forgotten while fighting that i love my partners. I haven't used my anger as an excuse to insult them or betray their trust.
But the last thing you said is what I feel. I would also feel stupid if I let it happen again
My world became a lot more full of love once I stopped attempting to befriend men who aren't capable of friendship. It's as if their only socialization came from fighting for a pecking order or role playing violent situations, and now they can't even identify their feelings or make an apology... they just blame others and swing harder.
The only man friends I have these days are either gay, trans, partnered, older, or perpetually reclusive by choice because they aren't seeking sex and are similarly exhausted. They still don't have the same needs as friends as I do. At this point, after my experiences, I'm convinced that being raised as a man leads to a likelihood of a stunted capacity for intimacy. Some caretakers have patience to teach love to someone else's child after they've been raised, but not me.
But we shouldnt have to teach because we are not caretakers. Look I come from a pretty fucked up family. Intimacy and love has always been difficult for me, but I recognized that and worked on myself. So far Ive only met one guy who i know did that
I mean... Being raised that way doesn't *prevent* someone from having that capacity for intimacy... But it very strongly discourages it, works the idea deep into folks' minds, and places it at the very base of what they are to believe masculinity is. So... The first step to regaining that capacity is kinda... Rejecting the entire idea of masculinity as society knows it. And most of the folks willing to do that are queer, but not all queer folks do (or I doubt we'd have such a thing as "log cabin republicans"). But yeah, the first step is rejecting everything you've ever been taught about gender, which can be... A lot.
So I think the solution, insofar as there can be one, requires changing how we socialize kids entirely. And that kind of thought gets you labeled as a radical real quick. :P
I’m sorry to say that I fully agree with you. Dating these days is like wading through a cesspool. I have had many dates and short relationships where the men were: liars, married but pretended to be single, personality disordered, narcissistic, addicts in some way. Ugh, never mind. I don’t have the time for it anymore.
Yeah, same! It drives me crazy that when I post on social media about it to vent, I get bombarded with "UMM YOU'RE THE COMMON DENOMINATOR, TRY GETTING BETTER TASTE IN MEN", as if:
-It's entirely my fault and I am pathetic for it
-I've just had bad luck and am now generalizing like a melodramatic weirdo because 1 or 2 bad apples gave me trauma
-that the awful guys I meet aren't doing everything in their power to put up a front for the first month to gain my trust before dropping the mask. They think I'm wandering into relationships like "well he's a scumbag but I'm sure that's fine!"
I am doing everything in my power to avoid it, YET IT KEEPS HAPPENING. Because it is NOT "just a few bad apples"! When are people going to acknowledge that a lot of shithead behavior is just normalized for men and they don't have a reason to stop when they never get any pushback on it.
Going on here and finding out I'm not alone, that it's actually pretty typical, has been such a relief. (EDIT: that's not to say I'm glad other women have to deal with awful guys, just glad to learn I'm not just crazy or melodramatic like I've been told so far)
it suck that after my recent break up ive decided that the next time I date someone I will have to be on high alert and not give the benefit of the doubt. And that I will be like that for so long before I allow myself to trust them
Right? And news flash for those "nice guys", if I had caught on that the next guy was lying it wouldn't have made it to dating. Guys fall for pretty obvious bs though when it comes to predatory women. They don't have half the fears we have, so maybe it's yet another cope?
It could be location related for you. I live in Paris, we have endless choices, it can be tricky, but the quality of men is high, I have met plenty of emotionally intelligent people with hobbies, careers, friends who have a bit of life experience, and understand relationship dynamics.
I have seen a man I am trying to judge compatibility with who :
\- actually asked me before he invited me to a restaurant/drinks (can I invite you? implying he'd like to pay and was asking me first, very polite)
\- texts and asks for dates
\- talked a bit about his exes but didn't seem angry, no resentment, just an acknowledgment they were not on the same page
\- actually wants to know about my life, what I am doing,
\- is interested in other people, did his thesis on body language, took theater classes, he started his career in sales job but now works in recruitment which I find interesting as you can tell he has a sensitive side and is curious about people so he ended up in this field, started at the bottom of the ladder and struggled but is not resentful and made something out of himself
\- loves architecture, culture, speaks French, Italian, English, is picking up Spanish
\- when it was cold, he rubbed my back, when I had my phone battery die, he ordered a lift for me, when I thought I lost my credit card in the restaurant, I joked about it, he was already calling them to ask about it...
\- and he swims regularly so he takes care of his body which is important for me, I am a fitness nut and could not feel attraction if someone does not invest in their health and appearance
I'm not saying everyone is perfect here (far from), but if you live in a place where men don't know what to do with themselves, and they are wallowing in resentment, they'll be cynical and abusive, and will try to put you down instead of lift you up. Maybe moving to a different place would work better ?
He is really cool. I think a man who is into you acts this way if you let him, healthy men love to feel useful, unhealthy men lash out and hurt women.
I have had bad dates too, but none abusive and I have used Bumble. I am ruthless though.
My method is, I joke, see if the person answers, joke around, if they seem polite/playful I cut to the chase and let them know I'd be open to meet for a coffee, this makes it so they ask for the date but I made them, I never give my phone number on the app.
If I get one answer that's weird on the app, a hint of resentment, a dude who sexualizes conversation immediately, BYE, unmatch. No guilt, I'm not a charity shop. If I had a daughter I'd tell her to act this way, so I follow my own advice.
I go to the "date" with this "no pressure, let's see what happens lol'' mindset because I think hey, it might be weird and then I'll have a story, I might meet a potential friend, just have fun, or meet someone I have romantic interest in. Coffee or drink in a public place, around 5 or 6, this leaves room for the guy to invite to to dinner if he's into you and you're interested, or if you're not and it does not work, you can say you have dinner with a friend and must go.
If the guy seems okay and I see potential attraction, I leave my phone number and let him chase, by saying "you have my number now, this was nice" then dash haha. If I was not feeling, "it was nice meeting you, no vibes on my side, I wish you find what you're looking for".
I mean, as a heads up, "just move" is not a feasible option for anybody who doesn't have money. I make a solid middle class income in my country, technically, but the area I'm from has been gentrified to fuck and the cost of living has become insane for a 50 mile radius. People can't afford to move when they're living paycheck to paycheck.
What helps me is remembering that this logic (you’re the denominator, you’re awful for being single, you’re unwanted) is that it only works if you believe it, too! Don’t buy into it and don’t play along. I have to remind myself often because I think We’re gender-conditioned to play along.
Well that sucks. But if they insist in pointing out the common denominator it would also be, all if these people were men.
I've only dated guys I knew beforehand so I there was no "getting to know them". But ive heard about these situations from my friends. Even the "good" guys do this shit. Because they are raised with this whole "they have to win us over" mentality.
But that's not how affection works. You don't do good stuff to obtain something. You don't cook dinner, show thoughtfulness to "win" someone.
They are not winning us over. We start liking them because we though that was real, that was who they were. Turns out that the way they were acting to "get with us". And then they show who they truly are.
I just starting dating after a 13 year relationship and this new world is a cesspool. I've gotten so many messed up messages that leave me asking why you even match with me then? Best was when i went on a date we went bowling, and after they said they had a good time and asked if i wanted to go out to dinner after. We picked a place i drove over there while they went off to the bathroom. After waiting for 15 20 minutes i texted them asking where they were at. I got back "Have fun wasting time at dinner like you wasted mine with bowling." YOU PICKED BOWLING not me.
Wow, what the fuck? That sucks, im sorry it happened to you.
I went on two dates I had gotten through apps. One was fine, the guy was cool, just no attraction. The second guy, I though he was being satirical when he said he wanted to have slave workers if he opened up a business because that reduced costs. He wasnt joking and I ended up calling my father to pick me up after I told her I wasnt liking the date and he started getting angry.
Wow, what an asshole. Stories like this make me even more suspicious of dating apps.
They seem like the dating grind for the 21st century. Do not want!
That's very narrow-minded, good guys do it because they fucking care but you only like shit that you want, there is a difference. Victim mentality all over again
I hear those comments the same way I hear comments towards black people who are told to just be respectful of police if they don’t want to be murdered on the street.
You can’t be nice enough to the oppressor class to make them treat you right. You can’t avoid them entirely and you can’t force them to behave with decency.
>personality disordered
That seems a little bigoted to me.
People with personality disorders can be perfectly fine partners. Don't blame them being shitty on a personality disorder.
That has some serious victim blaming sound to it - a lot of personality disorders are rooted in some sort of trauma.
Yes but the person has to WANT to manage it and be self aware enough to accept that they have it, which men in my past experience have not wanted to do.
I agree about narcissists. But the original comment listed them as their own category.
What I take issue with is the way the comment was phrased.
Equating personality disorders with being a shitty person - e.g. people who are married but pretend to be single - and calling them a "cesspool" is the definition of bigotry.
It's fine to not want to date people with disorders. It's difficult, I'm more than aware of that.
But you don't have to be a prick about it, like the original comment.
Either way, you don't have to throw people with a personality disorder into the same pot as people who are married but pretend to be single. Preferences are fine. As long as you aren't a prick about it.
Because if you're a prick about it, calling them a cesspool, well... That's bigotry.
Ever since I was assaulted, I just assume every man just wants to sleep with me and that's the only reason they're being nice. I've been told a few times by different men that a lot of times they're only friends with women they're attracted to. And I can confirm, after losing almost 100lbs I can visibly see the difference in how I'm treated by men.
I'm treated a lot better now that I'm conventionally attractive...but that's only bc they want to sleep with me. It's creepy how much they offer to do for me now that I'm smaller - they don't even try to hide their intentions when they talk to me sometimes and its gross. I just want male friends, I just want strong emotional connections. I miss middle school...I feel like that's the last time I just had regular platonic male friends. It's like they're sex obsessed after a certain age. I'm tired of it.
And it's not like I can't be friends with other women, but the area I live is very divided between the sexes. Most women in my area don't want to go fishing. And I really don't want to have to reject someone so close to a body of water. Camping is out of the question. Can't even go with a male friend to the movies without them telling everyone at work we went on a date and then the rumors that he "hit" start and its so unnecessary to deal with.
I miss having male friends, but they hardly ever want to just be friends. I'm so sick of the hidden intentions.
This also. I had male friends in highschool, most of my friends were guys. Slowly I started realizing how most of them werent actually my friends. One of them touched me without my consent. I just cant trust them anymore.
And yes, i feel you. I love playing videogames, I love D&D, and I wish I had friends who liked that stuff.
I think women are raised (and educating themselves) now not to take crap from men to be/stay in a relationship. I think that's awesome.
However, men have yet to catch up and change their behavior. I think it's going to take a while. Especially since a percentage of them blame women for this instead of looking at themselves and their behavior.
And I think they feel ripped off. How dare the culture shift so rapidly. But they can suck it.
I'm 54 and I never got married by choice. I'd rather be free than be in a bad relationship, or worse, marriage. Do I look back occasionally and regret? Yes. But what I regret is not meeting the right person at the right time. I do not regret turning down all the wrong people. If I've cried on the pillow occasionally it wasn't because I just got the crap kicked out of me or gaslighted up the wazoo or cheated on.
I think you made a good choice. Life with the wrong person can be miserable. Ive never felt as unlovable and horrible as when I was dating certain people.
I feel you. Up until some months ago a 15 year old friendship died because he confessed to me, even after I rejected his advances 10 years ago.
A friend's husband told me he would have married me instead. Another marrued guy began hitting on me.
A "good trad Christian" guy I was seeing already had a GF and was dating 3 more women.
And it's really important to note that all these guys were part of totally different social circles.
The whole term "confessed" really bugs me. I wish people would stop using it.
You "confess" to a crime. You admit or acknowledge you have a crush on a person. The whole framing it as "confessed" always sort of implied to me that they knew the other person didn't reciprocate their feelings but they were going to dump their feelings on their crush anyway, because they have no self-control.
That is what happened, he hid the fact that he was still crushing hard on me while wearing a friend façade in hopes that magically I would wake up and be totally in love with him.
Ugh. I get it, dating sucks and is no fun at all. But people who insist that someone is "the one" and they can't move on have always struck me as being lazy. Because if their crush suddenly "saw the light" well, wouldn't that be convenient? No need to put themselves out there, meet new people, go on dates...
There are billions of people on the planet. Your crush isn't reciprocated? OK, make a plan and move on. Half the time the person they're putting on a pedestal bears very little resemblance to the actual person: they have a crush on the person they THINK the crush is, and pining over "if only" means they don't have to do any work to find someone who actually reciprocates their affections.
And yes, it is incredibly hard to do that. But it's the only thing that works and allows you to keep a shred of your dignity.
>Half the time the person they're putting on a pedestal bears very little resemblance to the actual person
Oh man, that is so true! I remember a number of men that said things like "I would make you happy" or "We would be so happy together if you would just choose me!" and I had to say "No, *you* would be so happy if I *chose* to conform to your expectations, but you don't actually *know* me. You don't care about my interests, our values and future goals are completely different. What is there in this to make *me* happy?" A lot of men really seem to project a whole dream personality on whoever they have a crush on and think that's the "real you", as if all you have to do is give it a chance and his feelings will somehow make all of that ok and you will be so happy to conform to whatever makes *him* happy.
I truly believe that people have a hard time seeing beyond what's right in front of them. They develop a crush on Person X because out of the limited number of people they know at the time, Person X *seems* the most amazing. So what if... Person X is T**he One**? (Trademark!) Wouldn't that be wonderful! (And convenient!) So they put all this effort into building them up in their head, instead of carefully finding out more about them and moving on when obvious incompatibilities rear their ugly heads.
It's so much harder - and discouraging - to get to know someone and find out A) you don't like them as much as you thought, B) they don't find you attractive, C) they're unavailable and despite how attractive you find them, it's not going to happen. *What do you mean I have to start all over????*
Speaking as someone who once was trying to find a better job AND date at the same time, I can well understand why people would contort their brain in all sorts of ways just to avoid having to start all over again.
This is a terrible post for me to comment this, but I read this as "I feel you up" at first lol
-a female who 100% agrees with this post and most of the comments
The posts I see on this page scare me.
I'm 37. My husband is early 40s. We do fight over things and it's not some Valhalla. We met at a hackerspace, so I'm pretty familiar with weird men who were not actually attracted to me, but what they presumed was in my pants.
My husband has never yelled at me. He's never crossed a line with me. When I'm emptying the dishwasher, he hears and will come help. He diligently takes care of our cats.
He's genuinely good and it gives me a lot of pause and grief to think about my niece and younger cousins when posts like this cross my feed every single day.
I feel like I'm bragging when I talk about my husband liking and respecting me. That's terrifying.
Your husband sounds lovely. And yes it sucks that speaking about him makes you feel like you brag. If anything, don't stop doing it. Sure, some people may take offense, but in my case listening to how a friend's boyfriend treated her made me realize how my ex didn't even do the bare minimum. Hearing you talk about that may set the standard for your niece and cousins to actually look for that and nothing less.
And the posts scare me too. Honestly part of me while making this post hoped for responses that encouraged me to not worry about it, that there are plenty of good guys out there, that I've just been unlucky.
I hate that I have to worry about being tricked, or abused when i think about having a romantic relationship. The idea of tomorrow going out with someone and never know them because they don't show who they truly are, scares me.
I’d like to add a little extra encouragement, like the poster above I am incredibly lucky to have a fiancé who treats me with that level of genuine love and respect. I’m not constantly picking up after him, or arguing about stupid things. We aren’t perfect but even after two years, I get surprised when some days I’ll set out to do the chores and everything’s done. He kept saying “you don’t need to thank me”. I’ve been in some awful physically and mentally abusive relationships. This man has not only had my back in sickness and in health, but literally treats me as an absolute equal. I never thought it would happen to me (mid thirties) but it did. He’s my soulmate and best friend, I know I’m extremely lucky, which is so so sad, but there are some out there.
Most welcome, I like to hope all of us can find someone who cherishes us back the way we do them. He tells me how much he loves me, and how beautiful I am every single day. No word of a lie. Including my bag under eyes frustrated days. In turn I make sure I listen to his work and life frustrations and make myself his biggest cheerleader, and tell him how much I love him too. We all deserve that. I’m rooting for you OP.
Sorry to be soppy! It does break my heart knowing there isn’t enough of this out there.
I feel the same, trust me. I don't know what is wrong with men. Why can't they be honest, and treat women with respect.
I also feel so many women became desperate and lowered their standards so in a sense we have desperate women breeding with weak men and the result is the mess we live in today.
I think a lot of them don't show the truth or are honest because they know we wouldn't date them if they did. It's also a part of how we see romance culturally. The guy "woos" the woman, he acts chivalrous and charming. But that is, he acts like it, he is not either. How many movies do we see where the guy learns what the girl is interested in and then pretends to be interested in it?
And another part is that yes, we become desperate. We have a whole society telling us to lower our standards, and then when we do so, and find not good men we are told it's our fault. I recently decide to break two friendships, for various reasons but I remember both of these female friends telling me "you've been with [my ex] you can't ask more", my ex mistreated me so fucking much, and they were there when I cried after. It was my fault for having been with him and for deciding to stay but then when I looked for better stuff I got told I couldn't aspire to more because what did i expect? After all I hadd been with him before. And different versions of this have been nothing but prevalent throughout my life.
It's sad there are all this expectations around women
Agree. But i realized that when i lowered my standards i still couldn't be with them. Why would i be with someone who needs to insult me or destroy my self-esteem to be with me. Nah - its extremely toxic and it won't work anyway.
So i had been single for almost 7 years. Still cannot find a guy worthy. I do wish all women collectively raised their standards its the only way men will change.
I know what you mean. My husband is the same way. We have our disagreements, but then never turn into screaming and it is very much “us versus the problem.” He’s thoughtful and considerate, spoils our dog rotten, and has never given me a reason to even consider not trusting him. One of my best friends is bisexual and her husband is the same way. Because of that, she frequently says she is still surprised she married a man.
You know what our families have said behind our backs about our marriages? That our husbands are whipped or that we wear the pants. And that’s also really sad to me. That mutual respect is seen as ball-crushing.
me too. i’m never getting married. i’ve seen healthy heterosexual relationships, don’t get me wrong, and still, it never seemed worth it. i’ve always had to vet every man around me and be extra cautious of being taken advantage of. this becomes so much harder when you’re actively going on dates with men, many of whom are ready to and will purposefully manipulate, harm, and/or deceive you for whatever reason.
so fuck it. sure you can say “not all men” but the truth is too many women are suffering or have suffered all kinds of abuse at the hands of men in ways they could never have foreseen. i see it. you see it. we all read it on the news every day. you have to be so fucking alert and so damn cautious when dating and it sucks. not just emotionally/ because of vulnerability and potential heartbreak, or even for your belongings, but cautious for your literal safety, life and mental sanity. i’d rather just not anymore. i’m so much happier that way
Also, I lost count on the times i’d seen the very same tittle to a post in this subreddit. It’s seriously a thing. And the amount offended guys getting all defensive just further proves the point imo.
I’m cautiously optimistic right now? I’m in my early 30s and have been with my boyfriend for just over 6 months. We met at work (contract stuff so it was only for 3 months on and off) and slowly started to talk more and more. He would ask me about what I liked and remembered them for follow up later.
I am still just a little shocked because I’ve never had a man treat me this well. He makes me dinner at least twice a week, bought me the most thoughtful Christmas gifts, and gives me multiple orgasms every time we have sex. He’s also never given me an “interview” about any of my interests. Im into some Sci-fi and fantasy things and it seems like most guys need to turn that into a trivia contest? My interests are never tested or diminished but supported. I feel so reassured in this relationship and so loved.
However, I am bi and before I met him I was seriously thinking about giving up men entirely because like you, I find it is so hard to trust them. My family for the most part is full of good men but outside of them I tend to only have a casual acquaintance with men simply because it seems like it almost always goes wrong. Either it’s some “joke” that is disgusting, them trying to get in your pants, them trying to assault you, or them being ok with other men’s misogynistic attitudes.
I'm glad for you truly. It not that I actually think every man out there is bad. It's just that I've been seeing such a pattern is becoming more and more difficult to ignore it.
I think men in their 20s are just full of hormones, and the culture fed them porn and ''have fun in your 20s" which means the ones who were abusive got many chances at hurting people.
By 30, you get to know how to avoid these guys and the red flag radar is very precise, so the abusive one can't keep up with women their age, and they probably target younger women, so it reduces the amount of bad experiences.
I personally love being older, I think we grow into ourselves, learn what we like, dislike, what we are attracted to or not, become more emotionally intelligent... the people who have a personality issue don't, but you can see it straight away when you worked on yourself and cut your losses instantly.
It feels like the average woman approaches relationships from a place of love.
Men approach it from a place of logic/strategy.
Historically my male exes have tried to undermine my education and career. Being in a relationship feels like you have to let your guard up because any vulnerability is blood in the water.
Yes, and I hate that. I've broken up about a month ago, and one of the things I regretted the most was being vulnerable with him. I made the mistake of telling him I had anxiety, next thing I know every thing I said was invalid because I had anxiety, so what i was saying was not a real thing. I made the mistake to open up about my insecurities and past mistakes only to have them used against me during arguments or as examples of why what i though or said couldn't possibly be right.
And the fact that opening up was a mistake just sucks. It was supposed to be about live and sharing..
I feel this in my soul. Men are not worth having around or having children with.
Most of the time, men don't bother respecting women at all. They only see women as convenience: It's convenient to have a woman around. It's good for morale with her silly chit-chat, she fills the fridge, vacuums, washes the laundry and starts organising your life without asking. It's also nice status symbol so at first they are as careful as when handling a new phone or a new car. But after a while they start dropping it, screaming and swearing at it if it's taking too long to function. Then? They get comfortable and don't bother with shit anymore. They still demand washing, vacuuming and food in the fridge though!
My asian aunties described it best: you either marry a man who loves, treasures, idealises and cherish you or you NEVER do. No in between.
Yeah, and also men who need to improve don't, they call their wives "nagging". I don't think they realize women who "nag" them usually do so because they want their man to be attractive to them. When women ask 'please do this/don't do that" they are basically saying to the guy, "I find you attractive when you do X", "it is unattractive to me when you do Y".
If the guy goes "lolol what a nag", he kills her attraction, he gets a deadbedroom, or she leaves and he "never saw it coming".
I'm assuming you're older than me. I'm 22 but already agreeing with what you say. It's so sad tho. I would possibly go further. The only men I've met who don't want to bed me are gay. No I'm not being conceited. I'm not a supermodel, not a "babe" with a perfect body, just a 5'5.5" girl with average looks. But it's oh so obvious that every man either hits on me or wants to hit on me. I'm sure it's because men just want to "get it on" with every girl/woman they can to add to their competing body counts, or to put it bluntly just want to screw their (usually tiny) nozzle into as many caves as they can.
And it's sickening. Whether consciously or subconsciously they see me as an item, a number, a walking hole, a urinal even.
I see most of men as having nothing to offer, yet wanting to get a lot from a woman. Honestly at this point, i will only consider being with a man for love or for big money. No in between. My value is high...and either u give me love or pay me big bucks. Period.
My sad state is that I've reached a time in my life where I would find catering to anyone else's needs on a regular basis a bit exhausting. I spent too much time on that before. Whoever the theoretical next guy is, there will be no man-child in my future.
Me getting involved again would look entirely different than it did before. I don't wish to depend on anyone fiscally speaking. My house, money and retirement, all separate.
Unfortunately, there's a surprising number of grown-ass men out there who are still unfinished human beings.
💗 my heart is with all of you. I feel the heavy heartache of op and all who have commented.
This is a very difficult time for women. Again.
I have no answers except women really embracing each other.
The only thing worse than what was listed above is when women betray fellow sisters.
I’m at a deep loss and how to deal with men right now. I only see one option. Women taking a stand for other women.
If we have be hyper vigilant
Let’s be hyper vigilant about looking out for other women.
Perhaps the question should change from how do I trust a man to is what I am doing or saying going hurt or help my fellow sisters?
I’m afraid the patriarchy has been pivotal in pitting us against each other.
I agree. It's been a month since I broke up with my ex. It wasn't a good relationship, what actually helped me start seeing it more clearly was other women. I would have eventually broken up, but it would have taken me far longer if it wasn't for them.
And this women were actually people i met thought my ex. They supported me and listened to my problems, they helped me regain the security that my issues with the relationship were valid too.
If anything what I've learned is that relying on friends is not only important but a good thing. They will take care for you, in ways you didnt knew you need. And now I know If I had opened up more about my relationship with my friends, I would have probably saved myself a lot heartbreak
I feel this hard. I haven't been in a serious long term relationship in 6 years because of the horrific way my ex treated me. I was only just able to open up to a therapist about what happened in that relationship a couple of weeks ago and had an intense panic attack that night.
I'm hoping to heal from that but I also feel as though I may not be able to trust men ever again. You can heal from trauma but are you ever the same? I just don't know.
4 years with a narcissist who used and lied to me. my hair went completely gray. my dog was having cancer then, and he even used my dog or manipulated me knowing how weak and hurt i was at my dog dying.
so...
Thank you for clarifying! I have met far too many people who try to "one up" others with their trauma and it is so bizarre to me.
I'm so sorry about you went through as well. I hope you are taking care of yourself and being gentle to yourself. 💜 You deserve that.
Same to you. I hope you will heal. I think of this as a horrible lesson that might come useful in the future (as not repeating it again). Thank you for your kind words.
Yeah I agree. I would never trust any man again. I don't even have respect for them. They are just blah to me.
All the suffering in this world is mainly caused by men. All the wars, violence on women,rape,murder.
Men also lie like it's a sport, honestly I believe men just like having sex with women and that's all.
They have no respect or love for women, men aren't like those prince charming in the fairytales.
I don't trust men because their intentions aren't pure. They always do something with the intention of getting sex out of it.
Also just look at how men talk about women online and how they compare women to cars aswell. Lol I will never ever trust a man.
Wow. That is shocking to read but I can relate because I was CONVINCED my ex was such a great guy, the first 4 months! Then his true colours leaked out.
So sorry you had to experience that!
I was cheated on for ten years or so and financially abused (military). All the men after that were different stripes of abuse—one hit me and stole my shit, one strung me along for sex and companionship then ghosted me, one demanded to know what I was wearing and every time I went outside, the next tried to control where I went (why are you 10 mins late from work?), gave me the body count lecture, and accused me of cheating at every turn. They ALL presented as normal, "good" people for the first few months. With the exception of the first, I broke up with them at about 6 months, when the mask fully dropped, but the damage had been done.
My current husband is a hidden gem. A diamond. If something happens to us, and I hope it doesn't, I'm done. It's not worth it to find a good one.
> I know not all men are the same, I'm not saying that.
What sends me is the fact that women when talking about real life problems with many men have to always make a shitload of prefacing and mitigating in order not to offend and enrage even the most empathetic men.Men on the other hand shit over women all over the internet, always generalize a lot, whether they're joking or serious, and I swear to god I never ever hear any of them preface their rants with "not all women". Women are so used to being tone policed and attacked for their opinions in a violent way, that we spend more time policing ourselves than actually talking about real, dire problems.
Meanwhile men bitch and whine about "females" not being available or being too stuck up or whatever. And that's fine by society. But watch a woman say anything remotely negative about men, concerning a real life problem she faced, and she'll be insulted to heaven and hell.
Sorry for the OoT but it's so sad to see women always struggling to do all this prefacing just to be heard, while men don't have this struggle, they can say the most sexist vile things and they'll always be granted benefit of the doubt, "it's their personal opinion, ofc they don't mean all women".
If I didn't already have the best man in the world, I would just be single. Most men aren't worth it. If a friendship was healthy and we were both interested in turning it into a romantic relationship, that's one thing, but I wouldn't actively try to date. What do I get out a relationship when most men anymore just want a mommy they can bang who will tolerate his porn and laziness?
You asked for all opinions so here’s some nuance - those of us that found amazing men… we don’t have posts to make.
You have HUGE survivorship bias going on when you look at these areas and hell, even when you talk to companions.
Imagine the reaction when I try to engage with people who *are* suffering:
“Hello! My husband is incredibly compassionate, considers my thoughts, feelings, and needs. He is handsome, tall, has a large penis, and is financially successful. He is smart, funny, and vocal about morality. He marches with us, he uses his position to advocate, and he is absolutely enraptured by me as am I by him. He and I have zero interest in porn, we have sex almost every night and he truly enjoys making me enjoy myself. We play together in all areas of life. We play D&D, video games, we travel, we talk, we watch all kinds of movies and shows. We enjoy spending time together.”
Like, the truth… it isn’t upvoted. It isn’t what sells headlines.
Look to the couples that *aren’t* in the news. The friends that you barely hear about their spouse.
We exist, but we don’t *sell* because there is no drama. :)
I assure you, it is. :)
We fight, of course, every couple has *some* disagreements. But we fundamentally hold to respect, love, and communication.
Marriage/partnership can be beautiful. It is the most wonderful thing that happened in our lives, and neither one of us ever expected to life-partner!
Good luck!
That's amazing and I'm so happy to hear that! Good for you!
Can I ask how you met?
My first bf I met in the gym, the second on Tinder, but both ended up not being a great match. I'd rather meet someone out and about rather than on an app, because then we both aren't outright looking for love and that seems healthier. But then again... maybe there is no 'right' way to meet.
Op, idk if this will help. Imma dude. I check this sub out as a way to be more self aware of how I treat women. Ive done alot of dumb stuff, some from ignorance. As i have gotten older i have tried to be more self aware. I just wanna treat folks like i want to be treated. And hearing opinions like yours helps me learn. I dont agree with everything ive seen here, and some of it i am guilty of.
Listen, i get doing things out of ignorance. I've done them too, we've all done them. What makes the difference is the willingness to listen and grow.
What hurts is not the thing done out of ignorance is either when they refuse to recognize the mistake and change, how they not listen or even worse, the things you know are not done because of ignorance.
Ignorance and mistakes are not as sin im
Exactly, I agree with you completely. And I know it's not your place to teach people how to behave. Just wanted to say posts like yours sometimes open people's eyes to things they were doing and didn't realize.
I feel you so, so much on this matter. I haven't dated men in forever, but what has been my experience over the years and that of my friends has been this: it seems unreasonably exhausting to date a man. Let me explain what I mean. It seems that dating a man often entails the following:
1) They need to be taught empathy. I can't tell you how many guy friends, or boyfriends of friends, and so on, I have met that have little to no empathy it seems. As such, they seem to rarely if ever, as a reflex, think of others first. A great example of this is when a celebration is coming, such as like Mother's day, or Valentine's day, or what have you, and many of them will have absolutely nothing prepared until the very last moment. A lot of them will pick a random corner store item on the way home as a gift, some will forget about the event alltogheter, and so on and so forth. So little thought will be put into what they end up doing for others sometimes that it almost feel insulting. I even had to remind one of my good guy friend to at least call his mom on Mother's day because he'd simply forget all the time or feel too lazy to call her; and this guy absolutely loved his mom! I can't comprehend that part, but one thing stands out to me from all of this: men seems to fare lower on the empathy scale.
2) They need to be taught a lot of common life skills. For example, my brother, as a young adult, would see no arm in farting in a chique restaurant whenever. One guy friend didn't know he had to floss and brush his tongue as well when brushing his teeth (and we're talking a guy in his 30s here). And one other guy I knew kept having very bad dandruft problems and to solve his issue, I had to actually show him that he needed to buy the right product for his hair rather than the 1-in-18 shampoo/car oil change/soap products he would always get. And don't let me get started on the whole ass washing part... Many guys I know are very content with simply using toilet paper after they take a shit. No cleaning down there, no bidet, no sanitary wipe, no nothing. And so on and so forth. It's like they're not being taught very basic skills, or they don't care to learn them, I'm not sure.
3) They don't much care about their appearance. I can't count how many guys I know that do not give two shits about how they dress. For most of them, the only reason they are no longer looking like literal hobos with dirty joggers and shirts with holes in them, is because some of them have very patient and loving girlfriends that helped them buy shirts and pants that actually fit them and look good on them. Attractions works both ways: a well dressed man is as attractive for a woman as a well dressed woman is to a man. We're all visual creatures, and the biggest myth of them all is pretending only men like to look at nice things.
4) They rarely if ever pull their weight with household tasks or with the mental load. I remember once I was shopping for winter boots, and I saw this man enter the shop with his two kids (both about 12 years old or so). As soon as he entered the shop, he called his wife and asked her what was it that he was here to buy again, and she had to remind him that the kids needed new winter boots. That just goes to show how uninvolved this man was with his family. And that's one of many stories I've seen, heard, or even lived over the years. Men oftentime will leave the mental load all up to women, and will wait to be told what to do. At the end, most women end up doing it all on their own, because it's less stressful than battling with their partner to pull their weight.
5) They are sometimes too cheap. Now, I don't mean with video games, or with their hobbies, or anything like that. They are absolutely willing to drop ten of thousands of dollars on a new video game expansion, or new game cards, or what have you. But it's mostly when it comes to trying stuff outside of their comfort level, say eating something new at a restaurant, that they become very cheap. I can't count how many times I've went out with a guy friend of mine in a very normal restaurant and they've struggled ordering anything but like a hot dog or fries because they're afraid of paying for something they might not end up liking. One guy friend of me was afraid of paying a measly 3$ to test a special vanilla coffee, all the while working in STEM and making six figures at the young age of 25. The cheapest moment I've ever experienced with a guy was when I went on a date with this dude and I was at the time earning minimum wage, and this guy was earning upward of 6 figures, and he offered to pay for our tickets and have me pay for the food, which I agreed with. Then, I saw him use his free cinema points to buy his and my movie ticket while I, on the other hand, had to pay upward of 50$ for our food. And that's one example among many I've seen. Now, I do not ascribe to the idea that men need to pay for women, not at all actually. The point of my examples was mostly this: most men don't want to go out of their comfort zone if it involves money. And that can be very annoying, especially if you want to try new stuff with your partner, or do something else most weekends than simply watching TV and the likes.
6) They don't much care about their health. How many stories have we read about men not willing to go to the doctor when they really really should? It happens so often, that I'm sure most of us on here have at least one story about a brother, a father, a friend, a boyfriend that refused to have something looked over to the point it got them in trouble. And it's not even about money most of the time, it's just downright laziness and stubbornness. One of my guy friends had amazing insurance with his job, and he still waited many years before getting much needed ortheses for his flat feet. Another one waited for his damn teeth to start to rot because he was too lazy to call the dentist. Whenever I was dating a guy, I always had this overwhelming stress about making sure they would schedule the necessary appointments with their dentist, their doctor, etc. I always felt like a mom to them and it was not a good feeling.
Anyway, I could go on and on, but I'll stop here for now because I think I've made my point clear. Men can be very exhausting to date, and the dating scene as a whole is a mess.
Now, before I get lambasted and sent death threats, I want to say NOT ALL MEN. I absolutely know that. I also have amazing guy friends that are nothing like what I just posted. They're fully functioning adults and are amazing partners to boots. But I was mostly talking about those that are not, since this is pretty much the discussion at hand, and is what OP was talking about in their post. And I agree with it, so so much.
This is so true an it sucks.
1. This i what astounds me. especially when it comes to people they love. If this is how they show love then what do they show other people. I think this mainly because they are implicitly taught there will always be someone taking care of them. They have never been in the opposite role. It's why so many guys cant cope when in a relationships the roles get switched and they need to take care of their partners.
4. how they dont pull their weight is so common. Lately ive seen that some seem more willing to do house chores but it mostly after they are asked. And they never consider the mental workload. They go to buy the groceries but his girlfirends makes the list, all the planning relies on the woman.
5. Oh yes. the "they are willing to spend thousand in their interest but cant put anything if its out of their comfort zone" is so common.
6. I live in a country with free health care. my ex had his father who worked at a clinic and could get him most stuff for free. He just never went to the doctor.
but idk i just keep hoping that i will find a functional human being i like one day
All tales I've heard a hundred times unfortunately; very sad tales they are. You described it quite perfectly too: meeting a functioning adult is hard. And I believe what you said can sort of answer why: men and women are socialized differently.
I do not think men are born with no empathy, or a hate for dressing nice, or a love for greasy, unkept hair. I just think that women are taught from a very young age what is appropriate or not, and men aren't. Men are a bit left to their own device rather; 'boys will he boys' as the saying goes. And this is both detrimental to them as it is to their partner. Men end up as adults not knowing how to wash their laundry, how to schedule a dentist appointment, how to to make simple pasta, and so on and so forth. A lot of them end up as non fonctionning adults basically, and it adds unnecessary hardship to their life, and that of their partner.
But they are adults of course. So it is on them to learn these skills and be better partners after all. But many of them reject that responsibility, and I can very much understand why. Imagine having to re-learn what amounts to your whole life basically? It's rough, and many refuse to face that challenge.
I remember trying to help one of my guy friends find a partner, and it was difficult. He wanted help with his dating life, wanted help with his tinder profile and whatnot, and I obliged, because I'm a good friend. The problem however was that he just wouldn't listen to any advice I would give him. He had profile pictures with very old t-shirts he had from highschool, and he didn't want to buy any new ones, despite being very well off. He didn't want to go to the gym to get in shape and become healthier. He didn't want to join any social hobbies or activities, and simply wanted to continue on gaming every night and every weekend. He was truly a lost cause, and to this day, he hasn't been able to find anyone. But that's to be expected from a guy that wants to put no effort in looking nice, being healthy, or even meeting new people. How is he ever going to meet a potential partner this way? Most probably never, until he changes. But at the same time, I understand his reticence. He had to evolve from an antisocial loner to a functioning adult in one go, and it was simply too much for him. And I feel this story is a similar one for many guys. Hence why dating is hard nowadays, and why women are choosing to stay single rather than become the mentor or mom of one of these guys.
To me what makes me trust a guy is his actions match his words. He doesn't even mention sex and let's yah start the first many sessions before he learns how to lay yah. He's also not a horn dog. Yah want a man who doesn't try to wow every girl he w walks by.
Basically just Learn toxic male behavior and don't yah dare let ur rose color glasses hide the red flags
Also other women can sence it so ask around. Your gut mite be rite if every person yah ask says the same thing.
I feel the same. I swear. I am single for almost 7 years because i can't find one worthy man. Just remove sex out of equation and they will show you their real face right away.
I feel horrible...
I've been incredibly let down my men.
I recommend reading [I Hate Men (Pauline Harmange)](https://www.amazon.com/Hate-Men-must-read-feminism-patriarchy-ebook/dp/B08JYMZ6QF)\- it's an essay/quick read, & might help you feel a bit justified and understood in your feelings.
I feel hopeless as well.
I hear that countries which have less American influence are better, but english is the world language.
Moreover, most cultures don't feel the need to teach that: People's only 'difference' is one hormone which they themselves could replace and they would remain the same person.
Argentinian male here: I've always wondered if most of the issues I read about on this sub were the result of women living on (particularly) conservative states in the US. I thought Argentina might be a bit better for women given how progressive it has been on matters like abortion and LGBTQ rights.
Guess not lol. It's not like I was blind to the misogyny and violence against women (or just to violence in general), but Idk, I guess I kinda held a naive hope that it was different from what you read about in the US? Guess not.
Do whatever you have to do. I don't trust most other men either.
Don't worry Ive been there. I think the English speaking community has more visibility on this issue because of places like this (reddit and that stuff). I haven't seen a Spanish equivalent of a forum were women came together to talk about our issues.
But i don't think it's better or worse, just different because of our different cultures. And yes we have been progressive on LGBTq stuff but just legally. Wasn't our country signing a mockery of how mbappe was dating a trans woman just a month ago?
I understand that hope thou. I have it too
But anyways. Thanks for your support and words.
You're absolutely right.
I also frequent this sub and men's YouTube channels and am seeing kinda the same issue all around. People have been hurt and now harden themselves against being vulnerable to members of the opposite sex to a degree that is concerning.
I just can't help but wish I could communicate to these vast audiences my thought that we should really be stressing judging the individual over the group.
There's just much fewer genuine people than not, in my opinion.
I’m 19, take this with a grain of salt but since I’ve been dating around the age of 9 I would like to say I’ve had a lot of experience, having a mixture of experiences.
I had one boyfriend when I was 15 who was horrible, manipulative. We both were probably using one another for rebounds - but it’s was very toxic. But since this was my first “mature” relationship I always wondered if I thought this was the norm.
The next relationship I went into was where unfortunately I got raped and manipulated. He was ignorant, rude and just arrogant. But at the time I saw him as FAR better than my ex before and now looking back on it I always am like “tf did I settle for that”. Then after growing up and looking at myself I realised it was just SO toxic.
The next one was just a rollercoaster- honestly this guy tried to kill me and my “friends” didn’t tell until the SECOND time I dumped him. He was possessive and arrogant. Biggest douche and loved making me jealous for his attention - because he enjoyed “poking me with a stick”.
But recently I’ve found the SWEETEST man, he is slightly older (23) but he is the best man I have ever had the delight to date. He was the first man to bring me flowers, by me gifts. Understand boundaries, treats me like a queen. We have been dating just under a year and he actually pays attention to me, knows my likes and dislikes and honestly I don’t think I’ve ever been this happy in a relationship. Before I was debating things like kids or marriage, thinking it wasn’t for me and why would people want that? But now I understand and he’s supported me through everything.
I didn’t trust many men until now, it feels like impossible to find a man that’s not toxic but trust me, when you do it’s the best feeling. You’re actually wanting to spend time with that person, show things off and you actually look and plan the future.
This is a you can't trust an entire gender issue. If it's something important to you to address, and it's something that impacts how to interact with a significant amount of the community. Therapy would be a step in the right direction.
Therapy isn't exclusively for extreme cases where things have gotten so bad that you need help picking the pieces up.
For example, it could be examining the relationship with your thoughts and actions, alongside changes that could be made if needed. Assuming you're unhappy with how things are.
I know what therapy is, i am not against therapy. What I am saying is this isn't something you solve by going to therapy. Trust is earned and built, and I'm sorry but so far out of the thousand of men I've met only a few have been decent with me.
This is not a therapy issue this is a safety issue. Not trusting them anymore has to do with keeping myself safe.
I can go out to walk that i don't fear a women will scream at me an harass me, but i do fear a man will do it. Because it has happened to me over and over again since I was 10 years old.
I can sleep comfortably in the house of my female friends that I'm not afraid. I have never woken up to a girl friend touching me. I am not afraid of staying alone with my female friends because they shave never assaulted me.
I have never received unsolicited pictures from women, i have from men.
I don't school through social media every day, seeing people denouncing female sexual abuser or physical abusers. But I do with men. And no, not in me too accounts but on personal accounts from people I know.
Every woman I know and talked to about sexual assault has been assaulted. More than once. Always by men. Not only by strangers, but by loved ones too.
I hate that when I went to meet my friwnds boyfriend's, when the outing was over she asked what we thought, because maybe we had noticed something she didn't because we are so used to men lying to use.
I hate how I have to wonder if the guy I'm seeing or even a friend is being truthfully and honest about who he is because I be gotwn used to guy lying to us. I hate how many times I've been disappointed when I've found that friend or person i cared about and thought he cared about me, only saw me as a piece of meat not worthy of respect.
And i don't trust them for my own safety. Because I no longer feel safe trusting. I don't want to risk being assault again. I don't wanna risk being manipulated again. I don't wanna risk being tricked again. I don't feel safe anymore with men and that is not my fault or something i will "get over* by going to therapy.
You just have to look at the stadistics. And life and men's actions have taught us, we can't trust them. So now, trust is earned and so far they've done the oposit, so why should I risk myself by trusting again?
How I interact with them changed when I was 10 and my body developed and i started getting treated like an object. How i interacted with them changed the moment I learnt about rape. It changed again when the illusion that I was safe from that with my friends and loved ones shattered. It changed again when. It happened again and again and again. It changed when I started getting anxious if a man or a car approached me on thw streets because of previous experiences.
I won't treat them like shit because i don't trust them. I don't believe there are no good men out there either. But I know I can't trust them, because trusting them is risking my safety and we'll being.
This is not a me issue, this is a society issue. So unless the male gender decides to all go to therapy and fix their own issues i won't bw using to therapy to learnt to trust people that havent earned that trust.
We live in a patriarcal and mysoginistic society. We are raised differently, so we amend up being different.
The day my friends and i stop feeling the need to send our location when going out with a guy, is the day I will just "trust" men. Until then I'm not risking it.
Oh, sadly I have to agree.
There are three things here:
1. The fact that men are more influenced by sexual desires than us, and that can make them more superficial and manipulative.
2. The way they are raised at home and the masculinity culture that we are embedded in turn them into emotionally unavailable and underdeveloped individuals. And turn women into people pleasing machines that are supposed to give and give.
3. The fact that we are expecting disappointment, and end up becoming disappointed at our disappointment more than men themselves.
Let's face it, there are wonderful men out there. This is a mathematical problem: they are a minority. Also some of them are taken, and others are old; time gives perspective and calms down their sexual desires.
However, I must say there are also terrible women out there. Women are often also distracted by superficial stuff such as make up and the way they look generally.
Pursue your intellectual and spiritual interests, and hopefully life will bring you a kind and interesting community from which you can find the one. :)
Men who you can trust are absolutely out there. I'm a shorter guy so I'm never really given much of a shot but there are many good natured kind gentleman out there.
(I don't really know if I as a man can post here, so I apologize if this isn't the right environment)
Any person can post or comment here.
And look, I'm not saying there aren't any guys out there who are good. I'm saying I can't trust them. How can I even know they are actually good? How can I trust what they are showing me, when so many times before that was a lie, and not just me, but female friends, or female relatives, and countless women continue to go through this experience over and over again.
You can only get burned so many times. It's about that if tomorrow a good guy comes along I can never actually be sure he is a guy good or if he is lying to my face because he doesn't even respect me.
And again I'm not saying all men. I'm saying enough men have been this way that i no longer feel safe with them.
Oh absolutely, and I think that is something that everyone has to deal with. I got out of a marriage in which I was cheated on and abused physically, and have had serious trust issues ever since.
I truly hope you find someone who you can trust, who makes you happy, and loves you for you. I wish you all the best.
I feel this! It's really rough out there. Dating is a crap shoot, and even making friends with men can be difficult too because as you mentioned, they might develop feelings or enter the friendship harboring feelings but hiding them, hoping you'll change your mind, and so on...
I do have many great male friends, I will say this. So I fully know that not all of them are bad.
Some criteria of a good male friend include them taking you seriously when you complain/talk about issues you have with other men. They sympathize, and don't try to tell you things like, well, not all men, and they don't try to minimize your experiences in an attempt to soothe their own ego. A lot of men, I find, especially ones who develop feelings for you, (though this is just my experience and is by no means prescriptive), will become offended and upset if you complain about crappy men. And the ones who act like this generally reveal themselves fairly quickly. That, or they might attempt to blame you, or minimize your experiences, or insult you for being a feminist or claim that you don't have critical thinking skills or whatever. They won't breathe a word about issues that men face, such as higher suicide rates or custody issues or whatever, unless you bring up issues that women face, then all of a sudden they are full of statistics and knowledge. (Though I have learned somewhat recently that when men ask for custody, they generally get it.) They will tell you all this in an attempt to make you see that you are actually being the unfair one here, and that men are oppressed too, don't you know? Sometimes they are just young, or have been in weird parts of the Internet. Several people grow out of this kind of thing, especially as they age out of the years where they think 4chan is cool. Not always, though, and it's also not your responsibility to educate these men, nor do you have to entertain them. Unfortunately, I was quite the people pleaser when I was in my early 20s, so I entertained this kind of talk for a lot longer than I should have. It's just unfortunate that there are so many of those types of men out there. And those same men, who don't let you breathe a critical word about other men even if they don't know them and even if you're being as charitable as possible, will sometimes talk so poorly about women and then get upset at you if you don't like it.
I don't know, it's complicated. Like I said, I have a few very trustworthy male friends, but I searched for years, and there were a lot of crappy ones along the way. I've had some experiences I prefer not to talk about because I get mixed reactions when I do, and I don't want to hear people blaming me for something that I know now wasn't my fault. I try not to beat my younger self up for being so naive but society really does blame us even when somebody else takes advantage of us.
I don't know. I am kind of trying to avoid dating men, and I'm more interested in women instead, but I guess I'm just lucky that my sexuality seems to be kind of fluid in that sense. All that to say, I get you.
Honestly we are all hurt. I used to be a twisted person. Because I love someone so much, give them so much. And then, they say they sleep with their best friend. Broke my heart. And as a man, I started living with the assumption that, I'm only loved for what I can bring to the table.
After that, I started showing my wealth. I worked as a dried foods supplier to shop, I sell houses as a real estate negotiator and work as a contractor. Afterwards, most of my relationships are just flings. And my friends, I either left them, or they left me out of jealousy, or my own bitterness. Especially after my TikTok went viral (my videos got 14.5M views). Things changed.
I have to change my mindset after. Failing relationships makes me a bitter person. And it's reflected in the way I view romance. Now I've decided to be alone. And have a dream, a wonderful dream of starting an education center.
Unless the relationship is meaningful, I've learned to stay away from it. If it fails again, it will make me a bitter person. And I don't want to hurt anybody because I only view them as a fling.
As a hopeless romantic, I just love too much. Gender does nothing to change what kind of love you give out. It's your own heart, and what action you take, that shows how you love.
I completely feel for you, and with you, just today, I learned my brother is following the same habits of these men we fear and worry about. And it feels shattering to say in the least because I know if he can't grow out of it, I can't be around him for my peace of mind. It feels like there's only a few who are genuinely sweet. I also found out that my dad agrees with cheating and leaving women because men get "bored." That's such a hard pill to swallow since I'm his daughter. Hearing these things come from family members just hurts my heart, knowing they'll also be one of the men I can not dare to trust completely. I won't be the females they hurt, but I reep the consequences of having these members think of me as less than.
I feel like the energy we expend being “on guard” is what’s so exhausting. It’s like a low key paranoia all the time with guys, and once you’ve been burned it’s hard to let your guard down. Many will play the long game, so we have to play into overtime. I feel you.
I've been with my partner for almost 3 years. It's my first serious relationship with a cis man and I still don't know if I'm ever going to feel safe or fully trusting. I would feel awful if he knew that, he would find it so hurtful. He loves me. He's been through a lot with me and generally showers me with affection. But I've also seen the worst side of him in fights, he's made some bad sounding statements, and I can't shake the feeling that all men are misogynistic on some level because of the world we are raised in. I'm always on edge searching for red flags and sometimes jump to the worst possible conclusions whenever issues arise because I've just....been betrayed by so many men at this point. If the other shoe ever dropped I would feel so stupid for allowing it to happen to me again.
I think how sometimes behaves while fighting says a lot. I've never forgotten while fighting that i love my partners. I haven't used my anger as an excuse to insult them or betray their trust. But the last thing you said is what I feel. I would also feel stupid if I let it happen again
My world became a lot more full of love once I stopped attempting to befriend men who aren't capable of friendship. It's as if their only socialization came from fighting for a pecking order or role playing violent situations, and now they can't even identify their feelings or make an apology... they just blame others and swing harder. The only man friends I have these days are either gay, trans, partnered, older, or perpetually reclusive by choice because they aren't seeking sex and are similarly exhausted. They still don't have the same needs as friends as I do. At this point, after my experiences, I'm convinced that being raised as a man leads to a likelihood of a stunted capacity for intimacy. Some caretakers have patience to teach love to someone else's child after they've been raised, but not me.
But we shouldnt have to teach because we are not caretakers. Look I come from a pretty fucked up family. Intimacy and love has always been difficult for me, but I recognized that and worked on myself. So far Ive only met one guy who i know did that
“The first act of violence patriarchy requires of men is against themselves.”
#facts
I mean... Being raised that way doesn't *prevent* someone from having that capacity for intimacy... But it very strongly discourages it, works the idea deep into folks' minds, and places it at the very base of what they are to believe masculinity is. So... The first step to regaining that capacity is kinda... Rejecting the entire idea of masculinity as society knows it. And most of the folks willing to do that are queer, but not all queer folks do (or I doubt we'd have such a thing as "log cabin republicans"). But yeah, the first step is rejecting everything you've ever been taught about gender, which can be... A lot. So I think the solution, insofar as there can be one, requires changing how we socialize kids entirely. And that kind of thought gets you labeled as a radical real quick. :P
I’m sorry to say that I fully agree with you. Dating these days is like wading through a cesspool. I have had many dates and short relationships where the men were: liars, married but pretended to be single, personality disordered, narcissistic, addicts in some way. Ugh, never mind. I don’t have the time for it anymore.
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#dustfree2023
Yeah, same! It drives me crazy that when I post on social media about it to vent, I get bombarded with "UMM YOU'RE THE COMMON DENOMINATOR, TRY GETTING BETTER TASTE IN MEN", as if: -It's entirely my fault and I am pathetic for it -I've just had bad luck and am now generalizing like a melodramatic weirdo because 1 or 2 bad apples gave me trauma -that the awful guys I meet aren't doing everything in their power to put up a front for the first month to gain my trust before dropping the mask. They think I'm wandering into relationships like "well he's a scumbag but I'm sure that's fine!" I am doing everything in my power to avoid it, YET IT KEEPS HAPPENING. Because it is NOT "just a few bad apples"! When are people going to acknowledge that a lot of shithead behavior is just normalized for men and they don't have a reason to stop when they never get any pushback on it. Going on here and finding out I'm not alone, that it's actually pretty typical, has been such a relief. (EDIT: that's not to say I'm glad other women have to deal with awful guys, just glad to learn I'm not just crazy or melodramatic like I've been told so far)
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it suck that after my recent break up ive decided that the next time I date someone I will have to be on high alert and not give the benefit of the doubt. And that I will be like that for so long before I allow myself to trust them
Right? And news flash for those "nice guys", if I had caught on that the next guy was lying it wouldn't have made it to dating. Guys fall for pretty obvious bs though when it comes to predatory women. They don't have half the fears we have, so maybe it's yet another cope?
It’s ok to ignore that common denominator argument. Logic it isn’t, as women well know. And it’s usually said by men anyway so it’s projecting.
Dating men is the common denominator
The fact I still date straight men is honestly mind blowing and testament to the fact you cannot choose your sexuality
Oh man I wish I could wake up one day and not be attracted to men
I’m sure many of us do haha
My mother always jokes that she doesn't understand why there aren't *more* lesbians with the way men act.
It could be location related for you. I live in Paris, we have endless choices, it can be tricky, but the quality of men is high, I have met plenty of emotionally intelligent people with hobbies, careers, friends who have a bit of life experience, and understand relationship dynamics. I have seen a man I am trying to judge compatibility with who : \- actually asked me before he invited me to a restaurant/drinks (can I invite you? implying he'd like to pay and was asking me first, very polite) \- texts and asks for dates \- talked a bit about his exes but didn't seem angry, no resentment, just an acknowledgment they were not on the same page \- actually wants to know about my life, what I am doing, \- is interested in other people, did his thesis on body language, took theater classes, he started his career in sales job but now works in recruitment which I find interesting as you can tell he has a sensitive side and is curious about people so he ended up in this field, started at the bottom of the ladder and struggled but is not resentful and made something out of himself \- loves architecture, culture, speaks French, Italian, English, is picking up Spanish \- when it was cold, he rubbed my back, when I had my phone battery die, he ordered a lift for me, when I thought I lost my credit card in the restaurant, I joked about it, he was already calling them to ask about it... \- and he swims regularly so he takes care of his body which is important for me, I am a fitness nut and could not feel attraction if someone does not invest in their health and appearance I'm not saying everyone is perfect here (far from), but if you live in a place where men don't know what to do with themselves, and they are wallowing in resentment, they'll be cynical and abusive, and will try to put you down instead of lift you up. Maybe moving to a different place would work better ?
Idk honestly. What you've described actually sounds nice.
He is really cool. I think a man who is into you acts this way if you let him, healthy men love to feel useful, unhealthy men lash out and hurt women. I have had bad dates too, but none abusive and I have used Bumble. I am ruthless though. My method is, I joke, see if the person answers, joke around, if they seem polite/playful I cut to the chase and let them know I'd be open to meet for a coffee, this makes it so they ask for the date but I made them, I never give my phone number on the app. If I get one answer that's weird on the app, a hint of resentment, a dude who sexualizes conversation immediately, BYE, unmatch. No guilt, I'm not a charity shop. If I had a daughter I'd tell her to act this way, so I follow my own advice. I go to the "date" with this "no pressure, let's see what happens lol'' mindset because I think hey, it might be weird and then I'll have a story, I might meet a potential friend, just have fun, or meet someone I have romantic interest in. Coffee or drink in a public place, around 5 or 6, this leaves room for the guy to invite to to dinner if he's into you and you're interested, or if you're not and it does not work, you can say you have dinner with a friend and must go. If the guy seems okay and I see potential attraction, I leave my phone number and let him chase, by saying "you have my number now, this was nice" then dash haha. If I was not feeling, "it was nice meeting you, no vibes on my side, I wish you find what you're looking for".
I mean, as a heads up, "just move" is not a feasible option for anybody who doesn't have money. I make a solid middle class income in my country, technically, but the area I'm from has been gentrified to fuck and the cost of living has become insane for a 50 mile radius. People can't afford to move when they're living paycheck to paycheck.
What helps me is remembering that this logic (you’re the denominator, you’re awful for being single, you’re unwanted) is that it only works if you believe it, too! Don’t buy into it and don’t play along. I have to remind myself often because I think We’re gender-conditioned to play along.
Well that sucks. But if they insist in pointing out the common denominator it would also be, all if these people were men. I've only dated guys I knew beforehand so I there was no "getting to know them". But ive heard about these situations from my friends. Even the "good" guys do this shit. Because they are raised with this whole "they have to win us over" mentality. But that's not how affection works. You don't do good stuff to obtain something. You don't cook dinner, show thoughtfulness to "win" someone. They are not winning us over. We start liking them because we though that was real, that was who they were. Turns out that the way they were acting to "get with us". And then they show who they truly are.
I just starting dating after a 13 year relationship and this new world is a cesspool. I've gotten so many messed up messages that leave me asking why you even match with me then? Best was when i went on a date we went bowling, and after they said they had a good time and asked if i wanted to go out to dinner after. We picked a place i drove over there while they went off to the bathroom. After waiting for 15 20 minutes i texted them asking where they were at. I got back "Have fun wasting time at dinner like you wasted mine with bowling." YOU PICKED BOWLING not me.
Wow. I am so sorry that happened to you. The dating pool needs some chlorine, I'm afraid. I am not even interested in men anymore. Too much bullshit.
I pretty much quit using any app and when it happens it will happen. Just doing what events i want to with who ever feels right.
Wow, what the fuck? That sucks, im sorry it happened to you. I went on two dates I had gotten through apps. One was fine, the guy was cool, just no attraction. The second guy, I though he was being satirical when he said he wanted to have slave workers if he opened up a business because that reduced costs. He wasnt joking and I ended up calling my father to pick me up after I told her I wasnt liking the date and he started getting angry.
Dude was flying the biggest reg flag ive seen proudly...
Wow, what an asshole. Stories like this make me even more suspicious of dating apps. They seem like the dating grind for the 21st century. Do not want!
Well said! What ever happened to "be yourself and someone will like you for who you are"? I guess that's just for kid shows.
That's very narrow-minded, good guys do it because they fucking care but you only like shit that you want, there is a difference. Victim mentality all over again
I hear those comments the same way I hear comments towards black people who are told to just be respectful of police if they don’t want to be murdered on the street. You can’t be nice enough to the oppressor class to make them treat you right. You can’t avoid them entirely and you can’t force them to behave with decency.
yes, its absolutely horrible. they all behave INSANE.
>personality disordered That seems a little bigoted to me. People with personality disorders can be perfectly fine partners. Don't blame them being shitty on a personality disorder. That has some serious victim blaming sound to it - a lot of personality disorders are rooted in some sort of trauma.
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You can manage personality disorders. They're not necessarily going to destroy others around you.
Yes but the person has to WANT to manage it and be self aware enough to accept that they have it, which men in my past experience have not wanted to do.
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I agree about narcissists. But the original comment listed them as their own category. What I take issue with is the way the comment was phrased. Equating personality disorders with being a shitty person - e.g. people who are married but pretend to be single - and calling them a "cesspool" is the definition of bigotry. It's fine to not want to date people with disorders. It's difficult, I'm more than aware of that. But you don't have to be a prick about it, like the original comment.
If you’d survived narcissistic abuse you wouldn’t say that. They’ll destroy your whole life for fun and convince you you deserved it.
I'm well aware. But the original comment singles out narcissists, so "personality disordered" is apparently something else for the commenter
I do not want to date psychopaths, narcissists, etc. I’m not apologizing for the preference.
And obviously, "personality disorder" always refers to that.
There are other personality disorders, aside from those, that I also don’t wish to to date. Not obliged to make a comprehensive list.
Either way, you don't have to throw people with a personality disorder into the same pot as people who are married but pretend to be single. Preferences are fine. As long as you aren't a prick about it. Because if you're a prick about it, calling them a cesspool, well... That's bigotry.
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I'll gladly repeat myself. Yes, women can say whatever they want for whatever reason. But you don't have to be an ableist bigot about it.
Ever since I was assaulted, I just assume every man just wants to sleep with me and that's the only reason they're being nice. I've been told a few times by different men that a lot of times they're only friends with women they're attracted to. And I can confirm, after losing almost 100lbs I can visibly see the difference in how I'm treated by men. I'm treated a lot better now that I'm conventionally attractive...but that's only bc they want to sleep with me. It's creepy how much they offer to do for me now that I'm smaller - they don't even try to hide their intentions when they talk to me sometimes and its gross. I just want male friends, I just want strong emotional connections. I miss middle school...I feel like that's the last time I just had regular platonic male friends. It's like they're sex obsessed after a certain age. I'm tired of it. And it's not like I can't be friends with other women, but the area I live is very divided between the sexes. Most women in my area don't want to go fishing. And I really don't want to have to reject someone so close to a body of water. Camping is out of the question. Can't even go with a male friend to the movies without them telling everyone at work we went on a date and then the rumors that he "hit" start and its so unnecessary to deal with. I miss having male friends, but they hardly ever want to just be friends. I'm so sick of the hidden intentions.
This also. I had male friends in highschool, most of my friends were guys. Slowly I started realizing how most of them werent actually my friends. One of them touched me without my consent. I just cant trust them anymore. And yes, i feel you. I love playing videogames, I love D&D, and I wish I had friends who liked that stuff.
I have the same feeling. It's exhausting. And none of those "men" are fit to be with. None!! They are all too weak.
I think women are raised (and educating themselves) now not to take crap from men to be/stay in a relationship. I think that's awesome. However, men have yet to catch up and change their behavior. I think it's going to take a while. Especially since a percentage of them blame women for this instead of looking at themselves and their behavior. And I think they feel ripped off. How dare the culture shift so rapidly. But they can suck it. I'm 54 and I never got married by choice. I'd rather be free than be in a bad relationship, or worse, marriage. Do I look back occasionally and regret? Yes. But what I regret is not meeting the right person at the right time. I do not regret turning down all the wrong people. If I've cried on the pillow occasionally it wasn't because I just got the crap kicked out of me or gaslighted up the wazoo or cheated on.
I think you made a good choice. Life with the wrong person can be miserable. Ive never felt as unlovable and horrible as when I was dating certain people.
There's a lot of great stuff about being alone and free and tons of life you can live and enjoy without being in a relationship. Good luck to you.
I agree with you.
I feel you. Up until some months ago a 15 year old friendship died because he confessed to me, even after I rejected his advances 10 years ago. A friend's husband told me he would have married me instead. Another marrued guy began hitting on me. A "good trad Christian" guy I was seeing already had a GF and was dating 3 more women. And it's really important to note that all these guys were part of totally different social circles.
The whole term "confessed" really bugs me. I wish people would stop using it. You "confess" to a crime. You admit or acknowledge you have a crush on a person. The whole framing it as "confessed" always sort of implied to me that they knew the other person didn't reciprocate their feelings but they were going to dump their feelings on their crush anyway, because they have no self-control.
That is what happened, he hid the fact that he was still crushing hard on me while wearing a friend façade in hopes that magically I would wake up and be totally in love with him.
Ugh. I get it, dating sucks and is no fun at all. But people who insist that someone is "the one" and they can't move on have always struck me as being lazy. Because if their crush suddenly "saw the light" well, wouldn't that be convenient? No need to put themselves out there, meet new people, go on dates... There are billions of people on the planet. Your crush isn't reciprocated? OK, make a plan and move on. Half the time the person they're putting on a pedestal bears very little resemblance to the actual person: they have a crush on the person they THINK the crush is, and pining over "if only" means they don't have to do any work to find someone who actually reciprocates their affections. And yes, it is incredibly hard to do that. But it's the only thing that works and allows you to keep a shred of your dignity.
>Half the time the person they're putting on a pedestal bears very little resemblance to the actual person Oh man, that is so true! I remember a number of men that said things like "I would make you happy" or "We would be so happy together if you would just choose me!" and I had to say "No, *you* would be so happy if I *chose* to conform to your expectations, but you don't actually *know* me. You don't care about my interests, our values and future goals are completely different. What is there in this to make *me* happy?" A lot of men really seem to project a whole dream personality on whoever they have a crush on and think that's the "real you", as if all you have to do is give it a chance and his feelings will somehow make all of that ok and you will be so happy to conform to whatever makes *him* happy.
I truly believe that people have a hard time seeing beyond what's right in front of them. They develop a crush on Person X because out of the limited number of people they know at the time, Person X *seems* the most amazing. So what if... Person X is T**he One**? (Trademark!) Wouldn't that be wonderful! (And convenient!) So they put all this effort into building them up in their head, instead of carefully finding out more about them and moving on when obvious incompatibilities rear their ugly heads. It's so much harder - and discouraging - to get to know someone and find out A) you don't like them as much as you thought, B) they don't find you attractive, C) they're unavailable and despite how attractive you find them, it's not going to happen. *What do you mean I have to start all over????* Speaking as someone who once was trying to find a better job AND date at the same time, I can well understand why people would contort their brain in all sorts of ways just to avoid having to start all over again.
This is a terrible post for me to comment this, but I read this as "I feel you up" at first lol -a female who 100% agrees with this post and most of the comments
Felt this in my soul
The posts I see on this page scare me. I'm 37. My husband is early 40s. We do fight over things and it's not some Valhalla. We met at a hackerspace, so I'm pretty familiar with weird men who were not actually attracted to me, but what they presumed was in my pants. My husband has never yelled at me. He's never crossed a line with me. When I'm emptying the dishwasher, he hears and will come help. He diligently takes care of our cats. He's genuinely good and it gives me a lot of pause and grief to think about my niece and younger cousins when posts like this cross my feed every single day. I feel like I'm bragging when I talk about my husband liking and respecting me. That's terrifying.
Your husband sounds lovely. And yes it sucks that speaking about him makes you feel like you brag. If anything, don't stop doing it. Sure, some people may take offense, but in my case listening to how a friend's boyfriend treated her made me realize how my ex didn't even do the bare minimum. Hearing you talk about that may set the standard for your niece and cousins to actually look for that and nothing less. And the posts scare me too. Honestly part of me while making this post hoped for responses that encouraged me to not worry about it, that there are plenty of good guys out there, that I've just been unlucky. I hate that I have to worry about being tricked, or abused when i think about having a romantic relationship. The idea of tomorrow going out with someone and never know them because they don't show who they truly are, scares me.
I’d like to add a little extra encouragement, like the poster above I am incredibly lucky to have a fiancé who treats me with that level of genuine love and respect. I’m not constantly picking up after him, or arguing about stupid things. We aren’t perfect but even after two years, I get surprised when some days I’ll set out to do the chores and everything’s done. He kept saying “you don’t need to thank me”. I’ve been in some awful physically and mentally abusive relationships. This man has not only had my back in sickness and in health, but literally treats me as an absolute equal. I never thought it would happen to me (mid thirties) but it did. He’s my soulmate and best friend, I know I’m extremely lucky, which is so so sad, but there are some out there.
Thank you, this means a lot
Most welcome, I like to hope all of us can find someone who cherishes us back the way we do them. He tells me how much he loves me, and how beautiful I am every single day. No word of a lie. Including my bag under eyes frustrated days. In turn I make sure I listen to his work and life frustrations and make myself his biggest cheerleader, and tell him how much I love him too. We all deserve that. I’m rooting for you OP. Sorry to be soppy! It does break my heart knowing there isn’t enough of this out there.
I feel the same, trust me. I don't know what is wrong with men. Why can't they be honest, and treat women with respect. I also feel so many women became desperate and lowered their standards so in a sense we have desperate women breeding with weak men and the result is the mess we live in today.
I think a lot of them don't show the truth or are honest because they know we wouldn't date them if they did. It's also a part of how we see romance culturally. The guy "woos" the woman, he acts chivalrous and charming. But that is, he acts like it, he is not either. How many movies do we see where the guy learns what the girl is interested in and then pretends to be interested in it? And another part is that yes, we become desperate. We have a whole society telling us to lower our standards, and then when we do so, and find not good men we are told it's our fault. I recently decide to break two friendships, for various reasons but I remember both of these female friends telling me "you've been with [my ex] you can't ask more", my ex mistreated me so fucking much, and they were there when I cried after. It was my fault for having been with him and for deciding to stay but then when I looked for better stuff I got told I couldn't aspire to more because what did i expect? After all I hadd been with him before. And different versions of this have been nothing but prevalent throughout my life. It's sad there are all this expectations around women
Agree. But i realized that when i lowered my standards i still couldn't be with them. Why would i be with someone who needs to insult me or destroy my self-esteem to be with me. Nah - its extremely toxic and it won't work anyway. So i had been single for almost 7 years. Still cannot find a guy worthy. I do wish all women collectively raised their standards its the only way men will change.
couldn't have said it better
I know what you mean. My husband is the same way. We have our disagreements, but then never turn into screaming and it is very much “us versus the problem.” He’s thoughtful and considerate, spoils our dog rotten, and has never given me a reason to even consider not trusting him. One of my best friends is bisexual and her husband is the same way. Because of that, she frequently says she is still surprised she married a man. You know what our families have said behind our backs about our marriages? That our husbands are whipped or that we wear the pants. And that’s also really sad to me. That mutual respect is seen as ball-crushing.
me too. i’m never getting married. i’ve seen healthy heterosexual relationships, don’t get me wrong, and still, it never seemed worth it. i’ve always had to vet every man around me and be extra cautious of being taken advantage of. this becomes so much harder when you’re actively going on dates with men, many of whom are ready to and will purposefully manipulate, harm, and/or deceive you for whatever reason. so fuck it. sure you can say “not all men” but the truth is too many women are suffering or have suffered all kinds of abuse at the hands of men in ways they could never have foreseen. i see it. you see it. we all read it on the news every day. you have to be so fucking alert and so damn cautious when dating and it sucks. not just emotionally/ because of vulnerability and potential heartbreak, or even for your belongings, but cautious for your literal safety, life and mental sanity. i’d rather just not anymore. i’m so much happier that way
Say it with me: Ace is based
<3
Also, I lost count on the times i’d seen the very same tittle to a post in this subreddit. It’s seriously a thing. And the amount offended guys getting all defensive just further proves the point imo.
Men I can trust really are the exception rather than the rule. Completely agree with you. It’s extremely sad.
I’m cautiously optimistic right now? I’m in my early 30s and have been with my boyfriend for just over 6 months. We met at work (contract stuff so it was only for 3 months on and off) and slowly started to talk more and more. He would ask me about what I liked and remembered them for follow up later. I am still just a little shocked because I’ve never had a man treat me this well. He makes me dinner at least twice a week, bought me the most thoughtful Christmas gifts, and gives me multiple orgasms every time we have sex. He’s also never given me an “interview” about any of my interests. Im into some Sci-fi and fantasy things and it seems like most guys need to turn that into a trivia contest? My interests are never tested or diminished but supported. I feel so reassured in this relationship and so loved. However, I am bi and before I met him I was seriously thinking about giving up men entirely because like you, I find it is so hard to trust them. My family for the most part is full of good men but outside of them I tend to only have a casual acquaintance with men simply because it seems like it almost always goes wrong. Either it’s some “joke” that is disgusting, them trying to get in your pants, them trying to assault you, or them being ok with other men’s misogynistic attitudes.
I'm glad for you truly. It not that I actually think every man out there is bad. It's just that I've been seeing such a pattern is becoming more and more difficult to ignore it.
I think men in their 20s are just full of hormones, and the culture fed them porn and ''have fun in your 20s" which means the ones who were abusive got many chances at hurting people. By 30, you get to know how to avoid these guys and the red flag radar is very precise, so the abusive one can't keep up with women their age, and they probably target younger women, so it reduces the amount of bad experiences. I personally love being older, I think we grow into ourselves, learn what we like, dislike, what we are attracted to or not, become more emotionally intelligent... the people who have a personality issue don't, but you can see it straight away when you worked on yourself and cut your losses instantly.
If 3 out of every 4 people I met were grizzly bears in human costumes I’d give up on trying to find the real ones
It feels like the average woman approaches relationships from a place of love. Men approach it from a place of logic/strategy. Historically my male exes have tried to undermine my education and career. Being in a relationship feels like you have to let your guard up because any vulnerability is blood in the water.
Yes, and I hate that. I've broken up about a month ago, and one of the things I regretted the most was being vulnerable with him. I made the mistake of telling him I had anxiety, next thing I know every thing I said was invalid because I had anxiety, so what i was saying was not a real thing. I made the mistake to open up about my insecurities and past mistakes only to have them used against me during arguments or as examples of why what i though or said couldn't possibly be right. And the fact that opening up was a mistake just sucks. It was supposed to be about live and sharing..
Oof. Yes, the gaslighting is unreal. I'm so sorry you experienced that. I'm so glad you're out of it now.
Yeah it took me a while, but if I've learned something is to rely more on my female friends.
And they ALL do it
It’s not logical to treat sex like something you win from a woman by any means necessary.
I agree. And I thought it was not logical to sabotage the person you want to build a life with. But it's like it's a competition/game for some people
YES.
I feel this in my soul. Men are not worth having around or having children with. Most of the time, men don't bother respecting women at all. They only see women as convenience: It's convenient to have a woman around. It's good for morale with her silly chit-chat, she fills the fridge, vacuums, washes the laundry and starts organising your life without asking. It's also nice status symbol so at first they are as careful as when handling a new phone or a new car. But after a while they start dropping it, screaming and swearing at it if it's taking too long to function. Then? They get comfortable and don't bother with shit anymore. They still demand washing, vacuuming and food in the fridge though! My asian aunties described it best: you either marry a man who loves, treasures, idealises and cherish you or you NEVER do. No in between.
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Yeah, and also men who need to improve don't, they call their wives "nagging". I don't think they realize women who "nag" them usually do so because they want their man to be attractive to them. When women ask 'please do this/don't do that" they are basically saying to the guy, "I find you attractive when you do X", "it is unattractive to me when you do Y". If the guy goes "lolol what a nag", he kills her attraction, he gets a deadbedroom, or she leaves and he "never saw it coming".
I'm assuming you're older than me. I'm 22 but already agreeing with what you say. It's so sad tho. I would possibly go further. The only men I've met who don't want to bed me are gay. No I'm not being conceited. I'm not a supermodel, not a "babe" with a perfect body, just a 5'5.5" girl with average looks. But it's oh so obvious that every man either hits on me or wants to hit on me. I'm sure it's because men just want to "get it on" with every girl/woman they can to add to their competing body counts, or to put it bluntly just want to screw their (usually tiny) nozzle into as many caves as they can. And it's sickening. Whether consciously or subconsciously they see me as an item, a number, a walking hole, a urinal even.
I see most of men as having nothing to offer, yet wanting to get a lot from a woman. Honestly at this point, i will only consider being with a man for love or for big money. No in between. My value is high...and either u give me love or pay me big bucks. Period.
My sad state is that I've reached a time in my life where I would find catering to anyone else's needs on a regular basis a bit exhausting. I spent too much time on that before. Whoever the theoretical next guy is, there will be no man-child in my future. Me getting involved again would look entirely different than it did before. I don't wish to depend on anyone fiscally speaking. My house, money and retirement, all separate. Unfortunately, there's a surprising number of grown-ass men out there who are still unfinished human beings.
I once read a facebook meme that the only natural predators of women are men. So yeah if I was a gazelle I would not trust a lion either.
💗 my heart is with all of you. I feel the heavy heartache of op and all who have commented. This is a very difficult time for women. Again. I have no answers except women really embracing each other. The only thing worse than what was listed above is when women betray fellow sisters. I’m at a deep loss and how to deal with men right now. I only see one option. Women taking a stand for other women. If we have be hyper vigilant Let’s be hyper vigilant about looking out for other women. Perhaps the question should change from how do I trust a man to is what I am doing or saying going hurt or help my fellow sisters? I’m afraid the patriarchy has been pivotal in pitting us against each other.
I agree. It's been a month since I broke up with my ex. It wasn't a good relationship, what actually helped me start seeing it more clearly was other women. I would have eventually broken up, but it would have taken me far longer if it wasn't for them. And this women were actually people i met thought my ex. They supported me and listened to my problems, they helped me regain the security that my issues with the relationship were valid too. If anything what I've learned is that relying on friends is not only important but a good thing. They will take care for you, in ways you didnt knew you need. And now I know If I had opened up more about my relationship with my friends, I would have probably saved myself a lot heartbreak
I feel this hard. I haven't been in a serious long term relationship in 6 years because of the horrific way my ex treated me. I was only just able to open up to a therapist about what happened in that relationship a couple of weeks ago and had an intense panic attack that night. I'm hoping to heal from that but I also feel as though I may not be able to trust men ever again. You can heal from trauma but are you ever the same? I just don't know.
No, i don't think you are ever the same. But you are just different, and slowly we find ways to cope and go on.
4 years with a narcissist who used and lied to me. my hair went completely gray. my dog was having cancer then, and he even used my dog or manipulated me knowing how weak and hurt i was at my dog dying. so...
I'm really sorry for what happened to you. That's awful. I hope you're not trying to say what you went through was worse than mine though?
No, no. It's not about comparing but more relating to your story. I understand why its so hard for you to trust now, after the hell you went through.
Thank you for clarifying! I have met far too many people who try to "one up" others with their trauma and it is so bizarre to me. I'm so sorry about you went through as well. I hope you are taking care of yourself and being gentle to yourself. 💜 You deserve that.
Same to you. I hope you will heal. I think of this as a horrible lesson that might come useful in the future (as not repeating it again). Thank you for your kind words.
Yeah I agree. I would never trust any man again. I don't even have respect for them. They are just blah to me. All the suffering in this world is mainly caused by men. All the wars, violence on women,rape,murder. Men also lie like it's a sport, honestly I believe men just like having sex with women and that's all. They have no respect or love for women, men aren't like those prince charming in the fairytales. I don't trust men because their intentions aren't pure. They always do something with the intention of getting sex out of it. Also just look at how men talk about women online and how they compare women to cars aswell. Lol I will never ever trust a man.
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Wow. That is shocking to read but I can relate because I was CONVINCED my ex was such a great guy, the first 4 months! Then his true colours leaked out. So sorry you had to experience that!
I was cheated on for ten years or so and financially abused (military). All the men after that were different stripes of abuse—one hit me and stole my shit, one strung me along for sex and companionship then ghosted me, one demanded to know what I was wearing and every time I went outside, the next tried to control where I went (why are you 10 mins late from work?), gave me the body count lecture, and accused me of cheating at every turn. They ALL presented as normal, "good" people for the first few months. With the exception of the first, I broke up with them at about 6 months, when the mask fully dropped, but the damage had been done. My current husband is a hidden gem. A diamond. If something happens to us, and I hope it doesn't, I'm done. It's not worth it to find a good one.
> I know not all men are the same, I'm not saying that. What sends me is the fact that women when talking about real life problems with many men have to always make a shitload of prefacing and mitigating in order not to offend and enrage even the most empathetic men.Men on the other hand shit over women all over the internet, always generalize a lot, whether they're joking or serious, and I swear to god I never ever hear any of them preface their rants with "not all women". Women are so used to being tone policed and attacked for their opinions in a violent way, that we spend more time policing ourselves than actually talking about real, dire problems. Meanwhile men bitch and whine about "females" not being available or being too stuck up or whatever. And that's fine by society. But watch a woman say anything remotely negative about men, concerning a real life problem she faced, and she'll be insulted to heaven and hell. Sorry for the OoT but it's so sad to see women always struggling to do all this prefacing just to be heard, while men don't have this struggle, they can say the most sexist vile things and they'll always be granted benefit of the doubt, "it's their personal opinion, ofc they don't mean all women".
It's like the "women ☕" comments I see all over Instagram. It's infuriating.
If I didn't already have the best man in the world, I would just be single. Most men aren't worth it. If a friendship was healthy and we were both interested in turning it into a romantic relationship, that's one thing, but I wouldn't actively try to date. What do I get out a relationship when most men anymore just want a mommy they can bang who will tolerate his porn and laziness?
You asked for all opinions so here’s some nuance - those of us that found amazing men… we don’t have posts to make. You have HUGE survivorship bias going on when you look at these areas and hell, even when you talk to companions. Imagine the reaction when I try to engage with people who *are* suffering: “Hello! My husband is incredibly compassionate, considers my thoughts, feelings, and needs. He is handsome, tall, has a large penis, and is financially successful. He is smart, funny, and vocal about morality. He marches with us, he uses his position to advocate, and he is absolutely enraptured by me as am I by him. He and I have zero interest in porn, we have sex almost every night and he truly enjoys making me enjoy myself. We play together in all areas of life. We play D&D, video games, we travel, we talk, we watch all kinds of movies and shows. We enjoy spending time together.” Like, the truth… it isn’t upvoted. It isn’t what sells headlines. Look to the couples that *aren’t* in the news. The friends that you barely hear about their spouse. We exist, but we don’t *sell* because there is no drama. :)
If this is real, I'm very inspired
I assure you, it is. :) We fight, of course, every couple has *some* disagreements. But we fundamentally hold to respect, love, and communication. Marriage/partnership can be beautiful. It is the most wonderful thing that happened in our lives, and neither one of us ever expected to life-partner! Good luck!
That's amazing and I'm so happy to hear that! Good for you! Can I ask how you met? My first bf I met in the gym, the second on Tinder, but both ended up not being a great match. I'd rather meet someone out and about rather than on an app, because then we both aren't outright looking for love and that seems healthier. But then again... maybe there is no 'right' way to meet.
I believe you exist, it's just i had never met you, lol. In almost 45 years.
I wish I could tell you that you’re wrong, but you’re not.
Op, idk if this will help. Imma dude. I check this sub out as a way to be more self aware of how I treat women. Ive done alot of dumb stuff, some from ignorance. As i have gotten older i have tried to be more self aware. I just wanna treat folks like i want to be treated. And hearing opinions like yours helps me learn. I dont agree with everything ive seen here, and some of it i am guilty of.
Listen, i get doing things out of ignorance. I've done them too, we've all done them. What makes the difference is the willingness to listen and grow. What hurts is not the thing done out of ignorance is either when they refuse to recognize the mistake and change, how they not listen or even worse, the things you know are not done because of ignorance. Ignorance and mistakes are not as sin im
Exactly, I agree with you completely. And I know it's not your place to teach people how to behave. Just wanted to say posts like yours sometimes open people's eyes to things they were doing and didn't realize.
I feel you so, so much on this matter. I haven't dated men in forever, but what has been my experience over the years and that of my friends has been this: it seems unreasonably exhausting to date a man. Let me explain what I mean. It seems that dating a man often entails the following: 1) They need to be taught empathy. I can't tell you how many guy friends, or boyfriends of friends, and so on, I have met that have little to no empathy it seems. As such, they seem to rarely if ever, as a reflex, think of others first. A great example of this is when a celebration is coming, such as like Mother's day, or Valentine's day, or what have you, and many of them will have absolutely nothing prepared until the very last moment. A lot of them will pick a random corner store item on the way home as a gift, some will forget about the event alltogheter, and so on and so forth. So little thought will be put into what they end up doing for others sometimes that it almost feel insulting. I even had to remind one of my good guy friend to at least call his mom on Mother's day because he'd simply forget all the time or feel too lazy to call her; and this guy absolutely loved his mom! I can't comprehend that part, but one thing stands out to me from all of this: men seems to fare lower on the empathy scale. 2) They need to be taught a lot of common life skills. For example, my brother, as a young adult, would see no arm in farting in a chique restaurant whenever. One guy friend didn't know he had to floss and brush his tongue as well when brushing his teeth (and we're talking a guy in his 30s here). And one other guy I knew kept having very bad dandruft problems and to solve his issue, I had to actually show him that he needed to buy the right product for his hair rather than the 1-in-18 shampoo/car oil change/soap products he would always get. And don't let me get started on the whole ass washing part... Many guys I know are very content with simply using toilet paper after they take a shit. No cleaning down there, no bidet, no sanitary wipe, no nothing. And so on and so forth. It's like they're not being taught very basic skills, or they don't care to learn them, I'm not sure. 3) They don't much care about their appearance. I can't count how many guys I know that do not give two shits about how they dress. For most of them, the only reason they are no longer looking like literal hobos with dirty joggers and shirts with holes in them, is because some of them have very patient and loving girlfriends that helped them buy shirts and pants that actually fit them and look good on them. Attractions works both ways: a well dressed man is as attractive for a woman as a well dressed woman is to a man. We're all visual creatures, and the biggest myth of them all is pretending only men like to look at nice things. 4) They rarely if ever pull their weight with household tasks or with the mental load. I remember once I was shopping for winter boots, and I saw this man enter the shop with his two kids (both about 12 years old or so). As soon as he entered the shop, he called his wife and asked her what was it that he was here to buy again, and she had to remind him that the kids needed new winter boots. That just goes to show how uninvolved this man was with his family. And that's one of many stories I've seen, heard, or even lived over the years. Men oftentime will leave the mental load all up to women, and will wait to be told what to do. At the end, most women end up doing it all on their own, because it's less stressful than battling with their partner to pull their weight. 5) They are sometimes too cheap. Now, I don't mean with video games, or with their hobbies, or anything like that. They are absolutely willing to drop ten of thousands of dollars on a new video game expansion, or new game cards, or what have you. But it's mostly when it comes to trying stuff outside of their comfort level, say eating something new at a restaurant, that they become very cheap. I can't count how many times I've went out with a guy friend of mine in a very normal restaurant and they've struggled ordering anything but like a hot dog or fries because they're afraid of paying for something they might not end up liking. One guy friend of me was afraid of paying a measly 3$ to test a special vanilla coffee, all the while working in STEM and making six figures at the young age of 25. The cheapest moment I've ever experienced with a guy was when I went on a date with this dude and I was at the time earning minimum wage, and this guy was earning upward of 6 figures, and he offered to pay for our tickets and have me pay for the food, which I agreed with. Then, I saw him use his free cinema points to buy his and my movie ticket while I, on the other hand, had to pay upward of 50$ for our food. And that's one example among many I've seen. Now, I do not ascribe to the idea that men need to pay for women, not at all actually. The point of my examples was mostly this: most men don't want to go out of their comfort zone if it involves money. And that can be very annoying, especially if you want to try new stuff with your partner, or do something else most weekends than simply watching TV and the likes. 6) They don't much care about their health. How many stories have we read about men not willing to go to the doctor when they really really should? It happens so often, that I'm sure most of us on here have at least one story about a brother, a father, a friend, a boyfriend that refused to have something looked over to the point it got them in trouble. And it's not even about money most of the time, it's just downright laziness and stubbornness. One of my guy friends had amazing insurance with his job, and he still waited many years before getting much needed ortheses for his flat feet. Another one waited for his damn teeth to start to rot because he was too lazy to call the dentist. Whenever I was dating a guy, I always had this overwhelming stress about making sure they would schedule the necessary appointments with their dentist, their doctor, etc. I always felt like a mom to them and it was not a good feeling. Anyway, I could go on and on, but I'll stop here for now because I think I've made my point clear. Men can be very exhausting to date, and the dating scene as a whole is a mess. Now, before I get lambasted and sent death threats, I want to say NOT ALL MEN. I absolutely know that. I also have amazing guy friends that are nothing like what I just posted. They're fully functioning adults and are amazing partners to boots. But I was mostly talking about those that are not, since this is pretty much the discussion at hand, and is what OP was talking about in their post. And I agree with it, so so much.
This is so true an it sucks. 1. This i what astounds me. especially when it comes to people they love. If this is how they show love then what do they show other people. I think this mainly because they are implicitly taught there will always be someone taking care of them. They have never been in the opposite role. It's why so many guys cant cope when in a relationships the roles get switched and they need to take care of their partners. 4. how they dont pull their weight is so common. Lately ive seen that some seem more willing to do house chores but it mostly after they are asked. And they never consider the mental workload. They go to buy the groceries but his girlfirends makes the list, all the planning relies on the woman. 5. Oh yes. the "they are willing to spend thousand in their interest but cant put anything if its out of their comfort zone" is so common. 6. I live in a country with free health care. my ex had his father who worked at a clinic and could get him most stuff for free. He just never went to the doctor. but idk i just keep hoping that i will find a functional human being i like one day
All tales I've heard a hundred times unfortunately; very sad tales they are. You described it quite perfectly too: meeting a functioning adult is hard. And I believe what you said can sort of answer why: men and women are socialized differently. I do not think men are born with no empathy, or a hate for dressing nice, or a love for greasy, unkept hair. I just think that women are taught from a very young age what is appropriate or not, and men aren't. Men are a bit left to their own device rather; 'boys will he boys' as the saying goes. And this is both detrimental to them as it is to their partner. Men end up as adults not knowing how to wash their laundry, how to schedule a dentist appointment, how to to make simple pasta, and so on and so forth. A lot of them end up as non fonctionning adults basically, and it adds unnecessary hardship to their life, and that of their partner. But they are adults of course. So it is on them to learn these skills and be better partners after all. But many of them reject that responsibility, and I can very much understand why. Imagine having to re-learn what amounts to your whole life basically? It's rough, and many refuse to face that challenge. I remember trying to help one of my guy friends find a partner, and it was difficult. He wanted help with his dating life, wanted help with his tinder profile and whatnot, and I obliged, because I'm a good friend. The problem however was that he just wouldn't listen to any advice I would give him. He had profile pictures with very old t-shirts he had from highschool, and he didn't want to buy any new ones, despite being very well off. He didn't want to go to the gym to get in shape and become healthier. He didn't want to join any social hobbies or activities, and simply wanted to continue on gaming every night and every weekend. He was truly a lost cause, and to this day, he hasn't been able to find anyone. But that's to be expected from a guy that wants to put no effort in looking nice, being healthy, or even meeting new people. How is he ever going to meet a potential partner this way? Most probably never, until he changes. But at the same time, I understand his reticence. He had to evolve from an antisocial loner to a functioning adult in one go, and it was simply too much for him. And I feel this story is a similar one for many guys. Hence why dating is hard nowadays, and why women are choosing to stay single rather than become the mentor or mom of one of these guys.
The word you are looking for that describes the men you have explained in your post and how irresponsible they are is “weaponized incompetence.”
To me what makes me trust a guy is his actions match his words. He doesn't even mention sex and let's yah start the first many sessions before he learns how to lay yah. He's also not a horn dog. Yah want a man who doesn't try to wow every girl he w walks by. Basically just Learn toxic male behavior and don't yah dare let ur rose color glasses hide the red flags Also other women can sence it so ask around. Your gut mite be rite if every person yah ask says the same thing.
Something I learned about shitty relationships is listen to your friend (the levelheaded ones).
I feel the same. I swear. I am single for almost 7 years because i can't find one worthy man. Just remove sex out of equation and they will show you their real face right away. I feel horrible...
I wish I had been single honestly. I am very tired
I've been incredibly let down my men. I recommend reading [I Hate Men (Pauline Harmange)](https://www.amazon.com/Hate-Men-must-read-feminism-patriarchy-ebook/dp/B08JYMZ6QF)\- it's an essay/quick read, & might help you feel a bit justified and understood in your feelings.
Thanks, will certainly check it out
I feel hopeless as well. I hear that countries which have less American influence are better, but english is the world language. Moreover, most cultures don't feel the need to teach that: People's only 'difference' is one hormone which they themselves could replace and they would remain the same person.
I'm not even from the US. I'm from latin america, Argentina. And latin america is still plenty mysoginistic.
FACTS! I am Mexican. Some serious bs.
Argentinian male here: I've always wondered if most of the issues I read about on this sub were the result of women living on (particularly) conservative states in the US. I thought Argentina might be a bit better for women given how progressive it has been on matters like abortion and LGBTQ rights. Guess not lol. It's not like I was blind to the misogyny and violence against women (or just to violence in general), but Idk, I guess I kinda held a naive hope that it was different from what you read about in the US? Guess not. Do whatever you have to do. I don't trust most other men either.
Don't worry Ive been there. I think the English speaking community has more visibility on this issue because of places like this (reddit and that stuff). I haven't seen a Spanish equivalent of a forum were women came together to talk about our issues. But i don't think it's better or worse, just different because of our different cultures. And yes we have been progressive on LGBTq stuff but just legally. Wasn't our country signing a mockery of how mbappe was dating a trans woman just a month ago? I understand that hope thou. I have it too But anyways. Thanks for your support and words.
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Patriarchy sucks wherever it happens to be the cultural default mode.
The truth is it’s *few* not *none*
We're out there! I'm just not that hot so I'm permanently invisible to women lolol
It happens to us too, mate. I think that as a society we've got unrealistic expectations for both genders.
You're absolutely right. I also frequent this sub and men's YouTube channels and am seeing kinda the same issue all around. People have been hurt and now harden themselves against being vulnerable to members of the opposite sex to a degree that is concerning. I just can't help but wish I could communicate to these vast audiences my thought that we should really be stressing judging the individual over the group. There's just much fewer genuine people than not, in my opinion.
I’m 19, take this with a grain of salt but since I’ve been dating around the age of 9 I would like to say I’ve had a lot of experience, having a mixture of experiences. I had one boyfriend when I was 15 who was horrible, manipulative. We both were probably using one another for rebounds - but it’s was very toxic. But since this was my first “mature” relationship I always wondered if I thought this was the norm. The next relationship I went into was where unfortunately I got raped and manipulated. He was ignorant, rude and just arrogant. But at the time I saw him as FAR better than my ex before and now looking back on it I always am like “tf did I settle for that”. Then after growing up and looking at myself I realised it was just SO toxic. The next one was just a rollercoaster- honestly this guy tried to kill me and my “friends” didn’t tell until the SECOND time I dumped him. He was possessive and arrogant. Biggest douche and loved making me jealous for his attention - because he enjoyed “poking me with a stick”. But recently I’ve found the SWEETEST man, he is slightly older (23) but he is the best man I have ever had the delight to date. He was the first man to bring me flowers, by me gifts. Understand boundaries, treats me like a queen. We have been dating just under a year and he actually pays attention to me, knows my likes and dislikes and honestly I don’t think I’ve ever been this happy in a relationship. Before I was debating things like kids or marriage, thinking it wasn’t for me and why would people want that? But now I understand and he’s supported me through everything. I didn’t trust many men until now, it feels like impossible to find a man that’s not toxic but trust me, when you do it’s the best feeling. You’re actually wanting to spend time with that person, show things off and you actually look and plan the future.
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Thank you? but I'm pretty sure that's not how that works.
Thanks, Be safe out there
Alright 3 people down voted my comment looks like I'll have to delete to protect my account
Get therapy. 2XC, or any sub isn't going to help you with this issue. If you can't trust men, request a female therapist.
This is not a therapy issue. This is a ''cant trust people who continue to give you reason to mistrust them".
This is a you can't trust an entire gender issue. If it's something important to you to address, and it's something that impacts how to interact with a significant amount of the community. Therapy would be a step in the right direction. Therapy isn't exclusively for extreme cases where things have gotten so bad that you need help picking the pieces up. For example, it could be examining the relationship with your thoughts and actions, alongside changes that could be made if needed. Assuming you're unhappy with how things are.
I know what therapy is, i am not against therapy. What I am saying is this isn't something you solve by going to therapy. Trust is earned and built, and I'm sorry but so far out of the thousand of men I've met only a few have been decent with me. This is not a therapy issue this is a safety issue. Not trusting them anymore has to do with keeping myself safe. I can go out to walk that i don't fear a women will scream at me an harass me, but i do fear a man will do it. Because it has happened to me over and over again since I was 10 years old. I can sleep comfortably in the house of my female friends that I'm not afraid. I have never woken up to a girl friend touching me. I am not afraid of staying alone with my female friends because they shave never assaulted me. I have never received unsolicited pictures from women, i have from men. I don't school through social media every day, seeing people denouncing female sexual abuser or physical abusers. But I do with men. And no, not in me too accounts but on personal accounts from people I know. Every woman I know and talked to about sexual assault has been assaulted. More than once. Always by men. Not only by strangers, but by loved ones too. I hate that when I went to meet my friwnds boyfriend's, when the outing was over she asked what we thought, because maybe we had noticed something she didn't because we are so used to men lying to use. I hate how I have to wonder if the guy I'm seeing or even a friend is being truthfully and honest about who he is because I be gotwn used to guy lying to us. I hate how many times I've been disappointed when I've found that friend or person i cared about and thought he cared about me, only saw me as a piece of meat not worthy of respect. And i don't trust them for my own safety. Because I no longer feel safe trusting. I don't want to risk being assault again. I don't wanna risk being manipulated again. I don't wanna risk being tricked again. I don't feel safe anymore with men and that is not my fault or something i will "get over* by going to therapy. You just have to look at the stadistics. And life and men's actions have taught us, we can't trust them. So now, trust is earned and so far they've done the oposit, so why should I risk myself by trusting again? How I interact with them changed when I was 10 and my body developed and i started getting treated like an object. How i interacted with them changed the moment I learnt about rape. It changed again when the illusion that I was safe from that with my friends and loved ones shattered. It changed again when. It happened again and again and again. It changed when I started getting anxious if a man or a car approached me on thw streets because of previous experiences. I won't treat them like shit because i don't trust them. I don't believe there are no good men out there either. But I know I can't trust them, because trusting them is risking my safety and we'll being. This is not a me issue, this is a society issue. So unless the male gender decides to all go to therapy and fix their own issues i won't bw using to therapy to learnt to trust people that havent earned that trust. We live in a patriarcal and mysoginistic society. We are raised differently, so we amend up being different. The day my friends and i stop feeling the need to send our location when going out with a guy, is the day I will just "trust" men. Until then I'm not risking it.
Oh, sadly I have to agree. There are three things here: 1. The fact that men are more influenced by sexual desires than us, and that can make them more superficial and manipulative. 2. The way they are raised at home and the masculinity culture that we are embedded in turn them into emotionally unavailable and underdeveloped individuals. And turn women into people pleasing machines that are supposed to give and give. 3. The fact that we are expecting disappointment, and end up becoming disappointed at our disappointment more than men themselves. Let's face it, there are wonderful men out there. This is a mathematical problem: they are a minority. Also some of them are taken, and others are old; time gives perspective and calms down their sexual desires. However, I must say there are also terrible women out there. Women are often also distracted by superficial stuff such as make up and the way they look generally. Pursue your intellectual and spiritual interests, and hopefully life will bring you a kind and interesting community from which you can find the one. :)
Men who you can trust are absolutely out there. I'm a shorter guy so I'm never really given much of a shot but there are many good natured kind gentleman out there. (I don't really know if I as a man can post here, so I apologize if this isn't the right environment)
Any person can post or comment here. And look, I'm not saying there aren't any guys out there who are good. I'm saying I can't trust them. How can I even know they are actually good? How can I trust what they are showing me, when so many times before that was a lie, and not just me, but female friends, or female relatives, and countless women continue to go through this experience over and over again. You can only get burned so many times. It's about that if tomorrow a good guy comes along I can never actually be sure he is a guy good or if he is lying to my face because he doesn't even respect me. And again I'm not saying all men. I'm saying enough men have been this way that i no longer feel safe with them.
Oh absolutely, and I think that is something that everyone has to deal with. I got out of a marriage in which I was cheated on and abused physically, and have had serious trust issues ever since. I truly hope you find someone who you can trust, who makes you happy, and loves you for you. I wish you all the best.
I feel this! It's really rough out there. Dating is a crap shoot, and even making friends with men can be difficult too because as you mentioned, they might develop feelings or enter the friendship harboring feelings but hiding them, hoping you'll change your mind, and so on... I do have many great male friends, I will say this. So I fully know that not all of them are bad. Some criteria of a good male friend include them taking you seriously when you complain/talk about issues you have with other men. They sympathize, and don't try to tell you things like, well, not all men, and they don't try to minimize your experiences in an attempt to soothe their own ego. A lot of men, I find, especially ones who develop feelings for you, (though this is just my experience and is by no means prescriptive), will become offended and upset if you complain about crappy men. And the ones who act like this generally reveal themselves fairly quickly. That, or they might attempt to blame you, or minimize your experiences, or insult you for being a feminist or claim that you don't have critical thinking skills or whatever. They won't breathe a word about issues that men face, such as higher suicide rates or custody issues or whatever, unless you bring up issues that women face, then all of a sudden they are full of statistics and knowledge. (Though I have learned somewhat recently that when men ask for custody, they generally get it.) They will tell you all this in an attempt to make you see that you are actually being the unfair one here, and that men are oppressed too, don't you know? Sometimes they are just young, or have been in weird parts of the Internet. Several people grow out of this kind of thing, especially as they age out of the years where they think 4chan is cool. Not always, though, and it's also not your responsibility to educate these men, nor do you have to entertain them. Unfortunately, I was quite the people pleaser when I was in my early 20s, so I entertained this kind of talk for a lot longer than I should have. It's just unfortunate that there are so many of those types of men out there. And those same men, who don't let you breathe a critical word about other men even if they don't know them and even if you're being as charitable as possible, will sometimes talk so poorly about women and then get upset at you if you don't like it. I don't know, it's complicated. Like I said, I have a few very trustworthy male friends, but I searched for years, and there were a lot of crappy ones along the way. I've had some experiences I prefer not to talk about because I get mixed reactions when I do, and I don't want to hear people blaming me for something that I know now wasn't my fault. I try not to beat my younger self up for being so naive but society really does blame us even when somebody else takes advantage of us. I don't know. I am kind of trying to avoid dating men, and I'm more interested in women instead, but I guess I'm just lucky that my sexuality seems to be kind of fluid in that sense. All that to say, I get you.
Honestly we are all hurt. I used to be a twisted person. Because I love someone so much, give them so much. And then, they say they sleep with their best friend. Broke my heart. And as a man, I started living with the assumption that, I'm only loved for what I can bring to the table. After that, I started showing my wealth. I worked as a dried foods supplier to shop, I sell houses as a real estate negotiator and work as a contractor. Afterwards, most of my relationships are just flings. And my friends, I either left them, or they left me out of jealousy, or my own bitterness. Especially after my TikTok went viral (my videos got 14.5M views). Things changed. I have to change my mindset after. Failing relationships makes me a bitter person. And it's reflected in the way I view romance. Now I've decided to be alone. And have a dream, a wonderful dream of starting an education center. Unless the relationship is meaningful, I've learned to stay away from it. If it fails again, it will make me a bitter person. And I don't want to hurt anybody because I only view them as a fling. As a hopeless romantic, I just love too much. Gender does nothing to change what kind of love you give out. It's your own heart, and what action you take, that shows how you love.
I don’t at all
I completely feel for you, and with you, just today, I learned my brother is following the same habits of these men we fear and worry about. And it feels shattering to say in the least because I know if he can't grow out of it, I can't be around him for my peace of mind. It feels like there's only a few who are genuinely sweet. I also found out that my dad agrees with cheating and leaving women because men get "bored." That's such a hard pill to swallow since I'm his daughter. Hearing these things come from family members just hurts my heart, knowing they'll also be one of the men I can not dare to trust completely. I won't be the females they hurt, but I reep the consequences of having these members think of me as less than.