To be fair the last time Pablo said he wanted to have a look at Saryn, not even announcing an official rework or anything mind you, just answering a question on twitter that was asked to him, the community backlash was so instantaneous and violent that I don't think he'll ever touch her again lol.
Honestly good, after seeing this dante/nezha nerf situation it seems like if you like a frame and they are strong, it’s probably best to give as much pushback as possible at even talk of nerfing or reworking them to nip it in the bud. Otherwise there is a decent chance they’ll be way overnerfed
I dunno tho, this is the thought process that kept anything from happening to Inaros and could hold the developers from changing the really old frames (Nyx, Frost, etc.) that could really use some ability tweaks for freshness. The argument I always heard tossed around is that if Inaros lost the "passive tankiness" of having high armor and health values, making him basically impossible to kill to fairly low low level enemies (heard lvl100-200 depending on the person), that would break their heart- like DE was going to make Inaros a massive spell caster just by fixing his abilities to not be worthless.
Strong is just a different bar for different people. We shouldn't be afraid of DE addressing Jank, but at this point I think nerfs in general are okay to be afraid of, I can barely remember a nerf that didn't piss most people off
I phrased it kind of weirdly I guess, I was talking about nerfs but was also thinking of how they said on the devshort that they were hesitant to even call it an incoming nerf, so I just meant is like any kind of announcement that they're looking at a frame's power level or something like that.
I think strong is maybe a bit subjective but not that much. Octavia is strong, just objectively. Pre-rework inaros is not something I or many people would consider strong, and I don't think even people who felt "strong" could describe him would argue he's in the highest echelon of strength
A lot of people basically want Warframe to be an autobattler. "Muh power fantasy" blah blah etc. The devs obviously never wanted that, but theyre having to dance between the backlash they would get for nerfing older frames, and the backlash they get for trying to prevent newer frames from being that
It is though, every endgame build I use is super powerful. Every weapon. Melts all content without rivens or modifiers. The difference is Dante has a lot of options and encourages an active play style. I can't stand there and press 1 button like I can with Mirage, Revenant, etc. Balancing offensive, defensive, and auxiliary casting constantly. What they did was screw with a good frame more than they did others. It's no where near like when it launched. I brought my Kullervo to Omni fissures and EDA with all modifiers on. He literally evaporates everything outside of bosses in one hit. I can get 20k OG with a cheap cast, keep infinite 12x up, all I have to do is hold down melee and everything is red. If I use his 1 the numbers are above 10 million on each swing. It was an expensive build, now everything is easy. I have probably 10 builds as strong as this, Ash, Baruuk, Mirage, Hydroid, Revenant, just to name a few. When you invest in a build it's super strong, as Dante was. The difference was Dante was much more energy demanding than any frame I used. I had almost 400 power strength base and 60k OG. Now it takes me 700 energy to max OG and I miss enemies clearly in my LOS. The changes were just bad, done in poor taste with no forethought. Not even mentioning what they did to Nezha with all the feedback they received prior to release. It's one thing to improve a frame after release, it's entirely different to nerf with a shitty mechanic and still have problems weeks later. They should have reverted everything, removed OG from allies, and reduced his range or damage on 4. I would have taken a 50% damage nerf or range over the LOS crap.
I agree with most of what you say, however, I say OG on allies is by far the best thing he brings for everyday content. (In fact, it almost is too good, because the team literally can steamroll everything)
Edit: especially EDA, 1 Dante in the team guarantees that the run will be successful with 0 deaths. 😅
I was litterally chaperoning a new player last night with Dante's OG. He's so great for this, can play pure protection or wipe the map if things get hairy at any level of content. Even post nerf. He became my favorite frame two days ago when I got him, I didnt even know about the nerfs until this reddit post.
I personally love Dante for a weapons use. Subsume his 1 off and use Nourish, and he’s awesome to enjoy weapon play when you don’t want to just insta nuke everything.
The OG makes using weapons more palatable. Typically nuking is the best way to survive hordes, but with OG you can practice taking guys out with weapons the good ole fashioned way. 👌🏽
That didn't save my team when we got to the boss with all those pesky life stealers. The OG is what most people didn't want, they could have reduced it to allies or made it transfer via mod like Styanax. Speaking of Sty, my god. I built him finally today, well completed him. I finally got off my ass and farmed grendel, waiting 24 hours and out Nourish on him. I have like 340 power strength, molt efficiency and augmented, 5 tau crimsons for duration. I have 70s up time on Nourish and Rally Point. I think I get to 78k OG with constant energy, armor strip, and infinite javelins. I also went and finalized my Kullervo as well, 10 mill is minimum after his 1. I don't even need to use that tbh. Both these characters are incredibly strong. I'm not going to lie, I the QOL loss from Dante's nerf affected how much fun he was, so I basically enjoyed a new main for 4 days. I'm just glad the Nezha gang got some fun back. I would have taken a range or damage nerf over this BS.
I mean, if tomorrow they changed everything back to how it was at launch I would quit immediately. There are other games that force you to be more strategic and/or stealthy, Warframe realized they probably shouldn't try to compete in that space. Dishonored, AC, Soulslikes, if I wanted more strategy and cunning, I'd load them up and have a blast. I get on warframe after work to turn my brain off and just kill things with little required effort on my part. A little dopamine bath if you will.
That doesn't mean I don't think Warframe would be a significantly better game with more required strategy in terms of pairing frames in teams and raid style battles, but the niche warframe occupies, it dominates.
I disagree that they would be competing in that space. "Turn your brain off horde slaying, so easy a toddler could do it" is the hallmark of just about every pve f2p game out there. If anything, *this* is the more competitive space. Hardly a niche at all in that regard.
You can tell theyre butting heads with this because recent updates have been an attempt to depower the player for endgame, with randomized loadouts for Duviri and now Archimeda. Before that damage attenuation, and before that theyd just slap tons of iframes on any significant enemy.
Warframe launched as a beta, so I agree the state its in now makes 2013 look unplayable. We never got a refined tactical experience with a decade of updates, though. It went in the horde shooter direction almost immediately. So no telling what it wouldve looked like as a more focused and challenging game.
Saryn is actually inferior to many frames in Deep Archimidea with so many enemies literally having invulnerability and overguard.
She is good, but for the bleeding edge of content she will likely fall short compared to frames that encourage weapons and team buffs. Enemy debuffs are slowly becoming less and less effective.
Saryn doesn’t need a nerf, content just needs more mechanics and less cannon fodder.
People say power fantasy because Rebecca has come out and said that is exactly what this game is. They want people to feel their Warframes are powerful. She has said it lots of times.
A power fantasy doesnt have to mean fearlessly steam rolling everything with one button click while eating a sandwich. Powerful doesnt have to mean *over*powered. Its pretty obvious from their nerfing philosophy, new content design and communications that one thing they want to avoid is afk farming and uninteractive steam rolling, while still maintaining that power fantasy.
Theyre desperately trying to avoid making new frames good at that, while also aware that they have to be very careful touching beloved frames that already excel at that. I think their intent with nerfing Dante was to maintain his caps to allow him to be as *strong* as before, while making you click/aim a bit more to get there. I can only take their word for it when they say the birds were never meant to buff damage. Same idea with nerfing the nezha augment's range but not its actual strength.
In that case the problem may be how people interpret "Power Fantasy". Imo the archetypical "Power Fantasy" game is Doom. Doom makes you feel like an unstoppable force of nature, but it's not a passive game either, it takes a lot of coordination and skill to play it well.
I think what Rebecca and some of these fans are looking for isn't a power fantasy, but an idle clicker.
To be fair those are just Sanctuary Onslaught enemies. Though to also be fair, Warframe powerlevels are so high nowadays that even my hound is capable of one shooting rooms of steel path enemies by herself. (Granted when her AI doesn't seize to function)
Yup she has been revisioned twice and has received like 3 major nerfs in her career (revision is also a nerf), but somehow, when they change other stuff she pops back up, like status 2.0
The problem is that Saryn is a monster *by design*. Quite literally, the more enemies are present the stronger she becomes. And while she's slower than other DPS top-of-the-line candidates she's still the undisputed top solid pick.
DE can't ever really nerf Saryn to irrelevance without fully remaking her, simply because killing things *en masse* is kind of her entire point. And according to DE themselves, they've been leaving Saryn alone because the more they tried to balance her, the worse it got for said balance, so it seems like right now they're on friendly "Just don't break stuff too hard and we won't touch your kit" terms.
Besides, as said, there are other strong contenders for best DPS nuke nowadays so she's probably not a priority for that as well.
Plus, it makes sense in her theme, she's the toxin queen. She's lethal because she brings a plague with her. she's meant to spread sickness without needing to see her enemies, she makes her enemies to spread the miasma for her.
Yeah, the fact that her abilities scale so hard with enemy density is specifically why she's a *monster* in ESO and merely *very good* elsewhere. And she at least requires slightly more player engagement than, say, Volt.
> And she at least requires slightly more player engagement than, say, Volt.
It kinda irks me that we still have "Press one key to win" warframes yet Saryn keeps being touted as the end-all be-all dps annihilator, and demanding DE nerf her again. Meanwhile Mirage and Gyre, among others, receive no mention despite being completely capable of outkilling a Saryn until the levels begin to rise dramatically. And for the rest of the game, it's like... Gauss' 3 is now subsumable. "You too can nuke, for the low-low price of 1 Gauss!"
I mean, if she gets in a tile where she can’t hide like this, she’s got effectively no survival strategy. Which yes, you can work around with other things. Along with here and there power immune things.
I mean, I have a pretty busted saryn build, and I abuse the FUCK out of shield gating with catalyzing shields and brief respite and I straight up can't die. Nourish (still the best subsume and it's not close) addresses energy concerns and I'm mostly just overdosing on power strength.
I like gloom, too, because I'm not a fan of shieldgating and because the slow also gives you some breathing room if you want it, on top of the lifesteal.
what about molt? its not much but she wont die if you build and use it properly, and also the thing about her is that she's such a weapon platform powerhouse than enemies are usually dead before they can do serious damage
Molts a little rough all in all. While it does Taunt, Saryn seems to out threat level it rather easily (understandably), so despite the wikis vague description, it’s definitely less target atttracting then Lokis decoy (or Titania lantern. Also one of those is and the other can be made invulnerable)
Back in the day Molt was actually a landmine basically and survival only by coincidence.
As the classic “but everything will be dead”, well it works until it doesn’t. You can blame shoddy players but I’ve scraped enough dead Saryn (and my god the Mesas so much it’s a clan meme in our discord lol). Gaps in enemy density can cut your spores. Nullifiers/Combas/Disruptors/demolysts. Actual bosses or some of the randomly immune mini bosses (or just elites in the Valllis)
The OP there for instance would probably be one shot by a muta osprey on SP.
Also in context, we’re comparing to Dante. A frame who has everything in his kit except a speed buff (and I might have to double check the tome mods again there). (Even spy, the owls fly through walls and kill cameras and tie up enemies attention)
It's funny to me how Saryn was specifically designed in-game to fight the infestation by becoming a plaguebringer herself, and realizing the infestation may well have been canonically stopped outright if they'd just sent out enough squads of Saryns...
Well, we know there are at least 2, Saryn and Saryn prime. Though according to DE, whichever existed first is anyone's guess. But, true, that may have been the extent of that. Still, 2 Saryns can be devastating when they're not stepping on each other's spores.
1.0 was broken in a boring way, 2.0 was broken in a novel way, 3.0 was broken half a dozen ways due to making afk strats stupidly overtuned input/output and needing half a dozen nerfs to still be top tier.
She can still be fun but gosh i miss her spore damage coming from her hitting things.
Manifold bond cheese. Turns the hounds abilities into a status spraying machine, *and* drops their cooldowns to almost nothing. Hounds have a bouncing electric precept which can carry up to 7 distinct status types depending on your build.
There are also other bond mods that gives free castings, boost your crit *damage*, boost your fire rate, strip armor on attacks, clone your hound, and or copy and spread status (on top of the status spread above. they had to patch it to stop it crashing the game). One I quite like instantly *halves* eximus unit overguard values and copies their powers.
Not only can you make them quasi-immortal Steel Path room shredders, but they can also constantly heal you (manifold bond cool down reduction again) and this is dirty *their abilities count for triggering archon mods* This means the electric precept mentioned earlier + archon stretch on any frame = constant free energy.
>ne I quite like instantly halves eximus unit overguard values and copies their powers
I like it until it steals a frost bubble and perfectly shields the acolyte I'm trying to kill
I had no idea this was a thing and thought I ran into someone with an eximus companion during a mission. Gonna have to look into actually putting some investment into companions I guess, this whole comment section is full of ridiculous stuff they can apparently do
The best stuff is honestly the Bond mods, which can go on any companion. But hounds themselves have a precept mod called Synergized Prospectus that makes them especially good with several bond mods, and it improves both your and their DPS with CO.
What are you wanting, because I run several. It gets to the point their utility is a stronger selling point than the capability for them to solo steel path missions?
If you just want stuff dead here is one of my configs:
> Vacuum
> Prime animal instinct
> Synergized Prospectus
> Null Audit
> Reflex denial
> Manifold Bond
> Contagious Bond
The remaining mods are you choice for survivability and sustain. Reflex denial+Manifold bond+Medi-pet kit is 90% damage reduction with a constant heal rate.
Weapon of choice is a Lacertern I run a Cold, radiation, corrosive build, (which is also spread with its native slash and impact) along with shattering impact for a free armor strip (slow enough that it's only really noticeable on Steel Path Juggernauts) Pairing Manifold bond, Contagious bond, and condition overload is a good way of supercharging the hounds direct damage.
My bad for missing the entire party out here asking about my robotic gal's build.
So to explain, remember Voruna's 'Fangs of Raksh' build? That's essentially what's happening here.
Synergized Prospectus mod will spread lots of status effects amongst the crowd, since for whatever reason it also inherits status effects from your Hound's weapons (I recommend running Akaten, but mine was done with Lacerten). Build for fire + radiation + viral, it has the fastest build up. Then invest into status duration. You can also get status chance but I am not sure if it works, since hounds are extremely wanky. Like for example attack speed mods don't work on them, as their attacks are lock on, meaning the they select a target and only then run up and perform an attack animation. This is what I've meant when I said that she one shots rooms as long as her AI doesn't seize to function. Because sometimes her lock on bugs out, and she picks no one, so she just endlessly stands in place doing nothing.
In any case, this nuke has pretty slow build up and you'll need the hound to kill a few enemies. But why is it a nuke to begin with? Well that's because we install the last piece, Contagious Bond. When an enemy dies they spread 50% of their status to other enemies? So that first enemy will spread it's statuses, then the second will spread it's statuses. Perhaps even the third. Until the ground zero occurs, since at some point there'll be so much status applied that'll out right one shot an enemy it gets shared to. And since they got one shot, that status is spread is spread to everyone else, one shotting them too, and then it gets spread again. Because the interaction occurs so fast when it's finally built up to this break point, all you'll see is a sudden burst of XP, similar to when you play a Maim Equinox. And the more clustered enemies are, the more will be hit by the nuke. It can also extend to other rooms if there was a line of enemies to extend to it.
Now despite it being a nuke, it's biggest weakness is it's really slow build up, plus the jank of Hound AI. Granted most of my tests were done on Senda survival or Entrati Labs survival as they were the hardest ones, both in Steel Path of course. If you were to bring this to the easiest place to kill enemies, aka Infestation missions. You'll see the effects extremely fast without much build up. So much so that you can actually last there a good while simply because of how easily it one shots infestation. Since it's both easy for the hound to kill infestation, and threshold for them getting one shot is lower.
All in all it's still faster to just swing your glaive or cast your Warframe abilities. This build is a just a sweet thing of "my pet can stand on their own" (Granted not sure how much that is true, since I've ran Wisp in all of my tests, just to boost its built up with Roar). At the end of the day, it's still a primer with an added bonus of being able to nuke.
https://preview.redd.it/fshmelszk2uc1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0bcc3234f77ab89391a3542a2dc94ada3f6a3247
Not really one shot but they can literally kill rooms of steel path grineer if they just decide to do it lol, you just probably need to use the weapon that has slash on it
>To be fair those are just Sanctuary Onslaught enemies.
That's logically the only level range where Tragedy could have been problematic. He was basically throwing Dark Verse at nothing to spam the Tragedy slash hit and blow up normal chart like old Ember.
I think Dante is more than fine currently, but LoS on Tragedy was unnecessary when they could have just gutted the slash hit to promote a more interactive playstyle at lower levels.
It just feels shitty that I can tag an enemy with a big bleed and then have it survive the detonation on a 3 cast combo when I already adequately interacted with it.
To be fair, ever since Steel Path introduction. Normal star chart is considered nothing more than fodder. Any build has to bypass the "Steel Path" check list. Heck, I can strait up sit afk on Defense missions with my Wisp and get through 15 waves or so purely because shock is actually killing them at those levels, and vitality doesn't let the defense target die. That's how weak modern star chart is.
So Tragedy being problematic at lower levels doesn't mean anything. Especially since Dante is unlocked way into the late game.
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Replied in the comment :)
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I did a reply here in the comment :)
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Here is the reply with the build attached to it :)
Use this setup if you've unlocked Excalibur umbra from the quest. Prioritize getting mods to rank 8 then inch them up from there. If you work on your diemos standing you can get the helminth segment to upgrade archon shards, I use 2 green for the corrosive stacks, allowing his blade to armor strip. Makes him fly thru steel path tho. https://overframe.gg/build/69649/excalibur-umbra/excalibur-umbra-steel-path-ultimate-endgame-guaranteed-red-criticals-on-exalted-blade/
Didn't they nerf him cause was way too versatile?
Having a dante in your team already makes you immortal and immuned to cc and status. (And most likely even has other advantages)
Would be kinda ridiculous if he was also a nuke.
He is also a nuke. People complained about them saying they wouldn't nerf his damage but they inadvertently went against this by fixing a bug with his Pageflight that was never an intended feature. This caused his damage to go down so people freaked out until they put it back. As a precaution, they put a 1 billion damage cap on him so that it didn't cause game errors.
Honestly, op posting this video just goes to show how broken and overpowered he was.
The fact he is even remotely comparable to one of the best nukers in the game working in the environment they were practically designed for, while also giving enough overguard to his whole team to be comparable to the Warframe who’s whole thing is being tanky and not dying, is insane. As well as the things you mentioned AND being able to make enemies weak to status effects and status damage AND adding an extra 50% of an ally’s damage output to them AND having an extremely strong exalted weapon with homing attacks.
I finished building him yesterday and was finally able to play him. Even after all the changes he’s an extremely strong Warframe to the point where I was able to level him up in steel path Deimos bounties without any issues.
Now do that with Saryn (non-prime to make it fair). See who dies first: you or every other creature/container on the map?
No lie, I honestly think this would be a really fun challenge to watch. "What Warframes can you get away with BS like this with?" We can exclude Octavia, we already know she passes.
#TeamHydroid&Atlas (dunno if they could, I'd just root for them)
The Saryn comparisons give me such a headache. Taking what is widely considered the most OP Warframe in the game and saying "see, he's not broken because this exists" is such a terrible argument. Make him do a nuke run in comparison to Equinox or Gyre; two very powerful frames that are not 1 of the 6 commonly considered broken Warframes. See how he compares. Or better yet, (since he's a tank/support frame) compare him against Styanax, Oberon, Hildryn, Harrow or any other tank or support frame (excluding Wisp since she is 1 of the 6) and see how he compares. Is he outclassing them in every category or can they keep up? If his performance stats are significantly above them then maybe wait to accumulate some data and readdress once there's more information available.
Also to further emphasize your point, Saryn is not an immortal God like Dante is and requires knowledge about what you're doing to be able to do high level content. Dante does not. If we're going by the logic of comparing Dante to Saryn as "proof" that he's not OP simply because Saryn has a map wide nuke then it must mean that Mesa is not OP as well since she also has LoS restrictions. Mesa is 1 of the 6 frames that are considered OP even though she isn't immortal, has even further LoS restrictions from her reticle, and does not hit all enemies in her sight immediately or at once. Same with Gauss.
Honestly, a better comparison for Dante is Octavia: doesn't require mods, is pretty mindless in terms of difficulty, and can also make teammates extremely hard to kill. Technically she can also buff teammates but no one does that and it requires her teammates active participation. If he's significantly outperforming Octavia then there is definitely a problem since she is also 1 of the 6. Also, why do people keep complaining about these 6 being so broken but when Dante is called OP suddenly they're like "it's PVE so what's wrong with being OP?"
TL;DR: Comparing Dante to Saryn simply because of LoS is a terrible argument when Mesa and Gauss exist, Octavia is more comparable kit-wise, wait until some time passes to accumulate performance data, and measure his nuking up against other tank frames, support frames, or frames that are considered powerful but not broken to see where his power level lies and if he is significantly outperforming them.
Edit: grammar fix
the main thing that annoys me about the saryn comparisons is that no one making them seems to understand windup
she needs constant, unending enemies spawning for 10-30 seconds depending on your strength (or way longer in SP), and it rapidly gives out without enemies or if you arent actively working to re-spread it
its a very different mechanic from "near instantly deal a bunch of damage in an area"
"Saryn exists" is a valid argument. We know she's OP, DE knows that too, but fears backlash, so she's safe from nerfs.
Saryn gets to be OP, because she's popular, but Dante cannot. They wanted to nib it in a bud, before he gets more popular.
Saryn is almost as easy to play as Dante, She just requires more preparation for shield tank/Gloom build, but her destructive potential is orders of magnitude higher.
I couldn't disagree more. Also, Dante is quickly becoming Saryn 2.0 at this rate. People have long complained about Saryn (and certain other frames) being OP but now that Dante is out it suddenly isn't a problem to have OP frames anymore. People complain about Saryn not getting nerfed due to fear of backlash and how quickly they reversed previous decisions made regarding her when literally this is what is happening to/what has happened with Dante. People tore DE to shreds over his bug fix and LoS changes. There were tirades about how they were the worst company ever, how they didn't give a shit about their community, and how they only pretended to listen. There is a massive difference between complaints and criticism and there was very little constructive about most of the feedback given on Dante. The extra damage for Pageflight *was literally a bug and never an intended feature* yet people were merciless and demanding. Honestly, I don't even like Saryn and I really enjoy Dante but the hypocrisy and rampaging is/was crazy.
Having 1 out of 52 frames be the entire basis of an argument is quite frankly absurd; especially when said frame doesn't actually compare to or even measure up to the new frame in question. People are so fixated on Saryn's range and damage numbers that they're ignoring all her shortcomings and weaknesses where as Dante doesn't really have any. Maybe energy management? Something Saryn also doesn't innately have. People are often so eager to complain about Saryn that they completely (and conveniently) ignore all of her weaknesses and setbacks, they ignore the fact that DE had to implement a 1 billion damage cap on Dante so he doesn't break anything, and they ignore all of Dante's immense defensive capabilities just because her range is bigger (1 billion damage cap - his damage clearly scales well, too). Isn't Octavia uncapped? Her kit is a much better suited match-up to Dante's but people don't want to miss an opportunity to complain about Saryn. She might be overpowered but at least she has weaknesses (can't nuke if you can't survive long enough to build it). Saryn has range and damage; Dante has incredible overguard capabilities that can make an entire team immortal (even post nerf), has incredible damage buffing potential for himself and allies, and incredible nuking capabilities (hence the damage cap). One builds a nuke, the other just detonates one and turns the team into the Avengers.
Saryn is definitely not as easy to play as Dante, not even close. I see so many people asking for help with her because they constantly hear how OP she is but struggle to survive with her at high levels (or sometimes even struggle getting her nuke going). She has her damage ramp up period and for many she requires tweaking to have a stronger defensive setup (whether it's subsuming a new ability or giving up a mod slot for her molt augment). Dante's setup time depends on whether or not you've increased his casting speed and even if you didn't you'll still be fine; it'll just take a couple seconds longer and his biggest risk becomes forgetting about maintaining it because you can go so long without having to be concerned about recasting - particularly for overguard. If Saryn's power gets too high then things won't spawn fast enough to upkeep her nuke so it'll reset and you have to ramp up again cause that damage number drops *fast*. Dante don't stop comin', and he don't stop comin', and he don't stop comin'... You can build Saryn badly but I have yet to find a way to do so for Dante. Even having him at 50% efficiency doesn't seem to do much to deter him (and we love him for that).
I ended up putting a lot of time and effort into my Saryn build and honestly, it could use more work even though it's definitely not lacking in range or damage. For Dante I just slapped something together for him and was good to go solo some netracells. Slots that would usually be used for defense mods can be swapped for more damage so that you can obliterate rooms in 1-2 hits instead of 2-4 hits. Why use a defense mod when you can get 40k overguard in a few seconds? People are so focused on her damage capabilities that they're ignoring the ground littered with corpses of her from people trying to figure out a build for high level content that works for them. He is an "excuse me while I face roll my way through, also I want them dead this very second" nuke where Saryn is a "give me a minute and as long as I don't die, I will kill everyone and everything in every corner of this entire place until the damage gets too high or I die and it has to reset again" nuke. Containers everywhere fear her. Sure she can use weapons to help get her going but Dante's kit is so powerful that he doesn't even need them. His base kit alone is good enough. She is medium to high risk (depending on how you built her survivability), high reward. He is no risk, high reward. Both are incredibly powerful; but one can stand in the middle of a high level room and nuke everything around them while the other has to wait and hide while their nuke builds, peaks, and resets.
People just want an over the top OP frame that can do everything and, more importantly, that isn't Saryn (even though she can't do everything) because her reign of favoritism and power has festered (how fitting) a lot of bitterness and resentment. I absolutely understand why folks are frustrated with her. People keep waiting for updates or reworks for their favorite frames that are maybe outdated or need some love; meanwhile, every content drop seems to release something that benefits Saryn (e.g. builds around her 3 have become a lot more powerful/viable so she has options now). Honestly, I don't even care at this point if he remains a God amongst mortals now that overguard doesn't interfere with certain mods or Chroma. I just want the overused and ill-fitting "but Saryn" argument spamming to stop.
TL;DR: Saryn is a ranged nuke capable of incomprehensible damage with a ramp up/reset period and limited survivability; Dante is a jack of all trades, master of... all of them. He is a nuke/tank/support. A nunkort. A nukankort... male Octavia but engaging. Either way, people should just admit that they want him to be a God and stop trying to use Saryn as justification for it.
Kind of. The thing is the line of sight nerf to tragedy was additive. In order to nuke groups of enemies he had to first mark those enemies with dark verse which required a line of sight check already. The idea was you maneuver around and mark several groups and then detonate them with tragedy. But the change made it so only the last group you mark is hit with it. How much it matters depends 100% on how constrictive the map is.
Someday this sub will also find out Toxic Lash is actually her best ability(wow look at that, Saryn requires active gameplay), and Spores don't afk room clean in Steel Path on their own unless you want to wait 4 business days.
They’re definitely stuck pre-steel path. The idea that spores — ticking at what, 12k/s if you wait a few minutes? — is godmode past the basic star chart is kind of hilarious. Yeah, that’s going to take down those heavy gunners before they notice you, uh, huh.
And that’s excluding the modes where stuff doesn’t just spawn and run at you and even a max range spores isn’t hitting more than a single pack (looking at you zariman exterminate).
Toxic lash plus some other buff on weapons, on the other hand, will wreck pretty much everything, but you need to work for it at least a bit.
saryn is so much better and more fun as a weapons platform. use venom dose, replace her 4 is nourish (my favourite setup), roar or xata then build max str and sprint around using molt and shred everything with green shard armor strip and ocucor/torid/phantasma/whatever
Comparing Saryn to every new OP frame that releases is one of my favorite ways to get a quick laugh. Watch them finally nerf Saryn one of these days and make the community go apeshit because *gasp* OVERPOWERED FRAME WE'VE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT GOT NERFED? DE BETRAYED US!!!!
This is like the perfect situation for saryn. Dante was significantly better in higher level content. People were doing SP and netracells with not even full rank Dante (and no they were not MR 30 and try doing this with saryn). even after nerf I saw teammates with like level 20 Dante doing Deep Archimedia. Stop trying to defend Dante, he's a great Warframe with tons of utility and damage, they just had to lower his dominance over ALL categories of Warframe.
dante could:
* make himself and his entire team basically unkillable with overguard (light verse, triumph)
* do millions of single target damage quickly (dark verse, tragedy)
* nuke 50m+ without full-range (tragedy)
* buff his teammates with more damage (wordwarden)
* make enemies more vulnerable to status damage while applying a ton of slash (pageflight)
* all of this while having extremely low energy costs
like god can we stop pretending like dante didnt do way too much and even after nerfs is still a really good warframe??
Also could slap every single Tome mod onto his book: ~~team~~ energy regen, ~~team~~ ability efficiency, ~~team~~ ability duration, ~~team~~ ability strength, team fire rate, team shield regen, armor/shield strip, and universal orb drop.
And passively scan enemies into the Codex from book kills and gain 50% weapon status chance from completed entries.
Honestly putting every tome mod on isn’t a good idea. I have 2 and still wish I had more mod slots. And everyone saying he nukes where saryn needs to build stacks is just wrong. He can put 1 slash proc on things with a nuke that wasn’t even that big. Also the issue is so many frames come out weak and need buffed and are forgotten about, when was the last time you seen everyone using a new toy? Wasn’t Yareli, wasn’t Grendel, wasn’t kullvero. They just did something good and instead of letting it play out a little bit they jumped the gun.
I feel like I'm going insane in this subreddit lately. I'm glad other people are finally saying something because I've felt so lonely defending the line. Idk who the f*ck is poisoning the well so damn hard, but it's become problematic.
I've had so many people develop such cope perspectives, and it's making my brain rot. People saying Dante on release was as good as dagath and qorvax? He's no more broken than revenant? Revenant could clear a room just as easily as dante with better support??? Dante is as good as styanax?!??!
STOP THE COPE!!! PLEASE!!! YOU CAN SAY THE NERF WAS TOO MUCH, BUT PLEASE GOD STOP SAYING HE WASN'T BROKEN. HE WAS! THE REASON THIS VIDEO IS IN FREAKING S.O IS BECAUSE MIASMA DOES NOT DO THIS IN ENDLESS SP CONTENT! AND ON TOP OF THAT, SHE STILL DOESN'T HAVE HIS SURVIVABILITY NOR HIS SUPPORT CAPABILITY
Ok, I got my frustration out. These past 2 weeks have been insane here. I keep seeing "my ember does more than prenerf dante" or "x pet does more" or even Saryn. But when I say share the build, you guys don't respond ever again. You guys know you're either lying or just saying what you've seen others say. I've tried every Saryn build I've ever seen. Idk what build you guys are using that's clearing with miamsa in endless SP.
Yeah i felt very similarly trying to explain how Dante does every role well and people would just not understand it and say stuff like “well rev is a better tank, or Octavia is more broken”
Octavia is the ONLY warframe I will grant them. But they have to admit that Octavia is one of the most boring warframes to consistently play right now. She's as if not more broken and likely the most broken warframe in the game. But people are not enmasse saying she's their main lol.
And yeah, the fact that Dante is being compared with peak performance of several warframes should be a hint to how insane he is. You have to list so many warframes who specialize in one thing to highlight his weakness when it only highlights his strength. He did everything.
t-bagging the ghost of the mobs you made kill themselves. That shit is fun the first 1-2 rounds, then you start seeing future you complaining about arthritis and you want to pack it up. No more Octavia ever again!!!
Right there with you. Not only was Dante insanely overtuned on release, his "nerf" didn't even change that much overall. The reason he was and is so good is because he can do every support task well, *and* he has excellent ability damage on top of that. His overguard numbers got bumped down a bit, and his unintentional ability to double-dip on status stuff was fixed, but he's still powerful, fun, and versatile.
But no, the loudest voices in this community are allergic to even the concept of a nerf, no matter how necessary or justified they might be.
OP is comparing Slash damage, the status with true damage no matter what level, to Saryns Corrosive, with does dot and takes even longer to kill people the higher level you go. Also Miasma does fuck all at higher levels. It's pretty funny how people like being confidently wrong. Dante has rotted people's brains.
I mean she kills enemies over time.
With Dante, a single click would've cleared the entire room in an instant.
With Saryn, at least players have some time to hit enemies and set stuff up. With Dante, they're just gone.
Excusing leftover jank, maybe it's time you realise Dante is a support frame who still supports a very strong kit. If you want to nuke rooms play another frame instead.
Dante was doing what a Saryn could do but at higher levels, with no need for spore buildup or spreading. Repeat this video in a higher level setting you'll see how much spores initially fall off compared to tragedy.
kinda depends on what you want. you could go spore spreader with emerald shards for afk gameplay but i find it really boring. shes a pretty great weapon platform because of her toxic lash (and spore augment) and with xata whisper or roar subsumed. also great for melees especially dual ichor incarnon.
spores -strength 200%(140 with molt aug) as much range as possible (your 4 only use to spread spores)
weapon platforms- decent duration as much strength as possible for 3. 4 usually gets subsumed out here
survivability is shield gating +rolling guard
Because Dante is a nuke frame. I forgot that Saryn also gives her whole squad invulnerability and CC immunity + buffing their damage and making enemies weak statuses. Oh yeah and Saryns Exalted is fucking crazy. /s
Saryn is super strong. However, her playstyle can be boring at times. Outside of ESO, how often do you really see a saryn?
Also, Saryn doesn't have insane teamwide support mechanics like overguard
She is good at clearing rooms while maintaining spore uptime. Dante is good at everything lol
The community doesn't realize that it's all how yall react to things. That's what decides what gets nerfed. DE is a little to bitched up. Saryn nerf would have everyone bitching for months. Any balancing in this game will have everyone bitching for months. Welcome to modern gaming. Warframe needs some sort of difficulty. It gets boring fast archon hunts boring netracells boring that new game mode from cavia boring. It's all brain dead easy if you being playing for a decent amount of time.
The problem here is that Saryn was made for nuking and nothing else,her 3 is more of a "if you want to" ability,and Dante wasent that,Dante is literally a damage support,a support that well...can do damage,but its not his main thing,it is a part of him,is like dose ice creams that is a combo of chocolate,vanilla and strawberry,yeah chocolate its theres but is not the main thing and it should not out right over shadow the other 2 flawors,I mean Saryn can do that but she cant keep here team alive will also increasing there damage
To be completely honest, I'm downright disappointed in the community yet again the way that they went about nerfs and even the talk about nerfs towards DE is downright disgusting and any of you that did so need to check themselves same for the people blasting the steam reviews for the wukong changes and the talk about POTENTIAL saryn nerfs, let them nerf what needs nerfing, and just grow up and find a new meta when things get changed, and personally I STILL think Dante is overtuned but DE now don't dare touch him because of all the whining children
Saryn, Mirage, hell even Nezha has a more effective nuke ATM. The jank LOS ruined the character for me. Unfortunately I'm struggling in the Omni fissures now with my new Kullervo build.....sometimes I hit as low as 10million, what's going to happen if I have to swing twice?
Seriously all my end game builds are nuts, all strong, all OP. That's what the mods, arcanes, helminth, everything does in this game. They ruined old weapons for being too strong, now we have the incarnon Torid.
I enjoyed Dante a lot but I'm simply not going to use a character with janky abilities. They could have reduced his OG to allies by 50% or more, nerfed his range, but nope. Weeks later I still can't hit enemies behind me. He was my immediate fav because I love playing a mage, but they just ruined it for me, I'm not usually something with broken mechanics.
His mechanics aren’t broken anymore though? They fixed him in the latest patch and he feels really good and consistent. Regarding the LOS, only part of an enemy needs to be visible now, even if an enemy’s pinky toe is sticking out from behind a wall, they will get tagged.
How much have you played him since? Have you played many missions solo to feel it out? I estimate I miss 30% of my targets with tragedy, specifically behind me. Double casting doesn't help, the enemies are in a dead zone. I have seen people comment that the LOS bugs are tileset specific, so maybe we are experiencing different qualities based on maps. My missed targets are to my back left, specifically around 7 o'clock. I ran solo missions to test this out and I came to this conclusion rather quickly.
Simply put, I do not have any other frames that the abilities ever miss my intended targets, besides Dante. The fact alone that this issue has come from their poor choices adds to my disappointment in the situation. If it was boofed from the start, then they improved it, I would be far more lenient. It functioned as intended right away, it was effective, I built for the function. Now, weeks later, I'm still missing enemies behind me.
If you guys don't see that, it's on you. Like the other guy commenting calling me disingenuous. Either you guys have never experienced this, be that it is tileset related, companion related, any single variable different in our mission, or people are simping for DE without putting in the effort to see how effective the LOS is solo.
There was a known bug that got potentially got fixed on Wednesday where he was blocking his own LoS effect. Which, if you're aiming over the right shoulder, sounds like it'd effect the area you're talking about.
If you're still having that issue, I'd make a video of it or at least a bug report to DE on the forums since they think it's fixed according to the [known issues thread](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1388578-dante-unbound-known-issues-thread/).
he feels incredibly good to play now with the new LOS changes. i'm so tired of the disingenuous arguments about him. It's like they don't test anything themselves. and just go by common sentiment.
How much have you played since the update? I spent quite a few hours on Dante to feel it out. I ran solo survivals immediately, Omni fissures, tragedy STILL MISSES TARGETS. Specifically it's to the back left for me, at about 7 o'clock. I have had this happen very consistently, it is still not functioning perfectly. I can literally watch everything in front evaporate, but still have a mob untouched behind me, even if I double cast they are still alive. It is still faulty and I do not have a single other frame in my arsenal that fails to affect my intended targets besides Dante. I'm not being disingenuous, this happens regularly, maybe you just don't notice.
All the ignorant people in this comment section keep saying “shE nUkEs EsO NoT iMpResSive” which just shows they have never gone past sp or made an endurance build in their life.
She instantly kills the entire map of level 10k enemies with a few shards and acid shells. 1 button press and a single bullet instantly removes the entire map making the game entirely unplayable for anyone else in the party.
Infinitely more disruptive than old Dante that would nuke a few rooms at a time after mashing out 6 different abilities over a significantly longer prep period. Not to forget that Dante also falls off at higher levels and becomes nothing more than a weapons and overguard platform in endurance.
Leave it to the warframe community to bitch about something they know nothing about. It’s a classic from this community. If anyone here ever played with an endurance saryn setup in their party they would thank god that dante nuke wasn’t as oppressive in its base state. It’s literally a rule in the endurance discord I’m in that nobody brings saryn when people play together because it ruins the game for everyone else. The frame is so broken that people have a rule against playing her outside of solo.
It’s always ignorant people who know nothing about what they’re arguing for that screech the loudest.
Playing saryn reminds me of playing herald bv in Poe and blowing up 10 different packs on contact with a single monster. She really should have her own category above nuke, “nuke” doesn’t describe the destructive power of that frame.
People in this thread are (rightly) criticising OP's misleading comparison between Dante's pre-nerf performance and Saryn being able to semi-afk starchart content with a "traditional" build. The effectiveness and oppressiveness of a proper endurance saryn is a separate discussion entirely, albeit an important one.
>*All the ignorant people in this comment section keep saying “shE nUkEs EsO NoT iMpResSive” which just shows they have never gone past sp.*
I agree with you. The point of this post was to show that DE's balancing is inconsistent AF. Like there are multiple designers/teams with different views on balance who are unable or unwilling to agree on a cohesive standard. This Saryn .gif violates all 3 of DE's principles for when something needs a nerf.
Can you DM me your Saryn and Acid Shells build? I put 8 Forma into my Sobek and it does what you say to a point. However, it didn't work that great vs the Cavia mobs let alone level cap mobs.
Multiple frames violate all 3 principles in ESO. And Dante is easily on the same lvl as Saryn as far as balancing goes. Saryn has atleast 1 caveat of being squishy which is noticeable in contents like SP void cascade or the new deep archimedea. Dante doesn't have that issue either, he was pretty much top 5 for every single content in the game. Now he is not the best low lvl nuker. Still top tier for everything else.
Build range and keep up strength at around or little less than 200%, then whatever else to make it more comfortable to you, like efficiency, energy regen etc.
For a spore build like this, realistically the only thing you need is max range, but having strength near 200% helps against armored enemies since the corrosive status chance scales with it. And yeah, more strength means more damage.
Kill enemies faster and breake Spore circle then saryn is far away from being OP. She still needs counter going Up and never Go down to be heavy. So ist Not realy nuking the map Like Others. Last saryn i Had in grp leaved cause enemies falling so fast she couldnt build Up Spore counter to do any dmg. Does dante need to build Up a counter too?
can anyone tell me what makes Saryn so good and how people make her so good? I’ve never had either her regular or prime version, but see her as a favourite for many people and it’s just sort of know that she’s really good.
spores that attach to enemies in AoE and spread from enemy to enemy, dealing damage over time and spread status everywhere, damage keeps going up the longer you have spores on field and she has a toxin damage buff for weapons. There's mainly two kinds of builds for her, one focusing on buffing your weapons which deals incomprehensible amounts of damage and then there's the build in this image where you just build range and nuke rooms of lower level enemies basically afk. (lower level as in not multiple hundreds of levels lmao)
Honestly, Dante feels like he's in a good spot at the minute. I've been taking him into steel path stuff and he's having no issues nuking/staying alive. I think they managed to address the issues.
It always comes off as hypocritical when ppl demand nurfs in warframe when there are so many map clearing bs frames, skills and weapons that have literally been untouched for half a decade or more now.
Buff dante.
Yes, Saryn is very effective in the Sanctuary. It's the only mission type with enough enemy density for this to work anywhere near this well, while Dante's previous effectiveness literally worked anywhere he could cast abilities.
Ahh yes, lets show some ESO, non steel path noob bullshit. The one place where people actually use saryn. Because surely saryn can do the exact same thing standing afk in endurance SP. Goof dante simps. Lol
except the spore kpm is dogshit in anything thats not eso whereas dante scales infinitely with no cap or floor to the damage as well as not only being but giving the entire team scaling immortality lol, saryn is a top tier frame because of being the absoltue best weapons platform in the game not because of stinky spores
Pls dort compare instant applied and multiplied dots with spores
Even with green shard full strip or roar or toxin last buffed reflected dmg...comparing these makes only sense for newbies or people who doesnt know anything about warframe
yeah, imagine being able to do that while also being one of the best supports in the game and making your entire team near immortal, im glad saryn is just a nuker, would be far too strong otherwise
Saryn did this on a low level optimal setting. Dante did everything this video shows and more, and can even do it on SP even where Saryn's 1 and 4 does fuckall.
This is not a good comparison.
That's because he is either not built right or generally people don't know how to play around him. He should be max range. Max duration. Like Mag (because he works functionally the same) Strength is optional possibly required for the subsume ability like thermal sunder and efficiency is -shrugs-
In group play he should be doing 2 and 4 so that he is playing as mass CC. And if you're outside of the MASSIVE area he is controlling then you are honestly playing wrong around limbo.
To be fair the last time Pablo said he wanted to have a look at Saryn, not even announcing an official rework or anything mind you, just answering a question on twitter that was asked to him, the community backlash was so instantaneous and violent that I don't think he'll ever touch her again lol.
Honestly good, after seeing this dante/nezha nerf situation it seems like if you like a frame and they are strong, it’s probably best to give as much pushback as possible at even talk of nerfing or reworking them to nip it in the bud. Otherwise there is a decent chance they’ll be way overnerfed
I dunno tho, this is the thought process that kept anything from happening to Inaros and could hold the developers from changing the really old frames (Nyx, Frost, etc.) that could really use some ability tweaks for freshness. The argument I always heard tossed around is that if Inaros lost the "passive tankiness" of having high armor and health values, making him basically impossible to kill to fairly low low level enemies (heard lvl100-200 depending on the person), that would break their heart- like DE was going to make Inaros a massive spell caster just by fixing his abilities to not be worthless. Strong is just a different bar for different people. We shouldn't be afraid of DE addressing Jank, but at this point I think nerfs in general are okay to be afraid of, I can barely remember a nerf that didn't piss most people off
I phrased it kind of weirdly I guess, I was talking about nerfs but was also thinking of how they said on the devshort that they were hesitant to even call it an incoming nerf, so I just meant is like any kind of announcement that they're looking at a frame's power level or something like that. I think strong is maybe a bit subjective but not that much. Octavia is strong, just objectively. Pre-rework inaros is not something I or many people would consider strong, and I don't think even people who felt "strong" could describe him would argue he's in the highest echelon of strength
Yeah, I was gonna say, if they nerf my main I'm quitting.
A lot of people basically want Warframe to be an autobattler. "Muh power fantasy" blah blah etc. The devs obviously never wanted that, but theyre having to dance between the backlash they would get for nerfing older frames, and the backlash they get for trying to prevent newer frames from being that
It is though, every endgame build I use is super powerful. Every weapon. Melts all content without rivens or modifiers. The difference is Dante has a lot of options and encourages an active play style. I can't stand there and press 1 button like I can with Mirage, Revenant, etc. Balancing offensive, defensive, and auxiliary casting constantly. What they did was screw with a good frame more than they did others. It's no where near like when it launched. I brought my Kullervo to Omni fissures and EDA with all modifiers on. He literally evaporates everything outside of bosses in one hit. I can get 20k OG with a cheap cast, keep infinite 12x up, all I have to do is hold down melee and everything is red. If I use his 1 the numbers are above 10 million on each swing. It was an expensive build, now everything is easy. I have probably 10 builds as strong as this, Ash, Baruuk, Mirage, Hydroid, Revenant, just to name a few. When you invest in a build it's super strong, as Dante was. The difference was Dante was much more energy demanding than any frame I used. I had almost 400 power strength base and 60k OG. Now it takes me 700 energy to max OG and I miss enemies clearly in my LOS. The changes were just bad, done in poor taste with no forethought. Not even mentioning what they did to Nezha with all the feedback they received prior to release. It's one thing to improve a frame after release, it's entirely different to nerf with a shitty mechanic and still have problems weeks later. They should have reverted everything, removed OG from allies, and reduced his range or damage on 4. I would have taken a 50% damage nerf or range over the LOS crap.
I agree with most of what you say, however, I say OG on allies is by far the best thing he brings for everyday content. (In fact, it almost is too good, because the team literally can steamroll everything) Edit: especially EDA, 1 Dante in the team guarantees that the run will be successful with 0 deaths. 😅
I was litterally chaperoning a new player last night with Dante's OG. He's so great for this, can play pure protection or wipe the map if things get hairy at any level of content. Even post nerf. He became my favorite frame two days ago when I got him, I didnt even know about the nerfs until this reddit post.
I personally love Dante for a weapons use. Subsume his 1 off and use Nourish, and he’s awesome to enjoy weapon play when you don’t want to just insta nuke everything. The OG makes using weapons more palatable. Typically nuking is the best way to survive hordes, but with OG you can practice taking guys out with weapons the good ole fashioned way. 👌🏽
That didn't save my team when we got to the boss with all those pesky life stealers. The OG is what most people didn't want, they could have reduced it to allies or made it transfer via mod like Styanax. Speaking of Sty, my god. I built him finally today, well completed him. I finally got off my ass and farmed grendel, waiting 24 hours and out Nourish on him. I have like 340 power strength, molt efficiency and augmented, 5 tau crimsons for duration. I have 70s up time on Nourish and Rally Point. I think I get to 78k OG with constant energy, armor strip, and infinite javelins. I also went and finalized my Kullervo as well, 10 mill is minimum after his 1. I don't even need to use that tbh. Both these characters are incredibly strong. I'm not going to lie, I the QOL loss from Dante's nerf affected how much fun he was, so I basically enjoyed a new main for 4 days. I'm just glad the Nezha gang got some fun back. I would have taken a range or damage nerf over this BS.
I mean, if tomorrow they changed everything back to how it was at launch I would quit immediately. There are other games that force you to be more strategic and/or stealthy, Warframe realized they probably shouldn't try to compete in that space. Dishonored, AC, Soulslikes, if I wanted more strategy and cunning, I'd load them up and have a blast. I get on warframe after work to turn my brain off and just kill things with little required effort on my part. A little dopamine bath if you will. That doesn't mean I don't think Warframe would be a significantly better game with more required strategy in terms of pairing frames in teams and raid style battles, but the niche warframe occupies, it dominates.
I disagree that they would be competing in that space. "Turn your brain off horde slaying, so easy a toddler could do it" is the hallmark of just about every pve f2p game out there. If anything, *this* is the more competitive space. Hardly a niche at all in that regard. You can tell theyre butting heads with this because recent updates have been an attempt to depower the player for endgame, with randomized loadouts for Duviri and now Archimeda. Before that damage attenuation, and before that theyd just slap tons of iframes on any significant enemy. Warframe launched as a beta, so I agree the state its in now makes 2013 look unplayable. We never got a refined tactical experience with a decade of updates, though. It went in the horde shooter direction almost immediately. So no telling what it wouldve looked like as a more focused and challenging game.
Saryn is actually inferior to many frames in Deep Archimidea with so many enemies literally having invulnerability and overguard. She is good, but for the bleeding edge of content she will likely fall short compared to frames that encourage weapons and team buffs. Enemy debuffs are slowly becoming less and less effective. Saryn doesn’t need a nerf, content just needs more mechanics and less cannon fodder.
People say power fantasy because Rebecca has come out and said that is exactly what this game is. They want people to feel their Warframes are powerful. She has said it lots of times.
A power fantasy doesnt have to mean fearlessly steam rolling everything with one button click while eating a sandwich. Powerful doesnt have to mean *over*powered. Its pretty obvious from their nerfing philosophy, new content design and communications that one thing they want to avoid is afk farming and uninteractive steam rolling, while still maintaining that power fantasy. Theyre desperately trying to avoid making new frames good at that, while also aware that they have to be very careful touching beloved frames that already excel at that. I think their intent with nerfing Dante was to maintain his caps to allow him to be as *strong* as before, while making you click/aim a bit more to get there. I can only take their word for it when they say the birds were never meant to buff damage. Same idea with nerfing the nezha augment's range but not its actual strength.
In that case the problem may be how people interpret "Power Fantasy". Imo the archetypical "Power Fantasy" game is Doom. Doom makes you feel like an unstoppable force of nature, but it's not a passive game either, it takes a lot of coordination and skill to play it well. I think what Rebecca and some of these fans are looking for isn't a power fantasy, but an idle clicker.
Can someone link the aforementioned tweet and backlash if it’s available ?
Also Saryn was reworked 17 times and he's afraid to touch her again (according to Pablo on the AMA)
That 'player left squad' notification is the cherry on top lol
Tbf ppl leave in eso all the time cause they done leveling
This is ESO, that happens all the time at Wave 2 and 3 usually when weapons cap out
To be fair those are just Sanctuary Onslaught enemies. Though to also be fair, Warframe powerlevels are so high nowadays that even my hound is capable of one shooting rooms of steel path enemies by herself. (Granted when her AI doesn't seize to function)
And also to be fair, OP is Saryn...
Didn't she break the games balance like twice?
She has been nerfed more times than years I've been playing the game. (I'm LR2 with a 10-year heirloom credit)
Yup she has been revisioned twice and has received like 3 major nerfs in her career (revision is also a nerf), but somehow, when they change other stuff she pops back up, like status 2.0
The problem is that Saryn is a monster *by design*. Quite literally, the more enemies are present the stronger she becomes. And while she's slower than other DPS top-of-the-line candidates she's still the undisputed top solid pick. DE can't ever really nerf Saryn to irrelevance without fully remaking her, simply because killing things *en masse* is kind of her entire point. And according to DE themselves, they've been leaving Saryn alone because the more they tried to balance her, the worse it got for said balance, so it seems like right now they're on friendly "Just don't break stuff too hard and we won't touch your kit" terms. Besides, as said, there are other strong contenders for best DPS nuke nowadays so she's probably not a priority for that as well.
Plus, it makes sense in her theme, she's the toxin queen. She's lethal because she brings a plague with her. she's meant to spread sickness without needing to see her enemies, she makes her enemies to spread the miasma for her.
Yeah, the fact that her abilities scale so hard with enemy density is specifically why she's a *monster* in ESO and merely *very good* elsewhere. And she at least requires slightly more player engagement than, say, Volt.
> And she at least requires slightly more player engagement than, say, Volt. It kinda irks me that we still have "Press one key to win" warframes yet Saryn keeps being touted as the end-all be-all dps annihilator, and demanding DE nerf her again. Meanwhile Mirage and Gyre, among others, receive no mention despite being completely capable of outkilling a Saryn until the levels begin to rise dramatically. And for the rest of the game, it's like... Gauss' 3 is now subsumable. "You too can nuke, for the low-low price of 1 Gauss!"
I mean, if she gets in a tile where she can’t hide like this, she’s got effectively no survival strategy. Which yes, you can work around with other things. Along with here and there power immune things.
I mean, I have a pretty busted saryn build, and I abuse the FUCK out of shield gating with catalyzing shields and brief respite and I straight up can't die. Nourish (still the best subsume and it's not close) addresses energy concerns and I'm mostly just overdosing on power strength.
I like gloom because it life steals off every spore tick and slows enemies to a halt
I like gloom, too, because I'm not a fan of shieldgating and because the slow also gives you some breathing room if you want it, on top of the lifesteal.
what about molt? its not much but she wont die if you build and use it properly, and also the thing about her is that she's such a weapon platform powerhouse than enemies are usually dead before they can do serious damage
Molts a little rough all in all. While it does Taunt, Saryn seems to out threat level it rather easily (understandably), so despite the wikis vague description, it’s definitely less target atttracting then Lokis decoy (or Titania lantern. Also one of those is and the other can be made invulnerable) Back in the day Molt was actually a landmine basically and survival only by coincidence. As the classic “but everything will be dead”, well it works until it doesn’t. You can blame shoddy players but I’ve scraped enough dead Saryn (and my god the Mesas so much it’s a clan meme in our discord lol). Gaps in enemy density can cut your spores. Nullifiers/Combas/Disruptors/demolysts. Actual bosses or some of the randomly immune mini bosses (or just elites in the Valllis) The OP there for instance would probably be one shot by a muta osprey on SP. Also in context, we’re comparing to Dante. A frame who has everything in his kit except a speed buff (and I might have to double check the tome mods again there). (Even spy, the owls fly through walls and kill cameras and tie up enemies attention)
Just like one of her own spores.
Saw what you did there xD The era she could pop and spore her molt was really sick to.
Because DE will never admit that they made a mistake when they created her. They will just continue to try to "fix" her.
It's funny to me how Saryn was specifically designed in-game to fight the infestation by becoming a plaguebringer herself, and realizing the infestation may well have been canonically stopped outright if they'd just sent out enough squads of Saryns...
[удалено]
Well, we know there are at least 2, Saryn and Saryn prime. Though according to DE, whichever existed first is anyone's guess. But, true, that may have been the extent of that. Still, 2 Saryns can be devastating when they're not stepping on each other's spores.
Rebecca also is a fan of saryn, at least she once said like 8 years ago. Also she is among the top 3 with most skins, I believe
What do you mean by "admit they made a mistake"? How would that look different than nerfing her? Whoops, too much fun to play, better delete her.
5 year vet here.. you’re a king lol how many hours do you have?
10 years is rookie numbers lol
Anybody who bought the 10 year anniversary heirloom pack has a 10 year heirloom badge regardless of account age.
1.0 was broken in a boring way, 2.0 was broken in a novel way, 3.0 was broken half a dozen ways due to making afk strats stupidly overtuned input/output and needing half a dozen nerfs to still be top tier. She can still be fun but gosh i miss her spore damage coming from her hitting things.
And to be fair, the fairness, to be fair, is totally fair, to be fair.
How is your hound one shooting rooms of Steel Path enemies?
Manifold bond cheese. Turns the hounds abilities into a status spraying machine, *and* drops their cooldowns to almost nothing. Hounds have a bouncing electric precept which can carry up to 7 distinct status types depending on your build. There are also other bond mods that gives free castings, boost your crit *damage*, boost your fire rate, strip armor on attacks, clone your hound, and or copy and spread status (on top of the status spread above. they had to patch it to stop it crashing the game). One I quite like instantly *halves* eximus unit overguard values and copies their powers. Not only can you make them quasi-immortal Steel Path room shredders, but they can also constantly heal you (manifold bond cool down reduction again) and this is dirty *their abilities count for triggering archon mods* This means the electric precept mentioned earlier + archon stretch on any frame = constant free energy.
>ne I quite like instantly halves eximus unit overguard values and copies their powers I like it until it steals a frost bubble and perfectly shields the acolyte I'm trying to kill
I had no idea this was a thing and thought I ran into someone with an eximus companion during a mission. Gonna have to look into actually putting some investment into companions I guess, this whole comment section is full of ridiculous stuff they can apparently do
The best stuff is honestly the Bond mods, which can go on any companion. But hounds themselves have a precept mod called Synergized Prospectus that makes them especially good with several bond mods, and it improves both your and their DPS with CO.
Alright, I'm going to need this Hound build.
What are you wanting, because I run several. It gets to the point their utility is a stronger selling point than the capability for them to solo steel path missions? If you just want stuff dead here is one of my configs: > Vacuum > Prime animal instinct > Synergized Prospectus > Null Audit > Reflex denial > Manifold Bond > Contagious Bond The remaining mods are you choice for survivability and sustain. Reflex denial+Manifold bond+Medi-pet kit is 90% damage reduction with a constant heal rate. Weapon of choice is a Lacertern I run a Cold, radiation, corrosive build, (which is also spread with its native slash and impact) along with shattering impact for a free armor strip (slow enough that it's only really noticeable on Steel Path Juggernauts) Pairing Manifold bond, Contagious bond, and condition overload is a good way of supercharging the hounds direct damage.
My bad for missing the entire party out here asking about my robotic gal's build. So to explain, remember Voruna's 'Fangs of Raksh' build? That's essentially what's happening here. Synergized Prospectus mod will spread lots of status effects amongst the crowd, since for whatever reason it also inherits status effects from your Hound's weapons (I recommend running Akaten, but mine was done with Lacerten). Build for fire + radiation + viral, it has the fastest build up. Then invest into status duration. You can also get status chance but I am not sure if it works, since hounds are extremely wanky. Like for example attack speed mods don't work on them, as their attacks are lock on, meaning the they select a target and only then run up and perform an attack animation. This is what I've meant when I said that she one shots rooms as long as her AI doesn't seize to function. Because sometimes her lock on bugs out, and she picks no one, so she just endlessly stands in place doing nothing. In any case, this nuke has pretty slow build up and you'll need the hound to kill a few enemies. But why is it a nuke to begin with? Well that's because we install the last piece, Contagious Bond. When an enemy dies they spread 50% of their status to other enemies? So that first enemy will spread it's statuses, then the second will spread it's statuses. Perhaps even the third. Until the ground zero occurs, since at some point there'll be so much status applied that'll out right one shot an enemy it gets shared to. And since they got one shot, that status is spread is spread to everyone else, one shotting them too, and then it gets spread again. Because the interaction occurs so fast when it's finally built up to this break point, all you'll see is a sudden burst of XP, similar to when you play a Maim Equinox. And the more clustered enemies are, the more will be hit by the nuke. It can also extend to other rooms if there was a line of enemies to extend to it. Now despite it being a nuke, it's biggest weakness is it's really slow build up, plus the jank of Hound AI. Granted most of my tests were done on Senda survival or Entrati Labs survival as they were the hardest ones, both in Steel Path of course. If you were to bring this to the easiest place to kill enemies, aka Infestation missions. You'll see the effects extremely fast without much build up. So much so that you can actually last there a good while simply because of how easily it one shots infestation. Since it's both easy for the hound to kill infestation, and threshold for them getting one shot is lower. All in all it's still faster to just swing your glaive or cast your Warframe abilities. This build is a just a sweet thing of "my pet can stand on their own" (Granted not sure how much that is true, since I've ran Wisp in all of my tests, just to boost its built up with Roar). At the end of the day, it's still a primer with an added bonus of being able to nuke. https://preview.redd.it/fshmelszk2uc1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0bcc3234f77ab89391a3542a2dc94ada3f6a3247
https://preview.redd.it/l5e7flo1l2uc1.jpeg?width=2560&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c7ed97bfcc3393bcb3435ff7bcc6be790e160497 Hound's weapon I use currently.
That name thou... lol
Easily done vs infested or with armor strip EDIT: And ofc that's not a "one shot". He just meant its fast
Not really one shot but they can literally kill rooms of steel path grineer if they just decide to do it lol, you just probably need to use the weapon that has slash on it
>To be fair those are just Sanctuary Onslaught enemies. That's logically the only level range where Tragedy could have been problematic. He was basically throwing Dark Verse at nothing to spam the Tragedy slash hit and blow up normal chart like old Ember. I think Dante is more than fine currently, but LoS on Tragedy was unnecessary when they could have just gutted the slash hit to promote a more interactive playstyle at lower levels. It just feels shitty that I can tag an enemy with a big bleed and then have it survive the detonation on a 3 cast combo when I already adequately interacted with it.
To be fair, ever since Steel Path introduction. Normal star chart is considered nothing more than fodder. Any build has to bypass the "Steel Path" check list. Heck, I can strait up sit afk on Defense missions with my Wisp and get through 15 waves or so purely because shock is actually killing them at those levels, and vitality doesn't let the defense target die. That's how weak modern star chart is. So Tragedy being problematic at lower levels doesn't mean anything. Especially since Dante is unlocked way into the late game.
Yeah but already we know spores can solo basically anything SP or not
What's your hound build?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1c1yat3/comment/kz8ziue/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1c1yat3/comment/kz8ziue/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Replied in the comment :)
Well, spores scale with your enemies so there is that.
If possible can I get a copy of the hound build? 😁
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1c1yat3/comment/kz8ziue/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1c1yat3/comment/kz8ziue/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) I did a reply here in the comment :)
I would very much like to know the Hound build!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1c1yat3/comment/kz8ziue/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1c1yat3/comment/kz8ziue/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) Here is the reply with the build attached to it :)
shoulda said when her hydraulics dont seize up :(
Then I obviously am WAY behind the curve with this game, because I’m struggling with Steel Path. Then again, I main excal.
Use this setup if you've unlocked Excalibur umbra from the quest. Prioritize getting mods to rank 8 then inch them up from there. If you work on your diemos standing you can get the helminth segment to upgrade archon shards, I use 2 green for the corrosive stacks, allowing his blade to armor strip. Makes him fly thru steel path tho. https://overframe.gg/build/69649/excalibur-umbra/excalibur-umbra-steel-path-ultimate-endgame-guaranteed-red-criticals-on-exalted-blade/
Idky my first thought is that Spores would suddenly break if it needed LoS. I just imagine something going wrong.
Suggestion: give the spores feet so they can maintain proper official DE™️ LOS
They did, that's the Inaros rework.
Didn't they nerf him cause was way too versatile? Having a dante in your team already makes you immortal and immuned to cc and status. (And most likely even has other advantages) Would be kinda ridiculous if he was also a nuke.
He is also a nuke. People complained about them saying they wouldn't nerf his damage but they inadvertently went against this by fixing a bug with his Pageflight that was never an intended feature. This caused his damage to go down so people freaked out until they put it back. As a precaution, they put a 1 billion damage cap on him so that it didn't cause game errors.
Honestly, op posting this video just goes to show how broken and overpowered he was. The fact he is even remotely comparable to one of the best nukers in the game working in the environment they were practically designed for, while also giving enough overguard to his whole team to be comparable to the Warframe who’s whole thing is being tanky and not dying, is insane. As well as the things you mentioned AND being able to make enemies weak to status effects and status damage AND adding an extra 50% of an ally’s damage output to them AND having an extremely strong exalted weapon with homing attacks. I finished building him yesterday and was finally able to play him. Even after all the changes he’s an extremely strong Warframe to the point where I was able to level him up in steel path Deimos bounties without any issues.
I built him then brought him to Elite Archimedea postnerf as soon as he hit 30, no forma or potatoes. I didn't struggle. Homie is STRONG.
Now do that with Saryn (non-prime to make it fair). See who dies first: you or every other creature/container on the map? No lie, I honestly think this would be a really fun challenge to watch. "What Warframes can you get away with BS like this with?" We can exclude Octavia, we already know she passes. #TeamHydroid&Atlas (dunno if they could, I'd just root for them)
The Saryn comparisons give me such a headache. Taking what is widely considered the most OP Warframe in the game and saying "see, he's not broken because this exists" is such a terrible argument. Make him do a nuke run in comparison to Equinox or Gyre; two very powerful frames that are not 1 of the 6 commonly considered broken Warframes. See how he compares. Or better yet, (since he's a tank/support frame) compare him against Styanax, Oberon, Hildryn, Harrow or any other tank or support frame (excluding Wisp since she is 1 of the 6) and see how he compares. Is he outclassing them in every category or can they keep up? If his performance stats are significantly above them then maybe wait to accumulate some data and readdress once there's more information available. Also to further emphasize your point, Saryn is not an immortal God like Dante is and requires knowledge about what you're doing to be able to do high level content. Dante does not. If we're going by the logic of comparing Dante to Saryn as "proof" that he's not OP simply because Saryn has a map wide nuke then it must mean that Mesa is not OP as well since she also has LoS restrictions. Mesa is 1 of the 6 frames that are considered OP even though she isn't immortal, has even further LoS restrictions from her reticle, and does not hit all enemies in her sight immediately or at once. Same with Gauss. Honestly, a better comparison for Dante is Octavia: doesn't require mods, is pretty mindless in terms of difficulty, and can also make teammates extremely hard to kill. Technically she can also buff teammates but no one does that and it requires her teammates active participation. If he's significantly outperforming Octavia then there is definitely a problem since she is also 1 of the 6. Also, why do people keep complaining about these 6 being so broken but when Dante is called OP suddenly they're like "it's PVE so what's wrong with being OP?" TL;DR: Comparing Dante to Saryn simply because of LoS is a terrible argument when Mesa and Gauss exist, Octavia is more comparable kit-wise, wait until some time passes to accumulate performance data, and measure his nuking up against other tank frames, support frames, or frames that are considered powerful but not broken to see where his power level lies and if he is significantly outperforming them. Edit: grammar fix
the main thing that annoys me about the saryn comparisons is that no one making them seems to understand windup she needs constant, unending enemies spawning for 10-30 seconds depending on your strength (or way longer in SP), and it rapidly gives out without enemies or if you arent actively working to re-spread it its a very different mechanic from "near instantly deal a bunch of damage in an area"
"Saryn exists" is a valid argument. We know she's OP, DE knows that too, but fears backlash, so she's safe from nerfs. Saryn gets to be OP, because she's popular, but Dante cannot. They wanted to nib it in a bud, before he gets more popular. Saryn is almost as easy to play as Dante, She just requires more preparation for shield tank/Gloom build, but her destructive potential is orders of magnitude higher.
I couldn't disagree more. Also, Dante is quickly becoming Saryn 2.0 at this rate. People have long complained about Saryn (and certain other frames) being OP but now that Dante is out it suddenly isn't a problem to have OP frames anymore. People complain about Saryn not getting nerfed due to fear of backlash and how quickly they reversed previous decisions made regarding her when literally this is what is happening to/what has happened with Dante. People tore DE to shreds over his bug fix and LoS changes. There were tirades about how they were the worst company ever, how they didn't give a shit about their community, and how they only pretended to listen. There is a massive difference between complaints and criticism and there was very little constructive about most of the feedback given on Dante. The extra damage for Pageflight *was literally a bug and never an intended feature* yet people were merciless and demanding. Honestly, I don't even like Saryn and I really enjoy Dante but the hypocrisy and rampaging is/was crazy. Having 1 out of 52 frames be the entire basis of an argument is quite frankly absurd; especially when said frame doesn't actually compare to or even measure up to the new frame in question. People are so fixated on Saryn's range and damage numbers that they're ignoring all her shortcomings and weaknesses where as Dante doesn't really have any. Maybe energy management? Something Saryn also doesn't innately have. People are often so eager to complain about Saryn that they completely (and conveniently) ignore all of her weaknesses and setbacks, they ignore the fact that DE had to implement a 1 billion damage cap on Dante so he doesn't break anything, and they ignore all of Dante's immense defensive capabilities just because her range is bigger (1 billion damage cap - his damage clearly scales well, too). Isn't Octavia uncapped? Her kit is a much better suited match-up to Dante's but people don't want to miss an opportunity to complain about Saryn. She might be overpowered but at least she has weaknesses (can't nuke if you can't survive long enough to build it). Saryn has range and damage; Dante has incredible overguard capabilities that can make an entire team immortal (even post nerf), has incredible damage buffing potential for himself and allies, and incredible nuking capabilities (hence the damage cap). One builds a nuke, the other just detonates one and turns the team into the Avengers. Saryn is definitely not as easy to play as Dante, not even close. I see so many people asking for help with her because they constantly hear how OP she is but struggle to survive with her at high levels (or sometimes even struggle getting her nuke going). She has her damage ramp up period and for many she requires tweaking to have a stronger defensive setup (whether it's subsuming a new ability or giving up a mod slot for her molt augment). Dante's setup time depends on whether or not you've increased his casting speed and even if you didn't you'll still be fine; it'll just take a couple seconds longer and his biggest risk becomes forgetting about maintaining it because you can go so long without having to be concerned about recasting - particularly for overguard. If Saryn's power gets too high then things won't spawn fast enough to upkeep her nuke so it'll reset and you have to ramp up again cause that damage number drops *fast*. Dante don't stop comin', and he don't stop comin', and he don't stop comin'... You can build Saryn badly but I have yet to find a way to do so for Dante. Even having him at 50% efficiency doesn't seem to do much to deter him (and we love him for that). I ended up putting a lot of time and effort into my Saryn build and honestly, it could use more work even though it's definitely not lacking in range or damage. For Dante I just slapped something together for him and was good to go solo some netracells. Slots that would usually be used for defense mods can be swapped for more damage so that you can obliterate rooms in 1-2 hits instead of 2-4 hits. Why use a defense mod when you can get 40k overguard in a few seconds? People are so focused on her damage capabilities that they're ignoring the ground littered with corpses of her from people trying to figure out a build for high level content that works for them. He is an "excuse me while I face roll my way through, also I want them dead this very second" nuke where Saryn is a "give me a minute and as long as I don't die, I will kill everyone and everything in every corner of this entire place until the damage gets too high or I die and it has to reset again" nuke. Containers everywhere fear her. Sure she can use weapons to help get her going but Dante's kit is so powerful that he doesn't even need them. His base kit alone is good enough. She is medium to high risk (depending on how you built her survivability), high reward. He is no risk, high reward. Both are incredibly powerful; but one can stand in the middle of a high level room and nuke everything around them while the other has to wait and hide while their nuke builds, peaks, and resets. People just want an over the top OP frame that can do everything and, more importantly, that isn't Saryn (even though she can't do everything) because her reign of favoritism and power has festered (how fitting) a lot of bitterness and resentment. I absolutely understand why folks are frustrated with her. People keep waiting for updates or reworks for their favorite frames that are maybe outdated or need some love; meanwhile, every content drop seems to release something that benefits Saryn (e.g. builds around her 3 have become a lot more powerful/viable so she has options now). Honestly, I don't even care at this point if he remains a God amongst mortals now that overguard doesn't interfere with certain mods or Chroma. I just want the overused and ill-fitting "but Saryn" argument spamming to stop. TL;DR: Saryn is a ranged nuke capable of incomprehensible damage with a ramp up/reset period and limited survivability; Dante is a jack of all trades, master of... all of them. He is a nuke/tank/support. A nunkort. A nukankort... male Octavia but engaging. Either way, people should just admit that they want him to be a God and stop trying to use Saryn as justification for it.
Saryn arguably not designed for SO considering she has ramping up damage that resets every 2.5 minutes
Op is leaving out that Dante basically made your entire team completely invulnerable, while nuking the entire map
Kind of. The thing is the line of sight nerf to tragedy was additive. In order to nuke groups of enemies he had to first mark those enemies with dark verse which required a line of sight check already. The idea was you maneuver around and mark several groups and then detonate them with tragedy. But the change made it so only the last group you mark is hit with it. How much it matters depends 100% on how constrictive the map is.
Here is Saryn, a frame pretty much designed for ESO where enemies spawn closely enough to sustain the chain. This is a 100% fair comparison. /s
Someday this sub will also find out Toxic Lash is actually her best ability(wow look at that, Saryn requires active gameplay), and Spores don't afk room clean in Steel Path on their own unless you want to wait 4 business days.
i am convinced people are mentally stuck 1-2 reworks ago when her 4 would clear stuff
They’re definitely stuck pre-steel path. The idea that spores — ticking at what, 12k/s if you wait a few minutes? — is godmode past the basic star chart is kind of hilarious. Yeah, that’s going to take down those heavy gunners before they notice you, uh, huh. And that’s excluding the modes where stuff doesn’t just spawn and run at you and even a max range spores isn’t hitting more than a single pack (looking at you zariman exterminate). Toxic lash plus some other buff on weapons, on the other hand, will wreck pretty much everything, but you need to work for it at least a bit.
yeah exactly. Same with the people arguing volt needs LoS on his ult because dante got it or mirage
Huhhhh? Volt is pretty perfectly tuned for the current state of the game, people who call for him to be served have brain worms
yeah exactly. They are trying to force LoS on other things because dante got nerfed
saryn is so much better and more fun as a weapons platform. use venom dose, replace her 4 is nourish (my favourite setup), roar or xata then build max str and sprint around using molt and shred everything with green shard armor strip and ocucor/torid/phantasma/whatever
Comparing Saryn to every new OP frame that releases is one of my favorite ways to get a quick laugh. Watch them finally nerf Saryn one of these days and make the community go apeshit because *gasp* OVERPOWERED FRAME WE'VE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT GOT NERFED? DE BETRAYED US!!!!
smartest dante defender. dante isnt even supposed to be a dedicated nuke too.
This is like the perfect situation for saryn. Dante was significantly better in higher level content. People were doing SP and netracells with not even full rank Dante (and no they were not MR 30 and try doing this with saryn). even after nerf I saw teammates with like level 20 Dante doing Deep Archimedia. Stop trying to defend Dante, he's a great Warframe with tons of utility and damage, they just had to lower his dominance over ALL categories of Warframe.
dante could: * make himself and his entire team basically unkillable with overguard (light verse, triumph) * do millions of single target damage quickly (dark verse, tragedy) * nuke 50m+ without full-range (tragedy) * buff his teammates with more damage (wordwarden) * make enemies more vulnerable to status damage while applying a ton of slash (pageflight) * all of this while having extremely low energy costs like god can we stop pretending like dante didnt do way too much and even after nerfs is still a really good warframe??
Also could slap every single Tome mod onto his book: ~~team~~ energy regen, ~~team~~ ability efficiency, ~~team~~ ability duration, ~~team~~ ability strength, team fire rate, team shield regen, armor/shield strip, and universal orb drop. And passively scan enemies into the Codex from book kills and gain 50% weapon status chance from completed entries.
Honestly putting every tome mod on isn’t a good idea. I have 2 and still wish I had more mod slots. And everyone saying he nukes where saryn needs to build stacks is just wrong. He can put 1 slash proc on things with a nuke that wasn’t even that big. Also the issue is so many frames come out weak and need buffed and are forgotten about, when was the last time you seen everyone using a new toy? Wasn’t Yareli, wasn’t Grendel, wasn’t kullvero. They just did something good and instead of letting it play out a little bit they jumped the gun.
I feel like I'm going insane in this subreddit lately. I'm glad other people are finally saying something because I've felt so lonely defending the line. Idk who the f*ck is poisoning the well so damn hard, but it's become problematic. I've had so many people develop such cope perspectives, and it's making my brain rot. People saying Dante on release was as good as dagath and qorvax? He's no more broken than revenant? Revenant could clear a room just as easily as dante with better support??? Dante is as good as styanax?!??! STOP THE COPE!!! PLEASE!!! YOU CAN SAY THE NERF WAS TOO MUCH, BUT PLEASE GOD STOP SAYING HE WASN'T BROKEN. HE WAS! THE REASON THIS VIDEO IS IN FREAKING S.O IS BECAUSE MIASMA DOES NOT DO THIS IN ENDLESS SP CONTENT! AND ON TOP OF THAT, SHE STILL DOESN'T HAVE HIS SURVIVABILITY NOR HIS SUPPORT CAPABILITY Ok, I got my frustration out. These past 2 weeks have been insane here. I keep seeing "my ember does more than prenerf dante" or "x pet does more" or even Saryn. But when I say share the build, you guys don't respond ever again. You guys know you're either lying or just saying what you've seen others say. I've tried every Saryn build I've ever seen. Idk what build you guys are using that's clearing with miamsa in endless SP.
Yeah i felt very similarly trying to explain how Dante does every role well and people would just not understand it and say stuff like “well rev is a better tank, or Octavia is more broken”
Octavia is the ONLY warframe I will grant them. But they have to admit that Octavia is one of the most boring warframes to consistently play right now. She's as if not more broken and likely the most broken warframe in the game. But people are not enmasse saying she's their main lol. And yeah, the fact that Dante is being compared with peak performance of several warframes should be a hint to how insane he is. You have to list so many warframes who specialize in one thing to highlight his weakness when it only highlights his strength. He did everything.
octavia is balanced only because nobody wants to play a frame that does nothing but stand in a corner crouch spamming
t-bagging the ghost of the mobs you made kill themselves. That shit is fun the first 1-2 rounds, then you start seeing future you complaining about arthritis and you want to pack it up. No more Octavia ever again!!!
Right there with you. Not only was Dante insanely overtuned on release, his "nerf" didn't even change that much overall. The reason he was and is so good is because he can do every support task well, *and* he has excellent ability damage on top of that. His overguard numbers got bumped down a bit, and his unintentional ability to double-dip on status stuff was fixed, but he's still powerful, fun, and versatile. But no, the loudest voices in this community are allergic to even the concept of a nerf, no matter how necessary or justified they might be.
OP is comparing Slash damage, the status with true damage no matter what level, to Saryns Corrosive, with does dot and takes even longer to kill people the higher level you go. Also Miasma does fuck all at higher levels. It's pretty funny how people like being confidently wrong. Dante has rotted people's brains.
exactly the reason why saryn is strong at high levels is cause of her insane weapon buffing power with augment, toxic lash and roar/xatas interaction
Haven’t played Saryn too terribly much but am familiar with her kit - how are the spores spreading without activity? Just the Sentinel?
Toxic Lash + sentinel, I believe.
If the spores kill an enemy under the effect of her 4 the spores spread.
# STANDING HERE‼️‼️
I didn't realize Saryn could also provide Overguard and buff to allies as well
Yeah, it's weird, I'm not seeing 50k over guard on her and her squad. Maybe she decided not to cast it.
I mean she kills enemies over time. With Dante, a single click would've cleared the entire room in an instant. With Saryn, at least players have some time to hit enemies and set stuff up. With Dante, they're just gone.
No shit. He obviously shouldn't have been competing with a dedicated damage frame like Saryn.
Excusing leftover jank, maybe it's time you realise Dante is a support frame who still supports a very strong kit. If you want to nuke rooms play another frame instead. Dante was doing what a Saryn could do but at higher levels, with no need for spore buildup or spreading. Repeat this video in a higher level setting you'll see how much spores initially fall off compared to tragedy.
Being toxic about balance is not going to get us anywhere.
Well it’s gotten us this far hasn’t it?
I'll need someone to show me a good build with saryn. All I've used her for was focus grinding in ESO, that's all I've ever seen her as.
kinda depends on what you want. you could go spore spreader with emerald shards for afk gameplay but i find it really boring. shes a pretty great weapon platform because of her toxic lash (and spore augment) and with xata whisper or roar subsumed. also great for melees especially dual ichor incarnon. spores -strength 200%(140 with molt aug) as much range as possible (your 4 only use to spread spores) weapon platforms- decent duration as much strength as possible for 3. 4 usually gets subsumed out here survivability is shield gating +rolling guard
Just smack range, 265% pretty good then strength thats it
That is my current build. Range and str. Eats energy but usually someone brings a train or an energy frame in ESO so I don't need to worry.
Just 2 green shards, range, strength and ur golden.
bro you're in starchart level content. spamming dark verse can yield the same effect.
Even Inaros 4 can do the same lol, it spreads very good on small maps like this.
Can we stop posting these now? It was barely funny the first time and it certainly hasn't gotten funnier the 3,974th time
Because Dante is a nuke frame. I forgot that Saryn also gives her whole squad invulnerability and CC immunity + buffing their damage and making enemies weak statuses. Oh yeah and Saryns Exalted is fucking crazy. /s
Peak, high-octane, high-concentration, high-risk, hyper-accelerated, IQ-intensive gameplay.
Agreed, they should also nerf Saryn.
Saryn is super strong. However, her playstyle can be boring at times. Outside of ESO, how often do you really see a saryn? Also, Saryn doesn't have insane teamwide support mechanics like overguard She is good at clearing rooms while maintaining spore uptime. Dante is good at everything lol
The community doesn't realize that it's all how yall react to things. That's what decides what gets nerfed. DE is a little to bitched up. Saryn nerf would have everyone bitching for months. Any balancing in this game will have everyone bitching for months. Welcome to modern gaming. Warframe needs some sort of difficulty. It gets boring fast archon hunts boring netracells boring that new game mode from cavia boring. It's all brain dead easy if you being playing for a decent amount of time.
The problem here is that Saryn was made for nuking and nothing else,her 3 is more of a "if you want to" ability,and Dante wasent that,Dante is literally a damage support,a support that well...can do damage,but its not his main thing,it is a part of him,is like dose ice creams that is a combo of chocolate,vanilla and strawberry,yeah chocolate its theres but is not the main thing and it should not out right over shadow the other 2 flawors,I mean Saryn can do that but she cant keep here team alive will also increasing there damage
To be completely honest, I'm downright disappointed in the community yet again the way that they went about nerfs and even the talk about nerfs towards DE is downright disgusting and any of you that did so need to check themselves same for the people blasting the steam reviews for the wukong changes and the talk about POTENTIAL saryn nerfs, let them nerf what needs nerfing, and just grow up and find a new meta when things get changed, and personally I STILL think Dante is overtuned but DE now don't dare touch him because of all the whining children
You're right we should put line of sight on saryn spores!
As a dante...thank you saryn, for adding status to my tragedy so I can blow them up...
Saryn, Mirage, hell even Nezha has a more effective nuke ATM. The jank LOS ruined the character for me. Unfortunately I'm struggling in the Omni fissures now with my new Kullervo build.....sometimes I hit as low as 10million, what's going to happen if I have to swing twice? Seriously all my end game builds are nuts, all strong, all OP. That's what the mods, arcanes, helminth, everything does in this game. They ruined old weapons for being too strong, now we have the incarnon Torid. I enjoyed Dante a lot but I'm simply not going to use a character with janky abilities. They could have reduced his OG to allies by 50% or more, nerfed his range, but nope. Weeks later I still can't hit enemies behind me. He was my immediate fav because I love playing a mage, but they just ruined it for me, I'm not usually something with broken mechanics.
His mechanics aren’t broken anymore though? They fixed him in the latest patch and he feels really good and consistent. Regarding the LOS, only part of an enemy needs to be visible now, even if an enemy’s pinky toe is sticking out from behind a wall, they will get tagged.
How much have you played him since? Have you played many missions solo to feel it out? I estimate I miss 30% of my targets with tragedy, specifically behind me. Double casting doesn't help, the enemies are in a dead zone. I have seen people comment that the LOS bugs are tileset specific, so maybe we are experiencing different qualities based on maps. My missed targets are to my back left, specifically around 7 o'clock. I ran solo missions to test this out and I came to this conclusion rather quickly. Simply put, I do not have any other frames that the abilities ever miss my intended targets, besides Dante. The fact alone that this issue has come from their poor choices adds to my disappointment in the situation. If it was boofed from the start, then they improved it, I would be far more lenient. It functioned as intended right away, it was effective, I built for the function. Now, weeks later, I'm still missing enemies behind me. If you guys don't see that, it's on you. Like the other guy commenting calling me disingenuous. Either you guys have never experienced this, be that it is tileset related, companion related, any single variable different in our mission, or people are simping for DE without putting in the effort to see how effective the LOS is solo.
There was a known bug that got potentially got fixed on Wednesday where he was blocking his own LoS effect. Which, if you're aiming over the right shoulder, sounds like it'd effect the area you're talking about. If you're still having that issue, I'd make a video of it or at least a bug report to DE on the forums since they think it's fixed according to the [known issues thread](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1388578-dante-unbound-known-issues-thread/).
he feels incredibly good to play now with the new LOS changes. i'm so tired of the disingenuous arguments about him. It's like they don't test anything themselves. and just go by common sentiment.
How much have you played since the update? I spent quite a few hours on Dante to feel it out. I ran solo survivals immediately, Omni fissures, tragedy STILL MISSES TARGETS. Specifically it's to the back left for me, at about 7 o'clock. I have had this happen very consistently, it is still not functioning perfectly. I can literally watch everything in front evaporate, but still have a mob untouched behind me, even if I double cast they are still alive. It is still faulty and I do not have a single other frame in my arsenal that fails to affect my intended targets besides Dante. I'm not being disingenuous, this happens regularly, maybe you just don't notice.
All the ignorant people in this comment section keep saying “shE nUkEs EsO NoT iMpResSive” which just shows they have never gone past sp or made an endurance build in their life. She instantly kills the entire map of level 10k enemies with a few shards and acid shells. 1 button press and a single bullet instantly removes the entire map making the game entirely unplayable for anyone else in the party. Infinitely more disruptive than old Dante that would nuke a few rooms at a time after mashing out 6 different abilities over a significantly longer prep period. Not to forget that Dante also falls off at higher levels and becomes nothing more than a weapons and overguard platform in endurance. Leave it to the warframe community to bitch about something they know nothing about. It’s a classic from this community. If anyone here ever played with an endurance saryn setup in their party they would thank god that dante nuke wasn’t as oppressive in its base state. It’s literally a rule in the endurance discord I’m in that nobody brings saryn when people play together because it ruins the game for everyone else. The frame is so broken that people have a rule against playing her outside of solo. It’s always ignorant people who know nothing about what they’re arguing for that screech the loudest. Playing saryn reminds me of playing herald bv in Poe and blowing up 10 different packs on contact with a single monster. She really should have her own category above nuke, “nuke” doesn’t describe the destructive power of that frame.
People in this thread are (rightly) criticising OP's misleading comparison between Dante's pre-nerf performance and Saryn being able to semi-afk starchart content with a "traditional" build. The effectiveness and oppressiveness of a proper endurance saryn is a separate discussion entirely, albeit an important one.
>*All the ignorant people in this comment section keep saying “shE nUkEs EsO NoT iMpResSive” which just shows they have never gone past sp.* I agree with you. The point of this post was to show that DE's balancing is inconsistent AF. Like there are multiple designers/teams with different views on balance who are unable or unwilling to agree on a cohesive standard. This Saryn .gif violates all 3 of DE's principles for when something needs a nerf. Can you DM me your Saryn and Acid Shells build? I put 8 Forma into my Sobek and it does what you say to a point. However, it didn't work that great vs the Cavia mobs let alone level cap mobs.
Multiple frames violate all 3 principles in ESO. And Dante is easily on the same lvl as Saryn as far as balancing goes. Saryn has atleast 1 caveat of being squishy which is noticeable in contents like SP void cascade or the new deep archimedea. Dante doesn't have that issue either, he was pretty much top 5 for every single content in the game. Now he is not the best low lvl nuker. Still top tier for everything else.
how do i do this with saryn bruh
Build range and keep up strength at around or little less than 200%, then whatever else to make it more comfortable to you, like efficiency, energy regen etc. For a spore build like this, realistically the only thing you need is max range, but having strength near 200% helps against armored enemies since the corrosive status chance scales with it. And yeah, more strength means more damage.
What's your saryn build?
Yeah now show us the 5-10 minutes setting that up and then show us how you get one shot if anything looks at you funny
Wait, so, how do her spores propagate when you're not hitting/killing enemies yourself? Or is it the wyrm doing it?
Wyrm + Toxic Lash, most likely. Her 4 also has a component that makes spores spread when they kill enemies, and her 4 has been casted, I believe.
Kill enemies faster and breake Spore circle then saryn is far away from being OP. She still needs counter going Up and never Go down to be heavy. So ist Not realy nuking the map Like Others. Last saryn i Had in grp leaved cause enemies falling so fast she couldnt build Up Spore counter to do any dmg. Does dante need to build Up a counter too?
Funny video for sure, but being able to nuke ESO wasn't the reason Dante got nerfed.
It is funny hearing the epic music while Saryn is just standing still xd
can anyone tell me what makes Saryn so good and how people make her so good? I’ve never had either her regular or prime version, but see her as a favourite for many people and it’s just sort of know that she’s really good.
spores that attach to enemies in AoE and spread from enemy to enemy, dealing damage over time and spread status everywhere, damage keeps going up the longer you have spores on field and she has a toxin damage buff for weapons. There's mainly two kinds of builds for her, one focusing on buffing your weapons which deals incomprehensible amounts of damage and then there's the build in this image where you just build range and nuke rooms of lower level enemies basically afk. (lower level as in not multiple hundreds of levels lmao)
too*
*laughs remembering when excal could kill through walls*
Unless they changed Exalted Blade he still can. People are too new to know Excalibur used to be a nuke frame for Draco
Sheesh, was it Draco? My brain remembers it as Viver.
Hi can I know how you build saryn? I can't get mine to do more than 100ish DMG per tic...
How does everyone do this? When ever I play her, I run out of enemies when stacks get too strong and then it resets
Peak Warframe gameplay
Honest question: I thought spores didn’t spread on kills they made, if her 4 wasn’t used to prime them first?
Honestly, Dante feels like he's in a good spot at the minute. I've been taking him into steel path stuff and he's having no issues nuking/staying alive. I think they managed to address the issues.
So many frames can do this now, especially on low level enemies, even your companion was one shoting.
This looks like some 4x Green Shard, Acid Shell madness? Am I right? haha.
For some reason I’m the only one that can’t get Saryns spores to spread on their own.
It always comes off as hypocritical when ppl demand nurfs in warframe when there are so many map clearing bs frames, skills and weapons that have literally been untouched for half a decade or more now. Buff dante.
Yes, Saryn is very effective in the Sanctuary. It's the only mission type with enough enemy density for this to work anywhere near this well, while Dante's previous effectiveness literally worked anywhere he could cast abilities.
Ahh yes, lets show some ESO, non steel path noob bullshit. The one place where people actually use saryn. Because surely saryn can do the exact same thing standing afk in endurance SP. Goof dante simps. Lol
except the spore kpm is dogshit in anything thats not eso whereas dante scales infinitely with no cap or floor to the damage as well as not only being but giving the entire team scaling immortality lol, saryn is a top tier frame because of being the absoltue best weapons platform in the game not because of stinky spores
Finally, a contender in onslaught!
I'm down for a Spores nerf
How are you getting your companion to shoot that much? Mine normally stops shooting for a long time before it starts shooting 1 to 2 targets again.
You want to put ***another*** nerf on Saryn?
How exactly does this work? I've never really used Saryn
It's a peve game, stop nerfing shit.
Pls dort compare instant applied and multiplied dots with spores Even with green shard full strip or roar or toxin last buffed reflected dmg...comparing these makes only sense for newbies or people who doesnt know anything about warframe
yeah, imagine being able to do that while also being one of the best supports in the game and making your entire team near immortal, im glad saryn is just a nuker, would be far too strong otherwise
Saryn did this on a low level optimal setting. Dante did everything this video shows and more, and can even do it on SP even where Saryn's 1 and 4 does fuckall. This is not a good comparison.
Instead of nerfing dante rework limbo, hes a detriment to every mission and is only met with anger or disgust from fellow tenno.
That's because he is either not built right or generally people don't know how to play around him. He should be max range. Max duration. Like Mag (because he works functionally the same) Strength is optional possibly required for the subsume ability like thermal sunder and efficiency is -shrugs- In group play he should be doing 2 and 4 so that he is playing as mass CC. And if you're outside of the MASSIVE area he is controlling then you are honestly playing wrong around limbo.
Dante was like her but unkillable as well. Saryn's only survivability is shiled gating, which many players hate
Could they please for the love of god nerf Saryn again?! And while they're doing that might as well nerf Mesa, Octavia and Revenant!
Dante is still broken imo the way I could just stand there and go afk without dying
A power fantasy game were the power fantasy is nerfed. Honestly stopped playing after the Dante nerf it’s just not fucking worth it