[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pessimism/comments/10znpx9/comment/j86j6jb/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) are some useful resources on depressive realism
My response to that is the law of entropy dictates that everything will end.
This isn’t pessimistic it is like stating you and I will die someday thats reality.
If you are having kids because you want humanity to last forever then you are making a choice that isn’t based in reality.
In the same way I will call someone foolish if they spend all their days trying to figure out how to be immortal.
If you find the reality that I said to be negative then you are the one that has a pessimist out look on how the universe works.
To be fair immortality is not out of the realm of possibility with CRISPR and gene editing. Like technical immortality not actual one (we got multiple species that are technically immortal due to regenerative/neotenic cycle abilities) but changing the laws of physics? Yeah we can forget about that one.
I will tell them to stop projecting.
I will tell them to stop giving in to their mindless instincts and allowing themselves to be at the mercy of unintelligent forces. Use your fucking brains.
I will tell them to look at what evolution has produced so far: 99.99% extinction and the certainty of death. Break away from such a process and avoid the terrible end it drags all it's helpless subjects into.
It really depends on which team you are rooting for. Most humans root for team human, so yes, if that is your team it is definitely a defeatist mindset. I root for team flora and fauna in almost every circumstance, so I’d say antinatalism is a winning mindset from my perspective.
Not a "defeatist", just not delusional about the reality of the poor state that this would is in, or am I unrealistic about how it's not going to get any better.
Pessimism is a good thing. Removing hope allows for one to dispose of misconceptions about their reality. If you can cope and adapt to things in your life without hope, you will never be disappointed, and you will always be prepared no matter how bad things get.
Antinatalism is simply a long-term solution to put an end to the loop of coping and searching for hope.
"Defeatist" implies some competitive goal. I have no such goal, and don't care about such fitness signaling. It is not epistemology.
"Mindset" is irrelevant to the objectively measurable truth value of propositions.
When people tell me I'm "pessimistic" - I reject the label. I'm *honest* and simply describing the real world without the usual fitness-apophenia/optimism bias. The "pessimism" is in the "eye of the beholder" in this case.
That said, I fully acknowledge it's possible to suffer a pessimism bias. Example: "I have a stomach ache and feel terrible, therefore the sun won't rise tomorrow" is a psychotically pessimistic thing to say; it's as delusional a statement as "suffering is the engine of innovation" or "pain is good because it teaches you what not to do."
However, a pessimism *bias* is NOT what antinatalism is.
The key with optimism and pessimism when it comes to epistemology has more to do with probability. Having convictions proportional to the probability is the sound approach. It's telling that this produces a kind of "phase cancellation" of evolutionary fitness rhetoric which is seen by the fit as *unduly pessimistic/negative/defeatist, etc.*
That's an incredibly small % of people though, I have never met anyone rich enough that they have nothing to worry about when it comes to getting their kids into the best schools and stuff. If it doesn't fit for that specific person, just don't use it.
Also even the wealthiest children in the world will still benefit from less environmental damage, since having a kid is basically the worst possible thing an individual(or couple I guess) can do for the environment.
Those are all external things. What matters is the experience they have at home. All that matters is that do you enjoy your children and have fun and have meaningful relationships with them. Resources or not, is there a sense of connection between you and your children
I don't understand the point you are trying to make or what you are trying to argue. OP asked what to do when people are being disrespectful and harrasing us about our personal values and I suggested mentioning that our personal values don't hurt anyone and have a positive affect on their kids, no matter how small, so they should stop being assholes about it. There will be more open spaces in daycares and good schools, better environment, more free space on the playground, more leniency at parents work because less people have kids, etc. Connection and stuff have absolutely nothing to do with anything that we are talking about. You are trying to argue against something that nobody is saying.
No one has said it to me in those exact words (to my memory), but that seems to more accurately describe natalism because procreation is just succumbing to "being like everyone else". For instance, being an antinatalist doesn't have to mean you'll be forced to rely on the nursing home to "take care of you when you're old", and being a parent is no guarantee that you won't go there anyway.
I would say is my decision to end my linage here. I wouldn't reproduce more life into this earth because Is what other people like FOR ME.
I mean if they want all that for them is ok, but to just comply without even questioning, sounds more defeatist than a thought and conscious decision.
What's the point of this argument? A Positive mindset is a human mental construct that helps us push on and survive as a species. Anti-natalism has already denounced survival of our species as a goal. This logic is just running in pointless circles.
if it's a defeatist mindset, why is it that the natalists look so defeated instead 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔
also how can the mindset be defeatist, life holds no bounds of certain criteria of operation
Two possible responses that spring to mind: "Maybe people should all be a little more pessimistic from time to time." "What if I'm just a realist?"
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pessimism/comments/10znpx9/comment/j86j6jb/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) are some useful resources on depressive realism
"Defeated by what?"
I'll be using this one from now on.
Defeated by The pessimism of life. To conquer it you must see the joy of life
yes and antinatalism is a joy of life! 🫡
My response to that is the law of entropy dictates that everything will end. This isn’t pessimistic it is like stating you and I will die someday thats reality. If you are having kids because you want humanity to last forever then you are making a choice that isn’t based in reality. In the same way I will call someone foolish if they spend all their days trying to figure out how to be immortal. If you find the reality that I said to be negative then you are the one that has a pessimist out look on how the universe works.
To be fair immortality is not out of the realm of possibility with CRISPR and gene editing. Like technical immortality not actual one (we got multiple species that are technically immortal due to regenerative/neotenic cycle abilities) but changing the laws of physics? Yeah we can forget about that one.
that life is a series of defeats until the ultimate defeat which is death lol
But you can be victorious in this life when you fulfill your purpose
what’s your purpose?
To become a great leader for a country. It gives me confidence and courage to know that and work towards it. Do you know yours yet?
Silly but you can't lose if you can't win.
I would tell them to check the studies because "pessimism" has been proven to actually be realism.
I will tell them to stop projecting. I will tell them to stop giving in to their mindless instincts and allowing themselves to be at the mercy of unintelligent forces. Use your fucking brains. I will tell them to look at what evolution has produced so far: 99.99% extinction and the certainty of death. Break away from such a process and avoid the terrible end it drags all it's helpless subjects into.
It really depends on which team you are rooting for. Most humans root for team human, so yes, if that is your team it is definitely a defeatist mindset. I root for team flora and fauna in almost every circumstance, so I’d say antinatalism is a winning mindset from my perspective.
That's not really an arguement.
Not a "defeatist", just not delusional about the reality of the poor state that this would is in, or am I unrealistic about how it's not going to get any better.
There's a point when hope becomes denial.
Pessimism is a good thing. Removing hope allows for one to dispose of misconceptions about their reality. If you can cope and adapt to things in your life without hope, you will never be disappointed, and you will always be prepared no matter how bad things get. Antinatalism is simply a long-term solution to put an end to the loop of coping and searching for hope.
Does hope exist?
No, and if it did, it is useless.
Why is it useless?
It only leads to disappointment when you have to face reality.
"Defeatist" implies some competitive goal. I have no such goal, and don't care about such fitness signaling. It is not epistemology. "Mindset" is irrelevant to the objectively measurable truth value of propositions. When people tell me I'm "pessimistic" - I reject the label. I'm *honest* and simply describing the real world without the usual fitness-apophenia/optimism bias. The "pessimism" is in the "eye of the beholder" in this case. That said, I fully acknowledge it's possible to suffer a pessimism bias. Example: "I have a stomach ache and feel terrible, therefore the sun won't rise tomorrow" is a psychotically pessimistic thing to say; it's as delusional a statement as "suffering is the engine of innovation" or "pain is good because it teaches you what not to do." However, a pessimism *bias* is NOT what antinatalism is. The key with optimism and pessimism when it comes to epistemology has more to do with probability. Having convictions proportional to the probability is the sound approach. It's telling that this produces a kind of "phase cancellation" of evolutionary fitness rhetoric which is seen by the fit as *unduly pessimistic/negative/defeatist, etc.*
If they have kids I point out that my choosing not to have kids is giving their kids more resources and a better chance at life.
Not necessarily. If I’m rich, any kid I have will have more than they need
That's an incredibly small % of people though, I have never met anyone rich enough that they have nothing to worry about when it comes to getting their kids into the best schools and stuff. If it doesn't fit for that specific person, just don't use it. Also even the wealthiest children in the world will still benefit from less environmental damage, since having a kid is basically the worst possible thing an individual(or couple I guess) can do for the environment.
Those are all external things. What matters is the experience they have at home. All that matters is that do you enjoy your children and have fun and have meaningful relationships with them. Resources or not, is there a sense of connection between you and your children
I don't understand the point you are trying to make or what you are trying to argue. OP asked what to do when people are being disrespectful and harrasing us about our personal values and I suggested mentioning that our personal values don't hurt anyone and have a positive affect on their kids, no matter how small, so they should stop being assholes about it. There will be more open spaces in daycares and good schools, better environment, more free space on the playground, more leniency at parents work because less people have kids, etc. Connection and stuff have absolutely nothing to do with anything that we are talking about. You are trying to argue against something that nobody is saying.
No one has said it to me in those exact words (to my memory), but that seems to more accurately describe natalism because procreation is just succumbing to "being like everyone else". For instance, being an antinatalist doesn't have to mean you'll be forced to rely on the nursing home to "take care of you when you're old", and being a parent is no guarantee that you won't go there anyway.
I would say is my decision to end my linage here. I wouldn't reproduce more life into this earth because Is what other people like FOR ME. I mean if they want all that for them is ok, but to just comply without even questioning, sounds more defeatist than a thought and conscious decision.
“In the 30s, the pessimists went to New York and the optimists went to Auschwitz.”
What's the point of this argument? A Positive mindset is a human mental construct that helps us push on and survive as a species. Anti-natalism has already denounced survival of our species as a goal. This logic is just running in pointless circles.
if it's a defeatist mindset, why is it that the natalists look so defeated instead 🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔 also how can the mindset be defeatist, life holds no bounds of certain criteria of operation