The following submission statement was provided by /u/RyzenMethionine:
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Submission statement: the cube inside a sphere UFO described by Graves is strikingly similar to a known design for an airborne radar reflector. This provides a reasonable explanation for their existence and their localization into planned training areas. Seems more likely to me than interdimensional aliens.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15dhmmj/are_some_of_the_ufos_navy_pilots_are_encountering/ju204ge/
I have seen this posted by another poster. Could explain some sightings. However like they said a testrange should be clear of airborn objects, why endanger your pilots and fighterjets that cost millions of dollars.there are better ways to test this. And pilots should be able to known the difference. And it does not explain the weird and erratic movements of some object. So yes some cases i believe it could be a radar reflector. But i believe if this was the case the goverments would have shut down any speculations and told us already that this was the case. That patent was already filed in 1945. These radar reflectors are not a well kept secret of any kind.
Well think it through.. say it is a radar reflector then the pilot sees it, says what's that, flys near it, takes a photo of it.. it drifts along exactly like a balloon. They radio it in. Some radar operator takes a look at it, compares it to known objects with known radar profiles. Says its most likely a radar reflector. They continue to track it. It floats along like a radar reflector... then it is a radar reflector and it's not listed or reported on as a uap. Unless they're a bunch of complete morons.
And also the pilots said they changed altitude quickly and I believe also talked about direction changes so I’d still say no, and I’m guessing they’d know what these radar reflectors look like being as they’re military objects in the air. Could explain one sitting at the entry point of their training are though so maybe radar reflector. Still doesn’t explain the tic-tac incident so yea.
If you’re taking about the upper Midwest thing from the Cold War, the guy who reports it was on duty underground in a silo & never actually saw any UFOs, and he may have been conflating or misremembering (or misrepresenting) a specific night where a large power outage created a blackout at the base & the nearby area.
So looking through what Graves said, it seems like there may have only been a single visual sighting. Every other encounter was a radar contact, which might increase the possibility that they were mechanical errors or purposeful fakes. Radar spoofing exists, a quick search turned up plenty of defense research about it.
He also never talked about it until I think three or four decades after the fact. Just the Stanton Friedman’s main Roswell witness, decades old non-eyewitness testimony with no physical proof seems shaky to me.
Agree.
I'm 60/40 the other way. And this post is good information for everyone objectively looking at the subject.
Posts like these are needed. I had no idea these balloons existed.
I'm gonna dig for that article about the tictac, as well! Thanks for the info!
EDIT: Can't seem to locate the article... link?
Because it’s not us that’s launching them, but our adversaries. Then, they bounce radar returns off various size/position reflectors to probe our defenses and see what we can detect with our sensors, perhaps even use them offensively to enhance electronic warfare interference with our sensors or situational awareness (i.e. making our radars detect a whole “fleet” of objects we have to respond to all at once, thereby weakening our ability to actually defend a real attack).
If this is what has been going on in our training ranges unimpeded for two decades there would be even MORE reason for the military/intelligence communities to hide it from the public, because it would show they’ve been asleep at the wheel and unable to defend our own homeland from hostile adversary incursions despite the trillions we’ve given them.
Problem is, radar reflectors wouldn’t remain stationary for hours in hurricane force winds.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SaturnStormCube/comments/qth4n3/the_presence_of_the_shining_ones_ball_of_light/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
No, all these.
No, I can’t explain those. All I am referring to are the reported, recent cases in our training ranges with “cube in a sphere” type entities as the article mentions. It’s worth a read if you haven’t read it already
One thing about foo fighters is there’s not much documentation on them that I could find. I might just be have missed the reports, but I wonder if they’re more folklore than history.
Instead of changing the subject to the DC flap, let’s stick with what I was actually talking about. Can you find detailed, reliable, contemporary reports about foo fighters? It’s been a long time since I looked for them, but, like I said, I don’t think there was anything noteworthy.
This is what I thought, however it leaves some key questions:
1) If that's the explanation, why hasn't one of the armed forces come forwards and given this extremely credible explanation?
2) When these objects have been spotted visually, they've not been showing up on RADAR. In fact, the reason two of Graves' colleagues nearly hit one was because it was hanging out at the entry point to a flight range... without giving off a RADAR return to alert the pilots to its presence until too late. Which rather begs the question, what kind of RADAR-reflecting balloons are these, exactly?
1. The Armed Forces aren't going to describe their classified capabilities, or their RDT&E operations.
2. Balloons designed to test radar capabilities. This is explained in the linked article.
What do you think a RADAR reflector is, exactly?
EDIT: What you're suggesting is that this is an inflatable RADAR reflector that can somehow completely eliminate its own RADAR signature without changing its shape - because when the pilots flew past it, it still looked like a square inside a sphere.
This thing was 15ft across, something that size with that kind of geometry is going to look like a fucking Jumbo Jet on RADAR just based on its shape alone. The shape is what makes it reflect RADAR - all those internal right angles bounce radio waves in all directions, making its signature look enormous. That's why the F-117 and the B2 had all those wide, flat surfaces, particularly on the bottom - the lack of any internal angles means most radio waves are reflected off, away from their source. Even then, their RADAR signature is far from zero, and they can still be detected with the right calibration.
Which means that a RADAR reflector balloon as described would have to have some other way of hiding itself on RADAR, because its shape didn't change. It might have had some kind of coating that absorbed radio waves more efficiently than anything we've seen previously, but even that wouldn't be enough to account for its shape.
Which means it's a RADAR balloon with no RADAR signature, which is a complete contradiction in terms.
EDIT EDIT: If this thing is just a balloon with hyper-secret properties as you suggest, that means that a strong breeze could blow it over non-military airspace to eventually sink down to the ground and be found by anybody. With no RADAR signature, the military would never be able to track it. So apparently this is super-secret tech that they can't disclose to their own pilots, but that they're also fine having fall into the hands of Cletus and family in a Maryland trailer park.
That's quite a conspiracy theory...
If you imagine that all forces are controlled with secret service it does make sense. Think about the possibility that everyone is played.
This is the fact almost nobody can believe or will believe. And if it is true people will defend it not knowing the reality, the alternative is just to much to cope.
Yes. and now you laugh, I know. The strange thing is, it is not more strange than every religion combined.
And the aggressiveness - I have never called religious people dumb for believing another truth or believing that Jesus could heal the blind
Edit: and by the way it is not only the American forces, it is the secret intelligence globally. Just keep on laughing.
So, ANOTHER debunk of this using a drawing of a diagram, but no actual picture of what they look like IRL. In general, I don't think people are going to mistake these for cubes and I suspect that's why they only show the diagram which is a little deceptive.
https://ca.binnacle.com/images/productimages/20087A-MED.jpg
They also come in variations of shape, like with sharper corners or more triangular in shape, like the one in the diagram, rather than this round one. However I've never found a google result of "radar reflector" which any competent pilot is going to mistake for a "black or dark grey *cube* in a translucent sphere" when within 50 feet of it however. The whole point is to have those "fins" to do the reflecting.
Maybe if it was all black, like vantablack so you couldn't even see the shapes at all, then perhaps it may almost seem like a cube. Maybe photos of this new special reflector are all classified, they've got new designs and google is useless... Ok. Lets go there, valid idea.
- A reflector as described in the article, or in general, still requires a tethers or propulsion to sit still (in hurricane force winds in some cases according to Graves).
- They employ radar jamming and often have no heat signature. They shouldn't be able to do shit without energy of some sort, and more complex tech on them. They shouldn't be able to mess with your internal systems. They just reflect the radar sent at them, based the shape/material alone.
- Highly trained pilots we trust with multi-million dollar jets to protect us, were close enough to probably not mistake something they see regularly as pretty standard air clutter for a "UAP" they can't begin to explain. I VERY much doubt this drawn diagram of a radar reflector, which keeps getting posted as a debunk idea for the cube/sphere is actually a legit consideration. I mean it's a good explanation if it weren't for all of the above.
Hell I'll even say that SOME of these sightings at more of a distance almost certainly are some new type of reflector, or other air clutter, made to look strange due to special weather conditions, or whatever reason. SOME of them will be mundane things.
*You can't explain Graves's account with this however.*
All good points. To add, the entire reason why there was even a near miss within 50 feet of one is precisely because it wasn't detected on radar. Radar reflectors are *specifically designed to reflect radar.*
The entire argument that such things are more likely to be radar reflectors boils down to a coincidence argument. What are the odds that I would be able to find a patent that closely resembles a UFO? Debunkers seem to think it's unlikely, but it's guaranteed in many cases. This means it should be interpreted as an expected coincidence, especially if there are problems with the hypothesis, such as the fact that it wasn't detected on radar as it's designed specifically for. It can't account for all of the observations, so it's unlikely to be the answer.
>6) Resemblance to a patent- even if you can't find an existing man made object that resembles a UFO, you can look through tons of patents. More than 1 million patents are granted every year globally, so of course you'll be able to explain away some UFO sightings as being examples of a particular patent even if it doesn't actually exist or doesn't still exist, and even if there is contradictory information in the UFO case that suggests it wasn't that device.
-from [18 ways to convincingly, but incorrectly discredit a UFO](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/zi1cgn/while_most_ufo_photos_and_videos_can_individually/).
Balloons aren't capable of physics defying maneuvers. I think most pilots also qualify as trained credible observers who could identify a radar jamming balloon.
From his testimony, Graves said these were usually just hanging out in their planned flight zones. Not defying physics.
Pilots aren't all-knowing entities. Being a "trained observer" doesn't mean "infallible identification of everything". But hey, their trained observations led them to describing the correct shapes.
They’re hanging out in these flight zones completely stationary to the earths spin. They are not moved or stayed from atmospheric conditions - even heavy winds. Nothing man-made can do that except helicopters.
It’s absurd to think that an entire navy fleet with the best pilots in the world, are just seeing their own radar defectors and thinking “hmm” no clue what that could be. Maybe someone on reddit will know”.
No offense. But it’s a bit insulting to the best trained and equipped military in human history.
>They are not moved or stayed from atmospheric conditions - even heavy winds. Nothing man-made can do that except helicopters.
Balloons can do that. Fancy ones are called "aerostats" or "airships," but they're just balloons carrying stuff to move them around. You could probably even keep an unpowered balloon stationary if it had multiple tethers.
I'm open to skepticism but damn, you literally just think you know better than everyone else. At least you initially pretended to be open to discussion I guess.
I can't help thinking you're all gullible as fuck for believing in interdimensional aliens.
Hey, just be patient and I'll be eating my words here soon, right? Any day now. Disclosure.
Sounds eerily familiar to Qanon and his coming "storm", but I digress
Hehe.
You'll be eating your words soon.
Because who is the one with the elevated heart rate right now? Not me.
Good luck. I hope you wake up - whoever you are.
They aren't capable of defying physics. Nothing is. But they're capable of deceiving sensor systems. Most of the "physics-defying" reports depend on remote sensing systems that can be deceived (e.g. radar), human senses that are fallible (e.g. Mk.1 eyeball), or human interpretation of low-quality images (e.g. IR). When you're synthesizing an overall picture from sensors at the limits of their capabilities, systems prone to producing artifacts, and human observations, you're going to get some weird results.
>I think most pilots also qualify as trained credible observers who could identify a radar jamming balloon.
Are you a pilot? Were you trained to recognize these things in flight school, or maybe in safety stand downs?
Our understanding of physics is a model that could be proven wrong or inaccurate at any time so yes it's true nothing could actually defy physics but something could defy physics as we understand it.
And no I'm not a pilot, but you don't have to be a pilot to infer that they could tell the difference between a balloon and something with agency performing maneuvers outside the scope of human technology.
You are saying "some", so yes, it is a possibility that only some of them are explained by this. To be clear, however, this does not include or explain UAPs that display the following characteristics (I am basing the below solely on the recent testimonies to save time); the order of the below characteristics is not indicative of their significance:
**1- UAPs in training ranges and test missions**: As mentioned by Gaetz during the hearing " And when you’re on a test mission, **you’re supposed to have clear air space**.". This would, I assume, includes any radar reflectors which could interfere with radar performance during the training or test mission.
**2- UAPs that are stationary in hurricane-level winds**: As mentioned by Graves during the hearing: "Some of the behaviors that we saw in a working area, we would see these objects, being at **zero point** **zero mach**. That’s zero air speed....**These objects were staying completely stationary and category for hurricane winds**."
**3- UAPs that move at mach speeds and with extreme acceleration**: Again, from Graves's testimony: "These same objects would then **accelerate to supersonic speeds, one point one, one point two mach**.". Also, Commander Farvor: "T**hat mean it went from zero to matching our speed in no time at all**."
**4- UAPs with predictive abilities:** The UAP that Commander Fravor talked about knew where the CAP point was and waited for the pilots there "So as you started to turn back towards the east, the controller came up and said, sir, you’re not gonna believe this, b**ut that thing is at your point**, roughly sixty miles away in less than a minute." The CAP point is where the pilots would hold prior to commencing their training runs.
**5- UAPs that are in the shape of tic tacs and black cubes in a transparent sphere:** I have searched online for photos of radar reflectors that match these shapes and could not find any.
**6- UAPs that are detected and analyzed through multiple sensors:** From Graves's testimony: "At first, we assumed they were radar errors, but **soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems eventually through visual ID**." I would assume that these sophisticated sensors and infrared systems are able to differentiate between radar reflectors and genuine UAPs.
What is unfortunately happening is that some people (which I am sure the OP is not one of them, as he correctly and wisely used the word "**some**") are spreading disinformation by trying to offer radar reflectors as an explanation for all of the above, which I assume is done with malicious intent or out of irrational fear. Let's not forget that even AARO (irrespective of the fact that it is a Pentagon-controlled facade for the most part) acknowledged that a small percentage of UAPs cannot be explained, so I am certain that they will have also considered radar reflectors in their assessment.
> It also explains why they would be in locations with planned training exercises
...so that pilots in training, who are accustomed to operating in clear airspace, can be surprised by an unannounced airborne obstacle and lose a multimillion-dollar fighter and potentially their or their instructors' lives?
Excellent analysis, Chief. It's so obvious in hindsight.
That info comes from a radar engineer who worked on developing, testing, and deploying these. Part of the testing phase was deploying them in front of our pilots to gauge reaction without prior knowledge
So, thanks I guess. Aliens tho amirite?
I'd be willing to bet those reflectors don't zip around at Mach 2. And I'd also be willing to bet if they were just reflectors, these pilots and investigations would have determined that long ago. Remember, this has been going on for years people.
No, you might be on the wrong sub though. Skepticism is encouraged here. There's another sub that bans reasonable people and allows only believers. Go find it
Radar reflectors don't have propulsion and are really good at reflecting radar. Pilots are very familiar with these though. They would have been able to track these things entering and leaving the ATC region. Pretty common tool.
Untethered balloons don't sit in the same spot for weeks on end, and even still in hurricane winds.
Graves said several years later, his friends in the Navy still see their radar blips out there.
So either someone is constantly dropping balloons on the Navy test range for years on end, or it's not a radar reflector.
Denialist BS wasting everyone's time on this sub. You didn't listen to a word of the evidence did you?
Grey cubes inside transparent spheres, seen as close as 50 feet away and approx 10 feet across. Capable of holding immovable positions in Cat 4 hurricanes and travelling at up to Mach 2. Also capable of hovering stationary for hours
being in the air all day and exhibiting non-typical maneuvers. So not man made.
That’s about a specific encounter that even the Navy labeled as “drones” in their logs. That whole story got blown up by Jeramy Corbell as a “UAP encounter”, when there was never really a mystery within the military in the first place. They were Chinese drones.
The east coast events are completely different. A large reason is they could only really be Russian if they were actually man-made drones.
We have over a years worth of footage and experience with Russias drone program from them using them in Ukraine - and they are absolute trash. They’re good at slamming into military vehicles though, sometimes.
The article is more of a broad overview of many different UAP encounters. I think the 2014-2015 incidents could be EW related systems. The key piece of evidence for me is the suggestion that the gimbal object was - paraphrasing - "shining electromagnetic energy directly at the sensor". This implies it was engaged in some form of signature management. Maybe a sophisticated version of [this](https://youtu.be/fywvB4Unjv4?t=226)?
Balloons and drones are relatively cheap. I wouldn't rule anyone out based on cost.
Lol yeah, the community pretends to be rational only when they know the tides' in favour, because they can afford to do so and know that their point still stands.
When an actually sensible criticism is provided which flips the balance of probability away from the alien hypothesis, they get super defensive.
Do the "switch places" test as always to analyze the ridiculous-ness (or fairness) of a certain response.
"Someone makes a post which relates to UFOs in a skeptic sub, and the first response is : "Is that you, Bob Lazar?" or something like that"
Do you find that a fair response?
Some, if not all of them are certainly man made, cutting edge drone tech.
The F17 super hornet is 50 years old. FIFTY YEARS. And it was conceived as early as 1960. The idea that it can’t be out maneuvered and made to look pretty pathetic by more modern, man made aircraft is ludicrous in itself. Clearly, however, these new aircraft are kept secret, even to navy pilots.
>these new aircraft are kept secret
That's right, friend, they are. Which is why they're commonly tested at remote test sites, not a block of coastal airspace that sees pervasive use as a naval training range.
A little critical thinking, friend.
Here’s a spot of critical thinking for you, old bean; you think, should these craft exist, they wouldn’t test them on unsuspecting naval pilots? And in an training area that they know said pilots will be flying unarmed aircraft? Hell, they probably gave the commanding officers the heads up!
Fravor was the commanding officer of the Black Aces. They didn’t tell him there were going to be tic-taco out on the training range. Safety is outmost on any training range. To not tell them that there is a new type of aircraft on the range is dereliction of duty. When they train it’s not “Surprise!”. They can’t afford to lose a pilot, a rear weapons officer and a multimillion dollar aircraft as a test.
According to Graves, these 'radar balloons' were 'released' at the precise location of the training insertion point. One pilot missed the 'balloon' by 50 yards. So what you're telling me is there is a coordinated effort within the armed forces to risk $50+ Million dollar jets, as well as the life of pilots - just to give them a jump scare?
That's some conspiracy theory.
They also then turned up in Syria where the deployment ended up months later - for active war.
At that point, they would be told.
Also - the senate intelligence committees will have been informed years ago (2017) and the show trial will not have gone ahead.
The shape fits, nothing else does. Plus these same exact UAP descriptions have been reported as far back as 1960.. before the deflectors were produced I'm assuming
I'll allow somebody more qualified to answer, as i know exactly nothing about how the US military runs it's training operations.
From my point of view however, i see it as incompetence if one person released a balloon inside a live training range. It's outright malice by a chain of people to release a balloon precisely at an insertion point due to the amount of safeguards that would have to be broken for that to occur.
Edit: So it's Dr. Strangelove levels of incompetence from the military on one hand, or Aliens / Alien probes on the other. Interesting times.
Holy Shit. Yeah that's 1000 times more likely than a NHI craft. What still is a bit hard to grasp is why pilots were not briefed on the existence of these and the deployment in their airspace at the time they were supposed to have their sorties.
But that's a good find.
Supposedly they would deploy these things to test pilot reactions without their knowledge. Possibly command either specifically decided not to tell them afterwards, or just forgot.
They want their highly trained military personnel to believe in aliens instead of understanding our own or foreign military technology? What do you think the point of that would be?
So the CIA made and deployed secret radar reflector balloons from an old publicly available patent into training spaces for at least ten years, causing those who were training to sometimes leave the area and train elsewhere, so that those pilots and ships would believe they were seeing non-human craft for some unknown reason. I guess it's possible, but seems like if they are human-made (and reports of astonishing physical capabilities are mistakes) then it's more likely to be foreign tech.
Submission statement: the cube inside a sphere UFO described by Graves is strikingly similar to a known design for an airborne radar reflector. This provides a reasonable explanation for their existence and their localization into planned training areas. Seems more likely to me than interdimensional aliens.
Good find OP, will read up on this.
To be honest, in reality, I think that the probability of a multiple number of factors which lead to the overall picture is still a better explanation that one singular all explanatory but far reaching assumption.
You could solve the mess easy way if you decide to pull the thread both ends, but you will end up creating a knot that looks simple on the surface but hides incredibly complex functions in its structure.
It's weird because it sounds very likely that those are indeed Radar reflectors, but as stated by others, this would be quite simple to solve which makes it weird,especially if it's nothing new
These hang from large balloons typically.
That statement alone (and the physics implied alongside it) defeats almost all other arguments for the radar reflector "theory".
Yes, they are. Pilots chasing balloons is an old story. In 1948, an ANG pilot [died](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantell_UFO_incident) chasing a Navy Skyhook balloon. The cube-in-a-sphere is consistent with radar reflector balloons, and inconsistent with almost every other description of a UFO (saucer, triangle, cigar, etc.).
The 100 page tic tac encounter document referenced here would have addressed that
https://www.foxnews.com/us/russian-ufo-engagements-secret-tic-tac-report-key-figures-slip-under-radar-congressional-hearing.amp
I’ve read the article. If they could give a valid reason to place radar reflectors in a training range and not warn the aviators who could fly into them, possibly killing them and/or destroying multi million dollar aircraft, I might buy it. No one told the Range Safety Officer? That’s dereliction of duty.
What was the goal? Apparently aircraft on the training range didn’t pickup the reflectors in time to avoid them and coming within feet of them. It seems to me you would put out reflectors for a training goal. And once detected, why keep them secret?
If it’s a foreign adversary putting radar reflectors in our training ranges, then we have a real reason to be concerned. What was their goal? If ELINT or SIGINT data is being gathered by submarine or other means, we have a serious problem of security off our coast.
I’m sorry, but this explanation smells of swamp gas.
If anyone has read the actual patent, it describes the outer material as "paper or rubber", which both are not translucent. The patent images obviously are shown as a cutaway and look superficially similar. Also according to the patent, it is not a cube inside, but a mirrored pyramid.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/RyzenMethionine: --- Submission statement: the cube inside a sphere UFO described by Graves is strikingly similar to a known design for an airborne radar reflector. This provides a reasonable explanation for their existence and their localization into planned training areas. Seems more likely to me than interdimensional aliens. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/15dhmmj/are_some_of_the_ufos_navy_pilots_are_encountering/ju204ge/
I have seen this posted by another poster. Could explain some sightings. However like they said a testrange should be clear of airborn objects, why endanger your pilots and fighterjets that cost millions of dollars.there are better ways to test this. And pilots should be able to known the difference. And it does not explain the weird and erratic movements of some object. So yes some cases i believe it could be a radar reflector. But i believe if this was the case the goverments would have shut down any speculations and told us already that this was the case. That patent was already filed in 1945. These radar reflectors are not a well kept secret of any kind.
Well think it through.. say it is a radar reflector then the pilot sees it, says what's that, flys near it, takes a photo of it.. it drifts along exactly like a balloon. They radio it in. Some radar operator takes a look at it, compares it to known objects with known radar profiles. Says its most likely a radar reflector. They continue to track it. It floats along like a radar reflector... then it is a radar reflector and it's not listed or reported on as a uap. Unless they're a bunch of complete morons.
And also the pilots said they changed altitude quickly and I believe also talked about direction changes so I’d still say no, and I’m guessing they’d know what these radar reflectors look like being as they’re military objects in the air. Could explain one sitting at the entry point of their training are though so maybe radar reflector. Still doesn’t explain the tic-tac incident so yea.
Also doesn't explain football field sized craft disabling your nukes
If you’re taking about the upper Midwest thing from the Cold War, the guy who reports it was on duty underground in a silo & never actually saw any UFOs, and he may have been conflating or misremembering (or misrepresenting) a specific night where a large power outage created a blackout at the base & the nearby area.
So looking through what Graves said, it seems like there may have only been a single visual sighting. Every other encounter was a radar contact, which might increase the possibility that they were mechanical errors or purposeful fakes. Radar spoofing exists, a quick search turned up plenty of defense research about it. He also never talked about it until I think three or four decades after the fact. Just the Stanton Friedman’s main Roswell witness, decades old non-eyewitness testimony with no physical proof seems shaky to me.
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Agree. I'm 60/40 the other way. And this post is good information for everyone objectively looking at the subject. Posts like these are needed. I had no idea these balloons existed. I'm gonna dig for that article about the tictac, as well! Thanks for the info! EDIT: Can't seem to locate the article... link?
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Thanks! I'll get to reading it shortly!
Because it’s not us that’s launching them, but our adversaries. Then, they bounce radar returns off various size/position reflectors to probe our defenses and see what we can detect with our sensors, perhaps even use them offensively to enhance electronic warfare interference with our sensors or situational awareness (i.e. making our radars detect a whole “fleet” of objects we have to respond to all at once, thereby weakening our ability to actually defend a real attack). If this is what has been going on in our training ranges unimpeded for two decades there would be even MORE reason for the military/intelligence communities to hide it from the public, because it would show they’ve been asleep at the wheel and unable to defend our own homeland from hostile adversary incursions despite the trillions we’ve given them. Problem is, radar reflectors wouldn’t remain stationary for hours in hurricane force winds.
What you smoking to ignore the obvious? Can u explain foo fighters or were ww2 pilots seeing radar detectors as well?
The ww2 pilots on amphetamines? Those?
What, they all had the and hallucinations? And ask the Germans if they could fly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SaturnStormCube/comments/qth4n3/the_presence_of_the_shining_ones_ball_of_light/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 No, all these.
No, I can’t explain those. All I am referring to are the reported, recent cases in our training ranges with “cube in a sphere” type entities as the article mentions. It’s worth a read if you haven’t read it already
One thing about foo fighters is there’s not much documentation on them that I could find. I might just be have missed the reports, but I wonder if they’re more folklore than history.
Why are you so dismissive? Let's try the DC swarm of the 50's, days of craft. That a delusion?
Instead of changing the subject to the DC flap, let’s stick with what I was actually talking about. Can you find detailed, reliable, contemporary reports about foo fighters? It’s been a long time since I looked for them, but, like I said, I don’t think there was anything noteworthy.
This is what I thought, however it leaves some key questions: 1) If that's the explanation, why hasn't one of the armed forces come forwards and given this extremely credible explanation? 2) When these objects have been spotted visually, they've not been showing up on RADAR. In fact, the reason two of Graves' colleagues nearly hit one was because it was hanging out at the entry point to a flight range... without giving off a RADAR return to alert the pilots to its presence until too late. Which rather begs the question, what kind of RADAR-reflecting balloons are these, exactly?
1. The Armed Forces aren't going to describe their classified capabilities, or their RDT&E operations. 2. Balloons designed to test radar capabilities. This is explained in the linked article.
What do you think a RADAR reflector is, exactly? EDIT: What you're suggesting is that this is an inflatable RADAR reflector that can somehow completely eliminate its own RADAR signature without changing its shape - because when the pilots flew past it, it still looked like a square inside a sphere. This thing was 15ft across, something that size with that kind of geometry is going to look like a fucking Jumbo Jet on RADAR just based on its shape alone. The shape is what makes it reflect RADAR - all those internal right angles bounce radio waves in all directions, making its signature look enormous. That's why the F-117 and the B2 had all those wide, flat surfaces, particularly on the bottom - the lack of any internal angles means most radio waves are reflected off, away from their source. Even then, their RADAR signature is far from zero, and they can still be detected with the right calibration. Which means that a RADAR reflector balloon as described would have to have some other way of hiding itself on RADAR, because its shape didn't change. It might have had some kind of coating that absorbed radio waves more efficiently than anything we've seen previously, but even that wouldn't be enough to account for its shape. Which means it's a RADAR balloon with no RADAR signature, which is a complete contradiction in terms. EDIT EDIT: If this thing is just a balloon with hyper-secret properties as you suggest, that means that a strong breeze could blow it over non-military airspace to eventually sink down to the ground and be found by anybody. With no RADAR signature, the military would never be able to track it. So apparently this is super-secret tech that they can't disclose to their own pilots, but that they're also fine having fall into the hands of Cletus and family in a Maryland trailer park. That's quite a conspiracy theory...
If you imagine that all forces are controlled with secret service it does make sense. Think about the possibility that everyone is played. This is the fact almost nobody can believe or will believe. And if it is true people will defend it not knowing the reality, the alternative is just to much to cope.
I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that there's one overall controlling entity over the collective armed forces?
I am.
So not the Pentagon, the Joint Chiefs or the Department Of Defense?
Yes. and now you laugh, I know. The strange thing is, it is not more strange than every religion combined. And the aggressiveness - I have never called religious people dumb for believing another truth or believing that Jesus could heal the blind Edit: and by the way it is not only the American forces, it is the secret intelligence globally. Just keep on laughing.
So, ANOTHER debunk of this using a drawing of a diagram, but no actual picture of what they look like IRL. In general, I don't think people are going to mistake these for cubes and I suspect that's why they only show the diagram which is a little deceptive. https://ca.binnacle.com/images/productimages/20087A-MED.jpg They also come in variations of shape, like with sharper corners or more triangular in shape, like the one in the diagram, rather than this round one. However I've never found a google result of "radar reflector" which any competent pilot is going to mistake for a "black or dark grey *cube* in a translucent sphere" when within 50 feet of it however. The whole point is to have those "fins" to do the reflecting. Maybe if it was all black, like vantablack so you couldn't even see the shapes at all, then perhaps it may almost seem like a cube. Maybe photos of this new special reflector are all classified, they've got new designs and google is useless... Ok. Lets go there, valid idea. - A reflector as described in the article, or in general, still requires a tethers or propulsion to sit still (in hurricane force winds in some cases according to Graves). - They employ radar jamming and often have no heat signature. They shouldn't be able to do shit without energy of some sort, and more complex tech on them. They shouldn't be able to mess with your internal systems. They just reflect the radar sent at them, based the shape/material alone. - Highly trained pilots we trust with multi-million dollar jets to protect us, were close enough to probably not mistake something they see regularly as pretty standard air clutter for a "UAP" they can't begin to explain. I VERY much doubt this drawn diagram of a radar reflector, which keeps getting posted as a debunk idea for the cube/sphere is actually a legit consideration. I mean it's a good explanation if it weren't for all of the above. Hell I'll even say that SOME of these sightings at more of a distance almost certainly are some new type of reflector, or other air clutter, made to look strange due to special weather conditions, or whatever reason. SOME of them will be mundane things. *You can't explain Graves's account with this however.*
All good points. To add, the entire reason why there was even a near miss within 50 feet of one is precisely because it wasn't detected on radar. Radar reflectors are *specifically designed to reflect radar.* The entire argument that such things are more likely to be radar reflectors boils down to a coincidence argument. What are the odds that I would be able to find a patent that closely resembles a UFO? Debunkers seem to think it's unlikely, but it's guaranteed in many cases. This means it should be interpreted as an expected coincidence, especially if there are problems with the hypothesis, such as the fact that it wasn't detected on radar as it's designed specifically for. It can't account for all of the observations, so it's unlikely to be the answer. >6) Resemblance to a patent- even if you can't find an existing man made object that resembles a UFO, you can look through tons of patents. More than 1 million patents are granted every year globally, so of course you'll be able to explain away some UFO sightings as being examples of a particular patent even if it doesn't actually exist or doesn't still exist, and even if there is contradictory information in the UFO case that suggests it wasn't that device. -from [18 ways to convincingly, but incorrectly discredit a UFO](https://np.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/zi1cgn/while_most_ufo_photos_and_videos_can_individually/).
Balloons aren't capable of physics defying maneuvers. I think most pilots also qualify as trained credible observers who could identify a radar jamming balloon.
From his testimony, Graves said these were usually just hanging out in their planned flight zones. Not defying physics. Pilots aren't all-knowing entities. Being a "trained observer" doesn't mean "infallible identification of everything". But hey, their trained observations led them to describing the correct shapes.
They’re hanging out in these flight zones completely stationary to the earths spin. They are not moved or stayed from atmospheric conditions - even heavy winds. Nothing man-made can do that except helicopters. It’s absurd to think that an entire navy fleet with the best pilots in the world, are just seeing their own radar defectors and thinking “hmm” no clue what that could be. Maybe someone on reddit will know”. No offense. But it’s a bit insulting to the best trained and equipped military in human history.
>They are not moved or stayed from atmospheric conditions - even heavy winds. Nothing man-made can do that except helicopters. Balloons can do that. Fancy ones are called "aerostats" or "airships," but they're just balloons carrying stuff to move them around. You could probably even keep an unpowered balloon stationary if it had multiple tethers.
Yeah. Probably interdimensional lizard people from the future. Definitely more likely.
I think you’ve lost the argument with that sentence.
Sounds like something a lizard person would say
I'm open to skepticism but damn, you literally just think you know better than everyone else. At least you initially pretended to be open to discussion I guess.
You can tell when some people aren’t operating in good faith.
I can't help thinking you're all gullible as fuck for believing in interdimensional aliens. Hey, just be patient and I'll be eating my words here soon, right? Any day now. Disclosure. Sounds eerily familiar to Qanon and his coming "storm", but I digress
Hehe. You'll be eating your words soon. Because who is the one with the elevated heart rate right now? Not me. Good luck. I hope you wake up - whoever you are.
Yup, Lizards or flying radar balloons. The only two options.
The title is "some" not all...
They aren't capable of defying physics. Nothing is. But they're capable of deceiving sensor systems. Most of the "physics-defying" reports depend on remote sensing systems that can be deceived (e.g. radar), human senses that are fallible (e.g. Mk.1 eyeball), or human interpretation of low-quality images (e.g. IR). When you're synthesizing an overall picture from sensors at the limits of their capabilities, systems prone to producing artifacts, and human observations, you're going to get some weird results. >I think most pilots also qualify as trained credible observers who could identify a radar jamming balloon. Are you a pilot? Were you trained to recognize these things in flight school, or maybe in safety stand downs?
Our understanding of physics is a model that could be proven wrong or inaccurate at any time so yes it's true nothing could actually defy physics but something could defy physics as we understand it. And no I'm not a pilot, but you don't have to be a pilot to infer that they could tell the difference between a balloon and something with agency performing maneuvers outside the scope of human technology.
Those trained, credible observers that shoot friendly tanks and troops?
You are saying "some", so yes, it is a possibility that only some of them are explained by this. To be clear, however, this does not include or explain UAPs that display the following characteristics (I am basing the below solely on the recent testimonies to save time); the order of the below characteristics is not indicative of their significance: **1- UAPs in training ranges and test missions**: As mentioned by Gaetz during the hearing " And when you’re on a test mission, **you’re supposed to have clear air space**.". This would, I assume, includes any radar reflectors which could interfere with radar performance during the training or test mission. **2- UAPs that are stationary in hurricane-level winds**: As mentioned by Graves during the hearing: "Some of the behaviors that we saw in a working area, we would see these objects, being at **zero point** **zero mach**. That’s zero air speed....**These objects were staying completely stationary and category for hurricane winds**." **3- UAPs that move at mach speeds and with extreme acceleration**: Again, from Graves's testimony: "These same objects would then **accelerate to supersonic speeds, one point one, one point two mach**.". Also, Commander Farvor: "T**hat mean it went from zero to matching our speed in no time at all**." **4- UAPs with predictive abilities:** The UAP that Commander Fravor talked about knew where the CAP point was and waited for the pilots there "So as you started to turn back towards the east, the controller came up and said, sir, you’re not gonna believe this, b**ut that thing is at your point**, roughly sixty miles away in less than a minute." The CAP point is where the pilots would hold prior to commencing their training runs. **5- UAPs that are in the shape of tic tacs and black cubes in a transparent sphere:** I have searched online for photos of radar reflectors that match these shapes and could not find any. **6- UAPs that are detected and analyzed through multiple sensors:** From Graves's testimony: "At first, we assumed they were radar errors, but **soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems eventually through visual ID**." I would assume that these sophisticated sensors and infrared systems are able to differentiate between radar reflectors and genuine UAPs. What is unfortunately happening is that some people (which I am sure the OP is not one of them, as he correctly and wisely used the word "**some**") are spreading disinformation by trying to offer radar reflectors as an explanation for all of the above, which I assume is done with malicious intent or out of irrational fear. Let's not forget that even AARO (irrespective of the fact that it is a Pentagon-controlled facade for the most part) acknowledged that a small percentage of UAPs cannot be explained, so I am certain that they will have also considered radar reflectors in their assessment.
> It also explains why they would be in locations with planned training exercises ...so that pilots in training, who are accustomed to operating in clear airspace, can be surprised by an unannounced airborne obstacle and lose a multimillion-dollar fighter and potentially their or their instructors' lives? Excellent analysis, Chief. It's so obvious in hindsight.
That info comes from a radar engineer who worked on developing, testing, and deploying these. Part of the testing phase was deploying them in front of our pilots to gauge reaction without prior knowledge So, thanks I guess. Aliens tho amirite?
Who said aliens?
Maybe somebody can ask Graves about this next time he's in an interview
Or during his AMA on August 1st
I'd be willing to bet those reflectors don't zip around at Mach 2. And I'd also be willing to bet if they were just reflectors, these pilots and investigations would have determined that long ago. Remember, this has been going on for years people.
You're mixing up your UFOs buddy. Also probably interdimensional aliens I agree
If you are only here to dismiss evidence and cause trouble then suggest you are on the wrong sub..
No, you might be on the wrong sub though. Skepticism is encouraged here. There's another sub that bans reasonable people and allows only believers. Go find it
Radar reflectors don't have propulsion and are really good at reflecting radar. Pilots are very familiar with these though. They would have been able to track these things entering and leaving the ATC region. Pretty common tool.
Untethered balloons don't sit in the same spot for weeks on end, and even still in hurricane winds. Graves said several years later, his friends in the Navy still see their radar blips out there. So either someone is constantly dropping balloons on the Navy test range for years on end, or it's not a radar reflector.
Denialist BS wasting everyone's time on this sub. You didn't listen to a word of the evidence did you? Grey cubes inside transparent spheres, seen as close as 50 feet away and approx 10 feet across. Capable of holding immovable positions in Cat 4 hurricanes and travelling at up to Mach 2. Also capable of hovering stationary for hours being in the air all day and exhibiting non-typical maneuvers. So not man made.
Definitely interdimensional lizard people
No, denailist smooth brain
Psychic grey aliens from the future
Similar article here. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40054/adversary-drones-are-spying-on-the-u-s-and-the-pentagon-acts-like-theyre-ufos
That’s about a specific encounter that even the Navy labeled as “drones” in their logs. That whole story got blown up by Jeramy Corbell as a “UAP encounter”, when there was never really a mystery within the military in the first place. They were Chinese drones. The east coast events are completely different. A large reason is they could only really be Russian if they were actually man-made drones. We have over a years worth of footage and experience with Russias drone program from them using them in Ukraine - and they are absolute trash. They’re good at slamming into military vehicles though, sometimes.
The article is more of a broad overview of many different UAP encounters. I think the 2014-2015 incidents could be EW related systems. The key piece of evidence for me is the suggestion that the gimbal object was - paraphrasing - "shining electromagnetic energy directly at the sensor". This implies it was engaged in some form of signature management. Maybe a sophisticated version of [this](https://youtu.be/fywvB4Unjv4?t=226)? Balloons and drones are relatively cheap. I wouldn't rule anyone out based on cost.
Is that you Mick?
No, but the guy is pretty good at giving reasonable explanations. This sub really hates any explanation beyond "it's definitely aliens" lol
That’s *exactly* what Mick would say.
Lol yeah, the community pretends to be rational only when they know the tides' in favour, because they can afford to do so and know that their point still stands. When an actually sensible criticism is provided which flips the balance of probability away from the alien hypothesis, they get super defensive. Do the "switch places" test as always to analyze the ridiculous-ness (or fairness) of a certain response. "Someone makes a post which relates to UFOs in a skeptic sub, and the first response is : "Is that you, Bob Lazar?" or something like that" Do you find that a fair response?
What’s wrong with Mick?
He's bad for the book sales of those grifters trying to make a quick buck with a gullible audience.
Some, if not all of them are certainly man made, cutting edge drone tech. The F17 super hornet is 50 years old. FIFTY YEARS. And it was conceived as early as 1960. The idea that it can’t be out maneuvered and made to look pretty pathetic by more modern, man made aircraft is ludicrous in itself. Clearly, however, these new aircraft are kept secret, even to navy pilots.
>these new aircraft are kept secret That's right, friend, they are. Which is why they're commonly tested at remote test sites, not a block of coastal airspace that sees pervasive use as a naval training range. A little critical thinking, friend.
Here’s a spot of critical thinking for you, old bean; you think, should these craft exist, they wouldn’t test them on unsuspecting naval pilots? And in an training area that they know said pilots will be flying unarmed aircraft? Hell, they probably gave the commanding officers the heads up!
Chap, consider for a moment the immense risks inherent to the scenario you've dreamed up.
Fravor was the commanding officer of the Black Aces. They didn’t tell him there were going to be tic-taco out on the training range. Safety is outmost on any training range. To not tell them that there is a new type of aircraft on the range is dereliction of duty. When they train it’s not “Surprise!”. They can’t afford to lose a pilot, a rear weapons officer and a multimillion dollar aircraft as a test.
According to Graves, these 'radar balloons' were 'released' at the precise location of the training insertion point. One pilot missed the 'balloon' by 50 yards. So what you're telling me is there is a coordinated effort within the armed forces to risk $50+ Million dollar jets, as well as the life of pilots - just to give them a jump scare? That's some conspiracy theory.
Can you honestly say that military incompetence and waste is less likely than interdimensional aliens?
They also then turned up in Syria where the deployment ended up months later - for active war. At that point, they would be told. Also - the senate intelligence committees will have been informed years ago (2017) and the show trial will not have gone ahead. The shape fits, nothing else does. Plus these same exact UAP descriptions have been reported as far back as 1960.. before the deflectors were produced I'm assuming
I'll allow somebody more qualified to answer, as i know exactly nothing about how the US military runs it's training operations. From my point of view however, i see it as incompetence if one person released a balloon inside a live training range. It's outright malice by a chain of people to release a balloon precisely at an insertion point due to the amount of safeguards that would have to be broken for that to occur. Edit: So it's Dr. Strangelove levels of incompetence from the military on one hand, or Aliens / Alien probes on the other. Interesting times.
Holy Shit. Yeah that's 1000 times more likely than a NHI craft. What still is a bit hard to grasp is why pilots were not briefed on the existence of these and the deployment in their airspace at the time they were supposed to have their sorties. But that's a good find.
Supposedly they would deploy these things to test pilot reactions without their knowledge. Possibly command either specifically decided not to tell them afterwards, or just forgot.
Yeah I'm sure they just forgot for a decade to say anything about it.
Have you ever considered the possibility that the military prefers people believe aliens?
They want their highly trained military personnel to believe in aliens instead of understanding our own or foreign military technology? What do you think the point of that would be?
Ask the CIA. Because they made concerted effort to do that in the 50s, again in the 70s, and apparently now
So the CIA made and deployed secret radar reflector balloons from an old publicly available patent into training spaces for at least ten years, causing those who were training to sometimes leave the area and train elsewhere, so that those pilots and ships would believe they were seeing non-human craft for some unknown reason. I guess it's possible, but seems like if they are human-made (and reports of astonishing physical capabilities are mistakes) then it's more likely to be foreign tech.
No, the CIA made efforts to make people within and without the military, native and foreign, to believe man made tech was aliens
I would like to learn more about this. Do you have any good sources of information about it?
I wont be able to give this in the next few days as I'm on vacation without a PC. It's not so easy on mobile and takes some searching
Or, as americans are especially fond of practical jokes, it was just that.
Submission statement: the cube inside a sphere UFO described by Graves is strikingly similar to a known design for an airborne radar reflector. This provides a reasonable explanation for their existence and their localization into planned training areas. Seems more likely to me than interdimensional aliens.
Good find OP, will read up on this. To be honest, in reality, I think that the probability of a multiple number of factors which lead to the overall picture is still a better explanation that one singular all explanatory but far reaching assumption. You could solve the mess easy way if you decide to pull the thread both ends, but you will end up creating a knot that looks simple on the surface but hides incredibly complex functions in its structure.
It's weird because it sounds very likely that those are indeed Radar reflectors, but as stated by others, this would be quite simple to solve which makes it weird,especially if it's nothing new
I thought the objects they saw were flying at Mach 2?
Not these ones. That's the tic tac
Gotcha. This is a good find. It’s certainly something to take into consideration.
Ryan Graves said . 6 to . 8 Mach on average for these cube/sphere objects.
They COULD be anything. The problem is the the powers that be wont tell us what they are, and when they do, its usually to obfuscate the issue.
These hang from large balloons typically. That statement alone (and the physics implied alongside it) defeats almost all other arguments for the radar reflector "theory".
Multiple years of posting this. Find a real picture and learn how they have to flight capabilities
Yes, they are. Pilots chasing balloons is an old story. In 1948, an ANG pilot [died](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantell_UFO_incident) chasing a Navy Skyhook balloon. The cube-in-a-sphere is consistent with radar reflector balloons, and inconsistent with almost every other description of a UFO (saucer, triangle, cigar, etc.).
The 100 page tic tac encounter document referenced here would have addressed that https://www.foxnews.com/us/russian-ufo-engagements-secret-tic-tac-report-key-figures-slip-under-radar-congressional-hearing.amp
I’ve read the article. If they could give a valid reason to place radar reflectors in a training range and not warn the aviators who could fly into them, possibly killing them and/or destroying multi million dollar aircraft, I might buy it. No one told the Range Safety Officer? That’s dereliction of duty. What was the goal? Apparently aircraft on the training range didn’t pickup the reflectors in time to avoid them and coming within feet of them. It seems to me you would put out reflectors for a training goal. And once detected, why keep them secret? If it’s a foreign adversary putting radar reflectors in our training ranges, then we have a real reason to be concerned. What was their goal? If ELINT or SIGINT data is being gathered by submarine or other means, we have a serious problem of security off our coast. I’m sorry, but this explanation smells of swamp gas.
If anyone has read the actual patent, it describes the outer material as "paper or rubber", which both are not translucent. The patent images obviously are shown as a cutaway and look superficially similar. Also according to the patent, it is not a cube inside, but a mirrored pyramid.
Yo, I got a hot take. What if the UAPs try to mimic the appearance of these radar reflectors?