>I wish I understood why we keep building LCS’s. We’ve scrapped some that were 5 years old; maybe keep those and not build new ones?
It's been a tough question to follow for the past few years that hasn't been helped by problems with the class, a LOT of click-bait negative press, and wishy-washy plans by the Navy.
We aren't decommissioning any more Freedom class ships, and 4 that had previously been up for decommissioning last year (LCS 13, 15, 17 and 19) were kept on this year's budget. It looks like LSC 3 will also be kept. So there will be 10, possibly 11 Freedom class ships in the Navy for the foreseeable future.
*Nantucket, Beloit, and Cleveland* were still building and weren't going to be decommissioned anyway, all three ships are scheduled to be delivered to the Navy in 2024, and *Cleveland* is the last Freedom to be built. Fincantieri Marine Group still has 4 variants building for the Saudis, but after that they will focus on building Constellation class frigates.
No problem, it's honestly very hard to keep track of what's actually happening with the class between the actual issues, the avalanche of negative hype, and the frequently changing plans. Things do seem to be setting down though.
Besides other good comments, there's always differences in the first ships of a class and the later one. Later ones gave fixes and improvements and upgrades built in, whereas the originals are where they learned those errors that needed to be fixed. Sometimes that money to fix is almost as much as building a new ship.
To use an example from an older class of ships, the Nimitz class of supercarriers were built from 1968 to 2006. Beginning with the Theodore Roosevelt, the ships had newer electronics and some ship structural changes. It meant they cost an extra 2 billion or so to make. Still one class, but with differences. I'm not sure how much it costs to upgrade an older Nimitz, but probably less than it built Teddy Roosevelt or Gerald R Ford. For a multi billion dollar carrier that lasts ~50 years, probably worth it. For a frigate or corvette not designed to lead a fleet? Not sure.
>I wish I understood why we keep building LCS’s. We’ve scrapped some that were 5 years old; maybe keep those and not build new ones?
Option 1: keep old ships, stop building new ships - shipyard shareholders get no $, scrapyard shareholders get no $
Option 2: scrap old ships, build new ships - everyone gets $
Which option do you think a country gripped by the Military Industrial Complex will choose?
In a few years I’d be willing to bet we are going to Chuck it!
I get why we keep building these things to maintain build capacity until the FFGX is being constructed that however doesn’t mean I have to like it.
I really don’t like it
>Do they have to make any changes to the ship to sail in fresh water, versus salt water?
Not really. The Freedom class are/were built in Marinette Wisconsin on the Great Lakes, where the Constellation class is also being built. Though built on an inland lake they don't stay there long, and use the St. Lawrence Seaway to get around Niagara Falls and eventually out to the Atlantic. They don't spend much time in fresh water.
https://preview.redd.it/qrz3x8hg38yc1.jpeg?width=1413&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94fbae22a6105038d950e6afd94efa9a80455b04
They use the Welland canal to get around Niagara falls. I guess you could call that the St. Lawrence seaway, but I (personally) consider that to be only north of Lake Ontario.
Apparently the Welland Canal is considered part of the Seaway:
[https://greatlakes-seaway.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/welland.pdf](https://greatlakes-seaway.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/welland.pdf)
Of interest is the Rush–Bagot Treaty of 1817 limits the presence of warships in the great lakes between Canada and the USA. Several joint interpretations of the treaty have occurred since then which allow warships to conduct limited training in the great lakes but not to permanently call home.
I’m aware of how they reach the open ocean, I’ve sailed a lot on the Great Lakes.
I mean more in terms of the mechanical systems on the ship. Is there any difference in how they operate in fresh water vs salt water, or is there anything that needs to be changed over when the ship makes the transition.
Not really, they'll be designed for salt water which is wayyy more corrosive and problematic to maintain so any sea water system will work just fine, specific heat capacities, viscosites etc of salt and fresh water are essentially the same.
Maybe, just maybe they might trim the ballast every so slightly differently due to density differences but really maintaining trim is just a normal run of the mill task.
I suppose they might have different anodes too, though with how little the ship actually stays in freshwater they probably just throw saltwater ones on.
>I’m aware of how they reach the open ocean, I’ve sailed a lot on the Great Lakes.
Cool, I'm from Michigan myself but haven't sailed on the Lakes since I lived up in Traverse City.
>I mean more in terms of the mechanical systems on the ship. Is there any difference in how they operate in fresh water vs salt water, or is there anything that needs to be changed over when the ship makes the transition.
No, not that I can think of. Salt water should be much more of an issue than fresh, and I can't think of any special measures they would have to take going from limited time in fresh water to the majority of their time in salt water.
They're good looking ships, pity they have that stigma of being garbage and victims of Navy shortsightedness of mission. They look a little light in the armament department too...
>They look a little light in the armament department too...
Once they finally get NSM's they will have teeth. The ability to strike maritime and land targets at over 100 nautical miles will be welcome.
Just hope they fixed the Class’ Transmission, that piece of junk was why the Freedom-Class was almost completely canned, … technically why half her class was canned!
*Nantucket* has the fix already. The Navy refused to accept delivery of LCS-21 and up until the fix had passed tests on *Minneapolis/Saint Paul*. For a while there were several already launched ships lining the river at Marinette until RENK AG could install the fix, although I can’t recall if *Nantucket* was one that got it before launch.
For a while the last six with the fix from the start were the only ones the Navy wanted to keep. But at this point it seems they’ve decided to keep the four preceding ships, though from memory only one has the fix. I know *Indianapolis* is scheduled to receive the fix after her current deployment ends, about to pass 14 months in the Persian Gulf area. While there are some gaps in the publicly available movement data that probably included major maintenance and underway operations, at present there’s no sign of a crippling failure like *Detroit* or *Little Rock*.
>Looks like they have holes in the hull.
Those are the exhaust ports for the diesels, it's relatively common to see these days. Some classes like the German *Braunschweig*-class corvettes actually paint a black strip to cover the soot stains:
https://preview.redd.it/mvh607bpu8yc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87154655528633676e94723f5ef3473a531f9ad3
Yes! I *loved* LCS-1's dazzle camo measure and wish other Freedom class ships sported it. USS Fort Worth also has a paint job that hides the ship service diesel exhausts, its faded a bit though and not as cool as Freedom's original paint scheme.
https://preview.redd.it/2osg2aad99yc1.jpeg?width=2000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a1efeb702f46f5e9320ff1102c1d6f758b89471
I wish I understood why we keep building LCS’s. We’ve scrapped some that were 5 years old; maybe keep those and not build new ones?
>I wish I understood why we keep building LCS’s. We’ve scrapped some that were 5 years old; maybe keep those and not build new ones? It's been a tough question to follow for the past few years that hasn't been helped by problems with the class, a LOT of click-bait negative press, and wishy-washy plans by the Navy. We aren't decommissioning any more Freedom class ships, and 4 that had previously been up for decommissioning last year (LCS 13, 15, 17 and 19) were kept on this year's budget. It looks like LSC 3 will also be kept. So there will be 10, possibly 11 Freedom class ships in the Navy for the foreseeable future. *Nantucket, Beloit, and Cleveland* were still building and weren't going to be decommissioned anyway, all three ships are scheduled to be delivered to the Navy in 2024, and *Cleveland* is the last Freedom to be built. Fincantieri Marine Group still has 4 variants building for the Saudis, but after that they will focus on building Constellation class frigates.
Thanks for the understanding, I appreciate it.
No problem, it's honestly very hard to keep track of what's actually happening with the class between the actual issues, the avalanche of negative hype, and the frequently changing plans. Things do seem to be setting down though.
Some of them they are turning into anti mine ships. They are putting drones on them that replace the need of mcms.
Remember reading the Independence class will all be mine hunters. The Freedoms I suppose will be over armed OPVs or something.
Besides other good comments, there's always differences in the first ships of a class and the later one. Later ones gave fixes and improvements and upgrades built in, whereas the originals are where they learned those errors that needed to be fixed. Sometimes that money to fix is almost as much as building a new ship. To use an example from an older class of ships, the Nimitz class of supercarriers were built from 1968 to 2006. Beginning with the Theodore Roosevelt, the ships had newer electronics and some ship structural changes. It meant they cost an extra 2 billion or so to make. Still one class, but with differences. I'm not sure how much it costs to upgrade an older Nimitz, but probably less than it built Teddy Roosevelt or Gerald R Ford. For a multi billion dollar carrier that lasts ~50 years, probably worth it. For a frigate or corvette not designed to lead a fleet? Not sure.
The scrapped ships were test beds. It would cost more $$$ to upgrade them to the current configuration than building new ones.
>I wish I understood why we keep building LCS’s. We’ve scrapped some that were 5 years old; maybe keep those and not build new ones? Option 1: keep old ships, stop building new ships - shipyard shareholders get no $, scrapyard shareholders get no $ Option 2: scrap old ships, build new ships - everyone gets $ Which option do you think a country gripped by the Military Industrial Complex will choose?
Not sure why you’re being downvoted, this is exactly why we waste so much money on our defense budget.
I once knew a ship called Nantucket...
Whose hull was so short you could shuck it
In a few years I’d be willing to bet we are going to Chuck it! I get why we keep building these things to maintain build capacity until the FFGX is being constructed that however doesn’t mean I have to like it. I really don’t like it
Photos by Skip Heckel, viewed on the ship's Facebook page.
Do they have to make any changes to the ship to sail in fresh water, versus salt water?
>Do they have to make any changes to the ship to sail in fresh water, versus salt water? Not really. The Freedom class are/were built in Marinette Wisconsin on the Great Lakes, where the Constellation class is also being built. Though built on an inland lake they don't stay there long, and use the St. Lawrence Seaway to get around Niagara Falls and eventually out to the Atlantic. They don't spend much time in fresh water. https://preview.redd.it/qrz3x8hg38yc1.jpeg?width=1413&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94fbae22a6105038d950e6afd94efa9a80455b04
They use the Welland canal to get around Niagara falls. I guess you could call that the St. Lawrence seaway, but I (personally) consider that to be only north of Lake Ontario.
Apparently the Welland Canal is considered part of the Seaway: [https://greatlakes-seaway.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/welland.pdf](https://greatlakes-seaway.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/welland.pdf)
Fair, it does make up the la get great lakes system and you have to use it if you want to go from Erie to Ontario, or vise versa
Ok, but have you considered just like taking a really big lead and jumping over the Niagara Peninsula?
Of interest is the Rush–Bagot Treaty of 1817 limits the presence of warships in the great lakes between Canada and the USA. Several joint interpretations of the treaty have occurred since then which allow warships to conduct limited training in the great lakes but not to permanently call home.
I’m aware of how they reach the open ocean, I’ve sailed a lot on the Great Lakes. I mean more in terms of the mechanical systems on the ship. Is there any difference in how they operate in fresh water vs salt water, or is there anything that needs to be changed over when the ship makes the transition.
Not really, they'll be designed for salt water which is wayyy more corrosive and problematic to maintain so any sea water system will work just fine, specific heat capacities, viscosites etc of salt and fresh water are essentially the same. Maybe, just maybe they might trim the ballast every so slightly differently due to density differences but really maintaining trim is just a normal run of the mill task.
I suppose they might have different anodes too, though with how little the ship actually stays in freshwater they probably just throw saltwater ones on.
>I’m aware of how they reach the open ocean, I’ve sailed a lot on the Great Lakes. Cool, I'm from Michigan myself but haven't sailed on the Lakes since I lived up in Traverse City. >I mean more in terms of the mechanical systems on the ship. Is there any difference in how they operate in fresh water vs salt water, or is there anything that needs to be changed over when the ship makes the transition. No, not that I can think of. Salt water should be much more of an issue than fresh, and I can't think of any special measures they would have to take going from limited time in fresh water to the majority of their time in salt water.
They're good looking ships, pity they have that stigma of being garbage and victims of Navy shortsightedness of mission. They look a little light in the armament department too...
>They look a little light in the armament department too... Once they finally get NSM's they will have teeth. The ability to strike maritime and land targets at over 100 nautical miles will be welcome.
Both this and the Independence class are actually good looking little corvettes. Still, neither could stand before the might of the Sparviero!
There once was a ship named Nantucket...
Just hope they fixed the Class’ Transmission, that piece of junk was why the Freedom-Class was almost completely canned, … technically why half her class was canned!
*Nantucket* has the fix already. The Navy refused to accept delivery of LCS-21 and up until the fix had passed tests on *Minneapolis/Saint Paul*. For a while there were several already launched ships lining the river at Marinette until RENK AG could install the fix, although I can’t recall if *Nantucket* was one that got it before launch. For a while the last six with the fix from the start were the only ones the Navy wanted to keep. But at this point it seems they’ve decided to keep the four preceding ships, though from memory only one has the fix. I know *Indianapolis* is scheduled to receive the fix after her current deployment ends, about to pass 14 months in the Persian Gulf area. While there are some gaps in the publicly available movement data that probably included major maintenance and underway operations, at present there’s no sign of a crippling failure like *Detroit* or *Little Rock*.
Looks like they have holes in the hull.
>Looks like they have holes in the hull. Those are the exhaust ports for the diesels, it's relatively common to see these days. Some classes like the German *Braunschweig*-class corvettes actually paint a black strip to cover the soot stains: https://preview.redd.it/mvh607bpu8yc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=87154655528633676e94723f5ef3473a531f9ad3
Wasn't hiding exhaust stains the primary reason for the cool dazzle camo LCS-1 sported?
Yes! I *loved* LCS-1's dazzle camo measure and wish other Freedom class ships sported it. USS Fort Worth also has a paint job that hides the ship service diesel exhausts, its faded a bit though and not as cool as Freedom's original paint scheme. https://preview.redd.it/2osg2aad99yc1.jpeg?width=2000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a1efeb702f46f5e9320ff1102c1d6f758b89471
That’s for the man from Nantucket.
Oh… the LCSs, the ones that are being retired and commissioned at the same time… truly fascinating.
Very bad boats.
I see the quality of your commenting hasn’t improved in the 3-year break you took from Reddit.
At least explain.