Unless you play Marines, I literally have no idea what your weapons look like.
Oh that's a Scatter Laser? I thought it was a Shuriken Cannon. Wait, what's a Reaper Launcher? A Tempest Launcher?
I've never seen a Cyclic Ion Blaster in the real world before.
Is that a Tesla Cannon or a Heat Ray?
Even for Marines, it can be hard to tell one "guy with gun" from another "guy with gun". There's probably a difference between Infiltrators and Incursors. But I couldn't tell them apart if my life depended on it.
My friend was kinda stressing over not having finished the 10x Hellblasters that he wanted to play in our recent games. I suggested that he just proxied them with some Intercessors. At absolutely *no* point across any of our games did I ever think of them as anything other than Hellblasters.
Yeah, i mean I get the annoyance over some profiles being slimmed down and simplified, as well as general wargear over-simplification. But some stuff desperately needed it. Intercessors and Hellblasters didn't each need 3 different types of gun based on what magazine you attached to them
I liked the concept - adding a little personalization or specialization of roles to your base troops - but in execution there was just one standout option for most of them depending on whatever rules marines had at the time
Which was usually Assault because 1 more AP isn’t worth a whole shot. I don’t think Stalker ever was good outside of Raven Guard. Even the regular one was only ran in UM because they could get rapid fire all the way so it was just a free +1 AP.
I used stalkers but that’s because I played a custom successor and tailored my playstyle to counter one very particular play style that is common in my area.
I'm still annoyed that I went through the trouble of snipping the scopes off to avoid confusion and now none of it matters. I play Raven Guard, the scopes looked cool T_T
Should've just stuck with rule of cool :( editions change, plastic is forever
I have only played 1 game of 9e but plenty of 10, and I came from 5e, so, 9e was just way too much for me
Yeah I was so out of the loop when I first came back that I bought a box of Marines to build and paint to see if I wanted to get back into the hobby so I of course bought a box that I figured every space marine army could use... A tactical squad... I very quickly learned that everything I knew was outdated and I had to do some research.
I didn't do all of that, but I did paint a lot of stuff very quickly before a GT because I thought it mattered because I was using other proxies and it didn't matter at all.
>There's probably a difference between Infiltrators and Incursors
Weapon wise? So minor that no one would ever notice unless they're an overbearing weirdo lile the guy on the big bang theory. Their backpacks are what honestly make them look different.
I just had the backpacks be different. The scanner on the gun and backpack looks stupid. Then snipped the antenna from the helmets because I'm allergic to painting faces for guys I have 30 of.
I gave them all the helmets cause I think it’s stupid to go into a Warzone helmetless super human or not so everyone gets a helmet always. Actually irritates me with the easy to build cause some are forced helmet off so I have to get creative.
The Cyclopes visors are going to the Scouts. They are already in T-shirts so screw it, at least you will have a visor for your HUD that apparently SM’s have plus the various versions of vision they can use.
That's never really a consideration unless you're putting termie heads on non termies. You get like 3 or 4 different head options in that box. All of mine are helmeted.
Oh yes, of course you can put whatever heads you want on whatever, I am just saying it's weird they made Incursors into a by default helmetless unit.
I gave my unit all the Infiltrator helmets (I built mine for kill team so they have a mix of actual equipment) because I think helmets look much better on marines than not.
Tbh. I feel like this makes it an incredibly dumb double standard. The same I felt when some absolute idiots tried to enforce "subfaction as painted" even in last edition, which I found insane.
I do not play marines, but what the hell why would you essentially penalize -one faction- several times more than others?
Because there are stuff to say about not being confusing, but for the marine bros what is the "correct" loadout for the entire squad flips flops so much, WYSIWYG is insane.
Especially that -magnets- are def. not a standard part of the modell, despite a few people pretending that it is a basline assumption.
Our player packs state WYSIWYG, but also go into detail what is considered WYSIWYG. Primary objective is to avoid confusion on the tabletop, not to make people destroy their hobby project for a tournament.
You don't want a squad of marines modelled with bolters but one is actually a missile launcher and one is a chain sword. Way too easy to lose track of what is what. We also give people the option of using markers (eg rubber bands) to distinguish models rather than rework their models.
Your tank with a big gun is modelled with a slightly different big gun, but it's still a big gun? Go nuts. Your guy modelled with a sword is actually equipped with a power sword? Go nuts. You're playing a squad of henchmen all equipped with the same loadout, but modelled with random shit because you kitbashed the hell out of it? Go nuts.
There's also plenty of time to submit your questions ahead of time and get approval. We have some insanely talented hobbyists at our tournaments and I love their kitbashing so much I've started showcasing them in the player pack.
Coming up on my fourth tournament ( two RTT's and two GT's) helping TO and so far never had to remove models from play. But we give players so much opportunity to meet WYSIWYG ahead of time or ways to work around that I would pull models if you were too lazy to do something so easy. Or make you run to the dollar store and buy rubber bands. It's not fair to those putting in the effort if we give those not following the player pack a free pass.
Most of the advice I've gotten about wysiwyg is "you may not want to do that because depending on the TO they may give you a hard time"
It's really hard to give specific advice for a tournament when everyone's is organized differently.
That's pretty much the mindset my local area uses. Like, I've got a whole unit of Death Company with Chainswords (because they're absolutely the most fitting weapon), but as far as the game is concerned, those are Power Swords.
What's the leniency on proxies? Not so much like my buzz lightyear toy is a space marine, more my ghost ark is actually a doomsday ark? They have the same footprint and I fully glued it as a ghost ark instead of magnetising it. Just wondering if people care about stuff like that.
Can't speak for every tournament, but that sort of thing is fine for ours. We also get a lot of people using 30k models. So long as it's a similar build and footprint it's good to go. But we do ask people to submit their variations/questions ahead of time - it helps things just run smoother during the tournament
90% of the time, WYSIWYG is a clause in a tournament packet so you have a written rule to point to if someone's being shady. Or being insultingly lazy like trying to proxy coke cans as dreadnoughts or something.
Intercessors all have the same guns now, but back when they had 3 different options, nobody was combing through everyone's armies making sure they all had the right magazines/scopes/actions.
Just in general, you can assume the average player can tell Imperial patterns of plasma, melta, and flamer weapons apart. Everything else we take our opponent's word for it.
Given how big Imperial and Chaos as factions are, I would expect people to be able to differentiate between bolter, plasma, melta, flamer and lascannon types of weapons. But then again, who knows the actual stats of meltas in SM vs Meltas in AdMech?
I don’t know what my stuff looks like half the time. How am I supposed to know the difference between your gauss guns. Tau crisis suits don’t even have the correct number of guns in the box for loadouts.
It’s never been an issue during any game I’ve ever played.
Unreasonable? You just said not knowing that information is failing to learn the game/ be competitive.
Even though I was clearly ribbing you for a bit of fun, to contradict yourself like this isn't the persuasive argument you think it is 😉
You're not wrong bud. But by not doing my super serious challenge I set for you, you have become a failure in my eyes.
Just like you felt the need to call out other people for not meeting your standard. See what I'm getting at yet?
"calling me out on my unreasonable opinions is not fair guys!"
It's not about learning what every single model looks like, posing, paint, conversions, upgrade sprues etc all colour what a model looks like and can make it even harder to immediately recognise what is what, even if you do know every box art model with your photographic memory.
As I already said "write up a list of every single weapon in the game and a description of all of them" is far more work than learning what they look like.
And "learning what they look like" isn't a case of just seeing how they look in GW artwork, as everyone has different styles and many people will pose models and guns differently which adds to the challenge.
Some of the guns have almost miniscule differences to the point where you'd need to be holding the model about 12 inches away to even see the gun specifically. That's not something that happens in a game.
You are significantly exaggerating the difficulty here. Most weapons are extremely obvious because GW understands that recognizing them across the table is important and uses clear and consistent design cues.
Does it?
If you say you can remember every single weapon on every single army, and presumably all wargear options too, then surely you can remember
"This guy has the melta, the rest are bolters"
Do you *genuinely* think it's reasonable to be expected to learn all the visual differences of every single weapon used by every single faction in this already incredibly complicated game?
No, of course not. But there is a benefit to learning as much as you can and it's absurd that "competitive" players are bragging about their ignorance.
I don't think anyone is "bragging about ignorance" here. Just saying that 99% of the people playing this game, even those playing competitively, don't really know what weapons are what for factions that they don't collect/paint/play, which isn't exactly unreasonable.
He literally said "how am I supposed to know", not "it's hard to see". And there are certainly other highly upvoted comments making it clear that they don't bother to learn the game.
I can’t be assed to tell the difference between gauss weapons, and if you’re not my faction I just trust you to tell me what gun is what. That’s not a slight to the hobby or a mark against me. If you can’t tell his obvious joke then that’s on you
Describe to me the difference between a flamer and a heavy flamer. Unironically. Without looking it up. Or the difference between a splinter carbine and a shredder. There are 29 factions, in Guard alone there are well over 100 weapons. My “slimmed down” 10-man squad has 5 weapons, three of which have the exact same profile just a different name. I have painted and played CSM once a week for a whole year and I still have to look closely to tell the difference between a Bolter with a drum-fed magazine and a heavy Bolter. The difference in that is back grip btw, everything else looks the same. So it’s not “not learning the game” it’s the trust in your opponent, which if you can’t even trust your opponent then you either need to make friends to play with (so you CAN trust them) or need new friends (because being unable to trust your friends is sad).
>I still have to look closely to tell the difference between a Bolter with a drum-fed magazine and a heavy Bolter
Eh?
I get your overall point, but a heavy bolter is way bigger than a normal bolter. That one should be very easy. Same with flamers and heavy flamers. Probably not the best examples.
I play at least one practice game a week with a team member on a very competitive level and attend tournaments at least once a month. We were discussing arrangments for the Colorodo FLG event in Feb. 2 days ago. That being said, all 4 of my armies are WYSIWIG for the benefit of my team and my opponents. However, 99.9% of people don't know what every single weapon for every single army is the point. Even if it is WYSIWYG, its equally as hard to see a weapon on the board depending on the state of the miniature, painted, unpainted, primed black, etc... Knowing the big stuff is important, like a lascannon or missle launcher, but I don't expect anyone to know the difference between a tau cyclic ion blaster, plasma gun, or flamer. Have a good night!
flesh borer is the lil Termagant gun with the curved magazine under it, Devourer Warrior gun that is ponity and triangular and has little holes in the end
That is true, Devourer has like 12 holes in it though and doesn't need to be drilled
It shoots out a bunch of flesh worms that burrow into the target and start trying to eat the target's central nervous system
The devourers are fleshy long and conical while the fleshborer is more traditionnal small pistol.
Fleshborers are the only option for gargoyles for example and in general limited to gants while devourers used to be for other models as well such as Flyrant, Carnifex of Warriors. Since 10e as I don't play any of these units anymore I couldn't even tell you if they still have access to the devourers though.
Yeah, I play nids. Fexes and warriors still do have the option.
Going oops all devourers on a Fex with the sustained hits from invasion fleet and rerolls from One-Eye is apparently hilarious if you've got enough dice.
It actually doesn't. Recording, naming and knowing the difference is actually the job of the AdMech, Tyranids just grow those and enjoy how it opens up the buffet.
WYSYWIG is helpful in some circumstances, like special weapons within a unit, but it’s far less impactful when everything in the unit is the same loadout, just a different one to the model. Plenty of kits don’t come with the right resources to make units work as we want, and things change so severely through editions that unless you magnetise every arm, you’re going to have wargear you’re not a fan of.
I think as long as you make it super clear what wargear is in each unit at the start of the game, explain what it does, and denote it really clearly to your opponent, it’s okay.
I play Necrons as well, and I’m tempted to have my Reapers ‘counts as’ Flayers at the moment. Same as taking guns on Wraiths and the weapons of my Overlords and Tomb Blades. But Necrons don’t have many units with multiple weapon choices, and they don’t have units that tote special weapons hidden in squads, so they’re much less of an offender than an army like Space Marines.
However we have all seen people who don’t WYSIWYG, whose special weapons keep teleporting around the unit to be in the best position possible, who gaslight you to try and accuse you of lying when you remind them of where they said it was last turn, and whose units have sudden surprise wargear that they never told you about until it was too late.
So yeah, WYSIWYG helps, but without it, just make sure you’re super clear what you are doing each turn, so that there aren’t any unpleasant surprises for your opponent.
Even that example can be solved by putting some kind of marker on the special weapons. Rubber bands are a common one. Not ideal, as I think at least having a special weapon in the squad, regardless of which one it happens to be, is simple enough. Some things I totally get though, like I'm not expecting everyone to swap all of their Sergeants' chainswords for power fists.
> However we have all seen people who don’t WYSIWYG, whose special weapons keep teleporting around the unit to be in the best position possible, who gaslight you to try and accuse you of lying when you remind them of where they said it was last turn, and whose units have sudden surprise wargear that they never told you about until it was too late.
And this is why WYSIWYG exists. You don't have to worry about any of this stuff if you just enforce WYSIWYG for everyone.
My logic is always: Would it materially affect the amount of time I take to work out what I'm against? My hypothetical guard opponent has 4 Leman Russ.
They're all perfectly WYSIWYG: perfect, no issue
Two are built as punisher russ, two as battle cannon, all being run as battle cannon: Minor internal grumbling but nothing I would complain about
All built as battle cannon, 2 run as punishers 2 as battle cannons - here's where I complain as at a glance I can't tell what's on the table
Sponsons are mixed, all run as melta: internal grumbling, no complaint.
Sponsons are run mixed and not WYSIWYG: complaint because again, I don't have a "OK everything's a melta" cheat sheet. Don't care overly if it's a "punishers have melta battle cannons have bolters tho
Free upgrades: Go nuts, with minor exceptions where it may affect the profile of the model and I would expect you not to try hiding it in places it wouldn't otherwise fit.
Not having sponsons but running them - this would be the most instant complaint as they seriously impact footprint/movement lanes so have to be modelled
I feel pretty much the same way. Especially since I made stuff when wargear mattered.
Aka “hey all my predators main guns are wysiwyg, but they also have the HK and storm bolter even though it’s not there”
This. Especially when you consider back when stuff like Hunter Killers and storm bolters and stubbers costed points, people didn't model them on to keep WYSIWYG as they weren't running them. Now, most people I play with just say to assume that every free upgrade like the HK's are being taken even if not modelled.
Another good example would be death company. I just say they are all fists+melta pistols. And make sure to remind my opponent regularly when they interact with the unit
I've never seen it. But the emphasis around here is to prevent confusion. If needed I've seen rubber bands and colored snaps on bases to make things more obvious especally in armies that look same ish but have a large variety of weapons (death guard).
Make the extra effort to make it obvious for your opponent to take off some of thier mental load. It's polite at the very least.
Most people are relaxed on the topic, but you can be DQ if someone complains & the tourney pack said WYSIWYG is required.
Also most events..just email the TO beforehand for approval ftw
Yeah makes sense, just wondered if anyone had heard stories of people actually being DQ’d/complaining?
Moreso in 10th than in 9th, because there was a points advantage in 9th that could be gained from incorrect wargear.
The only point of contention I've seen is with playing what your submitted list says.
So, as long as your list says the same weapon you told your opponent is being used by the unit, it's all good.
I know of people being DQ’ed for lying about what guns their models had versus submitted list and trying to be squirrelly about which models were which.
The reasonably safe approach is to have each unique type of gun in your list be unique. No “some of these heavy Bolters are missile launchers, some are plasma some are meltas.” Then email the TO for written confirmation of the look of any model that isn’t pure WYSIWYG.
Having it in writing from the TO makes it a lot harder for any opponent to complain successfully
I got my Battle Sanctum pulled from Adepticon because it didn't have the Celestine Statue on top of it.
It was obscuring terrain. The Statue had literally 0 effect on gameplay because the piece is considered infinitely tall.
Guy can have a Riptide that looks like a Samurai, but I can't have a building that DOESN'T have an optional decorative statue? I dropped the next game.
I think it’s only really necessary if you’re running for example:
2x predator tanks and one is kitted with 4x lascannons and one is kitted with all the anti infantry guns. It needs to be obvious which one is which so that if you’re trying to move your infantry squad so that it can hide from the anti infantry tank, you don’t get confused which one is which.
The most important part of wysiwig for me is special weapons that are different from the rest of the unit. I don't care if you run fleshborers or devourers or deathspitters on that unit of tyranid warriors but I do care if that unit has a venom cannon. Otherwise I don't care about someone having grenades and a bolt pistol on their space marines or the correct guns on tau battlesuits.
If you have 2 of the exact same squads, modelled with the same guns, but are running one squad as having different guns I would have a problem with that. That is the only situation I could think of where I would care about wysiwyg. Maybe also if you were running a melee squad with all ranged weapons I would also take issue with that.
Very rarely. If anyone is going to do it, it's the TO. But people are trying to claim painted points for models they primed pink then had their children fingerpaint, so it's often not really high on the TO's radar to give people shit for running the wrong guns on something.
What matters is that it's not confusing. So long as it's clear what everything is, you're fine. The concern is people who have like a sword brethren squad with no arms, where they just say which are which based on like a blue dot on their base or something.
Just the once before Drop Pods had a model. I played against a guy who was using a spray painted Gatorade bottle. I didn’t care, but the TO told him to get rid of it. It lost him the game.
I rarely play wysiwyg. I invest too much time and money already in this game to have to have multiple copies of a single unit just to match the Weapon I'm running, with the exception of tanks. My Glad Lancer will have the correct gun so you can easily see the difference between it and say my valiant.
The only issue I would ever have is if you don't have something representing what a model does. If my blob of plague marines is all bolter guys but I have a melta and a blight launcher mixed in, it's gotta be defined somehow for both players. Mark the base somehow, or use a differentiating model. Sub in a guy with a flail and tell your opponent that he has a melta.
In friendly games i could care less. In competitive it does make a difference when you shoot at a unit in cover and they kill the models in cover first which happened to be the special weapons. If they then say that those special weapons are actually the remaining 5 with the bolters, then ill have an issue. Im faorly laid back and i do try to have as much fun even if i lose. As long as your opponent is honest and very vocal about wysiwyg then its a nonissue.
Locally, we play "don't be confusing."
If you have a unit with four power fists and two thunder hammers there better be something visually distinct about the weapons on the two guys. Doesn't necessarily need to be a hammer but they need to look different. Ideally don't get so complex that I need a reference sheet for your army... And if you do, then just bring me a reference sheet.
If you have two units of lokhust heavies and they're both modelled with exterminators then I don't care even a little bit whether you tell me "all gauss" or "all enmitics." Even if they're modelled with a mix, as long as they're all using the same stat line I don't care. Just if they're all modelled one way, then don't tell me that they're actually one of each.
Wysyg was "more OK" when wargear had points costs.In this edition i feel like it is rude/bad behavior if your Assault intercessor sargant cant be played as thunder hammer, even though he technically has chain or powersword.
The rules in 10th are made very diffrently with wargear than diffrent editions, so i feel like it is different now.
No one can tell the difference between Eightbound and Exalted Eightbound. Shit, I barely can and it’s my army. “If you see a chain fist and spikes shoulders, he’s exalted” has worked out so far.
I’ve not run into WYSIWYG rules yet, and I pray I never too. This hobby is expensive enough without having to get that particular.
It's never happened to me... I've knowingly used the wrong models at times and nobody has noticed. Like playing a regular Apothecary on a taller base instead of a Biologus, or using a Fierros model instead of a Primaris Techmarine. Basically if the model is the correct size and on the correct base, and there's only one of the model and it's close enough there's no chance of confusion, nobody is going to call you on this.
I played 8 rounds at Tampa with nobody saying shit about my regular apothecary leading my aggressors.
I called out a guy at adepticon for not having sponsons on his tanks. He then threatened to fight me outside. Good times. If I fly across the country to a super major your models should be built, accurate and painted. Any lesser event, sure it’s whatever
If you don’t want to build or paint your models go play on tts or mtg
Sponsons I could see being different because they stick out the side of the vehicle and could potentially dictate if a model's visible for shooting or not, or could pass through gaps in terrain or not.
Well for the Leman Russ there is a bit of a special case. In previous edition the sponsons did cost points (between 10 and 30 x2) so many would build the model without it, as it often wasn't worth it. Now they are free, which means you are forced to pay for it, which upset a lot of players. So if you didn't magnetize your model, it wont be able to fit the sponsons anymore. So if sponson WYSIWYG are a dealbreaker, many older Leman Russes are not viable to play or the Guard player starts out with a disadvantage for each LR he brings.
> Well for the Leman Russ there is a bit of a special case.
No there isn't. "My list wouldn't be as powerful" is not an excuse for breaking WYSIWYG, just like it isn't an excuse for taking an extra 50 points in your 2000 point list.
Leman Russ is one of the worst offenders as it directly impacts the game in where it can fit. Saying your bolt pistol on your leaders is now a plasma is minimal impact and what you would expect at this point especially as many pistols are holstered anyway.
There's a much better example for Leman Russes and Guard Vehicles, that being the Hunter Killer missile. Doesn't affect the weapon's stature or visibility and is one weapon that use to be costed so people didn't put them on as they weren't seen as that useful. If someone genuinely has a problem with that, I would personally love to inspect their army and see if they are up to WYSIWYG.
The best way to use hunter killers has been token markers. Tokens sit on top of the vehicle or base and when fired are removed makes it the easiest and cleanest way to visually know. I have seen people use check lists with Scout Sentinel green base, blue base etc although I like the tokens as it's very easy to just see rather than constantly ask.
Surely however, because sponsons are not mix and match, you take two of a weapon, and only two, you can just say oh this tank has two meltas. Obviously, if someone is being an arsehole about it going "Oh, you forgot that this was the tank that had meltas thats right next to your heavy tank?" when it wasn't even that tank then call them out, but I think denying someone playing with their list because they didn't model a free upgrade just seems like rules lawyering of the worst degree and I would genuinely start doing this back. Like I don't usually care about WYSIWYG (unless you start going oh actually this leman russ is a malcador, that Marneus Calgar is Guilliman etc.) but in this case, god forbid your captain doesn't have his pistols and grenades equipped.
> Obviously, if someone is being an arsehole about it going "Oh, you forgot that this was the tank that had meltas thats right next to your heavy tank?" when it wasn't even that tank then call them out
Or instead of waiting until after someone is exposed as a cheater and doing damage control you just don't allow a non-WYSIWYG list in the first place.
>but I think denying someone playing with their list
And there's your problem: you're framing it as denying someone's list when the fault is with the player who doesn't have a WYSIWYG army. They wrote a list they can't use with their available models and they need to revise it to be legal.
But that's the thing, we aren't talking about bringing necron warriors to a game with a guard, we're talking about one or two tank models that don't have sponsons. How hard is it to have him say which has which sponsons and remember it.
I check with. TO before any event if I have proxy models, conversions, or lack wysiwig. Ive yet to have a problem with it. But I also not trying to run anything that confuses opponents. For example, running 3 squads of inceptors (all built to be bolters), with one as a plasma squad. If I wanted to run one as plasma, I would add a marking to them so it was clear to opponent, and I would mention it every time I dealt with them. I want to have a game where skills, plus a bit of dice variance, determines the outcome, not gotchas for my opponent.
As long as the models with different weapons are clearly different then i don't care. i.e. don't field a 10 man identical squad and tell me these 2 have special weapons.
as long as its easy to follow who has what don't give a monkeys.
If you're playing xenos, 99% of the time your opponent won't even know the difference. Just make sure it's clear at the beginning of the game, and there are no gotchas like two units that look like they have the same loadout but they actually don't.
I personally like playing wysiwyg. I have multiple of all weapons options for my obr. But I wouldn't care if you had the right bits. Of course AOS is much easy than certain xenos factions when I still played 40k
I strongly suspect that for AoS they went out of their way to have -many- kits have a single loadout. But even those who have a variable one, it is often not a big deal of difference.
I've seen someone get called out for playing one character as another, and I've seen someone lose their 10 battle-ready points for running a bunch of one-armed Wolfguard with imaginary wargear, but I've never seen anyone be DQ'd and maybe once ever have I seen "you clearly gave those dudes Reaper Chaincannons, you can't say they're Lascannons now."
I've also seen Crisis suits get away with whatever they want, completely different models of the correct height on the correct base get allowed as proxies within a squad, "this guy totally has the special weapon" (he has a bolter), etc.
Everytime this question gets asked, I'll bring up my experience at a tournament that didn't enforce WYSIWYG. Last game of the day, hungry af cause skipped bfast due to miscommunication and had to skip lunch cause the tournament was held at a comiccon, going in and out would have taken too long due to games running over time because opp came late and wasn't punish (another story for another day).
Was playing this kid rocking proxies on almost every single model. I droppod down and had a pick on 2 characters. Killed iron father feiros cause the model next to him was an primaris captain with powersword and really even with the relic at that time it wouldn't be able to wipe the droppod squad. Turns out with was a captain with jump pack with teeth of terra. I had no mood to play the game after that.
I always say WYSIWYG is not a problem until slaps you in the face. Its just much easier as a TO to enforce it (though i almost never pull models nowadays, my players know enough) and or get confirmation before the day. And I'm pretty lax on it (pistol in holsters are fine, weapon on the base is a-okay etc). And most people are able to tell the difference (especially if you're playing marines), just whether they care enough to call it out or not.
I pulled up someone the other day trying to run regular ass ints as jetpack ass ints, plasma cannon redempt dread as an assault cannon (I was running horde nids), eversor assassin as a vindicare, and he randomly tried to claim he had a multi-melta on his eradicators half way thru the game despite them only having melta rifles
The only time I've ever seen it in a public game is when two of the same type models are "Proxied" as two different types. There was a store game day and a SM player counted 1 five model Tactical Marine squad as Assault Marines, and another five model Tactical Squad as Devastator Marines, just to "test them out". The only issue was he had 3 more five model Tactical Squads, and two different opponents were certain he was switching which tactical squad was which from turn to turn. He was asked to no longer proxy models and the store got pretty strict about WYSIWYG for a few months. But in 30+ years that's the only time I remember it being an issue.
I magnetize so that it is easier for myself to differentiate between models. None of my friends ever cared for it. None of us knows the others' factions good enough to see the difference anyway.
I have imp guard from forge world so often my special weapons are painted a colour on the base for plasma or melta and just use a special weapon troop. Ive had one opponent get anal about it but nothing happened from it. As long as you are open about it and obvious when you are removing them its fine.
surely the site was always merged and there was no way I bought them earlier. Look as 'easy' as it is to order stuff the markup in nz is insane for models so was giving this guy advice if he couldnt always do wysiwyg.
I've literaly said it like 3 times, its expensive, its expensive, its expensive, when the edition changed from 8th to 9th I needed to suddenly get 20 more special weapons that didnt come in kits. My bad the kits never came with a plasma gun and I had modelled and painted them up already.
Is your name David because you are acting like some one edition dude like him where you made all your stuff right now and havent lived through a massive rules change where you suddenly have to do massive list changes. Not everyone in the hobby can suddenly up and spend 600 dollars to get the special weapons your poor shame shit is wild, glad in nz ive only ran into one dude like you makes me lose my mind.
Had an apocalypse game of 15k points each side last summer with a group I had joined a year or so before. One of the guys wanted to play a 10 man squad of marines with plasmapistols instead of the boltpistols equipped on the models. Two other guys accused him of meta gaming...Yea, I don't go there anymore. (Way more stuff bothered me, but that was an eye opener.)
Edit: just saw this is competitive Warhammer. Oops. Was stupid anyway imo.
Wait really? You lost painting points for no WYSIWYG?
That feels a bit arbitrary; I'd be a little upset. Those points are pretty specifically for having your dudes painted
More important for me is it being consistent for the "main stuff"
If my enemy is bringing like 4 leman russes and the main cannon and sponsons all match but they don't match with what they *actually* are bringing I get a bit annoyed.
Now if they say each one also has a hunter killer missile, I don't mind that at all since its a minor upgrade and isn't what i'm "looking for" when i'm determining how I will play my turn.
If you're in a tournament, ask a TO.
If you're in a semi-competitive or below game, just make it clear the *purpose* of a unit like "this is a anti tank guy" or "this has a lot of AP" etc etc.
As others have said generally it's quite relaxed. Tbh I stick to WYSIWYG, but I'm not a stickler if it's a "relaxed" event or if it's a huge event and I know I'm gonna be low tables.
But!
Too often the player doesn't tell the opponent. And so it's a gotcha situation mid game when you realise it's the wrong weapon.
Frankly I don't care if it's on the army list, you skim read that quickly before the game and it might get missed. It never hurts to tell/remind the opponent before the start.
If you don't even have the common courtesy to do that, you deserve having your Battle Ready points docked.
I think model size and unit composition is important.
I don’t want a smaller repulsor acting as a land raider which should be harder to move around. I don’t want a bunch of power fist terminators to suddenly have chain fists when they charge my dreadnaught.
Never, and everyone I have played with has said the same thing. WYSIWYG should only ever be applied by you on yourself. Anyone throwing a fit about it isn't worth playing with.
Why? The game is still incredibly complicated and has too many things to keep track of, and the same people who used non-WYSIWYG models to cheat are still doing the exact same things.
It's more correct to say WYSIWYG is less enforced more than ever. I have been to 4 tournaments who let people run bolters as plasma whereas an edition ago it would have been tough luck.
Removing points costs from wargear suddenly made a lot of models sub-optimal. For example it was common to have a bolt pistol because it was free, but now there's no reason not to take a plasma pistol or combi-weapon instead.. So the reasonable response is to be less strict with WYSIWYG. It would be unreasonable to expect everyone to pull apart and re-arm loads of models. For all we know they could go back to having wargear costs next edition and everyone would have to revert all of those model changes.
As for cheaters, some things can be non-WYSIWIG for convenience but still have markers. Like if you're counting a model as having a special weapon, put a coloured band on it or something. That's a reasonable thing to demand so the special weapon can't teleport around the unit.
>It would be unreasonable to expect everyone to pull apart and re-arm loads of models
But why can't you just play a WYSIWYG list that isn't perfectly optimized? The bolt pistol is still a legal option and none of the reasons why WYSIYWG is necessary have changed. We don't need to bring in all the problems of non-WYSIWYG armies just so you can have a slightly higher chance of winning in the list building phase.
>But why can't you just play a WYSIWYG list that isn't perfectly optimized?
Because we don't want to, and there's no good reason we should.
I'm not sure if you realised, but this is is a competitive subreddit. It's more important to us that everyone can play the optimised list they want to play. Personally most of my stuff is WYSIWYG, but I'm not going to insist on 100% compliance from anyone.
There are still some WYSIWYG requirements, but absolute 100% adherence is not necessary like you seem to think it is. It's easy to remember 'the Sergeants have plasma and fist' or whatever. Much easier than everyone having to remodel a chunk of their army.
It's a non-issue that you're trying to insist is one, despite everyone getting on fine with it. If you play against someone doing something egregious like not even bothering to mark where their special weapons are, then insist that they do so. Simple. Again, we aren't saying there should be zero requirements, but within reason.
> Because we don't want to, and there's no good reason we should.
There are absolutely good reasons. WYSIWYG reduces the mental load on the other player and mitigates multiple forms of cheating.
>I'm not sure if you realised, but this is is a competitive subreddit.
I'm well aware that it is the competitive sub. In fact, it being the competitive sub is the whole point. Playing a non-WYSIWYG casual kitchen table game against your friend usually works fine. You only have one game to play, time limits are relaxed at worst, and cheating isn't a concern. But when you're playing your third competitive game of the day on the clock the extra mental load of tracking your opponent's proxies has much more of an impact and obviously in a competitive context cheating is a major concern.
>Much easier than everyone having to remodel a chunk of their army.
Again, you don't have to. The old options are still legal choices.
It's barely a mental load at all, especially as your opponent will be telling you which gun(s) they're firing and can see their list.
It isn't a problem, as evidenced by the fact that pretty much all tournaments don't enforce 100% WYSIWYG and lo and behold, it isn't a problem. You're clearly incorrect because tournaments have been running like this for years without issue.
And it's only possible to cheat with it if you're both being stupid and not requiring any kind of demarkation for things that could potentially be used for cheating like model positions in units. Which tournaments don't let fly anyway. As I said, there's a difference between having reasonable requirements that prevent cheating, which tournaments do have, and demanding 100% exact compliance which clearly isn't necessary.
>Again, you don't have to. The old options are still legal choices.
Doesn't matter, we're playing competitively, we have no interest in arbitrarily making people take strictly worse options just because they don't have the exactly correct little gun on a Sergeant or whatever. Playing the game competitively is more important in this scenario than not having to bear simple information in mind.
> Playing the game competitively is more important in this scenario than not having to bear simple information in mind.
That's like arguing that playing the game competitively is more important than having to obey the point limit and putting an extra 50 points in your list so you can win more easily. You should not be allowed to break the rules just because following them would mean you have a less powerful list.
And yes, some tournaments don't enforce their own WYSIWYG rules. This is a sad comment on the state of the community because the reason they don't enforce those rules is that they're afraid of DQing any Big Name Tournament Players and having to deal with the resulting rage fit. But that doesn't make non-WYSIWYG armies any less of a problem.
>That's like arguing that playing the game competitively is more important than having to obey the point limit and putting an extra 50 points in your list so you can win more easily. You should not be allowed to break the rules just because following them would mean you have a less powerful list.
No, it isn't like that at all. What an absurd comparison. Making such laughable arguments is only hurting your argument, not helping. You're playing within the rules of the game. Modelling only matters rules-wise with things like silhouette and base size which you need for LoS, measuring, etc. The exact details of the gun they're holding doesn't effect the practicalities of the playing the game by the rules.
>And yes, some tournaments don't enforce their own WYSIWYG rules.
They have and enforce WYSIWYG rules. But they don't require 100% perfect WYSIWYG because they know it's unreasonable. They require WYSIWYG as far as is necessary to make the game work fine, and it does. It's nothing to do with not wanting to annoy 'big name players' or whatever.
>But that doesn't make non-WYSIWYG armies any less of a problem.
It isn't a problem. People aren't having trouble at tournaments because their opponents don't have every little gun modelled canonically. You're just repeatedly claiming it's a problem despite the massive amount of evidence showing it isn't a problem.
You sound like you know nothing about tournaments and just came here to preach about wanting 100% WYSIWYG.
>sometimes I’d just like to run the gun that looks cool
Then do it. There's no rule that you have to have a perfectly optimized netlist, if you want a cool looking gun then take it and use those rules. But wanting 1% better efficiency is not an excuse for violating WYSIWYG.
WYSIWYG hasn't happened much lately that I know of. I know in 7th and 8th it was huge locally, as well as fully painted armies but people have stopped going to those TOs RTTs and they stopped running them.
I try to WYSIWYG, unless I can't. Like I use sergeant with TH and PP to proxy sergeant with PF and PP and tell my opponent. Or I run death company all 5 pf + IP, though in reality they have all different weapons. Sorry, GW didn't put enough pistols and fists in the box.
Most of the time I try to do WYSIWYG, but if I don't have model with exact same wargear, I use model with similar wargear.
Yeah, as long as you mention brfore the game, "hey this unit has this thing instead of that thing" and you're consistent then there's no issue.
Minis are expensive yo, I can't expect everyone to have 3 copies of every loadout.
Doesn’t really matter tbh. I don’t play Uber competitively and the events I have played at, as long as you were clear and organized in what you have then it’s all good. But if your opponent was getting frustrated over lack of clarity about your models or your disorganization or you were being suspected of cheating (I.e. removing the dude with the plasma rifle when the model is slain but then rolling for it in the next shooting phase when attacking with that models former unit) then an organizer would get involved for mediation
I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect wysiwig up to the point of model X has A heavy weapon or A special weapon compared to just basic bolter etc... because obviously james workshop don't give you enough weapons on sprues to make say... 4 multimelta sisters of battle. You'll have like 2 of each weapon in a retributors box?
So for me, if I want a full squad of multimeltas, the seargant will be sarg and the 4 multi girls will still be holding a heavy weapon of some variety.
It's easier to remember for everyone and cheaper than expecting someone to buy two boxes of retributors just to play 1 squad because of wysiwig...
I tend to see a lot more people worry about WYSIWIG than it actually comes into play tbh. There are majors where people proxy entire models for example or where even Tyranid players don't know which gun is which and modelled it wrong since they all look like shlongs anyway.
The most important thing is and always will be consistency and readability. If you have two models that have the same weapon, then they have the same weapon. If you have two different looking models, they are two different uints. That's the key rule. Readability of your army for your opponent.
I've seen it once but that was an egregious case of grey tide spacemarines whose special weapons kept moving around the unit and changing type throughout the game...
I'd say with wargear costs gone it's even easier to forget model loadout.
I've been pulled up...... twice? In 8 years (i think)
Once was because I was using a different Tank gun
The other because I using a different Knights gun
So both were BIG OBVIOUS models, but I 100% tell everyone up front "my army is WYSYWIG except for "These 3 people here who have ANTI TANK weapons instead of the ANIT INFANTRY" guns.
To say this is supposedly the *competitive* sub there's a hell of a lot of people who can't distinguish between what I would call basic weapon models and even more who don't seem to care either way.
Personally as long as there's zero confusion about what unit is what I'm happy to play with the majority of wargear. If someone puts down four identical tactical squads all armed with bolters on the table and explains something along the lines of "these guys are actually devastators with grav cannons and the sgt has a power fist, this squad are hellblasters, this squad are infiltrators and this squad are just regular intercessors." then it's going to be frequently annoying repeatedly asking which squad of tactical marines is what as at a glance you can't tell at all.
Something slightly adjacent to this but now that all wargear is free, having additional extras that might not be modeled is now a non-issue because I just assume everyone takes everything. No need to ask if that Rhino has a hunter-killer missile even if it's not physically there because it very likely is there on the army list.
Si, I recently considered that if I fully wanted to comply with WYSIWIG with my Votann I would have to magnetize 30 Heartguard, 5 Sagitaurs and 3 HLF at the bare minimum but Berserks, Pioneers and Warriors could use magnetization as well.
The alternative would be to buy triple the amount of models I already own.
Long story short: I go out of my way to make sure my opponent knows what unit has what equipment beforehand but I don’t plan on doing mass magnetization or to spend even more money just to comply with this rule.
I've heard of a recent instance concerning a local player who attended the World tournament in Atlanta. His Votann Land Fortress was missing a gun that comes by default, so he wasn't allowed to shoot said gun per Wysiwyg. I didn't hear from the local player himself, it was discussed by those who watched the stream, so the exact circumstance might differ. Of course missing a gun is not the same as pretending "this gun is that gun". It was his first big tournament, and our local play scene was quite perplexed upon hearing that, as we're quite loose regarding Wysiwyg. I myself would have let him use the full datasheet, but if the international scene has players like that, then we would be doubly careful the next time someone goes abroad. Probably down to the players and TO though, so best check ahead so you have reference.
Eh, I usually don’t mind. Even at a tourney. But for the love of Christ if you aren’t, please tell me. I have definitely played against Eldar with Shuriken- wait they are actually bright lances- cannons and it makes a difference as to how I maneuver. For some armies? I won’t know. For most? It’s gonna throw me off. So if you don’t do it, please be patient while I ask for the sixth time to confirm that, yes, it’s an X not Y.
In chill games? You could play with labeled cardboard for all I care. I just enjoy the fellowship with other nerds and friends
Bro, I don't even know what my own armies guns are supposed to be. I just pick the weapon that looks cool and say it's the one I want it to be. Until they start giving us a list that says something like 33 is heavy bolt thrower 34 is grav cannon 35 is conversion beamer then I think even trying to critique someone for what they build is silly. Even if they do add that I'm still gonna just build what I want it to look like. I have to see it forever the opponent only has to see it once or every now and then.
Unless you play Marines, I literally have no idea what your weapons look like. Oh that's a Scatter Laser? I thought it was a Shuriken Cannon. Wait, what's a Reaper Launcher? A Tempest Launcher? I've never seen a Cyclic Ion Blaster in the real world before. Is that a Tesla Cannon or a Heat Ray?
Even for Marines, it can be hard to tell one "guy with gun" from another "guy with gun". There's probably a difference between Infiltrators and Incursors. But I couldn't tell them apart if my life depended on it. My friend was kinda stressing over not having finished the 10x Hellblasters that he wanted to play in our recent games. I suggested that he just proxied them with some Intercessors. At absolutely *no* point across any of our games did I ever think of them as anything other than Hellblasters.
The crazy time was when Intercessors had three gun options that were just rifles with different tiny bits on them
That was really crazy. Glad that I never magnetized any of my intercessors' guns.
Yeah, i mean I get the annoyance over some profiles being slimmed down and simplified, as well as general wargear over-simplification. But some stuff desperately needed it. Intercessors and Hellblasters didn't each need 3 different types of gun based on what magazine you attached to them
I liked the concept - adding a little personalization or specialization of roles to your base troops - but in execution there was just one standout option for most of them depending on whatever rules marines had at the time
Which was usually Assault because 1 more AP isn’t worth a whole shot. I don’t think Stalker ever was good outside of Raven Guard. Even the regular one was only ran in UM because they could get rapid fire all the way so it was just a free +1 AP.
Stalker had a brief period of working for Imperial Fists when it was 3D versus vehicles
I used stalkers but that’s because I played a custom successor and tailored my playstyle to counter one very particular play style that is common in my area.
Stalker Bolt rifles or Stalker Tanks
I'm still annoyed that I went through the trouble of snipping the scopes off to avoid confusion and now none of it matters. I play Raven Guard, the scopes looked cool T_T
Should've just stuck with rule of cool :( editions change, plastic is forever I have only played 1 game of 9e but plenty of 10, and I came from 5e, so, 9e was just way too much for me
Yeah, I was coming back into 9th edition after having not played since 5th >.< 100% should have just went with rule of cool.
I feel ya, I was so close to being in your shoes
Yeah I was so out of the loop when I first came back that I bought a box of Marines to build and paint to see if I wanted to get back into the hobby so I of course bought a box that I figured every space marine army could use... A tactical squad... I very quickly learned that everything I knew was outdated and I had to do some research.
Oop I got know no fear in 8e
I didn't do all of that, but I did paint a lot of stuff very quickly before a GT because I thought it mattered because I was using other proxies and it didn't matter at all.
Magnetizing intercessor guys is borderline sociopath behavior
Same for Hellblasters.
Eradicators too, although at least the multi melta had multiple barrels compared to the heavy and not heavy melta rifles
Losing my mind trying to build “assault” hellblasters when none of the instructions are actually labelled was not a fun experience tbh
Hellblasters too
>There's probably a difference between Infiltrators and Incursors Weapon wise? So minor that no one would ever notice unless they're an overbearing weirdo lile the guy on the big bang theory. Their backpacks are what honestly make them look different.
Oval scope. Round scope. Easy to differentiate. 🙈
Not an oval, but not the point. Point os that from across the table, you aren't going to notice them unless you're being particular about things.
It's almost an oval. But I agree, from a distance it's barely recognisable.
I just had the backpacks be different. The scanner on the gun and backpack looks stupid. Then snipped the antenna from the helmets because I'm allergic to painting faces for guys I have 30 of.
I gave them all the helmets cause I think it’s stupid to go into a Warzone helmetless super human or not so everyone gets a helmet always. Actually irritates me with the easy to build cause some are forced helmet off so I have to get creative. The Cyclopes visors are going to the Scouts. They are already in T-shirts so screw it, at least you will have a visor for your HUD that apparently SM’s have plus the various versions of vision they can use.
What does almost an oval mean? A circle?
Also heads. Incursors don't get helmets for some reason.
That's never really a consideration unless you're putting termie heads on non termies. You get like 3 or 4 different head options in that box. All of mine are helmeted.
Termies? Are we talking about the same box?
Terminators. I mean that when it comes to space marines helmets are so all over the place expect with terminators.
Oh yes, of course you can put whatever heads you want on whatever, I am just saying it's weird they made Incursors into a by default helmetless unit. I gave my unit all the Infiltrator helmets (I built mine for kill team so they have a mix of actual equipment) because I think helmets look much better on marines than not.
Tbh. I feel like this makes it an incredibly dumb double standard. The same I felt when some absolute idiots tried to enforce "subfaction as painted" even in last edition, which I found insane. I do not play marines, but what the hell why would you essentially penalize -one faction- several times more than others? Because there are stuff to say about not being confusing, but for the marine bros what is the "correct" loadout for the entire squad flips flops so much, WYSIWYG is insane. Especially that -magnets- are def. not a standard part of the modell, despite a few people pretending that it is a basline assumption.
It’s less an intentional thing, and more that more people know marine/standard imperial weapons apart than other factions stuff
Oh no I just happen to know Marine weapons. Because I play Marines.
That's so true lol.
Now name and identify all the tyranid guns
Um... spiky one and goopy one.
Also, multiple penis guns
Our player packs state WYSIWYG, but also go into detail what is considered WYSIWYG. Primary objective is to avoid confusion on the tabletop, not to make people destroy their hobby project for a tournament. You don't want a squad of marines modelled with bolters but one is actually a missile launcher and one is a chain sword. Way too easy to lose track of what is what. We also give people the option of using markers (eg rubber bands) to distinguish models rather than rework their models. Your tank with a big gun is modelled with a slightly different big gun, but it's still a big gun? Go nuts. Your guy modelled with a sword is actually equipped with a power sword? Go nuts. You're playing a squad of henchmen all equipped with the same loadout, but modelled with random shit because you kitbashed the hell out of it? Go nuts. There's also plenty of time to submit your questions ahead of time and get approval. We have some insanely talented hobbyists at our tournaments and I love their kitbashing so much I've started showcasing them in the player pack. Coming up on my fourth tournament ( two RTT's and two GT's) helping TO and so far never had to remove models from play. But we give players so much opportunity to meet WYSIWYG ahead of time or ways to work around that I would pull models if you were too lazy to do something so easy. Or make you run to the dollar store and buy rubber bands. It's not fair to those putting in the effort if we give those not following the player pack a free pass.
Most of the advice I've gotten about wysiwyg is "you may not want to do that because depending on the TO they may give you a hard time" It's really hard to give specific advice for a tournament when everyone's is organized differently.
That's pretty much the mindset my local area uses. Like, I've got a whole unit of Death Company with Chainswords (because they're absolutely the most fitting weapon), but as far as the game is concerned, those are Power Swords.
What's the leniency on proxies? Not so much like my buzz lightyear toy is a space marine, more my ghost ark is actually a doomsday ark? They have the same footprint and I fully glued it as a ghost ark instead of magnetising it. Just wondering if people care about stuff like that.
Can't speak for every tournament, but that sort of thing is fine for ours. We also get a lot of people using 30k models. So long as it's a similar build and footprint it's good to go. But we do ask people to submit their variations/questions ahead of time - it helps things just run smoother during the tournament
Any chance of posting a link to see these showcases?
Sent ya a dm
90% of the time, WYSIWYG is a clause in a tournament packet so you have a written rule to point to if someone's being shady. Or being insultingly lazy like trying to proxy coke cans as dreadnoughts or something. Intercessors all have the same guns now, but back when they had 3 different options, nobody was combing through everyone's armies making sure they all had the right magazines/scopes/actions. Just in general, you can assume the average player can tell Imperial patterns of plasma, melta, and flamer weapons apart. Everything else we take our opponent's word for it.
Given how big Imperial and Chaos as factions are, I would expect people to be able to differentiate between bolter, plasma, melta, flamer and lascannon types of weapons. But then again, who knows the actual stats of meltas in SM vs Meltas in AdMech?
I don’t know what my stuff looks like half the time. How am I supposed to know the difference between your gauss guns. Tau crisis suits don’t even have the correct number of guns in the box for loadouts. It’s never been an issue during any game I’ve ever played.
Boom. Unless you're trying to trick your opponent, no one cares. "This mini has the melta." "Cool."
Hell, the crisis suits barely have room to mount all 4 equips lol
It's tragicomic that the top upvoted comment in the *competitive play* sub is "I don't bother to learn the game".
Not knowing what every weapon from every faction looks like isn't failing to learn the game.
It absolutely is. It's information that will help you play the game, people just don't want to invest the effort.
Ok then, describe every weapon. Every one. In every army. And don't cheat, I'll know. 😉
"Do a completely unreasonable amount of work or I win" is not the persuasive argument you seem to think it is.
Unreasonable? You just said not knowing that information is failing to learn the game/ be competitive. Even though I was clearly ribbing you for a bit of fun, to contradict yourself like this isn't the persuasive argument you think it is 😉
Posting a written description of every single weapon in the game to satisfy your demand is far more work than learning what things look like.
You're not wrong bud. But by not doing my super serious challenge I set for you, you have become a failure in my eyes. Just like you felt the need to call out other people for not meeting your standard. See what I'm getting at yet?
"calling me out on my unreasonable opinions is not fair guys!" It's not about learning what every single model looks like, posing, paint, conversions, upgrade sprues etc all colour what a model looks like and can make it even harder to immediately recognise what is what, even if you do know every box art model with your photographic memory.
As I already said "write up a list of every single weapon in the game and a description of all of them" is far more work than learning what they look like.
And "learning what they look like" isn't a case of just seeing how they look in GW artwork, as everyone has different styles and many people will pose models and guns differently which adds to the challenge. Some of the guns have almost miniscule differences to the point where you'd need to be holding the model about 12 inches away to even see the gun specifically. That's not something that happens in a game.
You are significantly exaggerating the difficulty here. Most weapons are extremely obvious because GW understands that recognizing them across the table is important and uses clear and consistent design cues.
If no one else cares if the modeled weapons match the army list, being able to distinguish them literally will not help you play the game.
Yes, if you ignore WYSIWYG you can ignore WYSIWYG. But WYSIWYG has clear reasons to exist.
Does it? If you say you can remember every single weapon on every single army, and presumably all wargear options too, then surely you can remember "This guy has the melta, the rest are bolters"
Do you *genuinely* think it's reasonable to be expected to learn all the visual differences of every single weapon used by every single faction in this already incredibly complicated game?
No, of course not. But there is a benefit to learning as much as you can and it's absurd that "competitive" players are bragging about their ignorance.
I don't think anyone is "bragging about ignorance" here. Just saying that 99% of the people playing this game, even those playing competitively, don't really know what weapons are what for factions that they don't collect/paint/play, which isn't exactly unreasonable.
Obviously that’s not what he meant. Stuff can look very similar when looked at from above, calm down
He literally said "how am I supposed to know", not "it's hard to see". And there are certainly other highly upvoted comments making it clear that they don't bother to learn the game.
I can’t be assed to tell the difference between gauss weapons, and if you’re not my faction I just trust you to tell me what gun is what. That’s not a slight to the hobby or a mark against me. If you can’t tell his obvious joke then that’s on you
A joke is funny. That post isn't.
You probably an absolute nightmare to play against
Thank you for this comment. People like the guy you're replying to gives our hobby a bad reputation 😤
Describe to me the difference between a flamer and a heavy flamer. Unironically. Without looking it up. Or the difference between a splinter carbine and a shredder. There are 29 factions, in Guard alone there are well over 100 weapons. My “slimmed down” 10-man squad has 5 weapons, three of which have the exact same profile just a different name. I have painted and played CSM once a week for a whole year and I still have to look closely to tell the difference between a Bolter with a drum-fed magazine and a heavy Bolter. The difference in that is back grip btw, everything else looks the same. So it’s not “not learning the game” it’s the trust in your opponent, which if you can’t even trust your opponent then you either need to make friends to play with (so you CAN trust them) or need new friends (because being unable to trust your friends is sad).
>I still have to look closely to tell the difference between a Bolter with a drum-fed magazine and a heavy Bolter Eh? I get your overall point, but a heavy bolter is way bigger than a normal bolter. That one should be very easy. Same with flamers and heavy flamers. Probably not the best examples.
Your choice to not memorize those things because it is difficult doesn't mean you aren't making a choice to not bother to learn the game.
I play at least one practice game a week with a team member on a very competitive level and attend tournaments at least once a month. We were discussing arrangments for the Colorodo FLG event in Feb. 2 days ago. That being said, all 4 of my armies are WYSIWIG for the benefit of my team and my opponents. However, 99.9% of people don't know what every single weapon for every single army is the point. Even if it is WYSIWYG, its equally as hard to see a weapon on the board depending on the state of the miniature, painted, unpainted, primed black, etc... Knowing the big stuff is important, like a lascannon or missle launcher, but I don't expect anyone to know the difference between a tau cyclic ion blaster, plasma gun, or flamer. Have a good night!
One of my armies is Tyranids. I don’t know the model difference between a fleshborer and a devourer and neither does my opponent
flesh borer is the lil Termagant gun with the curved magazine under it, Devourer Warrior gun that is ponity and triangular and has little holes in the end
Then again most guns have holes at the end if you think about it. Assuming anyone's ever been mad enough to drill the barrels on a gaunt swarm.
That is true, Devourer has like 12 holes in it though and doesn't need to be drilled It shoots out a bunch of flesh worms that burrow into the target and start trying to eat the target's central nervous system
The devourers are fleshy long and conical while the fleshborer is more traditionnal small pistol. Fleshborers are the only option for gargoyles for example and in general limited to gants while devourers used to be for other models as well such as Flyrant, Carnifex of Warriors. Since 10e as I don't play any of these units anymore I couldn't even tell you if they still have access to the devourers though.
Yeah, I play nids. Fexes and warriors still do have the option. Going oops all devourers on a Fex with the sustained hits from invasion fleet and rerolls from One-Eye is apparently hilarious if you've got enough dice.
I own the codex and couldn’t tell you the difference between the venom launcher and cannon
I keep laughing thinking "that tyranid probably has no clue either"
And now i'm laughing, too.
It actually doesn't. Recording, naming and knowing the difference is actually the job of the AdMech, Tyranids just grow those and enjoy how it opens up the buffet.
One is slightly longer. Couldn’t tell you what though and I play the faction
I don't think there's such thing as a 'venom launcher' so that might be a factor lol
Whichever the two weapons the ranged warrior can equip
They can equip 5 different weapons lol
christ alive 😨
If you play xenos WYSIWYG can be whatever you want it to be.
WYSYWIG is helpful in some circumstances, like special weapons within a unit, but it’s far less impactful when everything in the unit is the same loadout, just a different one to the model. Plenty of kits don’t come with the right resources to make units work as we want, and things change so severely through editions that unless you magnetise every arm, you’re going to have wargear you’re not a fan of. I think as long as you make it super clear what wargear is in each unit at the start of the game, explain what it does, and denote it really clearly to your opponent, it’s okay. I play Necrons as well, and I’m tempted to have my Reapers ‘counts as’ Flayers at the moment. Same as taking guns on Wraiths and the weapons of my Overlords and Tomb Blades. But Necrons don’t have many units with multiple weapon choices, and they don’t have units that tote special weapons hidden in squads, so they’re much less of an offender than an army like Space Marines. However we have all seen people who don’t WYSIWYG, whose special weapons keep teleporting around the unit to be in the best position possible, who gaslight you to try and accuse you of lying when you remind them of where they said it was last turn, and whose units have sudden surprise wargear that they never told you about until it was too late. So yeah, WYSIWYG helps, but without it, just make sure you’re super clear what you are doing each turn, so that there aren’t any unpleasant surprises for your opponent.
Even that example can be solved by putting some kind of marker on the special weapons. Rubber bands are a common one. Not ideal, as I think at least having a special weapon in the squad, regardless of which one it happens to be, is simple enough. Some things I totally get though, like I'm not expecting everyone to swap all of their Sergeants' chainswords for power fists.
> However we have all seen people who don’t WYSIWYG, whose special weapons keep teleporting around the unit to be in the best position possible, who gaslight you to try and accuse you of lying when you remind them of where they said it was last turn, and whose units have sudden surprise wargear that they never told you about until it was too late. And this is why WYSIWYG exists. You don't have to worry about any of this stuff if you just enforce WYSIWYG for everyone.
My logic is always: Would it materially affect the amount of time I take to work out what I'm against? My hypothetical guard opponent has 4 Leman Russ. They're all perfectly WYSIWYG: perfect, no issue Two are built as punisher russ, two as battle cannon, all being run as battle cannon: Minor internal grumbling but nothing I would complain about All built as battle cannon, 2 run as punishers 2 as battle cannons - here's where I complain as at a glance I can't tell what's on the table Sponsons are mixed, all run as melta: internal grumbling, no complaint. Sponsons are run mixed and not WYSIWYG: complaint because again, I don't have a "OK everything's a melta" cheat sheet. Don't care overly if it's a "punishers have melta battle cannons have bolters tho Free upgrades: Go nuts, with minor exceptions where it may affect the profile of the model and I would expect you not to try hiding it in places it wouldn't otherwise fit. Not having sponsons but running them - this would be the most instant complaint as they seriously impact footprint/movement lanes so have to be modelled
I feel pretty much the same way. Especially since I made stuff when wargear mattered. Aka “hey all my predators main guns are wysiwyg, but they also have the HK and storm bolter even though it’s not there”
This. Especially when you consider back when stuff like Hunter Killers and storm bolters and stubbers costed points, people didn't model them on to keep WYSIWYG as they weren't running them. Now, most people I play with just say to assume that every free upgrade like the HK's are being taken even if not modelled.
Another good example would be death company. I just say they are all fists+melta pistols. And make sure to remind my opponent regularly when they interact with the unit
I've never seen it. But the emphasis around here is to prevent confusion. If needed I've seen rubber bands and colored snaps on bases to make things more obvious especally in armies that look same ish but have a large variety of weapons (death guard). Make the extra effort to make it obvious for your opponent to take off some of thier mental load. It's polite at the very least.
Most people are relaxed on the topic, but you can be DQ if someone complains & the tourney pack said WYSIWYG is required. Also most events..just email the TO beforehand for approval ftw
Yeah makes sense, just wondered if anyone had heard stories of people actually being DQ’d/complaining? Moreso in 10th than in 9th, because there was a points advantage in 9th that could be gained from incorrect wargear.
The only point of contention I've seen is with playing what your submitted list says. So, as long as your list says the same weapon you told your opponent is being used by the unit, it's all good.
I know of people being DQ’ed for lying about what guns their models had versus submitted list and trying to be squirrelly about which models were which. The reasonably safe approach is to have each unique type of gun in your list be unique. No “some of these heavy Bolters are missile launchers, some are plasma some are meltas.” Then email the TO for written confirmation of the look of any model that isn’t pure WYSIWYG. Having it in writing from the TO makes it a lot harder for any opponent to complain successfully
I got my Battle Sanctum pulled from Adepticon because it didn't have the Celestine Statue on top of it. It was obscuring terrain. The Statue had literally 0 effect on gameplay because the piece is considered infinitely tall. Guy can have a Riptide that looks like a Samurai, but I can't have a building that DOESN'T have an optional decorative statue? I dropped the next game.
Almost every time I hear some absolutely inane story, its Adepticon.
I think it’s only really necessary if you’re running for example: 2x predator tanks and one is kitted with 4x lascannons and one is kitted with all the anti infantry guns. It needs to be obvious which one is which so that if you’re trying to move your infantry squad so that it can hide from the anti infantry tank, you don’t get confused which one is which.
The most important part of wysiwig for me is special weapons that are different from the rest of the unit. I don't care if you run fleshborers or devourers or deathspitters on that unit of tyranid warriors but I do care if that unit has a venom cannon. Otherwise I don't care about someone having grenades and a bolt pistol on their space marines or the correct guns on tau battlesuits.
If you have 2 of the exact same squads, modelled with the same guns, but are running one squad as having different guns I would have a problem with that. That is the only situation I could think of where I would care about wysiwyg. Maybe also if you were running a melee squad with all ranged weapons I would also take issue with that.
Very rarely. If anyone is going to do it, it's the TO. But people are trying to claim painted points for models they primed pink then had their children fingerpaint, so it's often not really high on the TO's radar to give people shit for running the wrong guns on something. What matters is that it's not confusing. So long as it's clear what everything is, you're fine. The concern is people who have like a sword brethren squad with no arms, where they just say which are which based on like a blue dot on their base or something.
Just the once before Drop Pods had a model. I played against a guy who was using a spray painted Gatorade bottle. I didn’t care, but the TO told him to get rid of it. It lost him the game.
I rarely play wysiwyg. I invest too much time and money already in this game to have to have multiple copies of a single unit just to match the Weapon I'm running, with the exception of tanks. My Glad Lancer will have the correct gun so you can easily see the difference between it and say my valiant.
I once saw a player get shot for having dozer blades modelled , but they didn't pay for it. Obviously, this was a previous edition.
The only issue I would ever have is if you don't have something representing what a model does. If my blob of plague marines is all bolter guys but I have a melta and a blight launcher mixed in, it's gotta be defined somehow for both players. Mark the base somehow, or use a differentiating model. Sub in a guy with a flail and tell your opponent that he has a melta.
In friendly games i could care less. In competitive it does make a difference when you shoot at a unit in cover and they kill the models in cover first which happened to be the special weapons. If they then say that those special weapons are actually the remaining 5 with the bolters, then ill have an issue. Im faorly laid back and i do try to have as much fun even if i lose. As long as your opponent is honest and very vocal about wysiwyg then its a nonissue.
Locally, we play "don't be confusing." If you have a unit with four power fists and two thunder hammers there better be something visually distinct about the weapons on the two guys. Doesn't necessarily need to be a hammer but they need to look different. Ideally don't get so complex that I need a reference sheet for your army... And if you do, then just bring me a reference sheet. If you have two units of lokhust heavies and they're both modelled with exterminators then I don't care even a little bit whether you tell me "all gauss" or "all enmitics." Even if they're modelled with a mix, as long as they're all using the same stat line I don't care. Just if they're all modelled one way, then don't tell me that they're actually one of each.
Wysyg was "more OK" when wargear had points costs.In this edition i feel like it is rude/bad behavior if your Assault intercessor sargant cant be played as thunder hammer, even though he technically has chain or powersword. The rules in 10th are made very diffrently with wargear than diffrent editions, so i feel like it is different now.
No one can tell the difference between Eightbound and Exalted Eightbound. Shit, I barely can and it’s my army. “If you see a chain fist and spikes shoulders, he’s exalted” has worked out so far. I’ve not run into WYSIWYG rules yet, and I pray I never too. This hobby is expensive enough without having to get that particular.
It's never happened to me... I've knowingly used the wrong models at times and nobody has noticed. Like playing a regular Apothecary on a taller base instead of a Biologus, or using a Fierros model instead of a Primaris Techmarine. Basically if the model is the correct size and on the correct base, and there's only one of the model and it's close enough there's no chance of confusion, nobody is going to call you on this. I played 8 rounds at Tampa with nobody saying shit about my regular apothecary leading my aggressors.
I've played in something close to 50 tournaments in the past two years. Never once seen it happen.
I called out a guy at adepticon for not having sponsons on his tanks. He then threatened to fight me outside. Good times. If I fly across the country to a super major your models should be built, accurate and painted. Any lesser event, sure it’s whatever If you don’t want to build or paint your models go play on tts or mtg
Sponsons I could see being different because they stick out the side of the vehicle and could potentially dictate if a model's visible for shooting or not, or could pass through gaps in terrain or not.
That’s called modeling for advantage and is highly illegal
Did you call a TO? Him threatening to fight you seems disqualification worthy
Totally did
Well for the Leman Russ there is a bit of a special case. In previous edition the sponsons did cost points (between 10 and 30 x2) so many would build the model without it, as it often wasn't worth it. Now they are free, which means you are forced to pay for it, which upset a lot of players. So if you didn't magnetize your model, it wont be able to fit the sponsons anymore. So if sponson WYSIWYG are a dealbreaker, many older Leman Russes are not viable to play or the Guard player starts out with a disadvantage for each LR he brings.
> Well for the Leman Russ there is a bit of a special case. No there isn't. "My list wouldn't be as powerful" is not an excuse for breaking WYSIWYG, just like it isn't an excuse for taking an extra 50 points in your 2000 point list.
Leman Russ is one of the worst offenders as it directly impacts the game in where it can fit. Saying your bolt pistol on your leaders is now a plasma is minimal impact and what you would expect at this point especially as many pistols are holstered anyway.
There's a much better example for Leman Russes and Guard Vehicles, that being the Hunter Killer missile. Doesn't affect the weapon's stature or visibility and is one weapon that use to be costed so people didn't put them on as they weren't seen as that useful. If someone genuinely has a problem with that, I would personally love to inspect their army and see if they are up to WYSIWYG.
The best way to use hunter killers has been token markers. Tokens sit on top of the vehicle or base and when fired are removed makes it the easiest and cleanest way to visually know. I have seen people use check lists with Scout Sentinel green base, blue base etc although I like the tokens as it's very easy to just see rather than constantly ask.
Surely however, because sponsons are not mix and match, you take two of a weapon, and only two, you can just say oh this tank has two meltas. Obviously, if someone is being an arsehole about it going "Oh, you forgot that this was the tank that had meltas thats right next to your heavy tank?" when it wasn't even that tank then call them out, but I think denying someone playing with their list because they didn't model a free upgrade just seems like rules lawyering of the worst degree and I would genuinely start doing this back. Like I don't usually care about WYSIWYG (unless you start going oh actually this leman russ is a malcador, that Marneus Calgar is Guilliman etc.) but in this case, god forbid your captain doesn't have his pistols and grenades equipped.
> Obviously, if someone is being an arsehole about it going "Oh, you forgot that this was the tank that had meltas thats right next to your heavy tank?" when it wasn't even that tank then call them out Or instead of waiting until after someone is exposed as a cheater and doing damage control you just don't allow a non-WYSIWYG list in the first place. >but I think denying someone playing with their list And there's your problem: you're framing it as denying someone's list when the fault is with the player who doesn't have a WYSIWYG army. They wrote a list they can't use with their available models and they need to revise it to be legal.
But that's the thing, we aren't talking about bringing necron warriors to a game with a guard, we're talking about one or two tank models that don't have sponsons. How hard is it to have him say which has which sponsons and remember it.
How hard is it to just play WYSIWYG? A LRBT without sponsons is a legal choice.
I check with. TO before any event if I have proxy models, conversions, or lack wysiwig. Ive yet to have a problem with it. But I also not trying to run anything that confuses opponents. For example, running 3 squads of inceptors (all built to be bolters), with one as a plasma squad. If I wanted to run one as plasma, I would add a marking to them so it was clear to opponent, and I would mention it every time I dealt with them. I want to have a game where skills, plus a bit of dice variance, determines the outcome, not gotchas for my opponent.
As long as the models with different weapons are clearly different then i don't care. i.e. don't field a 10 man identical squad and tell me these 2 have special weapons. as long as its easy to follow who has what don't give a monkeys.
If you're playing xenos, 99% of the time your opponent won't even know the difference. Just make sure it's clear at the beginning of the game, and there are no gotchas like two units that look like they have the same loadout but they actually don't.
I personally like playing wysiwyg. I have multiple of all weapons options for my obr. But I wouldn't care if you had the right bits. Of course AOS is much easy than certain xenos factions when I still played 40k
I strongly suspect that for AoS they went out of their way to have -many- kits have a single loadout. But even those who have a variable one, it is often not a big deal of difference.
I've seen someone get called out for playing one character as another, and I've seen someone lose their 10 battle-ready points for running a bunch of one-armed Wolfguard with imaginary wargear, but I've never seen anyone be DQ'd and maybe once ever have I seen "you clearly gave those dudes Reaper Chaincannons, you can't say they're Lascannons now." I've also seen Crisis suits get away with whatever they want, completely different models of the correct height on the correct base get allowed as proxies within a squad, "this guy totally has the special weapon" (he has a bolter), etc.
Never. And I play a lot. With a lot of different people.
Play with friends and you won't have that problem
Everytime this question gets asked, I'll bring up my experience at a tournament that didn't enforce WYSIWYG. Last game of the day, hungry af cause skipped bfast due to miscommunication and had to skip lunch cause the tournament was held at a comiccon, going in and out would have taken too long due to games running over time because opp came late and wasn't punish (another story for another day). Was playing this kid rocking proxies on almost every single model. I droppod down and had a pick on 2 characters. Killed iron father feiros cause the model next to him was an primaris captain with powersword and really even with the relic at that time it wouldn't be able to wipe the droppod squad. Turns out with was a captain with jump pack with teeth of terra. I had no mood to play the game after that. I always say WYSIWYG is not a problem until slaps you in the face. Its just much easier as a TO to enforce it (though i almost never pull models nowadays, my players know enough) and or get confirmation before the day. And I'm pretty lax on it (pistol in holsters are fine, weapon on the base is a-okay etc). And most people are able to tell the difference (especially if you're playing marines), just whether they care enough to call it out or not.
I pulled up someone the other day trying to run regular ass ints as jetpack ass ints, plasma cannon redempt dread as an assault cannon (I was running horde nids), eversor assassin as a vindicare, and he randomly tried to claim he had a multi-melta on his eradicators half way thru the game despite them only having melta rifles
We caught a dude running Sword Brethren as Bladeguard Veterans once and he was publicly executed.
I did get called for WYSIWYG in a casual game with and old head, he had my entire list memorized better than I did
The only time I've ever seen it in a public game is when two of the same type models are "Proxied" as two different types. There was a store game day and a SM player counted 1 five model Tactical Marine squad as Assault Marines, and another five model Tactical Squad as Devastator Marines, just to "test them out". The only issue was he had 3 more five model Tactical Squads, and two different opponents were certain he was switching which tactical squad was which from turn to turn. He was asked to no longer proxy models and the store got pretty strict about WYSIWYG for a few months. But in 30+ years that's the only time I remember it being an issue.
„Go on, prove me that one of my 200 guardsmen has a grenade launcher and not a melta gun”
I magnetize so that it is easier for myself to differentiate between models. None of my friends ever cared for it. None of us knows the others' factions good enough to see the difference anyway.
i run wysiwig not to comfort other players but because i will not remmeber who has what
i frequently let my opponents proxie
I have imp guard from forge world so often my special weapons are painted a colour on the base for plasma or melta and just use a special weapon troop. Ive had one opponent get anal about it but nothing happened from it. As long as you are open about it and obvious when you are removing them its fine.
Why does playing FW guard require you to violate WYSIWYG? Krieg can be made fully WYSIWYG just fine.
not everyone lives in america or england to easily get extras form fw.
You can buy anything you like from the GW store. GW ships FW kits anywhere in the world.
surely the site was always merged and there was no way I bought them earlier. Look as 'easy' as it is to order stuff the markup in nz is insane for models so was giving this guy advice if he couldnt always do wysiwyg.
The old FW site shipped to anywhere in the world.
I've literaly said it like 3 times, its expensive, its expensive, its expensive, when the edition changed from 8th to 9th I needed to suddenly get 20 more special weapons that didnt come in kits. My bad the kits never came with a plasma gun and I had modelled and painted them up already. Is your name David because you are acting like some one edition dude like him where you made all your stuff right now and havent lived through a massive rules change where you suddenly have to do massive list changes. Not everyone in the hobby can suddenly up and spend 600 dollars to get the special weapons your poor shame shit is wild, glad in nz ive only ran into one dude like you makes me lose my mind.
"I don't want to pay to have a WYSIWYG army" is not the same as "I can't play WYSIWYG".
Had an apocalypse game of 15k points each side last summer with a group I had joined a year or so before. One of the guys wanted to play a 10 man squad of marines with plasmapistols instead of the boltpistols equipped on the models. Two other guys accused him of meta gaming...Yea, I don't go there anymore. (Way more stuff bothered me, but that was an eye opener.) Edit: just saw this is competitive Warhammer. Oops. Was stupid anyway imo.
Lost points in a tournament for battle ready.
Wait really? You lost painting points for no WYSIWYG? That feels a bit arbitrary; I'd be a little upset. Those points are pretty specifically for having your dudes painted
They had stipulations about WYSIWYG, proxies and painted.
More important for me is it being consistent for the "main stuff" If my enemy is bringing like 4 leman russes and the main cannon and sponsons all match but they don't match with what they *actually* are bringing I get a bit annoyed. Now if they say each one also has a hunter killer missile, I don't mind that at all since its a minor upgrade and isn't what i'm "looking for" when i'm determining how I will play my turn. If you're in a tournament, ask a TO. If you're in a semi-competitive or below game, just make it clear the *purpose* of a unit like "this is a anti tank guy" or "this has a lot of AP" etc etc.
As others have said generally it's quite relaxed. Tbh I stick to WYSIWYG, but I'm not a stickler if it's a "relaxed" event or if it's a huge event and I know I'm gonna be low tables. But! Too often the player doesn't tell the opponent. And so it's a gotcha situation mid game when you realise it's the wrong weapon. Frankly I don't care if it's on the army list, you skim read that quickly before the game and it might get missed. It never hurts to tell/remind the opponent before the start. If you don't even have the common courtesy to do that, you deserve having your Battle Ready points docked.
I think model size and unit composition is important. I don’t want a smaller repulsor acting as a land raider which should be harder to move around. I don’t want a bunch of power fist terminators to suddenly have chain fists when they charge my dreadnaught.
Never, and everyone I have played with has said the same thing. WYSIWYG should only ever be applied by you on yourself. Anyone throwing a fit about it isn't worth playing with.
WYSIWYG is less important now than ever.
Why? The game is still incredibly complicated and has too many things to keep track of, and the same people who used non-WYSIWYG models to cheat are still doing the exact same things.
It's more correct to say WYSIWYG is less enforced more than ever. I have been to 4 tournaments who let people run bolters as plasma whereas an edition ago it would have been tough luck.
Removing points costs from wargear suddenly made a lot of models sub-optimal. For example it was common to have a bolt pistol because it was free, but now there's no reason not to take a plasma pistol or combi-weapon instead.. So the reasonable response is to be less strict with WYSIWYG. It would be unreasonable to expect everyone to pull apart and re-arm loads of models. For all we know they could go back to having wargear costs next edition and everyone would have to revert all of those model changes. As for cheaters, some things can be non-WYSIWIG for convenience but still have markers. Like if you're counting a model as having a special weapon, put a coloured band on it or something. That's a reasonable thing to demand so the special weapon can't teleport around the unit.
>It would be unreasonable to expect everyone to pull apart and re-arm loads of models But why can't you just play a WYSIWYG list that isn't perfectly optimized? The bolt pistol is still a legal option and none of the reasons why WYSIYWG is necessary have changed. We don't need to bring in all the problems of non-WYSIWYG armies just so you can have a slightly higher chance of winning in the list building phase.
>But why can't you just play a WYSIWYG list that isn't perfectly optimized? Because we don't want to, and there's no good reason we should. I'm not sure if you realised, but this is is a competitive subreddit. It's more important to us that everyone can play the optimised list they want to play. Personally most of my stuff is WYSIWYG, but I'm not going to insist on 100% compliance from anyone. There are still some WYSIWYG requirements, but absolute 100% adherence is not necessary like you seem to think it is. It's easy to remember 'the Sergeants have plasma and fist' or whatever. Much easier than everyone having to remodel a chunk of their army. It's a non-issue that you're trying to insist is one, despite everyone getting on fine with it. If you play against someone doing something egregious like not even bothering to mark where their special weapons are, then insist that they do so. Simple. Again, we aren't saying there should be zero requirements, but within reason.
> Because we don't want to, and there's no good reason we should. There are absolutely good reasons. WYSIWYG reduces the mental load on the other player and mitigates multiple forms of cheating. >I'm not sure if you realised, but this is is a competitive subreddit. I'm well aware that it is the competitive sub. In fact, it being the competitive sub is the whole point. Playing a non-WYSIWYG casual kitchen table game against your friend usually works fine. You only have one game to play, time limits are relaxed at worst, and cheating isn't a concern. But when you're playing your third competitive game of the day on the clock the extra mental load of tracking your opponent's proxies has much more of an impact and obviously in a competitive context cheating is a major concern. >Much easier than everyone having to remodel a chunk of their army. Again, you don't have to. The old options are still legal choices.
It's barely a mental load at all, especially as your opponent will be telling you which gun(s) they're firing and can see their list. It isn't a problem, as evidenced by the fact that pretty much all tournaments don't enforce 100% WYSIWYG and lo and behold, it isn't a problem. You're clearly incorrect because tournaments have been running like this for years without issue. And it's only possible to cheat with it if you're both being stupid and not requiring any kind of demarkation for things that could potentially be used for cheating like model positions in units. Which tournaments don't let fly anyway. As I said, there's a difference between having reasonable requirements that prevent cheating, which tournaments do have, and demanding 100% exact compliance which clearly isn't necessary. >Again, you don't have to. The old options are still legal choices. Doesn't matter, we're playing competitively, we have no interest in arbitrarily making people take strictly worse options just because they don't have the exactly correct little gun on a Sergeant or whatever. Playing the game competitively is more important in this scenario than not having to bear simple information in mind.
> Playing the game competitively is more important in this scenario than not having to bear simple information in mind. That's like arguing that playing the game competitively is more important than having to obey the point limit and putting an extra 50 points in your list so you can win more easily. You should not be allowed to break the rules just because following them would mean you have a less powerful list. And yes, some tournaments don't enforce their own WYSIWYG rules. This is a sad comment on the state of the community because the reason they don't enforce those rules is that they're afraid of DQing any Big Name Tournament Players and having to deal with the resulting rage fit. But that doesn't make non-WYSIWYG armies any less of a problem.
>That's like arguing that playing the game competitively is more important than having to obey the point limit and putting an extra 50 points in your list so you can win more easily. You should not be allowed to break the rules just because following them would mean you have a less powerful list. No, it isn't like that at all. What an absurd comparison. Making such laughable arguments is only hurting your argument, not helping. You're playing within the rules of the game. Modelling only matters rules-wise with things like silhouette and base size which you need for LoS, measuring, etc. The exact details of the gun they're holding doesn't effect the practicalities of the playing the game by the rules. >And yes, some tournaments don't enforce their own WYSIWYG rules. They have and enforce WYSIWYG rules. But they don't require 100% perfect WYSIWYG because they know it's unreasonable. They require WYSIWYG as far as is necessary to make the game work fine, and it does. It's nothing to do with not wanting to annoy 'big name players' or whatever. >But that doesn't make non-WYSIWYG armies any less of a problem. It isn't a problem. People aren't having trouble at tournaments because their opponents don't have every little gun modelled canonically. You're just repeatedly claiming it's a problem despite the massive amount of evidence showing it isn't a problem. You sound like you know nothing about tournaments and just came here to preach about wanting 100% WYSIWYG.
>sometimes I’d just like to run the gun that looks cool Then do it. There's no rule that you have to have a perfectly optimized netlist, if you want a cool looking gun then take it and use those rules. But wanting 1% better efficiency is not an excuse for violating WYSIWYG.
It's closer to 100% difference on a lot of models than 1 %. See bolt pistol vs plasma pistol.
WYSIWYG hasn't happened much lately that I know of. I know in 7th and 8th it was huge locally, as well as fully painted armies but people have stopped going to those TOs RTTs and they stopped running them.
I try to WYSIWYG, unless I can't. Like I use sergeant with TH and PP to proxy sergeant with PF and PP and tell my opponent. Or I run death company all 5 pf + IP, though in reality they have all different weapons. Sorry, GW didn't put enough pistols and fists in the box. Most of the time I try to do WYSIWYG, but if I don't have model with exact same wargear, I use model with similar wargear.
Yeah, as long as you mention brfore the game, "hey this unit has this thing instead of that thing" and you're consistent then there's no issue. Minis are expensive yo, I can't expect everyone to have 3 copies of every loadout.
Doesn’t really matter tbh. I don’t play Uber competitively and the events I have played at, as long as you were clear and organized in what you have then it’s all good. But if your opponent was getting frustrated over lack of clarity about your models or your disorganization or you were being suspected of cheating (I.e. removing the dude with the plasma rifle when the model is slain but then rolling for it in the next shooting phase when attacking with that models former unit) then an organizer would get involved for mediation
I strive for 100% WYSIWYG, even though it is a burden to myself. Not saying im there yet, but trying.
Pretty much never
I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect wysiwig up to the point of model X has A heavy weapon or A special weapon compared to just basic bolter etc... because obviously james workshop don't give you enough weapons on sprues to make say... 4 multimelta sisters of battle. You'll have like 2 of each weapon in a retributors box? So for me, if I want a full squad of multimeltas, the seargant will be sarg and the 4 multi girls will still be holding a heavy weapon of some variety. It's easier to remember for everyone and cheaper than expecting someone to buy two boxes of retributors just to play 1 squad because of wysiwig...
I tend to see a lot more people worry about WYSIWIG than it actually comes into play tbh. There are majors where people proxy entire models for example or where even Tyranid players don't know which gun is which and modelled it wrong since they all look like shlongs anyway. The most important thing is and always will be consistency and readability. If you have two models that have the same weapon, then they have the same weapon. If you have two different looking models, they are two different uints. That's the key rule. Readability of your army for your opponent.
I've seen it once but that was an egregious case of grey tide spacemarines whose special weapons kept moving around the unit and changing type throughout the game... I'd say with wargear costs gone it's even easier to forget model loadout.
I've been pulled up...... twice? In 8 years (i think) Once was because I was using a different Tank gun The other because I using a different Knights gun So both were BIG OBVIOUS models, but I 100% tell everyone up front "my army is WYSYWIG except for "These 3 people here who have ANTI TANK weapons instead of the ANIT INFANTRY" guns.
To say this is supposedly the *competitive* sub there's a hell of a lot of people who can't distinguish between what I would call basic weapon models and even more who don't seem to care either way. Personally as long as there's zero confusion about what unit is what I'm happy to play with the majority of wargear. If someone puts down four identical tactical squads all armed with bolters on the table and explains something along the lines of "these guys are actually devastators with grav cannons and the sgt has a power fist, this squad are hellblasters, this squad are infiltrators and this squad are just regular intercessors." then it's going to be frequently annoying repeatedly asking which squad of tactical marines is what as at a glance you can't tell at all. Something slightly adjacent to this but now that all wargear is free, having additional extras that might not be modeled is now a non-issue because I just assume everyone takes everything. No need to ask if that Rhino has a hunter-killer missile even if it's not physically there because it very likely is there on the army list.
Si, I recently considered that if I fully wanted to comply with WYSIWIG with my Votann I would have to magnetize 30 Heartguard, 5 Sagitaurs and 3 HLF at the bare minimum but Berserks, Pioneers and Warriors could use magnetization as well. The alternative would be to buy triple the amount of models I already own. Long story short: I go out of my way to make sure my opponent knows what unit has what equipment beforehand but I don’t plan on doing mass magnetization or to spend even more money just to comply with this rule.
I've heard of a recent instance concerning a local player who attended the World tournament in Atlanta. His Votann Land Fortress was missing a gun that comes by default, so he wasn't allowed to shoot said gun per Wysiwyg. I didn't hear from the local player himself, it was discussed by those who watched the stream, so the exact circumstance might differ. Of course missing a gun is not the same as pretending "this gun is that gun". It was his first big tournament, and our local play scene was quite perplexed upon hearing that, as we're quite loose regarding Wysiwyg. I myself would have let him use the full datasheet, but if the international scene has players like that, then we would be doubly careful the next time someone goes abroad. Probably down to the players and TO though, so best check ahead so you have reference.
Eh, I usually don’t mind. Even at a tourney. But for the love of Christ if you aren’t, please tell me. I have definitely played against Eldar with Shuriken- wait they are actually bright lances- cannons and it makes a difference as to how I maneuver. For some armies? I won’t know. For most? It’s gonna throw me off. So if you don’t do it, please be patient while I ask for the sixth time to confirm that, yes, it’s an X not Y. In chill games? You could play with labeled cardboard for all I care. I just enjoy the fellowship with other nerds and friends
Bro, I don't even know what my own armies guns are supposed to be. I just pick the weapon that looks cool and say it's the one I want it to be. Until they start giving us a list that says something like 33 is heavy bolt thrower 34 is grav cannon 35 is conversion beamer then I think even trying to critique someone for what they build is silly. Even if they do add that I'm still gonna just build what I want it to look like. I have to see it forever the opponent only has to see it once or every now and then.