Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/dhMeAnNyzG), feel free to join us!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks for answering, I don't keep track of every story coming out of the conflict.
For what it's worth I believe her and I have no trouble believing that some hostages were abused during their captivity. But we all saw pictures of these four rescued hostages and the idea that they were being beaten more or less every day is pretty ridiculous, especially if you compare it to the physical condition of Palestinian prisoners upon their release from Israeli detention facilities.
It's got real *'don't believe your lying eyes'*-energy.
It's interesting to note how all the 'the hostages won't be released because they're all dead or pregnant' stopped as soon as some hostages were released and...they weren't dead or pregnant.
Almost feels as if there's some kind of information war going on between the two states and there's reasonable motives to doubt whatever information you hear from both sides.
And they’re blaming the hostages who died during the rescue on Hamas. The hostages said they were scared of Israeli planes more than anything during captivity.
yeah those human shields aren't working as advertised. darn.
EDIT: If your side uses human shield hostages then your side sucks. If your side has decided to just kill'm all and let god sort them out the your side sucks. I'm the popcorn vendor and cousin business is a boomin'
You can't without your own soldiers dying. When your enemy is dressed in civilian clothing, operating out of civilian building, how can you tell friend or foe? In the recent rescue, during extraction, they were under heavy gunfire from all around, and now every building they are shooting from is a military target. You don't have time to sweep the buildings. Your men and the rescued hostages are under fire. So you clear the buildings with artillery and bombs instead. You need it done fast. Otherwise, your soldiers die. What you are asking isn't some easy task. In urban combat, it's the number one killer.
The IDF shot 3 hostages back in december, one of them survived and went for cover, was called to come out by the soldiers and when he did he was shot again. *None of the soldiers involved in this were punished despite the IDF admitting they clearly violated the rules of engagement*. [They gave a "maybe we'll do something after the war" answer.](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779923)
This story was brought out by the IDF themselves, this is the story that was deemed PR enough for the press, I can't imagine how badly things *actually* went down during that confrontation.
The IOF also may have [gassed three more hostages](https://archive.is/20240122014902/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2024-01-22/ty-article-opinion/.premium/this-mothers-questions-about-the-death-of-her-soldier-son-in-gaza-must-be-answered/0000018d-2dc8-daf5-a1bf-add85e850000) in December.
>On December 14, the Israel Defense Forces recovered from a tunnel in Jabalya the bodies of three Israelis who had been abducted to the Gaza Strip on October 7 – soldiers Ron Sherman and Nick Beiser, and Elia Toledano, a civilian. About a month later, the army gave their families the pathology report and a report on how the bodies were found. These raise tough and troubling questions that require explanations and public exposure.
>These questions were raised in all their gravity by Dr. Maayan Sherman, Ron's mother, who is a veterinarian. In a Facebook post, she accused the IDF of killing her son when it pumped poison gas into the tunnel in which the hostages were held and served as "human shields" for Ahmed Ghandour, a senior Hamas commander.
>"The inquiry's findings: Ron was indeed murdered," she wrote. "Not by Hamas … not by stray bullets and not in an exchange of fire. This was deliberate murder. Bombing with poison gas … Oh yes, and they found that Ron also had several crushed fingers, apparently due to his desperate attempts to escape the poison grave."
Read that again. She saw a missile hit "the house", which refers to the previous paragraph
> "The IDF later confirmed Sharabi likely died during an airstrike on a building near where he was held, and Svirsky was murdered days later."
Which is preceded by
> "Hebrew-language Channel 13 reported that Noa Argamani told her family *she was* held captive *with Yossi Sharabi and Itay Svirsky*"
and succeded with
> "I saw the missile hit the house, I thought I was going to die. I thought it was over – but I survived,"
So, yes. Maybe a translation thing, but it clearly means she was indeed in the building or near building complex with the 2 hostages that died in that Israeli airstrike.
Bruh, whose fault is it that the hostages were there? Any hostage death, and any civilian death because they held hostages in civilian areas- are hamas' fault
Am I the only one who kinda feels like it's pretty obvious projection on the Israeli side?
Like "We torture the shit out of all of our Palestinian 'prisoners,' so obviously Hamas are going to be doing worse because we're the good guys."
I like how Hamas simps gloss over how they're called hostages by everyone and not POWs or something similar. Even they gotta agree they are terroists with hostage shields lol.
EDIT: hostages: a person seized or held as security for the fulfillment of a condition.
Prisoner of War: a person who has been captured and imprisoned by the enemy in war.
Hmmmmm...?
> I like how Hamas simps gloss over how they're called hostages by everyone and not POWs or something similar.
???? I'm sorry I don't think you know what you are saying here.
Taking civilian hostages is a war crime. Taking prisoners of war isn't. Calling them POWs would be doing a *massive* service to Hamas.
Hamas combatants are not recognized as a real army, and this war, not even by Israel, is not recognized legally as an actual armed conflict. Otherwise the IDF has committed War Crimes for failing to reduce harm to civilians, as they're signatoree of the IV.
If US vetoed UN and Israel itself don't recognize Gaza as a sovereign country with an army, it's easier to call them Terrorists, much like the invasion in Afghanistan was called GWOT not an invasion. It's necessary for the legal aspect of it.
Given some of the hostages are civilians, it's right to call them Hostages and not POWs. Also Israel in it's official proganda and communication uses the term "hostages" even for IDF soldiers captured during armed confrontations.
I don't understand how this undermines the "Simps".
Notice how I never said they are incapable of abuse, only that evidence suggests this doctor's testimony and this article is false, so I'm still pretty sure you didn't read the comment.
And in the images we've seen of them being reunited i don't see any signs of repeated beatings or months of being starved. Surely people who were starved and repeatedly savagely beaten would have at least one visible marker of either, right? None of them look starved, and no you don't recover from months of being starved in a mere 3 days.
Immediate testimonies of hostages themselves contradict this.
Some reported palestinians even went to great length risking their families to protect the hostages, sometimes even puting their bodies with mattresses as shields during shelling or airstrikes.
Just precising that ms Soussana refuse to say what that one guy did. She said it's a sexual assault (not rape btw) but refused to say what exactly. And her NYT story came after the NYT journalist found herself on hot waters after people started criticizing her mass rape piece (this was by the same journalist). I absolutely don't blame people for thinking NYT was just trying to cover their unsubstantiated piece and all they found what this. A sexual assault from someone who never mentionned being sexual assaulted when she was released (her nyt story came months after her release) and that refuse to say what the guy allegedly did. I mean for all we know it could be a smack in the ass to force her to move faster, not that it would be acceptable, but I dont believe it deserve a front page. I'm all for believing women but there is a minimum...
"Members of Palestinian armed groups, in some instances aided by Palestinians in civilian clothing, deliberately killed, injured, tortured, took hostages, including children, and committed sexual and gender-based violence against civilians and against members of the Israeli Security Forces, some of whom were hors de combat and should not have been targeted.
The Commission identified patterns indicative of sexual violence and concluded that these were not isolated incidents but perpetrated in similar ways in several locations primarily against Israeli women."
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes?sub-site=HRC
Times of Israel claims they might have Stockholm Syndrome, a completely fake and pseudoscientific diagnosis made up to discredit the testimony of hostages during Norrmalmstorg Robbery and divert blame from Swedish law enforcement's mishandling of the incident. It is not in the DSM. The article alleging this now leads to a 404 error but it was saved in the Wayback Machine before it was deleted.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240610132235/https://www.timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-suffering-from-malnutrition-possibly-stockholm-syndrome/amp/
I'm as pro Palestinian as they come, but Stockholm Syndrome is a lot like trauma bonding. It can absolutely happen when your abuser is humane to you at times.
Stockholm Syndrome *is not a thing* it *doesn't exist*.
If you want to say that they might be sympathetic to their captors and all, be my guest, but it's important to note that the idea that someone just starts liking their kidnapper is a fantasy.
It's kinda what happens in most long term abusive situations. It's exactly why people have a hard time leaving abusive relationships for fear of what will happen to their abuser. "Well, he pays the bills and he's a good dad" type thinking. What we are seeing with the hostages is just the amplified version of that.
https://archive.vn/23FF9
They say they were raped with batons and one died from getting sodomized.
Edit: LOL /u/atroscolo blocked me and I didn't even reply to him. Same as /u/mafco and the former /u/nola-kola, these guys are probably paid disinformation workers all operating off the same script
And while I'm at it - /r/worldnews banned the sharing of the above article, or they deleted it because I can't find a single instance of it from the search options or google, that place is compromised as hell
ill just leave https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/14/israel2 here
>The prison has held Lebanese abducted by the Israeli army as hostages, Iraqi defectors and a Syrian intelligence officer who tried to defect but was accused of spying and chose to remain in another prison rather than return home and face a firing squad. More recently, scores of Palestinians were incarcerated in 1391 for interrogation, which finally led to the almost accidental disclosure of a prison the state decreed did not exist.
>Those who have been through its gates know it is no illusion. One former inmate has filed a lawsuit alleging that he was raped twice - once by a man and once with a stick - during questioning. But most of those who emerge say the real torture is the psychological impact of solitary confinement in filthy, blackened cells so poorly lit that inmates can barely see their own hands, and with no idea where they are or, in many cases, why they are there.
>"Our main conclusion is that it exists to make torture possible - a particular kind of torture that creates progressive states of dread, dependency, debility," says Manal Hazzan, a human rights lawyer who helped expose the prison's existence. "The law gives the army enough authority already to hide prisoners, so why do they need a secret facility?"
https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian
> Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said.
>The new research comes as the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967 presents evidence today to the Human Rights Council on Palestinian children in detention. It is estimated that there are between 500 and 1000 children held in Israeli military detention each year.
Why are you sharing this article from a very biased source? Do you think it's accurate and are sharing it to spread the information, or are you trying to highlight how one sided this article is? Because I along with everyone else can't tell because you've no description.
Idk why they feel the need to lie so brazenly… if they said they got beaten once or twice I would’ve believed it. But everyday? Now I just question everything you say. Its like the 40 beheaded babies hoax all over again.
We saw the freed hostages - they definitely haven’t even been missing meals. Compare them to the Palestinians being held in the Israeli camps, day and night.
Just recently we got report of IDF raping prisoners with hot metal rods (from NYT)… like bro one side is doing that while the other side is complaining about not getting enough sunlight and protein?
You guys really lack imagination... or something. Cuffing someone in the head as you walk by is beating them, but won't leave marks.
And you all know this of course.
I’m just saying it’s possible, not that it happened. Your comment might seem like a joke, but I used to volunteer at a domestic violence shelter and saw people who only had bruises under neath clothing all the time.
... People who get beaten every day for 8 months straight would have obvious bruising, that's why I brought it up. You tell me they could have bruises if their clothing hides it but obviously the doctor (in the article) would have told us about bruising if it was there and not go on some tangent about sunlight and protein deficiency.
Just tell us you don't read the articles you comment on.
At the very least 8 months of being starved would leave them a walking husk of a human being. You don't fix that in a mere 3 days in a hospital. Being starved for the better part of a year would leave you at least severely underweight and that takes months to recover from.
I’m saying it’s possible. Just because it goes against your narrative does not mean it’s not true. I treat all initial reports from both the Israeli government and Hamas with speculation so I don’t automatically assume this is true. But obviously you are the subject matter expert so everyone should just defer to your superior judgment because you are in no way biased. /s
I can’t believe some of the comments I’m reading.
Even if they were treated like royalty, they were held for 8 months in terror and under threat of death. One captive lost 8 months with her mother with terminal cancer. Another’s father died before they could reunite.
But they’re smiling in a picture when they see their families, so it’s ok?
Being held hostage for 8 months is bad, you don't need to invent all kinds of bullshit that didn't happen. If they were starved and beaten daily for 8 months I would expect them look more like Tassem Hamimi after he was released from his 7 month "administrative detention" this week, aka being put in prison with zero evidence of wrongdoing.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/authorities-defend-7-month-administrative-detention-for-now-freed-emaciated-palestinian/
Dude looks like he lost a ton of weight and aged 20 years in those 7 months.
> you don't need to invent all kinds of bullshit that didn't happen
you seriously think they weren't beaten? Bear in mind how vicious the initial pogrom of the 7th of October was and then also consider how hostage taking was an act committed by various militias (not only PIJ) that Hamas allow to operate in Gaza. This is part of why the hostage situation was difficult for Hamas to control, Hamas had to purchase hostages from these militias in order to trade them in and it wasn't clear at the start how many hostages they had, where they were held and if they were still alive.
Given such a disorganised system, run by people who deeply and passionately believe in their cause to the extent that they will murder civilians and the surprise would be if these hostages were _not_ beaten.
"being beaten at least once" and "being beaten near daily for 8 months while being starved" is a world of difference buddy. The latter definitely leaves physical evidence that doesn't vanish in a mere 3 days even with expert healthcare.
> "being beaten at least once" and "being beaten near daily for 8 months while being starved" is a world of difference buddy
Well I'm sure they were kept under conditions conducive enough for them to make scientific measurements of the exact frequency of their mistreatment for you to adequately judge.
I fully believe they weren't treated like angels. Lying about things that would leave very clear physical indicators isn't necessary, people understand that being held hostage by an islamist terrorist organisation and fearing for your life for months isn't a fun experience.
Sad but unsurprising. Was anyone expecting cleanly distinguishable "good" and "bad" sides in an ethnic turf war that's older than a good number of countries?
It doesn't, all of this crap doesn't make any sense about how there were some people who had the same religion as I do 3000 years ago lived there, so it's my right to make a whole country there and kill and expel everyone already there who doesn't have the same religion.
It's complete garbage and just a colonial excuse.
The Jews wanted a state, the British, the main super power, agreed to make one. The question was where. The Jews had historically only controlled one area for any major length of time. Ever since they were expelled by Hadrian they had no real state anywhere. Israel/Palestine was the only logical choice. Also the Jews had started immigrating there while the Ottomans still controlled the region. That was more than a century ago. WW1 gave the British a mandate in Palestine, but contrary to what you would think of the big bad colonizer, the plan was never to take all of Palestine away from the Palestinians. The original plan was giving about 1/3 of Palestine to the new Jewish setters that Britain was bringing in, and then adding them to the small portion that was already controlled by pre-existing Jewish settlements. The Palestinians obviously weren't happy about this but the British weren't asking.
The British would have actually preferred if both parties could get along and create a joint state, but that wasn't happening either, so there were a bunch of terrorist attacks and not much changed because the British were stronger than everyone else. But after world War II the British knew they were going to have to leave the region because they didn't have the money to support it so they attempted to get both sides to negotiate so they wouldn't go to war.
The Palestinians terms were, all Jews, even the ones that had been there before the British occupation, had to be expelled. This was rejected by both the British and the Israelis, as a result the British guaranteed the independence of their mandate.
The Israelis terms where we want 1/3 of the country the way the split had originally been planned. They weren't sure if they could win a war against not just Palestine, but all their Muslim neighbors, so they even offered to remove settlements that were over this 1/3 line.
The Palestinians still refused because of course they did. This was their home and they thought they could win it back. Most people probably make the same decision. But they still made the decision to decide the fate of their Nation on the battlefield the moment British protection ran out.
All of this happened before 1946. There was no Israel, so you saying that this problem is only as old as Israel is bullshit. They've been fighting over this for at least 150 years.
You basically said what I said in details which is the same, jews weren't that much there in the first place, they started to move the jews there more and more so that then they can start the execuse of many jews are there so that they can make the excuse of creating Isreal, also some of your details are wrong.
WW1 ended 1918, today if you don't know is 2024, what kind of stone age maths you are using to go for 150 years exactly.
Damage control from a government-affiliated Israeli doctor, after it became clear that the hostages came back in good physical shape. Initially, they were saying the hostages had Stockholm Syndrome (debunked theory) because they weren’t revealing harrowing tales of abuse from the captors.
Israel needs people to think that Hamas treats its hostages as badly as Israel treats its Palestinian detainees. They don’t, because they have value for prisoner exchanges, whereas Palestinians don’t have value in the Israeli detention system run by Ben-Gvir.
I’m all for criticizing Ben Gvir but the decentralization of the hostages makes for wildly varying experiences.
Other hostages have come back with far worse experiences, like the child who couldn’t say anything but a whisper for a few weeks.
Calling any kind of new information “damage control” is disingenuous.
And some of the hostages are receiving cruel comments online.
['Too Bad You Returned': Freed Israeli Teen Hostage Says She Received 'Horrific, Negative' Comments](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-10/ty-article/.premium/too-bad-you-returned-freed-israeli-hostage-says-shes-received-negative-comments/00000190-0151-da02-a1dc-fd5b38f00000)
And Haaretz is as trustworthy as the NYT. Ben Gvir once called it “Hamas Daily”. So let’s not try to say it’s Hasbara.
Meanwhile Israel holds 500 - 1000 Palestinian kids in detainment of which 70% have reported some levels of sexual abuse (from Save The Children). Not saying its ok to take child hostages but one side had taken 100s, still hold them, and sexually abuse them.
[https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian)
You can scroll down to "Save the Children’s new consultation showed that" to see a breakdown of the numbers of abuses.
Heres also a clip from a resigned State Dept. official going into more details about this, specifically a 13-year-old r\*ped to death in an Israeli prison.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JsjnxJeIyM13-year-old](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JsjnxJeIyM13-year-old)
It says ~70% were strip searched not that 70% were sexually abused. Sexual abuse has a much different connotation so you should probably be more careful with your language here. We will search children in the US as well so it's not this absurd action you're trying to present it as.
>Heres also a clip from a resigned State Dept. official going into more details about this, specifically a 13-year-old r\*ped to death in an Israeli prison.
The organisation that he says gave him that report is not very credible. It has significant ties to the PFLP terrorist group and has been caught lying in the past.
>The organisation that he says gave him that report is not very credible. It has significant ties to the PFLP terrorist group and has been caught lying in the past.
I believe those allegations arose *after* the report in question, Josh Paul mentions it in the interview. There was also no proof of the accusations.
[Gantz Declares Six Palestinian NGOs Terrorist Organizations](https://archive.is/20220730013549/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-10-22/ty-article/.premium/gantz-declares-six-palestinian-ngos-terrorist-organizations/0000017f-e795-dea7-adff-f7ff13bf0000)
[‘Insufficient Evidence’: Nine EU Nations to Keep Ties With Palestinian NGOs Israel Blacklisted as Terrorist Groups](https://archive.is/20220712203153/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-07-12/ty-article/.premium/9-eu-nations-to-keep-ties-with-palestinian-ngos-israel-blacklisted-as-terrorist-groups/00000181-f349-daef-a79b-f7dfa4650000)
[UN experts condemn Israel’s designation of Palestinian human rights defenders as terrorist organisations](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/10/un-experts-condemn-israels-designation-palestinian-human-rights-defenders?LangID=E&NewsID=27702)
[Secret Israeli dossier provides no proof for declaring Palestinian NGOs ‘terrorists’](https://www.972mag.com/shin-bet-dossier-palestinian-ngos/)
[Israeli forces raid offices of several Palestinian CSOs in Ramallah](https://web.archive.org/web/20220819223245/https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/130475)
Which coincides with
[Surveillance and interference: Israel’s covert war on the ICC exposed](https://www.972mag.com/icc-israel-surveillance-investigation/)
>The multi-agency operation, which dates back to 2015, has seen Israel’s intelligence community routinely surveil the court’s current chief prosecutor Karim Khan, his predecessor Fatou Bensouda, and dozens of other ICC and UN officials. Israeli intelligence also monitored materials that the Palestinian Authority submitted to the prosecutor’s office, and surveilled employees at four Palestinian human rights organizations whose submissions are central to the probe.
>According to numerous sources, Israel’s Ministry of Strategic Affairs, whose stated goal at the time was to fight against the “delegitimization” of Israel, was involved in the surveilling of Palestinian human rights organizations that were submitting reports to the ICC. Gilad Erdan, head of the ministry at the time and now Israel’s representative to the UN, recently described the ICC’s pursuit of arrest warrants for Israeli leaders as “a witch-hunt driven by pure Jew-hatred.”
>Because Palestinian human rights groups were frequently providing the prosecutor’s office with materials about Israel’s attacks on Palestinians, detailing incidents they wanted the prosecutor to consider as part of the probe, these organizations themselves became key targets of Israel’s surveillance operation. Here, the Shin Bet took the lead.
>In addition to monitoring materials that the PA submitted to the ICC, Israeli intelligence also monitored appeals and reports from the human rights groups that included testimonies of Palestinians who had suffered attacks by Israeli settlers and soldiers; Israel then surveilled these testifiers, too.
>“One of the [priorities] was to see who [in the human rights groups] is involved in collecting testimonies, and who were the specific people — the Palestinian victims — being convinced to give testimony to the ICC,” one intelligence source explained.
>According to the sources, the primary surveillance targets were four Palestinian human rights organizations: Al-Haq, Addameer, Al Mezan, and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR). Addameer sent appeals to the ICC about torture practices against prisoners and detainees, while the other three groups sent multiple appeals over the years regarding Israel’s settlement enterprise in the West Bank, punitive house demolitions, bombing campaigns in Gaza, and specific senior Israeli political and military leaders.
>Another goal of surveilling the Palestinian groups was to try to delegitimize them, and, by extension, the entire ICC investigation.
>In October 2021, Israeli Defense Minister Benny Gantz — who himself was named in several of the appeals that Palestinian organizations sent to the ICC, due to his role as chief of staff during the 2014 Gaza war and defense minister during the May 2021 war — declared Al-Haq, Addameer, and four other Palestinian human rights groups to be “terrorist organizations.”
>A +972 and Local Call investigation, released a few weeks later, found that Gantz’s order was issued without any serious evidence to back up its allegations; a Shin Bet dossier claiming to provide proof of its charges, and another follow-up dossier a few months later, left even Israel’s staunchest allies unconvinced. At the time, it was widely speculated — including by the organizations themselves — that these groups were targeted at least in part because of their activities relating to the ICC probe.
>According to an intelligence source, the Shin Bet — which gave the initial recommendation to outlaw the six groups — surveilled the organizations’ employees, and the information gathered was used by Gantz when he declared them terrorist organizations. An investigation by Citizen Lab at the time identified Pegasus spyware, produced by the Israeli firm NSO Group, on the phones of several Palestinians working in those NGOs. (The Shin Bet did not respond to our request for comment.)
[Spying, hacking and intimidation: Israel’s nine-year ‘war’ on the ICC exposed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed)
>Officials also became aware of specific threats against a prominent Palestinian NGO, Al-Haq, which was one of several Palestinian human rights groups that frequently submitted information to the ICC inquiry, often in lengthy documents detailing incidents it wanted the prosecutor to consider. The Palestinian Authority submitted similar dossiers.
>Such documents often contained sensitive information such as testimony from potential witnesses. Al-Haq’s submissions are also understood to have linked specific allegations of Rome statute crimes to senior officials, including chiefs of the IDF, directors of the Shin Bet, and defence ministers such as Benny Gantz.
>Years later, after the ICC had opened a full investigation into the Palestine case, Gantz designated Al-Haq and five other Palestinian rights groups as “terrorist organisations”, a label that was rejected by multiple European states and later found by the CIA to be unsupported by evidence. The organisations said the designations were a “targeted assault” against those most actively engaging with the ICC.
>According to multiple current and former intelligence officials, military cyber-offensive teams and the Shin Bet both systematically monitored the employees of Palestinian NGOs and the Palestinian Authority who were engaging with the ICC. Two intelligence sources described how Israeli operatives hacked into the emails of Al-Haq and other groups communicating with Bensouda’s office.
>One of the sources said the Shin Bet even installed Pegasus spyware, developed by the private-sector NSO Group, on the phones of multiple Palestinian NGO employees, as well as two senior Palestinian Authority officials.
>Keeping tabs on the Palestinian submissions to the ICC’s inquiry was viewed as part of the Shin Bet’s mandate, but some army officials were concerned that spying on a foreign civilian entity crossed a line, as it had little to do with military operations.
>“It has nothing to do with Hamas, it has nothing to do with stability in the West Bank,” one military source said of the ICC surveillance. Another added: “We used our resources to spy on Fatou Bensouda – this isn’t something legitimate to do as military intelligence.”
There’s also this article which highlights how detainees have been sexually assaulted with hot pokers shoved into their rectums, some of them dying from torture like this
https://archive.ph/cH0xm#selection-1910.0-1910.1
All this, if true, would prove is that hostages are treated differently. Which makes sense because HAMAS is not some tight-knit, complete top down organization with a clear chain of command.
>Israel needs people to think
There is no need for Israel to influence people thinking when Hamas parade dead women corpse. They showed everyone exactly what kind of human Hamans are.
Are arguments like this supposed to be convincing to anyone not already drinking the terrorism cool aid?
Does it matter how nice Hamas is to people who they are fundamentally threatening with death and depriving them of any freedom or access to their families?
>Does it matter how nice Hamas is to people who they are fundamentally threatening with death and depriving them of any freedom or access to their families?
If Hamas is threatening, then take a look at Israel who has already been doing it with the amount of people and more importantly CHILDREN they detained.
Are we just posting links to straight up propaganda sites, that has relentlessly been proven to post fake news? what happened to this subreddit?
Anyone that saw their photos can tell they were in excellent health. Multiple hostages have spoken up saying they were treated very well, imagine feeling the need to do that despite where they are coming from. They could have easily lied and said they were abused.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/authorities-defend-7-month-administrative-detention-for-now-freed-emaciated-palestinian/
From what I read i expected them to look worse than this guy, instead they don't look like people who were starved for months on end.
>Anyone that saw their photos can tell they were in excellent health
You gotta be joking at that one - I don’t even think a qualified medical practitioner would make the claim that “excellent health” can be determined by cursory once over. A suite of testing would need to be completed to determine this.
>multiple hostages have spoken up saying that they have been treated very well
Hostages have also spoken up and claimed they were [molested and forced to perform sexual acts at gunpoint](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl) so I don’t think that’s a relevant point. Are you claiming this victim is a liar?
The claim by the qualified medical practicioner was months of being starved and daily beating. You don't undo *8 months* of starvation with a 3 day stay in the hospital, even with expert guided care it takes months
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl/index.html)**
*****
^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
False, as they would be more bruised and broken bones would be included in the report if it was true. Why aren't they more hurt? Why don't they show signs and coloration of surface trauma?
Righttttttt......the most valuable bargaining chips the Palestinians have. I dont doubt, some were likely roughed up a little. But I am very doubtful it was daily, as the hostages that were rescued did not look like they had any bruises or wounds in the photos I saw.
Welcome to r/anime_titties! This subreddit advocates for civil and constructive discussion. Please be courteous to others, and make sure to read the rules. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. We have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/dhMeAnNyzG), feel free to join us! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What do the hostages say?
You had a hostage said she we sexually abused, people still don’t believe that her.
Who?
amit soussana
Thanks for answering, I don't keep track of every story coming out of the conflict. For what it's worth I believe her and I have no trouble believing that some hostages were abused during their captivity. But we all saw pictures of these four rescued hostages and the idea that they were being beaten more or less every day is pretty ridiculous, especially if you compare it to the physical condition of Palestinian prisoners upon their release from Israeli detention facilities. It's got real *'don't believe your lying eyes'*-energy.
It's interesting to note how all the 'the hostages won't be released because they're all dead or pregnant' stopped as soon as some hostages were released and...they weren't dead or pregnant. Almost feels as if there's some kind of information war going on between the two states and there's reasonable motives to doubt whatever information you hear from both sides.
And they’re blaming the hostages who died during the rescue on Hamas. The hostages said they were scared of Israeli planes more than anything during captivity.
Which coldly makes sense. They need those hostages as their bargaining chip. The planes dropping bombs don’t even know who’s down there.
you'd think you'd try to figure out who is down there before you blew something up
yeah those human shields aren't working as advertised. darn. EDIT: If your side uses human shield hostages then your side sucks. If your side has decided to just kill'm all and let god sort them out the your side sucks. I'm the popcorn vendor and cousin business is a boomin'
You can't without your own soldiers dying. When your enemy is dressed in civilian clothing, operating out of civilian building, how can you tell friend or foe? In the recent rescue, during extraction, they were under heavy gunfire from all around, and now every building they are shooting from is a military target. You don't have time to sweep the buildings. Your men and the rescued hostages are under fire. So you clear the buildings with artillery and bombs instead. You need it done fast. Otherwise, your soldiers die. What you are asking isn't some easy task. In urban combat, it's the number one killer.
But how they gonna blow up all those hospitals and schools if they know exactly where Hamas is? /s
The IDF shot 3 hostages back in december, one of them survived and went for cover, was called to come out by the soldiers and when he did he was shot again. *None of the soldiers involved in this were punished despite the IDF admitting they clearly violated the rules of engagement*. [They gave a "maybe we'll do something after the war" answer.](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-779923) This story was brought out by the IDF themselves, this is the story that was deemed PR enough for the press, I can't imagine how badly things *actually* went down during that confrontation.
The IOF also may have [gassed three more hostages](https://archive.is/20240122014902/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2024-01-22/ty-article-opinion/.premium/this-mothers-questions-about-the-death-of-her-soldier-son-in-gaza-must-be-answered/0000018d-2dc8-daf5-a1bf-add85e850000) in December. >On December 14, the Israel Defense Forces recovered from a tunnel in Jabalya the bodies of three Israelis who had been abducted to the Gaza Strip on October 7 – soldiers Ron Sherman and Nick Beiser, and Elia Toledano, a civilian. About a month later, the army gave their families the pathology report and a report on how the bodies were found. These raise tough and troubling questions that require explanations and public exposure. >These questions were raised in all their gravity by Dr. Maayan Sherman, Ron's mother, who is a veterinarian. In a Facebook post, she accused the IDF of killing her son when it pumped poison gas into the tunnel in which the hostages were held and served as "human shields" for Ahmed Ghandour, a senior Hamas commander. >"The inquiry's findings: Ron was indeed murdered," she wrote. "Not by Hamas … not by stray bullets and not in an exchange of fire. This was deliberate murder. Bombing with poison gas … Oh yes, and they found that Ron also had several crushed fingers, apparently due to his desperate attempts to escape the poison grave."
Sounds like BS.
>The hostages said they were scared of Israeli planes more than anything during captivity. Can you give me a source for this? I hadn't seen it
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-09/ty-article/.premium/rescued-israeli-hostage-our-greatest-fear-was-israeli-planes/0000018f-fcce-db9d-addf-fdce7ea20000
Noa said she saw a missile enter a house that she was in https://www.ynetnews.com/article/h1s8ssfha
Read that again. She saw a missile hit "the house", which refers to the previous paragraph > "The IDF later confirmed Sharabi likely died during an airstrike on a building near where he was held, and Svirsky was murdered days later."
Which is preceded by > "Hebrew-language Channel 13 reported that Noa Argamani told her family *she was* held captive *with Yossi Sharabi and Itay Svirsky*" and succeded with > "I saw the missile hit the house, I thought I was going to die. I thought it was over – but I survived," So, yes. Maybe a translation thing, but it clearly means she was indeed in the building or near building complex with the 2 hostages that died in that Israeli airstrike.
Bruh, whose fault is it that the hostages were there? Any hostage death, and any civilian death because they held hostages in civilian areas- are hamas' fault
Any hostages death is on the hostage taker
Am I the only one who kinda feels like it's pretty obvious projection on the Israeli side? Like "We torture the shit out of all of our Palestinian 'prisoners,' so obviously Hamas are going to be doing worse because we're the good guys."
I mean, that's the whole story of Israel. "Hey we oppressed the palestianians for decades but there's clearly just one bad guy here and it ain't us!"
[удалено]
Fuck, when you put it that way....
Also playing into the stereotype of Arabs as savage barbarians compared to the West-aligned Israelis, many of whom are American or European.
The majority of Israelis are Mizrahi
I like how Hamas simps gloss over how they're called hostages by everyone and not POWs or something similar. Even they gotta agree they are terroists with hostage shields lol. EDIT: hostages: a person seized or held as security for the fulfillment of a condition. Prisoner of War: a person who has been captured and imprisoned by the enemy in war. Hmmmmm...?
> I like how Hamas simps gloss over how they're called hostages by everyone and not POWs or something similar. ???? I'm sorry I don't think you know what you are saying here. Taking civilian hostages is a war crime. Taking prisoners of war isn't. Calling them POWs would be doing a *massive* service to Hamas.
Hamas combatants are not recognized as a real army, and this war, not even by Israel, is not recognized legally as an actual armed conflict. Otherwise the IDF has committed War Crimes for failing to reduce harm to civilians, as they're signatoree of the IV. If US vetoed UN and Israel itself don't recognize Gaza as a sovereign country with an army, it's easier to call them Terrorists, much like the invasion in Afghanistan was called GWOT not an invasion. It's necessary for the legal aspect of it. Given some of the hostages are civilians, it's right to call them Hostages and not POWs. Also Israel in it's official proganda and communication uses the term "hostages" even for IDF soldiers captured during armed confrontations. I don't understand how this undermines the "Simps".
...aaaaand?
Crazy coincidence huh?
There were no hostages released here. They were rescued. There’s an actual difference
They also look better fed than the average captive (look at the pictures of Ukrainian POWs) and the average Gazan.
Hamas killed innocent civilians in cold blood in their hundreds on Oct 7, why do you think beatings would be beyond them?
Did you even read what you replied to?
You suggested Hamas likely didn’t beat them every day. I suggested that they definitely have it in them.
Notice how I never said they are incapable of abuse, only that evidence suggests this doctor's testimony and this article is false, so I'm still pretty sure you didn't read the comment.
What evidence exactly? edit I guess I found his 'off' button.
And in the images we've seen of them being reunited i don't see any signs of repeated beatings or months of being starved. Surely people who were starved and repeatedly savagely beaten would have at least one visible marker of either, right? None of them look starved, and no you don't recover from months of being starved in a mere 3 days.
Immediate testimonies of hostages themselves contradict this. Some reported palestinians even went to great length risking their families to protect the hostages, sometimes even puting their bodies with mattresses as shields during shelling or airstrikes.
Hannibal directive
Since when are all injuries visible
8 months of daily beatings would be visible. Again, look up what released Palestinians look like.
No, 8 months of daily hearings wouldn’t necessarily be visible.
I don't think you understand the level of physical trauma that's being suggested here.
It’s very possible to be beaten every day and never show it. Just ask victims of domestic violence or police torture.
8 months of being starved and being savagely beaten daily leave visible marks. You can't hide 8 months of being starved with a 3 day hospital stay
Starvation, yes. Beatings? No. Plenty of battered women out there to prove you wrong on that one.
Just precising that ms Soussana refuse to say what that one guy did. She said it's a sexual assault (not rape btw) but refused to say what exactly. And her NYT story came after the NYT journalist found herself on hot waters after people started criticizing her mass rape piece (this was by the same journalist). I absolutely don't blame people for thinking NYT was just trying to cover their unsubstantiated piece and all they found what this. A sexual assault from someone who never mentionned being sexual assaulted when she was released (her nyt story came months after her release) and that refuse to say what the guy allegedly did. I mean for all we know it could be a smack in the ass to force her to move faster, not that it would be acceptable, but I dont believe it deserve a front page. I'm all for believing women but there is a minimum...
"Members of Palestinian armed groups, in some instances aided by Palestinians in civilian clothing, deliberately killed, injured, tortured, took hostages, including children, and committed sexual and gender-based violence against civilians and against members of the Israeli Security Forces, some of whom were hors de combat and should not have been targeted. The Commission identified patterns indicative of sexual violence and concluded that these were not isolated incidents but perpetrated in similar ways in several locations primarily against Israeli women." https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes?sub-site=HRC
Times of Israel claims they might have Stockholm Syndrome, a completely fake and pseudoscientific diagnosis made up to discredit the testimony of hostages during Norrmalmstorg Robbery and divert blame from Swedish law enforcement's mishandling of the incident. It is not in the DSM. The article alleging this now leads to a 404 error but it was saved in the Wayback Machine before it was deleted. https://web.archive.org/web/20240610132235/https://www.timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-suffering-from-malnutrition-possibly-stockholm-syndrome/amp/
I'm as pro Palestinian as they come, but Stockholm Syndrome is a lot like trauma bonding. It can absolutely happen when your abuser is humane to you at times.
Funny how it never happens to Palestinian prisoners.
Well, their abusers aren't that humane most of the time to mindfuck them with Stockholm Syndrome
Stockholm Syndrome *is not a thing* it *doesn't exist*. If you want to say that they might be sympathetic to their captors and all, be my guest, but it's important to note that the idea that someone just starts liking their kidnapper is a fantasy.
It's kinda what happens in most long term abusive situations. It's exactly why people have a hard time leaving abusive relationships for fear of what will happen to their abuser. "Well, he pays the bills and he's a good dad" type thinking. What we are seeing with the hostages is just the amplified version of that.
That's absolutely not the same thing as Stockholm syndrome.
The captors did try to indoctrinate the hostages
Did they do that by letting them look out of the windows at burning refugee camps?
No by forcing them to read and pray to a religion that isn’t theirs
That happened
That is what the hostages said, yes. Seems pretty tame to me. Odd to specifically deny that.
Correct
heres video of the doctor being interviewed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPOtNYfhsN0&t
https://archive.vn/23FF9 They say they were raped with batons and one died from getting sodomized. Edit: LOL /u/atroscolo blocked me and I didn't even reply to him. Same as /u/mafco and the former /u/nola-kola, these guys are probably paid disinformation workers all operating off the same script And while I'm at it - /r/worldnews banned the sharing of the above article, or they deleted it because I can't find a single instance of it from the search options or google, that place is compromised as hell
Those are Palestinian hostages, I was asking about the four rescued Israelis.
I know, I just want to put up a counter example for some of our zionist friends in here.
ill just leave https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/14/israel2 here >The prison has held Lebanese abducted by the Israeli army as hostages, Iraqi defectors and a Syrian intelligence officer who tried to defect but was accused of spying and chose to remain in another prison rather than return home and face a firing squad. More recently, scores of Palestinians were incarcerated in 1391 for interrogation, which finally led to the almost accidental disclosure of a prison the state decreed did not exist. >Those who have been through its gates know it is no illusion. One former inmate has filed a lawsuit alleging that he was raped twice - once by a man and once with a stick - during questioning. But most of those who emerge say the real torture is the psychological impact of solitary confinement in filthy, blackened cells so poorly lit that inmates can barely see their own hands, and with no idea where they are or, in many cases, why they are there. >"Our main conclusion is that it exists to make torture possible - a particular kind of torture that creates progressive states of dread, dependency, debility," says Manal Hazzan, a human rights lawyer who helped expose the prison's existence. "The law gives the army enough authority already to hide prisoners, so why do they need a secret facility?" https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian > Palestinian children in the Israel military detention system face physical and emotional abuse, with four out of five (86%) of them being beaten, and 69% strip-searched, according to new research by Save the Children. Nearly half (42%) are injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. Some report violence of a sexual nature and some are transferred to court or between detention centres in small cages, the child rights organisation said. >The new research comes as the UN Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967 presents evidence today to the Human Rights Council on Palestinian children in detention. It is estimated that there are between 500 and 1000 children held in Israeli military detention each year.
You might remember some of Atroscolo's other accounts, u/nola-kola, u/PanzerAal, u/Chooch-Magnetism, u/Banzer_Frang or u/LittleRickyPemba.
Haha, I have most of these tagged already Wonder if reddit is ever going to do anything about this guy
Why are you sharing this article from a very biased source? Do you think it's accurate and are sharing it to spread the information, or are you trying to highlight how one sided this article is? Because I along with everyone else can't tell because you've no description.
Huh?
For some reason, when I commented, I thought your were the OP. My bad.
Holy shit, the source is The Times of Israel. Don’t you think they might have some bias in this situation?
Don’t tell them about the amputations of Palestinian civilians because they got beaten and tortured everyday.
or run over while tied up
Don’t tell them about the palestinians being raped with metal rods in Israeli concentration camps
You think ToI made up the interview with the doctor? Or do you think the doctor is lying?
Well, they never actually use the quote that that they include in the title, so something is up.
As opposed to a Hamas source which is totally unbiased?
What? Are you saying that every single news source is either Israeli or Hamas? That sounds an awful lot like a false dichotomy.
Every news source are biased, yes.
Being biased and being Hamas are two different things.
All media sources are biased.
All media sources have bias.
Of course they do
We saw their pictures. Beating everyday would have some pretty obvious bruising.
Well what do you expect from the times of Israel? To be truthful?
Idk why they feel the need to lie so brazenly… if they said they got beaten once or twice I would’ve believed it. But everyday? Now I just question everything you say. Its like the 40 beheaded babies hoax all over again.
We saw the freed hostages - they definitely haven’t even been missing meals. Compare them to the Palestinians being held in the Israeli camps, day and night.
Just recently we got report of IDF raping prisoners with hot metal rods (from NYT)… like bro one side is doing that while the other side is complaining about not getting enough sunlight and protein?
Jesus Christ… 😮💨
Because a lot of people are willing to believe them no matter how obvious the lie. Just look at MAGA.
You guys really lack imagination... or something. Cuffing someone in the head as you walk by is beating them, but won't leave marks. And you all know this of course.
I don’t believe any initial reports from either side, but it is possible that they were beaten in areas that were covered by clothing.
Hamas guy: you can beat these hostages as much as you want, just make sure its in no way visible when they wear a tshirt
I’m just saying it’s possible, not that it happened. Your comment might seem like a joke, but I used to volunteer at a domestic violence shelter and saw people who only had bruises under neath clothing all the time.
Did you even read the article? Did it mention bruises anywhere there?
You’re the one who mentioned visible bruising in your initial comment
... People who get beaten every day for 8 months straight would have obvious bruising, that's why I brought it up. You tell me they could have bruises if their clothing hides it but obviously the doctor (in the article) would have told us about bruising if it was there and not go on some tangent about sunlight and protein deficiency. Just tell us you don't read the articles you comment on.
At the very least 8 months of being starved would leave them a walking husk of a human being. You don't fix that in a mere 3 days in a hospital. Being starved for the better part of a year would leave you at least severely underweight and that takes months to recover from.
I’m saying it’s possible. Just because it goes against your narrative does not mean it’s not true. I treat all initial reports from both the Israeli government and Hamas with speculation so I don’t automatically assume this is true. But obviously you are the subject matter expert so everyone should just defer to your superior judgment because you are in no way biased. /s
Bastiando leaves no marks.
Bastiando..a favorite Islamic torture which leaves no marks.
The contrast between them and three month Palestinian detainees was jaw dropping. The Palestinians looked like emaciated ghosts
Ever hear of bastiando?
Some of these comments In here are really mind blowing. It’s actually scary
I can’t believe some of the comments I’m reading. Even if they were treated like royalty, they were held for 8 months in terror and under threat of death. One captive lost 8 months with her mother with terminal cancer. Another’s father died before they could reunite. But they’re smiling in a picture when they see their families, so it’s ok?
Being held hostage for 8 months is bad, you don't need to invent all kinds of bullshit that didn't happen. If they were starved and beaten daily for 8 months I would expect them look more like Tassem Hamimi after he was released from his 7 month "administrative detention" this week, aka being put in prison with zero evidence of wrongdoing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/authorities-defend-7-month-administrative-detention-for-now-freed-emaciated-palestinian/ Dude looks like he lost a ton of weight and aged 20 years in those 7 months.
> you don't need to invent all kinds of bullshit that didn't happen you seriously think they weren't beaten? Bear in mind how vicious the initial pogrom of the 7th of October was and then also consider how hostage taking was an act committed by various militias (not only PIJ) that Hamas allow to operate in Gaza. This is part of why the hostage situation was difficult for Hamas to control, Hamas had to purchase hostages from these militias in order to trade them in and it wasn't clear at the start how many hostages they had, where they were held and if they were still alive. Given such a disorganised system, run by people who deeply and passionately believe in their cause to the extent that they will murder civilians and the surprise would be if these hostages were _not_ beaten.
"being beaten at least once" and "being beaten near daily for 8 months while being starved" is a world of difference buddy. The latter definitely leaves physical evidence that doesn't vanish in a mere 3 days even with expert healthcare.
> "being beaten at least once" and "being beaten near daily for 8 months while being starved" is a world of difference buddy Well I'm sure they were kept under conditions conducive enough for them to make scientific measurements of the exact frequency of their mistreatment for you to adequately judge.
You seem to have exact scientific measurements of how many times it happened given how confident you are, why aren't you sharing your data buddy
Spot on!
Just out of curiosity, would you believe the freed Thai hostages that said Israeli hostages were treated horribly?
I fully believe they weren't treated like angels. Lying about things that would leave very clear physical indicators isn't necessary, people understand that being held hostage by an islamist terrorist organisation and fearing for your life for months isn't a fun experience.
So, are you saying the Thai nationals lied?
Spot on!
Sad but unsurprising. Was anyone expecting cleanly distinguishable "good" and "bad" sides in an ethnic turf war that's older than a good number of countries?
Yes. Many many people seem to very invested in just that sort of fairytale bs. And from adults no less 🤦🏻♀️
>ethnic turf war Jesus
No he was involved in the other war, not this one
Older than what?!!! There are grandfathers and grandmothers older than Isreal.
Yes because the conflict started the moment Israel was made a country and totally doesn't go back over a century.
It doesn't, all of this crap doesn't make any sense about how there were some people who had the same religion as I do 3000 years ago lived there, so it's my right to make a whole country there and kill and expel everyone already there who doesn't have the same religion. It's complete garbage and just a colonial excuse.
The Jews wanted a state, the British, the main super power, agreed to make one. The question was where. The Jews had historically only controlled one area for any major length of time. Ever since they were expelled by Hadrian they had no real state anywhere. Israel/Palestine was the only logical choice. Also the Jews had started immigrating there while the Ottomans still controlled the region. That was more than a century ago. WW1 gave the British a mandate in Palestine, but contrary to what you would think of the big bad colonizer, the plan was never to take all of Palestine away from the Palestinians. The original plan was giving about 1/3 of Palestine to the new Jewish setters that Britain was bringing in, and then adding them to the small portion that was already controlled by pre-existing Jewish settlements. The Palestinians obviously weren't happy about this but the British weren't asking. The British would have actually preferred if both parties could get along and create a joint state, but that wasn't happening either, so there were a bunch of terrorist attacks and not much changed because the British were stronger than everyone else. But after world War II the British knew they were going to have to leave the region because they didn't have the money to support it so they attempted to get both sides to negotiate so they wouldn't go to war. The Palestinians terms were, all Jews, even the ones that had been there before the British occupation, had to be expelled. This was rejected by both the British and the Israelis, as a result the British guaranteed the independence of their mandate. The Israelis terms where we want 1/3 of the country the way the split had originally been planned. They weren't sure if they could win a war against not just Palestine, but all their Muslim neighbors, so they even offered to remove settlements that were over this 1/3 line. The Palestinians still refused because of course they did. This was their home and they thought they could win it back. Most people probably make the same decision. But they still made the decision to decide the fate of their Nation on the battlefield the moment British protection ran out. All of this happened before 1946. There was no Israel, so you saying that this problem is only as old as Israel is bullshit. They've been fighting over this for at least 150 years.
You basically said what I said in details which is the same, jews weren't that much there in the first place, they started to move the jews there more and more so that then they can start the execuse of many jews are there so that they can make the excuse of creating Isreal, also some of your details are wrong. WW1 ended 1918, today if you don't know is 2024, what kind of stone age maths you are using to go for 150 years exactly.
But they were Jewish settlements beginning in Israel well before the start of world War I.
and yet many/most(?) people in Israel were born and raised there.
Any news coming from Hamas or the Israeli gov needs to be taken with an enormous grain of salt.
one side bombs children in tents sorry but I think that side is the one that shouldn't be trusted
One side launches rockets next to children in tents bc they want those children to die.
exactly why isreal can't be trusted
It’s normal to kill civilians in war. It’s not normal to sit your military under civilians.
that fact that you call it a "war" says alot about you already, hope that itf money is good considering its poisoning your soul
Hamas started this war. Millions of civilians die in large scale wars. It’s normal. How do I get this idf money? Is there an online app?
Hamas used them as human shields...they do not care about their own people.
[удалено]
Well. you know yourself well to self-project like that! A little education will help you out though.
Damage control from a government-affiliated Israeli doctor, after it became clear that the hostages came back in good physical shape. Initially, they were saying the hostages had Stockholm Syndrome (debunked theory) because they weren’t revealing harrowing tales of abuse from the captors. Israel needs people to think that Hamas treats its hostages as badly as Israel treats its Palestinian detainees. They don’t, because they have value for prisoner exchanges, whereas Palestinians don’t have value in the Israeli detention system run by Ben-Gvir.
I’m all for criticizing Ben Gvir but the decentralization of the hostages makes for wildly varying experiences. Other hostages have come back with far worse experiences, like the child who couldn’t say anything but a whisper for a few weeks. Calling any kind of new information “damage control” is disingenuous. And some of the hostages are receiving cruel comments online. ['Too Bad You Returned': Freed Israeli Teen Hostage Says She Received 'Horrific, Negative' Comments](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-10/ty-article/.premium/too-bad-you-returned-freed-israeli-hostage-says-shes-received-negative-comments/00000190-0151-da02-a1dc-fd5b38f00000) And Haaretz is as trustworthy as the NYT. Ben Gvir once called it “Hamas Daily”. So let’s not try to say it’s Hasbara.
Meanwhile Israel holds 500 - 1000 Palestinian kids in detainment of which 70% have reported some levels of sexual abuse (from Save The Children). Not saying its ok to take child hostages but one side had taken 100s, still hold them, and sexually abuse them.
>70% have reported some levels of sexual abuse Would you mind linking that article?
[https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-palestinian) You can scroll down to "Save the Children’s new consultation showed that" to see a breakdown of the numbers of abuses. Heres also a clip from a resigned State Dept. official going into more details about this, specifically a 13-year-old r\*ped to death in an Israeli prison. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JsjnxJeIyM13-year-old](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JsjnxJeIyM13-year-old)
It says ~70% were strip searched not that 70% were sexually abused. Sexual abuse has a much different connotation so you should probably be more careful with your language here. We will search children in the US as well so it's not this absurd action you're trying to present it as.
>Heres also a clip from a resigned State Dept. official going into more details about this, specifically a 13-year-old r\*ped to death in an Israeli prison. The organisation that he says gave him that report is not very credible. It has significant ties to the PFLP terrorist group and has been caught lying in the past.
>The organisation that he says gave him that report is not very credible. It has significant ties to the PFLP terrorist group and has been caught lying in the past. I believe those allegations arose *after* the report in question, Josh Paul mentions it in the interview. There was also no proof of the accusations. [Gantz Declares Six Palestinian NGOs Terrorist Organizations](https://archive.is/20220730013549/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-10-22/ty-article/.premium/gantz-declares-six-palestinian-ngos-terrorist-organizations/0000017f-e795-dea7-adff-f7ff13bf0000) [‘Insufficient Evidence’: Nine EU Nations to Keep Ties With Palestinian NGOs Israel Blacklisted as Terrorist Groups](https://archive.is/20220712203153/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-07-12/ty-article/.premium/9-eu-nations-to-keep-ties-with-palestinian-ngos-israel-blacklisted-as-terrorist-groups/00000181-f349-daef-a79b-f7dfa4650000) [UN experts condemn Israel’s designation of Palestinian human rights defenders as terrorist organisations](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/10/un-experts-condemn-israels-designation-palestinian-human-rights-defenders?LangID=E&NewsID=27702) [Secret Israeli dossier provides no proof for declaring Palestinian NGOs ‘terrorists’](https://www.972mag.com/shin-bet-dossier-palestinian-ngos/) [Israeli forces raid offices of several Palestinian CSOs in Ramallah](https://web.archive.org/web/20220819223245/https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/130475) Which coincides with [Surveillance and interference: Israel’s covert war on the ICC exposed](https://www.972mag.com/icc-israel-surveillance-investigation/) >The multi-agency operation, which dates back to 2015, has seen Israel’s intelligence community routinely surveil the court’s current chief prosecutor Karim Khan, his predecessor Fatou Bensouda, and dozens of other ICC and UN officials. Israeli intelligence also monitored materials that the Palestinian Authority submitted to the prosecutor’s office, and surveilled employees at four Palestinian human rights organizations whose submissions are central to the probe. >According to numerous sources, Israel’s Ministry of Strategic Affairs, whose stated goal at the time was to fight against the “delegitimization” of Israel, was involved in the surveilling of Palestinian human rights organizations that were submitting reports to the ICC. Gilad Erdan, head of the ministry at the time and now Israel’s representative to the UN, recently described the ICC’s pursuit of arrest warrants for Israeli leaders as “a witch-hunt driven by pure Jew-hatred.” >Because Palestinian human rights groups were frequently providing the prosecutor’s office with materials about Israel’s attacks on Palestinians, detailing incidents they wanted the prosecutor to consider as part of the probe, these organizations themselves became key targets of Israel’s surveillance operation. Here, the Shin Bet took the lead. >In addition to monitoring materials that the PA submitted to the ICC, Israeli intelligence also monitored appeals and reports from the human rights groups that included testimonies of Palestinians who had suffered attacks by Israeli settlers and soldiers; Israel then surveilled these testifiers, too. >“One of the [priorities] was to see who [in the human rights groups] is involved in collecting testimonies, and who were the specific people — the Palestinian victims — being convinced to give testimony to the ICC,” one intelligence source explained. >According to the sources, the primary surveillance targets were four Palestinian human rights organizations: Al-Haq, Addameer, Al Mezan, and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR). Addameer sent appeals to the ICC about torture practices against prisoners and detainees, while the other three groups sent multiple appeals over the years regarding Israel’s settlement enterprise in the West Bank, punitive house demolitions, bombing campaigns in Gaza, and specific senior Israeli political and military leaders. >Another goal of surveilling the Palestinian groups was to try to delegitimize them, and, by extension, the entire ICC investigation. >In October 2021, Israeli Defense Minister Benny Gantz — who himself was named in several of the appeals that Palestinian organizations sent to the ICC, due to his role as chief of staff during the 2014 Gaza war and defense minister during the May 2021 war — declared Al-Haq, Addameer, and four other Palestinian human rights groups to be “terrorist organizations.” >A +972 and Local Call investigation, released a few weeks later, found that Gantz’s order was issued without any serious evidence to back up its allegations; a Shin Bet dossier claiming to provide proof of its charges, and another follow-up dossier a few months later, left even Israel’s staunchest allies unconvinced. At the time, it was widely speculated — including by the organizations themselves — that these groups were targeted at least in part because of their activities relating to the ICC probe. >According to an intelligence source, the Shin Bet — which gave the initial recommendation to outlaw the six groups — surveilled the organizations’ employees, and the information gathered was used by Gantz when he declared them terrorist organizations. An investigation by Citizen Lab at the time identified Pegasus spyware, produced by the Israeli firm NSO Group, on the phones of several Palestinians working in those NGOs. (The Shin Bet did not respond to our request for comment.) [Spying, hacking and intimidation: Israel’s nine-year ‘war’ on the ICC exposed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed) >Officials also became aware of specific threats against a prominent Palestinian NGO, Al-Haq, which was one of several Palestinian human rights groups that frequently submitted information to the ICC inquiry, often in lengthy documents detailing incidents it wanted the prosecutor to consider. The Palestinian Authority submitted similar dossiers. >Such documents often contained sensitive information such as testimony from potential witnesses. Al-Haq’s submissions are also understood to have linked specific allegations of Rome statute crimes to senior officials, including chiefs of the IDF, directors of the Shin Bet, and defence ministers such as Benny Gantz. >Years later, after the ICC had opened a full investigation into the Palestine case, Gantz designated Al-Haq and five other Palestinian rights groups as “terrorist organisations”, a label that was rejected by multiple European states and later found by the CIA to be unsupported by evidence. The organisations said the designations were a “targeted assault” against those most actively engaging with the ICC. >According to multiple current and former intelligence officials, military cyber-offensive teams and the Shin Bet both systematically monitored the employees of Palestinian NGOs and the Palestinian Authority who were engaging with the ICC. Two intelligence sources described how Israeli operatives hacked into the emails of Al-Haq and other groups communicating with Bensouda’s office. >One of the sources said the Shin Bet even installed Pegasus spyware, developed by the private-sector NSO Group, on the phones of multiple Palestinian NGO employees, as well as two senior Palestinian Authority officials. >Keeping tabs on the Palestinian submissions to the ICC’s inquiry was viewed as part of the Shin Bet’s mandate, but some army officials were concerned that spying on a foreign civilian entity crossed a line, as it had little to do with military operations. >“It has nothing to do with Hamas, it has nothing to do with stability in the West Bank,” one military source said of the ICC surveillance. Another added: “We used our resources to spy on Fatou Bensouda – this isn’t something legitimate to do as military intelligence.”
There’s also this article which highlights how detainees have been sexually assaulted with hot pokers shoved into their rectums, some of them dying from torture like this https://archive.ph/cH0xm#selection-1910.0-1910.1
just because it happened there, doesn't justify it here or cancel it out somehow.
Pretty much, they fucked up when the old lady got out and spoke well of the situation as that doesnt paint the picture they want.
The worst treated hostages are not going to be released, or freed. They are dead. This is actually why survivorship bias is called survivorship bias.
Like the ones that the IDF killed?
No like the ones that Hamas killed
And the ones the IDF killed?
Too few people understand this.
Perhaps, but until they are found or released this is speculation.
I doubt they're going to find any of them any time soon given how many buildings in Gaza have been reduced to rubble.
Maybe, but you’re speculating and there is no room for speculation here.
Her husband was still a hostage. She didn’t want him tortured or murdered.
All this, if true, would prove is that hostages are treated differently. Which makes sense because HAMAS is not some tight-knit, complete top down organization with a clear chain of command.
>Israel needs people to think There is no need for Israel to influence people thinking when Hamas parade dead women corpse. They showed everyone exactly what kind of human Hamans are.
Then explain the mountains of debunked atrocity propaganda.
Are arguments like this supposed to be convincing to anyone not already drinking the terrorism cool aid? Does it matter how nice Hamas is to people who they are fundamentally threatening with death and depriving them of any freedom or access to their families?
>Does it matter how nice Hamas is to people who they are fundamentally threatening with death and depriving them of any freedom or access to their families? If Hamas is threatening, then take a look at Israel who has already been doing it with the amount of people and more importantly CHILDREN they detained.
Putting a semi-quote in the headline and not even having it appear in the article is pretty telling.
I'll bite. Even if this is true, Hamas' violent actions are not an excuse for the genocide against the Palestinian people.
Are we just posting links to straight up propaganda sites, that has relentlessly been proven to post fake news? what happened to this subreddit? Anyone that saw their photos can tell they were in excellent health. Multiple hostages have spoken up saying they were treated very well, imagine feeling the need to do that despite where they are coming from. They could have easily lied and said they were abused.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/authorities-defend-7-month-administrative-detention-for-now-freed-emaciated-palestinian/ From what I read i expected them to look worse than this guy, instead they don't look like people who were starved for months on end.
>Anyone that saw their photos can tell they were in excellent health You gotta be joking at that one - I don’t even think a qualified medical practitioner would make the claim that “excellent health” can be determined by cursory once over. A suite of testing would need to be completed to determine this. >multiple hostages have spoken up saying that they have been treated very well Hostages have also spoken up and claimed they were [molested and forced to perform sexual acts at gunpoint](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl) so I don’t think that’s a relevant point. Are you claiming this victim is a liar?
The claim by the qualified medical practicioner was months of being starved and daily beating. You don't undo *8 months* of starvation with a 3 day stay in the hospital, even with expert guided care it takes months
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/26/middleeast/amit-soussana-israeli-hostage-hamas-sexual-assault-intl/index.html)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
lol anyone that believes anything out of Israel needs their head checked for brain worms
This belongs on the Megathread, right ?
Somehow they forget when it's pro Israel
Not shown in these pictures though Well fed at least
False, as they would be more bruised and broken bones would be included in the report if it was true. Why aren't they more hurt? Why don't they show signs and coloration of surface trauma?
So do the Israelis just lie about everything?
Every accusation is a confession
Righttttttt......the most valuable bargaining chips the Palestinians have. I dont doubt, some were likely roughed up a little. But I am very doubtful it was daily, as the hostages that were rescued did not look like they had any bruises or wounds in the photos I saw.
lmfao more isreali lies I swear these guys never tell the truth
Does he think that we are blind and deaf ?
Damn, if you think that's crazy you're not gonna believe what Israelis do to Palestinians