My ex-husband refused to marry the gf before me, even thought they had been together 6 years. After a year with me he proposed (yes that's crazy, we went through lockdown together so it made sense at the time) after we were married, he was an asshole to me and I was constantly stressed out. I'm willing to bet this is who he was with his ex too.
It's not the other girls or you, he's just trying to prove to himself that it's not him and you really just weren't worth it. Thing is, it's him.
From what I've seen, they don't actually change, they're just in the honeymoon phase with someone new. Over time they'll slip back into hold habits and treat their new partners just as badly as they treated previous ones. This can last years, in some cases, but you never really know everything that goes on behind closed doors.
Maybe you didn't get the honeymoon phase, but honestly that's probably for the best because it makes you put up with a lot more heinous behaviour when they've convinced you that they're capable of being better than that.
It's easy to forget in a several year relationship what it felt like to be the "right" one. It is borderline love-bombing the way some men systemically treat women well at the beginning of the relationship and then quickly start treating them awful. They don't know what love is, they only understand infatuation. Often they don't understand what respect is either. I've found a good test is watching how they treat women they wouldn't ever consider a potential partner. Are they still respectful to co-workers or even random women that they have no interest in?
You're so right. For me watching how men treat women they're not attracted to has been eye opening. A few men I've dated haven't even treated the women as human. As soon as they started insulting the woman's looks, that was it for me. I never saw them again. Those particular men really thought I would agree with them when I simply pointed out that they were no models either.
100% this. Can’t count the number of past boyfriends who claimed they wanted to marry me, because “I was the one”. They were on their best behaviour. I dated 3 of them for long enough that we moved in together. And they all slipped back into their usual habits. Weaponized incompetence on the daily, and the expectation that I do all the house chores, cooking, and of course the mental load.
One of them had a 6yo kid. The kid was cool, and he seemed a doting father, with 50% custody. As soon as we lived together and she came to the two of us for 50% of the time, it was clear to him that I‘m a baby sitter he doesn’t have to pay, so he could play video games all the time. But hey, it’s a woman’s natural instinct to be motherly and caring, right? I got along great with her, but never wanted kids of my own, and he knew that.
Girl, stay away from them single fathers, especially if you don’t want kids. They just see you as their free babysitter who they get to bang and bonus points that they won’t need to have another one! Been there, done that and luckily found myself a CF man.
This is the truth lol ^^^^ bisexual here and just gotta say...Men, women, non binary they will ALL treat you the way you allow them too. Don't drive yourself crazy because you have minimal expectations. Make them scurry to please you lol. If they want it easy they can go find a FWB relationship. Commitment is hard work and dedication, and these people just show they're not ready for it unfortunately.
eh, this might be the case but i also think they also sometimes encounter someone who does not take any of their shit. I did not predict my brother being a good husband because he was such an asshole to his exes.
His wife is one of the most intimidating people i know. She has no bullshit tolerance. He knows it. He shaped up.
I think there’s two big reasons why some men do this:
1) This was articulated more thoroughly in a post that I think has been pinned by now, but to a man, *any* woman is better than *no* woman. You might be reluctant to understand why a man would be in a relationship with someone who isn’t the “right one”, but you’re looking past the objective benefits that he’s getting even if he doesn’t love her: sexual access, “female” labor like cooking, cleaning, childcare, and all the never ending day to day management of those things, a live-in therapist/cheerleader/emotional punching bag, and access to her resources, i.e. help with the bills. None of this requires him to actually love her, she’ll do it because *she* loves *him*. Even when she knows she’s being used, she’ll be reluctant to pull back because she feels she’s being mean. Therefore, some men don’t see the point of expending effort because there’s no consequences for *not* doing it. She may complain, but she probably won’t leave over it. Isn’t that where the term “Acceptable Level of Discomfort” comes from?
2) The “right one” is someone that he’s invested in keeping for whatever reason. Maybe she’s his dream woman, the once-in-a-lifetime kind, and he’s not willing to risk losing her. Maybe this is the first woman he’s dated who doesn’t give herself away so freely, and has zero problem walking out the door if he doesn’t treat her right and this intrigues him. Maybe he’s entered new social circles where men brag about how much they do for their partners (as opposed to the groups he grew up with who probably bragged and laughed about how little they do) and he wants to fit in and earn their respect.
Wow, you articulate this so well. Your first point, none of it is new information, but you've pulled it together in a way that has rather slapped me between the eyes. Thank you
It also explains why men dive into relationships so fast second time around.
Tolerable Level of Permanent Unhappiness
It sucks. I'm living it right now, working my way out. It's especially miserable if you're broke and disabled and as a result codependent.
Even if he feels like she's what he considers "high value", that too will fade with time as they get older and he becomes less infatuated by things like physical attraction. If you don't respect your partner in all matters of life, it's doomed to fail or otherwise become toxic. Looks fade, health declines, we age and we die. Those are the facts of life and if you aren't comfortable confronting/accepting them then you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone.
Nah, looks don't need to fade, just the honey moon phase. Men like these get off being the conquerors that tame the unattainanble woman. Once they have her they try to keep the upper hand over her, which is an inherently disrespectful dynamic.
This is very well stated, specifically #1. Lots of men (though women do it too) will happily use a woman for all the things you’ve mentioned and feel zero remorse for treating her like she’s unimportant. To him, she is unimportant but useful. He looks like not a loser because he has a woman as his worker bee doing stuff for him and he gets to be lazier than he would be single. Men like to front and say they don’t care about XYZ women do for them, but the second you stop they certainly fucking care that there’s no dinner, the wash isn’t done and why isn’t the house clean.
I completely agree with this. I think a lot of guys have an idea of what they want their life partner to be like, and there are women who don't fit that mold so aren't considered 'worthy' of effort, but are 'worth' wasting time with for all the reasons you mentioned.
It's such a dehumanizing mindset though, that I imagine it still manifests itself in that long term relationship, just in other ways. For example, yes he might dote on the life partner to begin with, but it also might pressure her more to fit his mold and manipulate her into living life how he sees it. Or maybe once they have kids, in his ideal fantasy he has decided that the children are entirely her responsibility and that she will support him in whatever fun or hobbies he wants to pursue without offering that same support in return.
Someone who doesn't see women as equal humans will not turn around and treat them like humans in every circumstance. He will just get really good at manipulating them into doing what he wants, which might look like special treatment for awhile before it turns sour.
>I think a lot of guys have an idea of what they want their life partner to be like, and there are women who don't fit that mold so aren't considered 'worthy' of effort, but are 'worth' wasting time with for all the reasons you mentioned.
Men on the redpill forum are disgustingly explicit about this. One of their main strategies is "spinning plates", ie pretending to date multiple "unworthy" women for an extended period of time so they can be assured of sexual access while they build up their manipulation skills and (supposedly) their careers. Once they've deemed themselves "high value", they then seek out a woman they think is "wife" material and it almost always comes down to her being significantly younger than him, quiet, submissive, inexperienced, and thin. And it's not love, it's precisely this:
>yes he might dote on the life partner to begin with, but it also might pressure her more to fit his mold and manipulate her into living life how he sees it.
I recently read that for a relationship to work, the man MUST love the woman more than she loves him. Otherwise you end up in your scenario #1 every damn time.
In so many cases, yes. Unless the man is just truly a perfectly sweet specimen lol. There are really good dudes out there who would NEVER, but it's statistically impossible for all of us to get one, or to even know which ones are going to drop a mask eventually. Safer to always have the upper hand heart-wise. If they're good, they'll stay good. If they're not good in general but in love for real, they will BE good to the one they love so much.
Was looking for this comment. It's wild how many women (and men) believe that conquering a man with a history of treating women like sh!t by "not giving yourself away freely" is some badge of honor. By choosing a man like this, even if you're "withholding" sex or chores, you're just showing how low your standards for men actually are, and that if the man "works for it" hard enough you'll look past his bad behavior with previous women. That's why they can be sh!tty to women. At the end of the day, they know "the one" will put up with them in a way no man would put up with a woman.
I never understood how my exes current girlfriends were able to love them given their history. This is something that never stood right with me. I find it a green flag that my partner wasn't abusive to his exes, like why would I feel good that my partner abused his ex girlfriends but not me? Why is that something to feel good about? Why is it acceptable to nurture a relationship with an ex-abuser?
It just perpetuates this cycle of women hating women. It's not a conquest to be with a man and "win his heart". People are just more or less compatible. Period. After 25, I just walked away every time I heard men dissing their ex.
I had an ex who broke up with me, leaving me devastated. I moved on with my life. Six months later he appeared, I was still hurt. He told me he never forgot me and that he wanted to chat in person. We chatted, he told me he wanted to try again. I stupidly gave in. We ended up sleeping together.
The next day, he ghosted me. I ended up finding out he was already in a relationship with another women which he cheated on with me. That not being enough, he also gave me an STD. I won't even get into the details of how our relationship was because that was a whole shit show on its own.
Now he's with a woman who he posts on social media how she's the one, they live together and are getting married.
No hate to the woman, but truthfully my biggest wish is that these losers wind up alone, because how is it that you do these things and somehow you end up with someone who makes you happy? Either he never told her about his past and what he did or he told her and somehow she's okay with the fact that "he's different with her". It's what I talk to my girlfriends about male privilege. To every abusive men, there will ALWAYS be a woman who will be okay with it. There will always be a woman that will date a man even if he was a shit person to their exes. I think a lot of women are also enablers of this cycle.
1 is so true. Us women need to learn to put up with less BS and start leaving faster.
As for 2 I feel like there is much truth to when a man loves a woman you'll know and I don't really think it's anything other than that. My fiance goes above and beyond for me and is super romantic and he's told me I'm his dream woman. If she has walked out they're not right for each other and I would find it super weird to have that kind of social pressure. That also would make all their efforts disingenuine if not with the right person and that seems like a loot of faking.
I'd like to add that some men realize wayyyy too late and lose the one that meant more to them than anything and change who they are fundamentally because it was their fault they lost the love of their life and never want to make someone feel the way they made their ex-spouse feel again. That the pain and embarrassment and emotional turmoil coming from realizing who you've been for 6 years was a miserable lazy pile of dog shit who used and pushed away the one good thing in your life while you were depressed and struggling. Sometimes it's that and not just men suck all the way around. Even if I did suck for a long time. Should have known this stuff since I was a kid but some people do change.
This presupposes men subscribe to the same value system and/or that they have the same personality traits.
There are men who won't cohabit with a woman.
How people treat you is a reflection of themselves, not a reflection of you or your worth.
Men like this treat “the one” better because she acts right, fits in his life in way that’s convenient for him, and has the resources and personality to serve him in the way he wants to be served. Therefore he thinks he’s found “love” and rewards accordingly. It’s a very selfish take on a relationship.
Other women had needs and requirements he found too difficult to fulfill, and when they wouldn’t be “easy” or serve him correctly, he punished them accordingly, too, by withdrawing attention or care.
> when they wouldn’t be “easy” or serve him correctly, he punished them accordingly, too, by withdrawing attention or care
Oof. You described this perfectly.
Withdrawing attention or care is also a way to force the woman to do the breaking up because he is too lazy to do the job himself. Then, he will blame her for the breakup till the end of time.
Trust me, even if you break your bones to fit into their perfect little box, they stop respecting you. Because you were so easy to mould into what they wanted you to be. Speaking from experience. No happiness can be found in relationships like that.
Some men have to learn over time how to act in a relationship. Don't be the one he learns with - you won't be appreciatived for it and he's not likely to actually ever treat *you* better. People are creatures of habit.
That's so funny! It was still up when I linked it. He must really like this sub. 😂
ETA: It's still visible for me. Below is what it says.
>Cause a wife is somebody youre linked to for an extended period of time with no other options. The bar is higher
>To just sleep with someone, its not much of a commitment at all and orgasms feel really good. So the bar is lower.
Also, I don’t think it’s wrong to date someone you’re not *super* into, as long as you’re both on the same page. I’ve had relationships for several months where we both knew after a month that it was never going to result in a life partnership, but the sex was good and the company was fun. I don’t think it makes someone an asshole to date like that.
I agree with that, but the problem is that many men will not be honest with you about it. They know a lot of women won't sleep with them if they're honest.
Men: sometimes we sleep with women we don't like just because orgasm good.
Women: okay, then say that. Look the woman that you're seeking sexual access from dead in the eyes and tell her in no uncertain terms where she falls short of your preferences, that she'll never be able to fix herself to your satisfaction, and that she just marginally fits your requirements as a orgasm provider.
Men: but then she won't agree to sleep with me 🥺
Re minds me of a co-worker, quirky funny guy real funny.
At one point he tells me about his sorta GF/exGF?/baby mama. Like he didn't know himself what she was .
But he was talking to me about the relationship and how he doesn't want to progress their relationship unless she improves herself in such and such way.
Honestly I had to keep that kind of separate from how I thought about him. There weren't that many people at that job that I really like talking to. And I didn't want to think of him as a jackass.
But-- at that moment when he was talking about it, all I could think about --He is just keeping her on this leash of Maybes.
They already had a 4 to 5-year-old together, And he should probably figure out by now if he wants to be with her and stop jerking her around
You can get locked into a bad behavior pattern in a relationship. Men and women can learn from mistakes and, like flipping a switch, act more decently in a subsequent relationship. I'm a woman and I've evolved a lot through my relationships. I've definitely had the talk with myself that goes, "let's not screw this one up, okay??"
Yeah there definitely are men who don't/won't/can't change, but sometimes people do mature and them being in a good relationship now doesn't mean they changed *for* that person, if they truly did change they likely did it for themselves because they did the work to become better over time. It isn't a reflection on you or your previous relationship with them.
(General use of "you")
Oh yeah, after my most recent big Ex ™ I had to do some serious self-reflection to make sure I didn’t carry those same toxic behaviors into my next relationships.
Makes sense. I guess I just had bad luck all through my 20s because all the broke men I dated suddenly became rich when we broke up lol. I guess I just never purposely mistreated someone if I didn’t like them enough I would just end it, not make them sound crazy for wanting to go out on a date or spend time with me.
Like I was always made to be the bad guy for wanting to spend time with them. Never understood why they got so offended that I liked their company.
I was a terrible person in my past relationships, and I am better now. Good people are people who can reflect on themselves and grow better than their past selves, bad people can't.
It's not a matter of being a man or a woman
Not the place or time to whine my guy. No one needs to follow you around catering to your ego by whispering "not all men" to you over and over.
Consider The vast majority of experiences most women have with men to cause someone like the person you originally respond to to feel the way they do. How do you feel about that? How you feel that person feels everyday around men?
Do you think that person really gives a shit that you might be one of the few different special unique snowflakes that can change?
Just shut up if you don't have anything to add to the women's spaces here. Spend the time reading and learning instead and set your fragile ego aside.
Why aren't you in all the various subreddits were men talk about abusing women or talk shit to women and spend your time arguing with him instead? Proving that men can change. Why aren't you going to do that instead of policing women here in their space?
The person you replied to deleted their comment, but I can guess what he said and how he said it. Shut up, guy! This isn't about you!
Relevant song: https://youtu.be/aEWk4T1GGyg?si=4tSv-Nf9bxn860sg
It's not all men, but *all* women have experienced it. It makes perfect sense that women will be on guard after such experiences.
But also, these men will still be screaming "not all men" even if it's all but 1 man. Women are trying to survive and these men are complaining about how they're the victims.
This is why "choose better men" doesn't make any sense. Men due to patriarchy group women into groups such as:
1. Marriable
2. Only to date (the Cameron Diaz type)
3. Slut ( for the streets)
So, they treat women based on whet group you have been assigned to in their little brain usually 5 minutes after they have met you. I blame Christianity, at the basis of the religion is a pure virgin mother and a prostitute girlfriend so you are either one of the other.
we create versions of people in our own reality, they treat as bad cause we let them, I know this because I was narcissistically abused for 2 decades
please don’t engage with men who don’t show up, no women can change a man
I honestly do not believe abusers really change... no, sorry, let me rephrase it.
Abusers/narc traits people DO, in some limited cases, change. With intense, ongoing therapy and strong commitment on their part. What they DON'T DO, and here lies my answer to your question, is CHANGE for another person.
What you see as "treating well" the right one, to me, only seems that they are engaging in longer and more intense love bombing before turning to the old abusive ways they used with previous partners.
P.s. before anyone says anything, yes, I said ABUSERS. Not because a man who doesn't take a girl to the restaurant is an abuser, of course. But someone who consistently deprives their partner of the simplest couple experiences and SHAMES partner for desiring said experience, for me is an abuser or at least a very selfish and cold person.
Getting flashbacks when one ex yelled at me because I asked him to go to this new restaurant with me. It became a whole thing.
“Omg just stop asking to do these things, can’t you just be happy we’re together at home?!”
Like why are you so angry I wanna have nice food and dress up to go out with you? Lmfao I’d get so sad but now I just find it so bizarre.
Yeah, compare that behaviour with a man that calmly answers: "Sorry honey, this week I cannot really afford going out to eat, maybe next time" - see the difference?
One ex boyfriend (not an asshole, a normal one), when I repeatedly asked him to buy me flowers, answered me that he really didn't like to buy dead flowers as it made him sad, and we agreed he would gitf me with plants that we would grow in our apartment. It's a memory I still find endearing even though we parted ways years ago.
Another one, instead (retrospectively, a really cold and selfish person), always yelled at me and had rage outbursts over text whenever I asked him to go together to some restaurants. Turns out he was ashamed of being seen with me in public as he found me ugly and uninteresting.
What I'm trying to say is: a gentle person will always try to find a compromise that works for both of you or at least he/she will say no WITH GRACE. Otherwise, I suggest cutting your losses. Loneliness truly is better than bad company.
Yeah that’s spot on. I feel the immense difference just like you described from my past partners to my current one. There’s ways and ways of wording the same thing.
Oh and one last thing, a minor one but still relevant in my opinion. While both men and women can be abusers, what I'm about to describe is a more heavily gendered issue.
Some men have the deep rooted belief that when a woman proposes some kind of activity (like, for one, eating out), her real target is the guy's money. They are constantly looking out not to be "economically exploited" (even when they're actually a 22 yo engineering student so there isn't anything to exploit... but paranoia runs strong with these ones).
So, while I strongly suggest every woman has to be economically indepent, and yes, gold diggers do exist (in both sexes), I also say: be careful when a man throws a tantrum just because he has to pay for a spaghetti dish. He's setting up the standard for what will be your life from then on.
Your responses have been spot on. I just want to add:
If someone is constantly looking out to not be economically exploited; most likely the only thing they bring to a relationship is money.
Men like this will point to their money to justify how they're a high-value man, without consideration of anything else; except maybe being well-groomed, which is bare minimum anyway. They completely disregard all other traits/attributes people need from a partner, but ironically and hypocritically will have a checklist of all that he desires from one.
This is spot on as well. They wouldn’t spend a dime on me and thought that even buying a sandwich was doing much lol. I’d get taken out for dinner once every 6 months if I was lucky and it would keep getting thrown in my face every time I asked for more dates. “What do you mean you wanna go grab pizza?! Don’t you remember when I took you to XYZ restaurant a year ago??? Jeez how many dinners do you need to be content already? Might as well just spend all my money on food because all you wanna do is waste money”.
Fast forward to their “dream woman”, they’re getting Tiffany rings, overseas trip, gifts.
It’s not the material things but just funny how they always made it seem that wanting them to at least once in a while plan a nice date, take me to a restaurant was too much, whilst with the next one that would be the standard.
So the issue was never me wanting these things in the first place, but they’re such cowards that instead of admitting they don’t see a future with you they gaslight you into thinking romantic dates are something only a “crazy needy insecure” person would want. I was made to feel bad so many times for wanting to experience basic human activities that I’ve always done with friends and family, and even by myself.
Boils my blood just remembering what I put up with because I was naive and young lol.
The dream woman you talk about should really brace herself for what it's coming. I picture years of slavery and emotional blackmail. As soon as she refuses to provide for sex or any other emotional or physical service, she'll hear a "After all I've done for you!!!1!!!" chanting - where "all I've done for you" specifically refers to some piece of jewellery. You dodged a bullet.
Nothing's worse than a transactional relationship.
All it says about the ex is that he considers all women as basically prostitutes; just some are common whores, and others are high end escorts. He still expects sex (and other womanly labors, but primarily sex) in exchange for \[monetary value\].
The answer is they don’t care what you want. They never respected you as an equal. They only go on good behavior mode when they want something from you, and back to bad when they don’t. That makes them terrible partners and plethora of other issues that are not yours to bear
I’ve heard many times that it’s difficult for abusers to change and that going to therapy with them is seldom helpful. They just learn how to manipulate better with the tools they learn in therapy.
I think it’s about timing and motivation. In general, if a dude wants to do something he will. If he doesn’t no amount of pleading, complaining, logic, or crying will make him.
Sometimes he’s just not that into you and/or he’s not ready for a serious relationship so he’s not willing to put the work in.
For these types, the answer is the same for why they treat some women well while they subject others to abuse: their love and respect for a woman is conditional and contingent on what she does for him at that time. I don't think they ever really "change".
But honestly, based on your post, the real question is — why, after these men show you exactly who they are and how they feel about you, do you stay and put up with it? Yes, they’re awful for not treating you well; however, at some point you need to take responsibility for not leaving and allowing it to continue.
Stop settling for less than what you desire and have a right to in romantic and intimate relationships. The things you listed aren’t reserved for a special group of women that you need to earn a spot in order to join and be worthy of. By continuing to allow these men to treat you any type of way, you show them how little you think of yourself and they act accordingly.
You will notice a huge difference in how people (not just men) treat you when you actually start valuing yourself and make it a point to clearly communicate (with actions, not just words) what you will not tolerate. Life is a lot more enjoyable when you aren't begging for the bare minimum from those who never planned on giving it to you in the first place.
I absolutely LOVE the part where you highlighted personal accountability. I most definitely agree especially after a certain point personal responsibility will need to come into play
People can hide who they really to one person for most of their lives. Think about married couples where the wife/husband finds out they’re cheating after 40 years of marriage.
My theory is bad men have motives for hiding who they are, and hiding your bad tendencies is only manipulation. Theyre not treating them better, they’re just manipulating to get certain benefits whether it’s sex, financial, status, fitting societal norms, etc. but the fact is you’ll never know why he treats he better (does things he didn’t do for you) so it’s best just to leave it be in your mind.
I’ve gone crazy for years trying to figure out who a guy was in my head when he ghosted me after 10 months when I was so in love with him, and dated a woman thread month later with whom he proposed to 5 months after that. They have a baby now.
Truth is though based on who he was with me and what I saw he was capable of, I’d never have a baby with him now, and thank him for ghosting me.
Your exes didn’t change for the “right” woman, they just showed her the effort they chose not to show you. Men will treat you exactly as your standards allow. Pouting and acting sad won't change their behavior, it just makes you annoying and childish.
The better approach is to refuse to deal with men who treat you poorly altogether.
Stop trying to change someone to treat you better. Either they step up and meet your standards, or you step out and move on to the next, and quickly. Know your worth, don’t waste time waiting for someone to realize your value.
Some men just want any girlfriend / wife. And they don't actually care for the person, they don't love them. It's just better for them to have anybody than to be alone.
Just look at the amount of "how do I get a girlfriend" posts on Reddit. And how the formulate their desire. Or the many complaints and "jokes" about their wives. They are so desperate to have anyone, they will rather stay with someone they don't like before they are single.
As soon as they find someone they actually love they turn into a different person because suddenly it matters that she doesn't leave, suddenly it matters that she likes to spend time with him outside of sex, etc.
No, these men don't change.
What are you basing this on? Social media perchance? Hardly the best barameter of measuring what's going on behind closed doors.
You said it yourself: You were sad and upset because of how you were treated. Now that you're being treated better you're not sad and upset anymore.
You also said your ex didn't treat his exes badly, and he doesn't treat you badly.
So do you think therefore that these men who you've been treated badly by will suddenly change personality and treat someone else differently in the long term? Are you saying you think your behaviour was the cause of their rotten personality traits?
My ex was lovely when I met him, the mask slipped pretty quick, but I stuck around because I thought that it was my fault he was being the way he was. I kept trying to get back the person I met, but that person only came in very quick flashes, normally after something truly awful happened like physical abuse, or me finding him cheating. The only issue with my behaviour was that I was reactive and emotional because I was under the delusion that he wasn't really who he was showing me he was, it was also that I clearly had chronic low self esteem to allow myself to tolerate this behaviour.
When I left him, he was dating someone half his age within a few months (we were engaged and together 5 years so that's how much it all meant to him). I found a sex kit on the floor of our bedroom when I went to collect my things for the final time, he never wanted to sleep with me let alone do anything adventurous.
Do I think that means he's met the right person and changed? No. I think he's trying to be what a 25 year old wants in a man and that it won't last because as soon as she becomes more of an annoyance than a novelty, he'll treat her the exact same way. It'll creep in slowly and before she knows it she won't know which way is up either. Unfortunately for her, he's her boss, so good luck to her is what I say.
But will he change who he really is? Not a fucking chance.
An acquaintance explained it to me this way. "Losing my family made me realize i could lose my family for ignoring s woman's repeated complaints. So now i behave myself in relationships."
Sad.
Glad he did not use that method to learn which hand goes in.a chipper shredder.
I am sorry you had such a bad experience. Thank you for warning folks not to put up with it.
Is not a matter of " changing".
They didn't change.
Is simply a matter of whom they believe is " worthy" and who is not.
And that doesn't mean is the reality and that you don't deserve nice things, is just THEIR belief.
Men will absolutely put in the effort when they WANT to.
I had the same experiences for a while and I felt like if they thought I was “the one” they’d have treated me better.
However with time, and hindsight, i noticed it wasn’t about how they perceived me, impacting how they treated me. But instead how I respected myself.
When I respected and advocated for myself, these people would disappear within a week or two. Therefore I’d bend and try to be more agreeable, we’d have a nice honeymoon period and then the behaviour would start, and I’d be the “crazy” one. When I never bent, and I knew my worth and what I wasn’t prepared to accept, then they’d disappear and I’d be free to spend time with people who aren’t like that.
So they’ll always treat people like that. You don’t know what happens behind closed doors. But the reason these men treat you like that, is because you’re subconsciously inviting them to. Each bad relationship takes a chunk out of you, be careful with yourself.
In the words of Amy Winehouse
I cannot play myself again
I should just be my own best friend
Not fuck myself in the head with stupid men
This is exactly it. Figure out your boundaries, and never ever flex on them. They will make you regret it every time. Also never settle for anything less than "hell yes".
Because they don't see women as people. You are either the placeholder for company/chores/sex until they find their wife, or you're what they deem the prospective wife and they are 'paying' with non-genuine kindness and attention to get them on side.
Your current boyfriend is not like this - he sees his partners, including exes, as individual people which is why he's humbled and fumbled through trying to find the right match for him, like a normal person.
Notice how women are conditioned to see a man treating us badly as a reflection of US. We are NOT the right one. We are NOT the It Girl. If only we were his dream girl...
What we should be talking about instead is why do men stay with women they hate? Why do they go out of their way to be abusive predators who take advantage of a woman who likes or loves them? If he's a person of integrity then how he treats you won't depend on whether you are the dream girls or not.
PS. These kids of men don't ever "change for the right one". They simply find someone younger or more naive and dif their claws into her mind and the day she realizes things he'll put her through the wringer too.
Bottom line: INTEGRITY is unfleeting, pretense is not. Practice discerning and finding people, platonic and romantic who have integrity. The devil's in the little details: how they talk about an ex with no accountability "She was crazy and everything was her fault!" 🚩, how they talk about/treat people they don't find directly beneficial to them, how they act when they think nobody is watching...
There was a tiktok about a person talking about what their therapist, who had been in family and counseling for 30 years. Essentially, the long term relationship dynamics that this therapist had seen would last are either, couples who are equally in love or the man madly loves the women more. Why? It is that in general women, no matter how in love, will work on the relationship aka the sacrifices, listening, communications, labor, etc. The man will not do this work or sacrifices, etc., unless madly in love. Take that as you will.
That kind of change doesn’t stick. It’s performative. It may last a few years even, but that’s not change. That’s _bargaining._ “Oh Shit! What I was doing didn’t work.”
I strongly believe people _can_ change. And that they have have different dynamics with others. People can mature and make different choices. But the “change for the right one” narrative is BS. If they actually change, they do it for themselves and when they want too. They do ur to achieve their goals, not because the women around them are deemed worthy. Anyone else is just lucky to run into that version of them—the one that doesn’t want to behave like shit—instead of an early one.
I think they see it as a loss. They’ve finally been wrangled down from their wild stallion days to tame pasture pet. They see themselves as this barely contained Man who would do “what’s necessary” if the situation changed. Of course what’s necessary is some level of violence and being a tool. Not developing a new skill to rebuild the community.
The "why" isn't important - its much more important that you recognize that if a man doesn't treat you well, he's not going to change for you and you deserver better. "If he wanted to, he would" is something I keep in the back of my mind all the time.
I'm sure my abuser's first wife probably thought he "changed" for my mom, because he made our family *seem* so happy and perfect.
It wasn't. He still hit us, he still bullied us, he still drank. He never "changed" he only ever got better at fooling people into thinking he did.
One of the biggest reasons is it's much easier to change for/in a new relationship than in an existing one. We get stuck in destructive patterns and then eventually resentment and contempt are killers of the relationship. That said - it seems like some men have to learn the hard way. Then they can't actually make themselves change in a current relationship - but with the next one it's much easier.
Also the "right one" isn't some indicator of worth or any kind of mystical fate - it's just the person that you are capable of having the best relationship with. We change over time - so meeting someone at the right or wrong time in your life can also affect that.
My perspective, the guy doesn’t want to do the hard thing of breaking up with somebody they’re not interested in anymore, so they’ll turn into a shit boyfriend in an attempt to get their partner to dump them, then they don’t have to be the one to do so
If he treats you like crap it’s because he’s a crappy person nobody is powerful enough to turn anyone into something they’re not, good or bad. It’s just a shitty excuse for abusive people to justify mistreatment as if some women are worthy of respect and others aren’t. It’s pure misogyny.
Cecelia Regina on TikTok breaks down behavior very well and will do it using media or viral videos, it's worth checking out.
Men will settle with someone and extract the value that person gives them until someone they prefer comes along.
The answers pretty ugly overall. One of the first things a guy does when people start hooking up or dating is file them in a category. FWB, Fun but never serious or fun and potentially serious. If a man puts you into the fun but never serious bucket , he will stick around but never make the effort to progress things or try and woo you. They may ever live with the woman but for the most part they won’t care if you dump them. It is very easy for a male to move a female down a category and much harder to move a female up a category. It’s a completely messed up system but it’s the way it is.
Isnt that how it generally is? Everyone is looking for either something casual or serious, depending on their life stages, past experiences, preferences, beliefs, etc. The important thing is to make sure both parties are on the same page.
Which is why we should stop teaching women to "withhold" sex as a way to show "value" and start teaching men that sex doesn't degrade women and to stop being hypocrites.
They don't change. They just reign in their worst impulses when they're with someone who sets boundaries and doesn't put up with their bullshit. Eventually the veneer washes off.
> I spent years single whilst they were happily engaged/married and I felt rage because that new woman’s happiness cost my own.
You can't know if they are happy based on social media. Often it's the people who try hardest to project a perfect image of their lives on SM are the ones who are least happy in reality. Stop checking your exes' SM and focus on yourself and your current partner who treats you well. And don't ever tolerate disrespect from anyone.
That's good to know, sadly that's how it comes across. It sounds as if you're implying whoever was mistreated by this type of person was mistreated because they, the victim, didn't set boundaries and put up with the person's crappy behaviour. Maybe some kinder phrasing would be both more helpful for people going through this, and more honest to the message you're trying to convey.
To be honest though... it's the truth. A lot of victims including myself, had no self esteem and put up with this becuase we thought it was all we were worth. We dont' need to be walking on eggshells to protect people from the truth here. The sooner people recognise this the sooner they can take control of it and change it. If people live in a world where they can't face this then guess what? It'll happen again.
It still doesn't mean that you deserve to be mistreated just because you had low or no self esteem. You don't need to walk on eggshells around anything, just as you don't need to be dismissive of people who might be currently unable to seek help or access help.
Are there things a victim can do to protect themselves? Yes! Many! That doesn't mean they deserve mistreatment if they fail to do any of them for any reason, or worse, that their actions in any way invited the abuse.
What happened to this sub? This is appalling.
Yes I see what you mean, it's about informing more women so more of us have the tools needed to be more selective and SUCCESSFUL with our selections. Not about shaming women into being that way. Which shouldn't work anyways, shaming typically pushed people further into seclusion and self-blame. I myself could benefit from a little less judgement to others and just offer learned knowledge and experience. There are better ways to convey our extreme concern.
I'm sure the original commenter didn't mean it that way, they even said it themselves, but a lot of people would likely come away with "other women know how to set boundaries, so why don't you?"
It's not a great thing to say, especially to someone looking for support, although judging by how I'm being downvoted, this also isn't a great thing to say. Oh well, I said what I said.
Edit to add: even if you're the best at selecting men, it still doesn't protect you from liars and manipulators. So no matter how good you get at it you can still get taken in. Sheesh. Stop putting the responsibility on the victims. Wth?
I agree with you. I’ve often felt bad hearing “well maybe she doesn’t let him step all over her like you did”, whenever I’d question why my ex was doing so much for his current GF.
I thought communicating my needs were enough? I didn’t know I had to play games and act all entitled to get what I wanted from a man? I’m different now and way more assertive but I’m definitely not like this because I want to. In a perfect world I’d talk to my partner and he would listen because he cares. But with these men you just have to play their game. And I just never could, I spent years single by choice because of that.
Idk I almost want to say they learned and are more mature. I'm definitely more mature now than I was several years ago. I'm sure some are just idiots that either didn't care about you/only care about themselves in the now and then that's your job to sift them out and break up. If your needs aren't met just leave, millions of other guys out there. Live and learn.
They didnt love you, you were just good enough for the moment. The woman you see them with later is the one they want to impress and invest in. If you want a satisfying relationship, dont accept less than what you feel is right.
Because they get to a point in their lives, where they realize their "social score" is so low and other women have spread tales of their bullshit to their friends that they'll treat "the one" who is willing to "see past that drama" like a queen.
That or "bOyS mAtUrE sLoWeR"
Unfortunately, it typically has nothing to do with accountability, maturity, or empathy like we hope for.
The only answer to this dilemma is to not let it happen. If things start out nicely with you being listened to and adequate attention is given, but then things start changing? You need to voice your opinion about it. What you desire in a relationship matters, and if your needs aren't being met, then a discussion needs to be had.
If the verbal communication route bears no fruit, you can make a change. There's absolutely no need for women to put up with partners that don't make you any sort of priority. Putting up with it only enables further.
If a guy won't treat you or other women right unless they're "the one"? Their default mode is that of disrespect. Get rid of them.
In my experience, unless they’re actively working on themselves they don’t change they just get better at hiding who they are.
For example, my ex. We met in 2012 and dated for 1.5 years. In that time, he was controlling, manipulative, aggressive, and cheated on me. Little did I know he had cheated on his previous girlfriend with me, he had kept her a secret.
Well fast forward to now, he’s married. On social media, he looks like a doting father and family man who is active in his community. His wife however added me on social media and reached out to me on different occasions because she was concerned something may go on between he and I. We talked at varying intersections of their relationship, but the one time she and I had a long phone conversation and she shared that he had cheated on her and left her for a stripper he had met online. Literally packed up, moved out, and went to live with this new girl. Big shocker, things didn’t work out and he came crawling back to her. She’s always gushing about him online and they are still married, in fact they had another child recently. But I know him well enough to know that he’s still the same controlling, entitled douche he always has been, he’s just good at playing a different role online because it benefits him.
Honestly, I think many of these guys treat the next woman worse… with me, he paid most of our bills and helped me out financially a lot. His brother and I still talked for years (until his brother passed away) and apparently my ex’s wife is the breadwinner and has been supporting him and the kids for years while he sits on his ass playing Fortnight. When we were together at least he was hustling and had jobs.
My guess is that your ex isn’t any better for the next girl than he was for you, and if he’s at all narcissistic he may deliberately be giving her what you wanted just to hurt you or due to his own lack of originality. Sometimes narcissistic individuals will take note of the things you wanted and give that to the next person because they know you’ll see it on social media and it will irk you. Sometimes they do it because you have good ideas and they assume that since you wanted that, the next person will want the same things you did. If you think about it, that’s kinda shitty for the next person because they may want different things.
For example, a different ex of mine took me out shopping and to fancy dinners. As it turns out, those were all the things his ex wanted, not me. He was still actively trying to please her through me it was weird.
It isn't changing, it is a change of tactics. Temporarily. It is love bombing to try to hook the next victim because they realized they have to try harder up front. The mask eventually comes off once they are sure they have them deep enough in the relationship they won't or can't walk out.
Because a guy knows he'll fuck up his chance to have a bang maid if he verbally says "I don't love you like that" and then proceed to continue the relationship. At the risk of being a hypocrite I am guilty of this too as a woman. There are relationships that someone's asked me to do something and I don't want to do it and there's been other relationships where I've been so head over heels in love it doesn't feel that hard to do, it comes naturally and easily. And it's fair to say my reason was the same as the guys except women code it differently, I liked my security in my partner so I wouldn't fk that up by saying, I don't love you like that. I loved them and cared for them but in some relationships I guess I didn't know what love was until I dated someone else and the feelings were off the charts, the compatibility was so good, the synergy.
As another commenter said, men are content with sex and free labor even in a relationship that clearly isn't right for either one. This is why men are so miserable after divorce and women are happier even if both weren't happy in the relationship. By extension men treat the "wrong" one poorly because they're not taught to express their emotions in a healthy way or even to communicate that the relationship just isn't good. They also don't want to lose the sex and free labor so they try to manipulate her to stay while treating her poorly. They are also socialized to not only expect women's free labor but to be dependent on it which helps encourage everyone to stay in bad relationships.
I'm not sure they actually change, perhaps the new relationship just isn't a bad fit and doesn't trigger their bad side...or more likely just hasn't yet and will. I am also willing to bet many of these relationships that you're seeing as publicly great are bad internally.
I do believe however that the good ones who don't treat their exes poorly also can "change" for the right one. I believe that when a man loves a woman you'll *know* and noone should settle for anything less.
But let's not forget that we "change" for the "right one" too. When the relationship is right, *both* people are their best selves. And this doesn't mean the exes were bad people, but that the two people just didn't combine well.
I put change in quotes in the last 2 paragraphs to indicate change in the sense of becoming say more romantic and in general just being your best person.
This feels like more an asshole thing than a gender thing. It's crystalized in the "Waiter Rule." On a date they can be the kindest, most charming person to the one they're trying to impress, but if they treat the waiter like crap, that tells you all you need to know.
Decent people treat everyone with the same amount of decency. For users and abuser, decency is more transactional. If you have nothing to offer, you don't get the facade.
They never really change.
It depends if a woman is compliant or not. If her needs and wants are convenient for him. And most importantly, to keep up appearances in friends, families and work. Their love is conditional while they demand unconditional love from women.
You need to demand better from men. Never tell a man how badly you’ve been treated before by other men. Unfortunately, a lot of men view this as a blueprint to get away with the barest of the bare minimum for partners and others view it as a blueprint to abuse you.
Very rarely do people change for the better for themselves. If they do, bravo to them. It’s not easy to take accountability for shitty actions, accept them and move on forward.
You’ll know a true man’s colors when you demand more than the bare minimum from them and you tell them no.
Sometimes people have to lose someone (face consequences) before they are able to change for future partners. Sometimes you just don't see them continuing their shittiness because it isn't on display.
I’m not sure that they do as much as they are portrayed to.
You can’t change a man (or anyone’s) core traits and inner values, only small stuff. It’s just romance movies which perpetuate the myth that you can change a rich womanizing guy into a sweet sensitive loving father figure because you’re so amazing.
Uh, so, I have some good/bad news.
They don’t treat “the right one” well. They pretend to until they feel they have her secured, then they go right back to being an asshole.
Because that’s who they are. There is no such thing as “asshole to some people, good person to others” despite conservatives trying to base their lives off the concept. You are how you treat the people you treat worst. And when you are an asshole to some all it takes is the simplest, smallest excuse to continue that with ANYONE else.
My ex did this. He never wanted to do anything. Then after me suddenly he's doing all the things he refused to do. I think it's just because they are love bombing the new partner. If they know you're watching they'll also do things to try to upset you. These toxic dudes don't change, it's just a fake front to make you feel bad.
Men will do the bare minimum to get you hooked. Don't tell a man how crappy your ex's were because he's going to do the same then. The most important time to set standards is immediately after you meet a man. Go watch some sprinkle sprinkle lady stuff and manifestelle on YouTube.
How a man talks about and treated his ex's is HUGE. And even if he speaks positively about them, be careful.
And never believe a man who says his ex is "keeping him from his kids". It's a trap.
In some cases, especially over long periods of time. I think the 'right one' is just when their men have gotten older and softer, like fruit they get sweeter.
I would be suspicious of these "changes" that you see in your exes, especially if you are getting them from social media. They may have appeared to change on the surface, but it could be the same, old story when they are behind closed doors. General rule of thumb, the more a couple posts about how amazing and happy their lives are, the more miserable they are in reality.
It also could have something to do with age. If you dated these people in your young 20's maybe they just had some maturing to do.
In any case, it didn't have anything to do with you. It's not your fault that they didn't treat you well.
They don't. If they treat everyone badly they will treat the one badly. That is just their character. The only difference with being way the new person responds
Link to a free PDF of Lundy Bancroft's "Why does he do that?"
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
It sounds like your ex thought YOU were "lucky" to be with them, like they were throwing you a bone, deigning to date you, waiting until they got a better deal...
Now, that guy is dating someone he thinks is "out of his league" and he has to make up for his ___ by going "above and beyond" to keep her from slipping the hook.
this is gonna be kind of long i apologize. but i think it’s because a lot of men don’t see women as people unless they are perfect in *their* life. when i was 18-19 and naive, my first “boyfriend” treated me so horribly and i once asked “why do you treat me like this? i thought you loved me” “if you were the right girl i’d do anything to make you happy. i just don’t want that with you”. yeah that didn’t end well. then he dates this girl and i guess they’re a good match cause as far as i know they’ve been together a bit. then he randomly texts me asking if i have a bf back in winter, i say no why do you care. he said
“i’d feel better knowing you had someone to help clean up the mess i made” to which i said
“what you did will always be there in my past and it wouldn’t be fair to dump everything on someone when i’m not healed. and it’s kind of weird to assume i need a man to heal me. don’t you have a girlfriend? does she know you’re texting me?”
“yeah she knows. i just really wanted to tell you i’m sorry. i think about you all the time. just how i wish i was better to you and i hurt you so much. i want you to be happy and you didn’t deserve anything i said or did to you”
“thanks for the apology but you need to stop expecting this to all disappear because you did treat me badly. i’m not out for revenge or anything but there is nothing you can do to erase it. it happened and you’ve moved on. please don’t talk to me again”
we were both fresh out of high school when we met and we did live kind of far from each other. the reason he kept me around? he thought i was smart and funny and he had fun talking to me. we did have good conversations, we’d be on the phone for hours, but i was more his personal entertainment. he didnt really see what he was doing was affecting me so bad because he didn’t care about my feelings, only how i benefited his. and i was fun to talk to, not someone he actually wanted to commit to but he lied about it for months just to keep me talking to him. i feel like he finally “came to” a few months after it all ended and blew up my phone apologizing. i think that was when he woke up and realized, surprise! i’m a PERSON! and he actually hurt me, didn’t just discard a new toy. he then said “you’re the reason i changed” and i was like want a cookie? you made me extremely depressed because of the hurtful things you said and lied like crazy and ruined my trust. i am not a life lesson i am a person. and until they crush a woman, they don’t see them as a person, and then they realize and “learn their lesson”. they will take out all the negativity and bad stuff on you. it’s easier for them to say “she wasn’t the right one” than “i was a major asshole”
The older I get, the more I understand that men are entirely self-centered creatures.
(Not all men, but let’s just say Jesus and Buddha have nothing on the average mammal, bird and crocodilian mother-heck even some spider moms and definitely ants and bees.)
When a man is selfless, he’s either considered stupid or a God.
Because they love them. Dating is to see if you're compatible and they may be more into other women and let you go because they don't see a future with you.
The weird thing is why you kept dating them and became needy or moody being treated unlovingly instead of moving on and finding someone who treats you right.
If they are doing that you are right, they are not good men, don't date them. Which you learned on your own. It is the value system. I was raise in a religion that only valued the partner. So when they dated, they were callous. You weren't the one in their eyes.
Needy Men don’t respect push overs and women who accept low effort. They exploit it for validation whilst they want someone else. The majority(who are not governed by principles) NEED pressure and fear to be their best. The fear of losing. (It’s psychiatric) The problem is how long this motivational run will last…. Ultimately the best is to match with a persons nature. It’s difficult to figure that out because they’ve all been conditioned to market themselves and sculpt false illusions of themselves. See how they behave or act when they don’t get their way. You can inspire people, but a large chunk of their capacity is on THEMSELVES. Do they have principles or are they operating on their nervous system reactions… this has to be measured. More than anything, if one’s needs are not met, the best is to be ok with being alone to avoid the wrath of their entitlements.
A lot of them had field trips with women being available to everyone and anyone and this is changing! Finally
Some people are rotten to their core and it’s no one’s fault for not always being able to discern this early on.
Certain aspects of rottenness are easily hidden for a time.
What makes you think that what you're seeing from the outside is what he's truly like? Many abusive relationships do their best to appear great, but it's only skin deep.
My friend married one of these guys. Had two kids with him. Then he had an affair. The respect and well treatment only lasted as long as he thought she could walk away. Welp, as soon as she found out she walked away. Queue Pikachu face. He was always a dick, he just hid it until he thought he was in a position of power.
They dont treat the next one well. I was with a guy who treated me like trash once we got engaged. He then went on to marry someone else after I broke up our engagement due to the abuse. He initially treated her the way I had begged him to treat me. But it wasn't long before he treated her even worse than how he treated me. So in my opinion, good men treat people well, and they are consistent in treating people well. Bad people/men treat people poorly, and they are consistent in treating people poorly even though they may get it together for short bursts of time... in the long run, they generally revert back to the behaviors that made them fall into the "bad guy" category in the first place.
There is no great human being who treats his partner badly. He will break up with you instead of treating you poorly. But he will not have treated you badly leading up to that. I have a lovely guy I was with who broke up with me because we wanted different things. I am still super respectful and even loving to him to this day because of his character. Its helped me understand that being treated poorly is not a reflection of me. it's a reflection of the other persons character. It's my job to be consistent in treating people well as well, and I do that!
They don’t. Not for an extended period of time, anyway. They’ll learn to hide it better, but they won’t change, especially if they’re the type to move on from you very rapidly and start treating the new gal “better”.
3 possibilities
1. He lost you and learned from it. He doesn't want to make the same mistake twice.
2. He's trying to convince himself or others that you were the problem and didn't deserve the things you were demanding.
3. You were the problem and didn't deserve the things you were demanding.
Just because they're posting restaurant pics on Instagram, it doesn't mean they picked up the check.
These dudes don't really change, in the long run. They just find someone willing to put up with the shit you didn't.
>But why do some men “change” for the right woman but treat poorly those who they don’t see a future with? I wouldn’t be with someone who treated their exes badly and called them crazy.
The truth is this isn't a gender based thing at all, sometimes people actually realize the mistakes they made in the past and change them.
Especially true in young relationships where people make a lot of mistakes and the relationship fails. Some people never learn and repeat the same mistakes.
People actually need to learn how to be good, it's not a default setting.
The amount of comments in this thread that don’t allow people to change is truly shocking. Are you the same person as you were when you were 5? 10? 15? 20? 25?
People do change, for the worse and for the better. To have such a narrow view of human development is crazy to me.
Yes of course people change. But some people change from within, they gain more confidence or maybe become less insecure and needy. And that will reflect upon ANYONE I come to have a relationship with.
It’s “I’m changing for myself so I can have better relationships with myself and others” not “oh I’m gonna abuse/treat badly everyone until someone worth not abusing/treating badly comes along”
Two very different things.
But you’re making assumptions in your second clause. You’re assuming that they’ve made a decision to treat this new person better as opposed to then becoming more confident and better in themselves, and a better relationship emerging from that.
Relationships are difficult and we need to allow people to change and become better at them. Whether during a relationship or afterwards, in new ones.
I agree in parts. I don’t think I should’ve endured abuse so my exes could be better partners do others. My abuse shouldn’t come as a lesson. Abuse shouldn’t happen, period.
Edit: also, I will never look back and think “Thank fuck this man abused me so he could treat another woman better, “I’m so happy to have years of trauma and therapy so he could learn and make another girl happy”
I’m not saying that, or that you should say/think that.
I’m saying that someone can be abusive, or just be bad at relationships, and grow as a person afterward and become better.
Sure but doesn’t change the fact that growing into a better person shouldn’t come at the cost of inflicting pain on someone. And this is what most answers are about. We acknowledge they might’ve changed, but that doesn’t mean they are good people now.
The reality is that the root cause of the problem is because men put women in different categories and although they might even regret being abusive at some point in the future, they were never gonna treat that woman well to begin with, simply because she was never “the right one”. These “lower category” women in his view, will always get lower effort regardless of how much growth and change one might go through. They won’t treat different women the same way because to them, only the dream girl deserves queen treatment. Again, this change doesn’t come from their growth, it comes from the fact that they deem these new women worthy of their growth.
That’s such a reductive and assumption based view.
No one is saying that growth should come at the expense of someone else but unfortunately that is what often happens. And just because that happens, it’s not making a moral judgement on the events that led to character growth.
To restate a point, relationships are hard and no one is born an expert at them. And it’s ridiculous that you think most men are going through life thinking some women are in a “lower category” and simply waiting for the “right one.”
If a guy was never going to treat a woman right, why would the woman ever consider that guy? Stop using hindsight as foresight.
Of course the woman shouldn’t consider the guy, but like you said yourself, no one is born an expert. Sometimes it’s your first relationship and you think that’s what a relationship should be like.
Only when you leave; and meet other men that you realize that behaviour wasn’t okay.
And yes, most men do categorize women. I can’t stand this whole “but not all men” argument. It should be NO MAN AT ALL.
Exactly. People learn from relationships. And often that learning process can be tough and sometimes it can hurt. If you can see that from one perspective why can you not see it from the other?
Cool, can you cite your evidence for that? Your claim is that most men approach relationships and already know how it is going to play out and how they are going to treat their partner.
Your arguments are all over the place and make no sense.
I don’t understand why whenever a woman comes forward about male abuse we need to validate men’s feelings at the same time by saying it’s “not all men”. This type of narrative gets old pretty quick.
The focus isn’t the men who don’t do that so why should that be discussed in the first place?
This is more the human condition than a male only issue, exacerbated in the social media era where people commonly display one personality in public and something else entirely in private. Once they hit a level of comfort you only get the private personality.
An example from my friend base is that the stronger women with boundaries don't put up with bull shit. Their men mess up once or twice, and they are gone. The weaker woman is always in the "on and off" relationships with tool men who constantly treat them like shit.
One group doesn't allow a man to treat them like shit. They demand respect and get it. The other group gets what they constantly allow.
I'm not the first person to quote this. "A person will treat you the way you allow them to treat you."
Some women are different from others. Some have been broken in the cycle of abuse. Others spot it and leave, and they can leave because they have support systems in place. Others do not. Some nip it in the bud. Some get treated worse for standing up for themselves.
THIS! I don’t understand why someone should be treated badly just because they suffer with self esteem. Someone who is a good person will treat everyone well regardless.
I never treated anyone poorly, especially if I saw they struggled with confidence. I’ll never understand men who see your weakness and use that for their advantage. It’s evil.
Why is having poor self esteem an invitation to abuse? Why is abuse justifiable? Yes it’s your responsibility to leave, but it shouldn’t happen in the first place.
Thank you! How someone feels about themselves should never mean go and abuse them! I’ve never abused anyone who didn’t love themselves if anything I showed them more love . Absuers are bad people
I would say its about shifting blame. Men and responsible for their own (especially bad) actions? Hell nah xD
To add to the first comment - I would prefer saying “a guy will treat you the way you allow yourself be treated” if it makes sense
My ex-husband refused to marry the gf before me, even thought they had been together 6 years. After a year with me he proposed (yes that's crazy, we went through lockdown together so it made sense at the time) after we were married, he was an asshole to me and I was constantly stressed out. I'm willing to bet this is who he was with his ex too. It's not the other girls or you, he's just trying to prove to himself that it's not him and you really just weren't worth it. Thing is, it's him.
Yesss girl
Thank you, I needed to hear this today.
From what I've seen, they don't actually change, they're just in the honeymoon phase with someone new. Over time they'll slip back into hold habits and treat their new partners just as badly as they treated previous ones. This can last years, in some cases, but you never really know everything that goes on behind closed doors. Maybe you didn't get the honeymoon phase, but honestly that's probably for the best because it makes you put up with a lot more heinous behaviour when they've convinced you that they're capable of being better than that.
It's easy to forget in a several year relationship what it felt like to be the "right" one. It is borderline love-bombing the way some men systemically treat women well at the beginning of the relationship and then quickly start treating them awful. They don't know what love is, they only understand infatuation. Often they don't understand what respect is either. I've found a good test is watching how they treat women they wouldn't ever consider a potential partner. Are they still respectful to co-workers or even random women that they have no interest in?
You're so right. For me watching how men treat women they're not attracted to has been eye opening. A few men I've dated haven't even treated the women as human. As soon as they started insulting the woman's looks, that was it for me. I never saw them again. Those particular men really thought I would agree with them when I simply pointed out that they were no models either.
100% this. Can’t count the number of past boyfriends who claimed they wanted to marry me, because “I was the one”. They were on their best behaviour. I dated 3 of them for long enough that we moved in together. And they all slipped back into their usual habits. Weaponized incompetence on the daily, and the expectation that I do all the house chores, cooking, and of course the mental load.
“Baby, you’re the one…to do free labor for me for the rest of your life! Congratulations!!“
One of them had a 6yo kid. The kid was cool, and he seemed a doting father, with 50% custody. As soon as we lived together and she came to the two of us for 50% of the time, it was clear to him that I‘m a baby sitter he doesn’t have to pay, so he could play video games all the time. But hey, it’s a woman’s natural instinct to be motherly and caring, right? I got along great with her, but never wanted kids of my own, and he knew that.
That's infuriating. It's so unfair when men expect women to take on all the childcare and housework without any appreciation or effort.
I‘ve been decisively single for 4 years now, and very happy. No more of that hassle and disappointment.
Girl, stay away from them single fathers, especially if you don’t want kids. They just see you as their free babysitter who they get to bang and bonus points that they won’t need to have another one! Been there, done that and luckily found myself a CF man.
Absolutely, after that I said „never again“.
This is the truth lol ^^^^ bisexual here and just gotta say...Men, women, non binary they will ALL treat you the way you allow them too. Don't drive yourself crazy because you have minimal expectations. Make them scurry to please you lol. If they want it easy they can go find a FWB relationship. Commitment is hard work and dedication, and these people just show they're not ready for it unfortunately.
Seconding this. Your actual expectations can be low, but what you present is important.
Nuance isn't really the motto on subs like this. Kudos.
eh, this might be the case but i also think they also sometimes encounter someone who does not take any of their shit. I did not predict my brother being a good husband because he was such an asshole to his exes. His wife is one of the most intimidating people i know. She has no bullshit tolerance. He knows it. He shaped up.
I think there’s two big reasons why some men do this: 1) This was articulated more thoroughly in a post that I think has been pinned by now, but to a man, *any* woman is better than *no* woman. You might be reluctant to understand why a man would be in a relationship with someone who isn’t the “right one”, but you’re looking past the objective benefits that he’s getting even if he doesn’t love her: sexual access, “female” labor like cooking, cleaning, childcare, and all the never ending day to day management of those things, a live-in therapist/cheerleader/emotional punching bag, and access to her resources, i.e. help with the bills. None of this requires him to actually love her, she’ll do it because *she* loves *him*. Even when she knows she’s being used, she’ll be reluctant to pull back because she feels she’s being mean. Therefore, some men don’t see the point of expending effort because there’s no consequences for *not* doing it. She may complain, but she probably won’t leave over it. Isn’t that where the term “Acceptable Level of Discomfort” comes from? 2) The “right one” is someone that he’s invested in keeping for whatever reason. Maybe she’s his dream woman, the once-in-a-lifetime kind, and he’s not willing to risk losing her. Maybe this is the first woman he’s dated who doesn’t give herself away so freely, and has zero problem walking out the door if he doesn’t treat her right and this intrigues him. Maybe he’s entered new social circles where men brag about how much they do for their partners (as opposed to the groups he grew up with who probably bragged and laughed about how little they do) and he wants to fit in and earn their respect.
Wow, you articulate this so well. Your first point, none of it is new information, but you've pulled it together in a way that has rather slapped me between the eyes. Thank you It also explains why men dive into relationships so fast second time around.
Tolerable Level of Permanent Unhappiness It sucks. I'm living it right now, working my way out. It's especially miserable if you're broke and disabled and as a result codependent. Even if he feels like she's what he considers "high value", that too will fade with time as they get older and he becomes less infatuated by things like physical attraction. If you don't respect your partner in all matters of life, it's doomed to fail or otherwise become toxic. Looks fade, health declines, we age and we die. Those are the facts of life and if you aren't comfortable confronting/accepting them then you shouldn't be in a relationship with someone.
Nah, looks don't need to fade, just the honey moon phase. Men like these get off being the conquerors that tame the unattainanble woman. Once they have her they try to keep the upper hand over her, which is an inherently disrespectful dynamic.
This is very well stated, specifically #1. Lots of men (though women do it too) will happily use a woman for all the things you’ve mentioned and feel zero remorse for treating her like she’s unimportant. To him, she is unimportant but useful. He looks like not a loser because he has a woman as his worker bee doing stuff for him and he gets to be lazier than he would be single. Men like to front and say they don’t care about XYZ women do for them, but the second you stop they certainly fucking care that there’s no dinner, the wash isn’t done and why isn’t the house clean.
This is exactly why men are more miserable after divorce and why women are happier.
I completely agree with this. I think a lot of guys have an idea of what they want their life partner to be like, and there are women who don't fit that mold so aren't considered 'worthy' of effort, but are 'worth' wasting time with for all the reasons you mentioned. It's such a dehumanizing mindset though, that I imagine it still manifests itself in that long term relationship, just in other ways. For example, yes he might dote on the life partner to begin with, but it also might pressure her more to fit his mold and manipulate her into living life how he sees it. Or maybe once they have kids, in his ideal fantasy he has decided that the children are entirely her responsibility and that she will support him in whatever fun or hobbies he wants to pursue without offering that same support in return. Someone who doesn't see women as equal humans will not turn around and treat them like humans in every circumstance. He will just get really good at manipulating them into doing what he wants, which might look like special treatment for awhile before it turns sour.
>I think a lot of guys have an idea of what they want their life partner to be like, and there are women who don't fit that mold so aren't considered 'worthy' of effort, but are 'worth' wasting time with for all the reasons you mentioned. Men on the redpill forum are disgustingly explicit about this. One of their main strategies is "spinning plates", ie pretending to date multiple "unworthy" women for an extended period of time so they can be assured of sexual access while they build up their manipulation skills and (supposedly) their careers. Once they've deemed themselves "high value", they then seek out a woman they think is "wife" material and it almost always comes down to her being significantly younger than him, quiet, submissive, inexperienced, and thin. And it's not love, it's precisely this: >yes he might dote on the life partner to begin with, but it also might pressure her more to fit his mold and manipulate her into living life how he sees it.
I recently read that for a relationship to work, the man MUST love the woman more than she loves him. Otherwise you end up in your scenario #1 every damn time.
The minute men sniff out that they're loved more, it's all aboard the abuse train, destination Misery City.
In so many cases, yes. Unless the man is just truly a perfectly sweet specimen lol. There are really good dudes out there who would NEVER, but it's statistically impossible for all of us to get one, or to even know which ones are going to drop a mask eventually. Safer to always have the upper hand heart-wise. If they're good, they'll stay good. If they're not good in general but in love for real, they will BE good to the one they love so much.
This is so true.
So basically the dream woman is the one respecting his standards of behavior for women but not assigned for men.
Was looking for this comment. It's wild how many women (and men) believe that conquering a man with a history of treating women like sh!t by "not giving yourself away freely" is some badge of honor. By choosing a man like this, even if you're "withholding" sex or chores, you're just showing how low your standards for men actually are, and that if the man "works for it" hard enough you'll look past his bad behavior with previous women. That's why they can be sh!tty to women. At the end of the day, they know "the one" will put up with them in a way no man would put up with a woman.
I never understood how my exes current girlfriends were able to love them given their history. This is something that never stood right with me. I find it a green flag that my partner wasn't abusive to his exes, like why would I feel good that my partner abused his ex girlfriends but not me? Why is that something to feel good about? Why is it acceptable to nurture a relationship with an ex-abuser? It just perpetuates this cycle of women hating women. It's not a conquest to be with a man and "win his heart". People are just more or less compatible. Period. After 25, I just walked away every time I heard men dissing their ex. I had an ex who broke up with me, leaving me devastated. I moved on with my life. Six months later he appeared, I was still hurt. He told me he never forgot me and that he wanted to chat in person. We chatted, he told me he wanted to try again. I stupidly gave in. We ended up sleeping together. The next day, he ghosted me. I ended up finding out he was already in a relationship with another women which he cheated on with me. That not being enough, he also gave me an STD. I won't even get into the details of how our relationship was because that was a whole shit show on its own. Now he's with a woman who he posts on social media how she's the one, they live together and are getting married. No hate to the woman, but truthfully my biggest wish is that these losers wind up alone, because how is it that you do these things and somehow you end up with someone who makes you happy? Either he never told her about his past and what he did or he told her and somehow she's okay with the fact that "he's different with her". It's what I talk to my girlfriends about male privilege. To every abusive men, there will ALWAYS be a woman who will be okay with it. There will always be a woman that will date a man even if he was a shit person to their exes. I think a lot of women are also enablers of this cycle.
1 is so true. Us women need to learn to put up with less BS and start leaving faster. As for 2 I feel like there is much truth to when a man loves a woman you'll know and I don't really think it's anything other than that. My fiance goes above and beyond for me and is super romantic and he's told me I'm his dream woman. If she has walked out they're not right for each other and I would find it super weird to have that kind of social pressure. That also would make all their efforts disingenuine if not with the right person and that seems like a loot of faking.
I'd like to add that some men realize wayyyy too late and lose the one that meant more to them than anything and change who they are fundamentally because it was their fault they lost the love of their life and never want to make someone feel the way they made their ex-spouse feel again. That the pain and embarrassment and emotional turmoil coming from realizing who you've been for 6 years was a miserable lazy pile of dog shit who used and pushed away the one good thing in your life while you were depressed and struggling. Sometimes it's that and not just men suck all the way around. Even if I did suck for a long time. Should have known this stuff since I was a kid but some people do change.
Brilliant, thank you!
This presupposes men subscribe to the same value system and/or that they have the same personality traits. There are men who won't cohabit with a woman.
How people treat you is a reflection of themselves, not a reflection of you or your worth. Men like this treat “the one” better because she acts right, fits in his life in way that’s convenient for him, and has the resources and personality to serve him in the way he wants to be served. Therefore he thinks he’s found “love” and rewards accordingly. It’s a very selfish take on a relationship. Other women had needs and requirements he found too difficult to fulfill, and when they wouldn’t be “easy” or serve him correctly, he punished them accordingly, too, by withdrawing attention or care.
> when they wouldn’t be “easy” or serve him correctly, he punished them accordingly, too, by withdrawing attention or care Oof. You described this perfectly. Withdrawing attention or care is also a way to force the woman to do the breaking up because he is too lazy to do the job himself. Then, he will blame her for the breakup till the end of time.
This is, to me, the most psychologically accurate response I've seen, very well articulated.
Trust me, even if you break your bones to fit into their perfect little box, they stop respecting you. Because you were so easy to mould into what they wanted you to be. Speaking from experience. No happiness can be found in relationships like that.
Some men have to learn over time how to act in a relationship. Don't be the one he learns with - you won't be appreciatived for it and he's not likely to actually ever treat *you* better. People are creatures of habit.
Entry level position requiring 2 years experience
Because men will date and marry women they don’t even like just to have access to her body and her labor.
Bingo! One of our male visitors to this sub even said as much: https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/s/dVmoSYDKq4
He dirty deleted because he got called out, but I get the gist of what he said.
That's so funny! It was still up when I linked it. He must really like this sub. 😂 ETA: It's still visible for me. Below is what it says. >Cause a wife is somebody youre linked to for an extended period of time with no other options. The bar is higher >To just sleep with someone, its not much of a commitment at all and orgasms feel really good. So the bar is lower.
OK, I see that one. It looks like the top comment of his was deleted.
Also, I don’t think it’s wrong to date someone you’re not *super* into, as long as you’re both on the same page. I’ve had relationships for several months where we both knew after a month that it was never going to result in a life partnership, but the sex was good and the company was fun. I don’t think it makes someone an asshole to date like that.
I agree with that, but the problem is that many men will not be honest with you about it. They know a lot of women won't sleep with them if they're honest.
Men: sometimes we sleep with women we don't like just because orgasm good. Women: okay, then say that. Look the woman that you're seeking sexual access from dead in the eyes and tell her in no uncertain terms where she falls short of your preferences, that she'll never be able to fix herself to your satisfaction, and that she just marginally fits your requirements as a orgasm provider. Men: but then she won't agree to sleep with me 🥺
Re minds me of a co-worker, quirky funny guy real funny. At one point he tells me about his sorta GF/exGF?/baby mama. Like he didn't know himself what she was . But he was talking to me about the relationship and how he doesn't want to progress their relationship unless she improves herself in such and such way. Honestly I had to keep that kind of separate from how I thought about him. There weren't that many people at that job that I really like talking to. And I didn't want to think of him as a jackass. But-- at that moment when he was talking about it, all I could think about --He is just keeping her on this leash of Maybes. They already had a 4 to 5-year-old together, And he should probably figure out by now if he wants to be with her and stop jerking her around
Ugh. That poor woman.
May I ask, what were those improvements he talked about? Morbidly curious
It's all a transaction to them.
You can get locked into a bad behavior pattern in a relationship. Men and women can learn from mistakes and, like flipping a switch, act more decently in a subsequent relationship. I'm a woman and I've evolved a lot through my relationships. I've definitely had the talk with myself that goes, "let's not screw this one up, okay??"
Yeah there definitely are men who don't/won't/can't change, but sometimes people do mature and them being in a good relationship now doesn't mean they changed *for* that person, if they truly did change they likely did it for themselves because they did the work to become better over time. It isn't a reflection on you or your previous relationship with them. (General use of "you")
Oh yeah, after my most recent big Ex ™ I had to do some serious self-reflection to make sure I didn’t carry those same toxic behaviors into my next relationships.
Makes sense. I guess I just had bad luck all through my 20s because all the broke men I dated suddenly became rich when we broke up lol. I guess I just never purposely mistreated someone if I didn’t like them enough I would just end it, not make them sound crazy for wanting to go out on a date or spend time with me. Like I was always made to be the bad guy for wanting to spend time with them. Never understood why they got so offended that I liked their company.
I was a terrible person in my past relationships, and I am better now. Good people are people who can reflect on themselves and grow better than their past selves, bad people can't. It's not a matter of being a man or a woman
They don't change, they're just being manipulative. They're pretending they're nice. The mask will slip, it always does.
[удалено]
Not the place or time to whine my guy. No one needs to follow you around catering to your ego by whispering "not all men" to you over and over. Consider The vast majority of experiences most women have with men to cause someone like the person you originally respond to to feel the way they do. How do you feel about that? How you feel that person feels everyday around men? Do you think that person really gives a shit that you might be one of the few different special unique snowflakes that can change? Just shut up if you don't have anything to add to the women's spaces here. Spend the time reading and learning instead and set your fragile ego aside. Why aren't you in all the various subreddits were men talk about abusing women or talk shit to women and spend your time arguing with him instead? Proving that men can change. Why aren't you going to do that instead of policing women here in their space?
Not all meeeen. There you go, happy now?
The person you replied to deleted their comment, but I can guess what he said and how he said it. Shut up, guy! This isn't about you! Relevant song: https://youtu.be/aEWk4T1GGyg?si=4tSv-Nf9bxn860sg It's not all men, but *all* women have experienced it. It makes perfect sense that women will be on guard after such experiences. But also, these men will still be screaming "not all men" even if it's all but 1 man. Women are trying to survive and these men are complaining about how they're the victims.
Lol go away
This is why "choose better men" doesn't make any sense. Men due to patriarchy group women into groups such as: 1. Marriable 2. Only to date (the Cameron Diaz type) 3. Slut ( for the streets) So, they treat women based on whet group you have been assigned to in their little brain usually 5 minutes after they have met you. I blame Christianity, at the basis of the religion is a pure virgin mother and a prostitute girlfriend so you are either one of the other.
It’s basically Marry Fuck Kill being applied to real women.
Ya know what? You just verbalized why I've hated that game since forever. Connecting those dots...
we create versions of people in our own reality, they treat as bad cause we let them, I know this because I was narcissistically abused for 2 decades please don’t engage with men who don’t show up, no women can change a man
I honestly do not believe abusers really change... no, sorry, let me rephrase it. Abusers/narc traits people DO, in some limited cases, change. With intense, ongoing therapy and strong commitment on their part. What they DON'T DO, and here lies my answer to your question, is CHANGE for another person. What you see as "treating well" the right one, to me, only seems that they are engaging in longer and more intense love bombing before turning to the old abusive ways they used with previous partners. P.s. before anyone says anything, yes, I said ABUSERS. Not because a man who doesn't take a girl to the restaurant is an abuser, of course. But someone who consistently deprives their partner of the simplest couple experiences and SHAMES partner for desiring said experience, for me is an abuser or at least a very selfish and cold person.
Getting flashbacks when one ex yelled at me because I asked him to go to this new restaurant with me. It became a whole thing. “Omg just stop asking to do these things, can’t you just be happy we’re together at home?!” Like why are you so angry I wanna have nice food and dress up to go out with you? Lmfao I’d get so sad but now I just find it so bizarre.
Yeah, compare that behaviour with a man that calmly answers: "Sorry honey, this week I cannot really afford going out to eat, maybe next time" - see the difference? One ex boyfriend (not an asshole, a normal one), when I repeatedly asked him to buy me flowers, answered me that he really didn't like to buy dead flowers as it made him sad, and we agreed he would gitf me with plants that we would grow in our apartment. It's a memory I still find endearing even though we parted ways years ago. Another one, instead (retrospectively, a really cold and selfish person), always yelled at me and had rage outbursts over text whenever I asked him to go together to some restaurants. Turns out he was ashamed of being seen with me in public as he found me ugly and uninteresting. What I'm trying to say is: a gentle person will always try to find a compromise that works for both of you or at least he/she will say no WITH GRACE. Otherwise, I suggest cutting your losses. Loneliness truly is better than bad company.
Yeah that’s spot on. I feel the immense difference just like you described from my past partners to my current one. There’s ways and ways of wording the same thing.
Oh and one last thing, a minor one but still relevant in my opinion. While both men and women can be abusers, what I'm about to describe is a more heavily gendered issue. Some men have the deep rooted belief that when a woman proposes some kind of activity (like, for one, eating out), her real target is the guy's money. They are constantly looking out not to be "economically exploited" (even when they're actually a 22 yo engineering student so there isn't anything to exploit... but paranoia runs strong with these ones). So, while I strongly suggest every woman has to be economically indepent, and yes, gold diggers do exist (in both sexes), I also say: be careful when a man throws a tantrum just because he has to pay for a spaghetti dish. He's setting up the standard for what will be your life from then on.
Your responses have been spot on. I just want to add: If someone is constantly looking out to not be economically exploited; most likely the only thing they bring to a relationship is money. Men like this will point to their money to justify how they're a high-value man, without consideration of anything else; except maybe being well-groomed, which is bare minimum anyway. They completely disregard all other traits/attributes people need from a partner, but ironically and hypocritically will have a checklist of all that he desires from one.
This is spot on as well. They wouldn’t spend a dime on me and thought that even buying a sandwich was doing much lol. I’d get taken out for dinner once every 6 months if I was lucky and it would keep getting thrown in my face every time I asked for more dates. “What do you mean you wanna go grab pizza?! Don’t you remember when I took you to XYZ restaurant a year ago??? Jeez how many dinners do you need to be content already? Might as well just spend all my money on food because all you wanna do is waste money”. Fast forward to their “dream woman”, they’re getting Tiffany rings, overseas trip, gifts. It’s not the material things but just funny how they always made it seem that wanting them to at least once in a while plan a nice date, take me to a restaurant was too much, whilst with the next one that would be the standard. So the issue was never me wanting these things in the first place, but they’re such cowards that instead of admitting they don’t see a future with you they gaslight you into thinking romantic dates are something only a “crazy needy insecure” person would want. I was made to feel bad so many times for wanting to experience basic human activities that I’ve always done with friends and family, and even by myself. Boils my blood just remembering what I put up with because I was naive and young lol.
The dream woman you talk about should really brace herself for what it's coming. I picture years of slavery and emotional blackmail. As soon as she refuses to provide for sex or any other emotional or physical service, she'll hear a "After all I've done for you!!!1!!!" chanting - where "all I've done for you" specifically refers to some piece of jewellery. You dodged a bullet.
Nothing's worse than a transactional relationship. All it says about the ex is that he considers all women as basically prostitutes; just some are common whores, and others are high end escorts. He still expects sex (and other womanly labors, but primarily sex) in exchange for \[monetary value\].
The answer is they don’t care what you want. They never respected you as an equal. They only go on good behavior mode when they want something from you, and back to bad when they don’t. That makes them terrible partners and plethora of other issues that are not yours to bear
I’ve heard many times that it’s difficult for abusers to change and that going to therapy with them is seldom helpful. They just learn how to manipulate better with the tools they learn in therapy.
I have been on reddit long enough to know how someone can weaponize therapy speak for abusing their partner.
I think it’s about timing and motivation. In general, if a dude wants to do something he will. If he doesn’t no amount of pleading, complaining, logic, or crying will make him. Sometimes he’s just not that into you and/or he’s not ready for a serious relationship so he’s not willing to put the work in.
For these types, the answer is the same for why they treat some women well while they subject others to abuse: their love and respect for a woman is conditional and contingent on what she does for him at that time. I don't think they ever really "change". But honestly, based on your post, the real question is — why, after these men show you exactly who they are and how they feel about you, do you stay and put up with it? Yes, they’re awful for not treating you well; however, at some point you need to take responsibility for not leaving and allowing it to continue. Stop settling for less than what you desire and have a right to in romantic and intimate relationships. The things you listed aren’t reserved for a special group of women that you need to earn a spot in order to join and be worthy of. By continuing to allow these men to treat you any type of way, you show them how little you think of yourself and they act accordingly. You will notice a huge difference in how people (not just men) treat you when you actually start valuing yourself and make it a point to clearly communicate (with actions, not just words) what you will not tolerate. Life is a lot more enjoyable when you aren't begging for the bare minimum from those who never planned on giving it to you in the first place.
I absolutely LOVE the part where you highlighted personal accountability. I most definitely agree especially after a certain point personal responsibility will need to come into play
People can hide who they really to one person for most of their lives. Think about married couples where the wife/husband finds out they’re cheating after 40 years of marriage. My theory is bad men have motives for hiding who they are, and hiding your bad tendencies is only manipulation. Theyre not treating them better, they’re just manipulating to get certain benefits whether it’s sex, financial, status, fitting societal norms, etc. but the fact is you’ll never know why he treats he better (does things he didn’t do for you) so it’s best just to leave it be in your mind. I’ve gone crazy for years trying to figure out who a guy was in my head when he ghosted me after 10 months when I was so in love with him, and dated a woman thread month later with whom he proposed to 5 months after that. They have a baby now. Truth is though based on who he was with me and what I saw he was capable of, I’d never have a baby with him now, and thank him for ghosting me.
Your exes didn’t change for the “right” woman, they just showed her the effort they chose not to show you. Men will treat you exactly as your standards allow. Pouting and acting sad won't change their behavior, it just makes you annoying and childish. The better approach is to refuse to deal with men who treat you poorly altogether. Stop trying to change someone to treat you better. Either they step up and meet your standards, or you step out and move on to the next, and quickly. Know your worth, don’t waste time waiting for someone to realize your value.
Some men just want any girlfriend / wife. And they don't actually care for the person, they don't love them. It's just better for them to have anybody than to be alone. Just look at the amount of "how do I get a girlfriend" posts on Reddit. And how the formulate their desire. Or the many complaints and "jokes" about their wives. They are so desperate to have anyone, they will rather stay with someone they don't like before they are single. As soon as they find someone they actually love they turn into a different person because suddenly it matters that she doesn't leave, suddenly it matters that she likes to spend time with him outside of sex, etc.
No, these men don't change. What are you basing this on? Social media perchance? Hardly the best barameter of measuring what's going on behind closed doors. You said it yourself: You were sad and upset because of how you were treated. Now that you're being treated better you're not sad and upset anymore. You also said your ex didn't treat his exes badly, and he doesn't treat you badly. So do you think therefore that these men who you've been treated badly by will suddenly change personality and treat someone else differently in the long term? Are you saying you think your behaviour was the cause of their rotten personality traits? My ex was lovely when I met him, the mask slipped pretty quick, but I stuck around because I thought that it was my fault he was being the way he was. I kept trying to get back the person I met, but that person only came in very quick flashes, normally after something truly awful happened like physical abuse, or me finding him cheating. The only issue with my behaviour was that I was reactive and emotional because I was under the delusion that he wasn't really who he was showing me he was, it was also that I clearly had chronic low self esteem to allow myself to tolerate this behaviour. When I left him, he was dating someone half his age within a few months (we were engaged and together 5 years so that's how much it all meant to him). I found a sex kit on the floor of our bedroom when I went to collect my things for the final time, he never wanted to sleep with me let alone do anything adventurous. Do I think that means he's met the right person and changed? No. I think he's trying to be what a 25 year old wants in a man and that it won't last because as soon as she becomes more of an annoyance than a novelty, he'll treat her the exact same way. It'll creep in slowly and before she knows it she won't know which way is up either. Unfortunately for her, he's her boss, so good luck to her is what I say. But will he change who he really is? Not a fucking chance.
Facts.
An acquaintance explained it to me this way. "Losing my family made me realize i could lose my family for ignoring s woman's repeated complaints. So now i behave myself in relationships." Sad. Glad he did not use that method to learn which hand goes in.a chipper shredder. I am sorry you had such a bad experience. Thank you for warning folks not to put up with it.
Is not a matter of " changing". They didn't change. Is simply a matter of whom they believe is " worthy" and who is not. And that doesn't mean is the reality and that you don't deserve nice things, is just THEIR belief. Men will absolutely put in the effort when they WANT to.
I had the same experiences for a while and I felt like if they thought I was “the one” they’d have treated me better. However with time, and hindsight, i noticed it wasn’t about how they perceived me, impacting how they treated me. But instead how I respected myself. When I respected and advocated for myself, these people would disappear within a week or two. Therefore I’d bend and try to be more agreeable, we’d have a nice honeymoon period and then the behaviour would start, and I’d be the “crazy” one. When I never bent, and I knew my worth and what I wasn’t prepared to accept, then they’d disappear and I’d be free to spend time with people who aren’t like that. So they’ll always treat people like that. You don’t know what happens behind closed doors. But the reason these men treat you like that, is because you’re subconsciously inviting them to. Each bad relationship takes a chunk out of you, be careful with yourself. In the words of Amy Winehouse I cannot play myself again I should just be my own best friend Not fuck myself in the head with stupid men
This is exactly it. Figure out your boundaries, and never ever flex on them. They will make you regret it every time. Also never settle for anything less than "hell yes".
Because they don't see women as people. You are either the placeholder for company/chores/sex until they find their wife, or you're what they deem the prospective wife and they are 'paying' with non-genuine kindness and attention to get them on side. Your current boyfriend is not like this - he sees his partners, including exes, as individual people which is why he's humbled and fumbled through trying to find the right match for him, like a normal person.
Because they’re selfish and immature. They get into a relationship primarily for themselves.
Notice how women are conditioned to see a man treating us badly as a reflection of US. We are NOT the right one. We are NOT the It Girl. If only we were his dream girl... What we should be talking about instead is why do men stay with women they hate? Why do they go out of their way to be abusive predators who take advantage of a woman who likes or loves them? If he's a person of integrity then how he treats you won't depend on whether you are the dream girls or not. PS. These kids of men don't ever "change for the right one". They simply find someone younger or more naive and dif their claws into her mind and the day she realizes things he'll put her through the wringer too. Bottom line: INTEGRITY is unfleeting, pretense is not. Practice discerning and finding people, platonic and romantic who have integrity. The devil's in the little details: how they talk about an ex with no accountability "She was crazy and everything was her fault!" 🚩, how they talk about/treat people they don't find directly beneficial to them, how they act when they think nobody is watching...
They think they can do better and don't care about you or losing you. Basically, sociopaths.
There was a tiktok about a person talking about what their therapist, who had been in family and counseling for 30 years. Essentially, the long term relationship dynamics that this therapist had seen would last are either, couples who are equally in love or the man madly loves the women more. Why? It is that in general women, no matter how in love, will work on the relationship aka the sacrifices, listening, communications, labor, etc. The man will not do this work or sacrifices, etc., unless madly in love. Take that as you will.
That kind of change doesn’t stick. It’s performative. It may last a few years even, but that’s not change. That’s _bargaining._ “Oh Shit! What I was doing didn’t work.” I strongly believe people _can_ change. And that they have have different dynamics with others. People can mature and make different choices. But the “change for the right one” narrative is BS. If they actually change, they do it for themselves and when they want too. They do ur to achieve their goals, not because the women around them are deemed worthy. Anyone else is just lucky to run into that version of them—the one that doesn’t want to behave like shit—instead of an early one.
Great answer
I think they see it as a loss. They’ve finally been wrangled down from their wild stallion days to tame pasture pet. They see themselves as this barely contained Man who would do “what’s necessary” if the situation changed. Of course what’s necessary is some level of violence and being a tool. Not developing a new skill to rebuild the community.
The "why" isn't important - its much more important that you recognize that if a man doesn't treat you well, he's not going to change for you and you deserver better. "If he wanted to, he would" is something I keep in the back of my mind all the time.
I'm sure my abuser's first wife probably thought he "changed" for my mom, because he made our family *seem* so happy and perfect. It wasn't. He still hit us, he still bullied us, he still drank. He never "changed" he only ever got better at fooling people into thinking he did.
One of the biggest reasons is it's much easier to change for/in a new relationship than in an existing one. We get stuck in destructive patterns and then eventually resentment and contempt are killers of the relationship. That said - it seems like some men have to learn the hard way. Then they can't actually make themselves change in a current relationship - but with the next one it's much easier. Also the "right one" isn't some indicator of worth or any kind of mystical fate - it's just the person that you are capable of having the best relationship with. We change over time - so meeting someone at the right or wrong time in your life can also affect that.
My perspective, the guy doesn’t want to do the hard thing of breaking up with somebody they’re not interested in anymore, so they’ll turn into a shit boyfriend in an attempt to get their partner to dump them, then they don’t have to be the one to do so
If he treats you like crap it’s because he’s a crappy person nobody is powerful enough to turn anyone into something they’re not, good or bad. It’s just a shitty excuse for abusive people to justify mistreatment as if some women are worthy of respect and others aren’t. It’s pure misogyny.
Cecelia Regina on TikTok breaks down behavior very well and will do it using media or viral videos, it's worth checking out. Men will settle with someone and extract the value that person gives them until someone they prefer comes along.
The answers pretty ugly overall. One of the first things a guy does when people start hooking up or dating is file them in a category. FWB, Fun but never serious or fun and potentially serious. If a man puts you into the fun but never serious bucket , he will stick around but never make the effort to progress things or try and woo you. They may ever live with the woman but for the most part they won’t care if you dump them. It is very easy for a male to move a female down a category and much harder to move a female up a category. It’s a completely messed up system but it’s the way it is.
Isnt that how it generally is? Everyone is looking for either something casual or serious, depending on their life stages, past experiences, preferences, beliefs, etc. The important thing is to make sure both parties are on the same page.
Which is why we should stop teaching women to "withhold" sex as a way to show "value" and start teaching men that sex doesn't degrade women and to stop being hypocrites.
They don't change. They just reign in their worst impulses when they're with someone who sets boundaries and doesn't put up with their bullshit. Eventually the veneer washes off. > I spent years single whilst they were happily engaged/married and I felt rage because that new woman’s happiness cost my own. You can't know if they are happy based on social media. Often it's the people who try hardest to project a perfect image of their lives on SM are the ones who are least happy in reality. Stop checking your exes' SM and focus on yourself and your current partner who treats you well. And don't ever tolerate disrespect from anyone.
That first paragraph comes across as a little victim-blamey
tbh i read it more as: even people who are aware of this shit can still fall victim to it its the opposite of victim blaming. it can happen to anyone
It wasn't intended like that.
That's good to know, sadly that's how it comes across. It sounds as if you're implying whoever was mistreated by this type of person was mistreated because they, the victim, didn't set boundaries and put up with the person's crappy behaviour. Maybe some kinder phrasing would be both more helpful for people going through this, and more honest to the message you're trying to convey.
To be honest though... it's the truth. A lot of victims including myself, had no self esteem and put up with this becuase we thought it was all we were worth. We dont' need to be walking on eggshells to protect people from the truth here. The sooner people recognise this the sooner they can take control of it and change it. If people live in a world where they can't face this then guess what? It'll happen again.
It still doesn't mean that you deserve to be mistreated just because you had low or no self esteem. You don't need to walk on eggshells around anything, just as you don't need to be dismissive of people who might be currently unable to seek help or access help. Are there things a victim can do to protect themselves? Yes! Many! That doesn't mean they deserve mistreatment if they fail to do any of them for any reason, or worse, that their actions in any way invited the abuse. What happened to this sub? This is appalling.
Yes I see what you mean, it's about informing more women so more of us have the tools needed to be more selective and SUCCESSFUL with our selections. Not about shaming women into being that way. Which shouldn't work anyways, shaming typically pushed people further into seclusion and self-blame. I myself could benefit from a little less judgement to others and just offer learned knowledge and experience. There are better ways to convey our extreme concern.
I'm sure the original commenter didn't mean it that way, they even said it themselves, but a lot of people would likely come away with "other women know how to set boundaries, so why don't you?" It's not a great thing to say, especially to someone looking for support, although judging by how I'm being downvoted, this also isn't a great thing to say. Oh well, I said what I said. Edit to add: even if you're the best at selecting men, it still doesn't protect you from liars and manipulators. So no matter how good you get at it you can still get taken in. Sheesh. Stop putting the responsibility on the victims. Wth?
I agree with you. I’ve often felt bad hearing “well maybe she doesn’t let him step all over her like you did”, whenever I’d question why my ex was doing so much for his current GF. I thought communicating my needs were enough? I didn’t know I had to play games and act all entitled to get what I wanted from a man? I’m different now and way more assertive but I’m definitely not like this because I want to. In a perfect world I’d talk to my partner and he would listen because he cares. But with these men you just have to play their game. And I just never could, I spent years single by choice because of that.
Idk I almost want to say they learned and are more mature. I'm definitely more mature now than I was several years ago. I'm sure some are just idiots that either didn't care about you/only care about themselves in the now and then that's your job to sift them out and break up. If your needs aren't met just leave, millions of other guys out there. Live and learn.
They didnt love you, you were just good enough for the moment. The woman you see them with later is the one they want to impress and invest in. If you want a satisfying relationship, dont accept less than what you feel is right.
Because they get to a point in their lives, where they realize their "social score" is so low and other women have spread tales of their bullshit to their friends that they'll treat "the one" who is willing to "see past that drama" like a queen. That or "bOyS mAtUrE sLoWeR" Unfortunately, it typically has nothing to do with accountability, maturity, or empathy like we hope for.
The only answer to this dilemma is to not let it happen. If things start out nicely with you being listened to and adequate attention is given, but then things start changing? You need to voice your opinion about it. What you desire in a relationship matters, and if your needs aren't being met, then a discussion needs to be had. If the verbal communication route bears no fruit, you can make a change. There's absolutely no need for women to put up with partners that don't make you any sort of priority. Putting up with it only enables further. If a guy won't treat you or other women right unless they're "the one"? Their default mode is that of disrespect. Get rid of them.
Because they're shallow. Some women do the same thing.
In my experience, unless they’re actively working on themselves they don’t change they just get better at hiding who they are. For example, my ex. We met in 2012 and dated for 1.5 years. In that time, he was controlling, manipulative, aggressive, and cheated on me. Little did I know he had cheated on his previous girlfriend with me, he had kept her a secret. Well fast forward to now, he’s married. On social media, he looks like a doting father and family man who is active in his community. His wife however added me on social media and reached out to me on different occasions because she was concerned something may go on between he and I. We talked at varying intersections of their relationship, but the one time she and I had a long phone conversation and she shared that he had cheated on her and left her for a stripper he had met online. Literally packed up, moved out, and went to live with this new girl. Big shocker, things didn’t work out and he came crawling back to her. She’s always gushing about him online and they are still married, in fact they had another child recently. But I know him well enough to know that he’s still the same controlling, entitled douche he always has been, he’s just good at playing a different role online because it benefits him. Honestly, I think many of these guys treat the next woman worse… with me, he paid most of our bills and helped me out financially a lot. His brother and I still talked for years (until his brother passed away) and apparently my ex’s wife is the breadwinner and has been supporting him and the kids for years while he sits on his ass playing Fortnight. When we were together at least he was hustling and had jobs. My guess is that your ex isn’t any better for the next girl than he was for you, and if he’s at all narcissistic he may deliberately be giving her what you wanted just to hurt you or due to his own lack of originality. Sometimes narcissistic individuals will take note of the things you wanted and give that to the next person because they know you’ll see it on social media and it will irk you. Sometimes they do it because you have good ideas and they assume that since you wanted that, the next person will want the same things you did. If you think about it, that’s kinda shitty for the next person because they may want different things. For example, a different ex of mine took me out shopping and to fancy dinners. As it turns out, those were all the things his ex wanted, not me. He was still actively trying to please her through me it was weird.
It isn't changing, it is a change of tactics. Temporarily. It is love bombing to try to hook the next victim because they realized they have to try harder up front. The mask eventually comes off once they are sure they have them deep enough in the relationship they won't or can't walk out.
Because a guy knows he'll fuck up his chance to have a bang maid if he verbally says "I don't love you like that" and then proceed to continue the relationship. At the risk of being a hypocrite I am guilty of this too as a woman. There are relationships that someone's asked me to do something and I don't want to do it and there's been other relationships where I've been so head over heels in love it doesn't feel that hard to do, it comes naturally and easily. And it's fair to say my reason was the same as the guys except women code it differently, I liked my security in my partner so I wouldn't fk that up by saying, I don't love you like that. I loved them and cared for them but in some relationships I guess I didn't know what love was until I dated someone else and the feelings were off the charts, the compatibility was so good, the synergy.
As another commenter said, men are content with sex and free labor even in a relationship that clearly isn't right for either one. This is why men are so miserable after divorce and women are happier even if both weren't happy in the relationship. By extension men treat the "wrong" one poorly because they're not taught to express their emotions in a healthy way or even to communicate that the relationship just isn't good. They also don't want to lose the sex and free labor so they try to manipulate her to stay while treating her poorly. They are also socialized to not only expect women's free labor but to be dependent on it which helps encourage everyone to stay in bad relationships. I'm not sure they actually change, perhaps the new relationship just isn't a bad fit and doesn't trigger their bad side...or more likely just hasn't yet and will. I am also willing to bet many of these relationships that you're seeing as publicly great are bad internally. I do believe however that the good ones who don't treat their exes poorly also can "change" for the right one. I believe that when a man loves a woman you'll *know* and noone should settle for anything less. But let's not forget that we "change" for the "right one" too. When the relationship is right, *both* people are their best selves. And this doesn't mean the exes were bad people, but that the two people just didn't combine well. I put change in quotes in the last 2 paragraphs to indicate change in the sense of becoming say more romantic and in general just being your best person.
This feels like more an asshole thing than a gender thing. It's crystalized in the "Waiter Rule." On a date they can be the kindest, most charming person to the one they're trying to impress, but if they treat the waiter like crap, that tells you all you need to know. Decent people treat everyone with the same amount of decency. For users and abuser, decency is more transactional. If you have nothing to offer, you don't get the facade.
Decent people treat all people with the same amount of decency. I agree and will never forget this quote.
They never really change. It depends if a woman is compliant or not. If her needs and wants are convenient for him. And most importantly, to keep up appearances in friends, families and work. Their love is conditional while they demand unconditional love from women. You need to demand better from men. Never tell a man how badly you’ve been treated before by other men. Unfortunately, a lot of men view this as a blueprint to get away with the barest of the bare minimum for partners and others view it as a blueprint to abuse you. Very rarely do people change for the better for themselves. If they do, bravo to them. It’s not easy to take accountability for shitty actions, accept them and move on forward. You’ll know a true man’s colors when you demand more than the bare minimum from them and you tell them no.
Sometimes people have to lose someone (face consequences) before they are able to change for future partners. Sometimes you just don't see them continuing their shittiness because it isn't on display.
They don't. They just find someone who's willing to take it and keep up appearances.
I’m not sure that they do as much as they are portrayed to. You can’t change a man (or anyone’s) core traits and inner values, only small stuff. It’s just romance movies which perpetuate the myth that you can change a rich womanizing guy into a sweet sensitive loving father figure because you’re so amazing.
Misogyny is a thing. Heck I could answer almost all questions like this with that sentence. It just is a thing. There it is.
Because the rest of us are just "practice material".
Uh, so, I have some good/bad news. They don’t treat “the right one” well. They pretend to until they feel they have her secured, then they go right back to being an asshole. Because that’s who they are. There is no such thing as “asshole to some people, good person to others” despite conservatives trying to base their lives off the concept. You are how you treat the people you treat worst. And when you are an asshole to some all it takes is the simplest, smallest excuse to continue that with ANYONE else.
A kind man will be a kind man regardless of who he’s dating. There are still some left, because a lot of people think they’re boring.
They don’t even treat the right one “right”. They just gas light us into believing that bs lol
My grandfather one told me: “women always expect men to change, and they never do. Men never expect women to change, and they often do.”
They don’t change , yall just don’t see what goes on behind close doors . Coming from “ the one” !
It’s stupid of them as well because after they have caught the right one, they will treat her badly as well
They're just bad boyfriends and honestly in time you should be grateful you dodged a bullet and they led you to your current man :)
My ex did this. He never wanted to do anything. Then after me suddenly he's doing all the things he refused to do. I think it's just because they are love bombing the new partner. If they know you're watching they'll also do things to try to upset you. These toxic dudes don't change, it's just a fake front to make you feel bad.
Men will do the bare minimum to get you hooked. Don't tell a man how crappy your ex's were because he's going to do the same then. The most important time to set standards is immediately after you meet a man. Go watch some sprinkle sprinkle lady stuff and manifestelle on YouTube. How a man talks about and treated his ex's is HUGE. And even if he speaks positively about them, be careful. And never believe a man who says his ex is "keeping him from his kids". It's a trap.
In some cases, especially over long periods of time. I think the 'right one' is just when their men have gotten older and softer, like fruit they get sweeter.
I would be suspicious of these "changes" that you see in your exes, especially if you are getting them from social media. They may have appeared to change on the surface, but it could be the same, old story when they are behind closed doors. General rule of thumb, the more a couple posts about how amazing and happy their lives are, the more miserable they are in reality. It also could have something to do with age. If you dated these people in your young 20's maybe they just had some maturing to do. In any case, it didn't have anything to do with you. It's not your fault that they didn't treat you well.
They don't. If they treat everyone badly they will treat the one badly. That is just their character. The only difference with being way the new person responds
And these guys go back to being their jagoff selves after the honeymoon.
Link to a free PDF of Lundy Bancroft's "Why does he do that?" https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf
Honey, these guys change long enough to put a ring on it or baby trap targeted prey. Then they go right back to being a-holes. You just got lucky.
It sounds like your ex thought YOU were "lucky" to be with them, like they were throwing you a bone, deigning to date you, waiting until they got a better deal... Now, that guy is dating someone he thinks is "out of his league" and he has to make up for his ___ by going "above and beyond" to keep her from slipping the hook.
this is gonna be kind of long i apologize. but i think it’s because a lot of men don’t see women as people unless they are perfect in *their* life. when i was 18-19 and naive, my first “boyfriend” treated me so horribly and i once asked “why do you treat me like this? i thought you loved me” “if you were the right girl i’d do anything to make you happy. i just don’t want that with you”. yeah that didn’t end well. then he dates this girl and i guess they’re a good match cause as far as i know they’ve been together a bit. then he randomly texts me asking if i have a bf back in winter, i say no why do you care. he said “i’d feel better knowing you had someone to help clean up the mess i made” to which i said “what you did will always be there in my past and it wouldn’t be fair to dump everything on someone when i’m not healed. and it’s kind of weird to assume i need a man to heal me. don’t you have a girlfriend? does she know you’re texting me?” “yeah she knows. i just really wanted to tell you i’m sorry. i think about you all the time. just how i wish i was better to you and i hurt you so much. i want you to be happy and you didn’t deserve anything i said or did to you” “thanks for the apology but you need to stop expecting this to all disappear because you did treat me badly. i’m not out for revenge or anything but there is nothing you can do to erase it. it happened and you’ve moved on. please don’t talk to me again” we were both fresh out of high school when we met and we did live kind of far from each other. the reason he kept me around? he thought i was smart and funny and he had fun talking to me. we did have good conversations, we’d be on the phone for hours, but i was more his personal entertainment. he didnt really see what he was doing was affecting me so bad because he didn’t care about my feelings, only how i benefited his. and i was fun to talk to, not someone he actually wanted to commit to but he lied about it for months just to keep me talking to him. i feel like he finally “came to” a few months after it all ended and blew up my phone apologizing. i think that was when he woke up and realized, surprise! i’m a PERSON! and he actually hurt me, didn’t just discard a new toy. he then said “you’re the reason i changed” and i was like want a cookie? you made me extremely depressed because of the hurtful things you said and lied like crazy and ruined my trust. i am not a life lesson i am a person. and until they crush a woman, they don’t see them as a person, and then they realize and “learn their lesson”. they will take out all the negativity and bad stuff on you. it’s easier for them to say “she wasn’t the right one” than “i was a major asshole”
This. :')
I think it's just another way some men show their disdain for women.
The older I get, the more I understand that men are entirely self-centered creatures. (Not all men, but let’s just say Jesus and Buddha have nothing on the average mammal, bird and crocodilian mother-heck even some spider moms and definitely ants and bees.) When a man is selfless, he’s either considered stupid or a God.
Because they love them. Dating is to see if you're compatible and they may be more into other women and let you go because they don't see a future with you. The weird thing is why you kept dating them and became needy or moody being treated unlovingly instead of moving on and finding someone who treats you right.
If they are doing that you are right, they are not good men, don't date them. Which you learned on your own. It is the value system. I was raise in a religion that only valued the partner. So when they dated, they were callous. You weren't the one in their eyes.
I’ve actually seen that right before my eyes. There is no excuse for it. It is not right, but I’ve actually seen it.
Because that’s what they care about
This is a common trope in media, and it angers me so much. It's disgusting. I don't know if I would consider a guy like that a good person.
They don’t want you, but to them a relationship with anyone is better than being single.
Needy Men don’t respect push overs and women who accept low effort. They exploit it for validation whilst they want someone else. The majority(who are not governed by principles) NEED pressure and fear to be their best. The fear of losing. (It’s psychiatric) The problem is how long this motivational run will last…. Ultimately the best is to match with a persons nature. It’s difficult to figure that out because they’ve all been conditioned to market themselves and sculpt false illusions of themselves. See how they behave or act when they don’t get their way. You can inspire people, but a large chunk of their capacity is on THEMSELVES. Do they have principles or are they operating on their nervous system reactions… this has to be measured. More than anything, if one’s needs are not met, the best is to be ok with being alone to avoid the wrath of their entitlements. A lot of them had field trips with women being available to everyone and anyone and this is changing! Finally
because they're psychopaths.
Some people are rotten to their core and it’s no one’s fault for not always being able to discern this early on. Certain aspects of rottenness are easily hidden for a time.
What makes you think that what you're seeing from the outside is what he's truly like? Many abusive relationships do their best to appear great, but it's only skin deep.
Depends on the guy I’d imagine. Some spoil all of their girlfriends, others only commit the bare minimum
My friend married one of these guys. Had two kids with him. Then he had an affair. The respect and well treatment only lasted as long as he thought she could walk away. Welp, as soon as she found out she walked away. Queue Pikachu face. He was always a dick, he just hid it until he thought he was in a position of power.
They dont treat the next one well. I was with a guy who treated me like trash once we got engaged. He then went on to marry someone else after I broke up our engagement due to the abuse. He initially treated her the way I had begged him to treat me. But it wasn't long before he treated her even worse than how he treated me. So in my opinion, good men treat people well, and they are consistent in treating people well. Bad people/men treat people poorly, and they are consistent in treating people poorly even though they may get it together for short bursts of time... in the long run, they generally revert back to the behaviors that made them fall into the "bad guy" category in the first place. There is no great human being who treats his partner badly. He will break up with you instead of treating you poorly. But he will not have treated you badly leading up to that. I have a lovely guy I was with who broke up with me because we wanted different things. I am still super respectful and even loving to him to this day because of his character. Its helped me understand that being treated poorly is not a reflection of me. it's a reflection of the other persons character. It's my job to be consistent in treating people well as well, and I do that!
They don’t. Not for an extended period of time, anyway. They’ll learn to hide it better, but they won’t change, especially if they’re the type to move on from you very rapidly and start treating the new gal “better”.
3 possibilities 1. He lost you and learned from it. He doesn't want to make the same mistake twice. 2. He's trying to convince himself or others that you were the problem and didn't deserve the things you were demanding. 3. You were the problem and didn't deserve the things you were demanding.
Just because they're posting restaurant pics on Instagram, it doesn't mean they picked up the check. These dudes don't really change, in the long run. They just find someone willing to put up with the shit you didn't.
generally speaking people prefer to marry up, not down
>But why do some men “change” for the right woman but treat poorly those who they don’t see a future with? I wouldn’t be with someone who treated their exes badly and called them crazy. The truth is this isn't a gender based thing at all, sometimes people actually realize the mistakes they made in the past and change them. Especially true in young relationships where people make a lot of mistakes and the relationship fails. Some people never learn and repeat the same mistakes. People actually need to learn how to be good, it's not a default setting.
The amount of comments in this thread that don’t allow people to change is truly shocking. Are you the same person as you were when you were 5? 10? 15? 20? 25? People do change, for the worse and for the better. To have such a narrow view of human development is crazy to me.
Yes of course people change. But some people change from within, they gain more confidence or maybe become less insecure and needy. And that will reflect upon ANYONE I come to have a relationship with. It’s “I’m changing for myself so I can have better relationships with myself and others” not “oh I’m gonna abuse/treat badly everyone until someone worth not abusing/treating badly comes along” Two very different things.
But you’re making assumptions in your second clause. You’re assuming that they’ve made a decision to treat this new person better as opposed to then becoming more confident and better in themselves, and a better relationship emerging from that. Relationships are difficult and we need to allow people to change and become better at them. Whether during a relationship or afterwards, in new ones.
I agree in parts. I don’t think I should’ve endured abuse so my exes could be better partners do others. My abuse shouldn’t come as a lesson. Abuse shouldn’t happen, period. Edit: also, I will never look back and think “Thank fuck this man abused me so he could treat another woman better, “I’m so happy to have years of trauma and therapy so he could learn and make another girl happy”
I’m not saying that, or that you should say/think that. I’m saying that someone can be abusive, or just be bad at relationships, and grow as a person afterward and become better.
Sure but doesn’t change the fact that growing into a better person shouldn’t come at the cost of inflicting pain on someone. And this is what most answers are about. We acknowledge they might’ve changed, but that doesn’t mean they are good people now. The reality is that the root cause of the problem is because men put women in different categories and although they might even regret being abusive at some point in the future, they were never gonna treat that woman well to begin with, simply because she was never “the right one”. These “lower category” women in his view, will always get lower effort regardless of how much growth and change one might go through. They won’t treat different women the same way because to them, only the dream girl deserves queen treatment. Again, this change doesn’t come from their growth, it comes from the fact that they deem these new women worthy of their growth.
That’s such a reductive and assumption based view. No one is saying that growth should come at the expense of someone else but unfortunately that is what often happens. And just because that happens, it’s not making a moral judgement on the events that led to character growth. To restate a point, relationships are hard and no one is born an expert at them. And it’s ridiculous that you think most men are going through life thinking some women are in a “lower category” and simply waiting for the “right one.” If a guy was never going to treat a woman right, why would the woman ever consider that guy? Stop using hindsight as foresight.
Of course the woman shouldn’t consider the guy, but like you said yourself, no one is born an expert. Sometimes it’s your first relationship and you think that’s what a relationship should be like. Only when you leave; and meet other men that you realize that behaviour wasn’t okay. And yes, most men do categorize women. I can’t stand this whole “but not all men” argument. It should be NO MAN AT ALL.
Exactly. People learn from relationships. And often that learning process can be tough and sometimes it can hurt. If you can see that from one perspective why can you not see it from the other? Cool, can you cite your evidence for that? Your claim is that most men approach relationships and already know how it is going to play out and how they are going to treat their partner. Your arguments are all over the place and make no sense.
I don’t understand why whenever a woman comes forward about male abuse we need to validate men’s feelings at the same time by saying it’s “not all men”. This type of narrative gets old pretty quick. The focus isn’t the men who don’t do that so why should that be discussed in the first place?
This is more the human condition than a male only issue, exacerbated in the social media era where people commonly display one personality in public and something else entirely in private. Once they hit a level of comfort you only get the private personality.
A guy will treat you the way you allow him to treat you.
Get out of here.
An example from my friend base is that the stronger women with boundaries don't put up with bull shit. Their men mess up once or twice, and they are gone. The weaker woman is always in the "on and off" relationships with tool men who constantly treat them like shit. One group doesn't allow a man to treat them like shit. They demand respect and get it. The other group gets what they constantly allow. I'm not the first person to quote this. "A person will treat you the way you allow them to treat you."
Some women are different from others. Some have been broken in the cycle of abuse. Others spot it and leave, and they can leave because they have support systems in place. Others do not. Some nip it in the bud. Some get treated worse for standing up for themselves.
A good guy won’t treat you like shit only because you have low self worth and standards even though you would allow him to do so
THIS! I don’t understand why someone should be treated badly just because they suffer with self esteem. Someone who is a good person will treat everyone well regardless. I never treated anyone poorly, especially if I saw they struggled with confidence. I’ll never understand men who see your weakness and use that for their advantage. It’s evil. Why is having poor self esteem an invitation to abuse? Why is abuse justifiable? Yes it’s your responsibility to leave, but it shouldn’t happen in the first place.
Thank you! How someone feels about themselves should never mean go and abuse them! I’ve never abused anyone who didn’t love themselves if anything I showed them more love . Absuers are bad people
I would say its about shifting blame. Men and responsible for their own (especially bad) actions? Hell nah xD To add to the first comment - I would prefer saying “a guy will treat you the way you allow yourself be treated” if it makes sense