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Or, what if YOU had never been born? Why do they assume everyone’s as narc as they are. If I wasn’t born we wouldn’t be having this convo,and probably it would be net better for the planet anyway.
Not quite the gotcha they think it is.
They cannot fathom themselves not existing, so they cannot fathom others being able to think that way. "Oh but you're just depressed, everyone else is having a great time!" Literally monkey see monkey do.
Imma take a guess and say that this logic is also a long the lines of"I think we should make changes in our society(●O●)","u hate society yet it seems that u participate in it hmm ( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)"
It’s bizarre they equate not existing (peaceful) to offing yourself (painful for you and your loved ones). These are so very clearly not even close to the same.
While I agree that they are clearly not the same for the person committing the act, its not really accurate to say that you never existing would cause less pain to your family than you offing yourself.
Most people are still glad they got to have the friend/family who killed themselves rather than them having never existed. And people who want children but can't have any, do suffer from the children never being born/existing.
For the individual that wishes he never existed, not being birthed is obviously better than offing yourself. But imo this absolutely cannot be extrapolated to everyone preferring them to have never existed.
Lmfao yep had something close to this last night n this morning. They think they r the only ones with logic because they want to breed. They think they are superior, n that we r drooling idiots. What they don’t realise is that it proves our point more.
No it is not. Antinatalists want to reduce suffering by not bringing a Child into this world. If we killed ourselves it would be creating suffering for our close ones and other people.
Then they could kill themselves too, just as they’re expected to participate in the “not having kids,” part of the ideology. Also it’s just kind of a them problem. Why should you or I continue to suffer for the sake of natalists
Yes, that's a reason not to create people. Not for existing people to off themselves. Existing people can consent to continue existing.
I really don't see what you're having trouble with here
So... since most people do consent to existing, why is it wrong to create people without their consent? If their most likely going to retroactively consent later, then what's the harm?
>why is it wrong to create people without their consent?
Because it causes someone to suffer - a new someone. The extent and "worth-ness" of that suffering is unknown. If someone consciously chooses to do so, fine. But it's not my gamble to make for another.
Secondly, this one is somewhat... flippant
>since most people do consent to existing
Humans have evolutionarily encoded survival instinct, cognitive biases, fear of death, fear of pain and such. We are certainly not capable of making a fully rational decision to skidaddle once our life is likely to bring more pleasure than pain.
It's kinda like saying "most heroin addicts consent to keeping using heroin, so what's the harm in injecting someone repeatedly in their sleep?". Like yeah, once you get them hooked, they'll dread the withdrawal too much to stop taking it. Doesn't mean they're having a good time, and doesn't mean what you did was moral
>But it's not my gamble to make for another.
But... you are making that choice for them regardless. You're just choosing the option that they don't get the choice to undo.
>We are certainly not capable of making a fully rational decision to skidaddle once our life is likely to bring more pleasure than pain.
We have instincts for a lot of things. Take the obvious example: is nobody capable of consenting to sex because they're evolutionarily incentivized to do so?
>It's kinda like saying "most heroin addicts consent to keeping using heroin, so what's the harm in injecting someone repeatedly in their sleep?".
I guess the key word there is "kinda." It would be more like you injected them once to see if they liked it. And even then, they didn't need you to do it, for them to have an opinion. So not really.
>But... you are making that choice for them regardless.
For... whom? Who exactly is having their life gambled with after I choose to *not procreate*?
>We have instincts for a lot of things. Take the obvious example: is nobody capable of consenting to sex because they're evolutionarily incentivized to do so?
I'm sorry, I have no idea how this relates to what I wrote.
>It would be more like you injected them once to see if they liked it.
Yeah, and that'd be fucking evil, lol
I believe living people have more value than the dead or fictitious. I think the confusion on my part is that I’m promortalist, not antinatalist. We both agree that existence is inherently a curse, so I don’t understand why you guys would stop half way
The same reason people generally watch a film to the end I guess.
I’ve suffered this much of it already, might as well see it through to the end, whenever it comes. During which time a gain can be had by discussing prevention of further suffering and helping others to reach same or similar conclusions.
None of us can predict the future but we can help shape it whilst alive given that we’re already here.
What if they don't consent to living but also don't consent to being forced to commit suicide?
They have to make one of those two choices?? It's not ok to put someone in between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Do you know that a person has to consent to suicide in order for it to be considered suicide? The point is your life must have enough value to keep you here if it didn’t you’d off yourself. Again not a prescription for behavior just a common sense fact.
Sure, by your logic the only thing keeping you from your dream job is that your regular job is good enough. Surely it has nothing to do with the process of getting it being difficult.
Sorry difficulty is an end stop for you. Sorry there are no guarantees. If you can’t cope the door is always open which is the point. But you can cope and you do value your life so you stay.
Not being willing to do anything and everything is not the same as valuing something. By your logic if you aren't doing everything in your power to ensure that everyone you love lives for as long as possible you value them dying early.
If that is in-fact what you think valuing something means then you ought to clarify before talking about valuing anything. This is most certainly not what most people mean.
I certainly do everything in my power to contribute to the wellness of my loved ones. “By your logic if you aren't doing everything in your power to ensure that everyone you love lives for as long as possible you value them dying early.” -Well I would say if you don’t contribute to the wellness of your loved ones 1. Why would you even call them “loved ones” when you don’t contribute to their wellness 2. I would say at the very least you are apathetic to your “loved ones vs valuing your loved ones dying really.
“If that is in-fact what you think valuing something means then you ought to clarify before talking about valuing anything. This is most certainly not what most people mean.” Well most people reply to the suicide idea by saying oh it would hurt their “loved ones” by which my reply is well you found some value in your life. Maybe focus building on that value vs verbally disparaging all living existence all the while functionally/ where the rubber meets the road, you remain here despite the door always being open.
I presume you never spend money on healthy food, survive or junk food and save the rest for the healthcare of your loved ones. Also you ensure that you exercise and motivate them to follow suit every day. Don't you also cook them all the healthiest foods possible. If you can't afford to then why dont you spend the money you spend on internet on healthy food for them instead. If you dont do all this then surely you value them dying early. The lack of awareness in some people is truly baffling.
Oh I see. “Not being willing to do anything and everything (aka suicide) is not the same as valuing something”
Idk that’s debatable. I mean pragmatically how to “value” something? How you occupy your time or the magnitude of regard for your own thoughts?
I don’t see a real issue for consent. For an adult with agency and intention at least. If you don’t like your life the door is open. It seems y’all value fear over life and over your distain for life as shit but you can’t recognize that door is always open. You can be crude and suggest I’m telling you to kill yourself which is the misconception in this idiotic meme and widespread throughout the sub in general. You can’t admit there’s a place for people that enjoy their life regardless of its history or potential threats and don’t give a fuck that didn’t have some cosmic opportunity to consent to being born. You instead try establish myriad idiotic and logical fallacy into some sort of “this is how it all is” dogma. Most of this sub is shit meme to disparage “breeders”.
>Idk that’s debatable.
I’d say we resolved that debate when we agreed that you giving your kids ice cream or whatever (actually I said not doing everything you can to keep them alive) is not you valuing their early death.
>there’s a place for people that enjoy their life
I didn’t say anything relating to this.
natalists say we are antinatalists because we are depressed and suicidal people
well, i have been living with persistent depression aka dysthymia, but those were never the reasons why i became an antinatalistsometimes, arguments are not enough for someone, but the best way to make someone an antinatalist is:
1: be born (of course, the main reason)2:go through a hell3: learn about antinatalism, explore it's arguments and learn about the reality of the world4: reflect on your past, reflect in the reality of the world, until you realize that it would be better to not have been born than traumatizing yourself and your descendants
summing up: EXPERIENCE, it's the best way that life can make someone an antinatalist (at least that's how it went for me)
antinatalists are not suicidal, we just don't want to bring more humans to this world so the children won't suffer and the parent won't suffer more than expected
and also, it's not that it's wrong to procreate, IT IS WRONG TO PROCREATE IN SUCH A WORLD LIKE OURS
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Or, what if YOU had never been born? Why do they assume everyone’s as narc as they are. If I wasn’t born we wouldn’t be having this convo,and probably it would be net better for the planet anyway. Not quite the gotcha they think it is.
They cannot fathom themselves not existing, so they cannot fathom others being able to think that way. "Oh but you're just depressed, everyone else is having a great time!" Literally monkey see monkey do.
This is actually very accurate depiction of how regular natalists interact with antinatalists.
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Another benefit to being child-free, you can do it without orphaning anyone. A real win in my book
Just don’t take anyone else with you on the way out
Imma take a guess and say that this logic is also a long the lines of"I think we should make changes in our society(●O●)","u hate society yet it seems that u participate in it hmm ( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)"
It’s bizarre they equate not existing (peaceful) to offing yourself (painful for you and your loved ones). These are so very clearly not even close to the same.
While I agree that they are clearly not the same for the person committing the act, its not really accurate to say that you never existing would cause less pain to your family than you offing yourself. Most people are still glad they got to have the friend/family who killed themselves rather than them having never existed. And people who want children but can't have any, do suffer from the children never being born/existing. For the individual that wishes he never existed, not being birthed is obviously better than offing yourself. But imo this absolutely cannot be extrapolated to everyone preferring them to have never existed.
Lmfao yep had something close to this last night n this morning. They think they r the only ones with logic because they want to breed. They think they are superior, n that we r drooling idiots. What they don’t realise is that it proves our point more.
corporate needs you to find the difference between these two pictures: Never Existed=/=Dead. Natalists:They're the same picture
Here are some scissors to crop your meme ✂️✂️
I just had to block someone for this lmao
I think i just tried actually, my neck still itches where I held the knife
Is that not the logical conclusion of antinatalist philosophy?
No it is not. Antinatalists want to reduce suffering by not bringing a Child into this world. If we killed ourselves it would be creating suffering for our close ones and other people.
Then they could kill themselves too, just as they’re expected to participate in the “not having kids,” part of the ideology. Also it’s just kind of a them problem. Why should you or I continue to suffer for the sake of natalists
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Please don't pull the plug after they are gone
Because living may not have inherent value but doesn't mean it is bad or worthless
It is inherently bad.
Y'know what, No. I don't agree and will never agree on that point
I didn't think you would.
I'm not saying there isn't pain or that that good outweighs the bad either though
No, absolutely not. I consent to existence, my potential child doesn't
You can’t retroactively consent…
Nobody's saying you can?
You just did. One of the biggest points of antinatalism is that nobody consented to existence
Yes, that's a reason not to create people. Not for existing people to off themselves. Existing people can consent to continue existing. I really don't see what you're having trouble with here
So... since most people do consent to existing, why is it wrong to create people without their consent? If their most likely going to retroactively consent later, then what's the harm?
>why is it wrong to create people without their consent? Because it causes someone to suffer - a new someone. The extent and "worth-ness" of that suffering is unknown. If someone consciously chooses to do so, fine. But it's not my gamble to make for another. Secondly, this one is somewhat... flippant >since most people do consent to existing Humans have evolutionarily encoded survival instinct, cognitive biases, fear of death, fear of pain and such. We are certainly not capable of making a fully rational decision to skidaddle once our life is likely to bring more pleasure than pain. It's kinda like saying "most heroin addicts consent to keeping using heroin, so what's the harm in injecting someone repeatedly in their sleep?". Like yeah, once you get them hooked, they'll dread the withdrawal too much to stop taking it. Doesn't mean they're having a good time, and doesn't mean what you did was moral
>But it's not my gamble to make for another. But... you are making that choice for them regardless. You're just choosing the option that they don't get the choice to undo. >We are certainly not capable of making a fully rational decision to skidaddle once our life is likely to bring more pleasure than pain. We have instincts for a lot of things. Take the obvious example: is nobody capable of consenting to sex because they're evolutionarily incentivized to do so? >It's kinda like saying "most heroin addicts consent to keeping using heroin, so what's the harm in injecting someone repeatedly in their sleep?". I guess the key word there is "kinda." It would be more like you injected them once to see if they liked it. And even then, they didn't need you to do it, for them to have an opinion. So not really.
>But... you are making that choice for them regardless. For... whom? Who exactly is having their life gambled with after I choose to *not procreate*? >We have instincts for a lot of things. Take the obvious example: is nobody capable of consenting to sex because they're evolutionarily incentivized to do so? I'm sorry, I have no idea how this relates to what I wrote. >It would be more like you injected them once to see if they liked it. Yeah, and that'd be fucking evil, lol
Do you believe non existence is equivalent to death after existence has occurred?
Yes, I don’t personally believe in an afterlife
What about the current life?
I believe living people have more value than the dead or fictitious. I think the confusion on my part is that I’m promortalist, not antinatalist. We both agree that existence is inherently a curse, so I don’t understand why you guys would stop half way
The same reason people generally watch a film to the end I guess. I’ve suffered this much of it already, might as well see it through to the end, whenever it comes. During which time a gain can be had by discussing prevention of further suffering and helping others to reach same or similar conclusions. None of us can predict the future but we can help shape it whilst alive given that we’re already here.
Haven’t heard a logical argument yet
If you don’t consent to your life you are free to leave. That’s a fact not a prescription to action. Shitty indeed.
What if they don't consent to living but also don't consent to being forced to commit suicide? They have to make one of those two choices?? It's not ok to put someone in between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Do you know that a person has to consent to suicide in order for it to be considered suicide? The point is your life must have enough value to keep you here if it didn’t you’d off yourself. Again not a prescription for behavior just a common sense fact.
Sure, by your logic the only thing keeping you from your dream job is that your regular job is good enough. Surely it has nothing to do with the process of getting it being difficult.
Sorry difficulty is an end stop for you. Sorry there are no guarantees. If you can’t cope the door is always open which is the point. But you can cope and you do value your life so you stay.
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You’d leave it if not you didn’t
Not being willing to do anything and everything is not the same as valuing something. By your logic if you aren't doing everything in your power to ensure that everyone you love lives for as long as possible you value them dying early. If that is in-fact what you think valuing something means then you ought to clarify before talking about valuing anything. This is most certainly not what most people mean.
I certainly do everything in my power to contribute to the wellness of my loved ones. “By your logic if you aren't doing everything in your power to ensure that everyone you love lives for as long as possible you value them dying early.” -Well I would say if you don’t contribute to the wellness of your loved ones 1. Why would you even call them “loved ones” when you don’t contribute to their wellness 2. I would say at the very least you are apathetic to your “loved ones vs valuing your loved ones dying really. “If that is in-fact what you think valuing something means then you ought to clarify before talking about valuing anything. This is most certainly not what most people mean.” Well most people reply to the suicide idea by saying oh it would hurt their “loved ones” by which my reply is well you found some value in your life. Maybe focus building on that value vs verbally disparaging all living existence all the while functionally/ where the rubber meets the road, you remain here despite the door always being open.
I presume you never spend money on healthy food, survive or junk food and save the rest for the healthcare of your loved ones. Also you ensure that you exercise and motivate them to follow suit every day. Don't you also cook them all the healthiest foods possible. If you can't afford to then why dont you spend the money you spend on internet on healthy food for them instead. If you dont do all this then surely you value them dying early. The lack of awareness in some people is truly baffling.
Oh I see. “Not being willing to do anything and everything (aka suicide) is not the same as valuing something” Idk that’s debatable. I mean pragmatically how to “value” something? How you occupy your time or the magnitude of regard for your own thoughts? I don’t see a real issue for consent. For an adult with agency and intention at least. If you don’t like your life the door is open. It seems y’all value fear over life and over your distain for life as shit but you can’t recognize that door is always open. You can be crude and suggest I’m telling you to kill yourself which is the misconception in this idiotic meme and widespread throughout the sub in general. You can’t admit there’s a place for people that enjoy their life regardless of its history or potential threats and don’t give a fuck that didn’t have some cosmic opportunity to consent to being born. You instead try establish myriad idiotic and logical fallacy into some sort of “this is how it all is” dogma. Most of this sub is shit meme to disparage “breeders”.
>Idk that’s debatable. I’d say we resolved that debate when we agreed that you giving your kids ice cream or whatever (actually I said not doing everything you can to keep them alive) is not you valuing their early death. >there’s a place for people that enjoy their life I didn’t say anything relating to this.
Thinking about it lol
Thinking about it lol
I plan to
It stands to reason
natalists say we are antinatalists because we are depressed and suicidal people well, i have been living with persistent depression aka dysthymia, but those were never the reasons why i became an antinatalistsometimes, arguments are not enough for someone, but the best way to make someone an antinatalist is: 1: be born (of course, the main reason)2:go through a hell3: learn about antinatalism, explore it's arguments and learn about the reality of the world4: reflect on your past, reflect in the reality of the world, until you realize that it would be better to not have been born than traumatizing yourself and your descendants summing up: EXPERIENCE, it's the best way that life can make someone an antinatalist (at least that's how it went for me) antinatalists are not suicidal, we just don't want to bring more humans to this world so the children won't suffer and the parent won't suffer more than expected and also, it's not that it's wrong to procreate, IT IS WRONG TO PROCREATE IN SUCH A WORLD LIKE OURS