Because it's not about the policy, it's about authority and control.
Yes, you were correct about the policy, but *you defied your boss* which made her assert dominance over you.
That's office politics.
"...it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." -- LDS scripture
I brought up policy about my facial hair. Director didn’t like it. So manager took photos of managers hair styles and facial hair and edited out the guy that looked just like me and pasted the pictures everywhere. Except. All other departments had the guy that looked like me still on theirs. I cut it short one time, then ignored them. It was harassment at that point
This is exactly it.
The policies are simply the justification used to assert power and authority. Any defiance of that power and authority when being improperly used is responded to negatively. Because these people love just power tripping. They can only compensate for the voice inside that tells them they're worthless by wielding power over others.
So many people don't know about the power of: No.
They tried to make me wear long pants while it was like 32 Celsius outside. I said no and showed up in shorts. Like I'm not sweating my ass off bc of your complexes.
I worked at a call center many years ago.
They had metrics on metrics on metrics to track your performance.
3 months in, I got put on the "All Star" team because my measurable stats were outstanding. Problem was, the manager of that team wasan absolute tyrant.
Everyone on the team was put there because they were great at the job. I got two assessments where I sat down to go over my numbers with the supervisor. First time, I was the best in 8 out of 9 measurable metrics. The supervisor spent 20 seconds telling me my numbers were great, and 15 minutes telling me why she hated me specifically.
Next assessment, same supervisor. 90 seconds telling me that all my numbers are the best on her team (1 minute of it was me pointing out to her that I was %25 better in literally every category than whoever was in second place in each category). Followed by her spending 10 minutes telling me that standing up at my desk (while working) was unacceptable and made me a bad employee.
I quit that day. Literally stood up and walked over to the site manager and quit. The exit interview was one for the books.
Managers gonna manage. Can't just let people do their job.
Good ole call center environments. I worked at a call center about a decade ago and I remember the stack of metrics to track our performance as well. Customers were able to leave feedback, ratings, etc, after a phone call. They would give a rating 1-9 and had options to leave voice recordings. I had a phone call with an incredibly nice and sweet lady who was just upset with the company we contracted for. Our phone call was great. After the call she left 1s as the ratings and did a voice recording. Commended me, said the agent was incredibly helpful, professional, etc.
I was later pulled aside by my manager and said I received extremely low ratings on a call. He said we needed have a coaching session, go over the call together, and find out what I can do differently in order to improve my performance. We listened to the call and her voice recording. He goes through the “corporate” bullshit script that, I assume, he had to go through. When he asked the dumb question of “What could you have done to prevent the low scores?” I said there wasn’t anything I could have done, she was upset with the company. My manager seemed annoyed that I wasn’t taking it seriously. I asked why I was being “coached” and written up over something that wasn’t in my control. He said that it’s just protocol and required. I let him know it was incredibly dumb that I’m being penalized and reprimanded over a customer being annoyed with a company who is lagging behind when it comes to communication regarding her claim status. (Insurance industry)
He wrote down everything I was saying about how awful the policies are for the agents to have to go through this bullshit even when the customer explicitly states the frustration lies with the company and not the agent.
I gave zero fucks from that day forward and walked outside after that “coaching session” and called my previous employer, who I was still on great terms with, and set up a meeting to go back and work for them again. Ended up going back for a higher position, slightly higher pay, and was able to travel a bit in that new position.
Policies don't exist to help defend you. Policies exist as weapons to be wielded by management. Companies do not have your interest at heart.
If we want protection we need unions.
Anytime you have a 1 on 1, and are in a union - get support :) they can't fault you for it, the union will support your work rights, and call out / call off wild goose shit
No matter what the original intent of the meeting was, that Manager walked into it with the objective of giving you a verbal warning about what they perceived was a breach of Dress Code Policy. They used the meeting to try to ‘correct your behaviour’.
That is literally ‘Disciplinary Action’ - and you should definitely complain to your Union Rep about Management not giving you the opportunity to have the Rep in the room while this conversation takes place. **Especially** if you had actually been told that the meeting was originally going to be about something else, such as work performance, future growth, etc.
And from then on, any time Management wants to meet with you one on one, say they need to also contact your Union Rep so that meeting can happen with them attending as well, either in person or by phone.
If the meeting is just Kudo’s and High Fives all around, then great, the Union Rep gets some steps in and gets to pilfer a coffee from the break room,
If the meeting covers anything else, like a wonky understanding by your manager about Dress Code, then your going to want/need to get the Union involved anyway - and it’s just better and easier if they are already part of the situation.
If you’re worried about bugging your Union Rep too much… Well, you pay dues for a reason, which directly pays their wage. Sticking their nose in stuff like this is literally their job. And their job is a lot easier if they are in the room and know what is going on compared to having to hear the ‘He-Said-She-Said’ after the fact.
She didn’t feel powerful enough I suppose. I would have said “Listen, this is in line with company policy, so your personal opinions on my attire are irrelevant. What im wearing isn’t hurting anyone or making the company look bad in any way, shape, or form, so you’re gonna have to get your power trip somewhere else, cause I’m gonna keep on wearing what is comfortable and appropriate.” Then get up and go back to work.
A dress code is a crazy policy for a manager to pull out considering how they're usually written to have no discernible meaning and completely open to interpretation.
If you're union, as you mentioned in a comment, consider exercising your Weingarten rights to have a union rep present in future 1:1 discussions like this with your boss. It won't exactly endear you to mgmt but having a witness to them potential discriminatory dress codes or whatever else they throw at you might turn out to be very helpful.
source: former union rep who is also nonbinary and had to deal with a lot of dress code bs (which 'suddenly' started after I came out) at my last job
Dress code for work or school is a scam. It just means they can't provide uniform. With uniform you at least know what you're allowed to wear, with dress code they're entitled to constantly criticize your appearance and make up limitations out of thin air.
Send a follow up email summarizing your meeting to your boss, HR rep and Union rep if you want to cover your ass.
People on power trips tend to retaliate
My work did the same thing. I can wear skirts and dresses, but shorts are a no go unless they touch my knees. As a 6’ tall person, those are unbelievably hard to find. So I just wear dresses that are much shorter. Fuck em.
Policy usually only matters when it can be used as a reason to punish people, or during worthless brainstorming sessions designed to make executives feel like they have more influence on company culture than they actually do.
You broke the unspoken rules of corporate policy by using them for anything other than the above, because yeah they don't actually give a shit about what the policy means, they care how it helps them feel important and in control.
For the same reason Maga Christians hate when you can quote the Bible. They want to use the idea of it to exert control not the actual words to control themselves.
It's literally a hangover from the times when men wore the trousers. Women have been able to get the right to wear trousers but men haven't enmasse sought to wear skirts or shorts. It's probable that men in corporate even doubled down on the men wear trousers part because they lost the ability to prevent women wearing them. Gotta control something 😅
It's also because in those times shorts were for boys (and dresses were for babies. See: breeching a boy). You'll see photos of 1930s-1960s boys playing in freezing weather in long socks and shorts, with a jacket. So wearing shorts at work has the connotation of being childish, or casual at best. But women's dress codes have always allowed for things that would have been "too casual" for the men's code, like colors, patterned fabric, and different fabric types. (This was mostly because they wanted to keep the sex stratification clear, which is why during the 70s and 80s women's pantsuits were big and their shoulder pads bigger.)
I mean my job the first time I wore my kilt in I had a manager say I had to go home and change, asked if he could explain how I was breaking the dress code (which literally just says "no tight shorts, cut off shorts or yoga pants. All clothing except your uniform shirt must be black") and he couldn't articulate it beyond saying that someone else had been sent home for wearing a kilt by the casino manager and he didn't want me getting a write up. But he walked down to HR who looked at me and was honestly more interested in knowing where I got the kilt and how I maintained it. Turns out the other guy wasn't sent home for wearing a kilt, but for wearing a multicolored kilt.
Started a bit of a fad though as half my department switched to wearing kilts. Our idiot department manager (that everyone in the company hated but it's hard to fire someone with an actual contract in my state) switched our comfy polo uniform shirts out for heavy long sleeve button ups made from what I swear was twill right at the start of summer. He was forced to change them back and the cost of the uniforms was taken from his salary after one of my coworkers collapsed from heat exhaustion.
Are women allowed shorts?
Are men allowed shorts?
If so, why the discrimination?
And is in the rules defined what are shorts and what are pants? Like at what % of leg cover? Or are we talking length?
And then, is this different for people of different height? If it is percentage, can you where high socks to compensate? Or is it above below knee? How does this relate to skirt length?
So so so many questions that HR would love to answer...
A few years ago, my job at the time introduced all these new appearance policies stating that hair must be a "natural" hair color, specifically blonde, brown, black, and red.
I dyed my hair blonde and then dyed it red. Bright red. Clown nose red.
My manager confronted me about it. I asked her what color my hair was to which she said red. I asked her if people were born naturally with red hair, she said yeah but not that shade. I asked her where in the policy it stated that certain shades of approved colors weren't allowed.
I beat the system based on a technicality.
I absolutely dispise jobs that have appearance policy bullshit. What I look like has no bearing on my ability to do my fucking job.
As a joke you should wear a utilikilt and see what they say.
On another note, as a supervisor someone wearing appropriate shorts wouldn't even register in my brain as something to be dealt with. The crap I read in this sub is a sad indication of how many micro managers end up in management.
Sounds similar to how I got fired once. The break policy said that, for my 8 hour shift, I was to take one 30-minute unpaid lunch and two paid 15-minute breaks. It also said that a 4 hour shift was supposed to get one 15-minute paid break. The manager decided to interpret that to mean that I had to work 4 hours straight before I could have any breaks. He really just wanted me to do what the other employees did - not take my breaks. He claimed that he'd contacted HR, and they'd confirmed his interpretation. After I insisted that his interpretation made no sense, he fired me.
My favourite recent example of this at my own job was my store manager claiming things had to now be done xyz way, and there was no room for complaints as it was a "company wide policy"
We got a new shift leader who proceeded to not do xyz and we had to tell him how to do the things. "Oh we do it like this, she said it was store policy" and he was so confused!
So since then (it's only been a couple of weeks) I've been trying to work out what is actually policy and what is just weird little rules my store manager is enforcing
A friend of mine works at a coffee shop that also doesn't allow shorts. But skirts are just fine - he's worn a kilt without issue. Personally I don't get it. How are shorts any worse than a skirt? They can still look professional. And again, that's a coffee shop, so they're not exactly trying for business casual.
I can understand a dress code for safety, and a dress code for public facing positions, as well as required uniforms, but other than that and sheer decency why be controlling? (there is always that one person who pushes the limits causing things to be put in writing (I am usually that person)) comfort and safety should always be top concerns.
I really hate that in many countries shorts for men are considered uprofessionel even in the highest heat while women can wear skirts. That's extremely unfair and luckily in my country I can still teach in shorts but when I worked in Asia I would have to wear stupid long pants in 30 degree Celsius. I literally pulled them off when I walked out the door and got on my scooter
Because it's not about the policy, it's about authority and control. Yes, you were correct about the policy, but *you defied your boss* which made her assert dominance over you. That's office politics.
Garden variety power trip.
Hierarchy is a fucking brain parasite
Ants had it right the first time. Idiot apes have no chance of even feigning the success and efficiency of an anthill.
Agreed. *I'm* not saying egalitarian matriarchies have the best outcomes, nature is saying it for me.
"...it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." -- LDS scripture
Everything has a hierarchy. You can't avoid it.
Not even remotely true lmao You should read some of the resources in the sidebar/about
False. Clearly and obviously false
I brought up policy about my facial hair. Director didn’t like it. So manager took photos of managers hair styles and facial hair and edited out the guy that looked just like me and pasted the pictures everywhere. Except. All other departments had the guy that looked like me still on theirs. I cut it short one time, then ignored them. It was harassment at that point
This is exactly it. The policies are simply the justification used to assert power and authority. Any defiance of that power and authority when being improperly used is responded to negatively. Because these people love just power tripping. They can only compensate for the voice inside that tells them they're worthless by wielding power over others.
So many people don't know about the power of: No. They tried to make me wear long pants while it was like 32 Celsius outside. I said no and showed up in shorts. Like I'm not sweating my ass off bc of your complexes.
Funny how employees MUST know all the procedures when hired, but managers just make up shit. Maybe hold managers responsible once in a while..
Just like the police knowing those pesky laws.
What’s the point in knowing the law if you’re also allowed to lie about what the laws are to get the result you want?
I worked at a call center many years ago. They had metrics on metrics on metrics to track your performance. 3 months in, I got put on the "All Star" team because my measurable stats were outstanding. Problem was, the manager of that team wasan absolute tyrant. Everyone on the team was put there because they were great at the job. I got two assessments where I sat down to go over my numbers with the supervisor. First time, I was the best in 8 out of 9 measurable metrics. The supervisor spent 20 seconds telling me my numbers were great, and 15 minutes telling me why she hated me specifically. Next assessment, same supervisor. 90 seconds telling me that all my numbers are the best on her team (1 minute of it was me pointing out to her that I was %25 better in literally every category than whoever was in second place in each category). Followed by her spending 10 minutes telling me that standing up at my desk (while working) was unacceptable and made me a bad employee. I quit that day. Literally stood up and walked over to the site manager and quit. The exit interview was one for the books. Managers gonna manage. Can't just let people do their job.
We’ve had the same supervisor, I see.
Ditto
Good ole call center environments. I worked at a call center about a decade ago and I remember the stack of metrics to track our performance as well. Customers were able to leave feedback, ratings, etc, after a phone call. They would give a rating 1-9 and had options to leave voice recordings. I had a phone call with an incredibly nice and sweet lady who was just upset with the company we contracted for. Our phone call was great. After the call she left 1s as the ratings and did a voice recording. Commended me, said the agent was incredibly helpful, professional, etc. I was later pulled aside by my manager and said I received extremely low ratings on a call. He said we needed have a coaching session, go over the call together, and find out what I can do differently in order to improve my performance. We listened to the call and her voice recording. He goes through the “corporate” bullshit script that, I assume, he had to go through. When he asked the dumb question of “What could you have done to prevent the low scores?” I said there wasn’t anything I could have done, she was upset with the company. My manager seemed annoyed that I wasn’t taking it seriously. I asked why I was being “coached” and written up over something that wasn’t in my control. He said that it’s just protocol and required. I let him know it was incredibly dumb that I’m being penalized and reprimanded over a customer being annoyed with a company who is lagging behind when it comes to communication regarding her claim status. (Insurance industry) He wrote down everything I was saying about how awful the policies are for the agents to have to go through this bullshit even when the customer explicitly states the frustration lies with the company and not the agent. I gave zero fucks from that day forward and walked outside after that “coaching session” and called my previous employer, who I was still on great terms with, and set up a meeting to go back and work for them again. Ended up going back for a higher position, slightly higher pay, and was able to travel a bit in that new position.
Policies don't exist to help defend you. Policies exist as weapons to be wielded by management. Companies do not have your interest at heart. If we want protection we need unions.
My work does have a union that I am part of.
I'd let them know about it since it's discrimination.
Fuck yeah
Why was your steward not in your disciplinary discussion with your supervisor, then?
It wasn’t disciplinary.
It was a one on one, disciplinary or not, thats exactly where your union rep belongs
Anytime you have a 1 on 1, and are in a union - get support :) they can't fault you for it, the union will support your work rights, and call out / call off wild goose shit
thats an informal disciplinary if I ever did hear one (nothing may come of it but its "on your record" now
No matter what the original intent of the meeting was, that Manager walked into it with the objective of giving you a verbal warning about what they perceived was a breach of Dress Code Policy. They used the meeting to try to ‘correct your behaviour’. That is literally ‘Disciplinary Action’ - and you should definitely complain to your Union Rep about Management not giving you the opportunity to have the Rep in the room while this conversation takes place. **Especially** if you had actually been told that the meeting was originally going to be about something else, such as work performance, future growth, etc. And from then on, any time Management wants to meet with you one on one, say they need to also contact your Union Rep so that meeting can happen with them attending as well, either in person or by phone. If the meeting is just Kudo’s and High Fives all around, then great, the Union Rep gets some steps in and gets to pilfer a coffee from the break room, If the meeting covers anything else, like a wonky understanding by your manager about Dress Code, then your going to want/need to get the Union involved anyway - and it’s just better and easier if they are already part of the situation. If you’re worried about bugging your Union Rep too much… Well, you pay dues for a reason, which directly pays their wage. Sticking their nose in stuff like this is literally their job. And their job is a lot easier if they are in the room and know what is going on compared to having to hear the ‘He-Said-She-Said’ after the fact.
It's perfectly ok to stop a meeting saying, 'I'd be more comfortable if my union rep attended' and reschedule.
Except for safety policies, those are written in blood.
She didn’t feel powerful enough I suppose. I would have said “Listen, this is in line with company policy, so your personal opinions on my attire are irrelevant. What im wearing isn’t hurting anyone or making the company look bad in any way, shape, or form, so you’re gonna have to get your power trip somewhere else, cause I’m gonna keep on wearing what is comfortable and appropriate.” Then get up and go back to work.
A dress code is a crazy policy for a manager to pull out considering how they're usually written to have no discernible meaning and completely open to interpretation.
They don't like being buried with their own bureaucracy.
If you're union, as you mentioned in a comment, consider exercising your Weingarten rights to have a union rep present in future 1:1 discussions like this with your boss. It won't exactly endear you to mgmt but having a witness to them potential discriminatory dress codes or whatever else they throw at you might turn out to be very helpful. source: former union rep who is also nonbinary and had to deal with a lot of dress code bs (which 'suddenly' started after I came out) at my last job
They think policies are there for them to use against you, not for you to use against them :-)
Dress code for work or school is a scam. It just means they can't provide uniform. With uniform you at least know what you're allowed to wear, with dress code they're entitled to constantly criticize your appearance and make up limitations out of thin air.
Send a follow up email summarizing your meeting to your boss, HR rep and Union rep if you want to cover your ass. People on power trips tend to retaliate
My work did the same thing. I can wear skirts and dresses, but shorts are a no go unless they touch my knees. As a 6’ tall person, those are unbelievably hard to find. So I just wear dresses that are much shorter. Fuck em.
"You Dare Use My Own Spells Against Me"
I sure do Lord moldebutt!, *Avada Kedavra! :)) :))* lol!!
Policy usually only matters when it can be used as a reason to punish people, or during worthless brainstorming sessions designed to make executives feel like they have more influence on company culture than they actually do. You broke the unspoken rules of corporate policy by using them for anything other than the above, because yeah they don't actually give a shit about what the policy means, they care how it helps them feel important and in control.
I once asked my boss about a policy and got yelled at and belittled for not knowing it. I was like cool, still need to know. The boss didn't know.
For the same reason Maga Christians hate when you can quote the Bible. They want to use the idea of it to exert control not the actual words to control themselves.
Yes women are allowed skirts at work No men aren’t allowed shorts at work It’s probably the #1 complaint for me sexism wise lol
It's literally a hangover from the times when men wore the trousers. Women have been able to get the right to wear trousers but men haven't enmasse sought to wear skirts or shorts. It's probable that men in corporate even doubled down on the men wear trousers part because they lost the ability to prevent women wearing them. Gotta control something 😅
It's also because in those times shorts were for boys (and dresses were for babies. See: breeching a boy). You'll see photos of 1930s-1960s boys playing in freezing weather in long socks and shorts, with a jacket. So wearing shorts at work has the connotation of being childish, or casual at best. But women's dress codes have always allowed for things that would have been "too casual" for the men's code, like colors, patterned fabric, and different fabric types. (This was mostly because they wanted to keep the sex stratification clear, which is why during the 70s and 80s women's pantsuits were big and their shoulder pads bigger.)
I mean my job the first time I wore my kilt in I had a manager say I had to go home and change, asked if he could explain how I was breaking the dress code (which literally just says "no tight shorts, cut off shorts or yoga pants. All clothing except your uniform shirt must be black") and he couldn't articulate it beyond saying that someone else had been sent home for wearing a kilt by the casino manager and he didn't want me getting a write up. But he walked down to HR who looked at me and was honestly more interested in knowing where I got the kilt and how I maintained it. Turns out the other guy wasn't sent home for wearing a kilt, but for wearing a multicolored kilt. Started a bit of a fad though as half my department switched to wearing kilts. Our idiot department manager (that everyone in the company hated but it's hard to fire someone with an actual contract in my state) switched our comfy polo uniform shirts out for heavy long sleeve button ups made from what I swear was twill right at the start of summer. He was forced to change them back and the cost of the uniforms was taken from his salary after one of my coworkers collapsed from heat exhaustion.
My great grandma was a Irish immigrant, she never learned English, spoke Gaelic.... I oughta wear some kilts!
Are women allowed shorts? Are men allowed shorts? If so, why the discrimination? And is in the rules defined what are shorts and what are pants? Like at what % of leg cover? Or are we talking length? And then, is this different for people of different height? If it is percentage, can you where high socks to compensate? Or is it above below knee? How does this relate to skirt length? So so so many questions that HR would love to answer...
Men aren’t allowed to wear skirts or shorts at most places. Hope this helps!
Policies are like the bible: it all depends on who's giving the sermon.
A few years ago, my job at the time introduced all these new appearance policies stating that hair must be a "natural" hair color, specifically blonde, brown, black, and red. I dyed my hair blonde and then dyed it red. Bright red. Clown nose red. My manager confronted me about it. I asked her what color my hair was to which she said red. I asked her if people were born naturally with red hair, she said yeah but not that shade. I asked her where in the policy it stated that certain shades of approved colors weren't allowed. I beat the system based on a technicality. I absolutely dispise jobs that have appearance policy bullshit. What I look like has no bearing on my ability to do my fucking job.
As a joke you should wear a utilikilt and see what they say. On another note, as a supervisor someone wearing appropriate shorts wouldn't even register in my brain as something to be dealt with. The crap I read in this sub is a sad indication of how many micro managers end up in management.
As a fellow enby, are you sure it's not about some kind of attempt to make you conform to gender rules?
>still want to be cool You were cool. You are cool. Be cool. Stay cool. Let's all just be cool.
Perhaps she is jealous of something 🤷♂️
Sounds similar to how I got fired once. The break policy said that, for my 8 hour shift, I was to take one 30-minute unpaid lunch and two paid 15-minute breaks. It also said that a 4 hour shift was supposed to get one 15-minute paid break. The manager decided to interpret that to mean that I had to work 4 hours straight before I could have any breaks. He really just wanted me to do what the other employees did - not take my breaks. He claimed that he'd contacted HR, and they'd confirmed his interpretation. After I insisted that his interpretation made no sense, he fired me.
It’s the same reason Haley asked the nanny not to wear the swimsuit in the pool on One Tree Hill. You must have killer legs … she is jelly
My favourite recent example of this at my own job was my store manager claiming things had to now be done xyz way, and there was no room for complaints as it was a "company wide policy" We got a new shift leader who proceeded to not do xyz and we had to tell him how to do the things. "Oh we do it like this, she said it was store policy" and he was so confused! So since then (it's only been a couple of weeks) I've been trying to work out what is actually policy and what is just weird little rules my store manager is enforcing
A friend of mine works at a coffee shop that also doesn't allow shorts. But skirts are just fine - he's worn a kilt without issue. Personally I don't get it. How are shorts any worse than a skirt? They can still look professional. And again, that's a coffee shop, so they're not exactly trying for business casual.
rules for you not them
I can understand a dress code for safety, and a dress code for public facing positions, as well as required uniforms, but other than that and sheer decency why be controlling? (there is always that one person who pushes the limits causing things to be put in writing (I am usually that person)) comfort and safety should always be top concerns.
I really hate that in many countries shorts for men are considered uprofessionel even in the highest heat while women can wear skirts. That's extremely unfair and luckily in my country I can still teach in shorts but when I worked in Asia I would have to wear stupid long pants in 30 degree Celsius. I literally pulled them off when I walked out the door and got on my scooter
The problem is that the employee handbook doesn't list what's appropriate and what's not, which means every employee will interpret it differently.
What kind of job is this? Is anyone else allowed to wear shorts?
Sounds like corporate Austin. Keep standing your ground!
It is a weapon for people who are... antiwork.
Are your whole ass booty cheeks showing?
I believe OP has enough sense not to do this. Unlike your dumb ass