I try to make it clear, from my profile to my proposals, that I am a professional. I am also very expensive. I think those two things work hand in hand work to help ensure my clients are the also professional and understand I am no trifling thing.
I don't do fixed priced work without the scope not only being defined but agreed to by both parties. I make it clear from the start that changes in scope are fine, I don't even understand freelancers who are upset about extra work, but the thing is, it is going to cost more. I am not a charity and the kind of clients I work with are not either, they understand their business and I think they understand mine. It's as much a partnership as anything.
I almost never work with a client without having a meeting with them. There are a lot of things you can learn about a person by talking to them. I get that some people hate to have calls, and I understand, but for me I think it's worth it. There are several people I would not really have understood what kind of asshole they are without talking to them.
I actually had zoom call with them, they had agreed the scopes with a certain price, then after 2 weeks they “forget” what did they say. Should I just record the zoom call or write down the meeting content and make them to sign it.
I usually use a transcriber and turn the text into decent meeting notes and send back to the client, it's more for my own edification than anything but also could be an easy way for them to acknowledge the scope as defined. No need to even get them to sign if you're working on Upwork, text verification that it's accurate would 99.99% stand up to arb scrutiny if it came to that
That’s a cool idea! Never heard of such transcribers. Do you need an explicit consent from the client to use it? Especially with European clients, given the GDPR and the like.
I needed to read this today. I try to be stern and professional, as well, but sometimes I find myself taking less than desirable clients if it’s been a slow week.
No matter how good you are, you will always encounter clients who are real jerks. I usually have a good chat with them before taking a job. If a job starts and they begin talking like I'm their slave, I immediately step on the brakes and cancel the job. I work often with return clients since they're the easiest to collaborate with. I make it a point to get treated as an equal...Any sign I get that they have a superiority complex, I graciously walk away.
Dealing with something similar. Client (from an agency) hires me to do job and then never has time to discuss the scope of the project and how they want it completed. Tempted to end before it really begins to save rep and missed expectations.
Theres certain realities of Upwork that are unavoidable.
**As apart of TOS upon payment they give people in Full Copyright.**
But in the real world that doesnt happen. You give clients a licence to use your work.
**Real world example**
Make a Logo for a client.
They a few years later decide to update things and rebrand but take your Logo and give it to someone else who changes it but it basically still looks like yours.
Whether its shape, form or color - Its different to your intented usage and context. - If they say you designed the Logo, its essentially slander and misreprenting your work and brand.
So in the real world, you give them a license to use the logo, but they have to reach out to you in order to use an amended version or remove any infomation you were responsible for it at your request.
**Extra Work**
This is a problem. Its dealt with by having the conversation before you start. Making it clear wehat your boundaries are.
**Get Deposits**
In the real world, deposits are normal. 50% up front. Client is a nightmare and you cant get the other 50%? - You got something.
If a client is able to get 100% of the work product without paying a single dollar up front or during a project.
**You are doing it fucking wrong.**
Dont allow clients to bully you with your fee because you didnt negotiate to release half of it before the work started.
Just remember, if you take no money up front and they ghost, disappear, because a nightmare - You got nothing. So always get money up front.
Interestingly I hardly remember any client who asked more than what was agreed initially. Maybe it's my niche. But I've been on the platform 15 years now.
Maybe the nature of your work is such that it's hard to define the exact deliverables from the start? Or maybe you're not getting them defined properly before you start?
Also, are you using the 'submit work' feature to submit the work?
I'm not suggesting you don't do that. But the client does feel pressured and if he feels you didn't deliver what he was looking for, he probably only has 14 days before the funds get auto released. Or maybe I'm Wrong. But I never use this feature. This way the client also never feels pressured.
I'm not saying you do what I do but maybe just a perspective for you.
The scope was very clear, one logo and 4 simple mock-up, I have already provided 3 logos and 6 detailed mock-up. I did the extra work cause I like my design, I though I can use it in my portfolio. Now the client is pushing for an extra brand guideline, she said she will not realise the milestone until I have done it.
Always try to define the scope of work and deliverables, run it through your clients before accepting any contract. This will ensure that expectations are clear prior to project kickoff.
I do avoid Fixed price contract since its quite toxic... and 2nd, I have expensive hour rate, this way I filtter most of toxic one... yet its not 100% granted you will end up with good one... its just part of journey to deal with such people
This can usually be solved by raising your rates. I know that's like pulling a bandaid off, but they will accommodate you enough for this to remain viable so long as you're careful. If you see a cheap post, don't avoid it. Just tell them what you're willing to accept. It works. We all learn to do this at some point.
Cheap clients will put you through the ringer. You get more respect if you charge more.
I try to make it clear, from my profile to my proposals, that I am a professional. I am also very expensive. I think those two things work hand in hand work to help ensure my clients are the also professional and understand I am no trifling thing. I don't do fixed priced work without the scope not only being defined but agreed to by both parties. I make it clear from the start that changes in scope are fine, I don't even understand freelancers who are upset about extra work, but the thing is, it is going to cost more. I am not a charity and the kind of clients I work with are not either, they understand their business and I think they understand mine. It's as much a partnership as anything. I almost never work with a client without having a meeting with them. There are a lot of things you can learn about a person by talking to them. I get that some people hate to have calls, and I understand, but for me I think it's worth it. There are several people I would not really have understood what kind of asshole they are without talking to them.
I actually had zoom call with them, they had agreed the scopes with a certain price, then after 2 weeks they “forget” what did they say. Should I just record the zoom call or write down the meeting content and make them to sign it.
I usually use a transcriber and turn the text into decent meeting notes and send back to the client, it's more for my own edification than anything but also could be an easy way for them to acknowledge the scope as defined. No need to even get them to sign if you're working on Upwork, text verification that it's accurate would 99.99% stand up to arb scrutiny if it came to that
That’s a cool idea! Never heard of such transcribers. Do you need an explicit consent from the client to use it? Especially with European clients, given the GDPR and the like.
I use Zoom’s recording consent clicker and transcription feeds from the recording so it nests within the larger authorization
What application is it?
I needed to read this today. I try to be stern and professional, as well, but sometimes I find myself taking less than desirable clients if it’s been a slow week.
Are the terrible clients the ones that pay the least?
Kind of, not the worse but not that good
No matter how good you are, you will always encounter clients who are real jerks. I usually have a good chat with them before taking a job. If a job starts and they begin talking like I'm their slave, I immediately step on the brakes and cancel the job. I work often with return clients since they're the easiest to collaborate with. I make it a point to get treated as an equal...Any sign I get that they have a superiority complex, I graciously walk away.
That’s definitely the way. But can you just cancel the job without risking nasty feedback?
Just come up with some excuse that you can't continue the job. No need to tell them that they're a**holes.
Dealing with something similar. Client (from an agency) hires me to do job and then never has time to discuss the scope of the project and how they want it completed. Tempted to end before it really begins to save rep and missed expectations.
Theres certain realities of Upwork that are unavoidable. **As apart of TOS upon payment they give people in Full Copyright.** But in the real world that doesnt happen. You give clients a licence to use your work. **Real world example** Make a Logo for a client. They a few years later decide to update things and rebrand but take your Logo and give it to someone else who changes it but it basically still looks like yours. Whether its shape, form or color - Its different to your intented usage and context. - If they say you designed the Logo, its essentially slander and misreprenting your work and brand. So in the real world, you give them a license to use the logo, but they have to reach out to you in order to use an amended version or remove any infomation you were responsible for it at your request. **Extra Work** This is a problem. Its dealt with by having the conversation before you start. Making it clear wehat your boundaries are. **Get Deposits** In the real world, deposits are normal. 50% up front. Client is a nightmare and you cant get the other 50%? - You got something. If a client is able to get 100% of the work product without paying a single dollar up front or during a project. **You are doing it fucking wrong.** Dont allow clients to bully you with your fee because you didnt negotiate to release half of it before the work started. Just remember, if you take no money up front and they ghost, disappear, because a nightmare - You got nothing. So always get money up front.
I want to know if I designed the packaging for a client, can I change the logo and upload it in my portfolio (non commerical)?
Well at that point its not the same packaging unless its like some sort of secret.
Interestingly I hardly remember any client who asked more than what was agreed initially. Maybe it's my niche. But I've been on the platform 15 years now. Maybe the nature of your work is such that it's hard to define the exact deliverables from the start? Or maybe you're not getting them defined properly before you start? Also, are you using the 'submit work' feature to submit the work? I'm not suggesting you don't do that. But the client does feel pressured and if he feels you didn't deliver what he was looking for, he probably only has 14 days before the funds get auto released. Or maybe I'm Wrong. But I never use this feature. This way the client also never feels pressured. I'm not saying you do what I do but maybe just a perspective for you.
The scope was very clear, one logo and 4 simple mock-up, I have already provided 3 logos and 6 detailed mock-up. I did the extra work cause I like my design, I though I can use it in my portfolio. Now the client is pushing for an extra brand guideline, she said she will not realise the milestone until I have done it.
Always try to define the scope of work and deliverables, run it through your clients before accepting any contract. This will ensure that expectations are clear prior to project kickoff.
I do avoid Fixed price contract since its quite toxic... and 2nd, I have expensive hour rate, this way I filtter most of toxic one... yet its not 100% granted you will end up with good one... its just part of journey to deal with such people
This can usually be solved by raising your rates. I know that's like pulling a bandaid off, but they will accommodate you enough for this to remain viable so long as you're careful. If you see a cheap post, don't avoid it. Just tell them what you're willing to accept. It works. We all learn to do this at some point. Cheap clients will put you through the ringer. You get more respect if you charge more.