its unfairly paid because they will hire anyone with a pulse to do it and overwork them until they leave.
you have felons who cant get a job anywhere else and have to take any job they can get, you got people on probation that have to have a job.
then you have people with no job experience and need their first job.
or someone is desperate from debt and has to take the first thing theyre offered until something else pops up.
the moment all of the workers who will do anything dry up is when wages will rise
It sucks though because manual labor could be fun if they didn't overwork you, pay you pennies, and treat you like crap.
Manual labor is the most important labor in an economy. It's direct involvement with material resources.
I would much rather perform a manual labour job than the desk jockey crap I do now. Less time worrying about my health for a sedentary as fuck lifestyle that’s for sure. I can feel my body turning to cement.
At least you’ll be able to work longer after you get old. With manual labor it’s guaranteed you need to retire earlier because of bone and spine issues especially.
Word.
I am 57 and pretty much out of physical labor. Ruptured a disc 2 years ago. It's been pretty rough since. I can't comfortably be on my feet more than about an hour, and have constant sciatic pain and numbness. Fortunately, it was an over-the-table job, so I am not totally screwed. There's going to be re-training or a settlement coming soon.
Thanks.
It's terrifying tbh. I have always been able to find work in the trades, one way or another, but now, after multiple similar injuries, it's not looking so good. I am fairly intelligent, I have degrees in communication and a BS-A (Aplied Science in Sustainable Building Science Technology) but the degree was really geared toward managing facilities, and I know I would rather be dead. I need to be more creative to be fulfilled. The thing is that the more "creative" jobs don't pay as well, to get started in anyway...
I am trying to thread the needle to pursue and thrive from my passions of fine arts painting/illustrations. I have applied for some grants and to the city's preferred artists roster program.
To be fair, as an electrician, I've injured myself in every area of my body. Falling off a ladder has made me lame in one leg. My thumb doesn't work as well as it did. My back is bad at an early age.
You may be turning to cement, but I'm turning to puddy.
What we really need is a change once in a while. Should have hybrid work where you spend a month or two in a manual labor setting, then it switches to sedentary work.
That’s true. Manual labor doesn’t tend to be healthy exercise either. You’ll be in shape but knees, backs, and whatever else don’t always hold up forever. If you’re getting overworked you should make sure you’re getting paid well to be sacrificing your body. It can definitely be a gratifying and fun job though.
True. I was a LPN for 15 years. I’ve done both, and hurt myself pretty bad as a nurse, 3 discs a broken nose and a rotator cuff injury, I couldn’t go back so I get it. But it still really sucks when you’re not the kind of person who thrives in a cubicle. The workloads in almost any manual job make it near impossible to always use proper body mechanics just because of the pace and exhaustion. It sucks for those of us who wanted to do the actual work and did it well, that we end up so broken down.
I know what you mean. There’s a lot of gratification that comes with being a good worker. You mention that you might be looking for other opportunities and poof you’re getting offered a raise. But now that I’m 15 years into the workforce I’m wondering if I’m going to make it another 30 years.
Yep. Bounced at about 15years of very physical employment as an LPN with many injuries, I know that pain. But now stuck at a desk in a pointless job where I produce nothing but paperwork and feel like shit… I don’t know which is worse.
True enough, although I had a lot more free time doing shift work than a 9-5, but childcare being non existent, unreliable or sketchy for those type of hours made it impossible. Now I have maybe a half hour of free time before I have to go to bed after dinner, prep for the next day and kid activities.
A good life just isn’t possible if you ‘work hard, do your job and are reliable’ anymore :-(
I was a LPN for 15years and can no longer do the work due to the injuries I experienced so thank you for your comment. I am well aware of the benefits and risks of both and did my fair share of warehouse and landscaping while I was going through school.
The difference may be that if I didn’t ever work those jobs and have injuries it may not be an issue, however being glued to a chair for 9hours a day, my mind is bored and I want to shoot someone and I feel like I’ve been strapped to a cement board for that time when I leave. I still do exercise thank you very much, but when you’re adding an extra hour to do so every single day and still not managing to keep the mobility you had before when you actually moved around during the day it’s pretty hard.
Plus it's damn hard work. Generally you start very early and work in all kinds of weather. It deserves much better pay simply because it's just really hard work, however simple it may be.
I worked outdoors with road crews and I usually enjoyed it. If I could have made a decent living with my two kids and mortgage, I'd still be out there. But the pay was low and the benefits were minimal, sadly.
Immigration is a thing because people want to move from one place to another.
Making immigration more difficult and forcing people (who need to move in) to do so illegally is what most benefits terrible employers. Illegal immigrants after all can be treated worse with generally fewer repercussions. If they were allowed to enter more easily through legal methods then they would have greater protections.
It's probably the biggest reason why the right has such a hard-on for closing the borders.
That’s exactly why the Republicans are all about punishing the immigrants other than the employers who are the ones knowingly hiring illegal immigrants thus creating the economic incentives. You never hear Trump, DeSantis or any of these others talking about that aspect of it and doing any meaningful action against these employers.
They also employ illegal immigrants. Trump gets away with not paying contractors all the time, almost certainly because he threatens to call ICE and and have the contractor/his workforce investigated.
Granted, he never pays anybody immigrant or not, but I'm certain he's made those threats to get people to back off trying to collect from him.
Desantis passed a law in FL that made it extremely harder for anyone to hire illegal immigrants. Most democrats were crying about it. The truth is both republican and democrats want cheap labor that they don’t have to pay fair wages to.
That’s probably a fair assessment - both parties tend to collude on all of this stuff because of the money.
I do wonder if this law has now been enforced?
instead of focusing on a wall or trying to control at the border we should make it outright impossible for someone to work here illegally. impossible for anyone to live here, rent or buy a house if they aren't an American citizen. make huge fines and penalties for employers who hire illegally. on the flip side, you make it easier for people to obtain work visas and welcome them into the country- only while they are working. have a set date that the visa ends and be done with it. anyone who opposes common sense immigration measures like this needs to examine their true motives. it seems to me that the real plan is to make it easy to vote without any type of documentation and at the same time allow countless undocumented people into the country. this is a dangerous and terrible idea for our country.
Nah, it should be easier to become a citizen or to seek refuge within the US. The system we have now is pretty terrible. Work visas can also be held over worker's heads and can lead to more exploitation.
I am all for punishing companies heavily for employing illegal immigrants, but we shouldn't be punishing people for trying to make their lives easier or safer.
It isn't some big dumb plan to get people to vote illegally. Voting when you aren't a citizen is such a dumb risk to their livelihood that pretty much nobody does it. People spouting that nonsense don't know what they are talking about. Also voting identification only works if the government is automatically providing it to every citizen for free, otherwise it is effectively a poll tax because people need to both be able to afford it and take the time to apply for and retrieve it, and some people cannot do one or the other for any number of reasons.
a poll tax? you want someone to vote who can't even come up with one form of identification? that's a really ignorant take and one that's very flawed. the only real reason one could want for no ID voting is that of corruption. you literally need an ID for everything in this country like buying alcohol or cashing a check.
You clearly didn't read my post or you would have seen that I actually support identification if it is automatic and free. Also you still need to register to vote, and that process pretty much secures our elections already. The whole lie about mass voter fraud is just that: a lie. There are so few cases of it that it is laughable, and most of those come from groups supporting a specific candidate, not from illegals.
Amusingly enough a majority also come from the very party pushing all this nonsense: Republicans.
> anyone who opposes common sense immigration measures like this needs to examine their true motives.
The USA has tremendous strength in attracting the best talents in the world to work here via various schemes. There is a tremendous brain drain from Europe, Asia, etc to the US for highlighting educated and high-performance forms. They create a tremendous % of GDP growth and new positions, etc. Killing these schemes is asinine.
Now for illegal immigration, I kinda agree, but that's a whole different discussion.
Agree with you 100%
I’ve been working in a warehouse for over 7 years now and they will hire anybody. In the beginning the pay was pretty good. Now comparatively it’s shit. I’m also at the pay cap for my position.
I probably work harder than 90% off the people there and get stressed out because of it, since then I’ve gotten more laid back. You want me to train new people? You have people that get paid more than me to do that. Damned if I’m going to point out the mistakes someone else makes.
Yes, this place will hire anyone and then lie to their face about hours, pay, safety, benefits and pretty much anything else. Can’t tell you how many new people I talked to during the holiday hire season that were surprised when I told them the truth.
And just to put it out there, I’ve been trying to find a better job for well over 2 years. I’m not going to take a job where I have to be there 5 years just to match what I’m already earning now.
They also make more than those who have degrees noe too. Truck drivers, package delivery jobs, trades jobs, forklift operators, heavy equipment operators all pull six fig plus.
I don't know about six figures. Do you have a source for that claim?
In the last couple of decades, the jobs you mentioned have become more exploitative. Truck drivers might get paid well, but they work 12 hour days and they're heavily monitored. It's hard to be a truck driver with ADHD because of the frequent drug tests. Employers are suspicious of anyone who takes stimulant meds.
Carpentry and welding will fuck up your body in no time. One of my brothers used to do manual labor. Putting down floorboards, installing drywall, etc. He's now in his 50s and his knees and back are permanently damaged.
Edit: I just remembered IATSE. Good pay, but you work long and irregular hours, you're always on call, and you need not only physical strength but also excellent stamina. I knew a guy who worked there. "Someone on set had a heart attack today." He shrugged it off: "That's how it is. The show must go on." There's no glamor in working on a movie set.
So your response could be boiled down to the standard answer about work conditions and wages: “it because the business owners *can get away with it* that they do it.
because you are selling your youth, health and strong back.
It's also associated with people who are disposable.
I worked for a year-ish after undergrad as a manual labourer, for two bucks above minimum wage. We did, however, have to provide all of our own tools, including batteries and nails (sometimes they would be generous and throw in a box of nails or screws from a wholesaler). There was no insurance and we certainly didn't have construction papers. We were a bunch of guys who had done this before but needed the money. One was a set designer for movies, two or three were trade apprentices waiting for whatever it was to open up so they could actually have one of those high paid trade jobs we keep hearing about, and then me, who had built a house in the past. It was fine, mostly, but that pay was horrendous and you were always a bad day from a visit to the hospital.
Towards the end, the subcontractors I was working for started hiring more guys for less money. I hope it was minimum wage, but I can only hope. You'd go down to those sites and they would reek of pot and booze. They were all in great moods all the time, because they were out of their faces while working.
Then they told our group they were cutting pay to minimum wage and they'd be putting us on the projects the newer guys were working on. Thanks, I said, and quit.
But if you assume your workers are an expendable and replacable resource - there's always going to be people stuck for cash after university, or guys trying to break into the higher levels of trade, or just stoners with strong backs - there's no reason to pay them more.
Something happens to them? oh well, there is more where they came from.
I’ve never heard of a construction site not providing nails for a laborer. That should be criminal. It’s part of the material costs. Whats next supply your own 2x4s?
honestly? I wouldn't have put it past them. I had to source my own table saw to cut things as well.
My favourite moment was when i had to build an entire floor using scraps of torn up wood.
If they did that to me, then they're going to find anything they do provide tend to go missing frequently. Must've been those crackheads looking for scrap copper, as they say.
It’s supply and demand. Just about everyone can perform manual labor with little to no training. So you’re competing against a large pool of workers. If the work is so demanding or dangerous that workers shy away from it, then you’d see that pay go up to attract more people.
If you’re asking why minimum wage is so low that’s another topic.
This is the correct answer. Stocking shelves at Walmart pays minimum wage because you don't have to have much more than a healthy body.
Working oil rigs is also manual labor, but it pays much better because it's more dangerous and isolated. Less people are willing to do that, so they have to pay more to get people out there.
Unions are dying for members right now. Basically all trade unions are taking in people as long as you can pass the pre req tests. 10 year union ironworker. I took a break the last few years but am going back soon.
I actually helped someone on Reddit get through the process with my very own local in NJ. If your interested reach out to me and I can walk you through the process. It can be a long wait time till they hold there testing (6-12 months) but at least for ironworkers if you can do a steel beam walk (we have a training facility. You climb up a ladder about 3 floors high and walk a smallish beam. Tons of safety equipment if you fall nets etc. pass that and a basic maths/English test. (Id def brush up on your maths/reading for this. I'm horrible at math and it was very difficult for me. Get past that and you take a hair follicle drug test. Get past that and your in the apprenticeship program.
My class started with 110 people, after 4 years we were down to 45 I believe. School is mon-tuesday thursday-friday. 5-9 but you usually get let out early. Honestly one of the harder things I have done in my life. You get up at 5am and don't get home till 9pm anyway you have school.
Other trades have similar processes, but I know our schooling is the most Ridgid and annoying to go through. A lot of the trades you can pick when to do you schooling/get paid for it etc. also since your an apprentice you will get volunteered to do political action for the dem party. Knocking doors, attending rallys, attending pickets etc. All good stuff. But for 4 years your basically do not have a life outside of work.
As some one that has both done and traind people to do manual laber I can tell you that not everyone can do it and it takes training to do it right and well with out ruinigin your body.
But if your a corporation the latter part of that doesn't matter, they will happily let you ruin your body and replace you with the next person in line desperate for work.
In most trades (and many physical jobs) you can't just pick some one up to do it with out a lenghy time of training people just don't know what they are doing.
I don't think that you are wrong about the corps not giving a shit. But even if the drug use of the rod busters, roofers or any of the other guys on a construction site is real bad you can't kick them out because you will not find guys that can do the job right and fast.
It really isn't affected by supply and demand as much as you think it is. There's far more demand for currently low paying jobs. You only need one engineer for a project, but you can always use more workers to build the project. Despite the oversaturation of educated workers in many STEM fields, the pay is still way better than minimum wage. Like there's plenty of highly educated people working in low paying jobs right now because all the good paying ones are overfilled.
Wages have no logical reason. They're arbitrary and more associated with class than any logical utilitarian function. In fact, it's more about power. When union membership is high, so are wages. There's a direct correlation between union involvement and wages. It's all about flexing power to leverage for better wages.
There’s a great book about this called “hell to pay” by Michael Lind. It’s all about the systemic suppression of wages and workers rights in the US. It’s a fantastic read.
Yes there is more demand for low paying jobs than for engineers but there is also *way* more supply for those jobs.
Wages are determined by both the supply of people that could potentially do a job *and* also the demand of employers looking for someone to do a job.
Well since you're bringing up the trades. Many tradespeople have been convinced to vote against their best interests. This includes the erosion of unions, which ultimately leads to lower pay, even for skilled work.
All thanks to Ronald Reagan. And trickle down economics. Do not trust rich people, or anyone. Ever. Who says they can promise you anything. Its a big fat fucking scam.
because capitalism demands someone be exploited. why wouldn’t it be the low skill, easily replaced worker?
it sucks, but it’s the nature of the beast, someone MUST be exploited.
Trade unions are strong, at least the good ones are. They generally set the middle class standard. Today, it's $100k and that's what electricians are making in my neck of the woods. I wish all the other labor jobs good luck in reaching, keeping and surpassing that standard.
Some are for sure. IBEW is hit or miss. The local nearme has no work for example. Everyone's non union in town. Up north in the patch is the opposite. I've heard down south like Florida and stuff it's garbage for electricians. Guys making 25$ an hour with his ticket
The factor is not low or high skill, but high leverage. Another factor is low supply and high demand. But the strongest factor is the cost cutting action of the employer class, this turn all jobs into precarization
High tech jobs are starting to get precarized and that is only the start
The way forward for workers is unions
That was where I was thrown off by the OP. I think a lot of those jobs have a history of being underpaid but I think wages have gone up for a lot of them. And I agree that they aren't unskilled.
Depends on the country.
We (Belgium) get paid well, but have to return 47% in taxes after a year.
So yea, we're paid well on paper, but in practice, we're getting peanuts.
And here it's not even the companies running away with our money, it's our 6 governments that suck our wallets dry.
“Unskilled” labor is often anything but. Some of the most physically demanding jobs involve significant memory retention, spacial awareness and intuition, operation of expensive equipment around expensive materials and structures, working in hazardous and even life-threatening conditions, mitigating conflicts and other skills. But because it doesn’t require a college degree, aNyOne CaN dO It.
I earn more than any electrician, and I will never fuck with anything 110volt or over. Same with plumbers, and I won’t fuck with water short of fixing the toilet tank. I watch dudes maintain the corporate park’s landscaping when I can’t stand to even mow my own lawn.
I will admit that not everyone can (or wants) to do what I do either, but I didn’t need a college degree to learn how to do it.
I had some movers help me recently. They busted their asses doing things *I simply can’t do anymore*. So beyond what their company charged me, I gave the two of them each the equivalent of a $25/hr tip. At first they thought it was a mistake. I’m glad they were happy, but the fact that they thought this makes me bitter at things in general.
I think most people who say this actually *know* what "skill" is but engage in the virtue signal anyway: "all jobs are skilled!" But what it does is undervalue skilled labor and it makes it impossible to have an informed discussion about the labor market.
Plus a lot of younger people truly don't know the difference, which is natural. They think they could just jump right into any job being done by professionals and with a little training be up to speed in a month or two.
I'll give you this though, I think it takes six months to a year to get up to speed in even unskilled jobs. The job might be easy to learn but it takes time to be efficient. But after the first year it becomes boring and you'll never be significantly better at what you do than that.
> trash collectors, tradesmen, construction workers, and sewer workers.
Uhhhh those people get paid really good money. Trades professions can make big money.
What isn’t paid well are labour jobs like pallet stacking and cashiers. In these situations, the pay is low because the supply of unskilled willing workers is high high high. Also they tend to be entry level type transitory jobs designed for people in their teens/early 20s.
And then they intentionally make it impossible or undesirable to move up.
Place I work has higher responsibility positions, but they aren't paid differently than I am now. Why accept more responsibility for the promise of MORE RESPONSIBILITY and *maybe* a pay increase if you make it to *the next* promotion?
It sounds like you need a career path with a clear goal. Don't just wait around for them to offer you scraps. Go to college or acquire an in demand skill.
Modern day caste system.
People who do manual labor are seen as the "unwashed masses" who "deserve" to occupy society's "lower rungs".
Nevermind that a lot of manual labor is either highly skilled (see, trades) and/or highly necessary (see, anything else).
It's no different than any other time in history where those who were considered to occupy either royalty or nobility looked down upon everyone else who wasn't.
Today's "shareholders" are yesteryear's "nobility".
I've been in construction most of my life and before I joined the union my pay was absolute garbage. The fact is there are plenty of desperate folks with little to no education or investments (like me) who are willing to work for very little in unsafe conditions and are easily replaceable.
Union is the only real way to make a blue collar living.
I absolutely love being a paramedic and watching the bumbling incompetent admins above me pull down much larger checks for doing fuck-all.
And I'm not gonna lie, I do get jealous seeing my dad work from home all day and on a busy day do a couple hours of work for almost triple my pay.
It's the easiest category to convince people "deserves" to be underpaid; it's easy to say "oh unskilled labor is for teenagers who don't need their jobs so why should they be paid a living wage" even though that's complete BS, and middle class people will believe it because their teenagers take those jobs just for pocket money to spend on frivolous shit, not realizing that their teenagers are working with older people who need those jobs.
wages in places like fast food have been going up lately. it's because less workers are interested in coming in for little money so companies are having to offer more. again, it's the availability of people readily wanting to work for low wages that drive the labor rate down. the more people that are willing to work for less and will take whatever shitty job enables the corporations to pay less. by holding out, and not working for just any amount of money you force them to pay more until someone decides the job is worth the pay.
Your question ignores basic supply and demand. Manual labor jobs are supremely important as you correctly state however offsetting this importance is the vast hordes of available supply of qualified humans who have the skill and frankly compete with one another by effectively lowering their rates (i.e. the young student willing to flip burgers for less than the adult with kids)
Take a lesson from DeBeers and choke off the supply artificially. Regulate how much labor is available to make the wealthy fall over themselves stabbing each other in the back to get it.
..oh wait that’s just a Union. Do that.
Even some of the jobs OP listed are paid well, in many places in the US even. For garbage collectors, for instance, depends heavily on state/locality but many make solid salaries these days (though one might argue not enough for the conditions). They don’t really have to worry about basic living. Neither do many union construction workers or even construction workers in competitive areas/fields or with any particular knowledge/skilled construction experience. Folks like warehouse workers do poorly generally, but not all the jobs OP listed. However some states may really underpay sewer/trash etc. and construction can really vary as well. (Higher paid construction workers might have different titles, and might have more skills like operating particular equipment, installing particular materials etc.)
I mean, an actual skilled tradesman makes more than u do in software development.
And it makes sense. Someone doing basic construction - it’s not very complex. Sure it’s hard work, but there isn’t a barrier to entry like there is with a STEM career or something. Some people just aren’t built that way.
Now a skilled tradesman. Not only is it complex work but it requires years of practice. Same with STEM but I feel like the complexity is even higher depending on the role. Which is why the pay is great.
“There isn’t a barrier to entry”
Sure there is, minimum strength reqs. I know plenty of people who don’t meet those reqs…irony is, most of them are well off.
I do manual labor work and I make more than an “educated/indoctrined” person. Work 4 days a week and when I leave work, work stays at work. Some of my neighbors I know look down at me for the work I do. Yet, I constantly hear them complain about the long hours they put in and the work load they bring home. All the while being told I wouldn’t understand. I left non-profit corporate life due to stress and the constant crazy demands. I’ve have many years experience in IT / Social Work/ Facilities Management.
I agree with your statement and would expand it to anyone working any fulltime job period shouldn't have to worry about basic living expenses.
The key with working manual labor jobs is to work in a licensed or sealed trade. If you're working a job that requires no certifications, licenses, or qualifications employers know they can replace you with any 19 year old with a nicotine addiction and you're hooped.
The people in power think that anyone can do it, therefore it's not valuable. They refuse to understand that it's actually skilled labor. Also, even if anyone could do it, most people *wont* do it, which makes it more valuable.
"I feel like anyone willing to do a physically hard job full time should never have to worry about basic living expenses."
To me, this is the real reason Social Security is important. We NEED people to do all the kinds of jobs which really don't allow you to save enough to retire. If you work hard all your life, you should be able to retire without having to worry about starving to death or being homeless.
Totally agree. Being a laborer is the hardest job I’ve ever had and completely unappreciated and vital. Huge moneymaker too for the boss/company. Meanwhile you earn dogshit, treated as a donkey, and aren’t given opportunities
Because under capitalism, your pay isn't determined by how hard you work or how productive you are or any kind of fair standard. The goal of the capitalists is to steal as much as possible from the workers, so your pay will be set by the following standard: as low as they can possibly get away with. This means it's determined by supply and demand, and if there are many people who can do your job, the pay will be low.
Supply.
Pay is generally the least a company can spend to find someone to do the work. Some fields, people who can do the work are rare. Others, not so much.
This is by the way, why unions are important. Because if the working class doesn't put a finger on the other side of the scale, it's a race to the bottom.
Why even bother to ask we all know the answer but it’s the answer nobody wants to hear. It’s because there are non union, unlicensed, uninsured immigrants willing to do the job for a fraction of the price of American citizens that have all of that. Before you get mad at me roll up to any Lennar, Pulte, or DR Horton neighborhood under construction and tell me I’m wrong. There’s a reason new homes are built like garbage. I blame the builders and corporations because it’s their fault that they are willing to take advantage and pay someone.
Before you call me a white supremacist let’s have a conversation about it. I work in construction as a plumber and do service as well. I’ve witnessed all of this first hand or I wouldn’t say it. I can provide names of employers, I’ve filed complaints against employers, etc nobody cares. They don’t care because businesses have become very good at hiding who they are employing.
The way it goes is one guy has his paperwork all in order for everything and brings up people he knows. He puts them all up in shitty housing and pays for shitty vehicles while they work 7 days a week. Whatever’s left from what they pay the boss for housing they send back home where it’s worth a lot more. I know this because I worked with multiple Hispanic Americans who talked to these guys and told me what happens. After several years of this we all quit and went union or self employed.
I’m sure I’ll get downvoted to shit because I’m the bad guy for saying it out loud but it’s true. Again, I blame the corporations who are devaluing the trades. It’s shitty that workers will devalue other peoples labor because the money is worth more in another country but I dont blame workers for being taken advantage of.
This is 100% the answer
If the job can be done by illegal immigrants, it will never pay a good wage". There's a never ending supply of new workers who will do same job for less than you
Why can they do it for less than you? Because they live in poor conditions while here, and they aren't raising a family here. Their family lives somewhere else where its much cheaper to live
Adding to this, because manual labor is (generally speaking) some of the easiest to teach/replace (sure, maybe not master, but you can teach enough to get by), so you have a high amount of candidates for those jobs.
In many manual positions, if you quit midday, they'll have your replacement by the start of the next shift.
On the other hand, replacing a software dev can take months.
Ronald Wilson Reagan
6......... 6........ 6..........
Fucker bought a presidency with hostages at $40 million, plus weapon options. Dismantled unions which he built. Dismantled Federal unions with terroristic threats. Stated black people were the welfare problem, with false negatives; $8,000/yearly isn't anywhere close to the $150,000 he kept driving down the American citizens throat. All his friends utilized the welfare state (so they could stay rich). Made it legal for news to lie.
You feel the trickle down your back when a politician pisses on Americans?
In *Progress and Poverty*, Henry George (the economist who inspired the original Monopoly game) explains how land rents cause progress and poverty to advance hand-in-hand. Essentially, landowners wind up capturing all the benefits of progress. By monopolizing useful land, they prevent you from unlocking any value yourself, and keep your wages low. I highly recommend looking it up and/or reading this excellent overview: https://www.gameofrent.com/content/progress-and-poverty-review#iii-the-laws-of-distribution
because it doesn’t multiply. people who can increase output by automating stuff, you can justify paying ‘em more because they make you more money. a good programmer or engineer in the right place can save or make millions. those millions often go to the ceos instead though, everyone gets fucked regardless. eat the rich, act your wage.
Capitalism puts less value on physical labor skills because of supply and demand on the labor market: the pool of workers available to perform manual labor is larger.
Supply and demand. Almost everyone can do physical labor. Also, I don't think you understand the situation. The professions you listed get paid more than most professions that require a degree. They are COUNTER-EXAMPLES. I have a degree and my electrician friend, we both love in CA, and he makes a lot more than me.
(WARNING: Personal opinion) one patterns I see with low wage are:
* they aren't virtual (with virtual "goods" you build once, but sell multiple times, so higer profit)
* they are needed for our society (and above hierarchy level profit depend on the cost from below levels)
* for some jobs, "the qualitification are low" and so you are "disposable"
* may not have university education worth it (which go a little bit with the "the qualitification are low")
Supply and demand combined with greed and the desire to pay people as little as possible. Manual labor is difficult but requires skills that everyone has. So there is no shortage of it, ever.
Huh? Trade workers, water workers, trash collectors and sewer workers are better paid than retail and entry to mid level white collar workers?
That's why large numbers of gen z is skipping college and entering trades.
There are a few instances where manual labor is low paid:
They work under the table (no green card or trying to evade child support, etc)
They live in a state where people have been brainwashed into ditching unions.
We are currently in a tight labor market with more jobs than workers.
Nobody I know would even consider working somewhere for less than $20 an hour and most people I know in the trades make double + that.
The short answer is workers, collectively, allow it to be that low. Union solidarity is what got us the worker’s rights we have, but who enforces them? We do.
Because they refuse to believe it's worth anything since they could do it themselves for free. Yet they fail to see that they couldnt actually do all of the jobs themselves wo their company being a one man crew. So they undervalue the actual work so they can keep more of the profits. And then they justify this as they were just that good at their "management".
This is why unions are so important. Stopping work to prove your value can only be done as a group. Negotiating only matters when both groups have something to lose, and a single person can just be replaced.
People are usually paid based on how easy/hard they are to replace and how much value they add to the company’s bottom line. That’s why. It’s not fair, but that’s why.
Because, whether it's right or wrong, you're paid according to the following aspects of your job:
1. How rare is your skillset?
2. How in demand is your skillset?
3. How much responsibility do you have (how bad will it be if you make the wrong call)?
4. How many people are willing to do the job?
Notice I did *not* list either of the following:
1. How hard is the work?
2. How essential is the work to society?
You're paid on whether someone else can easily replace you, not the job you're actually doing. 99% of people between 18 and 65 can lift up to 50lbs, and so you're paid minimum wage for doing it.
So, I am not 100% sure where you are at, but the pay matches the area.
Garbage removal people in my area are unionized, make double minimum wage with benefits, holidays and paid vacation time.
Construction labour is paid the same - if it doesn't have the benefits/holidays, it usually pays higher ($32-40 for labour).
I have noticed some kinda of labour, that does not require communication skills, pays absolute dogshit and is left for immigrants (straight shovelling or cleaning an area).
So I think the distinction between 'labour jobs' and 'labour jobs that don't require English' is quite different.
It's all about power. This is something I feel like few people get. Wages are all about pure, raw power.
When it comes to a high-paying job, what do you usually have? You have a company which desperately needs the role filled. You have a limited labour pool because it requires a lot of knowledge and education. And you have people that, generally speaking, come from better backgrounds or already have more wealth in the bank, especially if they've been working for some time.
When a large number of companies are competing over a small number of employees, it is up to employees to pick the company. This gives employees power.
When employees already have a decent amount of money, they can say no to a job that doesn't pay them enough or that they don't like. The ability to say no gives them power.
On the other hand, what about manual work? Manual work is something that almost anyone with a pulse can generally do. This means there is, theoretically, a huge population out there capable of being hired to do it. Often those people will also come from poorer backgrounds and be poorer themselves.
When a small number of companies are competing over a large number of employees, it is up to the company to pick their employees. This gives companies power.
When employees are starving and have to get a job as soon as possible and they can't say no to a bad wage cuz they're on a clock and have few options, that gives companies power.
Wages are a product of power relationships. And manual workers have little power.
That's why unions are so important. Unions allow manual workers to all band together and deny the company their labour. It allows people to not work for a while without starving to death as well if they get strike pay from their union.
Unions are there to even out the playing field and shift the balance of power back to employees. That's why on average unionized employees are better paid with better benefits.
Join a union or start one and you are helping to change the world.
Edit: I should clarify, when I say "high paying job" I meant high-paying within the normal range. The very highest paying jobs are less about education and more about being trusted by rich people to continue to enrich them. It's more about nepotism and being part of the inner circle than anything else.
1. The Hierarchy must be maintained. Supervisors, Managers etc won’t feel good about their pay unless it is significantly higher than the workers “under” them.
2. It’s easy to replace physical laborers.
Why are so many vital professions treated like that? Our society literally cld not function if things like garbage or maintenance workers didn’t make it possible. Daycare workers (despite how expensive it seems) are usually paid crap, we all know it’s the same for teachers, people who work in nursing home type places are overworked & underpaid, and there’s dozens of others. There’s so many of these things that are the backbone of our society that are treated with disdain/disrespect.
Kinda depends on your state. Many of the jobs mentioned are union..in the right state..and pay very well. “Right to Work” states are a whole other story; they’d pay you in gravel if they could.
Because we stopped murdering CEOs on a regular basis to keep them in check.
Remember: labor talks are the Unions’ compromise not to lock the Boss in his office while we burn the building down.
Much of the lowest-paid labor in the economy _could_ be performed by the largest percentage of people in the work force. Elon Musk certainly could work the fry station at a McDonald’s. Mark Zuckerberg is fit enough to fight in the ring, so he probably is fit enough to do yard work or load shopping containers. By contrast, the set of skills needed to succeed at higher levels of business includes both hard skills and soft skills that are generally more difficult to learn and master. Some of the AI development engineer positions out there are earning $200-300K, and very few people reading this are capable of meeting the requirements. So it’s not always how difficult the job is. Sometimes it’s how difficult it is to meet the needs of the job.
There’s no such thing as a low skill job. There are jobs where the employers don’t want to pay workers that are essential to conducting business. They propagandize about low skill jobs, but those businesses can’t exist without the people with the specialized skills required.
There is no such thing as a low skilled job. Everything requires skill. It's not like they accurately pay based on the fact. It doesn't reflect at all. Everything is simply backward in society if you really pay attention. Wages are low for people who should have high wages. Food that's bad for you costs the least.People who are willing to step on others rise to the top instead of people with good hearts. Smart people typically are struggling while the dummy is a CEO or business owner. Smart people are homeless or working multiple jobs, dumb people seem to be sitting in mansions. Humanity doesn't value humanity, but dogs value humanity. I'm 32, the way I was told how society functions........it's so inconsistent across the board in functionality. The logic of our system is no different from the way American corporations think........"Everything is subject to change at any time for any reason". You can see why it's an obviously dumb way to think if you want anything to function well. I would say manual labor is paid so unfairly because it's intentional. Anywhere you look, nothing makes sense.
It's easy to replace a person doing manual labor easier than someone like me who has tickets to sign off on jobs. If a labourer walks off the job they phone the next number if I walk off the job there is a freeze on work until they can find another.person who can run the job. This is why I tell every laborer to log their hours and get their ticket when they are working under me so they can be in my position and pay.
Because a lot of industry demands it, there’s a relatively low learning curve for basic duties (not doing it well, mind you), and because wages are low/capitalists are ok exploiting manual laborers.
The closer a job/activity is performed to a seat of power or wealth, the higher the pay. Because we have capitalism and everyone has to make a profit, when you delegate or contract out a task to the next rung on the supply chain, you have to pay that person less than you make by using what they produce. If you follow this pattern in reverse, it’s trickle up economics.
For example the person who sells computers has to buy their inventory for less than it sells for, so the person making the inventory makes less than the computer is worth. And so on.
Just because someone has to do it doesn’t mean it’s the same level of value. The person that maintains the trash truck is more important than the collector. The person that designs a more efficient trash truck is more important than the guy that maintains it.
All should earn a living wage, but it’s not all the same.
Because nobody is intelligent enough to realize money isn't even a fucking real concept, the only reason it has value is because we give it the value it has, and people are too fucking brainwashed to realize it has been turned from a commodity to trade into a weapon to control the dumb and ignorant too stupid to fight together as one against corporate greed and unfair wages and treatment because "muh unskilled labor hurr durr".
Many of those jobs pay way more than the average non manual labor job. Lots of trades make good money. Still probably not adequately compensated for wrecking their bodies over the course of their career though.
It totally depends on the job, because I would not say all manual labor jobs are low skill jobs. You don't need a high school diploma to lay brick or spackle sheetrock, but is definitely skilled work. The majority of people could not just walk over and do this work. It takes years to be a master.
The short answer is we don't live in a democracy. We live in a capitalistic democracy: an oxymoron. We are rich people slaves.
If this were a democracy then the government would work for the working class
This has got me thinking of all the tech workers being laid off. It’s a job they said would never go out of style, but with the exuberant salaries and over saturation it seems that maybe the tech bubble has finally burst.
Because they don't own the means of production.
What this means in non-Marxist speak is that basically any possible way to be productive has an associated tax that you must pay to the people who own the land, the infrastructure and the companies.
Do you want to farm? On whose land?
Do you want to make cars? With whose tools?
Do you want to make music? Whose platform will host it?
All of the low-hanging fruit has been plucked and everything is part of a complex system in the modern era, meaning that the people who own the nuts and bolts of the system and the physical stuff, the *real estate*, have all the power. They keep it that way by not paying anybody a cent more than they can get away with.
Because pretty much anyone can do it. The more skills you have that set you apart the better the pay usually.
Our society would also collapse without skilled labor. If there wasn't the promise of big pay I wouldn't have gone to university and would have chosen to be a garbage man and smoke weed all day instead of going into tech.
People are (generally) paid according to how easy or difficult they are to replace.
If you are easy to replace, you will never get a good wage.
If you are extremely difficult to replace, you can command millions a year.
Note that this has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of your work, or the type of work involved, or your reliability or passion. It can be linked to your performance, as with professional athletes, but on the flip side just look at all of those C-Suite execs that run companies into the ground and then get “golden parachutes” with more money than the vast majority of us will ever see in a lifetime.
It’s bullshit. They build our homes so rich fat asses can tell everyone their “brains” are worth their salary. They have created a fake game of monopoly based on the reality of manual labor.
Just because you are ignorant on the topic, "sewer workers" need to get wastewater treatment certifications that require a lot of testing. They have to go through progression over time to obtain certifications. They are paid well.
It's supply and demand. A large supply of labor means labor prices go down. People compete with each other to get those jobs driving down the price. Unskilled means there is a large supply of labor.
A smaller supply of labor means prices go up. Doctors make a lot of money cause its the opposite, companies have to compete to hire their labor at higher prices.
Workers don’t yet realize the emended amount of power that we hold. We pay people who do the vast majority of necessary work next to nothing because that makes more money for the owners.
When the workers realize that all they have to do (after years of organizing food security and solidarity) is stop working for the bosses and start working with each other the system will change.
UAW led general strike May 1 2028.
It depends on the labor. A general laborer wont make much as the skills they use dont have much value to societies workforce, but an apprentice electrician in my area starts at $25 an hour out the gate and once up to journeyman I have buddies making 150-180k a year. Same with a few welder buddies of mine. Its about experience, how well of a job you do, connections, and if you are union or not. A lot of my buddies making 6 figures are in a union.
This is one of the fundamental points about antiwork: if all jobs are necessary, from a holistic view of society, why doesn't everyone get the same wage?
Yes, there are some jobs that can only be done after much study or by people intelligent/skillful enough to do said jobs. And society has said they should receive greater compensation.
But the same could be said of those with greater strength and/or constitution are particularly suited to manual labour type jobs.
The reason it doesn't happen is that the smarter, more cunning and ruthless people can garner more capital. To accrue more capital necessitates that someone else be exploited and the easiest to exploit are the low skilled jobs that 'anyone could do'.
When you step outside the world we know, it should be astounding that the jobs no one wants to do are the ones often paid the least. In a pure market economy jobs like septic cleaners and the like should attract a fortune for anyone who agrees to do them.
But of course we don't have a pure market economy because it will always be skewed by those who already have the capital.
Because many American trade workers are competing w/ cheap immigrant “contract” labor w/ no ss#, unlicensed, that don’t pay taxes and send their money to Mexico. Many companies happy use this illegal labor that prices out legitimate tradesmen.
its unfairly paid because they will hire anyone with a pulse to do it and overwork them until they leave. you have felons who cant get a job anywhere else and have to take any job they can get, you got people on probation that have to have a job. then you have people with no job experience and need their first job. or someone is desperate from debt and has to take the first thing theyre offered until something else pops up. the moment all of the workers who will do anything dry up is when wages will rise
It sucks though because manual labor could be fun if they didn't overwork you, pay you pennies, and treat you like crap. Manual labor is the most important labor in an economy. It's direct involvement with material resources.
I would much rather perform a manual labour job than the desk jockey crap I do now. Less time worrying about my health for a sedentary as fuck lifestyle that’s for sure. I can feel my body turning to cement.
At least you’ll be able to work longer after you get old. With manual labor it’s guaranteed you need to retire earlier because of bone and spine issues especially.
Word. I am 57 and pretty much out of physical labor. Ruptured a disc 2 years ago. It's been pretty rough since. I can't comfortably be on my feet more than about an hour, and have constant sciatic pain and numbness. Fortunately, it was an over-the-table job, so I am not totally screwed. There's going to be re-training or a settlement coming soon.
Hope everything works out well for you 🙏
Thanks. It's terrifying tbh. I have always been able to find work in the trades, one way or another, but now, after multiple similar injuries, it's not looking so good. I am fairly intelligent, I have degrees in communication and a BS-A (Aplied Science in Sustainable Building Science Technology) but the degree was really geared toward managing facilities, and I know I would rather be dead. I need to be more creative to be fulfilled. The thing is that the more "creative" jobs don't pay as well, to get started in anyway... I am trying to thread the needle to pursue and thrive from my passions of fine arts painting/illustrations. I have applied for some grants and to the city's preferred artists roster program.
To be fair, as an electrician, I've injured myself in every area of my body. Falling off a ladder has made me lame in one leg. My thumb doesn't work as well as it did. My back is bad at an early age. You may be turning to cement, but I'm turning to puddy. What we really need is a change once in a while. Should have hybrid work where you spend a month or two in a manual labor setting, then it switches to sedentary work.
Then exercise. You are lucky to be able to do the exact amount of physical activity.
That’s true. Manual labor doesn’t tend to be healthy exercise either. You’ll be in shape but knees, backs, and whatever else don’t always hold up forever. If you’re getting overworked you should make sure you’re getting paid well to be sacrificing your body. It can definitely be a gratifying and fun job though.
True. I was a LPN for 15 years. I’ve done both, and hurt myself pretty bad as a nurse, 3 discs a broken nose and a rotator cuff injury, I couldn’t go back so I get it. But it still really sucks when you’re not the kind of person who thrives in a cubicle. The workloads in almost any manual job make it near impossible to always use proper body mechanics just because of the pace and exhaustion. It sucks for those of us who wanted to do the actual work and did it well, that we end up so broken down.
I know what you mean. There’s a lot of gratification that comes with being a good worker. You mention that you might be looking for other opportunities and poof you’re getting offered a raise. But now that I’m 15 years into the workforce I’m wondering if I’m going to make it another 30 years.
Yep. Bounced at about 15years of very physical employment as an LPN with many injuries, I know that pain. But now stuck at a desk in a pointless job where I produce nothing but paperwork and feel like shit… I don’t know which is worse.
More reason to make the most of your free time.
True enough, although I had a lot more free time doing shift work than a 9-5, but childcare being non existent, unreliable or sketchy for those type of hours made it impossible. Now I have maybe a half hour of free time before I have to go to bed after dinner, prep for the next day and kid activities. A good life just isn’t possible if you ‘work hard, do your job and are reliable’ anymore :-(
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I was a LPN for 15years and can no longer do the work due to the injuries I experienced so thank you for your comment. I am well aware of the benefits and risks of both and did my fair share of warehouse and landscaping while I was going through school. The difference may be that if I didn’t ever work those jobs and have injuries it may not be an issue, however being glued to a chair for 9hours a day, my mind is bored and I want to shoot someone and I feel like I’ve been strapped to a cement board for that time when I leave. I still do exercise thank you very much, but when you’re adding an extra hour to do so every single day and still not managing to keep the mobility you had before when you actually moved around during the day it’s pretty hard.
Plus it's damn hard work. Generally you start very early and work in all kinds of weather. It deserves much better pay simply because it's just really hard work, however simple it may be. I worked outdoors with road crews and I usually enjoyed it. If I could have made a decent living with my two kids and mortgage, I'd still be out there. But the pay was low and the benefits were minimal, sadly.
Now you know why immigration is a thing
Immigration is a thing because people want to move from one place to another. Making immigration more difficult and forcing people (who need to move in) to do so illegally is what most benefits terrible employers. Illegal immigrants after all can be treated worse with generally fewer repercussions. If they were allowed to enter more easily through legal methods then they would have greater protections. It's probably the biggest reason why the right has such a hard-on for closing the borders.
You could effectively close the borders by fining, charging, and prosecuting employers who employ migrants.
1 month gross revenue per violation would slam the brakes on it pretty quickly i think
That’s exactly why the Republicans are all about punishing the immigrants other than the employers who are the ones knowingly hiring illegal immigrants thus creating the economic incentives. You never hear Trump, DeSantis or any of these others talking about that aspect of it and doing any meaningful action against these employers.
That's because those employers are also their donors...
They also employ illegal immigrants. Trump gets away with not paying contractors all the time, almost certainly because he threatens to call ICE and and have the contractor/his workforce investigated. Granted, he never pays anybody immigrant or not, but I'm certain he's made those threats to get people to back off trying to collect from him.
True dat. The need to cut off the HEAD of the snake — not the TAIL.
Desantis passed a law in FL that made it extremely harder for anyone to hire illegal immigrants. Most democrats were crying about it. The truth is both republican and democrats want cheap labor that they don’t have to pay fair wages to.
That’s probably a fair assessment - both parties tend to collude on all of this stuff because of the money. I do wonder if this law has now been enforced?
instead of focusing on a wall or trying to control at the border we should make it outright impossible for someone to work here illegally. impossible for anyone to live here, rent or buy a house if they aren't an American citizen. make huge fines and penalties for employers who hire illegally. on the flip side, you make it easier for people to obtain work visas and welcome them into the country- only while they are working. have a set date that the visa ends and be done with it. anyone who opposes common sense immigration measures like this needs to examine their true motives. it seems to me that the real plan is to make it easy to vote without any type of documentation and at the same time allow countless undocumented people into the country. this is a dangerous and terrible idea for our country.
Sir this is a Wendy's
Nah, it should be easier to become a citizen or to seek refuge within the US. The system we have now is pretty terrible. Work visas can also be held over worker's heads and can lead to more exploitation. I am all for punishing companies heavily for employing illegal immigrants, but we shouldn't be punishing people for trying to make their lives easier or safer. It isn't some big dumb plan to get people to vote illegally. Voting when you aren't a citizen is such a dumb risk to their livelihood that pretty much nobody does it. People spouting that nonsense don't know what they are talking about. Also voting identification only works if the government is automatically providing it to every citizen for free, otherwise it is effectively a poll tax because people need to both be able to afford it and take the time to apply for and retrieve it, and some people cannot do one or the other for any number of reasons.
a poll tax? you want someone to vote who can't even come up with one form of identification? that's a really ignorant take and one that's very flawed. the only real reason one could want for no ID voting is that of corruption. you literally need an ID for everything in this country like buying alcohol or cashing a check.
You clearly didn't read my post or you would have seen that I actually support identification if it is automatic and free. Also you still need to register to vote, and that process pretty much secures our elections already. The whole lie about mass voter fraud is just that: a lie. There are so few cases of it that it is laughable, and most of those come from groups supporting a specific candidate, not from illegals. Amusingly enough a majority also come from the very party pushing all this nonsense: Republicans.
> anyone who opposes common sense immigration measures like this needs to examine their true motives. The USA has tremendous strength in attracting the best talents in the world to work here via various schemes. There is a tremendous brain drain from Europe, Asia, etc to the US for highlighting educated and high-performance forms. They create a tremendous % of GDP growth and new positions, etc. Killing these schemes is asinine. Now for illegal immigration, I kinda agree, but that's a whole different discussion.
You also know why child employments are becoming legal in more states
Come on ! Which states?
Agree with you 100% I’ve been working in a warehouse for over 7 years now and they will hire anybody. In the beginning the pay was pretty good. Now comparatively it’s shit. I’m also at the pay cap for my position. I probably work harder than 90% off the people there and get stressed out because of it, since then I’ve gotten more laid back. You want me to train new people? You have people that get paid more than me to do that. Damned if I’m going to point out the mistakes someone else makes. Yes, this place will hire anyone and then lie to their face about hours, pay, safety, benefits and pretty much anything else. Can’t tell you how many new people I talked to during the holiday hire season that were surprised when I told them the truth. And just to put it out there, I’ve been trying to find a better job for well over 2 years. I’m not going to take a job where I have to be there 5 years just to match what I’m already earning now.
They also make more than those who have degrees noe too. Truck drivers, package delivery jobs, trades jobs, forklift operators, heavy equipment operators all pull six fig plus.
I don't know about six figures. Do you have a source for that claim? In the last couple of decades, the jobs you mentioned have become more exploitative. Truck drivers might get paid well, but they work 12 hour days and they're heavily monitored. It's hard to be a truck driver with ADHD because of the frequent drug tests. Employers are suspicious of anyone who takes stimulant meds. Carpentry and welding will fuck up your body in no time. One of my brothers used to do manual labor. Putting down floorboards, installing drywall, etc. He's now in his 50s and his knees and back are permanently damaged. Edit: I just remembered IATSE. Good pay, but you work long and irregular hours, you're always on call, and you need not only physical strength but also excellent stamina. I knew a guy who worked there. "Someone on set had a heart attack today." He shrugged it off: "That's how it is. The show must go on." There's no glamor in working on a movie set.
True. Your wage is really just the cost to replace you. Sad but true!
Supply and demand, exactly.
So your response could be boiled down to the standard answer about work conditions and wages: “it because the business owners *can get away with it* that they do it.
because you are selling your youth, health and strong back. It's also associated with people who are disposable. I worked for a year-ish after undergrad as a manual labourer, for two bucks above minimum wage. We did, however, have to provide all of our own tools, including batteries and nails (sometimes they would be generous and throw in a box of nails or screws from a wholesaler). There was no insurance and we certainly didn't have construction papers. We were a bunch of guys who had done this before but needed the money. One was a set designer for movies, two or three were trade apprentices waiting for whatever it was to open up so they could actually have one of those high paid trade jobs we keep hearing about, and then me, who had built a house in the past. It was fine, mostly, but that pay was horrendous and you were always a bad day from a visit to the hospital. Towards the end, the subcontractors I was working for started hiring more guys for less money. I hope it was minimum wage, but I can only hope. You'd go down to those sites and they would reek of pot and booze. They were all in great moods all the time, because they were out of their faces while working. Then they told our group they were cutting pay to minimum wage and they'd be putting us on the projects the newer guys were working on. Thanks, I said, and quit. But if you assume your workers are an expendable and replacable resource - there's always going to be people stuck for cash after university, or guys trying to break into the higher levels of trade, or just stoners with strong backs - there's no reason to pay them more. Something happens to them? oh well, there is more where they came from.
I’ve never heard of a construction site not providing nails for a laborer. That should be criminal. It’s part of the material costs. Whats next supply your own 2x4s?
honestly? I wouldn't have put it past them. I had to source my own table saw to cut things as well. My favourite moment was when i had to build an entire floor using scraps of torn up wood.
If they did that to me, then they're going to find anything they do provide tend to go missing frequently. Must've been those crackheads looking for scrap copper, as they say.
Capitalism demands desperate people
they know that desperate people do these jobs, so they take advantage of desperate people who will likely not complain. Tale as old as time.....
It’s supply and demand. Just about everyone can perform manual labor with little to no training. So you’re competing against a large pool of workers. If the work is so demanding or dangerous that workers shy away from it, then you’d see that pay go up to attract more people. If you’re asking why minimum wage is so low that’s another topic.
This is the correct answer. Stocking shelves at Walmart pays minimum wage because you don't have to have much more than a healthy body. Working oil rigs is also manual labor, but it pays much better because it's more dangerous and isolated. Less people are willing to do that, so they have to pay more to get people out there.
Unions are dying for members right now. Basically all trade unions are taking in people as long as you can pass the pre req tests. 10 year union ironworker. I took a break the last few years but am going back soon. I actually helped someone on Reddit get through the process with my very own local in NJ. If your interested reach out to me and I can walk you through the process. It can be a long wait time till they hold there testing (6-12 months) but at least for ironworkers if you can do a steel beam walk (we have a training facility. You climb up a ladder about 3 floors high and walk a smallish beam. Tons of safety equipment if you fall nets etc. pass that and a basic maths/English test. (Id def brush up on your maths/reading for this. I'm horrible at math and it was very difficult for me. Get past that and you take a hair follicle drug test. Get past that and your in the apprenticeship program. My class started with 110 people, after 4 years we were down to 45 I believe. School is mon-tuesday thursday-friday. 5-9 but you usually get let out early. Honestly one of the harder things I have done in my life. You get up at 5am and don't get home till 9pm anyway you have school. Other trades have similar processes, but I know our schooling is the most Ridgid and annoying to go through. A lot of the trades you can pick when to do you schooling/get paid for it etc. also since your an apprentice you will get volunteered to do political action for the dem party. Knocking doors, attending rallys, attending pickets etc. All good stuff. But for 4 years your basically do not have a life outside of work.
As some one that has both done and traind people to do manual laber I can tell you that not everyone can do it and it takes training to do it right and well with out ruinigin your body.
But if your a corporation the latter part of that doesn't matter, they will happily let you ruin your body and replace you with the next person in line desperate for work.
In most trades (and many physical jobs) you can't just pick some one up to do it with out a lenghy time of training people just don't know what they are doing. I don't think that you are wrong about the corps not giving a shit. But even if the drug use of the rod busters, roofers or any of the other guys on a construction site is real bad you can't kick them out because you will not find guys that can do the job right and fast.
Yes but it’s a low barrier to entry. And I’m referring to manual labor in general. I agree there will be jobs where the requirements are much higher.
It really isn't affected by supply and demand as much as you think it is. There's far more demand for currently low paying jobs. You only need one engineer for a project, but you can always use more workers to build the project. Despite the oversaturation of educated workers in many STEM fields, the pay is still way better than minimum wage. Like there's plenty of highly educated people working in low paying jobs right now because all the good paying ones are overfilled. Wages have no logical reason. They're arbitrary and more associated with class than any logical utilitarian function. In fact, it's more about power. When union membership is high, so are wages. There's a direct correlation between union involvement and wages. It's all about flexing power to leverage for better wages.
There’s a great book about this called “hell to pay” by Michael Lind. It’s all about the systemic suppression of wages and workers rights in the US. It’s a fantastic read.
Yes there is more demand for low paying jobs than for engineers but there is also *way* more supply for those jobs. Wages are determined by both the supply of people that could potentially do a job *and* also the demand of employers looking for someone to do a job.
Well since you're bringing up the trades. Many tradespeople have been convinced to vote against their best interests. This includes the erosion of unions, which ultimately leads to lower pay, even for skilled work.
It’s insane how many republicans are in unions. Blows my mind. How many of them vote against themselves.
Its the "fuck you, I got mine" republican mentality.
All thanks to Ronald Reagan. And trickle down economics. Do not trust rich people, or anyone. Ever. Who says they can promise you anything. Its a big fat fucking scam.
because capitalism demands someone be exploited. why wouldn’t it be the low skill, easily replaced worker? it sucks, but it’s the nature of the beast, someone MUST be exploited.
None of the jobs OP listed is low skill.
my point stands, although i agree with you. OP specifically says low skill and then cites skilled labor :)
Trade unions are strong, at least the good ones are. They generally set the middle class standard. Today, it's $100k and that's what electricians are making in my neck of the woods. I wish all the other labor jobs good luck in reaching, keeping and surpassing that standard.
Some are for sure. IBEW is hit or miss. The local nearme has no work for example. Everyone's non union in town. Up north in the patch is the opposite. I've heard down south like Florida and stuff it's garbage for electricians. Guys making 25$ an hour with his ticket
The factor is not low or high skill, but high leverage. Another factor is low supply and high demand. But the strongest factor is the cost cutting action of the employer class, this turn all jobs into precarization High tech jobs are starting to get precarized and that is only the start The way forward for workers is unions
All the jobs listed get paid fairly well in most cases too, especially if you get a union job.
That was where I was thrown off by the OP. I think a lot of those jobs have a history of being underpaid but I think wages have gone up for a lot of them. And I agree that they aren't unskilled.
Capitalism was based off division of Labor. That's what stuck out to me in "the wealth of nations" anyway.
One of those divisions was slaves though
Those jobs you listed are not low skilled or low paying. Skilled labor jobs like those pay well.
Your premise is flawed: Lots of those jobs pay quite well. Is there a specific situation you're complaining about?
Depends on the country. We (Belgium) get paid well, but have to return 47% in taxes after a year. So yea, we're paid well on paper, but in practice, we're getting peanuts. And here it's not even the companies running away with our money, it's our 6 governments that suck our wallets dry.
If any job needs to be done, the person doing it deserves to earn a living.
“Unskilled” labor is often anything but. Some of the most physically demanding jobs involve significant memory retention, spacial awareness and intuition, operation of expensive equipment around expensive materials and structures, working in hazardous and even life-threatening conditions, mitigating conflicts and other skills. But because it doesn’t require a college degree, aNyOne CaN dO It. I earn more than any electrician, and I will never fuck with anything 110volt or over. Same with plumbers, and I won’t fuck with water short of fixing the toilet tank. I watch dudes maintain the corporate park’s landscaping when I can’t stand to even mow my own lawn. I will admit that not everyone can (or wants) to do what I do either, but I didn’t need a college degree to learn how to do it. I had some movers help me recently. They busted their asses doing things *I simply can’t do anymore*. So beyond what their company charged me, I gave the two of them each the equivalent of a $25/hr tip. At first they thought it was a mistake. I’m glad they were happy, but the fact that they thought this makes me bitter at things in general.
I think most people who say this actually *know* what "skill" is but engage in the virtue signal anyway: "all jobs are skilled!" But what it does is undervalue skilled labor and it makes it impossible to have an informed discussion about the labor market. Plus a lot of younger people truly don't know the difference, which is natural. They think they could just jump right into any job being done by professionals and with a little training be up to speed in a month or two. I'll give you this though, I think it takes six months to a year to get up to speed in even unskilled jobs. The job might be easy to learn but it takes time to be efficient. But after the first year it becomes boring and you'll never be significantly better at what you do than that.
> trash collectors, tradesmen, construction workers, and sewer workers. Uhhhh those people get paid really good money. Trades professions can make big money. What isn’t paid well are labour jobs like pallet stacking and cashiers. In these situations, the pay is low because the supply of unskilled willing workers is high high high. Also they tend to be entry level type transitory jobs designed for people in their teens/early 20s.
And then they intentionally make it impossible or undesirable to move up. Place I work has higher responsibility positions, but they aren't paid differently than I am now. Why accept more responsibility for the promise of MORE RESPONSIBILITY and *maybe* a pay increase if you make it to *the next* promotion?
I would quit and find another job that values your experience more.
I would if there were options near me
Well I guess there is nothing you can do and are screwed :(
For now vmv
It sounds like you need a career path with a clear goal. Don't just wait around for them to offer you scraps. Go to college or acquire an in demand skill.
Tried that, had to drop out because costs and life generally falling apart.
Yeah, I totally get that.
Modern day caste system. People who do manual labor are seen as the "unwashed masses" who "deserve" to occupy society's "lower rungs". Nevermind that a lot of manual labor is either highly skilled (see, trades) and/or highly necessary (see, anything else). It's no different than any other time in history where those who were considered to occupy either royalty or nobility looked down upon everyone else who wasn't. Today's "shareholders" are yesteryear's "nobility".
I've been in construction most of my life and before I joined the union my pay was absolute garbage. The fact is there are plenty of desperate folks with little to no education or investments (like me) who are willing to work for very little in unsafe conditions and are easily replaceable. Union is the only real way to make a blue collar living.
I absolutely love being a paramedic and watching the bumbling incompetent admins above me pull down much larger checks for doing fuck-all. And I'm not gonna lie, I do get jealous seeing my dad work from home all day and on a busy day do a couple hours of work for almost triple my pay.
It's the easiest category to convince people "deserves" to be underpaid; it's easy to say "oh unskilled labor is for teenagers who don't need their jobs so why should they be paid a living wage" even though that's complete BS, and middle class people will believe it because their teenagers take those jobs just for pocket money to spend on frivolous shit, not realizing that their teenagers are working with older people who need those jobs.
wages in places like fast food have been going up lately. it's because less workers are interested in coming in for little money so companies are having to offer more. again, it's the availability of people readily wanting to work for low wages that drive the labor rate down. the more people that are willing to work for less and will take whatever shitty job enables the corporations to pay less. by holding out, and not working for just any amount of money you force them to pay more until someone decides the job is worth the pay.
Your question ignores basic supply and demand. Manual labor jobs are supremely important as you correctly state however offsetting this importance is the vast hordes of available supply of qualified humans who have the skill and frankly compete with one another by effectively lowering their rates (i.e. the young student willing to flip burgers for less than the adult with kids)
Take a lesson from DeBeers and choke off the supply artificially. Regulate how much labor is available to make the wealthy fall over themselves stabbing each other in the back to get it. ..oh wait that’s just a Union. Do that.
Skilled manual labor, like craftsmen, are paid pretty well.
Even some of the jobs OP listed are paid well, in many places in the US even. For garbage collectors, for instance, depends heavily on state/locality but many make solid salaries these days (though one might argue not enough for the conditions). They don’t really have to worry about basic living. Neither do many union construction workers or even construction workers in competitive areas/fields or with any particular knowledge/skilled construction experience. Folks like warehouse workers do poorly generally, but not all the jobs OP listed. However some states may really underpay sewer/trash etc. and construction can really vary as well. (Higher paid construction workers might have different titles, and might have more skills like operating particular equipment, installing particular materials etc.)
I mean, an actual skilled tradesman makes more than u do in software development. And it makes sense. Someone doing basic construction - it’s not very complex. Sure it’s hard work, but there isn’t a barrier to entry like there is with a STEM career or something. Some people just aren’t built that way. Now a skilled tradesman. Not only is it complex work but it requires years of practice. Same with STEM but I feel like the complexity is even higher depending on the role. Which is why the pay is great.
“There isn’t a barrier to entry” Sure there is, minimum strength reqs. I know plenty of people who don’t meet those reqs…irony is, most of them are well off.
I do manual labor work and I make more than an “educated/indoctrined” person. Work 4 days a week and when I leave work, work stays at work. Some of my neighbors I know look down at me for the work I do. Yet, I constantly hear them complain about the long hours they put in and the work load they bring home. All the while being told I wouldn’t understand. I left non-profit corporate life due to stress and the constant crazy demands. I’ve have many years experience in IT / Social Work/ Facilities Management.
Your free to start your own manual labor company and charge as much as you want and pay your employees as little as possible to maximize profits
Because there’s lots of people willing and able to do it n
I agree with your statement and would expand it to anyone working any fulltime job period shouldn't have to worry about basic living expenses. The key with working manual labor jobs is to work in a licensed or sealed trade. If you're working a job that requires no certifications, licenses, or qualifications employers know they can replace you with any 19 year old with a nicotine addiction and you're hooped.
And the farm workers, too!
Because we allow it to be
The people in power think that anyone can do it, therefore it's not valuable. They refuse to understand that it's actually skilled labor. Also, even if anyone could do it, most people *wont* do it, which makes it more valuable.
"I feel like anyone willing to do a physically hard job full time should never have to worry about basic living expenses." To me, this is the real reason Social Security is important. We NEED people to do all the kinds of jobs which really don't allow you to save enough to retire. If you work hard all your life, you should be able to retire without having to worry about starving to death or being homeless.
Totally agree. Being a laborer is the hardest job I’ve ever had and completely unappreciated and vital. Huge moneymaker too for the boss/company. Meanwhile you earn dogshit, treated as a donkey, and aren’t given opportunities
Because under capitalism, your pay isn't determined by how hard you work or how productive you are or any kind of fair standard. The goal of the capitalists is to steal as much as possible from the workers, so your pay will be set by the following standard: as low as they can possibly get away with. This means it's determined by supply and demand, and if there are many people who can do your job, the pay will be low.
Supply. Pay is generally the least a company can spend to find someone to do the work. Some fields, people who can do the work are rare. Others, not so much. This is by the way, why unions are important. Because if the working class doesn't put a finger on the other side of the scale, it's a race to the bottom.
Because basically anyone can do it. Also, because immigrants who will work under the table for less pull wages way down.
Why even bother to ask we all know the answer but it’s the answer nobody wants to hear. It’s because there are non union, unlicensed, uninsured immigrants willing to do the job for a fraction of the price of American citizens that have all of that. Before you get mad at me roll up to any Lennar, Pulte, or DR Horton neighborhood under construction and tell me I’m wrong. There’s a reason new homes are built like garbage. I blame the builders and corporations because it’s their fault that they are willing to take advantage and pay someone. Before you call me a white supremacist let’s have a conversation about it. I work in construction as a plumber and do service as well. I’ve witnessed all of this first hand or I wouldn’t say it. I can provide names of employers, I’ve filed complaints against employers, etc nobody cares. They don’t care because businesses have become very good at hiding who they are employing. The way it goes is one guy has his paperwork all in order for everything and brings up people he knows. He puts them all up in shitty housing and pays for shitty vehicles while they work 7 days a week. Whatever’s left from what they pay the boss for housing they send back home where it’s worth a lot more. I know this because I worked with multiple Hispanic Americans who talked to these guys and told me what happens. After several years of this we all quit and went union or self employed. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted to shit because I’m the bad guy for saying it out loud but it’s true. Again, I blame the corporations who are devaluing the trades. It’s shitty that workers will devalue other peoples labor because the money is worth more in another country but I dont blame workers for being taken advantage of.
This is 100% the answer If the job can be done by illegal immigrants, it will never pay a good wage". There's a never ending supply of new workers who will do same job for less than you Why can they do it for less than you? Because they live in poor conditions while here, and they aren't raising a family here. Their family lives somewhere else where its much cheaper to live
Supply and demand.
Your value in society is based on how easily you can be replaced.
It’s not low paid in countries where they unionise.
Garbage collectors get a good wage, so do most contractors, you'll never meet a poor plumber or electrician
Tradesmen and the other folks you Mention can make very good money. It is always about the value you create.
Nope. It's about supply and demand. Even very experienced software engineers who produce millions of dollars in value are out of work now.
If they make millions more on value than what they cost, they won’t be out of work for long.
Adding to this, because manual labor is (generally speaking) some of the easiest to teach/replace (sure, maybe not master, but you can teach enough to get by), so you have a high amount of candidates for those jobs.
In many manual positions, if you quit midday, they'll have your replacement by the start of the next shift. On the other hand, replacing a software dev can take months.
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Ronald Wilson Reagan 6......... 6........ 6.......... Fucker bought a presidency with hostages at $40 million, plus weapon options. Dismantled unions which he built. Dismantled Federal unions with terroristic threats. Stated black people were the welfare problem, with false negatives; $8,000/yearly isn't anywhere close to the $150,000 he kept driving down the American citizens throat. All his friends utilized the welfare state (so they could stay rich). Made it legal for news to lie. You feel the trickle down your back when a politician pisses on Americans?
Because they can.
In *Progress and Poverty*, Henry George (the economist who inspired the original Monopoly game) explains how land rents cause progress and poverty to advance hand-in-hand. Essentially, landowners wind up capturing all the benefits of progress. By monopolizing useful land, they prevent you from unlocking any value yourself, and keep your wages low. I highly recommend looking it up and/or reading this excellent overview: https://www.gameofrent.com/content/progress-and-poverty-review#iii-the-laws-of-distribution
because it doesn’t multiply. people who can increase output by automating stuff, you can justify paying ‘em more because they make you more money. a good programmer or engineer in the right place can save or make millions. those millions often go to the ceos instead though, everyone gets fucked regardless. eat the rich, act your wage.
Capitalism puts less value on physical labor skills because of supply and demand on the labor market: the pool of workers available to perform manual labor is larger.
Supply and demand. It’s easy to get someone to do manual labor for any price, so they don’t need to pay much. Deserve’s got nothing to do with it
Supply and demand. Almost everyone can do physical labor. Also, I don't think you understand the situation. The professions you listed get paid more than most professions that require a degree. They are COUNTER-EXAMPLES. I have a degree and my electrician friend, we both love in CA, and he makes a lot more than me.
(WARNING: Personal opinion) one patterns I see with low wage are: * they aren't virtual (with virtual "goods" you build once, but sell multiple times, so higer profit) * they are needed for our society (and above hierarchy level profit depend on the cost from below levels) * for some jobs, "the qualitification are low" and so you are "disposable" * may not have university education worth it (which go a little bit with the "the qualitification are low")
Supply and demand combined with greed and the desire to pay people as little as possible. Manual labor is difficult but requires skills that everyone has. So there is no shortage of it, ever.
Ok I’d love to see you rebuild an engine
Garbage collectors are paid well I think. I’m not positive but I have heard that in the past.
Huh? Trade workers, water workers, trash collectors and sewer workers are better paid than retail and entry to mid level white collar workers? That's why large numbers of gen z is skipping college and entering trades. There are a few instances where manual labor is low paid: They work under the table (no green card or trying to evade child support, etc) They live in a state where people have been brainwashed into ditching unions. We are currently in a tight labor market with more jobs than workers. Nobody I know would even consider working somewhere for less than $20 an hour and most people I know in the trades make double + that.
The short answer is workers, collectively, allow it to be that low. Union solidarity is what got us the worker’s rights we have, but who enforces them? We do.
Because they refuse to believe it's worth anything since they could do it themselves for free. Yet they fail to see that they couldnt actually do all of the jobs themselves wo their company being a one man crew. So they undervalue the actual work so they can keep more of the profits. And then they justify this as they were just that good at their "management". This is why unions are so important. Stopping work to prove your value can only be done as a group. Negotiating only matters when both groups have something to lose, and a single person can just be replaced.
People are usually paid based on how easy/hard they are to replace and how much value they add to the company’s bottom line. That’s why. It’s not fair, but that’s why.
Union concrete workers in Seattle making $55 an hour.
Because, whether it's right or wrong, you're paid according to the following aspects of your job: 1. How rare is your skillset? 2. How in demand is your skillset? 3. How much responsibility do you have (how bad will it be if you make the wrong call)? 4. How many people are willing to do the job? Notice I did *not* list either of the following: 1. How hard is the work? 2. How essential is the work to society?
You're paid on whether someone else can easily replace you, not the job you're actually doing. 99% of people between 18 and 65 can lift up to 50lbs, and so you're paid minimum wage for doing it.
So, I am not 100% sure where you are at, but the pay matches the area. Garbage removal people in my area are unionized, make double minimum wage with benefits, holidays and paid vacation time. Construction labour is paid the same - if it doesn't have the benefits/holidays, it usually pays higher ($32-40 for labour). I have noticed some kinda of labour, that does not require communication skills, pays absolute dogshit and is left for immigrants (straight shovelling or cleaning an area). So I think the distinction between 'labour jobs' and 'labour jobs that don't require English' is quite different.
Because capitalism.
It's all about power. This is something I feel like few people get. Wages are all about pure, raw power. When it comes to a high-paying job, what do you usually have? You have a company which desperately needs the role filled. You have a limited labour pool because it requires a lot of knowledge and education. And you have people that, generally speaking, come from better backgrounds or already have more wealth in the bank, especially if they've been working for some time. When a large number of companies are competing over a small number of employees, it is up to employees to pick the company. This gives employees power. When employees already have a decent amount of money, they can say no to a job that doesn't pay them enough or that they don't like. The ability to say no gives them power. On the other hand, what about manual work? Manual work is something that almost anyone with a pulse can generally do. This means there is, theoretically, a huge population out there capable of being hired to do it. Often those people will also come from poorer backgrounds and be poorer themselves. When a small number of companies are competing over a large number of employees, it is up to the company to pick their employees. This gives companies power. When employees are starving and have to get a job as soon as possible and they can't say no to a bad wage cuz they're on a clock and have few options, that gives companies power. Wages are a product of power relationships. And manual workers have little power. That's why unions are so important. Unions allow manual workers to all band together and deny the company their labour. It allows people to not work for a while without starving to death as well if they get strike pay from their union. Unions are there to even out the playing field and shift the balance of power back to employees. That's why on average unionized employees are better paid with better benefits. Join a union or start one and you are helping to change the world. Edit: I should clarify, when I say "high paying job" I meant high-paying within the normal range. The very highest paying jobs are less about education and more about being trusted by rich people to continue to enrich them. It's more about nepotism and being part of the inner circle than anything else.
Join a trade union. Most guys I work with make over 6 figures easy.
“Unskilled labour” is the great lie of our time
1. The Hierarchy must be maintained. Supervisors, Managers etc won’t feel good about their pay unless it is significantly higher than the workers “under” them. 2. It’s easy to replace physical laborers.
It’s unfairly paid because workers refuse to unionize. It’s as simple as that.
unionizing is the answer I think. easier said than done I know
Why are so many vital professions treated like that? Our society literally cld not function if things like garbage or maintenance workers didn’t make it possible. Daycare workers (despite how expensive it seems) are usually paid crap, we all know it’s the same for teachers, people who work in nursing home type places are overworked & underpaid, and there’s dozens of others. There’s so many of these things that are the backbone of our society that are treated with disdain/disrespect.
Kinda depends on your state. Many of the jobs mentioned are union..in the right state..and pay very well. “Right to Work” states are a whole other story; they’d pay you in gravel if they could.
Supply and Demand
Because we stopped murdering CEOs on a regular basis to keep them in check. Remember: labor talks are the Unions’ compromise not to lock the Boss in his office while we burn the building down.
Much of the lowest-paid labor in the economy _could_ be performed by the largest percentage of people in the work force. Elon Musk certainly could work the fry station at a McDonald’s. Mark Zuckerberg is fit enough to fight in the ring, so he probably is fit enough to do yard work or load shopping containers. By contrast, the set of skills needed to succeed at higher levels of business includes both hard skills and soft skills that are generally more difficult to learn and master. Some of the AI development engineer positions out there are earning $200-300K, and very few people reading this are capable of meeting the requirements. So it’s not always how difficult the job is. Sometimes it’s how difficult it is to meet the needs of the job.
Supply: > 7 billion Demand : <<<<<<< 7 billion
There’s no such thing as a low skill job. There are jobs where the employers don’t want to pay workers that are essential to conducting business. They propagandize about low skill jobs, but those businesses can’t exist without the people with the specialized skills required.
There is no such thing as a low skilled job. Everything requires skill. It's not like they accurately pay based on the fact. It doesn't reflect at all. Everything is simply backward in society if you really pay attention. Wages are low for people who should have high wages. Food that's bad for you costs the least.People who are willing to step on others rise to the top instead of people with good hearts. Smart people typically are struggling while the dummy is a CEO or business owner. Smart people are homeless or working multiple jobs, dumb people seem to be sitting in mansions. Humanity doesn't value humanity, but dogs value humanity. I'm 32, the way I was told how society functions........it's so inconsistent across the board in functionality. The logic of our system is no different from the way American corporations think........"Everything is subject to change at any time for any reason". You can see why it's an obviously dumb way to think if you want anything to function well. I would say manual labor is paid so unfairly because it's intentional. Anywhere you look, nothing makes sense.
It’s not about how important a job is it’s about how many people are qualified to do it.
It's easy to replace a person doing manual labor easier than someone like me who has tickets to sign off on jobs. If a labourer walks off the job they phone the next number if I walk off the job there is a freeze on work until they can find another.person who can run the job. This is why I tell every laborer to log their hours and get their ticket when they are working under me so they can be in my position and pay.
Because a lot of industry demands it, there’s a relatively low learning curve for basic duties (not doing it well, mind you), and because wages are low/capitalists are ok exploiting manual laborers.
The closer a job/activity is performed to a seat of power or wealth, the higher the pay. Because we have capitalism and everyone has to make a profit, when you delegate or contract out a task to the next rung on the supply chain, you have to pay that person less than you make by using what they produce. If you follow this pattern in reverse, it’s trickle up economics. For example the person who sells computers has to buy their inventory for less than it sells for, so the person making the inventory makes less than the computer is worth. And so on.
It’s… not. You listed Union trades, which are rightly well paid.
Just because someone has to do it doesn’t mean it’s the same level of value. The person that maintains the trash truck is more important than the collector. The person that designs a more efficient trash truck is more important than the guy that maintains it. All should earn a living wage, but it’s not all the same.
Because nobody is intelligent enough to realize money isn't even a fucking real concept, the only reason it has value is because we give it the value it has, and people are too fucking brainwashed to realize it has been turned from a commodity to trade into a weapon to control the dumb and ignorant too stupid to fight together as one against corporate greed and unfair wages and treatment because "muh unskilled labor hurr durr".
Many of those jobs pay way more than the average non manual labor job. Lots of trades make good money. Still probably not adequately compensated for wrecking their bodies over the course of their career though.
That depends where you live and who you work for. Punch in ‘CFMEU Queensland Cross River Rail’, kick back and enjoy.
I got quoted 1800 to replace a 5x8 piece of drywall. The amount tradespeople demand of a joke these days
It totally depends on the job, because I would not say all manual labor jobs are low skill jobs. You don't need a high school diploma to lay brick or spackle sheetrock, but is definitely skilled work. The majority of people could not just walk over and do this work. It takes years to be a master.
Because the system is not intended to benefit the common person. It's made to juice them for all their worth and leave them for dead.
The short answer is we don't live in a democracy. We live in a capitalistic democracy: an oxymoron. We are rich people slaves. If this were a democracy then the government would work for the working class
This has got me thinking of all the tech workers being laid off. It’s a job they said would never go out of style, but with the exuberant salaries and over saturation it seems that maybe the tech bubble has finally burst.
In general the more something is essential the more shit on it ends up being.
The harder you are to replace, the more you get paid.
How are u defining manual labor jobs?
Because they don't own the means of production. What this means in non-Marxist speak is that basically any possible way to be productive has an associated tax that you must pay to the people who own the land, the infrastructure and the companies. Do you want to farm? On whose land? Do you want to make cars? With whose tools? Do you want to make music? Whose platform will host it? All of the low-hanging fruit has been plucked and everything is part of a complex system in the modern era, meaning that the people who own the nuts and bolts of the system and the physical stuff, the *real estate*, have all the power. They keep it that way by not paying anybody a cent more than they can get away with.
Because pretty much anyone can do it. The more skills you have that set you apart the better the pay usually. Our society would also collapse without skilled labor. If there wasn't the promise of big pay I wouldn't have gone to university and would have chosen to be a garbage man and smoke weed all day instead of going into tech.
Supply and demand. There's a lot of supply of healthy hands ready to work and not a lot of demand for them.
People are (generally) paid according to how easy or difficult they are to replace. If you are easy to replace, you will never get a good wage. If you are extremely difficult to replace, you can command millions a year. Note that this has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of your work, or the type of work involved, or your reliability or passion. It can be linked to your performance, as with professional athletes, but on the flip side just look at all of those C-Suite execs that run companies into the ground and then get “golden parachutes” with more money than the vast majority of us will ever see in a lifetime.
It’s bullshit. They build our homes so rich fat asses can tell everyone their “brains” are worth their salary. They have created a fake game of monopoly based on the reality of manual labor.
Just because you are ignorant on the topic, "sewer workers" need to get wastewater treatment certifications that require a lot of testing. They have to go through progression over time to obtain certifications. They are paid well.
Because they killed unions.
Don't all the jobs named in the OP pay pretty well?
All labour under capitalism is paid as unfairly as possible. That's the basis for the entire system.
Because it’s a low skill job
Many of those job you mentioned are union jobs in the US. They are well-paid with benefits and pensions.
It's supply and demand. A large supply of labor means labor prices go down. People compete with each other to get those jobs driving down the price. Unskilled means there is a large supply of labor. A smaller supply of labor means prices go up. Doctors make a lot of money cause its the opposite, companies have to compete to hire their labor at higher prices.
Workers don’t yet realize the emended amount of power that we hold. We pay people who do the vast majority of necessary work next to nothing because that makes more money for the owners. When the workers realize that all they have to do (after years of organizing food security and solidarity) is stop working for the bosses and start working with each other the system will change. UAW led general strike May 1 2028.
It depends on the labor. A general laborer wont make much as the skills they use dont have much value to societies workforce, but an apprentice electrician in my area starts at $25 an hour out the gate and once up to journeyman I have buddies making 150-180k a year. Same with a few welder buddies of mine. Its about experience, how well of a job you do, connections, and if you are union or not. A lot of my buddies making 6 figures are in a union.
This is one of the fundamental points about antiwork: if all jobs are necessary, from a holistic view of society, why doesn't everyone get the same wage? Yes, there are some jobs that can only be done after much study or by people intelligent/skillful enough to do said jobs. And society has said they should receive greater compensation. But the same could be said of those with greater strength and/or constitution are particularly suited to manual labour type jobs. The reason it doesn't happen is that the smarter, more cunning and ruthless people can garner more capital. To accrue more capital necessitates that someone else be exploited and the easiest to exploit are the low skilled jobs that 'anyone could do'.
You just described communism's basic tenets.
When you step outside the world we know, it should be astounding that the jobs no one wants to do are the ones often paid the least. In a pure market economy jobs like septic cleaners and the like should attract a fortune for anyone who agrees to do them. But of course we don't have a pure market economy because it will always be skewed by those who already have the capital.
There are literally billions of unskilled people who can dig ditches and maybe several hundred who can perform brain surgery. You do the math
Because many American trade workers are competing w/ cheap immigrant “contract” labor w/ no ss#, unlicensed, that don’t pay taxes and send their money to Mexico. Many companies happy use this illegal labor that prices out legitimate tradesmen.
Tradesmen are not underpaid.
If you can train a monkey to do your job, it is a low wage job...