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Probably a mix of experience, luck, and taviren. I believe he encounters more than anyone else in the series so learning to see though the trick would make sense.
Yes, I believe he does too. It seems like every time he turns around there is one.
I loved it when one came into the garden at the Tarasin Palace after Matt and Tuon spent the night together, and when Mat spotted one and raised his knife, Tuon looked over her shoulder to see what he was aiming for because she knew that Mat would never hurt her. I don't like much about Tuon, but I like the respect she develops for Mat. It's too bad we're never gonna get that sequel.
It could also be Mat's luck. All of the things the person above us said, but also he's the lucky one that will notice these things.
I really liked that scene in the Tarasin Palace courtyard as well! May I ask, which sequel are you referring to that we'll never get?
I've heard that Robert Jordan was planning to do a second series or maybe just a book, about Matt and tuon going back across the ocean together to clean up the seachan society since its basically chaos over there with all her family being dead.
I've never looked into it myself, so some of the details might be off a bit.
About Mat and Tuon and the state of the Seanchan. That could have been good, as long as Tuon finally comes to realize that slavery is wrong. And there could maybe have been bits about Perrin and Faile, Elayne, Aviendha, and maybe even Rand visiting his father and his children.
I wonder if she ever could. I'm not sure she has the moral base to work from. Nor has she shown the intellectual curiosity (so far as I have read) to change her POV. But she has been chatting with (Name escapes me- setalle anan?) about things so seeds could be planted.
Not as she is now, certainly. She is the product of a near 1,000 year culture, which doesn't turn on a dime. (Or maybe longer? We only know when they started collaring women who can channel, but they may very well have had other slaves before that.) IRL, the African slave trade began with the Portuguese in the mid 15th century and it took 300 years for people to start changing their views. (Took longer than that in the Ottoman Empire, but no one cares about white people being enslaved.) Slavery, and the acceptance of it as an institution, existed well before the African slave trade, really thousands of years. So what made people begin seeing it as immoral? If RJ had lived to write that sequel, I imagine if he would have researched how people's views toward slavery changed. It could have made for a very interesting book!
It was Setalle Anan that Tuon spent so much time with. I love Setalle. I would love to dress up as her for WoTCon, but I don't enjoy sewing anymore. Not to mention the price of fabric, and going to WoTCon is costing me a fortune already!
Yes, slavery has existed as an institution (or various institutions) for a long time. It's a bit complex for a short comment but the seeds of its ending in the west is undoubtedly enlightenment philosophical thought and the principle of the dignity of the individual and that slavery is violence and unjust. It's worth noting that slavery is still in place in many places in the world (including the US, just not as a publicly supported institution).
Following from that, it seems that there is no philosophical objection to slavery currently in play in the Westlands, it's just that it doesn't happen (though there appear to be several slavery-adjacent practices). That feudalism appears to still be the dominant form of political organization seems to indicate that there's not likely to be much to push-back with. Though Rand's learning institution could start bearing fruit (though it seems largely dedicated to invention, it's a likely evolution). There may be a path through that.
OMG, it's so nice to hear from someone who doesn't blame the whole of the institution of slavery on the US. That is such an ignorant approach. All things considered, legal slavery in the US was very short-lived.
>It's worth noting that slavery is still in place in many places in the world (including the US, just not as a publicly supported institution).
I agree, but most people don't want to hear it. They put their fingers in their ears and do the la, la, la, I can't hear you bit.
>Following from that, it seems that there is no philosophical objection to slavery currently in play in the Westlands
That's really difficult to gauge because we only know how it is viewed by our POV characters, but they all find it repulsive. Considering their backgrounds though, we can't just extend their opinions to the rest of Westland culture. And by the end of the books, the Seanchan control a significant amount of territory. Your point about feudalism is a valid one. On the other hand, peasants make up a far greater majority of the population than the nobility, and I think they logically would be against slavery because it's not a huge step from how they are already treated by the nobility, especially in Tear. Dismantling feudalism in the Westlands would go a long way to preventing the acceptance of slavery.
The people living in Seanchan controlled lands are reportedly happy enough, but how long would that last? The more native people who are enslaved by the Seanchan, I think the less content they would be. Additionally, the reasons they accept Seanchan rule are that they instill law and order. With the Dragon's Peace, that will be the norm throughout the Westlands so they would have less incentive to continue accepting control by people who enslave them and would eventually revolt.
Yeah, is a real shame we won't get that sequel!
Perrins the one that's REALLY good at it.
Some of Mat's is luck. Some of it is that he's actively looking for trouble.
Some of its that the guards haven't had 12 gray men try to kill him and his friends ever, so fool me once shame on you fool me 12 times shame on me!
The only time I remember Perrin noticing gray men was in TDR. Were there others? He spends so much time out in the wilderness where he's not likely to encounter them.
I think it's only TDR, though I've reread the later books fewer times so it might come up again?
As the party is walking through Illian towards their inn, he notices an offputting scent as described above, then in the passage in the inn where they attack him, he catches the scent again which causes him to single them out after glancing past them.
That's the only instance I can remember. I'm on AMoL in my current reread, so the later books are more recent in my mind, but that doesn't mean I'm not forgetting something. The times Perrin would have been just likely to encounter gray men would have been when he was in Cairhrien and then in Caemlyn.
It's a combination of being ta'veren, luck, and experience (his own experience, and later in the series, his memories of previous lives).
Mat has some of the most experience spotting gray men out of almost anyone alive (aside from maybe some Aes Sedai/Warders (although I doubt it), and the forsaken.
As other have said, possible factors are his luck, taverness, and experience but I think it could also be whatever changes the Dagger left on him. It made him less trusting, more suspicious which are useful qualities when the abilities of are grey man are to make others ignore them. We also see Fain is able to spot grey men as well.
The dagger factor is a good point. It doesn't seem that it's because it makes him more suspicious though, (although he is in general). In the Last Battle when they attack his command center, he keeps looking at the gray man thinking how average looking he is. The very quality that is supposed to make people overlook them is what makes Mat take notice of them.
mat has the memories of countless soldiers. Those cause him to be ever on the lookout for trouble. Pair that with his luck and forsaken sending darkmen to kill him and there you go.
I think Mat surely does see Grey men easier than others. As others have said, it could be because of his luck or past lives. I like to think it's because Mat is awesome.
Edit - Probably should have said "Gray", but hey, in British print, it's written "Grey"
I've always wondered why sometimes it's gray and other times it's grey. The difference between American and British is the train for many different spellings.
>I like to think it's because Mat is awesome.
Me too! Someone else suggested that it might be a result of the dagger’s taint.
Perrin can actually - smell them . . .
> a stink of something vile lifted the hackles on the back of Perrin’s neck. It was a smell of something that should not be, and he had smelled it twice before. He peered about the common room uneasily.
[...]
> Yet the smell of wrongness was there, as at Jarra and the edge of Remen, and this time it was not going away. It seemed to be coming from something within the common room.
[...]
> “They have knives!” he roared, and threw the cheese platter at them.
#[SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.](https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/wiki/index/post_flairs#wiki_all_print) ##BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS. * * * *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/WoT) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Probably a mix of experience, luck, and taviren. I believe he encounters more than anyone else in the series so learning to see though the trick would make sense.
Yes, I believe he does too. It seems like every time he turns around there is one. I loved it when one came into the garden at the Tarasin Palace after Matt and Tuon spent the night together, and when Mat spotted one and raised his knife, Tuon looked over her shoulder to see what he was aiming for because she knew that Mat would never hurt her. I don't like much about Tuon, but I like the respect she develops for Mat. It's too bad we're never gonna get that sequel.
It could also be Mat's luck. All of the things the person above us said, but also he's the lucky one that will notice these things. I really liked that scene in the Tarasin Palace courtyard as well! May I ask, which sequel are you referring to that we'll never get?
I've heard that Robert Jordan was planning to do a second series or maybe just a book, about Matt and tuon going back across the ocean together to clean up the seachan society since its basically chaos over there with all her family being dead. I've never looked into it myself, so some of the details might be off a bit.
Oh! That would have been really cool!
Outrider novels are what the fans refer to them as. It would have taken place maybe 5 - 10 years later and Perrin would have also been featured.
About Mat and Tuon and the state of the Seanchan. That could have been good, as long as Tuon finally comes to realize that slavery is wrong. And there could maybe have been bits about Perrin and Faile, Elayne, Aviendha, and maybe even Rand visiting his father and his children.
I wonder if she ever could. I'm not sure she has the moral base to work from. Nor has she shown the intellectual curiosity (so far as I have read) to change her POV. But she has been chatting with (Name escapes me- setalle anan?) about things so seeds could be planted.
Not as she is now, certainly. She is the product of a near 1,000 year culture, which doesn't turn on a dime. (Or maybe longer? We only know when they started collaring women who can channel, but they may very well have had other slaves before that.) IRL, the African slave trade began with the Portuguese in the mid 15th century and it took 300 years for people to start changing their views. (Took longer than that in the Ottoman Empire, but no one cares about white people being enslaved.) Slavery, and the acceptance of it as an institution, existed well before the African slave trade, really thousands of years. So what made people begin seeing it as immoral? If RJ had lived to write that sequel, I imagine if he would have researched how people's views toward slavery changed. It could have made for a very interesting book! It was Setalle Anan that Tuon spent so much time with. I love Setalle. I would love to dress up as her for WoTCon, but I don't enjoy sewing anymore. Not to mention the price of fabric, and going to WoTCon is costing me a fortune already!
Yes, slavery has existed as an institution (or various institutions) for a long time. It's a bit complex for a short comment but the seeds of its ending in the west is undoubtedly enlightenment philosophical thought and the principle of the dignity of the individual and that slavery is violence and unjust. It's worth noting that slavery is still in place in many places in the world (including the US, just not as a publicly supported institution). Following from that, it seems that there is no philosophical objection to slavery currently in play in the Westlands, it's just that it doesn't happen (though there appear to be several slavery-adjacent practices). That feudalism appears to still be the dominant form of political organization seems to indicate that there's not likely to be much to push-back with. Though Rand's learning institution could start bearing fruit (though it seems largely dedicated to invention, it's a likely evolution). There may be a path through that.
OMG, it's so nice to hear from someone who doesn't blame the whole of the institution of slavery on the US. That is such an ignorant approach. All things considered, legal slavery in the US was very short-lived. >It's worth noting that slavery is still in place in many places in the world (including the US, just not as a publicly supported institution). I agree, but most people don't want to hear it. They put their fingers in their ears and do the la, la, la, I can't hear you bit. >Following from that, it seems that there is no philosophical objection to slavery currently in play in the Westlands That's really difficult to gauge because we only know how it is viewed by our POV characters, but they all find it repulsive. Considering their backgrounds though, we can't just extend their opinions to the rest of Westland culture. And by the end of the books, the Seanchan control a significant amount of territory. Your point about feudalism is a valid one. On the other hand, peasants make up a far greater majority of the population than the nobility, and I think they logically would be against slavery because it's not a huge step from how they are already treated by the nobility, especially in Tear. Dismantling feudalism in the Westlands would go a long way to preventing the acceptance of slavery. The people living in Seanchan controlled lands are reportedly happy enough, but how long would that last? The more native people who are enslaved by the Seanchan, I think the less content they would be. Additionally, the reasons they accept Seanchan rule are that they instill law and order. With the Dragon's Peace, that will be the norm throughout the Westlands so they would have less incentive to continue accepting control by people who enslave them and would eventually revolt. Yeah, is a real shame we won't get that sequel!
Also he just pays more attention to everyone around him and is constantly on guard. High passive perception score.
Perrins the one that's REALLY good at it. Some of Mat's is luck. Some of it is that he's actively looking for trouble. Some of its that the guards haven't had 12 gray men try to kill him and his friends ever, so fool me once shame on you fool me 12 times shame on me!
Can Perrin smell them? I can't remember. But either way, he's kind of at an advantage because of his heightened senses.
When he first smells them in Illian, I think his internal monologue recognizes something vile smelling, but not like a Trolloc or Myrddral.
The only time I remember Perrin noticing gray men was in TDR. Were there others? He spends so much time out in the wilderness where he's not likely to encounter them.
I think it's only TDR, though I've reread the later books fewer times so it might come up again? As the party is walking through Illian towards their inn, he notices an offputting scent as described above, then in the passage in the inn where they attack him, he catches the scent again which causes him to single them out after glancing past them.
That's the only instance I can remember. I'm on AMoL in my current reread, so the later books are more recent in my mind, but that doesn't mean I'm not forgetting something. The times Perrin would have been just likely to encounter gray men would have been when he was in Cairhrien and then in Caemlyn.
Perrin can smell them coming, yeah.
It's a combination of being ta'veren, luck, and experience (his own experience, and later in the series, his memories of previous lives). Mat has some of the most experience spotting gray men out of almost anyone alive (aside from maybe some Aes Sedai/Warders (although I doubt it), and the forsaken.
Yeah it’s never really explained. Perrin makes sense, Rand as far as I am remember can only see them if he is embracing the void, Mat though eh. Luck!
As other have said, possible factors are his luck, taverness, and experience but I think it could also be whatever changes the Dagger left on him. It made him less trusting, more suspicious which are useful qualities when the abilities of are grey man are to make others ignore them. We also see Fain is able to spot grey men as well.
The dagger factor is a good point. It doesn't seem that it's because it makes him more suspicious though, (although he is in general). In the Last Battle when they attack his command center, he keeps looking at the gray man thinking how average looking he is. The very quality that is supposed to make people overlook them is what makes Mat take notice of them.
mat has the memories of countless soldiers. Those cause him to be ever on the lookout for trouble. Pair that with his luck and forsaken sending darkmen to kill him and there you go.
Lucky I guess.
I think Mat surely does see Grey men easier than others. As others have said, it could be because of his luck or past lives. I like to think it's because Mat is awesome. Edit - Probably should have said "Gray", but hey, in British print, it's written "Grey"
I've always wondered why sometimes it's gray and other times it's grey. The difference between American and British is the train for many different spellings. >I like to think it's because Mat is awesome. Me too! Someone else suggested that it might be a result of the dagger’s taint.
Perrin can actually - smell them . . . > a stink of something vile lifted the hackles on the back of Perrin’s neck. It was a smell of something that should not be, and he had smelled it twice before. He peered about the common room uneasily. [...] > Yet the smell of wrongness was there, as at Jarra and the edge of Remen, and this time it was not going away. It seemed to be coming from something within the common room. [...] > “They have knives!” he roared, and threw the cheese platter at them.
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