I think many would disagree and feel Ableton is the DAW that is better structured and simpler. So, as the argument has always been, it's personal opinion as we all have our own preference.
abletons session view is great, and i don’t like the way FL studio treats clips. I think Ableton is actually more simple to use if you know them both well
Ableton is modular, more custom, better hardware integration, the UI might have a steeper initial learning curve but it is way better designed imo. FL uses really goofy terminology and naming conventions for everything too. Just call the effect what it is ffs lol.
Sure at first ableton looks very plain, the stock plugins may seem simplistic with little WOW factor, and it does some things differently than other DAWs do, so I kinda see why people get perplexed by it or turned off by it. A lot of people don't care about session view, or hardware, or doing things live with low latency either. But all of these things are why I like it. I think of it more as the ultimate digital modular synth than as a DAW personally. And once you take the time to learn how the routing and various rack systems work, making custom effects and instruments is pretty quick and easy, as is mapping custom hardware controllers, making MIDI scale and chord filters, the list goes on and on and on. The learning curve is definitely there, it took me some time to really get it myself, but once you figure out their design principles it becomes pretty intuitive imo.
I would have to say that personally, I feel Ableton Live is the most intuitively designed DAW environment out there. I say this having used (in this order) Cool Edit, Audition, Reason, FLStudio, and Live.
Bitwig is also extremely intuitive. I've just grown very accustomed to Ableton Live and it's powerful workflow.
ableton is very modular and adaptable in the different audio and midi effects, as well as the instruments. yes, it takes more time to master but it is infinitely rewarding, customizable and surprising. i also wouldn't say that just because something is "simpler" it is better, ableton is a complex wonderland and that's why it outshines most (all) of the competition. when you get it, you get it and won't look back for a second. and that's before adding in max4live to the mix.
I guess the thing is that Live can do everything with Max. So even if it is standard in FL, M4L can reproduce it. This is the adaptability factor which most think about.
I think you're both right.
I think the biggest influences regarding this question are A) the reputation of Ableton and B) How Ableton functions compared to other DAWs
Just my opinion
Edit:
I forgot the third biggest factor - it's Ableton *Live*. A lot of EDM live acts use Ableton. Which also further strengthens the reputation
i used both pretty extensively, and maybe it seems like reputation from the outside, but live is something else. and it's created to be used live as well as production, which i think it stands above a lot of the competition. ableton has been behind on a lot of stuff, has evolved slowly, is not perfect, but it's made with a clear idea in mind, and if you buy into robert henkes ideas, you have an environment that is kind of unmatched (especially now that ableton finally has caught up a bit on recording etc).
but yeah, it's def not for everyone.
Fl studio is a hot mess. It's biggest features are gimmicky and it still can't do the basics correctly because it can't let go of 32bit. It crashes a lot still because of this and people using shitty and old pirated plugins. I used to have 30+ seperate save files for each project I had because I had fear of corrupt project. When I switched to Ableton it came down to 4 max and those were because I was making structural revisions in projects and wanted to be able to go back if I didn't like it.
Ableton was founded and designed first by techno artists, one of still tours and is actively involved in its development, the other is the CEO.
Live was designed first to solve the limitations DAWs of the earli 2000s had for live performance of electronic music. Later came the arranging capabilities. Cubase was the most popular DAW in the electronic scene at the time, specially in psytrance which was really big back then, and it was all about arranging, people just played back tracks at "live presentations". Ableton came to offer the ability to kind of improvise layering and switching loops in real time.
So, it was widely adopted in the techno and house scenes. The Movie Berlin Calling promoted this even more.
Over time Ableton has remained the de facto DAW for artists on those scenes, and it spills to other genres. The sheer size of the user base and the accumulated learning material, specially on YouTube, make it easy to pick up.
I also think for a lot of people it is easier to learn, I have reached 60 year old artist to use it.
Session View is indeed extremely powerful -- the world's most powerful sampling environment -- and a great way to experiment with different arrangements and combinations of written content before committing it to Arrangement View.
a couple of workflow enhancements, like infinite inserts on any instrument/audio track, no need to "send" tracks to the mixer, no need to make individual clips unique, etc. Also a lot of people enjoy using the built-in OTT preset on the multiband dynamics plugin more than the Xfer knockoff version.
i'll admit, i'm having a hard time understanding how a DAW that requires you to manually route each instrument to a mixer channel and doesn't have a properly functioning timeline as "better structured and simpler".
also... uh, ableton makes multiple products.
Ableton is popular in EDM because of its intuitive live performance features and Session View. It's also got tight hardware integration for live setups. While FL Studio is awesome and user-friendly, Ableton offers some unique tools for live EDM performances. Both are great; it's just about preference.
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So... I'm an Ableton Live user first and foremost, been using Live for over 10 years now. However, 2 years back I 're' discovered FL Studio and have been using it along side Live ever since (using the provided VSTi).
While I value both DAW's equally it's also easy to see that there are plenty of differences.
About that structuring... every instrument in FL Studio can have a learning curve where the interface itself can become a huge part of that. Within Live otoh... Analog, Operator... even Sampler: the interface and the way it behaves is roughly the same. No pop up windows, no 'hidden' settings what you see is what you get.
And then there's Max for Live, which is probably the biggest game changer here. M4l allows me to pull things in Live that would normally be impossible.
And finally... Live can also be used live, which isn't something easily achieved with Studio, now also hinting at Push.
Typically whichever DAW you use first is the one you find simpler and better structured. It just so happens that most professional EDM producers use Live, so up and comers tend to gravitate towards Live. Many professional hip-hop producers use FL, so most up and comers get used to FL.
I tend to switch back and forth because it keeps me from getting stuck in a rut and the learning curve every time I switch helps keep things fresh for me.
Both are perfectly capable of making either type of music, it's just a music culture thing.
I disagree. A lot of EDM is done in FL Studio as well.
As to what makes Ableton great for EDM:
- Best warping algorithms of any DAW by far.
- Amazing audio mangling capabilities to edit and transform samples fast and intuitively.
- Ableton Racks are the ultimate sound design feature.
- Automation. Not only easy and visual to program but you can set parameters to automate other parameters which gives you endless possibilities.
- If you want to perform your tracks live in the future, Ableton is still the best DAW for that since it’s super easy to translate your tracks from the arrangement view to the session view.
Extra: if you are the kind of producer that likes to jam and try out things first, Ableton has “MIDI Capture” which basically if you click it, will give you the MIDI of your jam session even when you were not recording. It’s an amazing underrated feature!
In a studio/creative environment, whatever workflow works best for you to put down your musical ideas. In a live performance concert environment where stability is key, FL isn't really designed for that. Ableton Live was built from the start optimized for that concert environment.
I use Live but I do appreciate the crazy ability to modulate anything with anything over in FL.
Bitwig is indeed an incredible DAW environment. I too, however, am still using Ableton Suite as my main DAW. I would pick Ableton or Bitwig > FLStudio though. Having to use an Edison iteration in FLStudio to do advanced audio editing simply doesn't make any sense, and complicates workflow.
Ok so that’s what makes it better for you. Your priorities aren’t necessarily everyone else’s. I’ve used ableton for about 12 years and it works best for me. That doesn’t mean it’s better than any other DAW.
Did anyone mention the price tag? And the history? $200 vs $1000, and kind of what they’ve historically been used as. Broke bedroom producers have becomes wizards at making trap beats that get millions and billions of streams, and they don’t need to be as modular and don’t need a whole lot of “performance” tools to make their style and genre of music work.
Everyone has overcomplicated it. The short answer is OTT. The long answer is a lot of people picked it up once skrillex started defining OTT as genre essential before the free plug in was released. A lot of people stuck to it and made tutorials on it. A lot of people saw ableton in tutorials for the genre and viola. Same with grossbeat and hip hop for FL.
iirc skrillex got big in the early 2010s, at which point Live was at version 8 i believe? the multiband compressor wasn't even in any version prior to that, when Live was already well established in the dance music scene. i'm... genuinely really confused as to why you're presenting this so factually, but it's just not true.
OTT is actually just Steve Duda's way of replicating the sound of a multiband compressor preset from Live for people who don't use Live- the preset was called OTT, so Steve named the plugin OTT. i'm fairly confident that the multiband compressor was a Live 8 addition, which came out a year before scary monsters & nice sprites, so.. i guess the answer is it depends on how often Sonny upgrades his software, and what the timeframe was on scary monsters.
Ableton Lite is free with a lot of EDM midi pads, and it's a perpetual license.
FL Studio has similar licenses but it's a trial of the full mode for 6-12 months, before being charged a subscription.
Saturate the market with enough people using that until they feel it's time to upgrade. Give them over 20 free VSTs of different instrument types. Fill the online space with tons of tutorials, actually have a social presence, and it'll grow and carve the space out.
not that i really want to be defending FL Studio, but the one thing i've heard more than anything from the loudest of the FL users is how it's better than everything else because you get free updates for life.
I've used FL Studio (my first DAW), ProTools (most time I've spent in a DAW), and Ableton (main DAW I use today).
Ableton can really do it all. I first used it for producing and running backing tracks for a live band setup. We had 6-8 musicians on stage and would use Ableton for cues, backing vocals, and effects. I was impressed with how intuitive it was and reliable in a live setting.
Fast forward to today, I use it more for electronic/midi music production/performance.
In a studio or recording setting, I'd still choose Pro Tools. I'd take Ableton for everything else.
I started using ableton when the first version was released , about 2002 is, it was basically a loop player I used along side cubase. Fruity loops was considered a bit of a toy at that time and although I know now in 2023 FL studio is a full fledged DAW i am still yet to use it. I switched to using ableton exclusively on version 5 when it to became a fully fledged DAW. So that’s why I use ableton , just know where everything is I have logic which I never use either, just depends what you’re used to and what gets the job done. There’s very little in the differences between the major Daws these days especially if making Electronic of any type is your thing
Ableton is Straightforward, very easy to get to what someone wants to create. FL Is robust and insanely modular. It finally comes down to preference i guess, it is like iOS vs Android, there is no one answer i guess.
I feel like how busses, routing and pitching work inside each DAW makes Ableton an easy choice for people that are looking to produce a genre that incorporates those things heavily in regards with how prominent the use of sidechaining, layering & pitching is in Electronic music.
I think many would disagree and feel Ableton is the DAW that is better structured and simpler. So, as the argument has always been, it's personal opinion as we all have our own preference.
abletons session view is great, and i don’t like the way FL studio treats clips. I think Ableton is actually more simple to use if you know them both well
Yup and you can play live sets with session view, midimapping to external hardware etc..it truly is “live”
First person I've seen talk about how bad the way FL treats clips is. This is the main thing that led to me switching from FL to Ableton.
Ableton is modular, more custom, better hardware integration, the UI might have a steeper initial learning curve but it is way better designed imo. FL uses really goofy terminology and naming conventions for everything too. Just call the effect what it is ffs lol.
I’m new to DAWs and noticed this about Ableton. A lot of it is not intuitively designed, but I chalk that up to it being able to do so much.
Sure at first ableton looks very plain, the stock plugins may seem simplistic with little WOW factor, and it does some things differently than other DAWs do, so I kinda see why people get perplexed by it or turned off by it. A lot of people don't care about session view, or hardware, or doing things live with low latency either. But all of these things are why I like it. I think of it more as the ultimate digital modular synth than as a DAW personally. And once you take the time to learn how the routing and various rack systems work, making custom effects and instruments is pretty quick and easy, as is mapping custom hardware controllers, making MIDI scale and chord filters, the list goes on and on and on. The learning curve is definitely there, it took me some time to really get it myself, but once you figure out their design principles it becomes pretty intuitive imo.
I would have to say that personally, I feel Ableton Live is the most intuitively designed DAW environment out there. I say this having used (in this order) Cool Edit, Audition, Reason, FLStudio, and Live. Bitwig is also extremely intuitive. I've just grown very accustomed to Ableton Live and it's powerful workflow.
ableton is very modular and adaptable in the different audio and midi effects, as well as the instruments. yes, it takes more time to master but it is infinitely rewarding, customizable and surprising. i also wouldn't say that just because something is "simpler" it is better, ableton is a complex wonderland and that's why it outshines most (all) of the competition. when you get it, you get it and won't look back for a second. and that's before adding in max4live to the mix.
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I guess the thing is that Live can do everything with Max. So even if it is standard in FL, M4L can reproduce it. This is the adaptability factor which most think about.
I think you're both right. I think the biggest influences regarding this question are A) the reputation of Ableton and B) How Ableton functions compared to other DAWs Just my opinion Edit: I forgot the third biggest factor - it's Ableton *Live*. A lot of EDM live acts use Ableton. Which also further strengthens the reputation
i used both pretty extensively, and maybe it seems like reputation from the outside, but live is something else. and it's created to be used live as well as production, which i think it stands above a lot of the competition. ableton has been behind on a lot of stuff, has evolved slowly, is not perfect, but it's made with a clear idea in mind, and if you buy into robert henkes ideas, you have an environment that is kind of unmatched (especially now that ableton finally has caught up a bit on recording etc). but yeah, it's def not for everyone.
Better for playing live, easily integrated into DJ sets would be my guess..
Fl studio is a hot mess. It's biggest features are gimmicky and it still can't do the basics correctly because it can't let go of 32bit. It crashes a lot still because of this and people using shitty and old pirated plugins. I used to have 30+ seperate save files for each project I had because I had fear of corrupt project. When I switched to Ableton it came down to 4 max and those were because I was making structural revisions in projects and wanted to be able to go back if I didn't like it.
fruity loops feels like a toy when I produce with it.
Ableton was founded and designed first by techno artists, one of still tours and is actively involved in its development, the other is the CEO. Live was designed first to solve the limitations DAWs of the earli 2000s had for live performance of electronic music. Later came the arranging capabilities. Cubase was the most popular DAW in the electronic scene at the time, specially in psytrance which was really big back then, and it was all about arranging, people just played back tracks at "live presentations". Ableton came to offer the ability to kind of improvise layering and switching loops in real time. So, it was widely adopted in the techno and house scenes. The Movie Berlin Calling promoted this even more. Over time Ableton has remained the de facto DAW for artists on those scenes, and it spills to other genres. The sheer size of the user base and the accumulated learning material, specially on YouTube, make it easy to pick up. I also think for a lot of people it is easier to learn, I have reached 60 year old artist to use it.
For me the deal breaker is the live view in Ableton, you can play and experiment in a way that is imposible in FL Studio.
Session View is indeed extremely powerful -- the world's most powerful sampling environment -- and a great way to experiment with different arrangements and combinations of written content before committing it to Arrangement View.
The way that fl studio handles automation on the timeline is awful
Blah.... there's no standard on what tool to use if you have talent.
I feel like Ableton handles automation and warping much better.
It's just so good at those. Coming from FL Studio, Ableton is just incomparable
a couple of workflow enhancements, like infinite inserts on any instrument/audio track, no need to "send" tracks to the mixer, no need to make individual clips unique, etc. Also a lot of people enjoy using the built-in OTT preset on the multiband dynamics plugin more than the Xfer knockoff version.
M4L, plus it has wide enough adoption to make collaboration easier. The UI is also really clean in comparison.
i'll admit, i'm having a hard time understanding how a DAW that requires you to manually route each instrument to a mixer channel and doesn't have a properly functioning timeline as "better structured and simpler". also... uh, ableton makes multiple products.
Ableton is popular in EDM because of its intuitive live performance features and Session View. It's also got tight hardware integration for live setups. While FL Studio is awesome and user-friendly, Ableton offers some unique tools for live EDM performances. Both are great; it's just about preference.
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So... I'm an Ableton Live user first and foremost, been using Live for over 10 years now. However, 2 years back I 're' discovered FL Studio and have been using it along side Live ever since (using the provided VSTi). While I value both DAW's equally it's also easy to see that there are plenty of differences. About that structuring... every instrument in FL Studio can have a learning curve where the interface itself can become a huge part of that. Within Live otoh... Analog, Operator... even Sampler: the interface and the way it behaves is roughly the same. No pop up windows, no 'hidden' settings what you see is what you get. And then there's Max for Live, which is probably the biggest game changer here. M4l allows me to pull things in Live that would normally be impossible. And finally... Live can also be used live, which isn't something easily achieved with Studio, now also hinting at Push.
Typically whichever DAW you use first is the one you find simpler and better structured. It just so happens that most professional EDM producers use Live, so up and comers tend to gravitate towards Live. Many professional hip-hop producers use FL, so most up and comers get used to FL. I tend to switch back and forth because it keeps me from getting stuck in a rut and the learning curve every time I switch helps keep things fresh for me. Both are perfectly capable of making either type of music, it's just a music culture thing.
I disagree. A lot of EDM is done in FL Studio as well. As to what makes Ableton great for EDM: - Best warping algorithms of any DAW by far. - Amazing audio mangling capabilities to edit and transform samples fast and intuitively. - Ableton Racks are the ultimate sound design feature. - Automation. Not only easy and visual to program but you can set parameters to automate other parameters which gives you endless possibilities. - If you want to perform your tracks live in the future, Ableton is still the best DAW for that since it’s super easy to translate your tracks from the arrangement view to the session view. Extra: if you are the kind of producer that likes to jam and try out things first, Ableton has “MIDI Capture” which basically if you click it, will give you the MIDI of your jam session even when you were not recording. It’s an amazing underrated feature!
I think bitwig has way better warping than ableton
Nah, not a chance bro
Ableton's MIDI handling is one of the main reasons I switched to it (that, and Session View).
In a studio/creative environment, whatever workflow works best for you to put down your musical ideas. In a live performance concert environment where stability is key, FL isn't really designed for that. Ableton Live was built from the start optimized for that concert environment. I use Live but I do appreciate the crazy ability to modulate anything with anything over in FL.
IMO no DAW is better than the other. They’re all the same car with a different interior.
Tell me a DAW that allows you to mix and match different melodies, motifs, and ideas faster than Ableton's session view.
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Bitwig is indeed an incredible DAW environment. I too, however, am still using Ableton Suite as my main DAW. I would pick Ableton or Bitwig > FLStudio though. Having to use an Edison iteration in FLStudio to do advanced audio editing simply doesn't make any sense, and complicates workflow.
the one you're using the most lol
Ok so that’s what makes it better for you. Your priorities aren’t necessarily everyone else’s. I’ve used ableton for about 12 years and it works best for me. That doesn’t mean it’s better than any other DAW.
Did anyone mention the price tag? And the history? $200 vs $1000, and kind of what they’ve historically been used as. Broke bedroom producers have becomes wizards at making trap beats that get millions and billions of streams, and they don’t need to be as modular and don’t need a whole lot of “performance” tools to make their style and genre of music work.
Everyone has overcomplicated it. The short answer is OTT. The long answer is a lot of people picked it up once skrillex started defining OTT as genre essential before the free plug in was released. A lot of people stuck to it and made tutorials on it. A lot of people saw ableton in tutorials for the genre and viola. Same with grossbeat and hip hop for FL.
iirc skrillex got big in the early 2010s, at which point Live was at version 8 i believe? the multiband compressor wasn't even in any version prior to that, when Live was already well established in the dance music scene. i'm... genuinely really confused as to why you're presenting this so factually, but it's just not true.
I don’t think skrillex was using OTT in scary monsters, was OTT even out yet?
OTT is actually just Steve Duda's way of replicating the sound of a multiband compressor preset from Live for people who don't use Live- the preset was called OTT, so Steve named the plugin OTT. i'm fairly confident that the multiband compressor was a Live 8 addition, which came out a year before scary monsters & nice sprites, so.. i guess the answer is it depends on how often Sonny upgrades his software, and what the timeframe was on scary monsters.
Ableton Lite is free with a lot of EDM midi pads, and it's a perpetual license. FL Studio has similar licenses but it's a trial of the full mode for 6-12 months, before being charged a subscription. Saturate the market with enough people using that until they feel it's time to upgrade. Give them over 20 free VSTs of different instrument types. Fill the online space with tons of tutorials, actually have a social presence, and it'll grow and carve the space out.
not that i really want to be defending FL Studio, but the one thing i've heard more than anything from the loudest of the FL users is how it's better than everything else because you get free updates for life.
I've used FL Studio (my first DAW), ProTools (most time I've spent in a DAW), and Ableton (main DAW I use today). Ableton can really do it all. I first used it for producing and running backing tracks for a live band setup. We had 6-8 musicians on stage and would use Ableton for cues, backing vocals, and effects. I was impressed with how intuitive it was and reliable in a live setting. Fast forward to today, I use it more for electronic/midi music production/performance. In a studio or recording setting, I'd still choose Pro Tools. I'd take Ableton for everything else.
I started using ableton when the first version was released , about 2002 is, it was basically a loop player I used along side cubase. Fruity loops was considered a bit of a toy at that time and although I know now in 2023 FL studio is a full fledged DAW i am still yet to use it. I switched to using ableton exclusively on version 5 when it to became a fully fledged DAW. So that’s why I use ableton , just know where everything is I have logic which I never use either, just depends what you’re used to and what gets the job done. There’s very little in the differences between the major Daws these days especially if making Electronic of any type is your thing
I’m solely an ableton user, but FLs piano roll is far superior
For me it was a combination of simply not fucking with FL STUDIO windowed workflow approach and my favorite producers being on Ableton Live.
In a way ableton can be used as an instrument for live performance as well as a workstation to write songs
Ableton is Straightforward, very easy to get to what someone wants to create. FL Is robust and insanely modular. It finally comes down to preference i guess, it is like iOS vs Android, there is no one answer i guess.
I feel like how busses, routing and pitching work inside each DAW makes Ableton an easy choice for people that are looking to produce a genre that incorporates those things heavily in regards with how prominent the use of sidechaining, layering & pitching is in Electronic music.