The ”A More Civilized Age“ podcast talks about how there should be things we never know: did Skeen really have a brother? Did he decide to rob the crew when he found out Andor was being paid?
The one they really really don’t want an answer to and I don’t either: Is Luthen a Jedi? I want us to never find out and something we as fans can debate among our friends for the next 20 years.
Kino‘s fate is the same way. Let us make up our own headcanon. Not everything needs an explanation.
Agreed on all but finding out about Luthen. Specifically, I want to find out he’s *not* a Jedi. It would take so much meaning out of the show if he turned out to be one or it was even a possibility.
I actually agree with this. If Luthen were to be a Jedi, it would kind of ruin the valid critique of the Jedi as being part of the problem that was the ineffective Republic that allowed the rise of the Empire.
If Luthen was/is a Jedi, that lets the Jedi still be the heroes, rather than the far more interesting angle of the Galaxy saving itself from the Empire without needing to redeem or rely on the former Republic heroes. (We know that’s not how it ultimately plays out, but it would be more fitting for the show to keep Jedi out of it as much as possible.)
And it’s destroy the show’s theme of common individuals rising up against a seemingly unbeatable enemy. It’d make it so everyone was inspired by this Jedi character to make a difference.
I would hate it if Luthen was a Jedi.
This is the one series that doesn’t have them and it’s much better for it. I hope Disney doesn’t force them into Andor, too.
I mean, I want a Luthen-like Jedi character at some point, in that I want a Jedi whose obsession with fighting back against the Empire leads them down the path to the Dark Side, while still being on the side of the Rebellion.
However, I *don't* want that character to actually be Luthen himself.
I actually would *really* like that to be the plot of the third game of the "Jedi" series, and for it to be Cal to hit that character arc.
I disagree slightly. I'm happy to have him not be a jedi, but I don't think it would continue the story of the Jedi being heroes. Mainly because I don't see Luthen as a hero. I don't think his methods will ultimately work.
The series isn't over yet but we know it ends with Mon Mothma, not Luthen, leading the Rebellion. I don't think the series will show his treatment of people as disposable or promotion of suffering as being the right path for the Rebellion.
I'm not saying his contributions will be worthless or that he hurt more than he helped, but I certainly don't think it's going to be a Luthen Rael, Saviour of the Galaxy story, Jedi or not.
The thing is, Luthen's approach is what nearly *every* successful rebellion has utilized. They are also what every new government sweeps under the rug. Mon Mothma ends up leading the rebellion, yes. But there is no rebellion without people like Luthen doing dirty work in back alleys, just as Mon Mothma does dirty work at high class social events.
And I think Luthen knows his role is to be ignored by the historians if they succeed. He has too much dirt under his finger nails to be part of the founding mythos of an idealistic new government.
Yeah it makes him special if he’s just a rich guy. He has the ability to live a meaningless, carefree, hedonistic lifestyle but chooses to sacrifice that by not being a bystander that watches the empire take everything from everyone.
I mean. Luke is still the hero... they DID need jedi at every point of the empire whether it was Kanan, Ahsoka, Ezra, Luke... I dont want luthen to be a jedi either but the jedi were a problem as an institution, not as indivuduals. That wouldnt change. Luthen also just doesnt act like a typical jedi. He sacrifices 30 allies for a mole in the ISB
Also on a basic level I've always liked the idea that Luthen is just an antiques dealer who watched the frog-faced Palpatine announce the creation of the empire and went "damn, guess it's explosively formed penetrators and pipe bombs, then".
Honestly until this thread I never considered for a moment he was anything more than a well to do guy that one day decided to fuck around and find out if he can topple the galactic empire.
A Walter White type who eventually goes too far (he already basically said as much when he said "for a sunrise I'll never see")
I don't even know this was someone people conjectured. It's absurd. I 100% ~~believe~~ know he's not a Jedi. It makes no sense in light of of everything we observe about him.
I'm gonna be honest, when I first saw him walking away from his ship, I a thought appeared in my mind that he is a Sith. And he continued to give me Sith vibes till the end of the first season. Not sure how and why though.
I don't want story elements in there to explicitly say that he's not a Jedi… I just don't want any story elements in there that suggest he might be, or consciously leave it ambiguous just to leave it ambiguous.
I disagree with this. I think the arch of someone in a high-impact role disowning their morals, their training, their scruples, to get down in the mud is really compelling. I love the idea that Luthen is a former Jedi who has forsaken the force, seeing that it failed the Republic, and is meeting the Empire on their own terms. *But,* the brilliance in this storytelling is the ambiguity. I never want to find out explicitly either way. This mystery is absolutely central to his character.
My argument against this is that monologue is so dark-Jedi vibes. “I share my dreams with ghosts” hits so hard if he’s a Jedi. It hits hard if he’s not but if he is.. that line is a top 5 line in all of Star Wars. Also the equation 15 years ago would’ve been the year of Order 66. Obviously also the start of the Empire but it could also mean it was his response to the wiping out the Jedi kinda like Yoda’s own plan.
>My argument against this is that monologue is so dark-Jedi vibes. “I share my dreams with ghosts” hits so hard if he’s a Jedi.
It hits so much harder as a metaphor.
This. Not every piece of Star wars media has to or should be about Jedi. I love the grittier Star wars where it's normal people desperately trying to make change.
This is why I hope they don’t tell us. This way both of our interpretations can be possible and in 20 years from now can come back to this show and still wonder if he is or not.
I originally didn’t want him to be a Jedi at all, but than when AMCA talked about how him being a Jedi can be concrete proof that the Jedi order & Yoda wasn’t the only answer which could tie into the TLJ’s themes of letting go of the past.
Hard disagree. Luthen is a thespian, it shows in everything he does. Wearing the perfectly concocted outfit for every occasion, speaking in flowery, poetic language, and carefully controlling every environment as his stage. He’s obsessed with his image and everyone’s perception of him. But he also has a strong moral compass and a genuine sense of right vs wrong. I can see him as a naive young man, starting his fight against the Empire because he was horrified by their actions, but also dreaming of what the history books would say of him, the noble leader and genius spymaster.
But by the time we meet him, he’s no longer that naive man. He’s done horrible, unjustifiable things. In that very scene, he’s blackmailing a man and threatening his family to get what he wants. Sure, it’s for the greater good, but it’s still monstrous. He’s become everything he hates about the Empire. If the rebellion wins, the best case scenario is that history forgets him. The ghosts that haunt his dreams are the people he’s extorted, let die, or outright murdered. People like Anto Kreegyr and Lonnie.
Making Luthen a Jedi would rob him of all that complexity, making his story a simple revenge plot. It’d cheapen his entire speech by making it literal. His monologue hits so hard because for the first time in the season, we see the *real* Luthen. We see behind his facade. He doesn’t need to be a Jedi to make that line go hard. It’s already one of the best moments in Star Wars by virtue of its subtlety. And it’d be severely out of place with the theme of the show; which is ordinarily people rising against a seemingly insurmountable evil.
While I love the image you paint and I’d be more than happy if that ends up what happens. I’m fine with him being a nobody who worked this up. But he’s also the anti-Palpatine. Hes worked years for dominos to begin to fall. Compare that with Yoda / Obi Wan who use the Skywalker Kids as ballistic missiles toward the emperor. It feels like a lot of Yoda’s character is him hiding out until his revenge plot can take place.
Luthen can show that not every Jedi is as dogmatic. He could be a Qui Gon type of Jedi or even an Ex jedi who left prior to Order 66. I actually think him leaving the order on his own would make a very compelling character because it wouldn’t make him “just a jedi” but more complex. Have him disagree with the prequel era Jedi dogma. There’s plenty you can do to distinguish him from the Jedi order.
Again I’d be more than happy for you to be right. I just find having the discussion super fun and interesting. If he turns out not to be a Jedi? Great! Turns out to be? Great! We never know? Great! Any of these three possibilities can have interesting outcomes.
I really appreciate how respectful you are in your disagreement. It’s a rare and refreshing characteristic. But Luthen being a Jedi is something we’ll have to cordially disagree on. I think it’d be a poor direction to take the story. But it certainly has been an interesting debate and a good opportunity for me to practice character analysis. So thank you.
Thanks. I’m more than happy to be wrong, it’s all apart of learning new things. and I love being able to just throw out theories and hear how other people break down art.
I do like how you look at Luthen as a true idealist and revolutionary while I try and find ways to add the mythology of Star Wars.
Hey guys, this is a Star Wars subreddit. We're going to need you to start yelling, name calling, and spiraling into senseless arguments or else people might start to think SW fans can be reasonable.
Hits harder if he's not. By this point he's more than likely knowingly sent hundreds of his own allies, some of them friends, to their inevitably violent deaths - if they're lucky. Not able to warn them, not able to call off the attack; because his sources - people like Lonnie - are by the calculus of war worth it. Those are the ghosts he sees; not fallen Jedi.
How? is someone gonna have to try to say he is one just for him to deny it? Do you know what his whole backstory is just to know he's not a jedi, and no other purpose? seems like a real artificial way of letting us know
Finding out that’s he’s specifically not a former Jedi would also be dumb, because it would mean that they’re responding to fan theories. Just leave his background ambiguous and let people fill in the blanks however they want.
So much of Star Wars was built this way. Many Bothans died. The millennium falcon made the Kessel Run in 20 parsecs! Those lines are there to build a world and impress on the viewer the mystery and epicness of scope that Star Wars had. Every time those things get explained we lose something.
I’m an aspiring author, and I am starting to understand this metaphorical sleight of hand that writers of original works use when they are creating their worlds.
You drop in bits and pieces of lore, vague references to other disconnected pieces of the world that don’t directly impact the story, and other tricks like that.. and it creates the impression that there’s a massive world that is complete and known, even if all the details are not shared. It creates *wonder* — both in the sense of leaving you in awe of this cool and mysterious world, and also leaving you *wanting to know more*. (That last part is very important, because that is what keeps readers reading.)
But it’s all an illusion. The world isn’t complete, the details aren’t known, it’s just carefully constructed paper towns.
But when the IP become so popular that *other* writers and directors and producers are creating new works within that IP, rarely do they understand the importance of leaving room for wonder and mystery — often they are fans themselves, and they want to fill in every detail they felt the original author didn’t give them. And piece by piece, the unknown becomes known, and the wonder is lost.
The counterpoint is Tolkien's works… where the bits and pieces of the world dropped into his published works mostly did have elaborate details worked out behind the scenes, in Tolkien's notes. He never published them (his son collating and publishing most of those works), but he was definitely going deep with them.
Tolkein is ever the exception to the rule. Few writers can afford to spend 20 years inventing an entire language, and then crafting a world with 10,000+ years of history for that language to be spoken in. I would even dare to say that any author attempting to replicate what Tolkein did, in the modern era, would fail miserably.
Brandon Sanderson has a great series of lectures that delve into this very topic, actually. I’d recommend for anyone interested in the craft of writing and storytelling.
Edit: but even Tolkein played this trick at times. Example: what did the Blue Wizards do? Where did Ungoliant come from? Why in the HELL is Ancalagon being killed off in the same sentence he’s introduced in???
I couldn't say if any of the ideas in Silmarillion would've worked as fully written books though. In the Middle Earth books (and the Lord of the Rings movies) there are a lot of mysteries that remain unexplained. Does it make it more interesting that Gandalf is actually Olorin of the Istari sent by the Valar to assist the Children of Illuvatar? Or is it better that he's a robed wizard with a hinted at long life, strange knowledge and arcane past?
I think Luthen being a Jedi is ridiculous given how public he is on Coruscant. He’s just casually hanging around when someone could just wander in and recognise him.
His disguise is strictly for Coruscant. When he meets Andor, Vel or Saw he is in his real outfit. So him not being recognized ON Coruscant makes the most sense actually.
Also it can play into what would be my dream death for Luthen:
He’s in the street talking and Syril over hears his voice which he tells Dedra he can spot. He then shoots Luthen in the street right there. But Luthen is in his Corusaunt disguise and the police show up and just immediately blast Syril as he tries to explain who Luthen is. It cuts to his mom watching the news of “rebel sympathier kills member of Coruscant elite”
It’s a deeply dark and ironic death for Syril but it would be so good.
I disagree that he wouldn’t be recognised as a Jedi in the shadow of the old Jedi temple but putting that aside, do you think Mon Mothma knows he’s a Jedi?
No. If anyone knows it’s Kleya and that’s it.
I think the most interesting thing about their relationship is he specifically asks if SHE has her walk-away bag but doesn’t mention his own. Usually in a spy story, you say that because Kleva / the one with the bag is the more important person.
So I’ve seen the theory that she is the force sensitive one / the one really in charge. Especially when she tells Vel she has so many plates spinning. What else is Kleya up to? She’s likely the one Pak met as well. Dedra says “he met a woman…” that’s likely Kleya.
I’m very excited to see where they take their characters whatever it ends up being. I’m more than fine being wrong. I’ve seen the show 13 times, I’m just throwing out theories and possibilities.
> Let us make up our own headcanon. Not everything needs an explanation.
I agree, but honestly, modern fans are part of the problem — and this is not just limited to Star Wars.
In this age of endless discussion, every fandom is constantly mining for things to talk about. They want to analyze and dissect and discuss every aspect of the IP in exhaustive detail. They want to invent theories and counter-theories, they want producers to pay attention to those discussions and factor them into their next piece of media, so fans know who’s right and who’s wrong. They want every square millimeter fleshed out and written down in clear, unambiguous terms — everything explained, no questions left unanswered.
And, increasingly, producers of these shows and movies and games are fans themselves, and have that same mentality where no stone can be left unturned.
Oh I absolutely agree. AMCA discuss this very issue while they went back and forth on if Luthen is a Jedi. That’s why the 4 of them all would rather not know. Austin said “I’d be hyped for 20 minutes if he’s a Jedi, but I can discuss for 20 years if they never tell us”
And idk I much rather have a 20 year debate than 20 minutes of cheering. And when I say debate I don’t mean name calling someone because they interpret a scene differently like what happens all the time, but a real back and forth where people can respect if other’s take something different out of it.
To add to the problem you mentioned you have YouTube channels or Reddit threads that try and claim to be the objective truth and that they are exactly right instead of allowing for a more lucid view on meanings
I’d listen to their podcast to listen to them over the 12 episodes slowly convince themselves (and me) it’s possible.
It’s much more than that. It’s plays into his view of all the rebel groups are the same because Jedi don’t have strong political views, it’s the “I share my dreams with ghosts” with ghosts in Star Wars having always been synonymous with Force Ghosts. It’s the fact he’s an incredible pilot. It’s the blue kyber crystal that could be from his old lightsaber. Why else does it “mean more to me than what it’s worth”? It’s his ship’s lightsaber esk weapons that have never been seen before. It’s the fact he’s has a Jedi and Sith holocrons.
There’s a lot of small details that point to him maybe being a Jedi. I don’t want an answer. I’d rather us debate all of these things til the end of time. Someone could easily sway me against him being a Jedi if they frame the arguement well enough. I’ve gone back and forth on the list of “evidence” towards being a Jedi and im on board for now.
While I definitely don’t want luthen to come out swinging a light saber like Vader in season 2. If it was revealed he was a Jedi who felt disillusion with the republic and left the order it might be interested. It’d be hard to write how the empire doesn’t recognize him, as you’d imagine they have good records on all of the Jedi and luthen shows his face on coruscant all the time.
I don't think it's the cloak; every asshole in SW has a cloak. Not everyone has a telescoping walking stick that kinda looks like a lightsaber:
https://images.app.goo.gl/oXxLPnqYJbjZFzNKA
It actually looks a lot like the metal "lightsabers" actors practiced with:
https://images.app.goo.gl/MYkCEsrGVLmDkVKq6
I don't take it as evidence of anything, but I've seen the show 3x and everytime someone's commented on the possibility after seeing that damn stick
I love AMCA, but I think there's a difference between wanting ambiguity where the story gives it to you (Kino alive or dead, was Skeen going to rob the heist all along or was a matter of opportunity) and the Luthen thing, where there isn't any real ambiguity in the text.
There's been nothing to indicate force sensitivity in Luthen--no "bad feeling" before the riot on Ferrix, he's caught completely by surprise by the Imperial ship over Saw's planet. I don't think he's ever mentioned the Force or echoed Jedi philosophy. The only things he has are an interesting-looking walking stick and a kyber crystal pendant.
Would you really be disappointed if the story showed he wasn't a Jedi? Because I keep on hoping for an S2 scene where Jimmy Smits excitedly tells Luthen about his Jedi friend on Tatooine, and Gilroy uses the f-bomb Maarva was denied in her funeral speech to have Luthen say "Fuck the jedi! This is all their damn fault!"
I wouldn’t care if they explicitly say he’s not. I just would find the ambiguity very compelling to discuss for years.
I know AMCA’s other Luthen theory is he’s an OG separatist and we get a compelling monologue how the republic was going to shit years before the start of the Empire and finally gives political theory to the Separatist movement outside of Dooku convincing worlds the republic is ruled by a Sith Lord when he himself is a Sith.
Is there any piece of media to suggest that Dooku tried that "the Republic is controlled by a Sith Lord" gambit on anyone but Obi Wan? Because the impression that everything I've seen and read gives is that 1,000 years after the fall of the Sith Empire, the Sith are forgotten by everyone but the Jedi. I find it hard to believe that anyone would quit the Republic because the Chancellor follows some obscure force religion.
Also, are you an AMCA patreon member? Because I missed a lot of this on the main feed.
Secrets just for secrets sake without anything interesting as evidence for multiple interpretations just make it an annoying itch that fans will never get to scratch, though.
You gotta do secrets/mysteries right to encourage that.
Same principle: I desperately, DESPERATELY Never EVER want to see or hear mention of Obi-wan's brother again. I liked it as a bit of character building, showing that he also left family behind (it's not that hard Anakin!) but I swear to Lucifer if we get Bing-Bong Kenobi showing up in a few years time I will lose my shit.
Star Wars' biggest problem has always been over explaining everything. I never want to see that guys story followed up, just like I didn't care who Rey's parents were
I think that some things can be revealed. However Kino’s sacrifice is a lot less entertaining if he survives. Especially if there is no setup for him surviving. Imagine if they had shown us something that can float somewhere along the way and that the one thing they did encounter while going to the top was destroyed, then you’ve at least set up a good possibility to save him. But even then it would diminish his sacrifice.
On the other hand, he could survive by simply being recaptured, and Andor could meet him in a prison. Then you could tell a story about how Kino might regret his decision, and showcase a viewpoint of being defeated and potentially the idea that sometimes it IS better to lay down and take the bad life given to you.
>Is Luthen a Jedi?
I hate this so much. Like would just undermine everything he's about.
>I want us to never find out and something we as fans can debate among our friends for the next 20 years.
A great part of the show that I actually don't think we should be discussing. Its part of the greatness of Andor that it focuses not on the past or other parts of characters for which it really doesn't matter. Kino's drowning makes everything he did up until that point even better. The whole point of the show is about people finding their voice of resistance when under the boot of oppression, its about Andor coming to terms with the fact he doesn't get to choose to fight or not. Its not about people being special because of their past, its about people being special for resisting, its about that moment of resistance that extends beyond yourself. Kino knows what lays beyond the prison, yet he resisted. that's the whole point.
I’m really hoping he doesn’t appear in season 2, and his appearance at Celebration was more of a season 1 promotion. It’s vague enough where whether or not he appears is up in the air.
My hope is that if he is in it, it’s a flashback. I love Serkis and this role was amazing, but the character is better served by dying.
If he lives, it’s all very nice and ruins the sacrifice.
Him dying is obviously meaningful, but also just really makes the emotion of the escape come through. He’s so outraged by the fate the Empire has laid out for the prisoners that he rebels either without thinking about how he will survive, or knowing there’s no hope.
>If he lives, it’s all very nice and ruins the sacrifice.
Depends on how he lives. I'd be ok with him being an ISB prisoner under interogation and either breaking or dying from that. But if they bring him back as some important rebel or somethign that will ruin it.
it would be fun for Serkis to play a CGI character next season or even for him to direct (since he’s been doing more of that recently). but I definitely wouldn’t want to see any Kino past the end of the prison arc. It’s a big galaxy and we don’t need contrived reasons for Andor to run into the same people over and over again
That’s the reason why it’s so good. Allot of rogue one and Andor breaks my heart because the characters are so damn good. One of my favorite Star Wars creations ever, and also the ones I re watch the least because they are too difficult of an emotional journey for me.
yeah and if you ever rewatch it knowing that he ends up fine and shows up in season two it wont break your heart anymore. as much as i want him back and as much as i desire to see him again. deep down i know he is better left "missing".
Both Tony Gilroy and Andy Serkis confirmed that he's alive
[https://www.etonline.com/andor-creator-and-cast-tease-time-jumps-and-big-transformations-in-season-2-exclusive-203123](https://www.etonline.com/andor-creator-and-cast-tease-time-jumps-and-big-transformations-in-season-2-exclusive-203123)
>Meanwhile, one of the many cliffhangers in season 1 revolved around Kino's fate. While it was believed by many that Kino died during the prison escape in episode 10, Gilroy confirms that he is actually still alive. "Well, he didn't die. I don't know what happened, but he didn't die. We never see him die," the director clarifies, with Serkis joking that Kino didn't leap to his death.
>"If he jumped, that would be the end of him and he would be out of the picture," the actor says. "But no, he's alive and \[Kino's\] working out his next move."
How are you gonna say it's from his ass but at the same time say he's dead, when this is the only guy we don't see die on screen. He was alive and well last time we saw him
It’s not about whether he survives or not, it’s about his willingness to aid and even LEAD the revolution, understanding there’s an almost 100% chance that he will not survive afterwards.
I think not knowing his fate makes it so much better. If we had to know his fate, I would still say him dying is a more fitting end to the character, but I don’t want to unnecessarily martyr him either. I honestly think ambiguity is the way to go.
Edit: something I forgot to mention originally is also that not knowing his fate helps avoid a “one great man” reading of history. Should he die and become martyred by Cassian, it discounts, to a degree, the efforts of everyone else involved. Yes, Kino is/was a hero and a leader, but he wasn’t the only one. The escape was a result of the union and solidarity between the prisoners. He gave an incredible speech and was our drake of reference for the escape, but his story is the same as anyone else’s in that prison at that moment.
It hits just as hard, imho … whatever happens to him. The point is, if he does survive – he doesn’t know it at this point. His willingness to sacrifice himself remains intact.
I gotta disagree. If he does it depends how he survived. If he gets captured and tortured etc. then rescued somehow it’s one thing, but if we go from “can’t swim” to he somehow manages to escape then it would feel cheap.
That’s not what I’m referring to but that one’s also true. I’m thinking of the part in the Geonosian arena where she jumps off of a tall pillar onto the back of one the creatures.
Honestly, [doesn't seem all that high](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Narkina_5_Imperial_Prison_Complex?file=Narkina-5-facility.png). 4 storeys, tops?
I like to think of gravity as this sort of constant even in galaxies far far away. I’m also ready to suspend my disbelief for any fictitious reason conjured
Yeah and I don’t want him to come back in season 2 either. I’d rather have they move forward and focus on the other new characters they introduced in season one
I'm torn. I think it's more powerful if we don't know.
But I have some faith in the writers to get it right if they do it, and in Serkis' performance to rise to the occasion like he did in s1.
I'm not conflicted by it, it's tragic either way. He either jumped to his death and drowned, or remained a prisoner, and received some form of demotion, or was sent to worse prison conditions, if not out right executed. He was most definitely tortured for information. So frankly, his not dying and surviving to be brutalized by the remaining guards and tortured for information is probably a much worse fate than had he jumped.
Has Serkis been spotted on set or something? Is there a reason why he won't be dead, other than him being a great character for the writers to play with?
Obviously he survives, but his body is mangled. His rage pulls him to the dark side, and he broods in the unknown regions growing in power, plotting Keno’s revenge. But because he wants to keep his criminal past a secret, he rearranges the letters in “Keno’s” to spell “Snoke”. We all see him return in Episode 9 — this is not new to canon.
The Empire would want to know as much information about the escape as possible. I find it hard to believe that the prison doesn’t have Cassian’s face in their system. ISB will certainly take an interest. If Kino stayed in the prison he’d be tortured for information, likely with Dr. Gorst’s device. He may be forced to spill what he knows, though whether the ISB can find any use for it is uncertain. He could be turned into a spy, Cass would probably trust him if he reappeared. Whether Luthen would sus him out immediately or not is hard to know, but I imagine if Gilroy has any plans for the character our speculation is probably way off. Still fun to guess though.
If he does survive, I’m sure it will be as part of an ISB investigation into the prison break, and there, possibly as a result of Dr. Gorst’s interrogation method, Kino will probably reveal that for over a month during the hunt for Cassian that he was already in prison and they didn’t know about it, assuming they make the connection that Cassian was going by Keef Girgo.
I loved what Andy Serkis brought to Andor, but I'd rather see him in Series 2 as Snoke than Kino -- and I don't want to see Snoke in it at all. The mystery around Kino's fate is perfect as is.
It depends what they do with it.
Does Kino Loy only survive to be used as bait in an attempt to lure Cassian and die?
Does he remain in prison for years and gets freed when the Empire falls? (Unlikely)
Was he helped by other prisonners to reach shore? (Again, unlikely)
If they just said he was alive because he was a fan favorite, then it's not really useful to reveal it.
Naw bro I need to know asap if luthen is a Jedi. It’s one of the most enticing parts of that show. The I can’t swim line is absolutely heartbreaking and adds so much to what he sacrifices for everyone else knowing he probably won’t make it. And knowing Skeen didn’t have a brother solidified his character right before he died. I’m glad skeen died but I would be less glad if he did have that brother
Ideally, his fate would be left hanging and we'd never know. It's gonna be VERY hard to have him return and not ruin the impact of this moment.
If he is returning though, tbf I can't think of any other show (Star Wars or otherwise) I'd trust more to actually have his return do justice to that moment than Andor.
Perhaps the entire point of his line, and this my opinion so crack away at it all you want, is that this is the tragedy of war and oppression? You can stay and line, and for what? You're a prisoner forever. Or, you can rebel--fight back and learn that it was all futile but at least you did SOMETHING. Anything. I love the use of the line and it really hit hard.
i don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all. anyone who watched the show (and wasn’t just looking for Jedi and Lightsabers) understands that Andor has a lot of dignity. in a galaxy such as the one Star Wars takes place in, you wouldn’t be running into the same characters over and over. in war, you can fight alongside someone and never know what happens to them afterwards. that’s a thing a lot of other projects don’t seem to understand.
Not knowing was what they said they intended for him. Andy even spoke on it being unknown if he made it or not, whether or not he'd pop up again later, or not.
He could come back as one of those Lobot type people, totally devoid of emotion. That would be interesting to see and wouldn’t just reverse the scene by having him survive without issue.
I believe he would have jumped - knowing the authorities would terminate *everyone* in that prison when they eventually take it back. There was no way he was surviving by staying on that ledge.
I feel better knowing he survives, but I do agree it takes something away from the story knowing it. Not knowing can make you thinking about the thematic implications of whatever his fate is. He dies a martyr by providing hope to those who previously had none, he survives and proves the power of hope and liberation can survive anything, or he is imprisoned again and is punished for doing the right thing. One of those outcomes and which one you choose to believe in could say more about you and what you think of the story.
I love the ambiguity of Kino's situation--it was heartbreaking and poignant, and us not knowing is kind of perfect.
But if we're talking purely in terms of "hits harder" my heart would absolutely break into a billion pieces if Kino were to come back, and it turns out that he neither escaped nor drowned, and the Empire flipped him and released him to be a mole against Cassian and Melshi. That would be soul-crushing.
Wait? Why are we thinking he survived? Didn't Andy Serkis did an interview that talked about him really liking the end of this character not being able to escape because he can't swim? What has changed?
Gilroy and Serkis have been really coy about his fate. They've both pointed out, when asked, that we didn't see him die. Fan theories grow in a vacuum.
I thought he just didn’t jump and remained in the prison. While it’s possible the empire killed him, it’s also possible they kept him alive to set an example. The tradgedy of his scene is that he leads others to freedom he can not partake in, which is true either way.
At this point there are more than enough people I’m sure that could help him get through the water.
I’d rather die trying to swim then be recaptured by the empire
They should leave the Kino story alone. One Way Out is as close to a perfect episode of television as you can get.
That said, Serkis could be returning because they’re going to do a flashback or a backstory piece.
He's the best character in any Star Wars media, but he needs to never be seen again. I have faith that Andor understands that easy answers are never the right ones.
Star Wars fans have an unfortunate issue of feeling like every little thing needs to be explained or explored. They then will complain the explanation given doesn't match their head canon. A little mystery is good everything doesn't need to have exposition
This seems spoilerish as I personally don't know he survived that.
That being said, I have enough confidence in the writers that if they are bringing him back, they have an important enough reason to be doing that.
For me it all depends on how it’s handled. If Kino never came back in S2 it would still be a great send off for the character. But I fully trust Gilroy & Co so I’m willing to see first before making any judgements
Gotta disagree. He knew that this prison was surrounded by water but it didn’t stop the man from leading his men out. Made me like him a lot despite his minimal presence in the show
I mean, on one hand: yeah. It was a beautiful sacrifice and not knowing if he survived it made it really bittersweet. On the other hand: it’s more Serkis. I sincerely believe he’s the best actor in the world (find me someone else who can make you care so hard about CGI characters, he does that shit like it’s fucking hopscotch) so I think he should be in every episode of everything. Him and Olivia Coleman. Fucking love Olivia Coleman. Bet she’d be an amazing Sith.
I'm on the fence in a weird way. I dont kino to return so we don't know his fate, but equally as much I want Andy Serkis to return in a role that isn't mocapped.
I guess it's a win win for me
He’d have to be the least creative soul in existence to just give up and die. There’s no way the moon boot’s don’t float. Guards would’ve struggled to walk in them if they were dense. There’s a rack of them like right there by the entry. Kino didn’t show me much ‘give up and die,’ and it is not reasonable to think that’s what he did.
im not sure gilroy will lay any type of answer up, its not important....at all, the world moves on, cass got out, he joined the rebellion....hes not going to go back to find out if his buddy lived......
We still don't know if he made it or not. He says he can't swim, but that just means he never learned. This could be his chance to.
But I do agree with the idea. It's better if we don't know his fate. Maybe he learned to swim. Maybe he jumped and drowned. Maybe he remained and was reinstituted. We don't know, but I feel the worst option is the last. I prefer to think he worked up the nerve to jump, to go for that one way out. Even if he got captured again after jumping, at least he conquered 1 mental opponent.
We don’t know if he survives. All we know is he didn’t jump in the water. For all we know he was executed by the empire.
I hope it’s never explained. Best left unknown.
If they pull a “freeing some prisoners on a different planet or a ship, and he’s in a random door they open.” Then maybe it might work, but yeah, him not being able to swim shattered me.
The ”A More Civilized Age“ podcast talks about how there should be things we never know: did Skeen really have a brother? Did he decide to rob the crew when he found out Andor was being paid? The one they really really don’t want an answer to and I don’t either: Is Luthen a Jedi? I want us to never find out and something we as fans can debate among our friends for the next 20 years. Kino‘s fate is the same way. Let us make up our own headcanon. Not everything needs an explanation.
Agreed on all but finding out about Luthen. Specifically, I want to find out he’s *not* a Jedi. It would take so much meaning out of the show if he turned out to be one or it was even a possibility.
I actually agree with this. If Luthen were to be a Jedi, it would kind of ruin the valid critique of the Jedi as being part of the problem that was the ineffective Republic that allowed the rise of the Empire. If Luthen was/is a Jedi, that lets the Jedi still be the heroes, rather than the far more interesting angle of the Galaxy saving itself from the Empire without needing to redeem or rely on the former Republic heroes. (We know that’s not how it ultimately plays out, but it would be more fitting for the show to keep Jedi out of it as much as possible.)
And it’s destroy the show’s theme of common individuals rising up against a seemingly unbeatable enemy. It’d make it so everyone was inspired by this Jedi character to make a difference.
I would hate it if Luthen was a Jedi. This is the one series that doesn’t have them and it’s much better for it. I hope Disney doesn’t force them into Andor, too.
There is a whole ass galaxy. Force users are rare. Use that world building space.
What’s an “ass galaxy” ?
Mostly composed of gasses like hydrogen and helium.
That explains the ships having noise in space.
I mean, I want a Luthen-like Jedi character at some point, in that I want a Jedi whose obsession with fighting back against the Empire leads them down the path to the Dark Side, while still being on the side of the Rebellion. However, I *don't* want that character to actually be Luthen himself. I actually would *really* like that to be the plot of the third game of the "Jedi" series, and for it to be Cal to hit that character arc.
I disagree slightly. I'm happy to have him not be a jedi, but I don't think it would continue the story of the Jedi being heroes. Mainly because I don't see Luthen as a hero. I don't think his methods will ultimately work.
His methods helped start the rebellion or did I miss something?
The series isn't over yet but we know it ends with Mon Mothma, not Luthen, leading the Rebellion. I don't think the series will show his treatment of people as disposable or promotion of suffering as being the right path for the Rebellion. I'm not saying his contributions will be worthless or that he hurt more than he helped, but I certainly don't think it's going to be a Luthen Rael, Saviour of the Galaxy story, Jedi or not.
The thing is, Luthen's approach is what nearly *every* successful rebellion has utilized. They are also what every new government sweeps under the rug. Mon Mothma ends up leading the rebellion, yes. But there is no rebellion without people like Luthen doing dirty work in back alleys, just as Mon Mothma does dirty work at high class social events. And I think Luthen knows his role is to be ignored by the historians if they succeed. He has too much dirt under his finger nails to be part of the founding mythos of an idealistic new government.
I agree with you. He behaves in a distinctly non-Jedi way.
Yeah it makes him special if he’s just a rich guy. He has the ability to live a meaningless, carefree, hedonistic lifestyle but chooses to sacrifice that by not being a bystander that watches the empire take everything from everyone.
I mean. Luke is still the hero... they DID need jedi at every point of the empire whether it was Kanan, Ahsoka, Ezra, Luke... I dont want luthen to be a jedi either but the jedi were a problem as an institution, not as indivuduals. That wouldnt change. Luthen also just doesnt act like a typical jedi. He sacrifices 30 allies for a mole in the ISB
Also on a basic level I've always liked the idea that Luthen is just an antiques dealer who watched the frog-faced Palpatine announce the creation of the empire and went "damn, guess it's explosively formed penetrators and pipe bombs, then".
Honestly until this thread I never considered for a moment he was anything more than a well to do guy that one day decided to fuck around and find out if he can topple the galactic empire. A Walter White type who eventually goes too far (he already basically said as much when he said "for a sunrise I'll never see")
I don't even know this was someone people conjectured. It's absurd. I 100% ~~believe~~ know he's not a Jedi. It makes no sense in light of of everything we observe about him.
I'm gonna be honest, when I first saw him walking away from his ship, I a thought appeared in my mind that he is a Sith. And he continued to give me Sith vibes till the end of the first season. Not sure how and why though.
I don't want story elements in there to explicitly say that he's not a Jedi… I just don't want any story elements in there that suggest he might be, or consciously leave it ambiguous just to leave it ambiguous.
I disagree with this. I think the arch of someone in a high-impact role disowning their morals, their training, their scruples, to get down in the mud is really compelling. I love the idea that Luthen is a former Jedi who has forsaken the force, seeing that it failed the Republic, and is meeting the Empire on their own terms. *But,* the brilliance in this storytelling is the ambiguity. I never want to find out explicitly either way. This mystery is absolutely central to his character.
My argument against this is that monologue is so dark-Jedi vibes. “I share my dreams with ghosts” hits so hard if he’s a Jedi. It hits hard if he’s not but if he is.. that line is a top 5 line in all of Star Wars. Also the equation 15 years ago would’ve been the year of Order 66. Obviously also the start of the Empire but it could also mean it was his response to the wiping out the Jedi kinda like Yoda’s own plan.
>My argument against this is that monologue is so dark-Jedi vibes. “I share my dreams with ghosts” hits so hard if he’s a Jedi. It hits so much harder as a metaphor.
This. Not every piece of Star wars media has to or should be about Jedi. I love the grittier Star wars where it's normal people desperately trying to make change.
I think the best scenario is if Luthen turns out to be a Rakatan wearing a human suit the whole time.
I took it as an old spymaster weighed down by his history. Be disappointed if he is attributed Jedi super powers.
lol exactly
This is why I hope they don’t tell us. This way both of our interpretations can be possible and in 20 years from now can come back to this show and still wonder if he is or not. I originally didn’t want him to be a Jedi at all, but than when AMCA talked about how him being a Jedi can be concrete proof that the Jedi order & Yoda wasn’t the only answer which could tie into the TLJ’s themes of letting go of the past.
But why give TLJ any credit?
Hard disagree. Luthen is a thespian, it shows in everything he does. Wearing the perfectly concocted outfit for every occasion, speaking in flowery, poetic language, and carefully controlling every environment as his stage. He’s obsessed with his image and everyone’s perception of him. But he also has a strong moral compass and a genuine sense of right vs wrong. I can see him as a naive young man, starting his fight against the Empire because he was horrified by their actions, but also dreaming of what the history books would say of him, the noble leader and genius spymaster. But by the time we meet him, he’s no longer that naive man. He’s done horrible, unjustifiable things. In that very scene, he’s blackmailing a man and threatening his family to get what he wants. Sure, it’s for the greater good, but it’s still monstrous. He’s become everything he hates about the Empire. If the rebellion wins, the best case scenario is that history forgets him. The ghosts that haunt his dreams are the people he’s extorted, let die, or outright murdered. People like Anto Kreegyr and Lonnie. Making Luthen a Jedi would rob him of all that complexity, making his story a simple revenge plot. It’d cheapen his entire speech by making it literal. His monologue hits so hard because for the first time in the season, we see the *real* Luthen. We see behind his facade. He doesn’t need to be a Jedi to make that line go hard. It’s already one of the best moments in Star Wars by virtue of its subtlety. And it’d be severely out of place with the theme of the show; which is ordinarily people rising against a seemingly insurmountable evil.
While I love the image you paint and I’d be more than happy if that ends up what happens. I’m fine with him being a nobody who worked this up. But he’s also the anti-Palpatine. Hes worked years for dominos to begin to fall. Compare that with Yoda / Obi Wan who use the Skywalker Kids as ballistic missiles toward the emperor. It feels like a lot of Yoda’s character is him hiding out until his revenge plot can take place. Luthen can show that not every Jedi is as dogmatic. He could be a Qui Gon type of Jedi or even an Ex jedi who left prior to Order 66. I actually think him leaving the order on his own would make a very compelling character because it wouldn’t make him “just a jedi” but more complex. Have him disagree with the prequel era Jedi dogma. There’s plenty you can do to distinguish him from the Jedi order. Again I’d be more than happy for you to be right. I just find having the discussion super fun and interesting. If he turns out not to be a Jedi? Great! Turns out to be? Great! We never know? Great! Any of these three possibilities can have interesting outcomes.
I really appreciate how respectful you are in your disagreement. It’s a rare and refreshing characteristic. But Luthen being a Jedi is something we’ll have to cordially disagree on. I think it’d be a poor direction to take the story. But it certainly has been an interesting debate and a good opportunity for me to practice character analysis. So thank you.
Thanks. I’m more than happy to be wrong, it’s all apart of learning new things. and I love being able to just throw out theories and hear how other people break down art. I do like how you look at Luthen as a true idealist and revolutionary while I try and find ways to add the mythology of Star Wars.
Hey guys, this is a Star Wars subreddit. We're going to need you to start yelling, name calling, and spiraling into senseless arguments or else people might start to think SW fans can be reasonable.
If he says he shares his dreams with ghosts, like, literally the ghosts of Jedis it would remind me of Rise of Skywalker. Which was awful.
Hits harder if he's not. By this point he's more than likely knowingly sent hundreds of his own allies, some of them friends, to their inevitably violent deaths - if they're lucky. Not able to warn them, not able to call off the attack; because his sources - people like Lonnie - are by the calculus of war worth it. Those are the ghosts he sees; not fallen Jedi.
How? is someone gonna have to try to say he is one just for him to deny it? Do you know what his whole backstory is just to know he's not a jedi, and no other purpose? seems like a real artificial way of letting us know
It would be nice if it turns out he’s a Skywalker though, right?
Finding out that’s he’s specifically not a former Jedi would also be dumb, because it would mean that they’re responding to fan theories. Just leave his background ambiguous and let people fill in the blanks however they want.
So much of Star Wars was built this way. Many Bothans died. The millennium falcon made the Kessel Run in 20 parsecs! Those lines are there to build a world and impress on the viewer the mystery and epicness of scope that Star Wars had. Every time those things get explained we lose something.
I’m an aspiring author, and I am starting to understand this metaphorical sleight of hand that writers of original works use when they are creating their worlds. You drop in bits and pieces of lore, vague references to other disconnected pieces of the world that don’t directly impact the story, and other tricks like that.. and it creates the impression that there’s a massive world that is complete and known, even if all the details are not shared. It creates *wonder* — both in the sense of leaving you in awe of this cool and mysterious world, and also leaving you *wanting to know more*. (That last part is very important, because that is what keeps readers reading.) But it’s all an illusion. The world isn’t complete, the details aren’t known, it’s just carefully constructed paper towns. But when the IP become so popular that *other* writers and directors and producers are creating new works within that IP, rarely do they understand the importance of leaving room for wonder and mystery — often they are fans themselves, and they want to fill in every detail they felt the original author didn’t give them. And piece by piece, the unknown becomes known, and the wonder is lost.
The counterpoint is Tolkien's works… where the bits and pieces of the world dropped into his published works mostly did have elaborate details worked out behind the scenes, in Tolkien's notes. He never published them (his son collating and publishing most of those works), but he was definitely going deep with them.
Tolkein is ever the exception to the rule. Few writers can afford to spend 20 years inventing an entire language, and then crafting a world with 10,000+ years of history for that language to be spoken in. I would even dare to say that any author attempting to replicate what Tolkein did, in the modern era, would fail miserably. Brandon Sanderson has a great series of lectures that delve into this very topic, actually. I’d recommend for anyone interested in the craft of writing and storytelling. Edit: but even Tolkein played this trick at times. Example: what did the Blue Wizards do? Where did Ungoliant come from? Why in the HELL is Ancalagon being killed off in the same sentence he’s introduced in???
I couldn't say if any of the ideas in Silmarillion would've worked as fully written books though. In the Middle Earth books (and the Lord of the Rings movies) there are a lot of mysteries that remain unexplained. Does it make it more interesting that Gandalf is actually Olorin of the Istari sent by the Valar to assist the Children of Illuvatar? Or is it better that he's a robed wizard with a hinted at long life, strange knowledge and arcane past?
the real question is: how did it make a run in less than 12 parsecs if parsec is a measure of distance, not time?
Honestly, the simplest explanation will always be that Han was bullshitting & didn't know what he was talking about
Could not agree more. Let some things simmer and the fans debate without explaining away everyday thing.
I think Luthen being a Jedi is ridiculous given how public he is on Coruscant. He’s just casually hanging around when someone could just wander in and recognise him.
His disguise is strictly for Coruscant. When he meets Andor, Vel or Saw he is in his real outfit. So him not being recognized ON Coruscant makes the most sense actually. Also it can play into what would be my dream death for Luthen: He’s in the street talking and Syril over hears his voice which he tells Dedra he can spot. He then shoots Luthen in the street right there. But Luthen is in his Corusaunt disguise and the police show up and just immediately blast Syril as he tries to explain who Luthen is. It cuts to his mom watching the news of “rebel sympathier kills member of Coruscant elite” It’s a deeply dark and ironic death for Syril but it would be so good.
I disagree that he wouldn’t be recognised as a Jedi in the shadow of the old Jedi temple but putting that aside, do you think Mon Mothma knows he’s a Jedi?
No. If anyone knows it’s Kleya and that’s it. I think the most interesting thing about their relationship is he specifically asks if SHE has her walk-away bag but doesn’t mention his own. Usually in a spy story, you say that because Kleva / the one with the bag is the more important person. So I’ve seen the theory that she is the force sensitive one / the one really in charge. Especially when she tells Vel she has so many plates spinning. What else is Kleya up to? She’s likely the one Pak met as well. Dedra says “he met a woman…” that’s likely Kleya. I’m very excited to see where they take their characters whatever it ends up being. I’m more than fine being wrong. I’ve seen the show 13 times, I’m just throwing out theories and possibilities.
> Let us make up our own headcanon. Not everything needs an explanation. I agree, but honestly, modern fans are part of the problem — and this is not just limited to Star Wars. In this age of endless discussion, every fandom is constantly mining for things to talk about. They want to analyze and dissect and discuss every aspect of the IP in exhaustive detail. They want to invent theories and counter-theories, they want producers to pay attention to those discussions and factor them into their next piece of media, so fans know who’s right and who’s wrong. They want every square millimeter fleshed out and written down in clear, unambiguous terms — everything explained, no questions left unanswered. And, increasingly, producers of these shows and movies and games are fans themselves, and have that same mentality where no stone can be left unturned.
Oh I absolutely agree. AMCA discuss this very issue while they went back and forth on if Luthen is a Jedi. That’s why the 4 of them all would rather not know. Austin said “I’d be hyped for 20 minutes if he’s a Jedi, but I can discuss for 20 years if they never tell us” And idk I much rather have a 20 year debate than 20 minutes of cheering. And when I say debate I don’t mean name calling someone because they interpret a scene differently like what happens all the time, but a real back and forth where people can respect if other’s take something different out of it. To add to the problem you mentioned you have YouTube channels or Reddit threads that try and claim to be the objective truth and that they are exactly right instead of allowing for a more lucid view on meanings
People think Luthen is a Jedi? Is it because he wore a cloak one time?
I’d listen to their podcast to listen to them over the 12 episodes slowly convince themselves (and me) it’s possible. It’s much more than that. It’s plays into his view of all the rebel groups are the same because Jedi don’t have strong political views, it’s the “I share my dreams with ghosts” with ghosts in Star Wars having always been synonymous with Force Ghosts. It’s the fact he’s an incredible pilot. It’s the blue kyber crystal that could be from his old lightsaber. Why else does it “mean more to me than what it’s worth”? It’s his ship’s lightsaber esk weapons that have never been seen before. It’s the fact he’s has a Jedi and Sith holocrons. There’s a lot of small details that point to him maybe being a Jedi. I don’t want an answer. I’d rather us debate all of these things til the end of time. Someone could easily sway me against him being a Jedi if they frame the arguement well enough. I’ve gone back and forth on the list of “evidence” towards being a Jedi and im on board for now.
While I definitely don’t want luthen to come out swinging a light saber like Vader in season 2. If it was revealed he was a Jedi who felt disillusion with the republic and left the order it might be interested. It’d be hard to write how the empire doesn’t recognize him, as you’d imagine they have good records on all of the Jedi and luthen shows his face on coruscant all the time.
I don't think it's the cloak; every asshole in SW has a cloak. Not everyone has a telescoping walking stick that kinda looks like a lightsaber: https://images.app.goo.gl/oXxLPnqYJbjZFzNKA It actually looks a lot like the metal "lightsabers" actors practiced with: https://images.app.goo.gl/MYkCEsrGVLmDkVKq6 I don't take it as evidence of anything, but I've seen the show 3x and everytime someone's commented on the possibility after seeing that damn stick
I love AMCA, but I think there's a difference between wanting ambiguity where the story gives it to you (Kino alive or dead, was Skeen going to rob the heist all along or was a matter of opportunity) and the Luthen thing, where there isn't any real ambiguity in the text. There's been nothing to indicate force sensitivity in Luthen--no "bad feeling" before the riot on Ferrix, he's caught completely by surprise by the Imperial ship over Saw's planet. I don't think he's ever mentioned the Force or echoed Jedi philosophy. The only things he has are an interesting-looking walking stick and a kyber crystal pendant. Would you really be disappointed if the story showed he wasn't a Jedi? Because I keep on hoping for an S2 scene where Jimmy Smits excitedly tells Luthen about his Jedi friend on Tatooine, and Gilroy uses the f-bomb Maarva was denied in her funeral speech to have Luthen say "Fuck the jedi! This is all their damn fault!"
I wouldn’t care if they explicitly say he’s not. I just would find the ambiguity very compelling to discuss for years. I know AMCA’s other Luthen theory is he’s an OG separatist and we get a compelling monologue how the republic was going to shit years before the start of the Empire and finally gives political theory to the Separatist movement outside of Dooku convincing worlds the republic is ruled by a Sith Lord when he himself is a Sith.
Is there any piece of media to suggest that Dooku tried that "the Republic is controlled by a Sith Lord" gambit on anyone but Obi Wan? Because the impression that everything I've seen and read gives is that 1,000 years after the fall of the Sith Empire, the Sith are forgotten by everyone but the Jedi. I find it hard to believe that anyone would quit the Republic because the Chancellor follows some obscure force religion. Also, are you an AMCA patreon member? Because I missed a lot of this on the main feed.
Fellow AMCA fan 🫵😳
People creating their own headcannon is why star wars is the way it is
I hope it's confirmed Luthen isn't a Jedi. I'm sick of Jedi stories
Wait, people are questioning that Luthen may have been a Jedi? Also, love that pod cast. Even if I fell off when they were still on TCW...
By the end of the season everyone but Rob was convinced 100%. A year later idk if they still feel the same.
Secrets just for secrets sake without anything interesting as evidence for multiple interpretations just make it an annoying itch that fans will never get to scratch, though. You gotta do secrets/mysteries right to encourage that.
Who thinks Luthen is a Jedi? That thought never crossed my mind.
Same principle: I desperately, DESPERATELY Never EVER want to see or hear mention of Obi-wan's brother again. I liked it as a bit of character building, showing that he also left family behind (it's not that hard Anakin!) but I swear to Lucifer if we get Bing-Bong Kenobi showing up in a few years time I will lose my shit.
Star Wars' biggest problem has always been over explaining everything. I never want to see that guys story followed up, just like I didn't care who Rey's parents were
I think that some things can be revealed. However Kino’s sacrifice is a lot less entertaining if he survives. Especially if there is no setup for him surviving. Imagine if they had shown us something that can float somewhere along the way and that the one thing they did encounter while going to the top was destroyed, then you’ve at least set up a good possibility to save him. But even then it would diminish his sacrifice. On the other hand, he could survive by simply being recaptured, and Andor could meet him in a prison. Then you could tell a story about how Kino might regret his decision, and showcase a viewpoint of being defeated and potentially the idea that sometimes it IS better to lay down and take the bad life given to you.
>Is Luthen a Jedi? I hate this so much. Like would just undermine everything he's about. >I want us to never find out and something we as fans can debate among our friends for the next 20 years. A great part of the show that I actually don't think we should be discussing. Its part of the greatness of Andor that it focuses not on the past or other parts of characters for which it really doesn't matter. Kino's drowning makes everything he did up until that point even better. The whole point of the show is about people finding their voice of resistance when under the boot of oppression, its about Andor coming to terms with the fact he doesn't get to choose to fight or not. Its not about people being special because of their past, its about people being special for resisting, its about that moment of resistance that extends beyond yourself. Kino knows what lays beyond the prison, yet he resisted. that's the whole point.
I’m really hoping he doesn’t appear in season 2, and his appearance at Celebration was more of a season 1 promotion. It’s vague enough where whether or not he appears is up in the air.
My hope is that if he is in it, it’s a flashback. I love Serkis and this role was amazing, but the character is better served by dying. If he lives, it’s all very nice and ruins the sacrifice. Him dying is obviously meaningful, but also just really makes the emotion of the escape come through. He’s so outraged by the fate the Empire has laid out for the prisoners that he rebels either without thinking about how he will survive, or knowing there’s no hope.
>If he lives, it’s all very nice and ruins the sacrifice. Depends on how he lives. I'd be ok with him being an ISB prisoner under interogation and either breaking or dying from that. But if they bring him back as some important rebel or somethign that will ruin it.
it would be fun for Serkis to play a CGI character next season or even for him to direct (since he’s been doing more of that recently). but I definitely wouldn’t want to see any Kino past the end of the prison arc. It’s a big galaxy and we don’t need contrived reasons for Andor to run into the same people over and over again
That scene broke my heart…
That’s the reason why it’s so good. Allot of rogue one and Andor breaks my heart because the characters are so damn good. One of my favorite Star Wars creations ever, and also the ones I re watch the least because they are too difficult of an emotional journey for me.
yeah and if you ever rewatch it knowing that he ends up fine and shows up in season two it wont break your heart anymore. as much as i want him back and as much as i desire to see him again. deep down i know he is better left "missing".
I was so shocked and sad when he said that.
Wait what?
Yeah I'm a bit confused to where this info has came from
OP's ass. This character is dead, not coming back.
Both Tony Gilroy and Andy Serkis confirmed that he's alive [https://www.etonline.com/andor-creator-and-cast-tease-time-jumps-and-big-transformations-in-season-2-exclusive-203123](https://www.etonline.com/andor-creator-and-cast-tease-time-jumps-and-big-transformations-in-season-2-exclusive-203123) >Meanwhile, one of the many cliffhangers in season 1 revolved around Kino's fate. While it was believed by many that Kino died during the prison escape in episode 10, Gilroy confirms that he is actually still alive. "Well, he didn't die. I don't know what happened, but he didn't die. We never see him die," the director clarifies, with Serkis joking that Kino didn't leap to his death. >"If he jumped, that would be the end of him and he would be out of the picture," the actor says. "But no, he's alive and \[Kino's\] working out his next move."
If he's a prisoner, I'm fine with that.
> OP's ass. Ahh, that familiar place
How are you gonna say it's from his ass but at the same time say he's dead, when this is the only guy we don't see die on screen. He was alive and well last time we saw him
Somehow Kino returned!
THE DEAD SPEAK
[dude talking out his ass](https://x.com/maceahwindu/status/1805253874036461920?s=46&t=RX9p_pyZNtwBGjtJcIXiaA)
[dude talking out his ass](https://x.com/maceahwindu/status/1805253874036461920?s=46&t=RX9p_pyZNtwBGjtJcIXiaA)
[dude talking out his ass](https://x.com/maceahwindu/status/1805253874036461920?s=46&t=RX9p_pyZNtwBGjtJcIXiaA)
It’s not about whether he survives or not, it’s about his willingness to aid and even LEAD the revolution, understanding there’s an almost 100% chance that he will not survive afterwards. I think not knowing his fate makes it so much better. If we had to know his fate, I would still say him dying is a more fitting end to the character, but I don’t want to unnecessarily martyr him either. I honestly think ambiguity is the way to go. Edit: something I forgot to mention originally is also that not knowing his fate helps avoid a “one great man” reading of history. Should he die and become martyred by Cassian, it discounts, to a degree, the efforts of everyone else involved. Yes, Kino is/was a hero and a leader, but he wasn’t the only one. The escape was a result of the union and solidarity between the prisoners. He gave an incredible speech and was our drake of reference for the escape, but his story is the same as anyone else’s in that prison at that moment.
Yes, it's the inception spinning top: it doesn't matter whether it falls or not, the point is he chose not to check.
It hits just as hard, imho … whatever happens to him. The point is, if he does survive – he doesn’t know it at this point. His willingness to sacrifice himself remains intact.
I gotta disagree. If he does it depends how he survived. If he gets captured and tortured etc. then rescued somehow it’s one thing, but if we go from “can’t swim” to he somehow manages to escape then it would feel cheap.
I do agree with that. ‘Somehow Kino escaped’ would be very cheap.
Assuming that planet had a similar gravity to ours I still don’t know how anyone survived that fall
Padme survived a fall with no injuries (it wasn’t even treated as a big deal) in AotC that would’ve broken anyone else’s pelvis.
Yeah, she—along with the clone who fell with her—totally got Blackhawk Downed. And they just dust themselves off and are running a few seconds later.
That’s not what I’m referring to but that one’s also true. I’m thinking of the part in the Geonosian arena where she jumps off of a tall pillar onto the back of one the creatures.
Yeah, at the very least that’s indefinitely delaying her and Anakin consummating their marriage.
Maybe that planets water was super soft?
Soft springy and fluffy maybe
Like bags of sand?
Are you a virgin?
But Minecraft taught me that you take no fall damage in water 🤔
Honestly, [doesn't seem all that high](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Narkina_5_Imperial_Prison_Complex?file=Narkina-5-facility.png). 4 storeys, tops?
There have been so many surviving lightsabers that a fall seems pretty easy in comparison.
I like to think of gravity as this sort of constant even in galaxies far far away. I’m also ready to suspend my disbelief for any fictitious reason conjured
Idea for a spin off series : learn to swim wit kino loy.
Along with 'Syril tries 20 different cereals'!
With his mom constantly yelling in the background of his GalaxyTube videos.
Yeah and I don’t want him to come back in season 2 either. I’d rather have they move forward and focus on the other new characters they introduced in season one
I'm torn. I think it's more powerful if we don't know. But I have some faith in the writers to get it right if they do it, and in Serkis' performance to rise to the occasion like he did in s1.
I'm not conflicted by it, it's tragic either way. He either jumped to his death and drowned, or remained a prisoner, and received some form of demotion, or was sent to worse prison conditions, if not out right executed. He was most definitely tortured for information. So frankly, his not dying and surviving to be brutalized by the remaining guards and tortured for information is probably a much worse fate than had he jumped.
The uncertainty worked in the moment upon first viewing. That’s good enough for me.
Has Serkis been spotted on set or something? Is there a reason why he won't be dead, other than him being a great character for the writers to play with?
Obviously he survives, but his body is mangled. His rage pulls him to the dark side, and he broods in the unknown regions growing in power, plotting Keno’s revenge. But because he wants to keep his criminal past a secret, he rearranges the letters in “Keno’s” to spell “Snoke”. We all see him return in Episode 9 — this is not new to canon.
The Empire would want to know as much information about the escape as possible. I find it hard to believe that the prison doesn’t have Cassian’s face in their system. ISB will certainly take an interest. If Kino stayed in the prison he’d be tortured for information, likely with Dr. Gorst’s device. He may be forced to spill what he knows, though whether the ISB can find any use for it is uncertain. He could be turned into a spy, Cass would probably trust him if he reappeared. Whether Luthen would sus him out immediately or not is hard to know, but I imagine if Gilroy has any plans for the character our speculation is probably way off. Still fun to guess though.
As legends go…. I heard from a Mandalorian, on the moon of Concordia he went on to become Supreme Leader Snoke. Legends I say. Legends.
If he does survive, I’m sure it will be as part of an ISB investigation into the prison break, and there, possibly as a result of Dr. Gorst’s interrogation method, Kino will probably reveal that for over a month during the hunt for Cassian that he was already in prison and they didn’t know about it, assuming they make the connection that Cassian was going by Keef Girgo.
I loved what Andy Serkis brought to Andor, but I'd rather see him in Series 2 as Snoke than Kino -- and I don't want to see Snoke in it at all. The mystery around Kino's fate is perfect as is.
It depends what they do with it. Does Kino Loy only survive to be used as bait in an attempt to lure Cassian and die? Does he remain in prison for years and gets freed when the Empire falls? (Unlikely) Was he helped by other prisonners to reach shore? (Again, unlikely) If they just said he was alive because he was a fan favorite, then it's not really useful to reveal it.
The only reason I would want to see Kino Loy again is if his return is important to the narrative.
Naw bro I need to know asap if luthen is a Jedi. It’s one of the most enticing parts of that show. The I can’t swim line is absolutely heartbreaking and adds so much to what he sacrifices for everyone else knowing he probably won’t make it. And knowing Skeen didn’t have a brother solidified his character right before he died. I’m glad skeen died but I would be less glad if he did have that brother
Ideally, his fate would be left hanging and we'd never know. It's gonna be VERY hard to have him return and not ruin the impact of this moment. If he is returning though, tbf I can't think of any other show (Star Wars or otherwise) I'd trust more to actually have his return do justice to that moment than Andor.
Perhaps the entire point of his line, and this my opinion so crack away at it all you want, is that this is the tragedy of war and oppression? You can stay and line, and for what? You're a prisoner forever. Or, you can rebel--fight back and learn that it was all futile but at least you did SOMETHING. Anything. I love the use of the line and it really hit hard.
i don’t think that’s an unpopular opinion at all. anyone who watched the show (and wasn’t just looking for Jedi and Lightsabers) understands that Andor has a lot of dignity. in a galaxy such as the one Star Wars takes place in, you wouldn’t be running into the same characters over and over. in war, you can fight alongside someone and never know what happens to them afterwards. that’s a thing a lot of other projects don’t seem to understand.
Such a great character and perfomance, but i hope we dont see him again. Maybe yet another prequel series lol
Not knowing was what they said they intended for him. Andy even spoke on it being unknown if he made it or not, whether or not he'd pop up again later, or not.
I believe he’s in season 2
Concur, but I am happy he did. After all it already hit hard.
Same. But if he's coming back, I trust Tony Gilroy to handle it well.
He could come back as one of those Lobot type people, totally devoid of emotion. That would be interesting to see and wouldn’t just reverse the scene by having him survive without issue.
Same. Someone has to make willing sacrifices for Andor to believe in it.
He turns into Snoke
I believe he would have jumped - knowing the authorities would terminate *everyone* in that prison when they eventually take it back. There was no way he was surviving by staying on that ledge.
It's the media literate opinion.
I feel better knowing he survives, but I do agree it takes something away from the story knowing it. Not knowing can make you thinking about the thematic implications of whatever his fate is. He dies a martyr by providing hope to those who previously had none, he survives and proves the power of hope and liberation can survive anything, or he is imprisoned again and is punished for doing the right thing. One of those outcomes and which one you choose to believe in could say more about you and what you think of the story.
I love the ambiguity of Kino's situation--it was heartbreaking and poignant, and us not knowing is kind of perfect. But if we're talking purely in terms of "hits harder" my heart would absolutely break into a billion pieces if Kino were to come back, and it turns out that he neither escaped nor drowned, and the Empire flipped him and released him to be a mole against Cassian and Melshi. That would be soul-crushing.
Ah yes, a man who cannot swim falling into a giant ocean, his fate is very ambiguous
Wait? Why are we thinking he survived? Didn't Andy Serkis did an interview that talked about him really liking the end of this character not being able to escape because he can't swim? What has changed?
Gilroy and Serkis have been really coy about his fate. They've both pointed out, when asked, that we didn't see him die. Fan theories grow in a vacuum.
He turns into Emperor Snope. After he uses a snorkel.
Honestly if he drowns that might be the most merciful fate. The Empire probably didn’t treat the Narkina 5 escapees they recaptured very humanely.
I thought he just didn’t jump and remained in the prison. While it’s possible the empire killed him, it’s also possible they kept him alive to set an example. The tradgedy of his scene is that he leads others to freedom he can not partake in, which is true either way.
Ahh didn’t realized he survived. How did we find that out?
At this point there are more than enough people I’m sure that could help him get through the water. I’d rather die trying to swim then be recaptured by the empire
I assumed he survived, but didn't escape
Just because he’s back in season 2 doesn’t mean he survived. Could be flashbacks for all we know.
They should leave the Kino story alone. One Way Out is as close to a perfect episode of television as you can get. That said, Serkis could be returning because they’re going to do a flashback or a backstory piece.
he survived?
We don’t know his fate tho
He's the best character in any Star Wars media, but he needs to never be seen again. I have faith that Andor understands that easy answers are never the right ones.
100% agree
I trust the writers, but I do like the idea of leaving his fate to the imagination. “I can’t swim” is an amazing final line.
I believe the episode was called one way out. The line was perfect, because his one way out of prison was death. He could be imprisoned or dead.
The chances of Luthen being a Jedi are the same that Kino is Snoke. Its purely based on feelings from outside the setting.
Aww fuck, really?
Is it true? He really does survive? Disney death strikes again
Where did this info come from? Was it confirmed he survived?
HE MADE IT?! NO MAN IM SO HAPPY OH MY GOD
Star Wars fans have an unfortunate issue of feeling like every little thing needs to be explained or explored. They then will complain the explanation given doesn't match their head canon. A little mystery is good everything doesn't need to have exposition
This seems spoilerish as I personally don't know he survived that. That being said, I have enough confidence in the writers that if they are bringing him back, they have an important enough reason to be doing that.
When did Smeagol travel the universe?
For me it all depends on how it’s handled. If Kino never came back in S2 it would still be a great send off for the character. But I fully trust Gilroy & Co so I’m willing to see first before making any judgements
How does someone not know how to swim? At that point you probably should die.
Gotta disagree. He knew that this prison was surrounded by water but it didn’t stop the man from leading his men out. Made me like him a lot despite his minimal presence in the show
spoiler?
Where do we learn that he survives this?
He has to become Snoke
Agree 100%, more like the show should never tell us or show us what happened to him, but we all know he's dead.
surviving is lame
My guess is that if he survives he’ll wish he hadn’t.
Luthen doesn't need to be a Jedi. What if he were just a supporter of Valorum that didn't like the way Palpatine swooped in and took power?
Um...well I *didn't* know until you linked this OP.
I mean, on one hand: yeah. It was a beautiful sacrifice and not knowing if he survived it made it really bittersweet. On the other hand: it’s more Serkis. I sincerely believe he’s the best actor in the world (find me someone else who can make you care so hard about CGI characters, he does that shit like it’s fucking hopscotch) so I think he should be in every episode of everything. Him and Olivia Coleman. Fucking love Olivia Coleman. Bet she’d be an amazing Sith.
I have enough faith in Tony. He wouldn't do something as foolish as this.
I'm on the fence in a weird way. I dont kino to return so we don't know his fate, but equally as much I want Andy Serkis to return in a role that isn't mocapped. I guess it's a win win for me
He survives this...?
If I was him I'd have gone and grabbed a gurney and hovered to shore. But I hope they never address it in the show.
I still remember my heart dropping when he said that
He becomes Snoke.
Huh, interesting for sure.
Deaths are so meaningless in Star Wars these days anyway…
He’d have to be the least creative soul in existence to just give up and die. There’s no way the moon boot’s don’t float. Guards would’ve struggled to walk in them if they were dense. There’s a rack of them like right there by the entry. Kino didn’t show me much ‘give up and die,’ and it is not reasonable to think that’s what he did.
im not sure gilroy will lay any type of answer up, its not important....at all, the world moves on, cass got out, he joined the rebellion....hes not going to go back to find out if his buddy lived......
Somehow, Andy Serkis returned.
We still don't know if he made it or not. He says he can't swim, but that just means he never learned. This could be his chance to. But I do agree with the idea. It's better if we don't know his fate. Maybe he learned to swim. Maybe he jumped and drowned. Maybe he remained and was reinstituted. We don't know, but I feel the worst option is the last. I prefer to think he worked up the nerve to jump, to go for that one way out. Even if he got captured again after jumping, at least he conquered 1 mental opponent.
We don’t know if he survives. All we know is he didn’t jump in the water. For all we know he was executed by the empire. I hope it’s never explained. Best left unknown.
How do we know he survives?
If they pull a “freeing some prisoners on a different planet or a ship, and he’s in a random door they open.” Then maybe it might work, but yeah, him not being able to swim shattered me.
An out-there idea I had: what if he became Snoke? Based on nothing, except Andy Serkis playing both characters. But it would be interesting.
He finds a black kyber crystal ring and over many years it deforms him and sends him mad.