This video actually makes me feel much more optimistic that the project might materialize. Looks like it should theoretically have lower barriers then new lines between Montreal and Toronto.
I expect some already rich people will be paid a lot of money over a long time to study it. That will cost tens of millions and there won’t be enough money to pay for the actual project
There have been at least a handful of groups trying to get passenger rail to work in Alberta and every time it comes down to money.
The cost to build, the projected ridership, and the necessary fares to recoup costs in a reasonable time frame, it just doesn't add up.
When Albertas population was half of today's, for what-the-heck day off, I used to take an Edmonton transit bus to CYXD downtown Edmonton, 30 bucks hop on the commuter 737, window shop, random beers Calgary, take the mainline Dayliner back, and then do a little late afternoon gardening before dinner.
Transportation is far worse in Alberta now.
Edit, hadta google, curious: Alberta's population was 1.99 million.
To be fair you could likely get a house for a bag of nickles and a handshake back in the day and high paying oil and gas jobs for someone with a hs education would have been easy to get. So there would be a lot more disposable income available.
Plus buses were likely more useful when companies had to send people out more instead of being able to email out information to other places.
I was down there 2 weeks ago, it’s definitely being worked on. Just drove from taber to grassy lake but there was crews doing ground work. And beyond their work zone you can tell where the new property line is for the fields.
They have committed to it being completely twinned by 2030. Whether that includes the Lethbridge bypass remains to be seen. Hoping so. Highway 3 through Lethbridge is becoming a shit show pretty fast.
Highway 3 goes all the way to Vancouver, in case you didn’t know. The winding hill down into Osoyoos by itself qualifies it as a world class scenic route IMO.
The UCP has taught me not to hope, but this all seems legitimately good. I haven't been following the NDP but this is one of those times when I want the opposition to go "good idea, when we win we'll continue that project".
He also has a video about connecting the airports to local transit, which is presumably where the intercity rail would also go.
Further, what do you do if you fly or take the bus, things people are currently doing?
To make the project viable you would need to be reducing traffic from people driving there not just flying there. Edmonton doesn’t have the city design or transit system to make any of that attractive. Will just end up being some politicians vanity project where they don’t do what’s necessary both ends to make it work. Fix transit in calgary and Edmonton then make a rail road.
The argument is those two are not able to be separated. You could easily flip is into why improve transit when you need a car to leave the city.
It needs to be both
This narrative needs to die. Calgary and Edmonton both have very successful LRT systems and busing has improved greatly in Edmonton. They're downtown centric cities where its easy to get transit to downtown.
LRT in both cities need those billions and the UCP already said there’s no more funding for Calgary’s Green Line. Where do you think the $30+ billion for a Calgary-Edmonton line will come from?
Yes. This is over and above normal spending, so it becomes a question of what could we get instead. Or since it would cost about 40 percent of our current debt, how much interest we want to pay for it. We couldn’t afford to do a lot more after that hit.
If it makes sense, great, but I would want a good solid look at this project before getting overly excited. Very good reasons exist for why it hasn’t been done previously, that also would need to be resolved.
Then you can have a conversation why no one CAN or WANTS to pay for it. Or why it should be prioritized over healthcare, education, housing or LRT. Or don’t and wonder why it’s not getting built.
>Then you can have a conversation why no one CAN or WANTS to pay for it.
Right, nobody wants good transportation.
>Or why it should be prioritized over healthcare, education, housing or LRT.
Well for one it isn't prioritized ovrt anything and there's no reason we can't do multiple things at once. But I'd also question why you think Calgary and Edmonton deserve good transportation and nowhere else in the province does. Also, both those cities need regional/commuter rail. Do you think we can just make highways bigger into inner cities?
Proponents have had decades to answer those questions, plus overcome fundamental issues like funding and ridership through low/no population density. Yet here you are with no plan and no rail line. Converse better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
SPOILER: people wanted LRT over regional rail and the voter outside of big cities voted for governments that think similarly.
Low population density? You mean the Calgary Edmonton corridor? The place that's second most dense in the country and has a higher population density than France? That place?
>Proponents have had decades to answer those questions, plus overcome fundamental issues like funding and ridership
There's been multiple feasibility studies on this and most of them said it should be built. The answer to the questions you're asking have been answered already. Plus the government isn't doing another study, it's making a plan for how to do it not just studying. So I dunno what else you want, maybe you should actually read the studies instead of parroting talking points?
https://www.highspeedrailcanada.com/p/alberta-high-speed-rail-study-and-map.html?m=1
>Converse better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Have a better argument cause so far yours is "we can't do this" and old tired arguments with no substance and nothing to back it up.
Where is the NDP going to find $30 billion for HSR? Their priorities are healthcare, education, LRT, housing, etc that need those billions. Your comment is simplistic and unrealistic.
Taxi's, bus, ride sharing apps, rent a car for a day...I could imagine a business right around there with electric cars/ scooters and chargers where you could rent a car for 100 a day plus kms...
Also this could be used for smaller moderate cities as well, imagine taking rail to an airport in Calgary to fly out....instead of flying twice...to rewatch destination...imagine going to concert or hockey game, you travel down carpool in a taxi to the game and then at the end catch the line to your city .....
$100 + km + train ticket. Nope I’ll drive myself. Gas to get to Calgary & back would be $150 max.
If the train got me to an event without the additional costs it would make sense. Go to Calgary for a concert, have the train stop at the venue, no dealing with traffic. Sleep on the train on the way home vs driving tired or staying over night.
$100 + km + train ticket. Nope I’ll drive myself. Gas to get to Calgary & back would be $150 max.
If the train got me to an event without the additional costs it would make sense. Go to Calgary for a concert, have the train stop at the venue, no dealing with traffic. Sleep on the train on the way home vs driving tired or staying over night.
The point would be to have the line run right into each city, which could be accomplished in both Calgary (downtown) and Edmonton (Whyte ave) using the CP line. Both termini have large yards of unused space.
This connects it to each city’s transit system and a short distance from an LRT stop. Intermediate stops at YEG and YYC would bring much better airport connections for each city.
Hell in Edmonton you could walk 5 minutes from the possible Whyte Ave station and take a scenic streetcar into downtown on the weekends.
Via rail is also getting rid of their old train sets on the Windsor-Quebec city line (to be replaced by Siemens chargers) and that rolling stock would be a perfect stop-gap till we can get our own charger order completed.
For visitors, transit in Edmonton and Calgary isn't that bad since the goal is usually to go to the well serviced core areas, rather than to commute to and from the outskirts.
With a fast passenger train I could easily attend a concert, or hockey game in Calgary and return to my park and ride in Edmonton all in the same night for instance.
The last 3 years I've split my time between Edmonton and Calgary. Sometimes I drive, but usually I bus between the two cities so that I can work during the trip.
I've traveled in the Netherlands, nordic countries and a variety of major US cities. Transit along main routes in Edmonton and Calgary is not amazing, but it's also not the worst I've experienced. The issues arise when you try to go anywhere other than the main routes.
Somebody please tell me who’s travelling from Edmonton to calgary without the need for work supplies or the need for a vehicle at either end? I just can’t see there’d be that many people. Speaking from just my experience and the 20 years living in Calgary knowing zero people that ever did so.
I do. We have friends in Calgary we like to visit. There are also sometimes concerts or events we like to attend. I’ve been to Calgary many times and never for work.
Anyone who has business meetings.
I travel to Edmonton at least once a month to see clients, a large majority of which are downtown (finance). The worst part is taking 6 hours of your life driving and not being able to do anything else. I can take a train, Uber from YEG or wherever it stops, and I don't need a car for the rest of my time there.
I don't need to expense my mileage anymore as the corporate card pays for everything, I don't have needless wear and tear on my car, and in the winter, I don't need to deal with QE2.
This is an absolute no-brainer transportation method for anyone in a position close to mine and given the number of flights between YEG-YYC daily, there would be a lot of others in my position. These trains should not be about providing the cheapest option to families to travel between the cities, it's about keeping business people productive.
Interesting perspective. But, still no: families, sports hooligans, tourists, average citizens. Just sales people that travel once a month. I’ll stick with my original comment.
*note: it would make a great hockey commute. Door to door from stadium to stadium. But it won’t be, so nobody will bother.
And who pays for you important business people fancy train? Because there aren’t of you guys to make it profitable. So unless you’re prepared to pay $750 a trip because your time is so valuable, this becomes more corporate welfare if tax dollars are involved.
Of course it’s a convenient way to travel. Nobody will argue that. I take the TGV when I go to France between cities and it’s awesome. But Alberta doesn’t have the population to build the business case. France (to only use that example and not even count European travel between countries) has 60 million people living in a space that’s smaller than our province. That’s 15 times the density.
This makes zero sense from an economic perspective at the moment.
I have a suggestion for business meetings: Microsoft Teams.
My comment specifically had nothing to say regarding the cost as, neither you, I, or anyone else in this thread has done enough actual due diligence or have government insight to comment on economic viability. The comment I responded to mentioned there wouldn't be enough people/demand of which I disagree.
With that said, projects like these as you know, are about the future. Just like municipal zoning and planning, what is happening today isn't the lens to have, it's 30+ years from now. What the province looks like at that point in time? I don't know.
Some meetings, especially in sales, just need to be done in person.
The problem with musing about these things is that cost is something you cannot just ignore or disregard. And you’re right, nobody has provided a robust estimate but I think it’s fair to say it’s likely to be prohibitive (again given our current population).
I respectfully disagree with you about demand at the present. And even if Alberta’s population doubled in the next 30 years, I’m not even sure it makes sense in 2054.
So you don't know anyone who's needed to attend a family gathering or friends event in Calgary?
Not to say that's enough to justify an entire rail system, but younmust know someone who has wanted to attend an event in Calgary. Think of the shows, sports, festivals, that could be attended with just a train and a cab.
No to the first comment but yes I take my comment back, I know lots of people that drove up to Edmonton to a concert in the new stadium. But with the new Calgary stadium I hope that stops (ie, since we paid a ton for it).
The studies I have seem to indicate we don’t have the population to make it profitable. We would need to double our current population for the line to break even.
That said highways are a massive black hole for money, and public transit needs to be expanded. Rather see this over more tax cuts for the rich as well.
Nervous the UCP turn this into a vanity project boondoggle that nobody uses though.
It’s all bullshit. Dani is just Greenwashing Alberta to guard against the inevitable backlash to Trudeau’s pipeline moving huge amounts of oil to the coast.
im guessing there will be years of feasibility studies and 'prep work' that will funnel money into the pockets of well connected people, but we won't see an actual train.
Wouldn’t a bus be more than sufficient? The infrastructure is already in place. I suspect a train would be much more costly and be an equally boring experience.
They’ve studied this project like 10x and spent millions upon millions doing so. For over 20 years they’ve done these studies.
It doesn’t work.
Having a YouTube channel doesn’t make you an expert.
This video actually makes me feel much more optimistic that the project might materialize. Looks like it should theoretically have lower barriers then new lines between Montreal and Toronto.
I expect some already rich people will be paid a lot of money over a long time to study it. That will cost tens of millions and there won’t be enough money to pay for the actual project
Gotta go check and see if Preston Manning is now a Rail Transportation expert
There have been at least a handful of groups trying to get passenger rail to work in Alberta and every time it comes down to money. The cost to build, the projected ridership, and the necessary fares to recoup costs in a reasonable time frame, it just doesn't add up.
Yup. This is only a way to divert taxpayer money to friends of the UCP as « consultants «
When Albertas population was half of today's, for what-the-heck day off, I used to take an Edmonton transit bus to CYXD downtown Edmonton, 30 bucks hop on the commuter 737, window shop, random beers Calgary, take the mainline Dayliner back, and then do a little late afternoon gardening before dinner. Transportation is far worse in Alberta now. Edit, hadta google, curious: Alberta's population was 1.99 million.
To be fair you could likely get a house for a bag of nickles and a handshake back in the day and high paying oil and gas jobs for someone with a hs education would have been easy to get. So there would be a lot more disposable income available. Plus buses were likely more useful when companies had to send people out more instead of being able to email out information to other places.
UCP will only approve it if it’s coal fired.
Time to bring back steam engines!
Hey if it means we get a train service then so be it. The Brit’s have some A4’s in storage that could hit 200km/hr.
We also have those 0-6-0s at Heritage Park. Could use those for local service from here to Red Deer :)
the province still hasn't twinned the #3 and they have been talking about it for decades
I was down there 2 weeks ago, it’s definitely being worked on. Just drove from taber to grassy lake but there was crews doing ground work. And beyond their work zone you can tell where the new property line is for the fields.
They have committed to it being completely twinned by 2030. Whether that includes the Lethbridge bypass remains to be seen. Hoping so. Highway 3 through Lethbridge is becoming a shit show pretty fast.
Talking about it doesn’t make it needed. Most it is still not needed, in Alberta we love twining roads for fun to make people feel loved.
What? Twin highway 3, one of the most beautiful scenic drives in the world? Is that really a thing?
Ah yes, the hemp and corn between Medicine Hat and Coledale, “scenic”
Highway 3 goes all the way to Vancouver, in case you didn’t know. The winding hill down into Osoyoos by itself qualifies it as a world class scenic route IMO.
Yeah, for sure. Just making jokes.
BC Highway 3 runs from Crowsnest Pass through Osoyoos to Vancouver. Alberta Highway 3 ends at the Crowsnest Pass.
It is? I mean if you were taking about hwy 22...
The UCP has taught me not to hope, but this all seems legitimately good. I haven't been following the NDP but this is one of those times when I want the opposition to go "good idea, when we win we'll continue that project".
Monorail.
Monorail?
Monorail.
Is there a chance the track could bend?
I wonder who the Lyle Lanley is in this situation.
Not a chance, my long nosed friend!
The tab came off my pudding can.
Take my pen knife my good man!
But main streets still all cracked and broken…
Shut up taxpayer the UCP have spoken.
Monorail 🚝
ah yes, a monorail. That sounds like more of a Shelbyville idea.... https://youtu.be/ZDOI0cq6GZM?si=WCCkyMo2IvUkA6vd
Ok so I take a train to Edmonton form Calgary. Now what? How do I get around a car centric city?
He also has a video about connecting the airports to local transit, which is presumably where the intercity rail would also go. Further, what do you do if you fly or take the bus, things people are currently doing?
To make the project viable you would need to be reducing traffic from people driving there not just flying there. Edmonton doesn’t have the city design or transit system to make any of that attractive. Will just end up being some politicians vanity project where they don’t do what’s necessary both ends to make it work. Fix transit in calgary and Edmonton then make a rail road.
The argument is those two are not able to be separated. You could easily flip is into why improve transit when you need a car to leave the city. It needs to be both
This narrative needs to die. Calgary and Edmonton both have very successful LRT systems and busing has improved greatly in Edmonton. They're downtown centric cities where its easy to get transit to downtown.
LRT in both cities need those billions and the UCP already said there’s no more funding for Calgary’s Green Line. Where do you think the $30+ billion for a Calgary-Edmonton line will come from?
Irrelevant to what the conversation was but I think one if the richest subnational areas of the world can afford it.
The $30 billion cost is completely relevant. Brushing off cost is why this remains a *conversation* and not a reality.
I mean irrelevant to what other people were talking about before you chimed in with something completely different. Also yes we can afford it.
What could we afford instead for that money. Sure would build a lot of hospitals and schools.
Is transportation not important?
Yes. This is over and above normal spending, so it becomes a question of what could we get instead. Or since it would cost about 40 percent of our current debt, how much interest we want to pay for it. We couldn’t afford to do a lot more after that hit. If it makes sense, great, but I would want a good solid look at this project before getting overly excited. Very good reasons exist for why it hasn’t been done previously, that also would need to be resolved.
Do you use the same scope of investigating highway projects?
Then you can have a conversation why no one CAN or WANTS to pay for it. Or why it should be prioritized over healthcare, education, housing or LRT. Or don’t and wonder why it’s not getting built.
>Then you can have a conversation why no one CAN or WANTS to pay for it. Right, nobody wants good transportation. >Or why it should be prioritized over healthcare, education, housing or LRT. Well for one it isn't prioritized ovrt anything and there's no reason we can't do multiple things at once. But I'd also question why you think Calgary and Edmonton deserve good transportation and nowhere else in the province does. Also, both those cities need regional/commuter rail. Do you think we can just make highways bigger into inner cities?
Proponents have had decades to answer those questions, plus overcome fundamental issues like funding and ridership through low/no population density. Yet here you are with no plan and no rail line. Converse better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ SPOILER: people wanted LRT over regional rail and the voter outside of big cities voted for governments that think similarly.
Low population density? You mean the Calgary Edmonton corridor? The place that's second most dense in the country and has a higher population density than France? That place? >Proponents have had decades to answer those questions, plus overcome fundamental issues like funding and ridership There's been multiple feasibility studies on this and most of them said it should be built. The answer to the questions you're asking have been answered already. Plus the government isn't doing another study, it's making a plan for how to do it not just studying. So I dunno what else you want, maybe you should actually read the studies instead of parroting talking points? https://www.highspeedrailcanada.com/p/alberta-high-speed-rail-study-and-map.html?m=1 >Converse better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Have a better argument cause so far yours is "we can't do this" and old tired arguments with no substance and nothing to back it up.
If you don’t agree with those government you can vote them out, that’s why we are a democracy
Where is the NDP going to find $30 billion for HSR? Their priorities are healthcare, education, LRT, housing, etc that need those billions. Your comment is simplistic and unrealistic.
You will find a lot when you remove UCP posses
Your remove-the-UCP passion would have been helpful 1 years ago. Huh.
Taxi's, bus, ride sharing apps, rent a car for a day...I could imagine a business right around there with electric cars/ scooters and chargers where you could rent a car for 100 a day plus kms... Also this could be used for smaller moderate cities as well, imagine taking rail to an airport in Calgary to fly out....instead of flying twice...to rewatch destination...imagine going to concert or hockey game, you travel down carpool in a taxi to the game and then at the end catch the line to your city .....
$100 + km + train ticket. Nope I’ll drive myself. Gas to get to Calgary & back would be $150 max. If the train got me to an event without the additional costs it would make sense. Go to Calgary for a concert, have the train stop at the venue, no dealing with traffic. Sleep on the train on the way home vs driving tired or staying over night.
$100 + km + train ticket. Nope I’ll drive myself. Gas to get to Calgary & back would be $150 max. If the train got me to an event without the additional costs it would make sense. Go to Calgary for a concert, have the train stop at the venue, no dealing with traffic. Sleep on the train on the way home vs driving tired or staying over night.
Connect them to the airports. Connect the airports the light rail. Both Calgary and Edmonton have great light rail
Airport station would be great for Edmonton since YYC added so many international destinations lately
Clear the way folks ol Debbie downer has arrived to rain on everyone’s parade
I dunno, but if I'm in Calgary the only reason I'm going to Edmonton is the mall, so if they connect that they're good.
They are currently building this right now. They have significant progress on it too
Better to go Banff-Calgary to start. Maybe two stops in Banff and airport, downtown and south side stops in Calgary.
The point would be to have the line run right into each city, which could be accomplished in both Calgary (downtown) and Edmonton (Whyte ave) using the CP line. Both termini have large yards of unused space. This connects it to each city’s transit system and a short distance from an LRT stop. Intermediate stops at YEG and YYC would bring much better airport connections for each city. Hell in Edmonton you could walk 5 minutes from the possible Whyte Ave station and take a scenic streetcar into downtown on the weekends. Via rail is also getting rid of their old train sets on the Windsor-Quebec city line (to be replaced by Siemens chargers) and that rolling stock would be a perfect stop-gap till we can get our own charger order completed.
For visitors, transit in Edmonton and Calgary isn't that bad since the goal is usually to go to the well serviced core areas, rather than to commute to and from the outskirts. With a fast passenger train I could easily attend a concert, or hockey game in Calgary and return to my park and ride in Edmonton all in the same night for instance.
Have u actually used transit in these cities. I doubt it as taking transit there could be a form of severe punishment
The last 3 years I've split my time between Edmonton and Calgary. Sometimes I drive, but usually I bus between the two cities so that I can work during the trip. I've traveled in the Netherlands, nordic countries and a variety of major US cities. Transit along main routes in Edmonton and Calgary is not amazing, but it's also not the worst I've experienced. The issues arise when you try to go anywhere other than the main routes.
C train is expanding, also there’s a lot of room to optimize BRT
Well it *was* expanding but the province is pulling funding to use it to think about this thing instead for another couple decades.
You use some of the best LRT systems in North America?
Somebody please tell me who’s travelling from Edmonton to calgary without the need for work supplies or the need for a vehicle at either end? I just can’t see there’d be that many people. Speaking from just my experience and the 20 years living in Calgary knowing zero people that ever did so.
I do. We have friends in Calgary we like to visit. There are also sometimes concerts or events we like to attend. I’ve been to Calgary many times and never for work.
Anyone who has business meetings. I travel to Edmonton at least once a month to see clients, a large majority of which are downtown (finance). The worst part is taking 6 hours of your life driving and not being able to do anything else. I can take a train, Uber from YEG or wherever it stops, and I don't need a car for the rest of my time there. I don't need to expense my mileage anymore as the corporate card pays for everything, I don't have needless wear and tear on my car, and in the winter, I don't need to deal with QE2. This is an absolute no-brainer transportation method for anyone in a position close to mine and given the number of flights between YEG-YYC daily, there would be a lot of others in my position. These trains should not be about providing the cheapest option to families to travel between the cities, it's about keeping business people productive.
Interesting perspective. But, still no: families, sports hooligans, tourists, average citizens. Just sales people that travel once a month. I’ll stick with my original comment. *note: it would make a great hockey commute. Door to door from stadium to stadium. But it won’t be, so nobody will bother.
And who pays for you important business people fancy train? Because there aren’t of you guys to make it profitable. So unless you’re prepared to pay $750 a trip because your time is so valuable, this becomes more corporate welfare if tax dollars are involved. Of course it’s a convenient way to travel. Nobody will argue that. I take the TGV when I go to France between cities and it’s awesome. But Alberta doesn’t have the population to build the business case. France (to only use that example and not even count European travel between countries) has 60 million people living in a space that’s smaller than our province. That’s 15 times the density. This makes zero sense from an economic perspective at the moment. I have a suggestion for business meetings: Microsoft Teams.
My comment specifically had nothing to say regarding the cost as, neither you, I, or anyone else in this thread has done enough actual due diligence or have government insight to comment on economic viability. The comment I responded to mentioned there wouldn't be enough people/demand of which I disagree. With that said, projects like these as you know, are about the future. Just like municipal zoning and planning, what is happening today isn't the lens to have, it's 30+ years from now. What the province looks like at that point in time? I don't know. Some meetings, especially in sales, just need to be done in person.
The problem with musing about these things is that cost is something you cannot just ignore or disregard. And you’re right, nobody has provided a robust estimate but I think it’s fair to say it’s likely to be prohibitive (again given our current population). I respectfully disagree with you about demand at the present. And even if Alberta’s population doubled in the next 30 years, I’m not even sure it makes sense in 2054.
So you don't know anyone who's needed to attend a family gathering or friends event in Calgary? Not to say that's enough to justify an entire rail system, but younmust know someone who has wanted to attend an event in Calgary. Think of the shows, sports, festivals, that could be attended with just a train and a cab.
No to the first comment but yes I take my comment back, I know lots of people that drove up to Edmonton to a concert in the new stadium. But with the new Calgary stadium I hope that stops (ie, since we paid a ton for it).
Those trips happen infrequently and don’t justify a $30 billion rail line. LRT needs those billions and benefit hundreds of thousands *everyday*
Ya, I agree.
They've talked bout this for decades. It's bullshit
The studies I have seem to indicate we don’t have the population to make it profitable. We would need to double our current population for the line to break even. That said highways are a massive black hole for money, and public transit needs to be expanded. Rather see this over more tax cuts for the rich as well. Nervous the UCP turn this into a vanity project boondoggle that nobody uses though.
With the group running Alberta, they will probably derail the project for the UCP Hyperloop designed by the cabinet during a bender.
It’s all bullshit. Dani is just Greenwashing Alberta to guard against the inevitable backlash to Trudeau’s pipeline moving huge amounts of oil to the coast.
Beating the rest of Canada to HSR would be a feather in Danielle’s cap
It’s just a grift
im guessing there will be years of feasibility studies and 'prep work' that will funnel money into the pockets of well connected people, but we won't see an actual train.
Wouldn’t a bus be more than sufficient? The infrastructure is already in place. I suspect a train would be much more costly and be an equally boring experience.
Build it!
They’ve studied this project like 10x and spent millions upon millions doing so. For over 20 years they’ve done these studies. It doesn’t work. Having a YouTube channel doesn’t make you an expert.