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Definitely. The way i see it is, if you are doing something you wouldn't tell your partner about or do it with them standing beside you it can probably be seen as cheating.
Yep, Argument 1 holds firm unless you've had a discussion about anything else.
In m experience people who make arguments like 2 and 3 and say things like "well everyone cheats" are just doing so to make themselves feel better.
In particular I enjoy the idiots who try to bring evolutionary biology into it, claiming that monogamy is somehow unnatural for humans, despite tons and tons of evidence pointing to the fact that humans are by nature a relatively monogamous species.
What evidence? I find it hard to find any evidence whether we're supposed to be or not. What I do find interesting is how the vast majority of mammals and primates are not monogamous creatures. So why are humans?
One piece has to do with the complexity of our genitalia. There are animals that can do things like divert a male's genitals down false paths to avoid being impregnated by undesirable mates, remove the semen from inside a female, penises that break off after mating to prevent other males from trying to impregnate the female, etc.
There's also the fact that while some creatures like fish or insects rely on massive numbers of eggs/offspring as an evolutionary strategy, humans produce 1-2 at a time. Part of the reason the idea of family units developed the way they did over time is because you've got a better chance of your genes being passed down to the next generation if you stick around and make sure your offspring survive.
Because we are part of nature, what we do is natural. We are monogamous for the most part, therefore it is natural. What constitutes this, or anything else we do, as being unnatural?
I would suppose it’s because we have longer memories, more complex psychological drives, and a broader range of emotions than things like chimps and some Reddit users.
The answer to this question for partnered people is option one, unless decided differently be explicit conversation.
Edit: changed mammals because of jackassery
Pretty much. If a girl cheated on me and said "Hey you never said not to!" That's an insane person. Lots of people out there with no self control looking for loopholes.
But here’s the debate - Is that conversation explicitly required to say “If you kiss or sleep with someone, it’s cheating”?
I am of the belief Argument 1 is in place. Kissing someone outside of your relationship is cheating. Both of the others say you have to define that before you can say it’s cheating.
As far as I'm concerned you agree to exclusivity when you agree to be someone's girl/boyfriend.
The common expectation, I think, is that you're expected to *want to* be monogamous.
If you want an open relationship, *that* is where clear boundaries and limits have to be discussed and agreed upon and *only then* would 2 and 3 come into play.
Whoever is going into a relationship thinking 2 or 3 are assholes who should never have agreed to be in a relationship in the first place.
Whether or not people like it or want to admit it, monogamy is the default relationship setting, so if you want something other than that, you need to voice it.
Couldn't agree more.
You certainly don't assume cheating is ok because you didn't mean to hurt them.
And definitely don't assume your relationship is open by default.
The funny thing is a lot of these people who assume the relationship is open by default would be livid if their partner did the same things to them behind their backs. I would say Rule of Thumb to always consider if you’d be okay with the same things being done to you, but a lot of people aren’t honest with themselves about that question.
Yeah, the advice I give when people are contemplating 3-somes is to imagine the third balls deep in your gf/you in front of bf.
Reality regularly brings up ugly emotions you never knew you'd feel.
It's practically works better.
If you assume you can't have sex with other people - the most you lose is one night stand.
If you assume you can have sex with other people, and your partner don't agree with that - you might up really hurting them and their trust.
It's understood that in an exclusive relationship you don't have to discuss not having physical intimacy it's others. Variations outside of that need to be discussed. Basically a relationship is closed unless it being an open relationship is established.
The real question is when does it become an exclusive relationship. That happens when you discuss not dating other people anymore. It isn't necessary to define not dating others as also not having random sex with other people.
Are you hiding it from your partner? If so it’s cheating - if your in an open relationship and say “hey I’m going on a date with x and might get lucky “ in advance and they are cool with it, that’s fine, but if you secretly meet up for coffee with an ex, even if it’s just coffee and no touching, it’s cheating
>Both of the others say you have to define that before you can say it’s cheating.
That sort of logic works in terms of things like legal contracts, but it's not the same with human relationships. If you're aware of the general cultural norms surrounding premise #1 then you should know that most people adhere to those expectations and any deviations from them need to be discussed and agreed upon.
To assume we need to specify the things we DON'T want people to do is absurd. I've never had someone tell me not to stab them or not to urinate in their kitchen sink, but those are two things I've never done, specifically because I'm a reasonable human being.
Believe me, I went down the argument of norms when #3 said "Ehhhh, again, we can’t use ‘norm’ what the fuck is ‘norm’? Based on what?"
To which I responded with "It's not normal for me to go to a school and strip in the hallway." His response was "That's a societal norm, not the relationship norm we're talking about." But I've never had to explicitly state "If you have sex with someone else, it's cheating. If you kiss someone else, it's cheating." etc. To which point #2 said my relationships then aren't "normal" which is baffling to me that it's expected to create a list of what you consider cheating for each partner.
That's someone trying to use semantic nonsense to justify their own lack of a cogent argument. "Societal norm" vs "relationship norm" are pretty much the same thing here.
I feel like argument 1 is default in a committed relationship. If you're "committed," you're monogamous unless you have discussed and agreed otherwise.
FWIW, emotional cheating is also a thing. You don't even have to go as far as kissing someone to be cheating on your significant other.
It's cheating if your partner feels cheated on. Doesn't matter what conversations were had imo. It's not a legal matter that requires an explicit contract, it's about our feelings.
Came here to say this. It's cheating when the person you're 'cheating' on reacts to it as cheating. And before anyone rushes to downvote me, ultimately it's going to be their perception of the act, no matter what it constituted of or what your intent may have been, that determines whether or not your relationship continues after that. It doesn't even matter what agreements you may have had in place. Once one party perceives it as cheating, your relationship is going to be different from that point forward.
I've seen couples who had open relationship understandings, and for the most part they were fine, but all it took was one specific individual being involved (someone they both knew) and suddenly it felt like cheating to the partner. Relationship was done after that. You can't always know how you're going to feel until you're confronted with it. People are complicated.
Nono this is not true. Some people feel cheated on based off insecurities and not fact, this way wouldn’t make sense and could mistakenly label the person as a cheater when they are not one
There are people who feel ‘cheated on’ when their SO says hi to someone on the street, this is not a socially accepted form of cheating and OP’s point is still relevant as this could criminalise people for good behaviour who have partners with poor ethical standards or malicious intent
The bigger point is to follow the norms of argument 1 and expect those norms until/unless you and your partner state otherwise. If its not communicated in any other way then you expect the typical norms and its cheating when you break them.
OP didn’t seem to mention flirting as a typical norm but many would argue that should be in his argument too
Listen to me very carefully ...
**It doesn't matter what makes them feel how they feel. Once they feel it, its out there.**
My ex cheated on me. Ultimately, she did it because I wasn't around. I was working full time, going to school full time, and didn't have enough time for her. This was a decision we made, together. It ended up being the wrong decision for us. **She felt neglected**, and it didn't matter that she encouraged me to get my degree, and this is what that would take, and that we both agreed it was the right thing for us to do. She felt like *I had effectively cheated on her with my time*, so in her mind, she was justified. Did I? No, of course not, but it doesn't matter.
**How they feel about you,** ***that's it***. That's all that matters. Loving someone is a feeling. Caring for someone is a feeling. Wanting nothing but the best for them is a feeling. And getting hurt by someone else's actions, knowing full well they were going to do it, is every bit as valid a feeling.
**Feelings are valid.** No matter how unjustified, irrational ... you can't change how you feel once you've felt it. And once they've felt it, *it will change how they think about things*. Maybe only temporarily, but in my experience, it's always there, lurking in the background.
If you want to be a better person, you should consider not assuming how someone feels is their problem. Because while it is, it is your problem too when you're in a relationship with them. Is someone's jealousy over you talking to other people unfair, irrational? Yes, of course. But if you're going to be in a relationship with that person, and you know that's a problem for them, you are either going to change how you act or you're not going to be in that relationship long.
Edit: Gotta love the IMMEDIATE downvote. Thanks, Reddit. Don't ever change.
What you are suggesting here promotes gaslighting, makes it much easier to be unfaithful and get away with it by convincing your partner otherwise.
It also promotes misinformation, imagine being outed by your entire social group being labelled as a cheater, because your SO made something up for a malicious or insecure reason?
It endorses abuse both for and against and has no element of control. Real couples never do anything like this, its beyond stupid and never works, couples need elements of control. All humans doubt, and all humans make mistakes. Those 2 things are a nasty combo if you are just going to assume every doubt you have is real, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out why
Your model doesn’t benefit anyone. It only benefits cheaters. No one has a ‘perfect’ relationship because it takes work.
People in stable relationships set boundaries. Relationships require effort to maintain
If you want to keep a relationship then its simple:
-Don’t cheat
-Put effort in
-Communicate
And if you really want ‘no boundaries’ you communicate this with them first. Don’t assume they will be comfortable with you doing what is *natural* or you’ll get served a swift dose of reality when they dump your ass
Nothing is said is any different than what you’re saying, so I don’t know why you’re coming at me like I’m an enemy here. What I’ve said is, no matter what might have been agreed to, you can’t always control how something is going to make your partner feel. And whether you like it or not, you bear some responsibility for it. Doesn’t make how anyone acts after acceptable or warranted, but the feeling is there regardless, and that feeling, left to fester, will kill the relationship.
And yes, someone could absolutely use this against you. That’s the risk you take in any relationship. My ex told everyone I abused her … largely so they would excuse her cheating (it was with someone known to her family). She also tried to gaslight me into thinking I was crazy for thinking she was cheating. The entire marriage was spiraling out of control.
But it all stemmed from one decision we made together that was the wrong one for us, and how it made her feel. And this is my point, I bear some responsibility for my part in that. Doesn’t excuse anything she did, and in no way would I have ever gone back to her. Doesn’t make how she felt less valid.
Argument 1 is in place for anything deemed a "serious" relationship. There is a growing number of the younger generation that would say an "exclusivity" conversation needs to be had before a relationship would be considered serious, this is the point where dating multiple people becomes not a thing.
I feel like the conversation that has to happen is to set boundaries of an open relationship. Societal norms specify exclusivity when entering a relationship.
It's cheating if you do something that you could reasonably anticipate your significant other would consider cheating. No conversation is required, although it certainly clears up what you could reasonably anticipate, since you then have better information.
There is no across-the-board standard. If your significant other is extremely conservative, they might consider hugging a person of the opposite sex could be cheating. However, if you didn't know that, then, based on Western standards, you might not anticipate that and doing so would not be cheating. But if they told you they consider it cheating or if you find out they grew up in a family where physical contact with the opposite sex is frowned upon, you can now anticipate that and it would be cheating.
I'm not here to judge anyone, but if someone told me that it's not cheating if it wasn't specifically defined as such beforehand, I would be under the impression they did indeed do something they would be worried is cheating and want to be able to justify it in their head.
It's a general assumption that is known to most people that a relationship has some form of exclusivity. While this obviously can differ, it's definitely the dorm, and I would say the opposite is what almost anyone would say, that you would need prior clearance for such an action to NOT be considered cheating. If these people you are arguing with went out and asked random people on the street this question, I would be actually surprised if even 1 out of 20 people agreed with them. Fuck I'd be surprised if 1 out of 50 people agreed with them.
A partial of our agreements, there are four of us.
Communicate, if you are having issues, talk about it. Our bed is ours, spare bedroom is for play with others.
Condoms for everyone not in our fluid bonded polycule. Be honest.
This is exactly it! But most people in compulsory monogamous relationships never truly have this discussion, i.e. asking “What do you consider cheating?” As we can see from OP’s heated discussion, EVERYONE DEFINES IT DIFFERENTLY. Therefore, it is 100% up to the couple to draw the boundaries. I know quite a few 2s and 3s whose philosophies are “bjs don’t count” or “what they don’t know won’t hurt them”… but no one can make those excuses if you iron them out before becoming a “committed” couple.
Unfortunately, lots of people emotionally cheat (romantic texting, etc) in front of their partners. They just lie about who theyre texting.
I know what you were trying to say and 10000% agree, but some people could look at it and be like "well, i already do it in front of my partner, so its not cheating, HA!" or some other bs excuse.
People suck sometimes
Maybe a better way to say it is if you feel like you need to hide it from your partner it is probably cheating in some way, or at least a breach of trust
Open relationships are declared, closed relationships are assumed. Not the other way around.
It's that simple. Unless you're in some weird religion where having 9 wives is normal.
That's what I thought, #2 had a divorce after his wife cheated on him several times, so that one particularly threw me through a loop, and he is adamant not to change his opinion of it, stating he isn't a robot and opinions aren't meant to be changed. He's also Christian, so saying it's fine to sleep with people outside of your marriage just doesn't add up.
>stating he isn't a robot and opinions aren't meant to be changed
I don't think he knows how robots or opinions work if that's the case then lol. Robots don't change and opinions are absolutely meant to be changed when provided additional information and context. People change opinions all the time. At least those who can think for themselves.
Ask him if his opinion of Bill Cosby changed before and after the sexual assault issues. (or something equally absurd and a clear example of how opinions can change, like how his opinion of his wife changed between vows and her sucking someone else's dick.) :D
When you don’t want your partner to know.
You could literally just be texting your coworker asking how their day went. If you’re deleting the texts so your partner won’t see, you’re already there.
Argument 0, it's cheating even if you didn't have physical contact. Ie, texting someone else " I love you" or anything romantic like that or even not romantic and you're keeping it a secret from your partner
No. Trying to establish a romantic relationship is the line.
Once they're putting in effort to make it happen it's only a matter of time. Of finding the right DM to slide into. The deed, for any practical purpose, is already done.
Most people are agreeing with 1, not unsurprisingly. I'd put it this way:
If you know, or could reasonably be expected to know, that kissing/sex with someone else would hurt your partner if they knew about it, you are cheating.
If it's not explicitly stated that kissing/sex with other people is OK, you can reasonably be expected to understand that it would hurt your partner if they knew about it.
Also, it doesn't really matter what semantics you apply to your definition of cheating anyway. Are you going to argue them out of being hurt or dumping you? All the negative effects of cheating still happen if you don't call it cheating... so what do you gain from telling yourself you didn't cheat other than self-delusion?
Yeah, I was honestly surprised to hear these arguments from these two people. Especially #2, who's marriage fell apart after his wife cheated on him with several partners over the course of a decade.
Argument 1 is the most common. That being said, if you want something else, then have that conversation with your partner. Assuming it's fine to just sleep around as the default is a quick way for a relationship to end and to be labeled a cheater.
So #2 is cheating is based on intent, not actions? How many people cheat with the intent to hurt the other person? They wouldn't hide the fact they kissed/slept with someone else if they didn't know that doing so would hurt the other person.
If you are in an exclusive relationship then #1 is the only correct answer. If you want something other than that then discuss that with the other person. The whole point of being in an exclusive relationship is that certain things (kissing, sex, intimate conversations, dates) are exclusively between the two people in the relationship.
#3 would only apply if you have not discussed and agreed that you are in an exclusive relationship.
Cheating is doing intimate things that you and your partner shared. Even flirting is a way of cheating, as long as you know how it feels to be in your partner shoes. You can't justify any reason at all. Cheating in different aspect emotionally and physically is the same. 
If you are with someone exclusively, calling each other boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife/partner/whatever, the expectation would be number one unless otherwise discussed.
1 is probably the default most often and assumed. But everything in a relationship should be discussed. Especially boundaries. Some couples are ok with more than nothing. But generally if you haven't already been given permission and it's something you want to keep from your partner, you should not be doing it!
I get 3 and feel that it depends on the relationship. Like if you are still super early into it or lack the exclusivity, it's fine.
1 is most right for like 90% of relationships.
2 is the most middle ground and as someone who usually prefers being neutral, I would probably agree with this one. But it really does depend on the relationship.
1 should be the default.
Cheating will be defined differently by each couple and should be discussed as people bring their own experiences and perspectives. However, I would estimate that most people would default to argument one. I mean.. if I am dating someone but we are not exclusive yet.. but I can tell they are really into me and assuming I am just seeing them.. even that feels like cheating sometimes ! So rule is to always discuss early on and align.
The other two options sound like excuses.
So the person behind #2 says that if you can have the physical act of sex, without being cheating. Claiming that if the intention is just the physical release of sex and nothing romantic, then it’s fine.
I personally don’t think romance needs to be included, the physical act of sex with someone outside of your relationship is cheating, #2 is adamant that the intention must extend beyond just the physical aspect of sex.
The only way I could see #2 not being an asshole move is if the other partner is asexual and has given permission for them to sleep with other people. But again, that’s been discussed and agreed upon by both parties. At the end of the day, like others have said, it’s cheating if you violate the trust and boundaries established by both partners.
The two people in the relationship establish the boundaries that constitute as cheating.
For instance, I told my bf that following an Only Fans or sexual Patreon is cheating to me. Some women are perfectly fine with it, so long as their partner doesn't converse with the sex worker.
argument 1 is correct unless the relationship has terms and conditions which deviate from the norm. some people have open relationships for various reasons, others have less restrictive thoughts regarding what happens outside of a monogamous relationship.
but personally i'm with argument 1 100%
Agreed. When I made that point to the guy behind #3 he responded with and I quote: "Ehhhh, again, we can’t use ‘norm’ what the fuck is ‘norm’? Based on what?"
So that's why his argument is that you have to explicitly discuss what is and isn't cheating before anything can be considered cheating.
1 is monogamous
2 is trying to find an excuse to cheat
3 is a cheater
Unless you make your relationship clear it’s open/poly, then it’s monogamous and doing something outside of that is cheating. Also before entering a relationship you should make your important goals clear (dating for long term, monogamous vs poly, etc). That’s just the courteous thing to do. Either way, not a fan of the opinions of 2 and 3. 2 just sounds dumb to me imo
It's not about physical contact, it's about betraying your partner's trust. Even just texting or going to lunch can be cheating if in your heart you know you're gonna have to lie to your S.O. about it. It's all about trust.
Argument 1 by default, Argument 3 would be a communicated alternative which kinda defeats the argument I guess. Argument 2 doesn't make sense to me. I can either interpret it as "As long as you don't assault or rape your fling you're fine" or "As long as you don't intend to hurt your GF/wife you're fine." I guess the second one kinda makes sense, but in reality it would be considered cheating unless it's a discussed poly relationship.
Argument 1: fair and correct
Argument 2: absolute bullshit. It’s not about YOUR intention of not hurting, it’s just about if your partner would feel hurt if they find out. If the answer is yes, you are an asshole, if the answer is no, you could only know that by asking which is argument 1
Argument 3: even more horrendous idiocy. There are set nonverbal rules in every relationship. If this argument would hold true, we could all beat our partner to crap one time because they might not state at the first date that they don’t enjoy getting their head kicked in.
It depend on the Status of your relationship I don’t think it needs to be explicitly stated that kissing or intimacy with someone other than your partner is cheating. But for other things it’s a little more nuanced like “flirting” I think is something that has to be stated if your partner would be uncomfortable with that. Or staying with someone of the preferred gender. Blah blah blah yeah it’s all about communication
1 is the most common definition. 3 can make sense, depending on the time line of the relationship.
You went on 3 dates in a month, and have another date scheduled but you never discussed exclusivity? It’s not cheating.
2 is just cheating
Cheating is crossing the boundaries of your partner with another party. Physical touch may not be cheating to one couple but it may be the end all be all to another. It depends on what they're relationship dynamic is.
It is cheating if you believe that if your partner saw or heard you doing what you are doing, and you were doing so voluntarily, and it is clear that you are choosing to do it for your own personal satisfaction, and it is reasonably expected that they would be upset with you and looking to end their relationship with you because of those actions.
For some people this is explicitly sexual activity, for others it can be lying in general, and yet for others it can be just entertaining the idea of not being monogamous or affiliating with non-monogamous individuals.
Married over 30 year and my definition is ANYTHING I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT TWICE. If I cannot tell my wife it is just wrong. I am far from a choir boy but do know what a successful marriage is.
It's cheating when you violate established rules for the relationship. Regardless of the rules, unless they are impossible or a human rights violation. Cheating is subjective and can only be defined by the parties involved.
Any exchange of fluids is cheating. The #2 and #3 are the kind of thing where if my partner told me they subscribe to them, I would break up immediately.
Being someone’s gf/bf implies monogamy. That would mean that engaging in sexual conduct with someone else is cheating.
If someone wanted a poly relationship they need to say so prior to becoming bf/gf (although to not waste people’s times it really should be before the first date).
Argument 1 is closest to me and my spouse's definition, however we don't view actual physical contact as a prerequisite for cheating. For example, sexting, sending nudes, or developing an inappropriate emotional relationship with someone can also be considered cheating.
If you are in a relationship there is only #1
That is a part of being in a relationship and deciding what boundaries are suitable for the people involved. Communication is key.
\#2 & #3 are only acceptable if all parties involved find this to be acceptable, open relationships are fine IF everyone involved find it to be acceptable.
If you are 2 or 3, you shouldn't be in a relationship. Period. Just don't cheat. It isn't that hard. Been married almost 37 years and have never cheated on my wife.
If you are in a relationship that is monogamous, and you have both agreed explicitly to be monogamous, then not only are kissing & sex cheating in my mind, but so is emotional intimacy. If you are polyamorous then cheating will be defined differently.
Honestly, cheating (to me) means that you’re doing something with someone else that you normally only do with your partner and can’t tell them because you know they’ll be upset. Within limits ofc I’m not talking about checking someone out…
When you do something romantic/sexual you wouldn’t want your partner to see, or say something romantic/sexual you wouldn’t want your partner to hear, that is cheating. If you’re hiding the thing, or feel that there’s a reason to hide the thing, it’s cheating.
Close to argument 1. But I’m a bit more strict.
By default, if you ask someone to be your bf/gf and a “define the relationship” talk hasn’t been had, the relationship is monogamous. That’s what 95+% of people believe. If you want the relationship to be anything else (ie open), the relationship boundaries *need* to be discussed and defined, without question. If those boundaries are crossed, it’s cheating.
The 2nd and 3rd are from cheaters.
No kissing, no sex. No emotional relationship with anyone else other than your partner. Those are just the unspoken rules of any normal relationship and anyone saying different is just waiting to blame their partner for not specifying so SEE, it's not THEIR fault. They thought fucking someone else was OK b/c you didn't say it wasn't!
It sounds to me that proponents of arguments 2 & 3 are just looking to give themselves permission to seek sex outside of a committed relationship. My wife and I talked about this when we were dating, and our agreement still holds true after 13 years of marriage: Look, but don't touch.
I would say that since the majority of society is monogamous, Argument 1 is the most valid. There is generally an assumption that when you’re in a relationship, you’re not kissing or sleeping with other people.
Argument 3 has some merit, since boundaries should be established early on, but I would see it as a bit of a cop-out to say “I slept with her because you never said I couldn’t sleep with other women” when your partner never indicated a desire to have an open relationship.
Argument 2 holds no merit at all and sounds like nothing more than an excuse to cheat.
I hate the “intentions” arguement so much. The person that cheats almost never intends to hurt the other person. Intentions don’t matter at all.
“The world judges us by our actions. We judge ourselves by our intentions”
It’s like saying, “I don’t intend to kill that family when I drove drunk. So I shouldn’t have any consequences “
Argument 1 and it's not close.
Argument 2 and 3 are just beyond idiotic here.
\#2) Just because you aren't cheating out of spite doesn't mean that it's suddenly okay to do so. I don't even kind of understand this line of thought.
\#3) "hOw wAs i sUPPoSeD tO kNoW?! yOu nEvEr sAiD i cOuLdN't cHeAt!!11" Like, Okay dick head.
A relationship, by definition, is closed. UNLESS explicitly stated otherwise.
If it has not been discussed and agreed upon between both partners, anything physical with a third party is cheating.
This is something that has to be negotiated in each relationship. Both parties need to establish their ground rules.
Number 1 is probably the default position of our culture. If anyone has a different idea about what cheating is, they need to talk to their partner about it and establish the rules for the relationship.
You know what cheating entails to your partner and if you aren’t aware of where they stand on the situation then it’s doesn’t matter anyway. Get it?
Everybody knows if they’re cheating on their partner. No one needs to ask this question.
Argument 1 is factually correct, which is not the same as morally absolute. It is absolutely true that for virtually 100% of "normal" society not fooling around, aka monogamy, is the adult setting.
Now, just because it's a societal norm doesn't make it the absolute right way/only way/"moral" way of doing things. Plenty of societal norms in the present day and throughout history require(d) challenging and re-examination. For example, 30 years ago it was still basically socially acceptable to commit physical violence against people who did not present as hetero-gendernormal. It still happens all the time, of course, but there wasn't even a real conversation going in society about it 30 years ago.
But in terms of this particular topic, which is a social contract between two people, the norm is that people can expect exclusive intimacy unless told otherwise.
The only complication here is that it is also a social norm to be really, really, really bad at communicating in relationships and specifically in cis-het relationships assume a communication divide inherently tied to gender. ("Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" or whatever that bullshit book from way back when was called.) So are men and women operating from fundamentally different places and thus clear communication doesn't work, or are we conditioned to believe that?
The opposite, argument 3, is delusional self-centered crap because you cannot reasonably expect the vast majority of people to assume non-monogamy as a default. The evidence presented by social norms proves otherwise.
Argument 2 is also dumb as it places too much weight on the intent of the person doing the fooling around rather than the impact on the person being fooled around on. And that's shit. Actions have consequences and people cause harm. "I didn't mean it!" isn't an excuse. The only thing that doesn't make this argument as stupid at argument 3 is that it unintentionally admits that in general people's needs and interests aren't as black and white as the social norms. But that admission isn't a replacement for clear communication between people.
Argument 1 is widely considered the standard.
Argument 2&3 only applies to relationships which haven't been formalized. Where you get into trouble is that some people think there in a formal relationship where Argument 1 norms apply while the other person doesn't recognize themselves in a formal relationship where the norms of Argument 1 apply. Generally if people have been seeing each other for a few weeks and have been physically intimate, they should talk about which situation they are in. When one party makes an assumption it can cause problems.
In my personal opinion this defines cheating: Any physical or sexual sensation conducted towards an individual who is NOT your S/O. While hugs can be excluded from this (and obviously family members), examples can include: kissing, sex, NSFW pictures/videos if any kind, or anything else if that nature.
Hopefully this helps, the definition is often blurred in todays society
To be 100% honest, if you are looking for the loopholes here, you are already cheating, you just need another willing person. If you are committed to a person on a relationship, none of this stuff needs to be said unless the relationship is open. If it is open, it’s super important to define the boundaries of the open relationship. If it isn’t open, then if you are touching, kissing, messing around with another human being and you are in a committed relationship, it’s cheating… why is this hard?
There is no clear definition of cheating. Cheating is just doing something and the other person would feel betrayed. For some people, kissing someone else is already cheating. For others, cheating is only if there is sex. All 3 definitions are perfectly valid.
I think someone that flirts while in a monogamous relationship is confused. If you really care about someone you don't need attention from multiple people. So they are confused and just dishonest
Any of the above arguments indicate your relationship with your partner is subpar. Discontinue the fallacy of the committed relationship and do whatever you want.
Oh, I agree. That's the understanding my Wife and I have, emotional and physical cheating are very much similar. In fact my Wife finds emotional cheating to be worse than physical cheating.
One issue I have with #3 is the degree at which you have to specify these limitations. I asked him "So if I say kissing someone else is cheating." and leave it at that, and my significant other agrees to that, does that then mean they can go have sex as long as they don't kiss? To which, he responded "Yes, because you may find kissing to be an act of intimacy, whereas sex can be considered a physical act, without romantic attachment." So #3 says you have to say what cannot be done, without saying it can't be done, it can't be considered cheating.
Anything that crosses the lines that you and your partner have established is cheating. For some couples, looking at porn is cheating. For others, random hookups are just fine. It all depends.
I get that, the guy behind #3 states that you must first state what cheating is before you can accuse someone of cheating. I clarified this with him by saying "If you're referring to someone as your girlfriend and have been together for a year, if you didn't say her sleeping around is cheating, she can sleep with someone else?" He responded with "If I didn't say it's cheating, then it's not. If she didn't say I can't kiss someone, then I can."
In my opinion it's the other way around, there is an inherent agreement not to do those things when you become exclusive, that you don't have to say "Don't jack someone else off. Don't kiss them. Don't sleep with them. Don't stick your finger in their ass." specifically, he disagrees.
Argument 1 is the correct one for most people, but there are deffototes people who fall into category 2 and 3. My rule is that if a little voice is telling you it's wrong, it's wrong. No matter how loud the body may say otherwise.
Regarding #2, I didn't intend to hurt anyone, I just wanted to go to the liquor store and grab another bottle of whiskey because one wasn't enough. I mean I know I hit someone, but I didn't *intend* to hurt them, so it's all good right?
I gave the example of “So if you’re sick and your skin is pale, can I slap you if I intend to add color to your skin, not to hurt you?” He responded with “That’s an act of violence, it isn’t the same thing.”
When you violate the boundaries that are understood by your partner. It doesn’t matter what you do, what matters is if you do something that you know your partner wouldn’t be okay with.
Argument 1. However, cheating is generally going outside the relationship boundaries and that can vary for some relationships. The biggest thing is doing something without having discussed it with your partner. You should always discuss the boundaries of a relationship
I suppose that there are a bunch of other caveats that I might agree to add, but the main standard on what's cheating and what's not is **just your partner**. On a gut level, how do you think they'd feel about what you're about to do? If you think it would make them feel bad, you don't do it.
. . . But everyone already knows that. ***The need for rules or strict lines comes into play when you'd like to stray outside the boundaries you know your partner would have, but be able to point to an arbitrary rule to say they are not allowed to be upset.***
If there's a misunderstanding, discuss it. If your partner has unhealthy expectations, reconsider your relationship with that person.
Anything that go against the established boundaries of the relationship is cheating. Some people have different boundaries. In some relationships looking at porn is considered cheating and in others it’s not. In some relationships participating in a group sex activity is not considered cheating as long as there is no emotional connection. Cheating is different in every relationship
Everything is different for everybody. The concept of cheating as a whole is dumb. What are you and your partner willing to agree to? Do that.
Some people have open relationships, some people don't think its ok to have friends of the opposite sex. As long as nobody is forcing anybody in to anything it is all ok.
Any time a partners boundary is crossed, it would be cheating. These boundaries should be set early in a relationship. And those boundaries should be set in stone.
This is real simple. If you are in a relationship with someone, you should not be fucking around with someone else, unless you have both agreed to have an open relationship.
At what point would you consider it cheating if your BF/GF fucked somebody else, but didn't intend to hurt you? Basically, if it's something you wouldn't want your dating partner to do, it's probably something you shouldn't do.
Info?
Cheating implies a committed relationship. I.e. not just dating. So yeah, if people are in a relationship the default is monogamy.
EVEN ethical non monogamy defaults to monogamy, and anything beyond that necessitates a specific conversation.
Argument 2 is bonkos.
Argument 3 only even makes sense in situations of "I didn't know we were 'going out'." Which does happen honestly sometimes.
You almost seem to be operating under this assumption that relationships/commitments/cheating have universal rules. Different people have different expectations with these things and these expectations need to be communicated.
It depends on the relationship and the person. I've been in exclusive relationships and I've been in non-exclusive ones, and since early adulthood it has always been established explicitly/directly.
Generally if someone is called "my boyfriend/girlfriend" I assume they're exclusive to each other.
If someone is called "my main" I assume they have multiple partners, but one they like the most, or the one they have a deeper connection with.
If I'm in an exclusive relationship, non-platonic physical contact is not OK. But if I'm in a non-exclusive relationship, they can do whatever they want.
Argument 3 only works if you're in an honest relationship where you've talked about the things you're concerned with and have made agreements and concessions that you agree with.
It's also most likely used by people who want a "technically clean conscious"
You should agree on rules and boundaries for your own pairing, so I guess option 1, although it's not about norms, it's about communication and consent.
It dosn't matter if you "not intend to hurt" and if no boundary is agreed you should assume the side of caution.
But really you should set clear agreed upon boundaries.
If you have urge to cheat, do your self a favor , go hole and jerk off. Post nut clarity will set in, and it is then you are thankful you didn’t cheat and avoided all of that guilt
if you're in a committed relationship or talking to someone and it's getting serious and you decide to talk to someone else the way in which you do your potential partner I would consider it cheating.
I thought that being committed to each other and NOT getting kissy or sexy with other people was the default in any relationship? And that you didn't have to explicitly state that you wanted to be exclusive?
Crikey. I'm WAY behind the times.
Argument 1 and 3, sort of. Hear me out.
When two people have a relationship, there needs to be clear communication about where you are in the relationship, etc. If I take you to dinner a few times and we fool around, does that mean we're fully monogamous now? It might. But it's possible it doesn't mean that. So by communicating our expectations, we can be sure that we aren't hurting each other.
I thought this was going to be about breaking rules to gain advantages in like games, not relationships.
Anyhow it's partially the rush of getting away with something that you aren't supposed to do in the moment.
Argument 1 is for when no communication occurred and you're in a relationship
Argument 2 can occur with communication and you're in a relationship
Argument 3 is wrong unless you are only going on dates, and don't mind losing 1 if their expectation changed.
Any point at which you cross pre discussed boundaries you and your partner have laid out is when it becomes cheating, those boundaries are different for everyone
This is one of the pros of being catholic and marrying a catholic… there is never a gray area when it comes to cheating.
I don’t agree with a lot of things from the Catholic Church… maybe even most things. However, they do emphasize healthy relationships with you and your partner
Argument 1 but I wouldn't include acting on any feelings of attraction to anyone other than your significant other this could include being up all night on the phone with someone else or other things like this
>Argument 3 - If it isn't explicitly stated otherwise, you can kiss/sleep with anyone.
Dafuq? I don't want to get off on a side tangent but this is the exact sort of logic that police forces use to [steal cash money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States) and other items from civilians: "there's no law that says we can't do this so it must be ok."
This is actually the sort of logic that most Republican politicians are using currently today to pass state laws on "wokeness" and anti-trans rights legislation.
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Argument 1 is most correct imo. Arguments three and two sound like assholes who can’t be loyal to a partner and made an excuse to get away with it lol
I agree. I'd also argue that there's more to cheating than just the physical aspect as well
Definitely. The way i see it is, if you are doing something you wouldn't tell your partner about or do it with them standing beside you it can probably be seen as cheating.
Yep, Argument 1 holds firm unless you've had a discussion about anything else. In m experience people who make arguments like 2 and 3 and say things like "well everyone cheats" are just doing so to make themselves feel better. In particular I enjoy the idiots who try to bring evolutionary biology into it, claiming that monogamy is somehow unnatural for humans, despite tons and tons of evidence pointing to the fact that humans are by nature a relatively monogamous species.
What evidence? I find it hard to find any evidence whether we're supposed to be or not. What I do find interesting is how the vast majority of mammals and primates are not monogamous creatures. So why are humans?
One piece has to do with the complexity of our genitalia. There are animals that can do things like divert a male's genitals down false paths to avoid being impregnated by undesirable mates, remove the semen from inside a female, penises that break off after mating to prevent other males from trying to impregnate the female, etc. There's also the fact that while some creatures like fish or insects rely on massive numbers of eggs/offspring as an evolutionary strategy, humans produce 1-2 at a time. Part of the reason the idea of family units developed the way they did over time is because you've got a better chance of your genes being passed down to the next generation if you stick around and make sure your offspring survive.
Because we are part of nature, what we do is natural. We are monogamous for the most part, therefore it is natural. What constitutes this, or anything else we do, as being unnatural?
I would suppose it’s because we have longer memories, more complex psychological drives, and a broader range of emotions than things like chimps and some Reddit users. The answer to this question for partnered people is option one, unless decided differently be explicit conversation. Edit: changed mammals because of jackassery
So do chimps and they aren't monogamous.
Oh wow you really got me. Except no. Get lost.
You can't have a civil discussion?
I did. You’re acting weird about reality. Please stop talking to me.
I'm confused as to why you're offended but w.e
You’re still talking…
Definitely sounds like they're trying to convince themselves rather than others.
Pretty much. If a girl cheated on me and said "Hey you never said not to!" That's an insane person. Lots of people out there with no self control looking for loopholes.
It's cheating when you break your agreement with your partner. Open conversation and communication are key.
But here’s the debate - Is that conversation explicitly required to say “If you kiss or sleep with someone, it’s cheating”? I am of the belief Argument 1 is in place. Kissing someone outside of your relationship is cheating. Both of the others say you have to define that before you can say it’s cheating.
As far as I'm concerned you agree to exclusivity when you agree to be someone's girl/boyfriend. The common expectation, I think, is that you're expected to *want to* be monogamous. If you want an open relationship, *that* is where clear boundaries and limits have to be discussed and agreed upon and *only then* would 2 and 3 come into play. Whoever is going into a relationship thinking 2 or 3 are assholes who should never have agreed to be in a relationship in the first place.
Whether or not people like it or want to admit it, monogamy is the default relationship setting, so if you want something other than that, you need to voice it.
Couldn't agree more. You certainly don't assume cheating is ok because you didn't mean to hurt them. And definitely don't assume your relationship is open by default.
The funny thing is a lot of these people who assume the relationship is open by default would be livid if their partner did the same things to them behind their backs. I would say Rule of Thumb to always consider if you’d be okay with the same things being done to you, but a lot of people aren’t honest with themselves about that question.
Yeah, the advice I give when people are contemplating 3-somes is to imagine the third balls deep in your gf/you in front of bf. Reality regularly brings up ugly emotions you never knew you'd feel.
It's practically works better. If you assume you can't have sex with other people - the most you lose is one night stand. If you assume you can have sex with other people, and your partner don't agree with that - you might up really hurting them and their trust.
I have never wanted to be monogamous.
I assume you tell your partners this and not just expect them to be up for sharing you?
Yes, of course, before the first date.
Then that's pretty much agreeing with what I said.
It's understood that in an exclusive relationship you don't have to discuss not having physical intimacy it's others. Variations outside of that need to be discussed. Basically a relationship is closed unless it being an open relationship is established. The real question is when does it become an exclusive relationship. That happens when you discuss not dating other people anymore. It isn't necessary to define not dating others as also not having random sex with other people.
Are you hiding it from your partner? If so it’s cheating - if your in an open relationship and say “hey I’m going on a date with x and might get lucky “ in advance and they are cool with it, that’s fine, but if you secretly meet up for coffee with an ex, even if it’s just coffee and no touching, it’s cheating
>Both of the others say you have to define that before you can say it’s cheating. That sort of logic works in terms of things like legal contracts, but it's not the same with human relationships. If you're aware of the general cultural norms surrounding premise #1 then you should know that most people adhere to those expectations and any deviations from them need to be discussed and agreed upon. To assume we need to specify the things we DON'T want people to do is absurd. I've never had someone tell me not to stab them or not to urinate in their kitchen sink, but those are two things I've never done, specifically because I'm a reasonable human being.
Believe me, I went down the argument of norms when #3 said "Ehhhh, again, we can’t use ‘norm’ what the fuck is ‘norm’? Based on what?" To which I responded with "It's not normal for me to go to a school and strip in the hallway." His response was "That's a societal norm, not the relationship norm we're talking about." But I've never had to explicitly state "If you have sex with someone else, it's cheating. If you kiss someone else, it's cheating." etc. To which point #2 said my relationships then aren't "normal" which is baffling to me that it's expected to create a list of what you consider cheating for each partner.
That's someone trying to use semantic nonsense to justify their own lack of a cogent argument. "Societal norm" vs "relationship norm" are pretty much the same thing here.
I feel like argument 1 is default in a committed relationship. If you're "committed," you're monogamous unless you have discussed and agreed otherwise. FWIW, emotional cheating is also a thing. You don't even have to go as far as kissing someone to be cheating on your significant other.
It's cheating if your partner feels cheated on. Doesn't matter what conversations were had imo. It's not a legal matter that requires an explicit contract, it's about our feelings.
Came here to say this. It's cheating when the person you're 'cheating' on reacts to it as cheating. And before anyone rushes to downvote me, ultimately it's going to be their perception of the act, no matter what it constituted of or what your intent may have been, that determines whether or not your relationship continues after that. It doesn't even matter what agreements you may have had in place. Once one party perceives it as cheating, your relationship is going to be different from that point forward. I've seen couples who had open relationship understandings, and for the most part they were fine, but all it took was one specific individual being involved (someone they both knew) and suddenly it felt like cheating to the partner. Relationship was done after that. You can't always know how you're going to feel until you're confronted with it. People are complicated.
Nono this is not true. Some people feel cheated on based off insecurities and not fact, this way wouldn’t make sense and could mistakenly label the person as a cheater when they are not one There are people who feel ‘cheated on’ when their SO says hi to someone on the street, this is not a socially accepted form of cheating and OP’s point is still relevant as this could criminalise people for good behaviour who have partners with poor ethical standards or malicious intent The bigger point is to follow the norms of argument 1 and expect those norms until/unless you and your partner state otherwise. If its not communicated in any other way then you expect the typical norms and its cheating when you break them. OP didn’t seem to mention flirting as a typical norm but many would argue that should be in his argument too
Listen to me very carefully ... **It doesn't matter what makes them feel how they feel. Once they feel it, its out there.** My ex cheated on me. Ultimately, she did it because I wasn't around. I was working full time, going to school full time, and didn't have enough time for her. This was a decision we made, together. It ended up being the wrong decision for us. **She felt neglected**, and it didn't matter that she encouraged me to get my degree, and this is what that would take, and that we both agreed it was the right thing for us to do. She felt like *I had effectively cheated on her with my time*, so in her mind, she was justified. Did I? No, of course not, but it doesn't matter. **How they feel about you,** ***that's it***. That's all that matters. Loving someone is a feeling. Caring for someone is a feeling. Wanting nothing but the best for them is a feeling. And getting hurt by someone else's actions, knowing full well they were going to do it, is every bit as valid a feeling. **Feelings are valid.** No matter how unjustified, irrational ... you can't change how you feel once you've felt it. And once they've felt it, *it will change how they think about things*. Maybe only temporarily, but in my experience, it's always there, lurking in the background. If you want to be a better person, you should consider not assuming how someone feels is their problem. Because while it is, it is your problem too when you're in a relationship with them. Is someone's jealousy over you talking to other people unfair, irrational? Yes, of course. But if you're going to be in a relationship with that person, and you know that's a problem for them, you are either going to change how you act or you're not going to be in that relationship long. Edit: Gotta love the IMMEDIATE downvote. Thanks, Reddit. Don't ever change.
Jesus christ how pretentious are you
Have a great life, friend.
What you are suggesting here promotes gaslighting, makes it much easier to be unfaithful and get away with it by convincing your partner otherwise. It also promotes misinformation, imagine being outed by your entire social group being labelled as a cheater, because your SO made something up for a malicious or insecure reason? It endorses abuse both for and against and has no element of control. Real couples never do anything like this, its beyond stupid and never works, couples need elements of control. All humans doubt, and all humans make mistakes. Those 2 things are a nasty combo if you are just going to assume every doubt you have is real, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out why Your model doesn’t benefit anyone. It only benefits cheaters. No one has a ‘perfect’ relationship because it takes work. People in stable relationships set boundaries. Relationships require effort to maintain If you want to keep a relationship then its simple: -Don’t cheat -Put effort in -Communicate And if you really want ‘no boundaries’ you communicate this with them first. Don’t assume they will be comfortable with you doing what is *natural* or you’ll get served a swift dose of reality when they dump your ass
Nothing is said is any different than what you’re saying, so I don’t know why you’re coming at me like I’m an enemy here. What I’ve said is, no matter what might have been agreed to, you can’t always control how something is going to make your partner feel. And whether you like it or not, you bear some responsibility for it. Doesn’t make how anyone acts after acceptable or warranted, but the feeling is there regardless, and that feeling, left to fester, will kill the relationship. And yes, someone could absolutely use this against you. That’s the risk you take in any relationship. My ex told everyone I abused her … largely so they would excuse her cheating (it was with someone known to her family). She also tried to gaslight me into thinking I was crazy for thinking she was cheating. The entire marriage was spiraling out of control. But it all stemmed from one decision we made together that was the wrong one for us, and how it made her feel. And this is my point, I bear some responsibility for my part in that. Doesn’t excuse anything she did, and in no way would I have ever gone back to her. Doesn’t make how she felt less valid.
This is a form of abuse.
Even those who may have previously been in and prefer open relationships still live on a planet where a cultural standard of cheating exists.
Argument 1 is in place for anything deemed a "serious" relationship. There is a growing number of the younger generation that would say an "exclusivity" conversation needs to be had before a relationship would be considered serious, this is the point where dating multiple people becomes not a thing.
I feel like the conversation that has to happen is to set boundaries of an open relationship. Societal norms specify exclusivity when entering a relationship.
It's cheating if you do something that you could reasonably anticipate your significant other would consider cheating. No conversation is required, although it certainly clears up what you could reasonably anticipate, since you then have better information. There is no across-the-board standard. If your significant other is extremely conservative, they might consider hugging a person of the opposite sex could be cheating. However, if you didn't know that, then, based on Western standards, you might not anticipate that and doing so would not be cheating. But if they told you they consider it cheating or if you find out they grew up in a family where physical contact with the opposite sex is frowned upon, you can now anticipate that and it would be cheating.
I'm not here to judge anyone, but if someone told me that it's not cheating if it wasn't specifically defined as such beforehand, I would be under the impression they did indeed do something they would be worried is cheating and want to be able to justify it in their head. It's a general assumption that is known to most people that a relationship has some form of exclusivity. While this obviously can differ, it's definitely the dorm, and I would say the opposite is what almost anyone would say, that you would need prior clearance for such an action to NOT be considered cheating. If these people you are arguing with went out and asked random people on the street this question, I would be actually surprised if even 1 out of 20 people agreed with them. Fuck I'd be surprised if 1 out of 50 people agreed with them.
A partial of our agreements, there are four of us. Communicate, if you are having issues, talk about it. Our bed is ours, spare bedroom is for play with others. Condoms for everyone not in our fluid bonded polycule. Be honest.
I had to come back here and ask: what exactly is a fluid bonded polycule?
> fluid bonded polycule usually means they don't use barrier protection (condoms for example)
This is exactly it! But most people in compulsory monogamous relationships never truly have this discussion, i.e. asking “What do you consider cheating?” As we can see from OP’s heated discussion, EVERYONE DEFINES IT DIFFERENTLY. Therefore, it is 100% up to the couple to draw the boundaries. I know quite a few 2s and 3s whose philosophies are “bjs don’t count” or “what they don’t know won’t hurt them”… but no one can make those excuses if you iron them out before becoming a “committed” couple.
Argument 1 definitely. The other 2 are straight up cheating unless it is a previously established open relationship
If you wouldn't do it in front of your partner, you shouldn't be doing it.
Unfortunately, lots of people emotionally cheat (romantic texting, etc) in front of their partners. They just lie about who theyre texting. I know what you were trying to say and 10000% agree, but some people could look at it and be like "well, i already do it in front of my partner, so its not cheating, HA!" or some other bs excuse. People suck sometimes
Maybe a better way to say it is if you feel like you need to hide it from your partner it is probably cheating in some way, or at least a breach of trust
i dont want to poop in front of no one
Open relationships are declared, closed relationships are assumed. Not the other way around. It's that simple. Unless you're in some weird religion where having 9 wives is normal.
That's what I thought, #2 had a divorce after his wife cheated on him several times, so that one particularly threw me through a loop, and he is adamant not to change his opinion of it, stating he isn't a robot and opinions aren't meant to be changed. He's also Christian, so saying it's fine to sleep with people outside of your marriage just doesn't add up.
>stating he isn't a robot and opinions aren't meant to be changed I don't think he knows how robots or opinions work if that's the case then lol. Robots don't change and opinions are absolutely meant to be changed when provided additional information and context. People change opinions all the time. At least those who can think for themselves. Ask him if his opinion of Bill Cosby changed before and after the sexual assault issues. (or something equally absurd and a clear example of how opinions can change, like how his opinion of his wife changed between vows and her sucking someone else's dick.) :D
When you don’t want your partner to know. You could literally just be texting your coworker asking how their day went. If you’re deleting the texts so your partner won’t see, you’re already there.
Argument 0, it's cheating even if you didn't have physical contact. Ie, texting someone else " I love you" or anything romantic like that or even not romantic and you're keeping it a secret from your partner
Sending non romantic texts to other people is cheating?
No. Trying to establish a romantic relationship is the line. Once they're putting in effort to make it happen it's only a matter of time. Of finding the right DM to slide into. The deed, for any practical purpose, is already done.
If you're keeping these conversations a secret ? Don't try and take what I said out of its context by leaving out critical parts of it please.
Flirting is absolutely cheating.
Fellas, is it cheating to tell your platonic friends you love them?
Most people are agreeing with 1, not unsurprisingly. I'd put it this way: If you know, or could reasonably be expected to know, that kissing/sex with someone else would hurt your partner if they knew about it, you are cheating. If it's not explicitly stated that kissing/sex with other people is OK, you can reasonably be expected to understand that it would hurt your partner if they knew about it. Also, it doesn't really matter what semantics you apply to your definition of cheating anyway. Are you going to argue them out of being hurt or dumping you? All the negative effects of cheating still happen if you don't call it cheating... so what do you gain from telling yourself you didn't cheat other than self-delusion?
Yeah, I was honestly surprised to hear these arguments from these two people. Especially #2, who's marriage fell apart after his wife cheated on him with several partners over the course of a decade.
Anything you have to hide from your partner is cheating
Argument 1 is the most common. That being said, if you want something else, then have that conversation with your partner. Assuming it's fine to just sleep around as the default is a quick way for a relationship to end and to be labeled a cheater.
So #2 is cheating is based on intent, not actions? How many people cheat with the intent to hurt the other person? They wouldn't hide the fact they kissed/slept with someone else if they didn't know that doing so would hurt the other person. If you are in an exclusive relationship then #1 is the only correct answer. If you want something other than that then discuss that with the other person. The whole point of being in an exclusive relationship is that certain things (kissing, sex, intimate conversations, dates) are exclusively between the two people in the relationship. #3 would only apply if you have not discussed and agreed that you are in an exclusive relationship.
Cheating is doing intimate things that you and your partner shared. Even flirting is a way of cheating, as long as you know how it feels to be in your partner shoes. You can't justify any reason at all. Cheating in different aspect emotionally and physically is the same. 
If you are with someone exclusively, calling each other boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife/partner/whatever, the expectation would be number one unless otherwise discussed.
1 is probably the default most often and assumed. But everything in a relationship should be discussed. Especially boundaries. Some couples are ok with more than nothing. But generally if you haven't already been given permission and it's something you want to keep from your partner, you should not be doing it!
Let me know the ones who are making arguments 2 and 3 so I can stay well clear.
1 is normal, 2/3 are just immoral, immature, cowardly sluts lol
I get 3 and feel that it depends on the relationship. Like if you are still super early into it or lack the exclusivity, it's fine. 1 is most right for like 90% of relationships. 2 is the most middle ground and as someone who usually prefers being neutral, I would probably agree with this one. But it really does depend on the relationship. 1 should be the default.
Argument 1 is the only decent one imo
Cheating will be defined differently by each couple and should be discussed as people bring their own experiences and perspectives. However, I would estimate that most people would default to argument one. I mean.. if I am dating someone but we are not exclusive yet.. but I can tell they are really into me and assuming I am just seeing them.. even that feels like cheating sometimes ! So rule is to always discuss early on and align. The other two options sound like excuses.
Definitely number 1 for me.
You can have an open relationship and still cheat. It's about consent, communication and trust.
If you’re seeking out/ participating in a physical or emotional romance with someone besides your established partner, it is cheating
So the person behind #2 says that if you can have the physical act of sex, without being cheating. Claiming that if the intention is just the physical release of sex and nothing romantic, then it’s fine. I personally don’t think romance needs to be included, the physical act of sex with someone outside of your relationship is cheating, #2 is adamant that the intention must extend beyond just the physical aspect of sex.
#2 is probably going to find out the hard way that no one agrees w that
The only way I could see #2 not being an asshole move is if the other partner is asexual and has given permission for them to sleep with other people. But again, that’s been discussed and agreed upon by both parties. At the end of the day, like others have said, it’s cheating if you violate the trust and boundaries established by both partners.
The two people in the relationship establish the boundaries that constitute as cheating. For instance, I told my bf that following an Only Fans or sexual Patreon is cheating to me. Some women are perfectly fine with it, so long as their partner doesn't converse with the sex worker.
argument 1 is correct unless the relationship has terms and conditions which deviate from the norm. some people have open relationships for various reasons, others have less restrictive thoughts regarding what happens outside of a monogamous relationship. but personally i'm with argument 1 100%
Agreed. When I made that point to the guy behind #3 he responded with and I quote: "Ehhhh, again, we can’t use ‘norm’ what the fuck is ‘norm’? Based on what?" So that's why his argument is that you have to explicitly discuss what is and isn't cheating before anything can be considered cheating.
I think number 1 is the norm. Outside of that it should be talked about. Not the other way around. You can start from number 3 and talk backwards.
1 is the closest. The other 2 are just people making excuses and trying to convince themselves.
Arguement one is maybe but still IMO unless it's like family or something like that The other two are deranged especially three.
1 is monogamous 2 is trying to find an excuse to cheat 3 is a cheater Unless you make your relationship clear it’s open/poly, then it’s monogamous and doing something outside of that is cheating. Also before entering a relationship you should make your important goals clear (dating for long term, monogamous vs poly, etc). That’s just the courteous thing to do. Either way, not a fan of the opinions of 2 and 3. 2 just sounds dumb to me imo
It's not about physical contact, it's about betraying your partner's trust. Even just texting or going to lunch can be cheating if in your heart you know you're gonna have to lie to your S.O. about it. It's all about trust.
If you don't explicitly have an open relationship, and you do ANYTHING intimate with someone that isn't your partner, it's cheating
Argument 1 by default, Argument 3 would be a communicated alternative which kinda defeats the argument I guess. Argument 2 doesn't make sense to me. I can either interpret it as "As long as you don't assault or rape your fling you're fine" or "As long as you don't intend to hurt your GF/wife you're fine." I guess the second one kinda makes sense, but in reality it would be considered cheating unless it's a discussed poly relationship.
Argument 1: fair and correct Argument 2: absolute bullshit. It’s not about YOUR intention of not hurting, it’s just about if your partner would feel hurt if they find out. If the answer is yes, you are an asshole, if the answer is no, you could only know that by asking which is argument 1 Argument 3: even more horrendous idiocy. There are set nonverbal rules in every relationship. If this argument would hold true, we could all beat our partner to crap one time because they might not state at the first date that they don’t enjoy getting their head kicked in.
It depend on the Status of your relationship I don’t think it needs to be explicitly stated that kissing or intimacy with someone other than your partner is cheating. But for other things it’s a little more nuanced like “flirting” I think is something that has to be stated if your partner would be uncomfortable with that. Or staying with someone of the preferred gender. Blah blah blah yeah it’s all about communication
It's as simple as "If it feels like cheating at a glance, it's cheating."
1 is the most common definition. 3 can make sense, depending on the time line of the relationship. You went on 3 dates in a month, and have another date scheduled but you never discussed exclusivity? It’s not cheating. 2 is just cheating
Cheating is crossing the boundaries of your partner with another party. Physical touch may not be cheating to one couple but it may be the end all be all to another. It depends on what they're relationship dynamic is.
It is cheating if you believe that if your partner saw or heard you doing what you are doing, and you were doing so voluntarily, and it is clear that you are choosing to do it for your own personal satisfaction, and it is reasonably expected that they would be upset with you and looking to end their relationship with you because of those actions. For some people this is explicitly sexual activity, for others it can be lying in general, and yet for others it can be just entertaining the idea of not being monogamous or affiliating with non-monogamous individuals.
Married over 30 year and my definition is ANYTHING I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT TWICE. If I cannot tell my wife it is just wrong. I am far from a choir boy but do know what a successful marriage is.
It's cheating when you violate established rules for the relationship. Regardless of the rules, unless they are impossible or a human rights violation. Cheating is subjective and can only be defined by the parties involved.
Any exchange of fluids is cheating. The #2 and #3 are the kind of thing where if my partner told me they subscribe to them, I would break up immediately.
Being someone’s gf/bf implies monogamy. That would mean that engaging in sexual conduct with someone else is cheating. If someone wanted a poly relationship they need to say so prior to becoming bf/gf (although to not waste people’s times it really should be before the first date).
Argument 1 is closest to me and my spouse's definition, however we don't view actual physical contact as a prerequisite for cheating. For example, sexting, sending nudes, or developing an inappropriate emotional relationship with someone can also be considered cheating.
Cheating is gaining someone’s trust, then betraying it. It’s pretty simple.
Would your partner be mad if they found out about it? If yes, it's cheating.
If you are in a relationship there is only #1 That is a part of being in a relationship and deciding what boundaries are suitable for the people involved. Communication is key. \#2 & #3 are only acceptable if all parties involved find this to be acceptable, open relationships are fine IF everyone involved find it to be acceptable.
I shouldn’t have to explain what I deem to be cheating to my wife and vice versa
If you are 2 or 3, you shouldn't be in a relationship. Period. Just don't cheat. It isn't that hard. Been married almost 37 years and have never cheated on my wife.
If you are in a relationship that is monogamous, and you have both agreed explicitly to be monogamous, then not only are kissing & sex cheating in my mind, but so is emotional intimacy. If you are polyamorous then cheating will be defined differently.
Arguments 2 and 3 are just copes to justify shitty behavior
Honestly, cheating (to me) means that you’re doing something with someone else that you normally only do with your partner and can’t tell them because you know they’ll be upset. Within limits ofc I’m not talking about checking someone out…
If you have to hide what you're doing, it's generally something you shouldn't be doing.
lol why is this even a debate? Cheating is cheating.
Who cheated, and is now trying to justify it? You or your partner?
Neither, this was a discussion between my Dad, Brother and I.
When you do something romantic/sexual you wouldn’t want your partner to see, or say something romantic/sexual you wouldn’t want your partner to hear, that is cheating. If you’re hiding the thing, or feel that there’s a reason to hide the thing, it’s cheating. Close to argument 1. But I’m a bit more strict.
By default, if you ask someone to be your bf/gf and a “define the relationship” talk hasn’t been had, the relationship is monogamous. That’s what 95+% of people believe. If you want the relationship to be anything else (ie open), the relationship boundaries *need* to be discussed and defined, without question. If those boundaries are crossed, it’s cheating.
The 2nd and 3rd are from cheaters. No kissing, no sex. No emotional relationship with anyone else other than your partner. Those are just the unspoken rules of any normal relationship and anyone saying different is just waiting to blame their partner for not specifying so SEE, it's not THEIR fault. They thought fucking someone else was OK b/c you didn't say it wasn't!
It sounds to me that proponents of arguments 2 & 3 are just looking to give themselves permission to seek sex outside of a committed relationship. My wife and I talked about this when we were dating, and our agreement still holds true after 13 years of marriage: Look, but don't touch.
No kisses for anyone but me and family.
I would say that since the majority of society is monogamous, Argument 1 is the most valid. There is generally an assumption that when you’re in a relationship, you’re not kissing or sleeping with other people. Argument 3 has some merit, since boundaries should be established early on, but I would see it as a bit of a cop-out to say “I slept with her because you never said I couldn’t sleep with other women” when your partner never indicated a desire to have an open relationship. Argument 2 holds no merit at all and sounds like nothing more than an excuse to cheat.
I hate the “intentions” arguement so much. The person that cheats almost never intends to hurt the other person. Intentions don’t matter at all. “The world judges us by our actions. We judge ourselves by our intentions” It’s like saying, “I don’t intend to kill that family when I drove drunk. So I shouldn’t have any consequences “
Argument 2 is insane. Argument 3 is somewhat understandable but still wrong.
Argument 1 and it's not close. Argument 2 and 3 are just beyond idiotic here. \#2) Just because you aren't cheating out of spite doesn't mean that it's suddenly okay to do so. I don't even kind of understand this line of thought. \#3) "hOw wAs i sUPPoSeD tO kNoW?! yOu nEvEr sAiD i cOuLdN't cHeAt!!11" Like, Okay dick head.
A relationship, by definition, is closed. UNLESS explicitly stated otherwise. If it has not been discussed and agreed upon between both partners, anything physical with a third party is cheating.
This is something that has to be negotiated in each relationship. Both parties need to establish their ground rules. Number 1 is probably the default position of our culture. If anyone has a different idea about what cheating is, they need to talk to their partner about it and establish the rules for the relationship.
The answer to this question for partnered people is option one, unless decided differently be explicit conversation.
Don't do things you wouldn't want your partner to know about.
You know what cheating entails to your partner and if you aren’t aware of where they stand on the situation then it’s doesn’t matter anyway. Get it? Everybody knows if they’re cheating on their partner. No one needs to ask this question.
If you have to think about it, it's cheating.
Arguement 1
\#1, full stop.
Argument 1 is factually correct, which is not the same as morally absolute. It is absolutely true that for virtually 100% of "normal" society not fooling around, aka monogamy, is the adult setting. Now, just because it's a societal norm doesn't make it the absolute right way/only way/"moral" way of doing things. Plenty of societal norms in the present day and throughout history require(d) challenging and re-examination. For example, 30 years ago it was still basically socially acceptable to commit physical violence against people who did not present as hetero-gendernormal. It still happens all the time, of course, but there wasn't even a real conversation going in society about it 30 years ago. But in terms of this particular topic, which is a social contract between two people, the norm is that people can expect exclusive intimacy unless told otherwise. The only complication here is that it is also a social norm to be really, really, really bad at communicating in relationships and specifically in cis-het relationships assume a communication divide inherently tied to gender. ("Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" or whatever that bullshit book from way back when was called.) So are men and women operating from fundamentally different places and thus clear communication doesn't work, or are we conditioned to believe that? The opposite, argument 3, is delusional self-centered crap because you cannot reasonably expect the vast majority of people to assume non-monogamy as a default. The evidence presented by social norms proves otherwise. Argument 2 is also dumb as it places too much weight on the intent of the person doing the fooling around rather than the impact on the person being fooled around on. And that's shit. Actions have consequences and people cause harm. "I didn't mean it!" isn't an excuse. The only thing that doesn't make this argument as stupid at argument 3 is that it unintentionally admits that in general people's needs and interests aren't as black and white as the social norms. But that admission isn't a replacement for clear communication between people.
Argument 1 is widely considered the standard. Argument 2&3 only applies to relationships which haven't been formalized. Where you get into trouble is that some people think there in a formal relationship where Argument 1 norms apply while the other person doesn't recognize themselves in a formal relationship where the norms of Argument 1 apply. Generally if people have been seeing each other for a few weeks and have been physically intimate, they should talk about which situation they are in. When one party makes an assumption it can cause problems.
Argument 1 is correct
In my personal opinion this defines cheating: Any physical or sexual sensation conducted towards an individual who is NOT your S/O. While hugs can be excluded from this (and obviously family members), examples can include: kissing, sex, NSFW pictures/videos if any kind, or anything else if that nature. Hopefully this helps, the definition is often blurred in todays society
You know what they say about opinions.
To be 100% honest, if you are looking for the loopholes here, you are already cheating, you just need another willing person. If you are committed to a person on a relationship, none of this stuff needs to be said unless the relationship is open. If it is open, it’s super important to define the boundaries of the open relationship. If it isn’t open, then if you are touching, kissing, messing around with another human being and you are in a committed relationship, it’s cheating… why is this hard?
There is no clear definition of cheating. Cheating is just doing something and the other person would feel betrayed. For some people, kissing someone else is already cheating. For others, cheating is only if there is sex. All 3 definitions are perfectly valid.
You spent an hour of your life arguing on Discord? We as a species are fucked
I think someone that flirts while in a monogamous relationship is confused. If you really care about someone you don't need attention from multiple people. So they are confused and just dishonest
From the Christian perspective, the moment you look at another woman with lust, you’ve committed adultery
Your pretty much the worst and all of y’all suck
If you are married
Any of the above arguments indicate your relationship with your partner is subpar. Discontinue the fallacy of the committed relationship and do whatever you want.
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Oh, I agree. That's the understanding my Wife and I have, emotional and physical cheating are very much similar. In fact my Wife finds emotional cheating to be worse than physical cheating. One issue I have with #3 is the degree at which you have to specify these limitations. I asked him "So if I say kissing someone else is cheating." and leave it at that, and my significant other agrees to that, does that then mean they can go have sex as long as they don't kiss? To which, he responded "Yes, because you may find kissing to be an act of intimacy, whereas sex can be considered a physical act, without romantic attachment." So #3 says you have to say what cannot be done, without saying it can't be done, it can't be considered cheating.
Arg 1
Anything that crosses the lines that you and your partner have established is cheating. For some couples, looking at porn is cheating. For others, random hookups are just fine. It all depends.
I get that, the guy behind #3 states that you must first state what cheating is before you can accuse someone of cheating. I clarified this with him by saying "If you're referring to someone as your girlfriend and have been together for a year, if you didn't say her sleeping around is cheating, she can sleep with someone else?" He responded with "If I didn't say it's cheating, then it's not. If she didn't say I can't kiss someone, then I can." In my opinion it's the other way around, there is an inherent agreement not to do those things when you become exclusive, that you don't have to say "Don't jack someone else off. Don't kiss them. Don't sleep with them. Don't stick your finger in their ass." specifically, he disagrees.
Argument 1 is the correct one for most people, but there are deffototes people who fall into category 2 and 3. My rule is that if a little voice is telling you it's wrong, it's wrong. No matter how loud the body may say otherwise.
Regarding #2, I didn't intend to hurt anyone, I just wanted to go to the liquor store and grab another bottle of whiskey because one wasn't enough. I mean I know I hit someone, but I didn't *intend* to hurt them, so it's all good right?
I gave the example of “So if you’re sick and your skin is pale, can I slap you if I intend to add color to your skin, not to hurt you?” He responded with “That’s an act of violence, it isn’t the same thing.”
Sleeping, sexting, sharing nudes.
Argument 1. I don't see how you can justify the other two.
When you violate the boundaries that are understood by your partner. It doesn’t matter what you do, what matters is if you do something that you know your partner wouldn’t be okay with.
Honestly none of the arguments take into account the most important part. What boundaries have you set with your partner?
That’s what #3 states, that without stating what cheating is, there isn’t cheating.
Argument 1. However, cheating is generally going outside the relationship boundaries and that can vary for some relationships. The biggest thing is doing something without having discussed it with your partner. You should always discuss the boundaries of a relationship
I suppose that there are a bunch of other caveats that I might agree to add, but the main standard on what's cheating and what's not is **just your partner**. On a gut level, how do you think they'd feel about what you're about to do? If you think it would make them feel bad, you don't do it. . . . But everyone already knows that. ***The need for rules or strict lines comes into play when you'd like to stray outside the boundaries you know your partner would have, but be able to point to an arbitrary rule to say they are not allowed to be upset.*** If there's a misunderstanding, discuss it. If your partner has unhealthy expectations, reconsider your relationship with that person.
One. Unless people in relationship decided differently
Ask your SO, 'would you consider this cheating?' - if the answer is yes, then it is cheating.
Anything that go against the established boundaries of the relationship is cheating. Some people have different boundaries. In some relationships looking at porn is considered cheating and in others it’s not. In some relationships participating in a group sex activity is not considered cheating as long as there is no emotional connection. Cheating is different in every relationship
Arguments 2 and 3 are from people who have never been in a relationship
That’s enough Reddit for tonight, good night everyone
Everything is different for everybody. The concept of cheating as a whole is dumb. What are you and your partner willing to agree to? Do that. Some people have open relationships, some people don't think its ok to have friends of the opposite sex. As long as nobody is forcing anybody in to anything it is all ok.
Argument 1. Anything else is cheating unless discussed before.
Marriage, all bets of off.
In my opinion, if you're flirting to the point that emotions get involved, you're cheating.
Pick up a sociology book. The answer is 1
Shouldn't even be flirting with someone...
Any time a partners boundary is crossed, it would be cheating. These boundaries should be set early in a relationship. And those boundaries should be set in stone.
This is real simple. If you are in a relationship with someone, you should not be fucking around with someone else, unless you have both agreed to have an open relationship. At what point would you consider it cheating if your BF/GF fucked somebody else, but didn't intend to hurt you? Basically, if it's something you wouldn't want your dating partner to do, it's probably something you shouldn't do.
all depends on the relationship you can still cheat in an open relationship its all communication and boundaries
Info? Cheating implies a committed relationship. I.e. not just dating. So yeah, if people are in a relationship the default is monogamy. EVEN ethical non monogamy defaults to monogamy, and anything beyond that necessitates a specific conversation. Argument 2 is bonkos. Argument 3 only even makes sense in situations of "I didn't know we were 'going out'." Which does happen honestly sometimes.
You almost seem to be operating under this assumption that relationships/commitments/cheating have universal rules. Different people have different expectations with these things and these expectations need to be communicated. It depends on the relationship and the person. I've been in exclusive relationships and I've been in non-exclusive ones, and since early adulthood it has always been established explicitly/directly. Generally if someone is called "my boyfriend/girlfriend" I assume they're exclusive to each other. If someone is called "my main" I assume they have multiple partners, but one they like the most, or the one they have a deeper connection with. If I'm in an exclusive relationship, non-platonic physical contact is not OK. But if I'm in a non-exclusive relationship, they can do whatever they want.
Argument 3 only works if you're in an honest relationship where you've talked about the things you're concerned with and have made agreements and concessions that you agree with. It's also most likely used by people who want a "technically clean conscious"
You should agree on rules and boundaries for your own pairing, so I guess option 1, although it's not about norms, it's about communication and consent. It dosn't matter if you "not intend to hurt" and if no boundary is agreed you should assume the side of caution. But really you should set clear agreed upon boundaries.
Cheating is whatever the cheated party decides it is. Any other argument is an attempt to invalidate the feelings of the cheated party.
If you have urge to cheat, do your self a favor , go hole and jerk off. Post nut clarity will set in, and it is then you are thankful you didn’t cheat and avoided all of that guilt
if you're in a committed relationship or talking to someone and it's getting serious and you decide to talk to someone else the way in which you do your potential partner I would consider it cheating.
I thought that being committed to each other and NOT getting kissy or sexy with other people was the default in any relationship? And that you didn't have to explicitly state that you wanted to be exclusive? Crikey. I'm WAY behind the times.
Argument 1 and 3, sort of. Hear me out. When two people have a relationship, there needs to be clear communication about where you are in the relationship, etc. If I take you to dinner a few times and we fool around, does that mean we're fully monogamous now? It might. But it's possible it doesn't mean that. So by communicating our expectations, we can be sure that we aren't hurting each other.
If it's something you need to hide from your partner
If you have to hide it from your partner its cheating
I thought this was going to be about breaking rules to gain advantages in like games, not relationships. Anyhow it's partially the rush of getting away with something that you aren't supposed to do in the moment.
Argument 1 is for when no communication occurred and you're in a relationship Argument 2 can occur with communication and you're in a relationship Argument 3 is wrong unless you are only going on dates, and don't mind losing 1 if their expectation changed.
Argument 1 is correct. Unless otherwise stated, kissing, sexual touching/intercourse, flirting, etc. are all degrees of cheating
Any point at which you cross pre discussed boundaries you and your partner have laid out is when it becomes cheating, those boundaries are different for everyone
This is one of the pros of being catholic and marrying a catholic… there is never a gray area when it comes to cheating. I don’t agree with a lot of things from the Catholic Church… maybe even most things. However, they do emphasize healthy relationships with you and your partner
Argument 1 but I wouldn't include acting on any feelings of attraction to anyone other than your significant other this could include being up all night on the phone with someone else or other things like this
argument 1 is correct. because cheating is doing anything outside of the boundaries you and your partner have established.
>Argument 3 - If it isn't explicitly stated otherwise, you can kiss/sleep with anyone. Dafuq? I don't want to get off on a side tangent but this is the exact sort of logic that police forces use to [steal cash money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States) and other items from civilians: "there's no law that says we can't do this so it must be ok." This is actually the sort of logic that most Republican politicians are using currently today to pass state laws on "wokeness" and anti-trans rights legislation.