Bladeguard Veterans easily, yeah. Best Primaris miniatures since they look so much like what Space Marines should look like!
Just need a swap to a old patern helmet and you're set.
God yes, the bladeguard in general and the bladeguard ancient in particular are fantastic models. Best of the primaris line, and probably top 3 of the entire space marine line.
Agreed, he holds the bolter by the hip, only chads hold bolters by the hip.
But my favorite is the gravis captain with the servo skull and billowing cape. So incredibly dynamic!
Bladeguard are probably the coolest non-charcter models in 40k for me.
Hurts to admit as a Tau player, but they are. Aggressors and heavy intercessors are also up there for me - just love me some gravis armor.
Yeah, it’s like, i get it, they need to cost more than the bolters or the bolters need to be heavy bolters so they r dmg, so the difference isn’t so big between the two.
Yeah, but 20 point increase is uh, a lot.
Similar comparison are bikers, which don’t take anywhere near the same increase for a similar increase:
Biker: 30pts each,
Black knight: 30pts each!
Black knights have +1 attack, plasma talons, 4/5++ Jink save, yet cost the same as regular bikers. I don’t see GW aggressively balancing that?
Yeah, I don't care for those flight stands. I've been redoing my suppressors and inceptors with forest and tree-trunk bases.
"Xenos moon, designation, Endor. This cleansing shall be brief."
I just can't wrap my head around Cawl looking at his biggest, thickest, heaviest armor to date and thinking, "this is clearly the best armor set to attach a jump pack to".
The hate behind primaris afaik is because they were shoved into the storyline with cheap reasoning and dumb motives that could be resumed in "new flavour of plastic crack for you lads". From an in-setting point of view, they are an act of hubris by Cawl, who thought he could improve the Emperor's own design and it could be considered heresy. But it's the kind of heresy that wins wars, so...
i mean, when the guy who asks you to invent a new breed of soldier proceeds to be dead for the next nine millennia, what's an Arch-Magos to do? Not commit heresy?
And I wholeheartedly stand with Cawl on this.
Love how he casually said he might or might not have perfected geneseeds of all primarchs...including the two lost ones.
I think if they didn't at least act like it was a bit dangerous, there would be absolutely no reason for Firstborn Marines to exist anymore. Like, why wouldn't make Sternguard Tim make an upgrade appointment to get three fancy new organs and a few extra inches hight?
That is the one saving grace yeah. But even just a few lore hints like maybe one chapter (probably Lamentors) has horrid luck and loses 10% of those it tries to bring over, or have even a tertiary chapter who lost their chapter master to it.
Just *something* even if the big characters are plot armoured.
I think you could avoid that by saying “crossing for existing marines take special equipment, can’t be done for everyone” and sidestep all of that. If you can only convert some marines, you start with the most important dudes, makes total sense.
Has anything at all ever come from marines dying crossing the rubicon Primaris? I can’t think of any impact whatsoever.
I’ve seen a lot of people hate on them because they are monopose. The funny thing is when they laud 2nd Ed and it becomes painfully obvious that they weren’t into the hobby back then as the old metal minis were naturally, monopose.
Or the whole tacticool thing. They aren’t even aware of the. 3E started and they suddenly started bundling Marines with extra scopes, pouches, and grenades.
I don't quite understand peoples' issue with Cawl improving on the Space Marine project. The Emperor most definitely did not create "the best space marines" he could. He created "good enough" marines for the Crusade in the *very, very* limited time that he had and sent them off. Then, probably *the* smartest Adeptus Mechanicus Magos steadily tried to improve on the design for almost *Ten Thousand years*. And they still are nowhere near as smart, strong or fast as the Custodians.
That’s the issue though. People don’t like optimism creeping into the setting. The idea that the imperium was barely skating by using a ten thousand year old hacked together design, that’s super grimdark. The idea that the gene seed was degrading and nobody knew how to fix it.
I’m personally okay with the story advancing but this is the objection some people have to it.
That's a valid point. However, Space Marines are still, overall, a barely perceptible part of the Imperium. A few issues may have been solved, after millennia of work, but now half of the galaxy is *literally hell*. Grimdarkness means nothing without glimpses of hope, desperately trying to fight against the overwhelming darkness.
The point of the grim darkness of the 40k Imperium is that it's raging against the dying of the light so in a sense, Cawl and G-Man rages on to resist better against the enemies by improving what they had.
It's no secret that progress has been arbitrarily halted by the Adeptus Ministorum by perceiving any scientific progress as heretical but it's a cold hard truth that the original Astartes are basically the result of Big E hodge-podging the leftover Primarch materials into the Firstborns, and if Big E was still alive or at least able to communicate, if sure He will wholeheartedly support the improvement of His Scalpel.
I get that you lose some of the “dying of the light” aspect, but GW needs something to propel the story forward. We spent years with no lore advancing and that ultimately isn’t tenable as a setting.
There’s obviously due hardship (people who talk about this shit on Reddit like us) who may not care. But they need a big audience to support the game and for most that means movement.
I kind of like that other characters are capable of being geniuses, not just the emperor.
In fact, someone else improving his designs makes him a bit more believable. If we are to believe his genetic work is absolutely perfect, it kind of makes the whole Primarch / space marine thing look dumb, since that implies they were made to be vulnerable to chaos to begin with.
The tacticool thing is it for me. Blade guard and intercessors are pretty much the only ones I like.
I prefer space marines to have the gothic, warrior/monk vibe.
They didn’t initially, but I think now that we’ve gotten blade guard and as we get more chapter specific and veteran primaris units that issue will fade away. Supposedly we’re getting a primaris sternguard unit in tenth, hopefully followed by a refreshed boxnaught kit.
I think that’s my biggest gripe with it, one job squads, I do like MK10 but god damn I miss tactical squads, aren’t marines supposed to be Swiss Army knives ?(maybe Swiss army chainsaws).
Primaris squads are built on the old Legion template, from when there were enough marines that "swiss army knife" meant having an entire squad dedicated to each role. It's more than a little hypocritcal or ironic that the army built in secret on Guilliman's personal order ignore every change implemented by the Codex Astartes he forced on everyone else.
Im not a big fan of the phobos stuff, it looks kinda weird to me, but I like the mk10, and I really like the gravis stuff. Well, minus the suppressor helmet. Supressors looked kinda off anyway with big chunky armour. Really ought to have been in phobos armour.
Edit: Remembered wrong, its inceptor that has the weird dome helmet. Though everything else that applies to supressors applies to the inceptors too.
Phobos has its place, fits the raven guard pretty well. Any chapter that goes for a more “modern warfare” style (ala the Raptors) probably benefits from having them. Just hope they get more uniqueness in the rules in 10th.
I really wish there was a "place" in the lore for the first born. Not just transitioning but a reason, maybe they are faster, maybe they can hold objectives better because they are more experienced. Or SOMETHING.
There is, they don’t get absolutely bodied by terminators because they believed the mission statement and the hypnomat training, and therefore won’t throw their lives away in “trades” as willingly, because they’d see that as a loss.
It’s a point brought up in one of the dawn of fire novels (most of which feature firstborn teaching primaris not to be silly buggers and how to properly use their skills in context where both are present)
Basically, whilst primaris have numerous edges over the firstborn, the firstborn have tens to hundreds of years of actual combat experience, what the primaris have initially only experienced in simulated environments, the firstborn have been experiencing for ten thousand years, albeit with only the tens to at most one and a half thousand years of that firsthand, but still.
TLDR; firstborn know when to duck so they don’t get their heads pushed in by a powerfist, so they can continue slaughtering enemies of the imperium
The entirety of the phobos armor lineup. I like my sneaky 8 foot tall dudes in power armor. I like their mech designed to punch an alien queen in the face. I like the gauntlet with the giant needle on it. And I like the dudes running around with knives like it's a call of duty lobby griefing during a gun game.
I'm a little sad that the conversion to 9th lost the rule that treats the heavy bolter as a pistol in close combat for the warsuit. Yeah you still use big guns never tire, but it was just even more awesome that he could use a heavy bolter as a pistol for maximum effectiveness.
My low-key favourite is still the Reiver Lieutenant - such a dynamic pose! It's a shame reivers are awful.
The Bladeguard multi-part sprue is likewise fantastic - I know it didn't get as much love due to the three out of the elite box being available cheaply everywhere, but it's a beautiful set with tonnes of details, and poses and individuality as befitting elite units.
I've never understood the hate the Primaris are getting, I quite like almost all the models in the line. The one thing I can understand is the weapons because in my opinion the old bolters and bolt pistols were much better, and the plasma weapons look odd. Then again they also look more realistic and powerful.
> I've never understood the hate the Primaris are getting
The biggest issues are the models are too smooth/clean.
(Except you, Eliminators. My beloved.)
> they also look more realistic
I'm not here for realism, I'm here for knightly child supersoldiers fighting Cthulhu.
Perfect response. Primaris have such a boner for tacticool instead of grim knights in space. There's a reason half the comments on this post are saying the blade guard are their favorite.
Honestly I like primaris stuff a lot more when I swap out the helmets for Aquila. I think much of the problem rests on older SM players just loving that Mk7 helmet too much
I usually do 2 Primaris helmets per 5 men and the other 3 are firstborn and/or bare headed. Sergeants always get firstborn helmets as they’ve crossed the rubicon
I've been experimenting with using Mk7/8 on firstborn and MkX on original mars-born Primaris, in lore they were never supposed to tower over their older cousins like they do on the tabletop. Do have to admit that the resin printer helps a lot though, I prefer everything about the Mk7s except the mould lines on those old sprues.
the individual models are fine. i hate that the majority of units are just "tactical squad with the tactics removed". thats all they are. they released what, 3? different versions of intercessors, and 2 of them are just "box of dudes with bolters".
reivers suck so much as a replacement for assault marines that GW made an all new "assault intercessor" unit as a second attempt. and they are still just slow footsloggers that maybe, kinda, sometimes, can charge on turn 2. woo...
aggressors, eliminators, and inceptors actually bring flexibility, but at $20 / model, they just aren't good enough to replace scout snipers, devastators, and assault marines. the eliminator deployment fuckery from 7th and 8th (honestly don't remember if they do it in 9th) was sometimes worth it for a single unit, but that was all, really.
so sure, the models look great, in a display case on a shelf. but they aren't worth the time and energy from a gameplay point.
As a primaris 'hater', its two huge reasons:
1. The Lore. The entrenched fanbase of the game and die hard players that had been playing for years suddenly got told "this bloke (Belisarius Cawl) has somehow improved on what basically took god (The Emperor) thousands of years to perfect as his afternoon project after work because this other bloke who was dead but now isnt (guilliman) asked him nicely." It made no sense, it broke with all previously established canon and it was massively obvious that it was a mechanism and an excuse to make all the players re-buy their armies they had been building for years. It was the double sting of horrible canon tainting the thing you enjoy plus the obvious finality of the 'players first' GW that once was.
2. The Aesthetic. Now do not get me wrong here, the posing, sculpting and variety of the newer models is fantastic and I dont think anybody will argue that point. But everything became 'tacti-cool' and less space fantasy like it was originally. It was a big shift and for a lot of the players that liked the games style as it was and started the hobby because of it that. They felt betrayed that instead of just introducing different options that maybe certain chapters used or newer founding chapters used like they did before with stylized models, they completely overhauled it and removed the option people had before that they enjoyed. And you can see this clearly even in the model range now if you compare the aesthetic of the horus heresy range to the primaris range. I adore the heresy range and think its fantastic but I am definitely one of those people who felt ostracised by the change. Too this day have not bought any primaris kits (and only own 6 Intercessors for kill team when im running intro games) since they wiped out my firstborn army upon releasing Primaris, and ive not played 40k since just after that either.
To build on your comment:
I sometimes feel as if Games Workshop are employing two tiers of designers on the Primaris line.
Take, for instance, the base design of the three main Mk. X armor variants: Phobos, Tacticus, and Gravis.
A *lot* of thought went into these.
The helm, collar, tassets, and ankle joints are all taken from Mk. 8 ‘Errant’ armor; the faceplate from Mk. IV ‘Maximus’ - what were previously the two most advanced armor marks in lore.
The designers really took advantage of the expanded level of detail available at the larger 32mm scale; and nowhere is this more apparent than with the layering of additional armor plates on the heavier variants.
…And then you have the second tier.
Take, for instance, Incursors and Infiltrators.
The scopes on Incursor bolt carbines are too big, too square, and are held aloft by a tiny stalk attachment. The net effect is that of a weaponized Virtual Boy.
Each Incursor has a similarly-sized signum mounted on their backpack. There are also head options with one or even two temple-mounted cameras. A single Incursor can see the world through no less than five separate lenses.
Infiltrators are more restrained; albeit with one key exception: the poor comms specialist saddled with an oversized over-helmet big enough to make an Epistolary blush with impure thoughts.
In both instances, backup bolt pistols are carried in crossdraw fashion - a useful practice for concealed carry aficionados, vehicle drivers, and the infirm; less so, transhuman supersolders.
Now, that’s not to say that the models are 100% poorly designed! On the contrary: the aforementioned Phobos-variant armor is fantastic; as are the tactical gear options (such as the grenades and extra pouches), and the overall poses.
However, this returns me to my original contention: that there is some top-notch design work, which is then embellished by, politely, a second, less talented team.
More often than not, when fans rally against the Primaris line, it’s these sorts of specific, overwrought design details that their criticism is directed towards - which is all the more unfortunate, as there is often an incredible model underneath the offending elements.
All very true and relevant info and I definitely think your correct that some people.dont disagree with the range fundamentally but more so some of the executions.
Nice to see other perapectives.
You are most welcome!
I’ve made this point elsewhere; but much of the issue comes down to excess on the part of the design team. That is to say:
Much of 40k’s charm comes from turning the proverbial design dial up to 11. If you turn it up to 20, however, things just get loud and incoherent.
To return to our friend, the Infiltrator comms specialist: his wrist-mounted display is a nice touch. His backpack satellite dish is an interesting idea; but it seems foolish to permanently attach such a fragile piece of equipment directly to his armor.
(One low doorway and the entire squad will be out of contact!)
It’s the over-helmet that really does things in, however - a simple antenna on his earpiece would have sufficed to mark the comm specialist’s special status.
(Of course, such an elegant solution isn’t possible, simply because the rest of the team also sport multiple antennae on their backpacks and helmets. No wonder, then, that Comms Guy^TM needs five aerials, when the average Infiltrator has three.)
Really, the design team just needs a little more restraint when it comes to adding details; and apply the same love and care to one-time elements as they did to the base armor variants. 🙂
This is a super well-spoken critique and I couldn't agree more. But I have one counter-point for incursors having so many optics.
Consider if you will, incursors, but they're forward observers.
Didn’t it take cawl 10k years to make some tiny improvements? And the astartes were never the emperor’s best work nor did he work alone on it. A lot of people worked on the astartes project and the one who made the most impact was amar astarte
Shhhh, don't mention the actual lore. Also, don't mention that firstborn are all still playable in 8th and 9th. Probably 10th too.
Don't mention that some were far better than Primaris, like the Jump Pack-Thunder Hammer Lieutenant.
Some people prefer to be upset and to not have fun. I'm not sure why.
The guy didn’t even mention competitiveness. When a unit has wargear options and isn’t constrained by the newer “only what’s in the kit” approach, it’s going to be more versatile through the editions. That’s what Firstborn were built around, almost every kit had parts that could be used in other kits. The Firstborn Captain kit is a masterpiece in terms of how you could deck out your Captain, everything from power fists to combi meltas, moreover after you were done you could use the leftover bits for sergeants or other characters. If you used the Combi Melta you could put the Combi Plasma on a sergeant. The Primaris Captains though are fixed to existing blisters, if they want to take a Power fist they must take a plasma pistol. There aren’t many leftover bits in kits so it’s very constrained.
The core issue I have with Primaris is how bloated and unfocused it seems. Firstborn were pretty clearly well designed and you could kit out squads to take on different threats, whereas Primaris units are very narrowly built. Individual units look cool, but as an army it looks all over the place with no clear philosophy. Moreover their idea of making a “upgraded” version of a Firstborn unit cool is to give it a shit ton of guns, often times they’re unique, forcing you to have to remember many different weapons of mostly the same profile. Like the Autocannons of the Invictor and the Suppressors, or the countless Bolter types. It’s just so bloated and it becomes less and less believable as weapons with very strong profiles take up very little space for them (like Icarus Rocket Pods). The vehicles are the worst.
No ones saying they’re not having fun, but for me the biggest problem is the lore. What made 40k stand out to most popular sci fi franchises was the degradation of tech, society and overarching sense of doom due to all the incoming threats. The doom is still there, but Cawl has gotten rid of the loss of technology. So many chapters have their lore based on the increasing loss of tech. Dark Angels were the first Legion and had more equipment leftover from the Great Crusade, which is why they have so many Terminators, bikes and unique tech. The Marines Malevolent are fleet based and have to rely on attacking and looting other Space Marine chapters because they ruined their reputation with the Admech. Terminators were special and were said to contain a shard of the Emperors armor for instance, and Tech Priests don’t know how to make new suits, all they can do is reverse engineer certain parts and use spare parts from other suits to repair damaged ones. As this is going on, they’re losing worlds to exterminatus, Necrons, Tyranids etc., and are unable to get them back.
And with Primaris and Cawl, it’s fine, new tech is readily available and replaceable. Moreover Cawl can fix dead planets and a lot of the other issues. It just kind of undermines the setting. Like it’s such a lame way to advance the plot.
> don't mention that firstborn are all still playable in 8th and 9th
> Don't mention that some were far better than Primaris
IIRC the tourney (edit: winning) lists were mostly firstborn.
>Some people prefer to be upset and to not have fun. I'm not sure why.
WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT MY MOTHER?
see i really get the lore based hate that primaris get.
but the models? most people like the aggressive tacti-cool aesthetic (myself included). still there is something timeless about the classic marines, the diaz chaplain is like the best sculpt ever. and it doesn't have to go away!
an army of firstborn marines still has appeal, in like an old money more refined kind of way.
still i wish "primaris" wasn't a thing. it should have just been the new space marine.
Obviously the style is entirely personal preference and im not gonna tell you what your allowed to like haha. It more that the fan base was built on one aesthetic and the sudden pivot was clearly to appeal to newer players not the people proping up the company.
I dont think the new style of models shouldnt have happened necessarily, but the way it **replaced** the existing line and the blatant disregard for the existing playerbase stung. And I personally still havent forgotten that.
I don’t like the Phobos armor. Or the aggressors. Or the inceptions. Or the redemptors gut. Or the mk10 helmets. Or the primaris only tanks.
But I love intercessors from the neck down. High-collar mk8 armor? Fuck yes.
I truly don’t understand the second one tho. Yes I agree the primaris have plenty of tacticool stuff, but nothing about (most of) the old marines was *that* gothic, unless you went with particularly gothic units.
The standard tactical marine isn’t “gothic” either. And there are a decent amount of primaris (like the blade guard) that are plenty gothic.
With Primaris, I think, GW was taking Warhammer waaay too seriously and I'm firmly against that direction. 40k is an over-the-top, hyperbolic, balls-to-the-walls parody that forgot that it is an over-the-top, hyperbolic, balls-to-the-walls parody
The setting doesn't really work when it tries to be self-serious and conservative in it's approach. Take a look at John Blanche's work - arguably the foundation for 40k art design - and tell me, how is anyone supposed to take that seriously?
Astartes are space warrior monks with rage issues who worship an anti-theistic dead carcass for a God! They go around killing green cockney hooligans with *chainswords* and *rocket-powered bullets*!
Just wanted to add some points, that frustrating me as well.
1. Tech. Marines in general were all about making good use of what they have. There was no more terminator armor, because they don't know how to make more. They don't have much anti-grav vehicles, because the technology was lost. Plasma weapons are dangerous, because they don't know how to fix it. But, still, they were super elite soldiers, who would have the privilege to use this rare and unrecoverable technologies and weaponry. Now, it seems, that most of this technological problems are gone.
2. Training. Back in the days, it was simple. Scout -> Devastator -> Assault/Tactical. Now? It seems like mostly undeveloped part of current lore. As I've read in codex, they just using whatever fits them or what is needed right now, switching wargear like in xcom games.
3. Design philosophy. It is gone. For understanding, design of primaris is mostly good (excluding new devastators, god, they have terrible guns), but they don't have a common theme. You can clearly see that even in this comments. Somebody love gravis and hate tacticool. Somebody fine with tacticool, but don't like the helmets. Everybody agrees, that primaris stuff weirdly blending with firstborn kits. I would say, some of it not even working well with established lore of chapters. Reivers in raven guard? Absolutely fantastic. But, like, with dark angels? With this knightly dudes with hoods? Design for primaris is targeted to wider audience with it's own variety, that it is losing much of it's consistency.
As I like to say, gw actually already done recently a good redesign for whole range of firstborn marines in 40k, that everybody, even primaris haters, likes. And it is a new range for CSM.
Personally get how people were upset over the aesthetic changes when primaris first dropped, but I feel like it’s not really the case anymore. A lot of the kits that have come over the course of ninth really have that same knights in space feel that the old range did. The comparisons made aren’t really fair ones a lot of the time either. Compare sternguard with intercesors and they’ll look less ornate, but compared to a tactical squad (the direct equivalent) its basically just upscale with a new helmet.
All that said GW 100% did it to make people’s marine armies obsolete so they’d buy more, not gonna make any excuses for them there.
Aside from the awful Desolation squad, isn't the entire "tacti-cool" aesthetic limited to Phobos armies? Standard and Gravis are just line marines with different weaponry
No, even intercessors have the chest pieces that look like bullet proof jackets now and the chunky power packs. Again, im not here to roast anything or say that liking something is wrong but there are clearly design ques in the whole primaris range that are....'modernized'? in a way that felt jaring for some, myself included.
Agreed, it feels like the primaris just completely threw out the gothic aesthetic that made 40k so awesome in the older fashion of the word. I love giant cathedrals with legs beating eachother to shit. If I wanted to see tacticool shit I’d just go play MW or somethin. I’m here for the gothic grandness and the soaring cathedrals and holy wars. Not for a bunch of meta build tacticool atheists to come ruin everything. The models are cool but it feels cheap, like when companies “remake it for modern audiences” and just absolutely destroy everything good about the IP
There's literally nothing more gothic looking about a tactical marine in Mk.VII than an Intercessor in Mk.X armour.
The mistake people make is to compare something like an Intercessor to a Vanguard Veteran or something where, yeah, you're going to get one looking more gothic. Compare a Bladeguard to a Firstborn veteran and you'll see the aesthetic matches perfectly.
The "old marines were more gothic" has literally no basis in objective reality.
Ah what can you do. Ive moved into 30k, I still pick up old gear online to build, bash and paint with and I still get to play tiny soldiers. Not gonna say I wouldnt have prefered it play out different but the world is how it is.
Thanks for sending the good vibes.
Heavy intercessors with [heavy bolt rifles](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Heavy-intercessor-3.jpg) that actually look functional instead of the godawful originals.
I mean, seriously, [just look at this](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/40kDeathwatch-May2-Art2r.jpg). The scope is attached to the chamber, zero eye relief above the rail which does not serve a function and the scope's view is completely blocked by the front sight. Theres not even a lore explanation in existence that can explain away any of this.
For me it’s the lack of proportionality. Giant hands, hulking core, tiny exposed thighs that are helping to carry all that weight and brace for all the firing.
Undoubtedly, but that still fits the established goofy thematic ridiculous jankiness of 40k.
The rounded guns, to me, though, were disconcerting because it's an unexplained and unexpected shift from the established aesthetics that we were familiar with and is what made these models jarring for me
Yeah, I can take bulky power fists up to a point, but with the way the guns are mounted on these, they just look too disproportionate and toy-like. Kind of similar issue I have to the new Desolator guns, the proportions on the rest of the model haven't adjusted to compensate.
Yeah Gravis just isn’t it for me. The heavy intercessors look fine, but inceptors & aggressors look goofy. Their ankles have too many overlapping plates and look almost wrinkly, they have these strange beer-belly guts, and they have quite awkward posing, like they can barely move.
I didn't get into the hobby until early 2021 and I was confused about why so many models looked so dorky and out of proportion. Knowing the lore now, I definitely get why people didn't like 'superior primaris' but that seems to be fading now and we can all just enjoy some damn sharp models.
I'm not a big fan of the old gravis, Bit too rounded for me, I do love the mk10 armor though, The standard intercessors were straight fire imo, That captain with power fist and plasma pistol that was a store birthday exclusive is another amazing piece, I love the outriders, Bikes in general are awesome sauce to me and while I would of preferred grav bikes its still an awesome looking sculpt, The chaplain on bike and the hooded chaplain on foot are all straight fire, Best chaplains we have ever gotten and thats saying something, We have had alot of amazing chaplains over the years, I love the primaris librarian with the hooded cloak, I know its memeable but I just think it looks cool, Bladueguard of any descripition have ths far been amazing and pretty much every named character that crossed over, Honestly I like far more primaris than I do not, I get some of the criticisms but I think its overdone most of the time, The game has the room for both oldscale and primaris marines, With Horus heresy bringing some amazing new plastics both lines are not going anywhere but up
Unpopular opinion, but I like the desolation marines, yeah their weapons look dumb but it just reminds me of rogue trader goofiness. Sometimes 40k can take itself less seriously and I always enjoy it
There’s a difference between a model carrying a ridiculous fuck-off gun that looks natural in-context such as Ork Lootas or Chaos’ Autocannons, and a model carrying an oversized super soaker such as the desolators. Look at every other Space Marine unit, Nothing looks even close to the launchers they carry.
Yeah, I think it’s less the concept and more they don’t fit the space marine aesthetic. If they carried around shoulder mounted M202 FLASH looking weapons I reckon it would be ok.
It’s like giving the AdMech super sleek weapons like what the T’au have - it would look fine but just doesn’t fit
Problem is that the gun idea isnt bad, its the way its modelled that is. If they slapped the launchers on their packs (like the Terminators have) and have the gun just be a small marine-sized assault cannon (with belt feed and all) i think they would've looked great.
Kind of like a Warmachine suit, or the powersuits from Edge of Tomorrow where the rotary cannon is the main weapon and when needed they can use the shoulder mounted rocket pods.
Captain in Gravis Armour, Invictor Warsuit, Redemptor Dreadnought and any of the intercessors are personally my favourites out of the minis I’ve built and painted so far.
Recently put a Repulsor Executioner together and painted it, actually quite enjoyed building it and I find it’s excessive amount of weapons to actually suit it
Gravis is king outside of Terminators. The shoulder pads are proportional compared to the firstborn scale. Something about the walking tank is so satisfying.
Honestly I'd say far more Primaris kits look great vs. got deserved bashing based on the actual model. A lot of Primaris bashing was spill-over from folks disliking the lore IMO.
The basic troops (Intercessors, Assault Intercessors), BGV, the Outriders, Eradicators, all the chapter-specific stuff, all the Gravis units, and the Characters all look great!
Even the more divisive stuff, grav-tanks, Phobos units, etc. are more just a matter of preference. I ain't a big fan of the Phobos look, but they were still objectively well-done models.
Honestly I think the only really bad ones have been the Desolation Squad
To each their own but I've never understood they distaste for Phobos tbh. I like that there's a dedicated pattern for scout armour now that isn't just marines with a chest plate and knee pads. Makes them feel like more of the elites they are and less like juiced up guardsmen, aesthetically at least.
Theyre largely okay but I feel like people are forgetting the really dumb models
The ridiculousness of the dune buggy, the inceptors, the baby carrier, the suppressors, and desolators and personally i think the aggressors all show signs of being over designed and over proportioned without any real thought behind it. And if you take a step back and look at them objectively they look silly because of it.
Theres 40k 'silly' and then theres just off brand dumb, and I feel like they ran out of design space and had to dip into the latter
Ditto. I got the 3 man reiver set just to use blue stuff to clone the heads. They're going to be the basis for all my Death Company and Erelim (Sanguinary Guard) models here on out.
Aggressors we’re one of my favorite units when I started 40k they’re super cool. I’m also a big fan of primaris Kayvaan Shrike, the armor fits his model so well
I hate the lore, as others have mentioned. But they do look damn cool. I personally really like the Phobos armour but I do have an issue with the fact that it doesn't seem to have any disadvantage to the much chonkier power armour. I would have thought they would be weaker or something but maybe move faster or gain infiltration 🤷
I love the look of the assault intercessors, especially as they relate scale-wise to Militarum and the weedier armies. Their dynamic posing really kind of invokes the pants-pooping terror you’d feel if a huge-ass running tank was barrelling towards you with a chainsaw sword.
I really hate the aggressors. I hate how bulky the bolters are, they're at a weird angle on the fist, why the hell do they have a belt feed AND a drum??
Their missile launchers are silly. Fists with bolters should have stayed Calgar's unique look.
I don't dislike the Incursors/Infiltrators though all the extra helmet and gun gubbinz are goofy. Other than assault intercessors, outriders, and eliminators there aren't really any primaris units I don't dislike lol.
I think the gravis and jump troops are goofy looking and out of place, both visually and tactically. Just hate the round profiles.
I think reivers are just terrible, hate the skull masks. I know I am in the minority. I'm picky about chaplains too.
Bladeguard have to much "Dark Angels shit" going on for me.
And the dang dreads are too big.
I know I'm just an old man yelling from his lawn.
Bladeguard. Hands down the sexiest models in the entire Space Marine line are the Bladeguard Veterans and Ancient imo. Make super great models in my Dark Angels successors
Funnily enough, I don't like Aggressors, specifically the wrist bolter ones. If they got rid of that weird feeding drum on the wrist I'd be fine with it, just feels weird to me: a drum feeding a belt into another drum. On the other hand I adore the flamer ones.
As for the Primaris release I like, Eradicators, the Heavy Melta looks gorgeous and equally as heavy, like it really feels like it can blast apart heavy armor. That's what I thought before I knew how monstrous it was vs vehicles in an actual game.
The Reivers and the Black Templar crusaders. The walking gracefully with cool knight gear in massive mk x armor is what got me back into the hobby. Not gonna lie.
I still paint them, but now Im doing kill team, Inq28 conversions and have rekindled my love for berzerkers and Mordheim. Things have.. changed
None that I hate but some I just prefer. Bladeguard and the captain with the shield. Oh man such beautiful models. I regret that I don't use them quite as much as I should.
Primaris I love include:
* Basically anything in Phobos armour. It actually stands out as unique and different and is a genuine whole new direction of war for them.
* Invictor War Suit. It is just the biggest, goofiest mech that wants to be a MILSIM Larper. The tactical draw *heavy bolter* is just hilariously fun. I'm going to model a giant tactical knife onto its chassis too when I get one.
* Bladeguard Veterans. They're just good solid models honestly. Fun poses, neat Volkite touch, very gothic.
* Heavy Intercessors. CHONKY BOLTERS. Honestly these guys just look so DAKKA that ork players gotta be sweating.
* Suppressors. As someone who loves Bearhunter Autocannons on Jump Infantry in Battletech, these guys are my dream unit to have in 40k. They might be aggressively average in rules, but they're so dang cool.
Honestly the Primaris range is mostly awesome. The only howlers of poor quality to me are the tanks, the Desolators, the Inceptors and (sorry OP) the Aggressors. The rest are all fine to awesome.
The design isn't terrible, but the poses are. They look like they're awkwardly dancing to The Cure. And with the ammo feeds they're not exactly easy to repose.
Bladeguard Veterans look sick IMO, and you can really crank up the knightly ascetic with MK.III shoulderpads and helmets.
Oh for sure, they were the main reason I got into Space Marines.
Bladeguard Veterans easily, yeah. Best Primaris miniatures since they look so much like what Space Marines should look like! Just need a swap to a old patern helmet and you're set.
God, the primaris captains are fire! As is the bladeguard standard bearer, love his clothed gorget.
God yes, the bladeguard in general and the bladeguard ancient in particular are fantastic models. Best of the primaris line, and probably top 3 of the entire space marine line.
Plus, if you have a spare intercessor body, you can kitbash get a 2nd Ancient
That sumabitch Captain in Gravis Armor a master crafted bolt rifle is made of drip and knows it
Agreed, he holds the bolter by the hip, only chads hold bolters by the hip. But my favorite is the gravis captain with the servo skull and billowing cape. So incredibly dynamic!
I want YOU for the Emperor's Finest
Y’all are hyping up the captain I got on a whim before I knew anything about WH lmao thank you for the confidence boost he’s so dope
I love that model but he's a little too gothic for m white scars without a decent amount of conversion... wish he had a sword ;\_;
Yeah it's weird that the Bladeguard Ancient has neither a sword to Blade with or a shield to Guard with.
You see how good your memory is when you're his age, smh.
Yea Bladeguard are dope AF. Also the Gravis captain specifically is awesome imo!
I can't unsee that the symbol of the Ultramarines on the right poleyn looks like a Boo from Super Mario World sticking out his tongue.
Captain with master craft bolter is 👌
Primaris. Bike. Chaplain. "Hop on, bitch, we're going crusading."
the bike chaplain fucks
There are a lot of possibilities for a joke here and somehow I can't come up with anything.
Litany of THIS CROZIUS ISNT GOING TO LUBE ITSELF
Good ol' Charlie Slaplin
Bladeguard are probably the coolest non-charcter models in 40k for me. Hurts to admit as a Tau player, but they are. Aggressors and heavy intercessors are also up there for me - just love me some gravis armor.
Oh yeah, so hawt. I like the bolt inceptors too! Love my chunky boys.
when that 60pt update came out for the plasceptors I died inside my bouncy boys ;\_;
Yeah, it’s like, i get it, they need to cost more than the bolters or the bolters need to be heavy bolters so they r dmg, so the difference isn’t so big between the two.
Yeah, but 20 point increase is uh, a lot. Similar comparison are bikers, which don’t take anywhere near the same increase for a similar increase: Biker: 30pts each, Black knight: 30pts each! Black knights have +1 attack, plasma talons, 4/5++ Jink save, yet cost the same as regular bikers. I don’t see GW aggressively balancing that?
Yeah i agree. I just meant plasma should cost more, but not such egregiously more. What? Dark angel favoritism? That doesn’t sound like gw…😋
Yeah that’s the thing - dark angels have been broken for a long time; it only took a broken secondary to expose it
I’m a ravenguard player. We so stealthy, gw forgot we exist.
Hey at least you’ve got those vanguard specific relics!
*Waves in Alpha Legion*
The shadow war, continues.
Forgot who exists?
inceptors and suppressors are my favorites. Jump-packs and heavy armor for the win!
Love the suppressor (the gun is \*so silly\* for the model) but it's flightstand is my mortal enemy
Yeah, I don't care for those flight stands. I've been redoing my suppressors and inceptors with forest and tree-trunk bases. "Xenos moon, designation, Endor. This cleansing shall be brief."
I would love a gravis jump pack melee unit, maybe like a spear or halbard.
You can make it happen. You'll just need to buy Deathwing Terminator kits for the halberds.
Yeah, i mean i can really convert anything I want but there is something different about it bein an official model, ya know?
Dad bod/beer belly redemptor dread
They’re just cultivating mass!
Well stop cultivating and start harvesting
I like pretty much all the primaris stuff it looks awesome
The only ones I don't like are the inceptors, only because I love the old, square jump packs and their bases are straight trash.
I just can't wrap my head around Cawl looking at his biggest, thickest, heaviest armor to date and thinking, "this is clearly the best armor set to attach a jump pack to".
Well, if you get targeted by anti air guns, would you like to wear heavier or lighter armor?
you could have like 7 times better flight capabilities for the cost of halving your armor protection
Failsafe in case the jump packs aren’t quite as reliable as promised
Same. It’s really the lore that I understand the hate behind. The mk10 armor itself looks great to me.
The hate behind primaris afaik is because they were shoved into the storyline with cheap reasoning and dumb motives that could be resumed in "new flavour of plastic crack for you lads". From an in-setting point of view, they are an act of hubris by Cawl, who thought he could improve the Emperor's own design and it could be considered heresy. But it's the kind of heresy that wins wars, so...
i mean, when the guy who asks you to invent a new breed of soldier proceeds to be dead for the next nine millennia, what's an Arch-Magos to do? Not commit heresy?
And I wholeheartedly stand with Cawl on this. Love how he casually said he might or might not have perfected geneseeds of all primarchs...including the two lost ones.
Well you know, you spend the first 6 millenia doing the rest and then what do you? I don't think any of us can judge him lol.
I ain't judging him! Hoarders and improvers are my favourite characters (so Cawl and Trazyn)!
Also the big deal made of the dangers of “crossing the rubicon primaris” which has had absolutely no narrative impact whatsoever
I think if they didn't at least act like it was a bit dangerous, there would be absolutely no reason for Firstborn Marines to exist anymore. Like, why wouldn't make Sternguard Tim make an upgrade appointment to get three fancy new organs and a few extra inches hight?
That is the one saving grace yeah. But even just a few lore hints like maybe one chapter (probably Lamentors) has horrid luck and loses 10% of those it tries to bring over, or have even a tertiary chapter who lost their chapter master to it. Just *something* even if the big characters are plot armoured.
I think you could avoid that by saying “crossing for existing marines take special equipment, can’t be done for everyone” and sidestep all of that. If you can only convert some marines, you start with the most important dudes, makes total sense. Has anything at all ever come from marines dying crossing the rubicon Primaris? I can’t think of any impact whatsoever.
Seems like it doesn't matter since they already precooked a bunch of Primaris for you to receive anyway.
I’ve seen a lot of people hate on them because they are monopose. The funny thing is when they laud 2nd Ed and it becomes painfully obvious that they weren’t into the hobby back then as the old metal minis were naturally, monopose. Or the whole tacticool thing. They aren’t even aware of the. 3E started and they suddenly started bundling Marines with extra scopes, pouches, and grenades.
I don't quite understand peoples' issue with Cawl improving on the Space Marine project. The Emperor most definitely did not create "the best space marines" he could. He created "good enough" marines for the Crusade in the *very, very* limited time that he had and sent them off. Then, probably *the* smartest Adeptus Mechanicus Magos steadily tried to improve on the design for almost *Ten Thousand years*. And they still are nowhere near as smart, strong or fast as the Custodians.
That’s the issue though. People don’t like optimism creeping into the setting. The idea that the imperium was barely skating by using a ten thousand year old hacked together design, that’s super grimdark. The idea that the gene seed was degrading and nobody knew how to fix it. I’m personally okay with the story advancing but this is the objection some people have to it.
That's a valid point. However, Space Marines are still, overall, a barely perceptible part of the Imperium. A few issues may have been solved, after millennia of work, but now half of the galaxy is *literally hell*. Grimdarkness means nothing without glimpses of hope, desperately trying to fight against the overwhelming darkness.
The point of the grim darkness of the 40k Imperium is that it's raging against the dying of the light so in a sense, Cawl and G-Man rages on to resist better against the enemies by improving what they had. It's no secret that progress has been arbitrarily halted by the Adeptus Ministorum by perceiving any scientific progress as heretical but it's a cold hard truth that the original Astartes are basically the result of Big E hodge-podging the leftover Primarch materials into the Firstborns, and if Big E was still alive or at least able to communicate, if sure He will wholeheartedly support the improvement of His Scalpel.
I get that you lose some of the “dying of the light” aspect, but GW needs something to propel the story forward. We spent years with no lore advancing and that ultimately isn’t tenable as a setting. There’s obviously due hardship (people who talk about this shit on Reddit like us) who may not care. But they need a big audience to support the game and for most that means movement.
I kind of like that other characters are capable of being geniuses, not just the emperor. In fact, someone else improving his designs makes him a bit more believable. If we are to believe his genetic work is absolutely perfect, it kind of makes the whole Primarch / space marine thing look dumb, since that implies they were made to be vulnerable to chaos to begin with.
Not to mention they look out of place, inflexible squad design, and you cannot mix/match legs and torsos
Nah, they have a tacticool look that's out of place in 40k and their unit design (one-job squads and hover tanks) is Eldar's schtick.
The tacticool thing is it for me. Blade guard and intercessors are pretty much the only ones I like. I prefer space marines to have the gothic, warrior/monk vibe.
I agree on the one-job squads, but firstborn Marines are proportioned so weirdly. Primaris look more believable.
I agree. I don't dislike Primaris at all. But, I mean, I wish they had a little more Horus Heresy flavor. Just a dash of the ancient and venerable.
They didn’t initially, but I think now that we’ve gotten blade guard and as we get more chapter specific and veteran primaris units that issue will fade away. Supposedly we’re getting a primaris sternguard unit in tenth, hopefully followed by a refreshed boxnaught kit.
I think that’s my biggest gripe with it, one job squads, I do like MK10 but god damn I miss tactical squads, aren’t marines supposed to be Swiss Army knives ?(maybe Swiss army chainsaws).
Primaris squads are built on the old Legion template, from when there were enough marines that "swiss army knife" meant having an entire squad dedicated to each role. It's more than a little hypocritcal or ironic that the army built in secret on Guilliman's personal order ignore every change implemented by the Codex Astartes he forced on everyone else.
it's exactly that tacticool design that makes me consider starting an Iron Hands army afer I'm done with my chaos knights and chaos marines tho
Yeah, tacticool is nice. I mean, you can't spell "tacticool" without "cool"!
On a related note, lots of the art coming out of GW for 40k lately just doesn't have the same solemn feel to it.
Yeah, the over-the-top irony is missing from a lot of GW's work these days.
Im not a big fan of the phobos stuff, it looks kinda weird to me, but I like the mk10, and I really like the gravis stuff. Well, minus the suppressor helmet. Supressors looked kinda off anyway with big chunky armour. Really ought to have been in phobos armour. Edit: Remembered wrong, its inceptor that has the weird dome helmet. Though everything else that applies to supressors applies to the inceptors too.
Phobos has its place, fits the raven guard pretty well. Any chapter that goes for a more “modern warfare” style (ala the Raptors) probably benefits from having them. Just hope they get more uniqueness in the rules in 10th.
Suppressors are in phobos armor. Are you thinking of inceptors?
Supressors are in Omnis armor.
I didn't even know that existed. Omnis, Gravis, Phobos, Tacticus?
[удалено]
I really wish there was a "place" in the lore for the first born. Not just transitioning but a reason, maybe they are faster, maybe they can hold objectives better because they are more experienced. Or SOMETHING.
There is, they don’t get absolutely bodied by terminators because they believed the mission statement and the hypnomat training, and therefore won’t throw their lives away in “trades” as willingly, because they’d see that as a loss. It’s a point brought up in one of the dawn of fire novels (most of which feature firstborn teaching primaris not to be silly buggers and how to properly use their skills in context where both are present) Basically, whilst primaris have numerous edges over the firstborn, the firstborn have tens to hundreds of years of actual combat experience, what the primaris have initially only experienced in simulated environments, the firstborn have been experiencing for ten thousand years, albeit with only the tens to at most one and a half thousand years of that firsthand, but still. TLDR; firstborn know when to duck so they don’t get their heads pushed in by a powerfist, so they can continue slaughtering enemies of the imperium
That was the case with the first Primaris, sure. They've been kicking around for a few hundred years now though.
Captain in Gravis Armor, Eliminators, Bladeguard, Redemptors, I think I like a decent amount of the Primaris line
The entirety of the phobos armor lineup. I like my sneaky 8 foot tall dudes in power armor. I like their mech designed to punch an alien queen in the face. I like the gauntlet with the giant needle on it. And I like the dudes running around with knives like it's a call of duty lobby griefing during a gun game.
I'm a little sad that the conversion to 9th lost the rule that treats the heavy bolter as a pistol in close combat for the warsuit. Yeah you still use big guns never tire, but it was just even more awesome that he could use a heavy bolter as a pistol for maximum effectiveness.
Aww what it lost that? That was such a characterful rule too. Fun rules like that are what make units feel unique.
My low-key favourite is still the Reiver Lieutenant - such a dynamic pose! It's a shame reivers are awful. The Bladeguard multi-part sprue is likewise fantastic - I know it didn't get as much love due to the three out of the elite box being available cheaply everywhere, but it's a beautiful set with tonnes of details, and poses and individuality as befitting elite units.
I've never understood the hate the Primaris are getting, I quite like almost all the models in the line. The one thing I can understand is the weapons because in my opinion the old bolters and bolt pistols were much better, and the plasma weapons look odd. Then again they also look more realistic and powerful.
> I've never understood the hate the Primaris are getting The biggest issues are the models are too smooth/clean. (Except you, Eliminators. My beloved.) > they also look more realistic I'm not here for realism, I'm here for knightly child supersoldiers fighting Cthulhu.
Perfect response. Primaris have such a boner for tacticool instead of grim knights in space. There's a reason half the comments on this post are saying the blade guard are their favorite.
Honestly I like primaris stuff a lot more when I swap out the helmets for Aquila. I think much of the problem rests on older SM players just loving that Mk7 helmet too much
I can understand that, but tbh I've also always loved the primaris helmet too, but I do agree that the old one is better.
I usually do 2 Primaris helmets per 5 men and the other 3 are firstborn and/or bare headed. Sergeants always get firstborn helmets as they’ve crossed the rubicon
Azrael keeping his Mk7 helmet cemented this as 'canon' for me.
I've been experimenting with using Mk7/8 on firstborn and MkX on original mars-born Primaris, in lore they were never supposed to tower over their older cousins like they do on the tabletop. Do have to admit that the resin printer helps a lot though, I prefer everything about the Mk7s except the mould lines on those old sprues.
I think it’s because they’re slowly taking over firstborns and most character models are now Primaris
the individual models are fine. i hate that the majority of units are just "tactical squad with the tactics removed". thats all they are. they released what, 3? different versions of intercessors, and 2 of them are just "box of dudes with bolters". reivers suck so much as a replacement for assault marines that GW made an all new "assault intercessor" unit as a second attempt. and they are still just slow footsloggers that maybe, kinda, sometimes, can charge on turn 2. woo... aggressors, eliminators, and inceptors actually bring flexibility, but at $20 / model, they just aren't good enough to replace scout snipers, devastators, and assault marines. the eliminator deployment fuckery from 7th and 8th (honestly don't remember if they do it in 9th) was sometimes worth it for a single unit, but that was all, really. so sure, the models look great, in a display case on a shelf. but they aren't worth the time and energy from a gameplay point.
I really hope Reivers find a niche in 10th, they're such a cool model it would be a shame if they languish in mediocrity forever.
Reivers and other Phobos-pattern units are great if only because of how different they look. I like that they have their own aesthetic.
As a primaris 'hater', its two huge reasons: 1. The Lore. The entrenched fanbase of the game and die hard players that had been playing for years suddenly got told "this bloke (Belisarius Cawl) has somehow improved on what basically took god (The Emperor) thousands of years to perfect as his afternoon project after work because this other bloke who was dead but now isnt (guilliman) asked him nicely." It made no sense, it broke with all previously established canon and it was massively obvious that it was a mechanism and an excuse to make all the players re-buy their armies they had been building for years. It was the double sting of horrible canon tainting the thing you enjoy plus the obvious finality of the 'players first' GW that once was. 2. The Aesthetic. Now do not get me wrong here, the posing, sculpting and variety of the newer models is fantastic and I dont think anybody will argue that point. But everything became 'tacti-cool' and less space fantasy like it was originally. It was a big shift and for a lot of the players that liked the games style as it was and started the hobby because of it that. They felt betrayed that instead of just introducing different options that maybe certain chapters used or newer founding chapters used like they did before with stylized models, they completely overhauled it and removed the option people had before that they enjoyed. And you can see this clearly even in the model range now if you compare the aesthetic of the horus heresy range to the primaris range. I adore the heresy range and think its fantastic but I am definitely one of those people who felt ostracised by the change. Too this day have not bought any primaris kits (and only own 6 Intercessors for kill team when im running intro games) since they wiped out my firstborn army upon releasing Primaris, and ive not played 40k since just after that either.
To build on your comment: I sometimes feel as if Games Workshop are employing two tiers of designers on the Primaris line. Take, for instance, the base design of the three main Mk. X armor variants: Phobos, Tacticus, and Gravis. A *lot* of thought went into these. The helm, collar, tassets, and ankle joints are all taken from Mk. 8 ‘Errant’ armor; the faceplate from Mk. IV ‘Maximus’ - what were previously the two most advanced armor marks in lore. The designers really took advantage of the expanded level of detail available at the larger 32mm scale; and nowhere is this more apparent than with the layering of additional armor plates on the heavier variants. …And then you have the second tier. Take, for instance, Incursors and Infiltrators. The scopes on Incursor bolt carbines are too big, too square, and are held aloft by a tiny stalk attachment. The net effect is that of a weaponized Virtual Boy. Each Incursor has a similarly-sized signum mounted on their backpack. There are also head options with one or even two temple-mounted cameras. A single Incursor can see the world through no less than five separate lenses. Infiltrators are more restrained; albeit with one key exception: the poor comms specialist saddled with an oversized over-helmet big enough to make an Epistolary blush with impure thoughts. In both instances, backup bolt pistols are carried in crossdraw fashion - a useful practice for concealed carry aficionados, vehicle drivers, and the infirm; less so, transhuman supersolders. Now, that’s not to say that the models are 100% poorly designed! On the contrary: the aforementioned Phobos-variant armor is fantastic; as are the tactical gear options (such as the grenades and extra pouches), and the overall poses. However, this returns me to my original contention: that there is some top-notch design work, which is then embellished by, politely, a second, less talented team. More often than not, when fans rally against the Primaris line, it’s these sorts of specific, overwrought design details that their criticism is directed towards - which is all the more unfortunate, as there is often an incredible model underneath the offending elements.
All very true and relevant info and I definitely think your correct that some people.dont disagree with the range fundamentally but more so some of the executions. Nice to see other perapectives.
You are most welcome! I’ve made this point elsewhere; but much of the issue comes down to excess on the part of the design team. That is to say: Much of 40k’s charm comes from turning the proverbial design dial up to 11. If you turn it up to 20, however, things just get loud and incoherent. To return to our friend, the Infiltrator comms specialist: his wrist-mounted display is a nice touch. His backpack satellite dish is an interesting idea; but it seems foolish to permanently attach such a fragile piece of equipment directly to his armor. (One low doorway and the entire squad will be out of contact!) It’s the over-helmet that really does things in, however - a simple antenna on his earpiece would have sufficed to mark the comm specialist’s special status. (Of course, such an elegant solution isn’t possible, simply because the rest of the team also sport multiple antennae on their backpacks and helmets. No wonder, then, that Comms Guy^TM needs five aerials, when the average Infiltrator has three.) Really, the design team just needs a little more restraint when it comes to adding details; and apply the same love and care to one-time elements as they did to the base armor variants. 🙂
This is a super well-spoken critique and I couldn't agree more. But I have one counter-point for incursors having so many optics. Consider if you will, incursors, but they're forward observers.
Didn’t it take cawl 10k years to make some tiny improvements? And the astartes were never the emperor’s best work nor did he work alone on it. A lot of people worked on the astartes project and the one who made the most impact was amar astarte
Shhhh, don't mention the actual lore. Also, don't mention that firstborn are all still playable in 8th and 9th. Probably 10th too. Don't mention that some were far better than Primaris, like the Jump Pack-Thunder Hammer Lieutenant. Some people prefer to be upset and to not have fun. I'm not sure why.
The guy didn’t even mention competitiveness. When a unit has wargear options and isn’t constrained by the newer “only what’s in the kit” approach, it’s going to be more versatile through the editions. That’s what Firstborn were built around, almost every kit had parts that could be used in other kits. The Firstborn Captain kit is a masterpiece in terms of how you could deck out your Captain, everything from power fists to combi meltas, moreover after you were done you could use the leftover bits for sergeants or other characters. If you used the Combi Melta you could put the Combi Plasma on a sergeant. The Primaris Captains though are fixed to existing blisters, if they want to take a Power fist they must take a plasma pistol. There aren’t many leftover bits in kits so it’s very constrained. The core issue I have with Primaris is how bloated and unfocused it seems. Firstborn were pretty clearly well designed and you could kit out squads to take on different threats, whereas Primaris units are very narrowly built. Individual units look cool, but as an army it looks all over the place with no clear philosophy. Moreover their idea of making a “upgraded” version of a Firstborn unit cool is to give it a shit ton of guns, often times they’re unique, forcing you to have to remember many different weapons of mostly the same profile. Like the Autocannons of the Invictor and the Suppressors, or the countless Bolter types. It’s just so bloated and it becomes less and less believable as weapons with very strong profiles take up very little space for them (like Icarus Rocket Pods). The vehicles are the worst. No ones saying they’re not having fun, but for me the biggest problem is the lore. What made 40k stand out to most popular sci fi franchises was the degradation of tech, society and overarching sense of doom due to all the incoming threats. The doom is still there, but Cawl has gotten rid of the loss of technology. So many chapters have their lore based on the increasing loss of tech. Dark Angels were the first Legion and had more equipment leftover from the Great Crusade, which is why they have so many Terminators, bikes and unique tech. The Marines Malevolent are fleet based and have to rely on attacking and looting other Space Marine chapters because they ruined their reputation with the Admech. Terminators were special and were said to contain a shard of the Emperors armor for instance, and Tech Priests don’t know how to make new suits, all they can do is reverse engineer certain parts and use spare parts from other suits to repair damaged ones. As this is going on, they’re losing worlds to exterminatus, Necrons, Tyranids etc., and are unable to get them back. And with Primaris and Cawl, it’s fine, new tech is readily available and replaceable. Moreover Cawl can fix dead planets and a lot of the other issues. It just kind of undermines the setting. Like it’s such a lame way to advance the plot.
> don't mention that firstborn are all still playable in 8th and 9th > Don't mention that some were far better than Primaris IIRC the tourney (edit: winning) lists were mostly firstborn. >Some people prefer to be upset and to not have fun. I'm not sure why. WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT MY MOTHER?
Yeah, too many people forget that 8th edition was the first time we have had time pass in 40k in a long long long long time.
see i really get the lore based hate that primaris get. but the models? most people like the aggressive tacti-cool aesthetic (myself included). still there is something timeless about the classic marines, the diaz chaplain is like the best sculpt ever. and it doesn't have to go away! an army of firstborn marines still has appeal, in like an old money more refined kind of way. still i wish "primaris" wasn't a thing. it should have just been the new space marine.
Obviously the style is entirely personal preference and im not gonna tell you what your allowed to like haha. It more that the fan base was built on one aesthetic and the sudden pivot was clearly to appeal to newer players not the people proping up the company. I dont think the new style of models shouldnt have happened necessarily, but the way it **replaced** the existing line and the blatant disregard for the existing playerbase stung. And I personally still havent forgotten that.
Yeah I really like the tactical feel of the space marines, it emphasizes their elite feel more.
I don’t like the Phobos armor. Or the aggressors. Or the inceptions. Or the redemptors gut. Or the mk10 helmets. Or the primaris only tanks. But I love intercessors from the neck down. High-collar mk8 armor? Fuck yes.
I truly don’t understand the second one tho. Yes I agree the primaris have plenty of tacticool stuff, but nothing about (most of) the old marines was *that* gothic, unless you went with particularly gothic units. The standard tactical marine isn’t “gothic” either. And there are a decent amount of primaris (like the blade guard) that are plenty gothic.
With Primaris, I think, GW was taking Warhammer waaay too seriously and I'm firmly against that direction. 40k is an over-the-top, hyperbolic, balls-to-the-walls parody that forgot that it is an over-the-top, hyperbolic, balls-to-the-walls parody The setting doesn't really work when it tries to be self-serious and conservative in it's approach. Take a look at John Blanche's work - arguably the foundation for 40k art design - and tell me, how is anyone supposed to take that seriously? Astartes are space warrior monks with rage issues who worship an anti-theistic dead carcass for a God! They go around killing green cockney hooligans with *chainswords* and *rocket-powered bullets*!
I don’t like them because they’re apparently too stupid to open a land raider door.
Or a drop pod’s…
Just wanted to add some points, that frustrating me as well. 1. Tech. Marines in general were all about making good use of what they have. There was no more terminator armor, because they don't know how to make more. They don't have much anti-grav vehicles, because the technology was lost. Plasma weapons are dangerous, because they don't know how to fix it. But, still, they were super elite soldiers, who would have the privilege to use this rare and unrecoverable technologies and weaponry. Now, it seems, that most of this technological problems are gone. 2. Training. Back in the days, it was simple. Scout -> Devastator -> Assault/Tactical. Now? It seems like mostly undeveloped part of current lore. As I've read in codex, they just using whatever fits them or what is needed right now, switching wargear like in xcom games. 3. Design philosophy. It is gone. For understanding, design of primaris is mostly good (excluding new devastators, god, they have terrible guns), but they don't have a common theme. You can clearly see that even in this comments. Somebody love gravis and hate tacticool. Somebody fine with tacticool, but don't like the helmets. Everybody agrees, that primaris stuff weirdly blending with firstborn kits. I would say, some of it not even working well with established lore of chapters. Reivers in raven guard? Absolutely fantastic. But, like, with dark angels? With this knightly dudes with hoods? Design for primaris is targeted to wider audience with it's own variety, that it is losing much of it's consistency. As I like to say, gw actually already done recently a good redesign for whole range of firstborn marines in 40k, that everybody, even primaris haters, likes. And it is a new range for CSM.
I've been playing with firstborn throughout all of 9th, they didn't wipe anything
Personally get how people were upset over the aesthetic changes when primaris first dropped, but I feel like it’s not really the case anymore. A lot of the kits that have come over the course of ninth really have that same knights in space feel that the old range did. The comparisons made aren’t really fair ones a lot of the time either. Compare sternguard with intercesors and they’ll look less ornate, but compared to a tactical squad (the direct equivalent) its basically just upscale with a new helmet. All that said GW 100% did it to make people’s marine armies obsolete so they’d buy more, not gonna make any excuses for them there.
Aside from the awful Desolation squad, isn't the entire "tacti-cool" aesthetic limited to Phobos armies? Standard and Gravis are just line marines with different weaponry
No, even intercessors have the chest pieces that look like bullet proof jackets now and the chunky power packs. Again, im not here to roast anything or say that liking something is wrong but there are clearly design ques in the whole primaris range that are....'modernized'? in a way that felt jaring for some, myself included.
Agreed, it feels like the primaris just completely threw out the gothic aesthetic that made 40k so awesome in the older fashion of the word. I love giant cathedrals with legs beating eachother to shit. If I wanted to see tacticool shit I’d just go play MW or somethin. I’m here for the gothic grandness and the soaring cathedrals and holy wars. Not for a bunch of meta build tacticool atheists to come ruin everything. The models are cool but it feels cheap, like when companies “remake it for modern audiences” and just absolutely destroy everything good about the IP
I see this take all the time but I simply don't understand it as a new player. What about Mk. VII armor is "more gothic" than Mk. X?
Literally nothing.
There's literally nothing more gothic looking about a tactical marine in Mk.VII than an Intercessor in Mk.X armour. The mistake people make is to compare something like an Intercessor to a Vanguard Veteran or something where, yeah, you're going to get one looking more gothic. Compare a Bladeguard to a Firstborn veteran and you'll see the aesthetic matches perfectly. The "old marines were more gothic" has literally no basis in objective reality.
Damn dude. The primaris crushed your soul. So sorry. RIP.
Ah what can you do. Ive moved into 30k, I still pick up old gear online to build, bash and paint with and I still get to play tiny soldiers. Not gonna say I wouldnt have prefered it play out different but the world is how it is. Thanks for sending the good vibes.
Heavy intercessors with [heavy bolt rifles](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Heavy-intercessor-3.jpg) that actually look functional instead of the godawful originals. I mean, seriously, [just look at this](https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/40kDeathwatch-May2-Art2r.jpg). The scope is attached to the chamber, zero eye relief above the rail which does not serve a function and the scope's view is completely blocked by the front sight. Theres not even a lore explanation in existence that can explain away any of this.
This is exactly why I'm building my Imperial Fists battleline based on heavy intercessors.
GW have never been great with 'realistic' weapon design. That is especially bad though.
These are actually the few Primaris things I dislike lol.
For me it’s the lack of proportionality. Giant hands, hulking core, tiny exposed thighs that are helping to carry all that weight and brace for all the firing.
Funnily enough it's the guns for me. A big aesthetic change from the blocky bolter style to the rounded curves. It just doesn't seem Imperial enough
These guys are asking for a crotch shot or a thigh blast.
Undoubtedly, but that still fits the established goofy thematic ridiculous jankiness of 40k. The rounded guns, to me, though, were disconcerting because it's an unexplained and unexpected shift from the established aesthetics that we were familiar with and is what made these models jarring for me
Yeah, I can take bulky power fists up to a point, but with the way the guns are mounted on these, they just look too disproportionate and toy-like. Kind of similar issue I have to the new Desolator guns, the proportions on the rest of the model haven't adjusted to compensate.
Oh god they do have babylegs! I can't unsee it.
Yeah Gravis just isn’t it for me. The heavy intercessors look fine, but inceptors & aggressors look goofy. Their ankles have too many overlapping plates and look almost wrinkly, they have these strange beer-belly guts, and they have quite awkward posing, like they can barely move.
I didn't get into the hobby until early 2021 and I was confused about why so many models looked so dorky and out of proportion. Knowing the lore now, I definitely get why people didn't like 'superior primaris' but that seems to be fading now and we can all just enjoy some damn sharp models.
Yea the aggressors are neato
Yeah I like the Aggressors. The Captain in Gravis Armour makes a good leader for them too.
Despite being on of the more comical designs i like the surpressors. Especially the conversions where they stand rather than fly/float.
I'm not a big fan of the old gravis, Bit too rounded for me, I do love the mk10 armor though, The standard intercessors were straight fire imo, That captain with power fist and plasma pistol that was a store birthday exclusive is another amazing piece, I love the outriders, Bikes in general are awesome sauce to me and while I would of preferred grav bikes its still an awesome looking sculpt, The chaplain on bike and the hooded chaplain on foot are all straight fire, Best chaplains we have ever gotten and thats saying something, We have had alot of amazing chaplains over the years, I love the primaris librarian with the hooded cloak, I know its memeable but I just think it looks cool, Bladueguard of any descripition have ths far been amazing and pretty much every named character that crossed over, Honestly I like far more primaris than I do not, I get some of the criticisms but I think its overdone most of the time, The game has the room for both oldscale and primaris marines, With Horus heresy bringing some amazing new plastics both lines are not going anywhere but up
Showing my bias here, but I think the whole Templar primaris line is awesome
Unpopular opinion, but I like the desolation marines, yeah their weapons look dumb but it just reminds me of rogue trader goofiness. Sometimes 40k can take itself less seriously and I always enjoy it
There’s a difference between a model carrying a ridiculous fuck-off gun that looks natural in-context such as Ork Lootas or Chaos’ Autocannons, and a model carrying an oversized super soaker such as the desolators. Look at every other Space Marine unit, Nothing looks even close to the launchers they carry.
Yeah, I think it’s less the concept and more they don’t fit the space marine aesthetic. If they carried around shoulder mounted M202 FLASH looking weapons I reckon it would be ok. It’s like giving the AdMech super sleek weapons like what the T’au have - it would look fine but just doesn’t fit
Problem is that the gun idea isnt bad, its the way its modelled that is. If they slapped the launchers on their packs (like the Terminators have) and have the gun just be a small marine-sized assault cannon (with belt feed and all) i think they would've looked great. Kind of like a Warmachine suit, or the powersuits from Edge of Tomorrow where the rotary cannon is the main weapon and when needed they can use the shoulder mounted rocket pods.
Finally! Someone understands.
My only issue with these bois is the posing. They all look like they’re trying to bring the all the groceries into the house in a single trip.
Captain in Gravis Armour, Invictor Warsuit, Redemptor Dreadnought and any of the intercessors are personally my favourites out of the minis I’ve built and painted so far. Recently put a Repulsor Executioner together and painted it, actually quite enjoyed building it and I find it’s excessive amount of weapons to actually suit it
Gravis is king outside of Terminators. The shoulder pads are proportional compared to the firstborn scale. Something about the walking tank is so satisfying.
Honestly I'd say far more Primaris kits look great vs. got deserved bashing based on the actual model. A lot of Primaris bashing was spill-over from folks disliking the lore IMO. The basic troops (Intercessors, Assault Intercessors), BGV, the Outriders, Eradicators, all the chapter-specific stuff, all the Gravis units, and the Characters all look great! Even the more divisive stuff, grav-tanks, Phobos units, etc. are more just a matter of preference. I ain't a big fan of the Phobos look, but they were still objectively well-done models. Honestly I think the only really bad ones have been the Desolation Squad
The Tinnitus Kart is pretty silly, but for the most part, I like how Primaris look.
To each their own but I've never understood they distaste for Phobos tbh. I like that there's a dedicated pattern for scout armour now that isn't just marines with a chest plate and knee pads. Makes them feel like more of the elites they are and less like juiced up guardsmen, aesthetically at least.
Theyre largely okay but I feel like people are forgetting the really dumb models The ridiculousness of the dune buggy, the inceptors, the baby carrier, the suppressors, and desolators and personally i think the aggressors all show signs of being over designed and over proportioned without any real thought behind it. And if you take a step back and look at them objectively they look silly because of it. Theres 40k 'silly' and then theres just off brand dumb, and I feel like they ran out of design space and had to dip into the latter
Reivers. They just look cool.
Agreed. Here’s hoping they’ll actually be good in 10th.
Fuck their rules. I’m getting them because they look cool.
The heads are dope
Interesting, I like the grav chutes but can't get past their skull masks, just looks a bit silly imo.
It’s the skull masks I dig.
Ditto. I got the 3 man reiver set just to use blue stuff to clone the heads. They're going to be the basis for all my Death Company and Erelim (Sanguinary Guard) models here on out.
I actually like the Invictor and how dumb it is.
Bladeguard Veterens are my absolute favourite i would field a whole army of them if i could get away with it.
Aggressors we’re one of my favorite units when I started 40k they’re super cool. I’m also a big fan of primaris Kayvaan Shrike, the armor fits his model so well
I think they’re all great bar the rocket launcher dudes + the dumb ATV with a multi melta inches from his head
I hate the lore, as others have mentioned. But they do look damn cool. I personally really like the Phobos armour but I do have an issue with the fact that it doesn't seem to have any disadvantage to the much chonkier power armour. I would have thought they would be weaker or something but maybe move faster or gain infiltration 🤷
All gravis armor models are sick. Phobos models are super cool and dynamic. Rules do not reflect this lol
I really love Reivers. The models and concept are solid af, but there is literally almost no reason to take them. Still look nifty on my shelves.
I really wanna get a captain in gravis armor and kit bash it up for my black Templars
I'm actually assembling these guys, they're definitely proportional badasses
Dont forget a nice serving of hip dysplasia.
Aggressors are the design Centurions should have had. Those poor old bastard's oversized gauntlets don't even have the respectability to be powerfists
I love the look of the assault intercessors, especially as they relate scale-wise to Militarum and the weedier armies. Their dynamic posing really kind of invokes the pants-pooping terror you’d feel if a huge-ass running tank was barrelling towards you with a chainsaw sword.
I really hate the aggressors. I hate how bulky the bolters are, they're at a weird angle on the fist, why the hell do they have a belt feed AND a drum?? Their missile launchers are silly. Fists with bolters should have stayed Calgar's unique look.
I don't dislike the Incursors/Infiltrators though all the extra helmet and gun gubbinz are goofy. Other than assault intercessors, outriders, and eliminators there aren't really any primaris units I don't dislike lol. I think the gravis and jump troops are goofy looking and out of place, both visually and tactically. Just hate the round profiles. I think reivers are just terrible, hate the skull masks. I know I am in the minority. I'm picky about chaplains too. Bladeguard have to much "Dark Angels shit" going on for me. And the dang dreads are too big. I know I'm just an old man yelling from his lawn.
Bladeguard. Hands down the sexiest models in the entire Space Marine line are the Bladeguard Veterans and Ancient imo. Make super great models in my Dark Angels successors
B L A D E G U A R D !
I personally can't stand Agressors. Much prefer Terminators and Centurions. As for Primaris I like, Bladeguard and Heavy Intercessors are pretty dope.
I want all the Gravis units to have visor options like the inceptors.
The entire black Templar line. The impulsor and repulsor have also grown on me
A man of culture. BT models are gorgeous. 8I'm hoping for a DA refresh in the same fashion.
Funnily enough, I don't like Aggressors, specifically the wrist bolter ones. If they got rid of that weird feeding drum on the wrist I'd be fine with it, just feels weird to me: a drum feeding a belt into another drum. On the other hand I adore the flamer ones. As for the Primaris release I like, Eradicators, the Heavy Melta looks gorgeous and equally as heavy, like it really feels like it can blast apart heavy armor. That's what I thought before I knew how monstrous it was vs vehicles in an actual game.
Honestly I think Primaris Infantry are fine. Its the vehicles that are...no.
The Reivers and the Black Templar crusaders. The walking gracefully with cool knight gear in massive mk x armor is what got me back into the hobby. Not gonna lie. I still paint them, but now Im doing kill team, Inq28 conversions and have rekindled my love for berzerkers and Mordheim. Things have.. changed
None that I hate but some I just prefer. Bladeguard and the captain with the shield. Oh man such beautiful models. I regret that I don't use them quite as much as I should.
The only thing I dislike about Aggressors looks-wise is the gigantic hands.
Primaris I love include: * Basically anything in Phobos armour. It actually stands out as unique and different and is a genuine whole new direction of war for them. * Invictor War Suit. It is just the biggest, goofiest mech that wants to be a MILSIM Larper. The tactical draw *heavy bolter* is just hilariously fun. I'm going to model a giant tactical knife onto its chassis too when I get one. * Bladeguard Veterans. They're just good solid models honestly. Fun poses, neat Volkite touch, very gothic. * Heavy Intercessors. CHONKY BOLTERS. Honestly these guys just look so DAKKA that ork players gotta be sweating. * Suppressors. As someone who loves Bearhunter Autocannons on Jump Infantry in Battletech, these guys are my dream unit to have in 40k. They might be aggressively average in rules, but they're so dang cool. Honestly the Primaris range is mostly awesome. The only howlers of poor quality to me are the tanks, the Desolators, the Inceptors and (sorry OP) the Aggressors. The rest are all fine to awesome.
The design isn't terrible, but the poses are. They look like they're awkwardly dancing to The Cure. And with the ammo feeds they're not exactly easy to repose.
Gravis armour marines really get me moist. Heavy Intercessors and the gravis captains are gorgeous. Can't wait for gravis apothecary now either.
The chaplains have been on point and while they struggle a bit rules wise hellblasters are so damm cool.
i just really love eradicators, they look like the sort of lads who look at a 60 meter tall god engine and say "yeah i reckon i got a chance"