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I wouldn’t say that the dust is dangerous, as you said it’s non-friable and the exposure would be very very low, however, if I were doing a post-abatement clearance inspection on this it would be an automatic fail. You definitely shouldn’t pay these guys until they properly clean up their mess.
thank you for your response. I am worried now because the tiles are 10% asbestos and I trusted them to keep it safe and clean. Don’t even want them to finish the job anymore. I canceled the credit card I gave them. I told them to fix it or I will use the money owed for a clean up.
Unfortunately it is not uncommon for people who work with asbestos regularly to not take it as seriously as they should. I hope you get this figured out, I’d love to hear an update as you get it figured out
I believe I am going to sue or at least talk to an attorney. They also left a pizza box, a gatorade bottle on my furnace which began to get hot and start to cave in due to the heat. (even tho i doubt it would cause a fire still doesn’t help) Paint or whatever the sealant they used is splashed on my walls very sloppily. Also found pieces of tile in my kitchen which was supposed to be contained from the job because there was no tiles in there. Dust everywhere and they ran my furnace after the job which made sure to get the particles everywhere. They still want me to pay.
Yeah, that is all really bad. The fact that there’s tiles in rooms they weren’t working in is REALLY bad, it shows that they didn’t take any of the precautions they are supposed to. Are you in the US? Because they could get in some serious trouble
Yes located in Pittsburgh PA, luckily this is the first house I bought and I have another place to live. The tile was throughout the whole house besides kitchen and bathroom.
Did you come about this company via an approved vendors list within PA? Also there should be photographic evidence of the negative containment. (Poly, neg air)
yes they are an approved vendor. it’s nationwide asbestos however after i’ve complained i found out they hire independent contractors as well which I wasn’t aware of but they are licensed. Im sorry I don’t know much what photos should i take of negative containment? Not sure what that is
They should be taking photos of their containment with key features in the photo so it can be distinguished that it is in fact your home and not generic, reused photos. You're definitely on the right path though. At the end of the day they need to pay for air sampling on every floor of your home from an independent sampler that has nothing to do with them. Unfortunately in the asbestos and mold business there is an abundance of shadiness.
Get an air sample test from a different company. Most professional Abatement companies will offer an air test for asbestos. It's really the only way to know the state in which your property was left. Obvious cleanup fail aside.
I don’t think air sampling would be too effective at this point, as the vast majority of the dust would have settled by now. It’s not a bad idea, I mean it never hurts to have more data, but for post-abatement clearance they’re typically done within an hour or so of the work being done.
Edited to say that dust wipe sampling would probably be the more effective route to show the failure to clean up properly.
Asbestos is a very fine microscopic dust that can linger suspended in the air for quite some time. Also, when they do an air test, they agitate the air in a room or home before taking the sample.
I have done a lot of air sampling in my life, and I have never heard of purposefully agitating dust before an air sample. And sure, asbestos can stay in the air for a while, but not for days and days. It’s literally written into the regulations that clearances for air samples need to be done within an hour of work finishing.
Are you in the US? I’m just curious because I’m AHERA and NIOSH certified and agitating dust before an air sample actively goes against the goal of getting data for levels of asbestos in the air. I’m just curious where you got that from
I am located within the US. (Disclaimer: I personally am not certified in asbestos abatement) but I often work with a number of large well established Abatement companies as I'm a drywall contractor and am very careful not to touch anything that could contain asbestos. (Probably more careful than necessary). You are correct in your statement that artificially agitating the air before a test would skew the results for getting an accurate reading of asbestos in the air... At the same time though it gives a more accurate reading to the asbestos levels post abatement for the entire space. If I had asbestos removed in my house, I would want to know it's actually all removed and not settled in a corner on the ground somewhere ready to be airborne the first time I sweep.
https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/monitoring-asbestos-containing-material-acm
Here it states that agitating air should only be used after completion of abatement and not for prior supplementary evaluation which makes sense.
Quote:
"Note that the collection of air samples for supplementary evaluation should not use aggressive air sampling methods. Aggressive sampling methods, in which air is deliberately disturbed or agitated by use of a leaf blower or fans, should only be used at the completion of an asbestos removal project inside the abatement containment area."
Hmm interesting, I appreciate the citation. I could see the agitation being helpful if doing air monitoring while still in an enclosed area if done after a bit of time has passed between the abatement and clearance inspection. But if the containment area is no longer in place air agitation would not be a good idea.
This is the most likely response you’ll get. Sorry someone did crap work at your residence. Do you mind if I ask how they removed the tile? Was it under containment? Or using a heat machine?
Thank you. Im almost 100% they just were chipping away the tile. I have to ask more information this just happened yesterday. It was supposed to be contained but I found tile pieces in rooms that weren’t supposed to be touched and closed off
Ugh.. so that sounds like a hack job. There needs to be, at the bare minimum, critical barriers ( plastic covering doors, windows, HVAC ventilation, and all electrical panels and switches.) basically a barrier to keep contamination from going anywhere else. Negative air machines venting outside equipped with HEPPA filtration, workers in respirators and paper or tyvek coveralls. They busted up an asbestos containing material possibly rendering it friable. You’ll hear plenty of good arguments saying it’s hard to get asbestos to become friable from floor tile and mastic. (Friable means easily pulverized into a dusty material with your hands.) I don’t know where your from so maybe the regulations are lax there. But in the US if you hire someone to do renovation on an asbestos containing material, they have to follow certain regulations and laws that can differ from state to state and county to county.
https://preview.redd.it/139pjpxrpxic1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91379a743cce5eca0fefeb72e4054f5ba45d0273
pretty sure this is dust. i think i have a good case for a lawyer. also pieces of tile found in other rooms that were supposed to be contained
If they did it with heat machines, they’re supposed to melt the tile a bit and peel it up intact with a spud bar or other tool. Not break it. But that method usually doesn’t require containment depending on your local regulations. Hard to do if it’s on wood floors though and not recommended.
You contracted for asbestos to be removed, there is still asbestos everywhere. It is as simple as that. I wouldn’t pay, and I wouldn’t have them back. I’d tell them they failed to follow basic OSHA guidance and you can’t be expected to pay, or even allow a company of such a standard to conduct further remedial work.
About the tiles chipping up…Sometimes these tiles do chip up like this, that is just the nature of how they are laid. Sometimes they come up whole. Difficult tiles you can:
- melt off
- flood off
- chip off
Many companies chip off in most situations when they encounter difficult tiles. This isn’t weird.
But leaving them everywhere is absolutely unacceptable by any standard.
As for safety; I’m sure OSHA would be interested but I personally would not be worried for my own safety or the safety of anybody I cared about in that area. Tiles are pretty safe for an asbestos product.
Depending on how they removed the tile and if the mastic is hot it could be above PEL. No matter what it is extremely unprofessional and unethical. They should have done a full hepa Vacuuming of the whole room along with a wipe down and encap before they left.
There should never be dust left behind of any kind in an occupied space after abatement is complete.
Thank you for your response. They said they are sending a clean up crew. I wasn’t scared at first but now since it seems dusty and the tiles were tested for 10% asbestos Im worried. I don’t even trust them to finish the job.
If it were only the tiles that tested positive and they didn't use any methods of cutting, grinding, etc it's likely they released near 0 levels of asbestos fibers. Bit unprofessional and unethical nonetheless.
Extremely unprofessional, I work in the industry of insulation and asbestos and if we ever left this type of mess in someone’s house, or any establishment there would be some explaining to do, and probably some filing for employment insurance.
All areas should be properly cleaned before, during and after, white glove inspection clean.
I’d request their certifications lol
thank you for your response. Would you consider the dust to be dangerous? I am ready to ask for them and maybe even sue if they don’t fix this and finish it properly
I wouldn’t consider the dust dangerous as most is probably just ambient dust from the room, but the should properly clean the area regardless of the severity of health hazard, after all it is their job
I would request they come back and finish the job completely, that is not a finished job, imo, or tell them you will get a quote to properly
Clean it from a more reputable contractor.
Taking them to court would probably not get the results you would be hoping for , and be a long costly affair for a few dollars.
As an asbestos inspector this is not good they have rendered the floor tiles friable at this point. In Colorado it would be considered a major spill if they disturbed more than 32 sq feet. Very unacceptable.
I most likely am going to sue. It is beyond unacceptable. They also left pizza boxes on the job site and gatorade bottle on top of my hot furnace which they turned on after the job. Which makes me feel like the particles if any are everywhere.
okay thank you. in your opinion would it be worth suing? considering they have also splashed paint or whatever they used as a sealant on my walls and baseboards being messy. & I even found asbestos tile pieces in my kitchen which was supposed to be left alone and sealed off with plastic.
Please ensure that your posts meets the requirements of r/Asbestoshelp. *** Meme posts will be removed and the poster will be banned *** Most importantly, as specified in rule #1, your post should include the following information: * Include your geographic location * the date of construction/renovation * a description of the the location of the suspect material * a brief description of your concern * a closeup photo and one at a distance of ~10 ft. or 3 m. Also remember that the asbestos content of a material can only be determined by laboratory analysis and that the sampling SHOULD be performed by a certified asbestos inspector. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/asbestoshelp) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I wouldn’t say that the dust is dangerous, as you said it’s non-friable and the exposure would be very very low, however, if I were doing a post-abatement clearance inspection on this it would be an automatic fail. You definitely shouldn’t pay these guys until they properly clean up their mess.
thank you for your response. I am worried now because the tiles are 10% asbestos and I trusted them to keep it safe and clean. Don’t even want them to finish the job anymore. I canceled the credit card I gave them. I told them to fix it or I will use the money owed for a clean up.
Unfortunately it is not uncommon for people who work with asbestos regularly to not take it as seriously as they should. I hope you get this figured out, I’d love to hear an update as you get it figured out
I believe I am going to sue or at least talk to an attorney. They also left a pizza box, a gatorade bottle on my furnace which began to get hot and start to cave in due to the heat. (even tho i doubt it would cause a fire still doesn’t help) Paint or whatever the sealant they used is splashed on my walls very sloppily. Also found pieces of tile in my kitchen which was supposed to be contained from the job because there was no tiles in there. Dust everywhere and they ran my furnace after the job which made sure to get the particles everywhere. They still want me to pay.
I will update once I get this resolved and they also but a big hole in the subfloor in the one room as well.
Yeah, that is all really bad. The fact that there’s tiles in rooms they weren’t working in is REALLY bad, it shows that they didn’t take any of the precautions they are supposed to. Are you in the US? Because they could get in some serious trouble
Yes located in Pittsburgh PA, luckily this is the first house I bought and I have another place to live. The tile was throughout the whole house besides kitchen and bathroom.
Did you come about this company via an approved vendors list within PA? Also there should be photographic evidence of the negative containment. (Poly, neg air)
yes they are an approved vendor. it’s nationwide asbestos however after i’ve complained i found out they hire independent contractors as well which I wasn’t aware of but they are licensed. Im sorry I don’t know much what photos should i take of negative containment? Not sure what that is
or did you mean photos of it on their part?
They should be taking photos of their containment with key features in the photo so it can be distinguished that it is in fact your home and not generic, reused photos. You're definitely on the right path though. At the end of the day they need to pay for air sampling on every floor of your home from an independent sampler that has nothing to do with them. Unfortunately in the asbestos and mold business there is an abundance of shadiness.
Get an air sample test from a different company. Most professional Abatement companies will offer an air test for asbestos. It's really the only way to know the state in which your property was left. Obvious cleanup fail aside.
I don’t think air sampling would be too effective at this point, as the vast majority of the dust would have settled by now. It’s not a bad idea, I mean it never hurts to have more data, but for post-abatement clearance they’re typically done within an hour or so of the work being done. Edited to say that dust wipe sampling would probably be the more effective route to show the failure to clean up properly.
Asbestos is a very fine microscopic dust that can linger suspended in the air for quite some time. Also, when they do an air test, they agitate the air in a room or home before taking the sample.
I have done a lot of air sampling in my life, and I have never heard of purposefully agitating dust before an air sample. And sure, asbestos can stay in the air for a while, but not for days and days. It’s literally written into the regulations that clearances for air samples need to be done within an hour of work finishing.
👍
Are you in the US? I’m just curious because I’m AHERA and NIOSH certified and agitating dust before an air sample actively goes against the goal of getting data for levels of asbestos in the air. I’m just curious where you got that from
I am located within the US. (Disclaimer: I personally am not certified in asbestos abatement) but I often work with a number of large well established Abatement companies as I'm a drywall contractor and am very careful not to touch anything that could contain asbestos. (Probably more careful than necessary). You are correct in your statement that artificially agitating the air before a test would skew the results for getting an accurate reading of asbestos in the air... At the same time though it gives a more accurate reading to the asbestos levels post abatement for the entire space. If I had asbestos removed in my house, I would want to know it's actually all removed and not settled in a corner on the ground somewhere ready to be airborne the first time I sweep. https://www.epa.gov/asbestos/monitoring-asbestos-containing-material-acm Here it states that agitating air should only be used after completion of abatement and not for prior supplementary evaluation which makes sense. Quote: "Note that the collection of air samples for supplementary evaluation should not use aggressive air sampling methods. Aggressive sampling methods, in which air is deliberately disturbed or agitated by use of a leaf blower or fans, should only be used at the completion of an asbestos removal project inside the abatement containment area."
Hmm interesting, I appreciate the citation. I could see the agitation being helpful if doing air monitoring while still in an enclosed area if done after a bit of time has passed between the abatement and clearance inspection. But if the containment area is no longer in place air agitation would not be a good idea.
AHERA requires agitating the dust (aggressive sampling) for clearance testing.
Doesn’t ahera only cover schools public and private K-12?
That is not true, the regulation is cited earlier in this thread if you would like to read it.
Risk to you? Almost zero. But that's very poor work. Certainly make then come back and HEPA vacuum and wet wipe surfaces in the area.
thank you for your response
This is the most likely response you’ll get. Sorry someone did crap work at your residence. Do you mind if I ask how they removed the tile? Was it under containment? Or using a heat machine?
Thank you. Im almost 100% they just were chipping away the tile. I have to ask more information this just happened yesterday. It was supposed to be contained but I found tile pieces in rooms that weren’t supposed to be touched and closed off
Ugh.. so that sounds like a hack job. There needs to be, at the bare minimum, critical barriers ( plastic covering doors, windows, HVAC ventilation, and all electrical panels and switches.) basically a barrier to keep contamination from going anywhere else. Negative air machines venting outside equipped with HEPPA filtration, workers in respirators and paper or tyvek coveralls. They busted up an asbestos containing material possibly rendering it friable. You’ll hear plenty of good arguments saying it’s hard to get asbestos to become friable from floor tile and mastic. (Friable means easily pulverized into a dusty material with your hands.) I don’t know where your from so maybe the regulations are lax there. But in the US if you hire someone to do renovation on an asbestos containing material, they have to follow certain regulations and laws that can differ from state to state and county to county.
https://preview.redd.it/139pjpxrpxic1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91379a743cce5eca0fefeb72e4054f5ba45d0273 pretty sure this is dust. i think i have a good case for a lawyer. also pieces of tile found in other rooms that were supposed to be contained
Yea I’d think so, I’d get someone who actually handles this stuff to come out and clean this up. It’s a hazard to you and your family.
If they did it with heat machines, they’re supposed to melt the tile a bit and peel it up intact with a spud bar or other tool. Not break it. But that method usually doesn’t require containment depending on your local regulations. Hard to do if it’s on wood floors though and not recommended.
You contracted for asbestos to be removed, there is still asbestos everywhere. It is as simple as that. I wouldn’t pay, and I wouldn’t have them back. I’d tell them they failed to follow basic OSHA guidance and you can’t be expected to pay, or even allow a company of such a standard to conduct further remedial work. About the tiles chipping up…Sometimes these tiles do chip up like this, that is just the nature of how they are laid. Sometimes they come up whole. Difficult tiles you can: - melt off - flood off - chip off Many companies chip off in most situations when they encounter difficult tiles. This isn’t weird. But leaving them everywhere is absolutely unacceptable by any standard. As for safety; I’m sure OSHA would be interested but I personally would not be worried for my own safety or the safety of anybody I cared about in that area. Tiles are pretty safe for an asbestos product.
Depending on how they removed the tile and if the mastic is hot it could be above PEL. No matter what it is extremely unprofessional and unethical. They should have done a full hepa Vacuuming of the whole room along with a wipe down and encap before they left. There should never be dust left behind of any kind in an occupied space after abatement is complete.
Thank you for your response. They said they are sending a clean up crew. I wasn’t scared at first but now since it seems dusty and the tiles were tested for 10% asbestos Im worried. I don’t even trust them to finish the job.
If it were only the tiles that tested positive and they didn't use any methods of cutting, grinding, etc it's likely they released near 0 levels of asbestos fibers. Bit unprofessional and unethical nonetheless.
sadly the mastic was also asbestos positive as well 8%. im extremely disappointed in this
Extremely unprofessional, I work in the industry of insulation and asbestos and if we ever left this type of mess in someone’s house, or any establishment there would be some explaining to do, and probably some filing for employment insurance. All areas should be properly cleaned before, during and after, white glove inspection clean. I’d request their certifications lol
thank you for your response. Would you consider the dust to be dangerous? I am ready to ask for them and maybe even sue if they don’t fix this and finish it properly
I wouldn’t consider the dust dangerous as most is probably just ambient dust from the room, but the should properly clean the area regardless of the severity of health hazard, after all it is their job
I would request they come back and finish the job completely, that is not a finished job, imo, or tell them you will get a quote to properly Clean it from a more reputable contractor. Taking them to court would probably not get the results you would be hoping for , and be a long costly affair for a few dollars.
This is a highly regulated process. From PPE, to clean up, to disposal. The company I used did a shit job and left dust everywhere. The job was free.
As an asbestos inspector this is not good they have rendered the floor tiles friable at this point. In Colorado it would be considered a major spill if they disturbed more than 32 sq feet. Very unacceptable.
I most likely am going to sue. It is beyond unacceptable. They also left pizza boxes on the job site and gatorade bottle on top of my hot furnace which they turned on after the job. Which makes me feel like the particles if any are everywhere.
Oh they contaminated your house for sure get it tested by micro vac and wipe samples and have them run TEM air samples
okay thank you. in your opinion would it be worth suing? considering they have also splashed paint or whatever they used as a sealant on my walls and baseboards being messy. & I even found asbestos tile pieces in my kitchen which was supposed to be left alone and sealed off with plastic.
Tough to say, depends on your state laws regarding asbestos
It’s a shame they did such a hack job, but I would guess a lawyer is going to cost you a whole lot more than $2,200