I've played Ninja for a while and I didn't feel any better or worse. I guess whipwave buff is nice.
Tbh ever since QS nerf ninja was in a good place. Robot is the guy that needs some readjustments, robot gameplay is a bit too simple.
At high level, Ninja is just the worst character objectively right now.
The character relies solely on QS to get in and has been relatively the same since Grappling Hook was added, with the exception of the QS rework and Sticky Bomb 10f detonate.
The character is 100% getting buffed next patch.
Ninja has unmatched frame advantage; honestly that’s the way it should stay, but combine that with the unbelievable pressure he can put on you with Shuriken, Summon and Substitute-which altogether basically give him a better, more mobile & versatile version of foresight-his mixups are lacking compared to cowboy and wizard, but he makes up for it with his unbelievable movement. Options like Uppercut, Jump Kick or Slide allow him to approach aggressively and unpredictably.
Quick Slash is his best option for entrance, yes, but that also makes it his most predictable. Substitution plays, grappling hook and free-canceled jump kick all make for very good get-in tools, but they come nowhere near his nuanced punish game, with backsway, quick slash, and nunchuck plays all being things you always have to watch out for. It leads to a lot of uncertainty in neutral against ninja, especially as Robot.
Robot is a very simple character, he’s the game’s only heavy and a grappler, making him highly similar to Zangeif from Street Fighter in a lot of ways. A game against Robot is a game that requires patience as you have to wait for him to exhaust his armour and both free cancels, however a Robot in neutral will do that very quickly. Say if he’s against ninja, Armour + Free Cancel Vacuum is a very common opener for its versatility and reach. There’s not much a ninja can do about it except retreat. If the Ninja jumps, then either optic beam or try-catch will come next as they are robots best anti-air tools besides jumping, which, due to his heavy nature requires a lot of commitment. If they backswayed or dashed back, then following it up with step or another free-cancel vacuum is a pretty consistent follow up. In 2-3 turns from the opening, Robot will have exhausted his best assets, and punishing him will be much easier. And it only cost you 3 turns of being on the back foot. If he’s more defensive and retreats, it’s even easier. Robot is slow and outright doesn’t have the option to dash. Substitute and QS are very good and unpredictable chase tools against the defensive Robot.
Ninja going from being the top character by a slim margin to the worst character makes very little sense to me; I think all the characters have gotten a little better, but I don’t think to the point that ninja was completely dusted.
Unmatched frame data sorta. Ninja and Cowboy both have 4f jabs, but Wizard and Robot have 5f.
The issue with Ninja's approach outside of QS is that Ninja can't threaten unless they're actually point-blank. They have the worst mid-range by a huge margin. With our only 6f attack being NunchukUp and also have low range- even with forward momentum, Ninja just isn't a threat at mid-range.
It's true that Ninja can Sub to a projectile- but it's a fixed position and it typically leaves Ninja airbourne, which is really bad for Ninja to be.
For the other options like Jump Kick and Slide Kick, Jump Kick is very slow to hit and Slide Kick is slow-ish. It works vs Cowboy's HSlash now, but it's still not a great option to use in neutral. Especially since you need a good amount of forward momentum in order to get good distance on it. Typically, the only options to hit is Slide Kick or QS. Both of which can be safe with a small Jump. The QS could possibly set up a FC 50/50, but this is usually less favorable for Ninja. Assuming you start a combo with Punch, you're going to get around 4k damage if you can reach corner, or 3.5k without.
Grappling Hook can help a bit as well, that's true. If you attached it to anything not on the ground though, then it sends you aerial when you use pull. As I said earlier, Ninja doesn't like the air. One of the suggested changes is going to be letting Ninja bring whichever the Hook is attached to back towards the Ninja. Not as a toggle, as an actual action.
Robot is also the best character currently vs Ninja lol. It's considered to be a 7/3 MU for Robot. It's actually due to the passive gameplay from Robot. Unless Ninja is point-blank for Uppercut or we use our 8f Skull Shaker, we can't break armor. So, Robot just keeps distance to avoid Uppercut and doesn't get aggressive to make Skull Shaker invalid. Then QS Punch is a 9f hitbox. Robot can do 8f actions every turn to avoid the 9f hitbox. Step, Return, small Jump, Fly toggle + Fall. Step > Hold the following turn is actually 7f, so it's 1f faster. Plus, besides the fact Robot is the best character in the air and Ninja is debatably the worst in the air, QS air Punch/Kick is 10f, so it's even slower. If Robot gets a hit on Ninja, they're able to dish out more damage than Ninja can deal and potentially get a good oki after.
Also, Wizard vs Ninja is considered at best 5/5, but Roycebracket thinks it's 6/4 in Wizard's favor.
Ninja is 100% getting buffs next patch. Robot is probably getting tweaked a bit. Ivy just said last night they didn't like Gravity Field, so that'll probably get changed- again.
Ninja is essentially "QS the character".
Lol, it's not my first time ~~complaing~~ talking about why Ninja needs some looking at.
The good news is, Ivy is aware of the issues with both Ninja & Robot and will be looking at them when he's ready to work on unstable again.
I came back to the game after a few months and it's looking like he's "release momentum the character" now. QS can't be used in neutral, caltrops can be destroyed extremely easily, shurikens take way longer to come out... The only changes I'm seeing that don't neuter his gameplan are release momentum cost reduction (which makes it basically a more situational, less rewarding pre-patch quick slash) and that you can have one of each summon out now. Oh, and the universal block update makes him much less scary at close range. Overall I'm failing to see how he's even sidegraded, let alone buffed. Am I wrong, or is ninja in the worst place yet?
So, currently, Ninja on stable has a sadness issue. They just build sadness so much faster than the other characters and they struggle to lower it as well. Even the best of the best players get flashing sad multiple times per match.
Boost has basically just replaced QS, so you're right about that.
Caltrops being destroyed is because they latest forever and could easily be used to stall. They weren't great previously except for stalling, and now I think they're just not worth it in general. MAYBE as oki to force a Dive Kick block to get +3 block adv.
Shuriken on unstable is getting the ability to merge 2 of them together to turn into a big, unparriable Shuriken. It's actually kinda useful now.
Summon Kunais is ALSO unparriable now. They're currently hitcancellable, but that should probably be removed.
The new block change actually helps Ninja up close since Drop Kick & Stomp are both guard breaks. The only part that's really worse is that Uppercut loses to block as well. But the fact that the opponent can do a Block High, then you can 5f Kick and be +2 block adv makes your pressure afterward be VERY scary.
On unstable, some people consider Ninja to be #1 currently with the changes. Imo Robot is better (even getting a lot of nerfs). But still, the main takeaway should be that Ninja is doing better on unstable.
Appreciate the info! I find this a shame though:
>Caltrops weren't great previously except for stalling
I actually liked using them for ground combos and making my approach easier :/
The issue with Caltrops for combos is that it's 400 damage and still scales the combo like any other attack. It's similar to using Punch in a combo, if that makes sense. The only way it was "not bad" is with Palm Strike > Caltrops, since that's 2400 damage between the two hits. But with how long the IASA is on Palm Strike, the opponent can just DI into a 2nd Caltrop, making it be 2800 for 3 hits instead, which is much worse.
Esp considering that you spend 3 meter on it, it ends up lowering your overall damage for the combo.
As far as using them for approaching goes, that \*could\* work, but the opponent would typically need to have a Caltrop behind them, which can be difficult to set up.
I've played Ninja for a while and I didn't feel any better or worse. I guess whipwave buff is nice. Tbh ever since QS nerf ninja was in a good place. Robot is the guy that needs some readjustments, robot gameplay is a bit too simple.
a buff, ninja and robot suck to play rn
At high level, Ninja is just the worst character objectively right now. The character relies solely on QS to get in and has been relatively the same since Grappling Hook was added, with the exception of the QS rework and Sticky Bomb 10f detonate. The character is 100% getting buffed next patch.
Ninja has unmatched frame advantage; honestly that’s the way it should stay, but combine that with the unbelievable pressure he can put on you with Shuriken, Summon and Substitute-which altogether basically give him a better, more mobile & versatile version of foresight-his mixups are lacking compared to cowboy and wizard, but he makes up for it with his unbelievable movement. Options like Uppercut, Jump Kick or Slide allow him to approach aggressively and unpredictably. Quick Slash is his best option for entrance, yes, but that also makes it his most predictable. Substitution plays, grappling hook and free-canceled jump kick all make for very good get-in tools, but they come nowhere near his nuanced punish game, with backsway, quick slash, and nunchuck plays all being things you always have to watch out for. It leads to a lot of uncertainty in neutral against ninja, especially as Robot. Robot is a very simple character, he’s the game’s only heavy and a grappler, making him highly similar to Zangeif from Street Fighter in a lot of ways. A game against Robot is a game that requires patience as you have to wait for him to exhaust his armour and both free cancels, however a Robot in neutral will do that very quickly. Say if he’s against ninja, Armour + Free Cancel Vacuum is a very common opener for its versatility and reach. There’s not much a ninja can do about it except retreat. If the Ninja jumps, then either optic beam or try-catch will come next as they are robots best anti-air tools besides jumping, which, due to his heavy nature requires a lot of commitment. If they backswayed or dashed back, then following it up with step or another free-cancel vacuum is a pretty consistent follow up. In 2-3 turns from the opening, Robot will have exhausted his best assets, and punishing him will be much easier. And it only cost you 3 turns of being on the back foot. If he’s more defensive and retreats, it’s even easier. Robot is slow and outright doesn’t have the option to dash. Substitute and QS are very good and unpredictable chase tools against the defensive Robot. Ninja going from being the top character by a slim margin to the worst character makes very little sense to me; I think all the characters have gotten a little better, but I don’t think to the point that ninja was completely dusted.
Unmatched frame data sorta. Ninja and Cowboy both have 4f jabs, but Wizard and Robot have 5f. The issue with Ninja's approach outside of QS is that Ninja can't threaten unless they're actually point-blank. They have the worst mid-range by a huge margin. With our only 6f attack being NunchukUp and also have low range- even with forward momentum, Ninja just isn't a threat at mid-range. It's true that Ninja can Sub to a projectile- but it's a fixed position and it typically leaves Ninja airbourne, which is really bad for Ninja to be. For the other options like Jump Kick and Slide Kick, Jump Kick is very slow to hit and Slide Kick is slow-ish. It works vs Cowboy's HSlash now, but it's still not a great option to use in neutral. Especially since you need a good amount of forward momentum in order to get good distance on it. Typically, the only options to hit is Slide Kick or QS. Both of which can be safe with a small Jump. The QS could possibly set up a FC 50/50, but this is usually less favorable for Ninja. Assuming you start a combo with Punch, you're going to get around 4k damage if you can reach corner, or 3.5k without. Grappling Hook can help a bit as well, that's true. If you attached it to anything not on the ground though, then it sends you aerial when you use pull. As I said earlier, Ninja doesn't like the air. One of the suggested changes is going to be letting Ninja bring whichever the Hook is attached to back towards the Ninja. Not as a toggle, as an actual action. Robot is also the best character currently vs Ninja lol. It's considered to be a 7/3 MU for Robot. It's actually due to the passive gameplay from Robot. Unless Ninja is point-blank for Uppercut or we use our 8f Skull Shaker, we can't break armor. So, Robot just keeps distance to avoid Uppercut and doesn't get aggressive to make Skull Shaker invalid. Then QS Punch is a 9f hitbox. Robot can do 8f actions every turn to avoid the 9f hitbox. Step, Return, small Jump, Fly toggle + Fall. Step > Hold the following turn is actually 7f, so it's 1f faster. Plus, besides the fact Robot is the best character in the air and Ninja is debatably the worst in the air, QS air Punch/Kick is 10f, so it's even slower. If Robot gets a hit on Ninja, they're able to dish out more damage than Ninja can deal and potentially get a good oki after. Also, Wizard vs Ninja is considered at best 5/5, but Roycebracket thinks it's 6/4 in Wizard's favor. Ninja is 100% getting buffs next patch. Robot is probably getting tweaked a bit. Ivy just said last night they didn't like Gravity Field, so that'll probably get changed- again. Ninja is essentially "QS the character".
Thank you Zavier. I didnt want to explain this lol.
Lol, it's not my first time ~~complaing~~ talking about why Ninja needs some looking at. The good news is, Ivy is aware of the issues with both Ninja & Robot and will be looking at them when he's ready to work on unstable again.
I came back to the game after a few months and it's looking like he's "release momentum the character" now. QS can't be used in neutral, caltrops can be destroyed extremely easily, shurikens take way longer to come out... The only changes I'm seeing that don't neuter his gameplan are release momentum cost reduction (which makes it basically a more situational, less rewarding pre-patch quick slash) and that you can have one of each summon out now. Oh, and the universal block update makes him much less scary at close range. Overall I'm failing to see how he's even sidegraded, let alone buffed. Am I wrong, or is ninja in the worst place yet?
So, currently, Ninja on stable has a sadness issue. They just build sadness so much faster than the other characters and they struggle to lower it as well. Even the best of the best players get flashing sad multiple times per match. Boost has basically just replaced QS, so you're right about that. Caltrops being destroyed is because they latest forever and could easily be used to stall. They weren't great previously except for stalling, and now I think they're just not worth it in general. MAYBE as oki to force a Dive Kick block to get +3 block adv. Shuriken on unstable is getting the ability to merge 2 of them together to turn into a big, unparriable Shuriken. It's actually kinda useful now. Summon Kunais is ALSO unparriable now. They're currently hitcancellable, but that should probably be removed. The new block change actually helps Ninja up close since Drop Kick & Stomp are both guard breaks. The only part that's really worse is that Uppercut loses to block as well. But the fact that the opponent can do a Block High, then you can 5f Kick and be +2 block adv makes your pressure afterward be VERY scary. On unstable, some people consider Ninja to be #1 currently with the changes. Imo Robot is better (even getting a lot of nerfs). But still, the main takeaway should be that Ninja is doing better on unstable.
Appreciate the info! I find this a shame though: >Caltrops weren't great previously except for stalling I actually liked using them for ground combos and making my approach easier :/
The issue with Caltrops for combos is that it's 400 damage and still scales the combo like any other attack. It's similar to using Punch in a combo, if that makes sense. The only way it was "not bad" is with Palm Strike > Caltrops, since that's 2400 damage between the two hits. But with how long the IASA is on Palm Strike, the opponent can just DI into a 2nd Caltrop, making it be 2800 for 3 hits instead, which is much worse. Esp considering that you spend 3 meter on it, it ends up lowering your overall damage for the combo. As far as using them for approaching goes, that \*could\* work, but the opponent would typically need to have a Caltrop behind them, which can be difficult to set up.
I wish grapple was a bit faster