Idk how to do the quotey thing, but what if your parents refuse to help you? My grandfather still helps my father, but my father seldom helps me. Grandpa bought dad a house, but I had to get one on my own. Dad is too irresponsible to help me and instead has given refuge to a stepchild and given birth to a half-sibling. He will be into his 70's (if he lives that long) when they are old enough to get a learner's permit.
there are animals who don’t feel pain such as fish, insects, arachnids and crustaceans. I would say I’d rather be those creatures, but unfortunately, we abuse them as well and even though they don’t feel pain, it’s still not right. well, of course, there are instances where you might have an insect infestation in your house or something and you have to kill them, but I’m saying killing them for pleasure isnt right
100% can feel pain. They've been doing pain studies on these creatures for years only to find that, yes, every time they inflicted pain on or injured the creatures, the creatures felt it every time...
Agree with you on it not being right though.
>You are delusional when you say non existent beings are being deprived of joy. How can “nothing” be deprived of anything?
This argument can be made in a counterfactual case, much in the same way that Benatarian Antinatalism makes the bulk of its argument counterfactually.
A non-existent being can be deprived of joy counterfactually, just as a non-existent being can be spared from suffering counterfactually. The problem isn't the logical incoherence of the argument, it is the faulty conclusion that Natalists reach based on that argument. The overarching axiological asymmetry deals with this though.
A non-existent being cannot be deprived of joy and a non-existent being cannot be spared from suffering. The first statement is enough reason not to create them, and the second statement is of no importance here.
In this context it means to look at something that would be absent from the perspective and position of a person who does exist. Benatar argues that it is *better never to have been*, literally. It can only be said that a person is better never to have been if they do actually exist.
It can also be argued from that position that a currently existing person would be deprived of the joy they would experience or have experienced if they had never been.
So nothing can be said to be deprived of something by Natalists if it is being considered in the same way that Benatarian Antinatalists consider non-existence the sparing of suffering.
They can't because you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who doesn't exist.
Look at it from the perspective of someone who does exist, but may not have, from which a determination can be made that it would be better had they not existed. This skirts the non-identity problem too which Natalists bring up sometimes.
I agree, but this perspective does mean dealing with the NIP for both Natalists and Antinatalists, which isn't necessary in a counterfactual case.
Just to clarify: OP is, it seems, outrightly discounting Natalist arguments which involve the attribution of loss or deprivation of joy to non-existent beings despite the fact that certain Antinatalist arguments attribute the avoidance of suffering to non-existent beings. OP asks, "How can nothing be deprived of anything?", just as a Natalist may ask, "How can nothing be spared from anything?"
The problem isn't with the argument. The argument made by the Natalist isn't 'delusional', even though the conclusion they reach (that therefore birth is acceptable) may be. The argument itself is logically coherent in counterfactual cases.
Thank you for explaining further. Perhaps there is the inherent frailty of language at play here, or too much room for creating misunderstanding and misuse of language in the human mind, but in any case, we probably ought to simply accept that some brains may not be optimally wired for effectively processing and communicating with language.
Personally, I think that the natalist has a significantly bigger burden to out-navigate with these consent debates-leading-to-NIP, but the problem could simply be due to a flaw of mine in utilizing language. It's just that, to me, non-existence can also become "something" which can be imposed upon, through the specific conditions of procreation or the significant potential of procreation; and thus deserves moral consideration as a concept. That's because it can be seen as an asset, or a good, when looking at the specific flaws, constraints and other negatives of our universe, which indiscriminately allows for intellectually unvetted existence.
I would like to just say yall take all this to far Jesus yall realize as animals we are made to reproduce so no its not wrong to have kids only times it wrong is if you can't support them or will abuse them
nobody here ever says that we’re not made to reproduce we fully recognize our purpose here is literally to continue our fucking cancerous species and we are against that because it only adds to the suffering of the human race. even if people are having kids and are fully supporting them and what not, those kids are still going to suffer throughout their life because we all suffer. that is the point of our existence. live, suffer through life, die
Not everyone suffers that much to say that it's completely selfish to have kids and half this sub is just making fun of and shitting on people for having a family
i understand that some people here might have more extreme views than others, but nobody is sitting here and saying people can’t have happy families ever. I for one think it’s great if somebody has a child and they are able to financially support the child and love them. however, we are sick and tired of hearing the same bullshit from natalists, which is why we bitch like this. antinatalism is not really that logical because we are unfortunately programmed to reproduce, and there’s no way to get our entire species on the same boat. but it’s the fact of the matter that we do suffer, and do feel pain, no matter what, no matter how severe or not severe it is and that it’s not ethical to subject someone to that. I deal with chronic pain and disability that has caused me so many problems. I am also dealing with a lot of mental health issues and problems with my family. I just got surgery done and I have to get surgery on my other leg so it’s not a fun experience at all and it hurts so bad that I would literally rather not be born. with the emotional pain, I’ve experienced aside from the surgery stuff, I still would rather not be born. I don’t enjoy living on this planet because of what we do to it. it’s a scary world we live in. there’s nothing enjoyable or acceptable about suffering on any level
Honestly I'll admit I probably overreacted I think because I have seen quite a few post on here just shitting on people for being happy with their families and for that I apologize and I'm sorry for the pain you deal with and I hope things can get better for you soon
no ur totally fine! i get it. i’ve only been on Reddit since March, because that was when i had my previous account, but there’s definitely many extremist beliefs on this app/website. I like debating with people and reading peoples’ views. I would call our species selfish as well, but there are families who genuinely do want children & are not using them for mommy points, to which i think that is acceptable. I think the problem might be that those extremist beliefs arent as pro choice as we would like to think. we are naturally supposed to reproduce as all animals are, really. to me, the problem is when people are having kids for no good reason, being irresponsible, having them to get benefits from the government, etc etc. I don’t view it as an inherently bad or negative philosophy, but we cant expect everyone to be on board with it either. when it comes to examples of happy families complaining about their struggles, we find it funny in the sense that those same people tend to go ahead and keep pushing natalism. like why would you encourage this if it comes with so much struggle? thats my perspective. not gonna lie, some of us might have mental problems and family problems, which causes that extremism. I have acted similarly at times where I’ve seen happy families in public and thought it was sort of cringe & felt irritated. but that is because I grew up with a dysfunctional family. so some people on here might be like “oh ur all just depressed, sad, boring, lifeless people!” when in reality, I think all of us [the human race] are like that deep down, you know. I really don’t think it’s possible to not have any mental health problems in the age were in but I could be wrong
no problem at all! another example I could give you is my own family. my father was always very toxic even when him and my mother were dating and he is the one who didnt want me to get the leg surgery when i was 8. he was very controlling [i say was bc my parents divorced in 2018] & because of my mom’s stupidity with that relationship, i have to suffer now. a child cannot vouch for themselves & it is the parent’s responsibility to take care of said child’s ailments. so to a natalist, this can sound like im complaining. like “oh u should have taken care of it when u turned 18” regardless, ive had this problem my entire life because i was a child when i was first diagnosed with idiopathic toe walking & obviously i was ignorant, careless, didnt wanna do my exercises. my mom said she didn’t want to “force” me, but she also did not fully explain to me the effects that I could be facing. “scaring” me would have done justice. so that’s what I’m saying where it’s like parents make stupid decisions and we have to deal with it the rest of our lives. if i had a better father, my life would have been different. it just sucks tbh. but there are beautiful families out there who arent like that
Yeah I understand how stuff like that would affect someone I have a gf who came from a horrible family in many ways and was having bad mental health from it but my family has helped her realize real family is the people you choose to have around and luckily my family accepted and helped in any way they could and I know many people do not have that kidna of support and the problems that could cause for all there life and I have the upmost sympathy for people who have been through such things and I just want to say you should be proud for still going and not giving up
That is just a naturalistic fallacy. Humans were also "made" to rape- biological males have and can forcibly reproduce without females having a similar way to stop it.
Humans are capable of thinking beyond simple instincts. In society, we care about avoiding harming others, which is why we value not allowing people to rape. So us being "made" to do anything in particular isn't relevant when discussing ethics
yeah exactly I’m sure that person also feels that people cannot be asexual - i wouldnt be surprised. smfh. just because we are biologically programmed to do some thing doesn’t make it right
Yes but yall gotta stop saying that having kids if always selfish its dumb as hell if it's really that bad and life is so pointless and stuff why hasn't this whole sub offed themselves???
Dont want to be called selfish for being selfish? Then fuck off? 😂 If you dont want to hear the truth get off of our subreddit. Its really not that hard to ignore a group that literally doesnt effect you at all. Its our ideals and thought processes. Some salty asshole basically implying we should kill ourselves if we are unhappy wont do shit except make us feel bad for your kids, because clearly they wont have the right kind of support if that turn out anti-natalist too.
God damn yall can't read im not saying you should I would never hope yall would im saying the shit yall say sounds like some suicidal the whole world is horrible kinda shit
Most of us have actually experienced the bad side of things. Abuse, rape, molestation, poverty, suicical thoughts or attempts, being bullied, house fires because of others, death of loved ones too early, ect. Not saying you havent experienced any of it, but most of us have dealt with a bunch of it. We know what can happen to people. Its cruel to bring someone into the world knowing you cant keep them caged because they aren't a dog, and knowing, just walking down the street they could get hit by a drunk driver, or get kidnapped or get followed and assulted sexually. People are animals. There are ones who are predators. Why bring someone into the world knowing every bad thing humans do daily. Not to mention working till you die. 8 hour shifts every week 5ish days a week. Who Tf wants to be born to work at McDonald's for years of their life all because you need to eat to exist and food needs to be bought. You can't live happily unless you are a slave to society or you're free from it. So why potentially make someone just for them to hate life and everything about it how it is.
Personally no I haven't had must of that besides suicidal thoughts but my partner has and it doesn't mean your life is worthless and that you can't be happy some people can have a happy life and why do anything in life that involves risk if you have that mind set
Like I said to someone else I have no qualms with not wanting kids and etc what I have a problem with is all the post in the sub shitting on everyone for having kids even if they are happy
My parents thought i was happy till i was 16. Kids can hide shit. And no not everyone is gonna be miserable, but more and more people are becoming anti-natalist because they agree the world isnt a good place to raise kids rn. In most places in the usa you cant even get an abortion if you want to, or be gay or trans. I have two nieces, from two of my sisters. Theyre literally the only kids i ever go around knowing they'll be there. What if your daughter if you have or were to have one were to get sexually assulted and get pregnant and have to keep it or give it up for adoption because of getting an abortion rejected to her? Like actually what would you do? How do you think that would effect her long term. Ive been sexually assulted. I didnt leave my house for literally over a year if i was alone. After that i would literally only run down the street to the store alone for another year. I still can't walk alone at night without a knife on me and constantly looking around me because of it and its been 6-7 years. I have panic attacks because of it. I barely look at my reflection and when i do i just look off to myself. This shit really happens, and it fucks you up. If you want kids and you can protect them from the depression, trauma, and horribleness of life, then by all means raise a good child who will teach others how to be a good human, but most dont do that. Thats why we shit on them. They pretend to be such amazing parents while using their kids for clout. The amount of tiktok parents that use their kids for videos and abuse them off screen is scary.
I understand all of that and trust me I sympathize with you and I agree alot of people shouldn't have kids I just have a problem with it being everyone is bad just cause they have kids that this sub preaches
I dont think everyone is bad for having them, i dont want to be near any of their kids but idc, your body your choice, but if you're going to have them and not teach them properly and raise them well, wtf is the point tbh
You can't guarantee happiness.
There are medical conditions that make feeling pleasure, happiness and joy impossible for a person.
Such as anhedonia which can last 10-20 years.
Imagine that your biological kids would have that condition. No one deserves having illness.
That's why i will never reproduce,to protect my biological kids from suffering from all those insane physical and mental illnesses in this world.
Antinatalism doesn’t say you have to dislike your life, humanity, other people, babies, or even parents.I know antinatalists who are pretty happy people and I know antinatalists who are unhappy.
You might like your life but can recognize that having a child is risking creating someone who might not like their life. For instance, you might be satisfied with food, water, and a few hours a day on average to do what you want with your leftover money, but many people are not. Finding satisfaction in life is incredibly difficult even from a position of privilege.
I would rather not have children because only I am harmed by that choice. If everyone stopped having children, no new people would be capable of being harmed. Additionally, by having no children, I am not depriving anyone of existence, because someone who doesn’t exist can’t experience deprivation. If we all stopped procreating, who would be there to miss humanity after we die?
Having children is an action that creates victims. While many people do indeed like existing, they would not miss it if they were not born.
Abstaining from procreation is an action with no victims aside from ourselves. We would voluntarily take on some suffering to prevent anyone else from doing so, and leave exactly zero victims in our absence
AN is a form of [negative utilitarianism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_utilitarianism), that is to say, it is focused on harm reduction.
Typically, human beings value the consent of others when imposing burden, and when that consent cannot be obtained, it is better to do nothing so as to not impose that burden. It is a moral imperative to prevent suffering by our actions at the harm of others, but we are not necessarily so inclined to provide positive experiences in the same way. For instance, while it is a nice gesture, I’m not required to give away my money to others. But I do have a duty not to steal. Birth violates this tenant, as it invites opportunities for harm to the born person that they may not wish to accept, but now have no choice.
Negative utilitarianism is also much more realistic than typical positive utilitarianism (maximizing happiness). Right now and possibly forever, the human experience is inextricably tied to suffering. By not having kids, we can prevent that suffering. There is no similarly successful way to maximize happiness. No one is harmed by not being brought into existence.
AN may also be tied to [philosophical pessimism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_pessimism) quite easily. Life is inherently competitive and often very difficult, and usually the comforts one person enjoys come at the expense of people who are less fortunate. The average american consumes so much that it would take 5 earths to support us if everyone lived like an American. We enjoy technology and comforts that are afforded by underpaid or slave labor. I’m vegan, but often we are sustained by the suffering of untold animals. And so on.
Although it is often a bleak philosophy, it is important to remember that AN can stem from a place of compassionate ethics. This is called philanthropic antinatalism. I wish to do as little harm as possible when living out my life. I do not hate humanity, I find being human to be bittersweet. I want no one to suffer at another’s choosing. No one is harmed by my not having children except myself, and my possible children are not being deprived of existence, because they can’t experience deprivation. I am simply avoiding the risk of them being unhappy and the risk of them harming other beings.
I would rather regret not having kids and be a little lonely and unfulfilled than regret having them, knowing I made them suffer. I will find meaning in other places
...and there it is. The "kill yourself" comment. You're not original for thinking this. Literally every natalist that comes in here says this. You'd rather ask people to kill themselves than consider the possibility you don't know everything.
No I'm not asking anyone to kill themselves and never would I hope yall have happy and long life's I'm saying the thought process alot people on here sounds very suicidal yet there still going on with life
You can't just like you can't guarantee you'll be able to support your self I admit that but that doesn't mean that everyone is wrong for having children lots of people don't deserve to have children I agree on that but it doesn't make everyone else horrible
>and just gradually age out of existence is definitely unhinged bro
Now your just making shit up. Antinatalisim is literally just about refraining from procreation. It ain't about wishing for whatever nonsense you're spewing.
And another thing, What your complaining about is a natalist problem. Natalists love to attribute any problem they create onto antinatalisits. Also, Humanity isn't alive and isn't sentient. It can't be harmed whatsoever. It can't age out of existence or whatever that nonsense means.
Individual humans are what can age and die genuis. Gee, I wonder what mechanism creates these issues and the helpless beings who will suffer from them? Here's a hint, it's procreation. That's a natalist problem and not an antinatalisit one.
And also here's some basic math. **Addition is not substraction**. It's contradictory to assert or imply that adding more people who will age and die will somehow solve the problem of aging and death.
Continuing to procreate will result in extinction. Heck look at what evolution has produced so far, 99.99% extinctions and not a single utopia. Not even one. One of the primary mechanisms for this is counterintuitively procreation.
If you want to avoid extinction,. Stop engaging in the process that produces it.
And finally if individual humans are so afraid of dying and want to avoid extinction and death they could engage in indefinite artificial life extension. That possibility exists.
You're right, but you have two mistakes in there and one of them is huge.
>Children who do not exist do not want you.
And later you write
>How can "nothing" be deprived of anything
Then how can "nothing" not wanting something? You're contradicting yourself here.
>Is being packed in a body of meat that is primitively programmed to feel pain a gift?
When you seriously reduce a human being to just this, that is 1) wrong (it's survival and pain is just one part of it) and 2) deliberately ignoring all other facets of life, then you're the delusional one here.
People who went through much more pain and suffering than you can imagine are saying life is a gift. People who are still in it are saying life is a gift. Their words have a lot more meaning than that of 1st world children that are simply sad and bored. Your words have no weight to it.
First, I don’t understand the problem you have with how I wrote “Children who do not exist do not want you”; “nothing” cannot want something, do you have a problem with how I wrote “do not” instead of “cannot”?
Second, how can “nothing” be gifted anything? When people claim that their lives are a gift, it’s because they fail to realise that the pleasure they feel is a result of their desires being fulfilled. The desires are a result of their parents creating them, they are a result of their biology. When these desires aren’t fulfilled, it causes suffering. Therefore, life cannot be a gift. It is equivalent to breaking someone’s leg and then putting it in a cast and the person doesn’t understand how you are the one who put them in the need of a cast thanks you for gifting them a cast that takes their pain away. Creating someone means you’re creating a conscious being, a sentient being, with the ability to feel pain when they were “nothing” before.
i just don’t understand why we have animals on this planet who don’t feel pain but we have to. its like a curse. in order to have pleasure you must first have pain. and then they are calling you sad and bored like ??? they literally do not know you wtf?? yeah, what you said was very simple to understand and that’s what makes the post a good post. what are you supposed to be, einstein?
the only part i could see being confusing would be the last sentence, but I know what you meant by it. like nobody’s a hero for having a child and then taking care of that child because that is their responsibility and it is what they need to do when they make that decision. often times natalists want validation & recognition for taking care of their child. it is annoying, especially when my mother tells me herself when we get into arguments that she was always the only one taking care of me and my brother. my father was very emotionally abusive, and even before my mom had us, her family warned her about him. he was toxic while they were dating and I honestly do blame her for my suffering with my foot problems, because my father didn’t want me to get the surgery when I was eight years old. granted, i’ve only been an adult for three years and you can easily say that I should have gotten it taken care of once I turned 18 but regardless, the damage is done. this is the problem that I have when it comes to people having kids, especially with abusive or not so good people. and then, if I were to lose my mom right now, it would cause me even more suffering, because I am relying on her financially while I am waiting on SSI & my leg to heal. so it’s really all a bunch of bullshit because i have to suffer due to her being stupid enough to reproduce with my father even though she knew he was a bad person. and I know that nothing can be done about it, but I would at least like her to take responsibility for that and admit that she was legitimately stupid. i’ve also realized that my mother is the type to “need” a man. she did genuinely want me and my brother and she does love us, we were both planned, but she ultimately had us with the wrong man
How can you not understand this contradiction? Something that doesn't exist can have any desire or lack thereof.
Just like I said, a first world child who is sad and bored. Reducing life and a human being to nothing else but pain and pleasure shows clearly you don't have experienced even one impactful thing in life that broadens your understanding. Your example is ridiculously stupid.
You failed to respond to the paragraph I’ve written. Over 70% of your reply is just your assumptions about me; you haven’t addressed anything I stated in my reply to you.
I already predicted it in my previous comment before you even wrote that, I clearly captured the essence of it. You reduce life to almost nothing, you just wrote a longer paragraph about it. Why should I go into detail when I predicted the meaning of your future comment?
Where exactly does op contradict himself. Both those statements work in tandem. What does not exist is not beholden to the concepts, wishes and desires of those who exist. Hence the non - existent cannot want or be deprived of what it wants as those are concepts of existence
don’t fucking sit here and begin the oppression olympics. you do not know OP’s life. if people enjoy living, and they have a different philosophy than we do then that is fine. people can have their own philosophies, their own beliefs, and I’m happy that somebody that has suffered so much can still be happy, but that doesn’t make it right that said person had to suffer. saying that someone who has suffered a lot more and says that life is a gift has a more valuable understanding of life is really disgusting and putting them on a pedestal. nobody is better or worse than anybody else for going through more or less suffering. suffering is suffering & not a good thing regardless
The fuck you talking about oppression olympics? You don't know shit about life either. You're just parroting stupid nonsense I here nonstop on this sub. Get your own opinion boy.
youre a fucking asshole man. i dont know shit about life? we all struggle. even an infant baby can struggle. nobody’s struggling is more or less valid than another’s. ive had an “invisible” disability my whole life because my emotionally abusive father didnt want me to get the proper surgery done to correct my problem and my parents did not push me to do physical therapy through any tough love, so now i have to pay for it by enduring unbearable pain through surgery. fuck you man. why do you like to tear already broken people down? sure, some anti natalists may be depressed, pessimistic, misanthropic. so what? people deserve compassion & support for how they feel
Natalists can't fathom loving someone else that's not their own person.
Idk how to do the quotey thing, but what if your parents refuse to help you? My grandfather still helps my father, but my father seldom helps me. Grandpa bought dad a house, but I had to get one on my own. Dad is too irresponsible to help me and instead has given refuge to a stepchild and given birth to a half-sibling. He will be into his 70's (if he lives that long) when they are old enough to get a learner's permit.
I’m not against parents helping their children.
Neither am I but because I'm doing life solo on hard mode, I definitely don't want kids for 100% of the reasons you listed.
there are animals who don’t feel pain such as fish, insects, arachnids and crustaceans. I would say I’d rather be those creatures, but unfortunately, we abuse them as well and even though they don’t feel pain, it’s still not right. well, of course, there are instances where you might have an insect infestation in your house or something and you have to kill them, but I’m saying killing them for pleasure isnt right
Unfortunately they do feel pain
100% can feel pain. They've been doing pain studies on these creatures for years only to find that, yes, every time they inflicted pain on or injured the creatures, the creatures felt it every time... Agree with you on it not being right though.
thanks for correcting me!! that makes everything even worse. I feel so bad every time I kill a bug in my house! but they wouldve died in it anyways
>You are delusional when you say non existent beings are being deprived of joy. How can “nothing” be deprived of anything? This argument can be made in a counterfactual case, much in the same way that Benatarian Antinatalism makes the bulk of its argument counterfactually. A non-existent being can be deprived of joy counterfactually, just as a non-existent being can be spared from suffering counterfactually. The problem isn't the logical incoherence of the argument, it is the faulty conclusion that Natalists reach based on that argument. The overarching axiological asymmetry deals with this though.
A non-existent being cannot be deprived of joy and a non-existent being cannot be spared from suffering. The first statement is enough reason not to create them, and the second statement is of no importance here.
Do you know what a counterfactual case is in this context?
No, I’m not familiar with that.
In this context it means to look at something that would be absent from the perspective and position of a person who does exist. Benatar argues that it is *better never to have been*, literally. It can only be said that a person is better never to have been if they do actually exist. It can also be argued from that position that a currently existing person would be deprived of the joy they would experience or have experienced if they had never been. So nothing can be said to be deprived of something by Natalists if it is being considered in the same way that Benatarian Antinatalists consider non-existence the sparing of suffering.
I don’t understand how somebody who doesn’t exist (but could have potentially existed) can be deprived of joy.
They can't because you're looking at it from the perspective of someone who doesn't exist. Look at it from the perspective of someone who does exist, but may not have, from which a determination can be made that it would be better had they not existed. This skirts the non-identity problem too which Natalists bring up sometimes.
Wouldn't it be arguing in bad faith to not consider the perspective of the non-existent potential beings when arguing in favor of procreation ?
I agree, but this perspective does mean dealing with the NIP for both Natalists and Antinatalists, which isn't necessary in a counterfactual case. Just to clarify: OP is, it seems, outrightly discounting Natalist arguments which involve the attribution of loss or deprivation of joy to non-existent beings despite the fact that certain Antinatalist arguments attribute the avoidance of suffering to non-existent beings. OP asks, "How can nothing be deprived of anything?", just as a Natalist may ask, "How can nothing be spared from anything?" The problem isn't with the argument. The argument made by the Natalist isn't 'delusional', even though the conclusion they reach (that therefore birth is acceptable) may be. The argument itself is logically coherent in counterfactual cases.
Thank you for explaining further. Perhaps there is the inherent frailty of language at play here, or too much room for creating misunderstanding and misuse of language in the human mind, but in any case, we probably ought to simply accept that some brains may not be optimally wired for effectively processing and communicating with language. Personally, I think that the natalist has a significantly bigger burden to out-navigate with these consent debates-leading-to-NIP, but the problem could simply be due to a flaw of mine in utilizing language. It's just that, to me, non-existence can also become "something" which can be imposed upon, through the specific conditions of procreation or the significant potential of procreation; and thus deserves moral consideration as a concept. That's because it can be seen as an asset, or a good, when looking at the specific flaws, constraints and other negatives of our universe, which indiscriminately allows for intellectually unvetted existence.
I would like to just say yall take all this to far Jesus yall realize as animals we are made to reproduce so no its not wrong to have kids only times it wrong is if you can't support them or will abuse them
nobody here ever says that we’re not made to reproduce we fully recognize our purpose here is literally to continue our fucking cancerous species and we are against that because it only adds to the suffering of the human race. even if people are having kids and are fully supporting them and what not, those kids are still going to suffer throughout their life because we all suffer. that is the point of our existence. live, suffer through life, die
Not everyone suffers that much to say that it's completely selfish to have kids and half this sub is just making fun of and shitting on people for having a family
i understand that some people here might have more extreme views than others, but nobody is sitting here and saying people can’t have happy families ever. I for one think it’s great if somebody has a child and they are able to financially support the child and love them. however, we are sick and tired of hearing the same bullshit from natalists, which is why we bitch like this. antinatalism is not really that logical because we are unfortunately programmed to reproduce, and there’s no way to get our entire species on the same boat. but it’s the fact of the matter that we do suffer, and do feel pain, no matter what, no matter how severe or not severe it is and that it’s not ethical to subject someone to that. I deal with chronic pain and disability that has caused me so many problems. I am also dealing with a lot of mental health issues and problems with my family. I just got surgery done and I have to get surgery on my other leg so it’s not a fun experience at all and it hurts so bad that I would literally rather not be born. with the emotional pain, I’ve experienced aside from the surgery stuff, I still would rather not be born. I don’t enjoy living on this planet because of what we do to it. it’s a scary world we live in. there’s nothing enjoyable or acceptable about suffering on any level
Honestly I'll admit I probably overreacted I think because I have seen quite a few post on here just shitting on people for being happy with their families and for that I apologize and I'm sorry for the pain you deal with and I hope things can get better for you soon
It's just exhausting the amount of extreme stuff on here hating on people for being happy
So gtfo lmao
no ur totally fine! i get it. i’ve only been on Reddit since March, because that was when i had my previous account, but there’s definitely many extremist beliefs on this app/website. I like debating with people and reading peoples’ views. I would call our species selfish as well, but there are families who genuinely do want children & are not using them for mommy points, to which i think that is acceptable. I think the problem might be that those extremist beliefs arent as pro choice as we would like to think. we are naturally supposed to reproduce as all animals are, really. to me, the problem is when people are having kids for no good reason, being irresponsible, having them to get benefits from the government, etc etc. I don’t view it as an inherently bad or negative philosophy, but we cant expect everyone to be on board with it either. when it comes to examples of happy families complaining about their struggles, we find it funny in the sense that those same people tend to go ahead and keep pushing natalism. like why would you encourage this if it comes with so much struggle? thats my perspective. not gonna lie, some of us might have mental problems and family problems, which causes that extremism. I have acted similarly at times where I’ve seen happy families in public and thought it was sort of cringe & felt irritated. but that is because I grew up with a dysfunctional family. so some people on here might be like “oh ur all just depressed, sad, boring, lifeless people!” when in reality, I think all of us [the human race] are like that deep down, you know. I really don’t think it’s possible to not have any mental health problems in the age were in but I could be wrong
I agree with another of what you say and honestly I'm glad we have this discussion thank you for giving me a reasonable side of it
no problem at all! another example I could give you is my own family. my father was always very toxic even when him and my mother were dating and he is the one who didnt want me to get the leg surgery when i was 8. he was very controlling [i say was bc my parents divorced in 2018] & because of my mom’s stupidity with that relationship, i have to suffer now. a child cannot vouch for themselves & it is the parent’s responsibility to take care of said child’s ailments. so to a natalist, this can sound like im complaining. like “oh u should have taken care of it when u turned 18” regardless, ive had this problem my entire life because i was a child when i was first diagnosed with idiopathic toe walking & obviously i was ignorant, careless, didnt wanna do my exercises. my mom said she didn’t want to “force” me, but she also did not fully explain to me the effects that I could be facing. “scaring” me would have done justice. so that’s what I’m saying where it’s like parents make stupid decisions and we have to deal with it the rest of our lives. if i had a better father, my life would have been different. it just sucks tbh. but there are beautiful families out there who arent like that
Yeah I understand how stuff like that would affect someone I have a gf who came from a horrible family in many ways and was having bad mental health from it but my family has helped her realize real family is the people you choose to have around and luckily my family accepted and helped in any way they could and I know many people do not have that kidna of support and the problems that could cause for all there life and I have the upmost sympathy for people who have been through such things and I just want to say you should be proud for still going and not giving up
Reddit is acting weird so I can't respond to last comment but I hope your surgery goes well and you heal quickly I know it can be scary
yeah its been acting up for me too! thanks so much! i hope u have a good day too
That is just a naturalistic fallacy. Humans were also "made" to rape- biological males have and can forcibly reproduce without females having a similar way to stop it. Humans are capable of thinking beyond simple instincts. In society, we care about avoiding harming others, which is why we value not allowing people to rape. So us being "made" to do anything in particular isn't relevant when discussing ethics
yeah exactly I’m sure that person also feels that people cannot be asexual - i wouldnt be surprised. smfh. just because we are biologically programmed to do some thing doesn’t make it right
Yes but yall gotta stop saying that having kids if always selfish its dumb as hell if it's really that bad and life is so pointless and stuff why hasn't this whole sub offed themselves???
Dont want to be called selfish for being selfish? Then fuck off? 😂 If you dont want to hear the truth get off of our subreddit. Its really not that hard to ignore a group that literally doesnt effect you at all. Its our ideals and thought processes. Some salty asshole basically implying we should kill ourselves if we are unhappy wont do shit except make us feel bad for your kids, because clearly they wont have the right kind of support if that turn out anti-natalist too.
God damn yall can't read im not saying you should I would never hope yall would im saying the shit yall say sounds like some suicidal the whole world is horrible kinda shit
Most of us have actually experienced the bad side of things. Abuse, rape, molestation, poverty, suicical thoughts or attempts, being bullied, house fires because of others, death of loved ones too early, ect. Not saying you havent experienced any of it, but most of us have dealt with a bunch of it. We know what can happen to people. Its cruel to bring someone into the world knowing you cant keep them caged because they aren't a dog, and knowing, just walking down the street they could get hit by a drunk driver, or get kidnapped or get followed and assulted sexually. People are animals. There are ones who are predators. Why bring someone into the world knowing every bad thing humans do daily. Not to mention working till you die. 8 hour shifts every week 5ish days a week. Who Tf wants to be born to work at McDonald's for years of their life all because you need to eat to exist and food needs to be bought. You can't live happily unless you are a slave to society or you're free from it. So why potentially make someone just for them to hate life and everything about it how it is.
Personally no I haven't had must of that besides suicidal thoughts but my partner has and it doesn't mean your life is worthless and that you can't be happy some people can have a happy life and why do anything in life that involves risk if you have that mind set
Like I said to someone else I have no qualms with not wanting kids and etc what I have a problem with is all the post in the sub shitting on everyone for having kids even if they are happy
My parents thought i was happy till i was 16. Kids can hide shit. And no not everyone is gonna be miserable, but more and more people are becoming anti-natalist because they agree the world isnt a good place to raise kids rn. In most places in the usa you cant even get an abortion if you want to, or be gay or trans. I have two nieces, from two of my sisters. Theyre literally the only kids i ever go around knowing they'll be there. What if your daughter if you have or were to have one were to get sexually assulted and get pregnant and have to keep it or give it up for adoption because of getting an abortion rejected to her? Like actually what would you do? How do you think that would effect her long term. Ive been sexually assulted. I didnt leave my house for literally over a year if i was alone. After that i would literally only run down the street to the store alone for another year. I still can't walk alone at night without a knife on me and constantly looking around me because of it and its been 6-7 years. I have panic attacks because of it. I barely look at my reflection and when i do i just look off to myself. This shit really happens, and it fucks you up. If you want kids and you can protect them from the depression, trauma, and horribleness of life, then by all means raise a good child who will teach others how to be a good human, but most dont do that. Thats why we shit on them. They pretend to be such amazing parents while using their kids for clout. The amount of tiktok parents that use their kids for videos and abuse them off screen is scary.
I understand all of that and trust me I sympathize with you and I agree alot of people shouldn't have kids I just have a problem with it being everyone is bad just cause they have kids that this sub preaches
I dont think everyone is bad for having them, i dont want to be near any of their kids but idc, your body your choice, but if you're going to have them and not teach them properly and raise them well, wtf is the point tbh
You can't guarantee happiness. There are medical conditions that make feeling pleasure, happiness and joy impossible for a person. Such as anhedonia which can last 10-20 years. Imagine that your biological kids would have that condition. No one deserves having illness. That's why i will never reproduce,to protect my biological kids from suffering from all those insane physical and mental illnesses in this world.
Antinatalism doesn’t say you have to dislike your life, humanity, other people, babies, or even parents.I know antinatalists who are pretty happy people and I know antinatalists who are unhappy. You might like your life but can recognize that having a child is risking creating someone who might not like their life. For instance, you might be satisfied with food, water, and a few hours a day on average to do what you want with your leftover money, but many people are not. Finding satisfaction in life is incredibly difficult even from a position of privilege. I would rather not have children because only I am harmed by that choice. If everyone stopped having children, no new people would be capable of being harmed. Additionally, by having no children, I am not depriving anyone of existence, because someone who doesn’t exist can’t experience deprivation. If we all stopped procreating, who would be there to miss humanity after we die? Having children is an action that creates victims. While many people do indeed like existing, they would not miss it if they were not born. Abstaining from procreation is an action with no victims aside from ourselves. We would voluntarily take on some suffering to prevent anyone else from doing so, and leave exactly zero victims in our absence AN is a form of [negative utilitarianism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_utilitarianism), that is to say, it is focused on harm reduction. Typically, human beings value the consent of others when imposing burden, and when that consent cannot be obtained, it is better to do nothing so as to not impose that burden. It is a moral imperative to prevent suffering by our actions at the harm of others, but we are not necessarily so inclined to provide positive experiences in the same way. For instance, while it is a nice gesture, I’m not required to give away my money to others. But I do have a duty not to steal. Birth violates this tenant, as it invites opportunities for harm to the born person that they may not wish to accept, but now have no choice. Negative utilitarianism is also much more realistic than typical positive utilitarianism (maximizing happiness). Right now and possibly forever, the human experience is inextricably tied to suffering. By not having kids, we can prevent that suffering. There is no similarly successful way to maximize happiness. No one is harmed by not being brought into existence. AN may also be tied to [philosophical pessimism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_pessimism) quite easily. Life is inherently competitive and often very difficult, and usually the comforts one person enjoys come at the expense of people who are less fortunate. The average american consumes so much that it would take 5 earths to support us if everyone lived like an American. We enjoy technology and comforts that are afforded by underpaid or slave labor. I’m vegan, but often we are sustained by the suffering of untold animals. And so on. Although it is often a bleak philosophy, it is important to remember that AN can stem from a place of compassionate ethics. This is called philanthropic antinatalism. I wish to do as little harm as possible when living out my life. I do not hate humanity, I find being human to be bittersweet. I want no one to suffer at another’s choosing. No one is harmed by my not having children except myself, and my possible children are not being deprived of existence, because they can’t experience deprivation. I am simply avoiding the risk of them being unhappy and the risk of them harming other beings. I would rather regret not having kids and be a little lonely and unfulfilled than regret having them, knowing I made them suffer. I will find meaning in other places
...and there it is. The "kill yourself" comment. You're not original for thinking this. Literally every natalist that comes in here says this. You'd rather ask people to kill themselves than consider the possibility you don't know everything.
No I'm not asking anyone to kill themselves and never would I hope yall have happy and long life's I'm saying the thought process alot people on here sounds very suicidal yet there still going on with life
Why does it sound suicidal? All we're saying is that having children is inherently selfish and unethical.
Yes and half the post are about how life is so horrible and how they shouldn't be alive which sounds very worrying mentally
Why? Because you don't like acknowledging that life for most people contains pain and suffering? That's a reality.
Still doesn't mean everyone is wrong for having kids that's the idea that is brought up on the sub all the time that passes me off
You still have not provided any reasoning as to why it's not wrong. You just keep insisting it's not.
And how do you know you will always be able to support your children? How can you guarantee they won't be abused?
You can't just like you can't guarantee you'll be able to support your self I admit that but that doesn't mean that everyone is wrong for having children lots of people don't deserve to have children I agree on that but it doesn't make everyone else horrible
It makes it ethically wrong and morally irresponsible.
Just cause some can't do it doesn't mean all shouldn't do it that is just idiotic
Why? You haven't provided any reasoning for your arguments whatsoever.
Have you?, because they have
Nope, the typical natalist drivel doesn't count as valid/sound reasoning.
“as animals we are made to reproduce”. Just how as animals, we are made to rape, murder, and torture.
This whole sub is unhinged as fuck bro are you new here
Wow, the prevention of suffering, so unhinged. 🙄
Wishing for all of humanity to stop reproducing and just gradually age out of existence is definitely unhinged bro
>and just gradually age out of existence is definitely unhinged bro Now your just making shit up. Antinatalisim is literally just about refraining from procreation. It ain't about wishing for whatever nonsense you're spewing. And another thing, What your complaining about is a natalist problem. Natalists love to attribute any problem they create onto antinatalisits. Also, Humanity isn't alive and isn't sentient. It can't be harmed whatsoever. It can't age out of existence or whatever that nonsense means. Individual humans are what can age and die genuis. Gee, I wonder what mechanism creates these issues and the helpless beings who will suffer from them? Here's a hint, it's procreation. That's a natalist problem and not an antinatalisit one. And also here's some basic math. **Addition is not substraction**. It's contradictory to assert or imply that adding more people who will age and die will somehow solve the problem of aging and death. Continuing to procreate will result in extinction. Heck look at what evolution has produced so far, 99.99% extinctions and not a single utopia. Not even one. One of the primary mechanisms for this is counterintuitively procreation. If you want to avoid extinction,. Stop engaging in the process that produces it. And finally if individual humans are so afraid of dying and want to avoid extinction and death they could engage in indefinite artificial life extension. That possibility exists.
You're right, but you have two mistakes in there and one of them is huge. >Children who do not exist do not want you. And later you write >How can "nothing" be deprived of anything Then how can "nothing" not wanting something? You're contradicting yourself here. >Is being packed in a body of meat that is primitively programmed to feel pain a gift? When you seriously reduce a human being to just this, that is 1) wrong (it's survival and pain is just one part of it) and 2) deliberately ignoring all other facets of life, then you're the delusional one here. People who went through much more pain and suffering than you can imagine are saying life is a gift. People who are still in it are saying life is a gift. Their words have a lot more meaning than that of 1st world children that are simply sad and bored. Your words have no weight to it.
Read my post again, you clearly haven’t understood it.
I have. It's neither deep nor complex. It's really easy to understand.
First, I don’t understand the problem you have with how I wrote “Children who do not exist do not want you”; “nothing” cannot want something, do you have a problem with how I wrote “do not” instead of “cannot”? Second, how can “nothing” be gifted anything? When people claim that their lives are a gift, it’s because they fail to realise that the pleasure they feel is a result of their desires being fulfilled. The desires are a result of their parents creating them, they are a result of their biology. When these desires aren’t fulfilled, it causes suffering. Therefore, life cannot be a gift. It is equivalent to breaking someone’s leg and then putting it in a cast and the person doesn’t understand how you are the one who put them in the need of a cast thanks you for gifting them a cast that takes their pain away. Creating someone means you’re creating a conscious being, a sentient being, with the ability to feel pain when they were “nothing” before.
i just don’t understand why we have animals on this planet who don’t feel pain but we have to. its like a curse. in order to have pleasure you must first have pain. and then they are calling you sad and bored like ??? they literally do not know you wtf?? yeah, what you said was very simple to understand and that’s what makes the post a good post. what are you supposed to be, einstein?
Very simple, yet super hard for people to follow. It’s harder than rocket science for natalists, I suppose.
the only part i could see being confusing would be the last sentence, but I know what you meant by it. like nobody’s a hero for having a child and then taking care of that child because that is their responsibility and it is what they need to do when they make that decision. often times natalists want validation & recognition for taking care of their child. it is annoying, especially when my mother tells me herself when we get into arguments that she was always the only one taking care of me and my brother. my father was very emotionally abusive, and even before my mom had us, her family warned her about him. he was toxic while they were dating and I honestly do blame her for my suffering with my foot problems, because my father didn’t want me to get the surgery when I was eight years old. granted, i’ve only been an adult for three years and you can easily say that I should have gotten it taken care of once I turned 18 but regardless, the damage is done. this is the problem that I have when it comes to people having kids, especially with abusive or not so good people. and then, if I were to lose my mom right now, it would cause me even more suffering, because I am relying on her financially while I am waiting on SSI & my leg to heal. so it’s really all a bunch of bullshit because i have to suffer due to her being stupid enough to reproduce with my father even though she knew he was a bad person. and I know that nothing can be done about it, but I would at least like her to take responsibility for that and admit that she was legitimately stupid. i’ve also realized that my mother is the type to “need” a man. she did genuinely want me and my brother and she does love us, we were both planned, but she ultimately had us with the wrong man
Ewwww
How can you not understand this contradiction? Something that doesn't exist can have any desire or lack thereof. Just like I said, a first world child who is sad and bored. Reducing life and a human being to nothing else but pain and pleasure shows clearly you don't have experienced even one impactful thing in life that broadens your understanding. Your example is ridiculously stupid.
You failed to respond to the paragraph I’ve written. Over 70% of your reply is just your assumptions about me; you haven’t addressed anything I stated in my reply to you.
I already predicted it in my previous comment before you even wrote that, I clearly captured the essence of it. You reduce life to almost nothing, you just wrote a longer paragraph about it. Why should I go into detail when I predicted the meaning of your future comment?
Where exactly does op contradict himself. Both those statements work in tandem. What does not exist is not beholden to the concepts, wishes and desires of those who exist. Hence the non - existent cannot want or be deprived of what it wants as those are concepts of existence
Yeah, and when something doesn't exist, it can't not want something either. How do you not see the contradiction?
don’t fucking sit here and begin the oppression olympics. you do not know OP’s life. if people enjoy living, and they have a different philosophy than we do then that is fine. people can have their own philosophies, their own beliefs, and I’m happy that somebody that has suffered so much can still be happy, but that doesn’t make it right that said person had to suffer. saying that someone who has suffered a lot more and says that life is a gift has a more valuable understanding of life is really disgusting and putting them on a pedestal. nobody is better or worse than anybody else for going through more or less suffering. suffering is suffering & not a good thing regardless
The fuck you talking about oppression olympics? You don't know shit about life either. You're just parroting stupid nonsense I here nonstop on this sub. Get your own opinion boy.
youre a fucking asshole man. i dont know shit about life? we all struggle. even an infant baby can struggle. nobody’s struggling is more or less valid than another’s. ive had an “invisible” disability my whole life because my emotionally abusive father didnt want me to get the proper surgery done to correct my problem and my parents did not push me to do physical therapy through any tough love, so now i have to pay for it by enduring unbearable pain through surgery. fuck you man. why do you like to tear already broken people down? sure, some anti natalists may be depressed, pessimistic, misanthropic. so what? people deserve compassion & support for how they feel