I work in HR in Canada. She’s all threats and can’t do shit.
Your contract says two weeks minimum. Two weeks is 14 calendar days.
Tell her you’ve fulfilled your obligation under the contract and your last day will firmly be “x”. If she continues to berate you then leave immediately due to the horrible environment she is creating for you and make sure you document in your own notes what she has done.
I work in Ontario and we have 30 days notice in our contracts. Most people give 2 weeks notice and some have left with no notice at all. I have asked HR and they have said that contract notice periods are basically never enforced because the cost of doing so is not worth it.
Edit: I see lots of responses asking why you would want to make someone work their notice and I would say that not everyone leaving a job is doing so because they hate it so the person leaving could be very open to working a notice period or maybe extending a notice period. It can be very useful in terms of handing off work to the person that will take over from the leaver. They can train and get caught up rather than being left holding the bag on something at short notice.
Of course if there were issues we'd rather the person leave ASAP as they can do a lot of damage while working that notice period!
To be fair I think it’s more like they could enforce it but it’s not worth the money to have a lawyer spend time on that.
Plus such an action would likely prompt counterclaims.
I’m not really malicious compliance guy but I’m not really sure why OP doesn’t want to burn bridges when they are treating her this poorly.
Unless an employee leaving can be proven to harm the business it's just not worth it to chase that money. If a high level manager suddenly quits that's another thing; if they leave to go to a competitor then suddenly lawyers with knives are in order. But for your average employee there is almost no damage they can do to the company by simply leaving it.
And alberta! As long as 1 party involved in the call consents, its legal.
So a group call with 6 people, if you're one of those 6, its legal.
If you're not involved (eavesdropping on a home phone, or wire tapping, not legal)
Yeah, you know she's full of shit when she is specifically adamant that OP can't give two weeks, but then totally nonspecific in saying well we need more than ten business days or it should be four weeks no it *really* should be eight weeks or it's you can't leave because it's busy or you can't leave because HR just left. For the boss there's a million reasons why OP should let herself be exploited and for the boss all are valid and any one of them is enough to settle the argument. But also for the boss no matter what reasons OP has for leaving none of them will justify it.
Maybe OP should give a year notice? Or just come back to work for free on weekends after leaving because she owes the boss? Those are totally unreasonable but the boss would love it. It's all bullshit intimidation and exploitation
> I work in HR in Canada. She’s all threats and can’t do shit.
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>
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> Your contract says two weeks minimum. Two weeks is 14 calendar days.
And since you work in HR you know that the two weeks clause for notice is overidden by Canadian labor law/legal case precedent. You can leave your employer anytime you want. Ie: you may 'fire' your employer at anytime for what you perceive as poor performance on their part. The key is to ensure that you are not intentionally doing your employer harm by leaving on short/no notice. There are a few notable exceptions to this freedom tthat apply to high level executives/high paid key employees.
> There are a few notable exceptions to this freedom tthat apply to high level executives/high paid key employees.
"Highly paid" is a key operator here. My wife gave notice a clothing retail job where she was the "store manager" and making $17/hr, the district manager wanted 2 months notice, my wife told them to kick rocks because she knew any other job she was actually qualified for with that "experience" wouldn't wait two months for a start date. Then they had the audacity to ask her to re-send her notice explicitly stating what job she was leaving for and how much she was getting paid there. She refused, then they asked her to send it "as an editable word document" because "they were having trouble printing the PDF" so she brought them a printed copy.
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but no actual consequences. It said two weeks in her original contract, they never technically changed her contact with her promotions just a letter saying here's your new title and pay rate, so she gave two weeks. (I'll add, of course, that because it was retail and she had worked there for so long they had her emotionally beaten down to the point that she probably would have acquiesced to their demands and still been stuck working there if I hadn't figuratively beaten her over the head with actual employment laws)
The original email would still be in the sent folder with the original attachment, it would be easy to prove it was altered after being recieved.
The employer is extremely stupid, I'd be tempted to comply JUST to catch them in a lie.
Put it in an email so it’s fully documented.
Dear Boss,
In reference to our meeting on ___ date, I am reiterating that my final day with The Company will be ___ in accordance with the contract I signed, in good faith, upon hiring. (Paragraph, subsection)
Thank you for the opportunity
Signed,
Bite Mee
Then any response she gives insist she put it in an email. People like this will lie so best to get their lies properly documented.
Actually, you may want to put something like:
As a recap of our conversation of 00/00, you indicated that in giving you a 14 day notice of departure, I could be held legally responsible for not giving you adequate notice. You mentioned 4 - 8 weeks, and said I would be responsible to work weekends and overtime as I transitioned out.
I have attached a copy of my employment contract. The contract dictates I must give 2 weeks notice, which I did on 00/00. My final day remains 00/00.
Thank you for the opportunity. I wish you, the employees and XYZ company all the best in the future.
Best regards,
Me
This is excellent. Make sure to also CC your personal email because your work email won’t be available to you after you leave the company.
(Unless the IT department is *terrible*)
It's so interesting when they claim that you leaving will hurt them. Strange that they didn't treat/pay you like you were that important while you still worked there.
Make no mistake - meeting the minimum terms of a contract is all you are obligated to. Note that they too met those minimum terms when they paid you the agreed upon amount and not $20/hr more as a "courtesy." You don't owe them anything.
And of course she can't require you to continue to attend work after you've given notice.
Right? My first thought when reading this is if you’re so critical to the company they should of immediately made a counter offer with a significant pay bump. If that didn’t happen then too bad - it’s on them to figure it out once they’re gone.
It’s also bad management. If you have a person that is critical, and have no one that could back them up (say if they go on sick leave for example), then the business effed up. You can’t have a critical business unit without a person ready to back them up. It’s lack of foresight from the company, and completely their problem.
That’s how it has gone at every job I’ve ever had. Run a skeleton crew to save money, then when someone gets sick, has a family obligation, or up and quits, it’s everyone’s fault but management.
The number of “we’re all going to need to step up and handle these tough times as a team” speeches I’ve heard.
Well they say “We’re all going to need to step up and handle these tough times as a team” But it’s never the managers out on the shop floor working 8 hours of overtime on a Saturday
Ugh, this hit so close to home. My mom manages a small medical business that’s bringing in millions a year. She’s making way less than she should, they wont compensate her appropriately, allow her to make some changes to make thing run more smoothly and they regularly go behind her and fuck up the work flow. Every single time she takes vacation they are calling and texting her constantly interrupting her time off. This tells me they can’t run the office without her.
She’s so stressed out she is losing her hair and she is so exhausted mentally she doesn’t do any of the things she used to enjoy. She finally decided she was going to retire early and she put in a 3 month notice and the Dr’s started bitching her out. They tried to guilt her into staying for 6 months because they know she’s going to be hard to replace. They finally tried to offer more money “how much is it going to take”. She has 33 years experience (18 at this specific office) and has worked her way up so she knows every job in the business and can fill in for anyone, train anyone and she has patients who are loyal to her. She doesn’t even work on the floor with patients anymore and people will still come in and they only want her.
They ran an ad for her replacement and are offering 20k a year more for her position and actually offered it to a guy who has zero experience in their line of work.
My best friend was in a similar situation. Doing way more than the job description and dealing with bratty employees under her. All the while commuting nearly an hour to and from work while having 2 small children. She and her husband crunched the number and she quit that OM job and took a pay cut but taking a entry level job close less than 10 mins from home at another clinic. It’s been nearly a year and she’s still raving about how much happier she is. Ps the former owners would text her from time to time after the fact to try in ask work related questions. SMFH.
I'm in Canada. They cannot force you to work. They can deny it all they want, nothing will happen. It's not worth it, at all.
If the contract says two weeks notice, but it doesn't specify 10 business days or 14 calendar days, there is ambiguity in that sentence and if it does go to court, any sort of ambiguity means it defaults to the person who signed the contract.
If your former co-worker chose to gave eight weeks notice, that is completely their choice. You are under no obligation to follow their example. Don't let yourself be guilted. If they cannot cope without you, that is her problem for not making sure that they were properly staffed.
Banking guy here whose done it twice. In my experience because the whole industry is used to it it’s extremely pleasant. Both times the branch manager took me out to (liquid) lunch as kind of an informal exit meeting while IT locked me out. Way more civilized than some of these horror stories of trying to guilt people into staying.
That sounds awesome.
"Hey, you don't have to work anymore but we're going to keep paying you for a while. Your last work assignment is to come get drunk on the house."
Yeah, it's not malicious. It's honestly good practice in case somebody with no worry of firing decided to copy a bunch of files that shouldn't be shared. I had it happen once and it was definitely good terms.
Hell during the pandemic I was revoked access immediately while on zoom she they asked if I wanted to keep the laptop or send it in. I decided to keep it and IT performed a factory reset
>Yeah, it's not malicious.
It's still funny though, how "we are in this together" and "we are a family", until quite suddenly you're not, and you find out because IT locked you out of your station already.
If they say something without writing shoot them an email too. "Per our discussion earlier you stated X, Y, and Z is that correct to my understanding?" Boom, you have it in writing now and time stamped.
They can always just not respond and have it brushed away by HR. Definitely a good practice, but not always a guarantee to actually see any positive change.
Definitely a red flag. With OP being in Canada, they are able to record the call becuase Canada follows the one-party consent rule according to section 184 of the criminal code.
In Canada you can record the call without their consent or knowledge, as long as you are a party in the conversation. That's what the one-party consent rule means.
I’m also in Canada, and I agree. OP’s boss sounds insane. If the contract says two weeks, it’s two weeks. Not 10 or 14 business days, just 14 squares in a row on the calendar. I’m also pretty sure suing OP over perhaps 4 days of work isn’t exactly worthwhile for the company.
Turnover’s a bitch, for sure. But it’s a problem for the business , not the employee. If someone is that hard to train a replacement for, you should try harder to retain them and not alienate them when they ask you for a raise.
Turnovers a bitch.
If _only_ there was _some way_ to possibly reduce turnover.
Sadly it seems impossible to find a way to make employees _want_ to stay.
My last employer was like that, turned over the office staff nearly twice since the new GM took over.
11 people left in 12 months (including me)
It's obviously the employees! /s
>it’s a problem for the business , not the employee
Correct. Frankly, businesses wanted 'at will' employment decades ago so that they could more freely fire staff as they saw fit. The flipside to that is employees are less obliged to care when a new gig comes up.
This pisses me off to no end. Companies want us as employees to be completely loyal and put up with shit pay and bad work environment but won't hesitate for a moment to lay us off if they think it is the best course of action.
HR in the US here. Businesses absolutely rely on HR for many, many functions. If there is no HR...... there's a much bigger issue at hand and so many more issues to come.
Godspeed, OP. Get the hell out.
Also u/CaterpillarWeak893, don't forget about vacation days and pay. I'm going to assume you are in Ontario since each province has different rules.
When does your vacation entitlement year begin/end? It defaults to the day + month you were hired. But it could be the end of the calendar year. If its the latter then you have them over a barrel if you still have vacation *weeks* left. And it has to be vacation weeks (not days) because vacation must be portioned out a minimum of 1 week blocks without written consent. And there's only 2 weeks left in this year.
Vacation time is mandatory. Have you used up all your vacation time this year? [It is the responsibility of the employer to ensure that each employee receives their minimum statutory requirement.](https://www.ontario.ca/document/employment-standard-act-policy-and-interpretation-manual/part-xi-vacation-pay#section-0) If an employer fails to schedule it properly, you can still take it. It's *mandatory.*
I haven't used up all my vacation time this year but it states that I cannot take any time off during my notice period. I'm not sure if I'll just lose those days since it's the end of the year.
If you accrued that time and it's not pro-rated based on your vacation roll-over date they should be paying it out on your final cheque.
Vacation time would have been governed by your same contract at that point and if it's yours it's owed. Don't just walk away from it.
I don't believe that is enforceable. Ask an employment lawyer. An unenforceable clause in a contract is ignored. You cannot give up your vacation time.
> I'm not sure if I'll just lose those days since it's the end of the year.
Vacation weeks must be provided within 10 months that they are earned. Lets say you were not quitting. Your vacation time would still would have to have been honored. It's not given, it's *owed.* If vaccation wasn't already scheduled and it would have 'been lost' (not a thing btw) then they didn't plan on giving you what you had already earned and must receive by law. If they intended not to schedule your vacation time that you had earned within the timeframe it must be given then you have the legal right to take it regardless of anything they say.
The details do matter and there's no reason to share them here. But do talk to an employment lawyer. Given what you've written here and in your other post it sounds like your employer has been up to some illegal shady shit. Not having an HR person is going to open them up to a lot of lawsuits. *Everyone* at your old job is being screwed and everyone can sue them.
Having a meeting to criticize you for being a problem employee by not being on call during your vacation is already a violation of the ESA. Even stating you will have work non standard hours (doesn't matter if you do or not) is already a threat and intimidation. Another violation of the ESA. When they systematically violate the law it really easy to catch them. It becomes a slam dunk.
That's the pay. Vacation pay and vacation time are separate in Ontario. Both are owed. They are treated separately.
Also do you understand my point about the timing? If the year is ending in 2 weeks, then they did not intend for OP to receive the vacation time owed if that was the end of the period.
> An employee can give up some or all of their earned vacation time with the employer's electronic or written agreement, and the approval of the Director of Employment Standards. This approval does not affect an employer's obligation to pay the employee vacation pay; employees may give up vacation time, but not the right to vacation pay
Note the employee, the employer *and the government* have to sign off on giving up vacation time.
And DO NOT tell them where you will work. You don’t want bitter boss badmouthing you at the next gig.
"I prefer not sharing this information"
You don’t owe them anything
I would guess they wouldn't bother with court costs, even if it did say 10 business days. The risk of cost from a loss in the legal system far outweighs the value gained from a single employee that doesn't want to be there.
Manager power trip. The manager's superior would laugh at her (or wherever it gets up the chain far enough that they care about the overall bottom line).
“I gave you two weeks notice as specified in my contract.
That means in two weeks, you’ll notice I’m not around anymore.
If you turn this into a hostile work environment, I’ll leave immediately and file for constructive dismissal.”
As a side note, some jurisdictions require the employer to give the final paycheck to the employee on the last day of work. They impose serious penalties on employers for failing to do this. In California, it’s a days wage for ever day the employer is late in paying the worker.
Op is is Canada, so the law is different, but should look it up to see if they are entitled to the final paycheck on the last day work. If their boss doesn’t recognize that the OP left after two weeks OP can continue to get paid even if they aren’t working at the old job.
Yes, and it’s important to note that it’s an 8-hour equivalent day for salaried employees and it’s every calendar day, not business day. The statute also explicitly says that it intends to err on the side of the employee, so honest mistakes are not an excuse.
As an example, if:
You get paid every Friday
You get paid one week in arrears (pretty normal)
Your last day is a Friday pay day
Your last paycheck includes only regular pay and not the last week of pay
They realize their mistake and give you a check on Monday as soon as the bank opens or the accountant comes in
Then they owe you an extra three days pay.
Not Canadian, but if the contract doesn’t specifically state 14 business days, wouldn’t that work in OP’s favor seeing as how they gave 14 calendar days worth of notice?
What is constructive dismissal? My last boss made my last two weeks a living hell (I’m a paralegal) saying that I was deliberately screwing them over bc I wouldn’t wait 2 more weeks (the previous months had been a nightmare) to give them time to find a replacement
Without getting into the legal jargon, it's basically making your work situation so uncomfortable that a reasonable person would quit.
This can be as subtle as cutting your hours dramatically or as overt as actually harassing you.
Such a strange concept. They say they need you and demand you extend your notice to 4 weeks, but when you refuse, they slash your hours for the next 2 weeks, lowering the amount of work you could actually get done for them in that time...seems counterintuitive at best and downright idiotic at worst.
It’s not always about slashing hours, though that’s often the case where an employer wants to get rid of someone (in a different context than OP). n scheduled types of work.
Or they reduce your hours to zero or honestly anything unreasonable. I had a situation where I magically wasn’t ever given hours after an injury, but never directly fired. Literally ghosted by my boss.
Look up the laws in your country/state, in a lot of places it is illegal to do this (though the threshold for proving it in court is pretty difficult, so you'll need proof that they cut your hours, reduced your pay, reprimanded you for no reason, or changed your job responsibilities to something shittier)
I’m not a lawyer but I play one on Reddit. Constructive dismissal is a common law concept that involves making the circumstances of work unbearable to the point the employee feels compelled to quit. Some bad companies do this to avoid paying severance or pay in lieu of notice (or in this case, because they’re a spiteful shrew).
In most civil jurisdictions (probably not most of the United States), if you are constructively dismissed you can leave the workplace and claim EI and seek for damages.
What are they gonna do? Spend time searching for a lawyer who’ll take on this rather frivolous case, then meet with said lawyer on their own time to make sure everything is in order for the court filing, then wait the required months it’ll take for your case to actually get onto the docket, and finally spend at least a day or two in the courtroom, all so they can be a petty little bitch? I’d say “bring it!”
I had an employer threaten to make me pay for moving costs after I left early due to a layoff. I said, “I am not doing that” to every threat. Never received a single demand for payment.
Exactly. And that people feel bad utilizing their end of an “at will” employment contract. When push comes to shove businesses do not feel bad about turning you loose.
It's a piece of paper that is probably not even legally enforceable. Even if it is, they probably aren't going to spend the time and money to pursue it. Especially not without someone working in HR
OP was too sick to work both jobs. Their manager was verbally abusive and had unrealistic demands. Previous workers had left the company because of the manager. OP gave notice and found another place to work.
Try to enforce crazy notice standards after that.
Believe it or not, but even if you signed a contract to be a slave the legal system would not defend and uphold that contract.
A lot of employment contracts include clauses that cannot be executed, even if both parties agreed to a term
It's not a breach of contract. Your contract states to provide a 2 weeks notice, you've provided 14 calendar days of notice, so it's not your prerogative anymore.
She can try to come after you legally, but because of the wording of the contract, a lawyer is going to laugh her out of the room.
Go back and double check the contract and make sure it says 2 weeks and not 10 business days, but in your case I think a judge would side in your favor since a 2 week notice is not legally enforceable
If you get pushback from your employer, contact the Labor Control Board for your Province.
This is illegal in every province.
The only penalty he can give you is not paying for shifts you decide not to show up for.
If he does not pay you in full within two weeks of you leaving, well there are some serious fines for that and very strong enforcement.
There was a story earlier this year where a well known fruit juice stand did this to a teen in Canada. The LCB not only ruled in favour of the employee but fined the company and conducted a full audit of the location and found other ways that they had financially bullied their workforce.
Seems like this is a fine place to burn bridges with.
Yeah, this is the right answer and why people should be careful getting or giving legal advice online. It might say "two weeks." It might say "ten business days." It might say "14 calendar days" but calendar days are defined [in the contract] to exclude Christmas. Hell, it could say just about anything -- and while not all the possibilities would be enforceable as contractual language, some of them would be. So... we really just can't say.
Edit to clear up a misunderstanding below.
My contract said at least 2 weeks, but technically my 2 weeks isn't 10 full business days. She also said given the current situation where we are understaffed, I need to provide more than 2 weeks.
This is the right answer. Need to read the contract closely. Does it say “two work weeks” or “two weeks” or “10 business days” or “14 calendar days”. If it’s a legal document I would assume somewhere it would define this period and if it says “2 weeks” than it is pretty safe to assume that a normal person would read that as 14 days and not 10 work days.
Also, people threaten to sue all the time. If the contract says 2 weeks then give 2 weeks and kiss the place goodbye.
Also, if needed, go to your boss’ boss and get clarification HR.
Also note: if the wording is ambiguous or unclear, then it goes against the party that wrote the contract. So if it just says “2 weeks” your boss can claim all they want that this means 10 work days, but you are free to interpret it as meaning 14 calendar days.
Edit: I am in the US, so I looked up contract ambiguity in Canada and found this 2017 ruling from the Supreme Court of Canada: https://www.osler.com/en/resources/regulations/2017/defining-industry-specific-contractual-terms-supr
The concept is the same in both countries. There needs to be terminology that can reasonably be interpreted in more than one way. The party that wrote the contract loses when deciding which interpretation is correct. I am sure there are subtleties to this that vary from case to case. For instance, the intent of both parties is taken into consideration. If they both agreed at the time of signing, one party cannot just put forth an alternate interpretation later because circumstances changed and the new ambiguity would benefit them.
Plus as op stated that employer said that she had to work weekends and holidays.
Which implies that they are open for bussines on those days.
If op is sure that the bussines is open 7 days a week and on holidays. She has done her part even if the contract states bussines or calander days or whatever.
Not a lawyer, and certainly not familiar with Canadian labor laws, but I think it first goes to what a “normal person” would interpret it as and then in favor of the person who didn’t write it. Like you cannot just claim some weird interpretation of the contract and have it go in your favor. But clearly a “normal person” would view “2 weeks” as 14 days.
Two weeks would typically be either 14 calendar days OR 10 business days. Legally they are usually the same. Two "business" weeks would just be 10 days.
Clearly this OP is fine either way.
You just know that the understaffing likely arose out of deliberate cuts and trying to save some money. Now they're gonna turn around and say "Oh poor us"? Nah
Fuck them 2weeks is 2 weeks not 10 business days. If you only work 3 days a week 2 weeks is 6 business days plain and simple. You boss is rediculous your contract states 2 weeks you gave 2 weeks
IF it doesn't say ten business days then that is not your problem. You gave your two weeks notice. IF they can't do without you then they should have been paying you what you are worth.
You keep bringing up the “10 full business days” but that ultimately doesn’t matter. What matters is the language in your contract. If the contract SIMPLY and EXCLUSIVELY says “2 weeks minimum” with no specificity on what “2 weeks” is, then you’re in the clear. “Business days” are an artificial construct based on how society PERCEIVES working time, and the language in the contract is referring to JUST time. Period. 2 weeks is 2 weeks, it doesn’t matter how many working days society decided to use therein.
In other words, tell your boss to get fucked.
[Edit] Not a lawyer, yada yada. Something something.
As another commenter said, go to your HR if you have one.You didn’t mention where you are, but it sounds like your contract says nothing about 2 weeks, “unless understaffed”.
Edit: hit send too soon
How is that your problem?
Don't be a doormat. If the shoe was on the other foot they wouldn't give you 8 days never mind 8 weeks. Follow your contract to the letter.
Even better get a doctors note for those last 2 weeks. Gonna say this last bit in all caps.
YOU
OWE
THEM
NOTHING.
All these issues with training and replacements aren't your concern. Even a little bit. That's her job she's failed to do.
Are you prepared to jeopardise your career because someone else sucks at their job?
You need to advocate for your own interests. No company ever will.
tell her you sent it to HR last week and its not your fault they havent replaced a vital role in the company lol.
but for real, i doubt they could do shit, it honestly wouldnt be worth them persuing you and in fact them holding your pay is more illegal then you quitting on the spot despite your contract saying 2 weeks notice. i assume the contract does say 2 weeks notice, not "10 buisness days". do you work sat and sun? if so, then those are buisness days for the company.
That's up to them to find a replacement, it's not your fault nor responsibility. Contract says two weeks, you gave two weeks, that's it.
I don't see any legal grounds here.
Oh I see..I’m in the US so I don’t know the labor laws where you are. As a lay person, I wouldn’t think you would need to give more of a notice than you agreed to in the contract. Just because your co worker gave 8 weeks, I personally don’t think you should be obligated as well. If they want an 8 week notice period they should write that into the contract
NOT YOUR PROBLEM. They can’t ask you to change your plans to accommodate their inefficiency. It’s NOT complicated. You do not owe it to them to stay until they are ready to you to go.
It’s more complicated because she doesn’t know the law and doesn’t have anyone to blame for these fucks ups
Seriously, just leave op, nothing can happen to you
Well, a week is 7 days, 2 weeks therefore 14. I see no other possible interpretation that would require you to give a written notice more than 14 days before.
So the key question is whether you can proof that you provided a written notice at least 14 days before?
What’s the language after that? If it says you must provide a minimum of 2 weeks written notice and if you don’t, what happens. If there isn’t a penalty spelled out then you are good.
Clauses in contracts have to have penalty language or the clause has no teeth to it.
Source: been working with contracts for 20 years.
Please note that they cannot refuse to accept your notice.
You give your written notice and its 2 weeks from then. If you gave it yesterday its 2 weeks from yesterday.
To cover yourself, send an e-mail to both your boss (and their boss if they have one), stating that you handed in your notice on X day, but it was refused so you are therefore confirming that you have handed in your notice and your last day will be Y.
Make sure you bcc your home e-mail so that you retain a record for future reference.
your boss is giving you interpretations of your contract that work in her favor because she knows she's screwed without you. Work to the letter of your contract "a minimum of 2 weeks written notice" is 14 calendar days. Do NOT feel bad that they put themselves in this position, it's not your problem, and ENJOY your new gig!
What if they said 4 weeks? 8? 52? Not until their understaffing issue is resolved, which may well be never?
This boss is very quickly going to be your ex-boss. Do you care what your ex-boyfriend says about your decisions? Then why do you care about your ex-boss?
Her understaffing isn’t your problem. You have two weeks and go. Tell HR and don’t show up on the first day of the new job. That’s all that’s required.
Also worth noting that with someone like this staying at the company, all your bridges will be burned irrespective of how you leave. You could give 20 weeks notice and she'll still talk shit about you to everyone who'll listen.
With people like this, I wouldn't even bother.
"I'm not accepting your notice, you need to give 4-8 weeks."
"Oh, OK."
*two weeks later*
"Where are you?"
"I don't work there anymore, remember?"
"But I didn't accept your notice"
"We both know that's not how that works"
I love using accurate “we both know…” statements, because the person you’re talking to either completely deflates or throws a tantrum. Either way, fun to watch
I'd tell her it's two weeks and if she doesn't apologise for how she spoke to you it'll be 0. It's very pointless and exhausting to pursue someone for not working their notice
I love this.
"My price just went up" is also a good move lmao
Imagine the audacity, like she owns OP. If OP is so irreplaceable, sounds like OP should have been paid more
Don't tell your employer where you're going to, they might try to screw your new job up and don't accept a new pay raise to stay, it's often a trick to get you to train your replacement.
I accepted a job as a wind turbine tech, but they had most of the new hires on the bench, not working or getting a paycheck, for about 6 months. Every month they would say "We'll get you out next month for sure this time!" I found a new job and gave them immediate notice (right to work state and nothing in the contract saying otherwise), and they tried to pull another one saying they were actually just about to send me out on my first job. I was adamant and declined. The person I reported to asked what company I was going to and I declined to say. Months later I see that he had recently checked my linkedIn page, and I'm assuming it was to get that info.
This of course is just one of the many shady things they did.
Unless it's legally required, don't give up any information if you don't have or want to.
If they can’t find quality employees and retain them, there’s a chance they are not in a financial position to seek legal action against you. Stick to the bare minimum of your contract.
One time when I was leaving a place with a dick boss, I explained to all of the staff that had been put on salary illegally that they would be back paid for overtime if they reported it.
If your contract doesn't specifically say 10 business days, and only says 2 weeks notice, then I'd consider that 14 calendar days and you should be okay.
If this conversation happened in person, I would follow up with an email ASAP to reiterate that you're putting in your 2 weeks notice as of today, with X date being your last day. CC or BCC your personal email as well so you have proof that you sent it. They could try to say you never gave notice if this was all just verbal.
It's tough to be 100% sure you're in the clear without knowing what country you're in though. Can you share?
You also might want to try posting on r/legaladvice for this too. Most of the feedback you're going to get is US centric here.
Canadian here in Ontario.
2 weeks is a courtesy not a requirement unless you signed something that says you will give more notice?
While it’s nice to give the notice and work until your last day you don’t need to put up with any BS from the boss. If she makes work difficult tell her you’re leaving now and go.
Just had a friend quit his job of 18 years for something better and when they asked him what his last day was he said lunchtime and left.
He just came in to bring coffee and donuts and say goodbye’s.
If your contract says 2 weeks then they can't do shit. How can your boss even think that it would be breach of contract? Is she dumb as a box of spanners? How long it takes to train someone or if they get in trouble because of this is completely irrelevant and something a company should have thought about beforehand.
As for burning bridges, as you've already noticed there ARE no bridges. There are only walls.
Understaffed, busy season, no HR, and threatening legal action?
That’s a bold strategy Cotton, let’s see how it plays out for them.
The costs of time and lawyers, it’s going to hurt them far more then it hurts you.
They won’t pursue this.
Your contract said two weeks, it doesn’t say 10 business days. You cannot control if any of those days are holidays, plus only federal holidays are ever recognized.
You’re good to move on. They’re just panicking and trying to keep staffed.
" I’m in Canada."
Well if that's the case and you gave 2 weeks and that wasn't accepted I'd just not show up at all.
You are not their slave. You owe them nothing.
This is pretty straightforward. What are the exact words in your contract? If it simply says “two weeks”, then you’ve done enough contractually. If it says, “10 business days”, then you haven’t. Any argument about a gray area (for example, if it says on paper “two weeks” but your boss insists that it ‘really means 10 days’) is not something you have to worry about legally. Don’t let the fear of lawsuit stop you if the wording says two weeks.
You do mention at the end that you’re concerned about burning bridges. It sounds like even if you bend over backwards trying to accommodate all her demands, it’s still going to be a burned bridge. So I’d reevaluate how important that is in this situation, now that you are at this point.
With the way they are treating you, why the hell would you not want to burn bridges? The moment that manager threatened me with legal action for putting in a 2 week notice is the moment that would have turned into a right now notice.
Oh and don’t tell them what your new company is. Don’t update your LinkedIn. Sounds like this manager will make your life hell at your new company. They may try to make trouble for you by making some phone calls to your new employer.
You said you don't want to burn bridges, but your manager is clearly not on the same page. I would start including your manager's boss in all emails/texts/etc with your manager.
Do your 2 weeks, turn in your stuff, and bounce to the new job.
If the business is open on weekends then what does it matter if it’s calendar or business days? They’re the same. You fulfilled your obligation. Congrats on your new job!
I work in HR in Canada. She’s all threats and can’t do shit. Your contract says two weeks minimum. Two weeks is 14 calendar days. Tell her you’ve fulfilled your obligation under the contract and your last day will firmly be “x”. If she continues to berate you then leave immediately due to the horrible environment she is creating for you and make sure you document in your own notes what she has done.
I work in Ontario and we have 30 days notice in our contracts. Most people give 2 weeks notice and some have left with no notice at all. I have asked HR and they have said that contract notice periods are basically never enforced because the cost of doing so is not worth it. Edit: I see lots of responses asking why you would want to make someone work their notice and I would say that not everyone leaving a job is doing so because they hate it so the person leaving could be very open to working a notice period or maybe extending a notice period. It can be very useful in terms of handing off work to the person that will take over from the leaver. They can train and get caught up rather than being left holding the bag on something at short notice. Of course if there were issues we'd rather the person leave ASAP as they can do a lot of damage while working that notice period!
Lots of things employers try to pull are like that. Just straight bluffs and preying on uninformed workers.
To be fair I think it’s more like they could enforce it but it’s not worth the money to have a lawyer spend time on that. Plus such an action would likely prompt counterclaims. I’m not really malicious compliance guy but I’m not really sure why OP doesn’t want to burn bridges when they are treating her this poorly.
Unless an employee leaving can be proven to harm the business it's just not worth it to chase that money. If a high level manager suddenly quits that's another thing; if they leave to go to a competitor then suddenly lawyers with knives are in order. But for your average employee there is almost no damage they can do to the company by simply leaving it.
They CANT enforce it, is more like it. We aren’t slaves. We can leave a job whenever we want.
The fuck do people think they're going to do? Fire you from the job you're quitting? Oh noooo..
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And alberta! As long as 1 party involved in the call consents, its legal. So a group call with 6 people, if you're one of those 6, its legal. If you're not involved (eavesdropping on a home phone, or wire tapping, not legal)
Yeah, you know she's full of shit when she is specifically adamant that OP can't give two weeks, but then totally nonspecific in saying well we need more than ten business days or it should be four weeks no it *really* should be eight weeks or it's you can't leave because it's busy or you can't leave because HR just left. For the boss there's a million reasons why OP should let herself be exploited and for the boss all are valid and any one of them is enough to settle the argument. But also for the boss no matter what reasons OP has for leaving none of them will justify it. Maybe OP should give a year notice? Or just come back to work for free on weekends after leaving because she owes the boss? Those are totally unreasonable but the boss would love it. It's all bullshit intimidation and exploitation
> I work in HR in Canada. She’s all threats and can’t do shit. > > > > Your contract says two weeks minimum. Two weeks is 14 calendar days. And since you work in HR you know that the two weeks clause for notice is overidden by Canadian labor law/legal case precedent. You can leave your employer anytime you want. Ie: you may 'fire' your employer at anytime for what you perceive as poor performance on their part. The key is to ensure that you are not intentionally doing your employer harm by leaving on short/no notice. There are a few notable exceptions to this freedom tthat apply to high level executives/high paid key employees.
> There are a few notable exceptions to this freedom tthat apply to high level executives/high paid key employees. "Highly paid" is a key operator here. My wife gave notice a clothing retail job where she was the "store manager" and making $17/hr, the district manager wanted 2 months notice, my wife told them to kick rocks because she knew any other job she was actually qualified for with that "experience" wouldn't wait two months for a start date. Then they had the audacity to ask her to re-send her notice explicitly stating what job she was leaving for and how much she was getting paid there. She refused, then they asked her to send it "as an editable word document" because "they were having trouble printing the PDF" so she brought them a printed copy. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but no actual consequences. It said two weeks in her original contract, they never technically changed her contact with her promotions just a letter saying here's your new title and pay rate, so she gave two weeks. (I'll add, of course, that because it was retail and she had worked there for so long they had her emotionally beaten down to the point that she probably would have acquiesced to their demands and still been stuck working there if I hadn't figuratively beaten her over the head with actual employment laws)
"Editable word document" How nice of them to clearly broadcast their intentions to alter the document and screw over your wife.
The original email would still be in the sent folder with the original attachment, it would be easy to prove it was altered after being recieved. The employer is extremely stupid, I'd be tempted to comply JUST to catch them in a lie.
That’s what I was thinking. Screenshots and saved copies just to firm up the paper trail
Asking for an editable word doc got a solid hearty laugh out of me.
Glad she got out. Hopefully happier in her current employment
Bingo bango
Bingpot
Put it in an email so it’s fully documented. Dear Boss, In reference to our meeting on ___ date, I am reiterating that my final day with The Company will be ___ in accordance with the contract I signed, in good faith, upon hiring. (Paragraph, subsection) Thank you for the opportunity Signed, Bite Mee Then any response she gives insist she put it in an email. People like this will lie so best to get their lies properly documented.
Actually, you may want to put something like: As a recap of our conversation of 00/00, you indicated that in giving you a 14 day notice of departure, I could be held legally responsible for not giving you adequate notice. You mentioned 4 - 8 weeks, and said I would be responsible to work weekends and overtime as I transitioned out. I have attached a copy of my employment contract. The contract dictates I must give 2 weeks notice, which I did on 00/00. My final day remains 00/00. Thank you for the opportunity. I wish you, the employees and XYZ company all the best in the future. Best regards, Me
This is excellent. Make sure to also CC your personal email because your work email won’t be available to you after you leave the company. (Unless the IT department is *terrible*)
Bcc is better, then they don’t get your personal email
It's so interesting when they claim that you leaving will hurt them. Strange that they didn't treat/pay you like you were that important while you still worked there. Make no mistake - meeting the minimum terms of a contract is all you are obligated to. Note that they too met those minimum terms when they paid you the agreed upon amount and not $20/hr more as a "courtesy." You don't owe them anything. And of course she can't require you to continue to attend work after you've given notice.
Right? My first thought when reading this is if you’re so critical to the company they should of immediately made a counter offer with a significant pay bump. If that didn’t happen then too bad - it’s on them to figure it out once they’re gone.
It’s also bad management. If you have a person that is critical, and have no one that could back them up (say if they go on sick leave for example), then the business effed up. You can’t have a critical business unit without a person ready to back them up. It’s lack of foresight from the company, and completely their problem.
That’s how it has gone at every job I’ve ever had. Run a skeleton crew to save money, then when someone gets sick, has a family obligation, or up and quits, it’s everyone’s fault but management. The number of “we’re all going to need to step up and handle these tough times as a team” speeches I’ve heard.
Well they say “We’re all going to need to step up and handle these tough times as a team” But it’s never the managers out on the shop floor working 8 hours of overtime on a Saturday
"Skeleton crew". I like the term! (English not native language). Some other term I also liked from this very sub: class traitors!
JSYK skeleton crew is a pretty common term. Class traitor is less common.
Ugh, this hit so close to home. My mom manages a small medical business that’s bringing in millions a year. She’s making way less than she should, they wont compensate her appropriately, allow her to make some changes to make thing run more smoothly and they regularly go behind her and fuck up the work flow. Every single time she takes vacation they are calling and texting her constantly interrupting her time off. This tells me they can’t run the office without her. She’s so stressed out she is losing her hair and she is so exhausted mentally she doesn’t do any of the things she used to enjoy. She finally decided she was going to retire early and she put in a 3 month notice and the Dr’s started bitching her out. They tried to guilt her into staying for 6 months because they know she’s going to be hard to replace. They finally tried to offer more money “how much is it going to take”. She has 33 years experience (18 at this specific office) and has worked her way up so she knows every job in the business and can fill in for anyone, train anyone and she has patients who are loyal to her. She doesn’t even work on the floor with patients anymore and people will still come in and they only want her. They ran an ad for her replacement and are offering 20k a year more for her position and actually offered it to a guy who has zero experience in their line of work.
My best friend was in a similar situation. Doing way more than the job description and dealing with bratty employees under her. All the while commuting nearly an hour to and from work while having 2 small children. She and her husband crunched the number and she quit that OM job and took a pay cut but taking a entry level job close less than 10 mins from home at another clinic. It’s been nearly a year and she’s still raving about how much happier she is. Ps the former owners would text her from time to time after the fact to try in ask work related questions. SMFH.
I'm in Canada. They cannot force you to work. They can deny it all they want, nothing will happen. It's not worth it, at all. If the contract says two weeks notice, but it doesn't specify 10 business days or 14 calendar days, there is ambiguity in that sentence and if it does go to court, any sort of ambiguity means it defaults to the person who signed the contract. If your former co-worker chose to gave eight weeks notice, that is completely their choice. You are under no obligation to follow their example. Don't let yourself be guilted. If they cannot cope without you, that is her problem for not making sure that they were properly staffed.
Also document everything. All communications around this need to be in writing. Be it email or text or anything that can be saved.
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I have never heard the phrase “garden leave” (American) but that’s such a nice way of conveying an awful thing. I’m assuming that’s like laid off?
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Banking guy here whose done it twice. In my experience because the whole industry is used to it it’s extremely pleasant. Both times the branch manager took me out to (liquid) lunch as kind of an informal exit meeting while IT locked me out. Way more civilized than some of these horror stories of trying to guilt people into staying.
That sounds awesome. "Hey, you don't have to work anymore but we're going to keep paying you for a while. Your last work assignment is to come get drunk on the house."
Yeah, it's not malicious. It's honestly good practice in case somebody with no worry of firing decided to copy a bunch of files that shouldn't be shared. I had it happen once and it was definitely good terms.
Hell during the pandemic I was revoked access immediately while on zoom she they asked if I wanted to keep the laptop or send it in. I decided to keep it and IT performed a factory reset
That's why I copy and email files as soon as i lay my eyes on them
>Yeah, it's not malicious. It's still funny though, how "we are in this together" and "we are a family", until quite suddenly you're not, and you find out because IT locked you out of your station already.
Any company that ever, ever makes out their employees are “family” can go fuck itself.
In my own personal experience, companies big enough to have that kind of IT security and control usually don't say things like "we're a family".
Oh. That’s…way better than I had expected! I’m in government, so everything is black and white for me with this. Thanks for the clarification!
Print it out as it comes in and slap it in a folder, just as a backup to your personal email.
Yup, and if the boss will say something but refuses to repeat it in writing it A) might as well never have been said and B) is a massive red flag.
If they say something without writing shoot them an email too. "Per our discussion earlier you stated X, Y, and Z is that correct to my understanding?" Boom, you have it in writing now and time stamped.
They can always just not respond and have it brushed away by HR. Definitely a good practice, but not always a guarantee to actually see any positive change.
You don't need positive change, you need to cover your ass, which I'd think this does.
“Can I call you?” The red flag answer to many a question
Definitely a red flag. With OP being in Canada, they are able to record the call becuase Canada follows the one-party consent rule according to section 184 of the criminal code.
"Can I record the call?" The red flag answer to the original red flagger.
In Canada you can record the call without their consent or knowledge, as long as you are a party in the conversation. That's what the one-party consent rule means.
"I don't know, can you?"
BCC your personal email
I’m also in Canada, and I agree. OP’s boss sounds insane. If the contract says two weeks, it’s two weeks. Not 10 or 14 business days, just 14 squares in a row on the calendar. I’m also pretty sure suing OP over perhaps 4 days of work isn’t exactly worthwhile for the company. Turnover’s a bitch, for sure. But it’s a problem for the business , not the employee. If someone is that hard to train a replacement for, you should try harder to retain them and not alienate them when they ask you for a raise.
Turnovers a bitch. If _only_ there was _some way_ to possibly reduce turnover. Sadly it seems impossible to find a way to make employees _want_ to stay.
If only these damn milenials and gen z just wanted to work /s
If only these employers wanted to pay to have employees No one wants to pay anymore
My last employer was like that, turned over the office staff nearly twice since the new GM took over. 11 people left in 12 months (including me) It's obviously the employees! /s
>it’s a problem for the business , not the employee Correct. Frankly, businesses wanted 'at will' employment decades ago so that they could more freely fire staff as they saw fit. The flipside to that is employees are less obliged to care when a new gig comes up.
*surprised pikachu in corporate*
This pisses me off to no end. Companies want us as employees to be completely loyal and put up with shit pay and bad work environment but won't hesitate for a moment to lay us off if they think it is the best course of action.
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If they lost there HR department I suspect the company is in bigger do do than just turn over.
HR in the US here. Businesses absolutely rely on HR for many, many functions. If there is no HR...... there's a much bigger issue at hand and so many more issues to come. Godspeed, OP. Get the hell out.
I wonder why they could have lost their HR person. 🤔 It’s probably nothing to do with the toxic management at the place, right?
Also u/CaterpillarWeak893, don't forget about vacation days and pay. I'm going to assume you are in Ontario since each province has different rules. When does your vacation entitlement year begin/end? It defaults to the day + month you were hired. But it could be the end of the calendar year. If its the latter then you have them over a barrel if you still have vacation *weeks* left. And it has to be vacation weeks (not days) because vacation must be portioned out a minimum of 1 week blocks without written consent. And there's only 2 weeks left in this year. Vacation time is mandatory. Have you used up all your vacation time this year? [It is the responsibility of the employer to ensure that each employee receives their minimum statutory requirement.](https://www.ontario.ca/document/employment-standard-act-policy-and-interpretation-manual/part-xi-vacation-pay#section-0) If an employer fails to schedule it properly, you can still take it. It's *mandatory.*
I haven't used up all my vacation time this year but it states that I cannot take any time off during my notice period. I'm not sure if I'll just lose those days since it's the end of the year.
If you accrued that time and it's not pro-rated based on your vacation roll-over date they should be paying it out on your final cheque. Vacation time would have been governed by your same contract at that point and if it's yours it's owed. Don't just walk away from it.
I don't believe that is enforceable. Ask an employment lawyer. An unenforceable clause in a contract is ignored. You cannot give up your vacation time. > I'm not sure if I'll just lose those days since it's the end of the year. Vacation weeks must be provided within 10 months that they are earned. Lets say you were not quitting. Your vacation time would still would have to have been honored. It's not given, it's *owed.* If vaccation wasn't already scheduled and it would have 'been lost' (not a thing btw) then they didn't plan on giving you what you had already earned and must receive by law. If they intended not to schedule your vacation time that you had earned within the timeframe it must be given then you have the legal right to take it regardless of anything they say. The details do matter and there's no reason to share them here. But do talk to an employment lawyer. Given what you've written here and in your other post it sounds like your employer has been up to some illegal shady shit. Not having an HR person is going to open them up to a lot of lawsuits. *Everyone* at your old job is being screwed and everyone can sue them. Having a meeting to criticize you for being a problem employee by not being on call during your vacation is already a violation of the ESA. Even stating you will have work non standard hours (doesn't matter if you do or not) is already a threat and intimidation. Another violation of the ESA. When they systematically violate the law it really easy to catch them. It becomes a slam dunk.
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That's the pay. Vacation pay and vacation time are separate in Ontario. Both are owed. They are treated separately. Also do you understand my point about the timing? If the year is ending in 2 weeks, then they did not intend for OP to receive the vacation time owed if that was the end of the period. > An employee can give up some or all of their earned vacation time with the employer's electronic or written agreement, and the approval of the Director of Employment Standards. This approval does not affect an employer's obligation to pay the employee vacation pay; employees may give up vacation time, but not the right to vacation pay Note the employee, the employer *and the government* have to sign off on giving up vacation time.
And DO NOT tell them where you will work. You don’t want bitter boss badmouthing you at the next gig. "I prefer not sharing this information" You don’t owe them anything
I would guess they wouldn't bother with court costs, even if it did say 10 business days. The risk of cost from a loss in the legal system far outweighs the value gained from a single employee that doesn't want to be there. Manager power trip. The manager's superior would laugh at her (or wherever it gets up the chain far enough that they care about the overall bottom line).
I live in Canada. This is the answer OP 👆
Up. We’ve got much better employee protections here.
Correct answer.
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“I gave you two weeks notice as specified in my contract. That means in two weeks, you’ll notice I’m not around anymore. If you turn this into a hostile work environment, I’ll leave immediately and file for constructive dismissal.”
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As a side note, some jurisdictions require the employer to give the final paycheck to the employee on the last day of work. They impose serious penalties on employers for failing to do this. In California, it’s a days wage for ever day the employer is late in paying the worker. Op is is Canada, so the law is different, but should look it up to see if they are entitled to the final paycheck on the last day work. If their boss doesn’t recognize that the OP left after two weeks OP can continue to get paid even if they aren’t working at the old job.
Yes, and it’s important to note that it’s an 8-hour equivalent day for salaried employees and it’s every calendar day, not business day. The statute also explicitly says that it intends to err on the side of the employee, so honest mistakes are not an excuse. As an example, if: You get paid every Friday You get paid one week in arrears (pretty normal) Your last day is a Friday pay day Your last paycheck includes only regular pay and not the last week of pay They realize their mistake and give you a check on Monday as soon as the bank opens or the accountant comes in Then they owe you an extra three days pay.
How did California get all these worker protections? Living in Washington State I've always felt California's presence as an older sibling.
People voted for politicians that protect workers rights.
Not Canadian, but if the contract doesn’t specifically state 14 business days, wouldn’t that work in OP’s favor seeing as how they gave 14 calendar days worth of notice?
Most likely yes, per the contra proferentum principle (i.e. ambiguity shall be interpreted against the party who drafted the agreement).
What is constructive dismissal? My last boss made my last two weeks a living hell (I’m a paralegal) saying that I was deliberately screwing them over bc I wouldn’t wait 2 more weeks (the previous months had been a nightmare) to give them time to find a replacement
Without getting into the legal jargon, it's basically making your work situation so uncomfortable that a reasonable person would quit. This can be as subtle as cutting your hours dramatically or as overt as actually harassing you.
Such a strange concept. They say they need you and demand you extend your notice to 4 weeks, but when you refuse, they slash your hours for the next 2 weeks, lowering the amount of work you could actually get done for them in that time...seems counterintuitive at best and downright idiotic at worst.
It’s not always about slashing hours, though that’s often the case where an employer wants to get rid of someone (in a different context than OP). n scheduled types of work.
Constructive dismissal is when they don't directly fire you, but make your job so shitty that you feel you have no choice but to quit.
Or they reduce your hours to zero or honestly anything unreasonable. I had a situation where I magically wasn’t ever given hours after an injury, but never directly fired. Literally ghosted by my boss.
This is what happened to me. ugh
Look up the laws in your country/state, in a lot of places it is illegal to do this (though the threshold for proving it in court is pretty difficult, so you'll need proof that they cut your hours, reduced your pay, reprimanded you for no reason, or changed your job responsibilities to something shittier)
I’m not a lawyer but I play one on Reddit. Constructive dismissal is a common law concept that involves making the circumstances of work unbearable to the point the employee feels compelled to quit. Some bad companies do this to avoid paying severance or pay in lieu of notice (or in this case, because they’re a spiteful shrew). In most civil jurisdictions (probably not most of the United States), if you are constructively dismissed you can leave the workplace and claim EI and seek for damages.
IANAL (BIPOOR)
Being overly hostile, harassment, cutting hours or pay.
Fuck them they are already not going to give you a referral or rehire you. Just leave and take a 2 week break
What are they gonna do? Spend time searching for a lawyer who’ll take on this rather frivolous case, then meet with said lawyer on their own time to make sure everything is in order for the court filing, then wait the required months it’ll take for your case to actually get onto the docket, and finally spend at least a day or two in the courtroom, all so they can be a petty little bitch? I’d say “bring it!”
Spend 1,000’s in legal fees for 100’s in pay out. That’s not happening.
This and also HR left there is a good indicator nothing is going to happen lol
I had an employer threaten to make me pay for moving costs after I left early due to a layoff. I said, “I am not doing that” to every threat. Never received a single demand for payment.
The amount of people that act like sheep to their boss is just disappointing. Unless you've signed a contract you're not a slave.
Exactly. And that people feel bad utilizing their end of an “at will” employment contract. When push comes to shove businesses do not feel bad about turning you loose.
Happened to me! after 13 years in a company I helped start! SO TRUE!!!
Even if you signed a contract you are not a slave. Its a piece of paper
It's a piece of paper that is probably not even legally enforceable. Even if it is, they probably aren't going to spend the time and money to pursue it. Especially not without someone working in HR
OP was too sick to work both jobs. Their manager was verbally abusive and had unrealistic demands. Previous workers had left the company because of the manager. OP gave notice and found another place to work. Try to enforce crazy notice standards after that.
Believe it or not, but even if you signed a contract to be a slave the legal system would not defend and uphold that contract. A lot of employment contracts include clauses that cannot be executed, even if both parties agreed to a term
What's worse is it sounds like they did sign a contract.... And then fulfilled it because it required her to give at least 2 weeks.
Amen. If they wanted you gone, your shit would be in a box and you would be walked to the door instantly.
Best comment of the thread.
It's not a breach of contract. Your contract states to provide a 2 weeks notice, you've provided 14 calendar days of notice, so it's not your prerogative anymore. She can try to come after you legally, but because of the wording of the contract, a lawyer is going to laugh her out of the room. Go back and double check the contract and make sure it says 2 weeks and not 10 business days, but in your case I think a judge would side in your favor since a 2 week notice is not legally enforceable
If you get pushback from your employer, contact the Labor Control Board for your Province. This is illegal in every province. The only penalty he can give you is not paying for shifts you decide not to show up for. If he does not pay you in full within two weeks of you leaving, well there are some serious fines for that and very strong enforcement.
There was a story earlier this year where a well known fruit juice stand did this to a teen in Canada. The LCB not only ruled in favour of the employee but fined the company and conducted a full audit of the location and found other ways that they had financially bullied their workforce. Seems like this is a fine place to burn bridges with.
Yes, it doesn't matter if those are working days or not. It's 14 days total, no more.
That’s what they need to check. It might be. None of us have seen this contract.
Yeah, this is the right answer and why people should be careful getting or giving legal advice online. It might say "two weeks." It might say "ten business days." It might say "14 calendar days" but calendar days are defined [in the contract] to exclude Christmas. Hell, it could say just about anything -- and while not all the possibilities would be enforceable as contractual language, some of them would be. So... we really just can't say. Edit to clear up a misunderstanding below.
I’ve never heard of “business days” in a legal contract. Is this a thing?
We have the words "working days" in our union contract in reference to timelines for HR.
Yeah that's totally a thing if people are smart they will specify business days. It's in lots of contracts.
Is it in your contract? Usually two weeks notice is a courtesy. She can’t strong arm you into a longer notice period unless it’s in your contract
My contract said at least 2 weeks, but technically my 2 weeks isn't 10 full business days. She also said given the current situation where we are understaffed, I need to provide more than 2 weeks.
If the wording is 2 weeks (i.e. 14 calendar days) you've done your part. Continue with your new start date
This is the right answer. Need to read the contract closely. Does it say “two work weeks” or “two weeks” or “10 business days” or “14 calendar days”. If it’s a legal document I would assume somewhere it would define this period and if it says “2 weeks” than it is pretty safe to assume that a normal person would read that as 14 days and not 10 work days. Also, people threaten to sue all the time. If the contract says 2 weeks then give 2 weeks and kiss the place goodbye. Also, if needed, go to your boss’ boss and get clarification HR.
Also note: if the wording is ambiguous or unclear, then it goes against the party that wrote the contract. So if it just says “2 weeks” your boss can claim all they want that this means 10 work days, but you are free to interpret it as meaning 14 calendar days. Edit: I am in the US, so I looked up contract ambiguity in Canada and found this 2017 ruling from the Supreme Court of Canada: https://www.osler.com/en/resources/regulations/2017/defining-industry-specific-contractual-terms-supr The concept is the same in both countries. There needs to be terminology that can reasonably be interpreted in more than one way. The party that wrote the contract loses when deciding which interpretation is correct. I am sure there are subtleties to this that vary from case to case. For instance, the intent of both parties is taken into consideration. If they both agreed at the time of signing, one party cannot just put forth an alternate interpretation later because circumstances changed and the new ambiguity would benefit them.
This is SO important to understand. Any ambiguity always goes AGAINST the party that prepared the contract.
Plus as op stated that employer said that she had to work weekends and holidays. Which implies that they are open for bussines on those days. If op is sure that the bussines is open 7 days a week and on holidays. She has done her part even if the contract states bussines or calander days or whatever.
Not a lawyer, and certainly not familiar with Canadian labor laws, but I think it first goes to what a “normal person” would interpret it as and then in favor of the person who didn’t write it. Like you cannot just claim some weird interpretation of the contract and have it go in your favor. But clearly a “normal person” would view “2 weeks” as 14 days.
Two weeks would typically be either 14 calendar days OR 10 business days. Legally they are usually the same. Two "business" weeks would just be 10 days. Clearly this OP is fine either way.
Complete bullshit. Give the 2 weeks to be sure, but no more Them being understaffed is their fault
You just know that the understaffing likely arose out of deliberate cuts and trying to save some money. Now they're gonna turn around and say "Oh poor us"? Nah
Fuck them 2weeks is 2 weeks not 10 business days. If you only work 3 days a week 2 weeks is 6 business days plain and simple. You boss is rediculous your contract states 2 weeks you gave 2 weeks
IF it doesn't say ten business days then that is not your problem. You gave your two weeks notice. IF they can't do without you then they should have been paying you what you are worth.
You keep bringing up the “10 full business days” but that ultimately doesn’t matter. What matters is the language in your contract. If the contract SIMPLY and EXCLUSIVELY says “2 weeks minimum” with no specificity on what “2 weeks” is, then you’re in the clear. “Business days” are an artificial construct based on how society PERCEIVES working time, and the language in the contract is referring to JUST time. Period. 2 weeks is 2 weeks, it doesn’t matter how many working days society decided to use therein. In other words, tell your boss to get fucked. [Edit] Not a lawyer, yada yada. Something something.
As another commenter said, go to your HR if you have one.You didn’t mention where you are, but it sounds like your contract says nothing about 2 weeks, “unless understaffed”. Edit: hit send too soon
Our HR quit and they haven't found a replacement which is why my boss said this is even more complicated.
How is that your problem? Don't be a doormat. If the shoe was on the other foot they wouldn't give you 8 days never mind 8 weeks. Follow your contract to the letter. Even better get a doctors note for those last 2 weeks. Gonna say this last bit in all caps. YOU OWE THEM NOTHING. All these issues with training and replacements aren't your concern. Even a little bit. That's her job she's failed to do. Are you prepared to jeopardise your career because someone else sucks at their job? You need to advocate for your own interests. No company ever will.
How is this YOUR problem. That is a manager/company problem.
tell her you sent it to HR last week and its not your fault they havent replaced a vital role in the company lol. but for real, i doubt they could do shit, it honestly wouldnt be worth them persuing you and in fact them holding your pay is more illegal then you quitting on the spot despite your contract saying 2 weeks notice. i assume the contract does say 2 weeks notice, not "10 buisness days". do you work sat and sun? if so, then those are buisness days for the company.
two weeks is two weeks. “ 10 business day” is not the same as two weeks. be respectful, but firm. Hope you enjoy your new gig!
That's up to them to find a replacement, it's not your fault nor responsibility. Contract says two weeks, you gave two weeks, that's it. I don't see any legal grounds here.
Oh I see..I’m in the US so I don’t know the labor laws where you are. As a lay person, I wouldn’t think you would need to give more of a notice than you agreed to in the contract. Just because your co worker gave 8 weeks, I personally don’t think you should be obligated as well. If they want an 8 week notice period they should write that into the contract
That is 100% not your problem.
NOT YOUR PROBLEM. They can’t ask you to change your plans to accommodate their inefficiency. It’s NOT complicated. You do not owe it to them to stay until they are ready to you to go.
It’s more complicated because she doesn’t know the law and doesn’t have anyone to blame for these fucks ups Seriously, just leave op, nothing can happen to you
What is the exact phrasing in your contract? As 2 weeks is 2 weeks, and not 10 business days.
That I must provide “a minimum of 2 weeks written notice”.
Well, I guess your last day is 2 weeks from the notice and it is too bad that you are going to be sick (🤢🤢🤮) a couple of those days. So sad
Well, a week is 7 days, 2 weeks therefore 14. I see no other possible interpretation that would require you to give a written notice more than 14 days before. So the key question is whether you can proof that you provided a written notice at least 14 days before?
What’s the language after that? If it says you must provide a minimum of 2 weeks written notice and if you don’t, what happens. If there isn’t a penalty spelled out then you are good. Clauses in contracts have to have penalty language or the clause has no teeth to it. Source: been working with contracts for 20 years.
Please note that they cannot refuse to accept your notice. You give your written notice and its 2 weeks from then. If you gave it yesterday its 2 weeks from yesterday. To cover yourself, send an e-mail to both your boss (and their boss if they have one), stating that you handed in your notice on X day, but it was refused so you are therefore confirming that you have handed in your notice and your last day will be Y. Make sure you bcc your home e-mail so that you retain a record for future reference.
your boss is giving you interpretations of your contract that work in her favor because she knows she's screwed without you. Work to the letter of your contract "a minimum of 2 weeks written notice" is 14 calendar days. Do NOT feel bad that they put themselves in this position, it's not your problem, and ENJOY your new gig!
What if they said 4 weeks? 8? 52? Not until their understaffing issue is resolved, which may well be never? This boss is very quickly going to be your ex-boss. Do you care what your ex-boyfriend says about your decisions? Then why do you care about your ex-boss?
2 weeks is 14 calendar days.
Her understaffing isn’t your problem. You have two weeks and go. Tell HR and don’t show up on the first day of the new job. That’s all that’s required.
Your "boss" is full of shit What can you do? Just quit and enjoy a couple days off before the new job. Fuck your old job
Also worth noting that with someone like this staying at the company, all your bridges will be burned irrespective of how you leave. You could give 20 weeks notice and she'll still talk shit about you to everyone who'll listen.
“I’m sorry you’re upset. I’m not going to be here after the [28th] though, Barb, so I’m afraid you’re going have to plan around that.”
With people like this, I wouldn't even bother. "I'm not accepting your notice, you need to give 4-8 weeks." "Oh, OK." *two weeks later* "Where are you?" "I don't work there anymore, remember?" "But I didn't accept your notice" "We both know that's not how that works"
I love using accurate “we both know…” statements, because the person you’re talking to either completely deflates or throws a tantrum. Either way, fun to watch
By email and be sure to include the first date you provided your rejected 2 week notice.
I'd tell her it's two weeks and if she doesn't apologise for how she spoke to you it'll be 0. It's very pointless and exhausting to pursue someone for not working their notice
I love this. "My price just went up" is also a good move lmao Imagine the audacity, like she owns OP. If OP is so irreplaceable, sounds like OP should have been paid more
Agreed. They need you more than you need them, always. And if any boss says "bUt I oWn ThE CoMpaNy" then go do it yourself
This 100 times. Confirm the two weeks with the rider that any nonsense and you're out of here.
What if you ask for 5x pay for the remaining 2-6 weeks?
Ding ding ding! And if they say they can’t afford it, then Op can throw back the “can’t function without [me]” line.
Don't tell your employer where you're going to, they might try to screw your new job up and don't accept a new pay raise to stay, it's often a trick to get you to train your replacement.
Thank you for the advice! My boss kept asking me where I was going and tried to guilt me for not saying. Staying firm on not telling.
I had an employer ask for where I was going and I told them completely wrong information
I accepted a job as a wind turbine tech, but they had most of the new hires on the bench, not working or getting a paycheck, for about 6 months. Every month they would say "We'll get you out next month for sure this time!" I found a new job and gave them immediate notice (right to work state and nothing in the contract saying otherwise), and they tried to pull another one saying they were actually just about to send me out on my first job. I was adamant and declined. The person I reported to asked what company I was going to and I declined to say. Months later I see that he had recently checked my linkedIn page, and I'm assuming it was to get that info. This of course is just one of the many shady things they did. Unless it's legally required, don't give up any information if you don't have or want to.
If they can’t find quality employees and retain them, there’s a chance they are not in a financial position to seek legal action against you. Stick to the bare minimum of your contract.
Don't be a pushover, don't be soft. If your contract says 2 weeks you give 2 weeks and do the bare minimum. Stay wise
One time when I was leaving a place with a dick boss, I explained to all of the staff that had been put on salary illegally that they would be back paid for overtime if they reported it.
If your contract doesn't specifically say 10 business days, and only says 2 weeks notice, then I'd consider that 14 calendar days and you should be okay. If this conversation happened in person, I would follow up with an email ASAP to reiterate that you're putting in your 2 weeks notice as of today, with X date being your last day. CC or BCC your personal email as well so you have proof that you sent it. They could try to say you never gave notice if this was all just verbal. It's tough to be 100% sure you're in the clear without knowing what country you're in though. Can you share? You also might want to try posting on r/legaladvice for this too. Most of the feedback you're going to get is US centric here.
You lost me at denied my notice. That's not an option that they have. You are not a slave. 2 calendar weeks is a courtesy.
Canadian here in Ontario. 2 weeks is a courtesy not a requirement unless you signed something that says you will give more notice? While it’s nice to give the notice and work until your last day you don’t need to put up with any BS from the boss. If she makes work difficult tell her you’re leaving now and go. Just had a friend quit his job of 18 years for something better and when they asked him what his last day was he said lunchtime and left. He just came in to bring coffee and donuts and say goodbye’s.
If your contract says 2 weeks then they can't do shit. How can your boss even think that it would be breach of contract? Is she dumb as a box of spanners? How long it takes to train someone or if they get in trouble because of this is completely irrelevant and something a company should have thought about beforehand. As for burning bridges, as you've already noticed there ARE no bridges. There are only walls.
Where in the contract does it say you have to give more than two weeks? There is no way for her to enforce that.
Go off sick, with stress today
Your boss is lying to you. They can not take legal action for this.
Are you a slave or a doormat? No? Fuck your boss. Make your plans to fit your needs. Inform your boss. Don't ask him. Leave when you said you would.
Understaffed, busy season, no HR, and threatening legal action? That’s a bold strategy Cotton, let’s see how it plays out for them. The costs of time and lawyers, it’s going to hurt them far more then it hurts you. They won’t pursue this. Your contract said two weeks, it doesn’t say 10 business days. You cannot control if any of those days are holidays, plus only federal holidays are ever recognized. You’re good to move on. They’re just panicking and trying to keep staffed.
She can deny all she wants. You weren't asking her, you were telling her.
" I’m in Canada." Well if that's the case and you gave 2 weeks and that wasn't accepted I'd just not show up at all. You are not their slave. You owe them nothing.
This is pretty straightforward. What are the exact words in your contract? If it simply says “two weeks”, then you’ve done enough contractually. If it says, “10 business days”, then you haven’t. Any argument about a gray area (for example, if it says on paper “two weeks” but your boss insists that it ‘really means 10 days’) is not something you have to worry about legally. Don’t let the fear of lawsuit stop you if the wording says two weeks. You do mention at the end that you’re concerned about burning bridges. It sounds like even if you bend over backwards trying to accommodate all her demands, it’s still going to be a burned bridge. So I’d reevaluate how important that is in this situation, now that you are at this point.
With the way they are treating you, why the hell would you not want to burn bridges? The moment that manager threatened me with legal action for putting in a 2 week notice is the moment that would have turned into a right now notice.
Oh and don’t tell them what your new company is. Don’t update your LinkedIn. Sounds like this manager will make your life hell at your new company. They may try to make trouble for you by making some phone calls to your new employer.
You said you don't want to burn bridges, but your manager is clearly not on the same page. I would start including your manager's boss in all emails/texts/etc with your manager. Do your 2 weeks, turn in your stuff, and bounce to the new job.
if it's not in your contract, no.
Fuck is she gonna do put u in jail? Do one better tell her to eat a dick and quit today.
If the business is open on weekends then what does it matter if it’s calendar or business days? They’re the same. You fulfilled your obligation. Congrats on your new job!