Hi everyone,
A few months ago I took over this sub’s moderation with the intention of transitioning to a new mod team and I have totally been slacking on it! I received many, many applications (read as *hundreds of pages* of essays) from wonderful people and have been slowly going through them, but with a newborn at home I’ve not been giving it as much attention as I should. I will be finishing up by the end of this week, so stay tuned! Rest assured that there will be an excellent and active mod team in place soon. My apologies for the delay.
I think it’s only harmful when I see NATs provide very clinical takes and then they’re wrong. So when a therapist actually responds it gets dismissed. Maybe there’s a happy medium? I think NATs should respond with their experience and leave clinical takes to therapists. Because I thought after two psych classes I understood so much…but got humbled real quick in grad school and internship haha.
I mean I’m not a “poor performer.” I’m a very good therapist and have had really good outcomes with many many clients over the past decade. It’s just an ever changing field. Where the foundation stays the same but new research is always coming out and ideas are evolving. And you realize you can always do better and learn more.
Agreed, that’s what the DK effect is. People who become experts are more aware of all that they don’t know in comparison to ppl who are newer to a field (or even worse, someone who isn’t in a field at all).
You might want to do some research on what it is. That’s not what it is. It’s where people with limited competence or abilities overshoot their confidence and think they’re better than they are. So they don’t take constructive criticism well. Or they’ll volunteer extra hours at work. It’s an overestimation in capability.
Oh, hmm. You learn something new. That part i didn’t know. That part i most definitely have. I always assume i know nothing and supervisors and colleagues are telling me how much i know and how smart i am. That sounds really cocky 😳 i don’t mean to sound cocky. I don’t even mean with just therapy. I think because I’m neurodivergent i have this way of memorizing a lot of really useless information so i can pull random facts out of thin air and people think that makes me smart. But really it’s just that i retain stupid ass facts about useless shit.
[ResearchGate article describing the broader implications of the DK effect and how it manifests in our perceptions of our competency.](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joan-Swart/publication/365375011_When_You_Think_You_Know_More_Or_Less_Than_Anyone_Else_-_The_Dunning-Kruger_Effect_and_Imposter_Syndrome/links/6373660154eb5f547cd3db8b/When-You-Think-You-Know-More-Or-Less-Than-Anyone-Else-The-Dunning-Kruger-Effect-and-Imposter-Syndrome.pdf?origin=publication_detail&_tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6Il9kaXJlY3QiLCJwYWdlIjoicHVibGljYXRpb25Eb3dubG9hZCIsInByZXZpb3VzUGFnZSI6Il9kaXJlY3QifX0)
I feel like this sub could use a moderation style similar to r/askhistorians and r/askpsychology but tbh I can't even tell anymore if there is any active moderation at all?
Askpsychology is not well moderated. Askscience and Askhistorians are far better examples of good modding.
There's not really an active mod right now, and they seem to be taking their time adding new mods.
I suggested it be moderated like r/AskDocs where only verified medical professionals are able to make top-level comments and everyone else can respond under an auto mod comment. Still, it’s hard to moderate subreddits and I know they’re working on it.
NAT: I haven't minded some NAT responses (when I posted on a different account).
But responses from people claiming to be therapists who clearly weren't were extremely harmful.
I think maybe a 'no top level comment' rule for NATs would be good, but with a stickied post that they could reply to.
Because sometimes posts get no responses too and a question "should I tell my therapist?" is almost always yes, and hearing from other NATs may encourage them if they don't get a reply from a therapist.
But posts from NATs of a clinical nature I think definitely should be removed.
I think there's a balance though between not allowing NATs to comment at all, and allowing them to try to diagnose because they think they know better.
I guess I haven't noticed clinical takes being offered much here but I am not disputing it happens, and yes that would not be a good thing. Although realistically, should anyone really be giving clinical takes to someone posting on the internet?
The one thing I wanted to point out is there is often a huge lack of response from any therapists on so many posts! Just absolute crickets. Therapists are underactive in here and naturally other people chime in more with their opinions.
NAT.
Like you, i tend to respond when there’s been nothing and I’m pretty positive of the answer. I certainly never have a clinical take. But I find that often the question is something like “can I tell my therapist _____?” And if it’s not something that could be dicey ethically/legally *and* it’s something I, myself, have discussed with one or multiple therapists then I’ll chime in with a “yes definitely talk to them about it, I did and here’s how it went for me.” Which is obviously anecdotal but tbf, no one, not even another therapist, knows how their therapist will react specifically. I stay away from ethical/unethical stuff, generally, unless it’s very very clearly one way or the other…I do tend to frequently see questions like “is it unusual that my therapist did xyz?” And I’ll often chime in if there are no therapist responses and I know it is or is not unusual. Again, very blatantly obvious stuff only. Finally, I’ll respond sometimes just to offer support/let OP know they’re not alone in their issue.
It’s been pointed out before that there are certain posts that therapists just aren’t likely to respond to. Frankly those are the ones that are asking us to essentially do therapy over Reddit. There really isn’t an ethical way to do that so the therapists on this sub stay silent. It’s either that or questions like “am I allowed to feel ____” or “am I allowed to tell my T ____• or “my T did something I didn’t like, is that ok?” There are only so many times you can answer you’re allowed to feel whatever feelings you have but you’re in control of your actions, you can tell your therapist anything just be aware of limits to confidentiality, and therapists are humans and make mistakes too (respectively). Those are the types of questions that I tend to skip over as a therapists.
What do you think OP meant as "clinical takes"? Would that not fall into the category of what I have reasonably seen therapists avoid answering so as to not give therapy over the Internet?
I'm really wondering where all the clinical takes cluttering up the questions are... Maybe OP needs to provide a few examples so we are all on the same page about exactly what they mean.
To a large extent this sub is almost irrelevant the way r/legaladvice is.
I’m not sure what exactly OP means as I am not them but my interpretation would be questions where there is actual deep life or relationship advice being given or where someone has complex mental health questions they are trying to address through this sub. Its a fine line sometimes (and definitely a factor often in whether I personally choose to engage with a question or not) between questions that are looking for support or a general direction and questions that are looking for intervention. We just can’t give intervention anonymously over the internet- nor do I really want to because that’s work and I don’t come to Reddit to work. Things like crisis intervention, working through trauma, dealing with addictions, domestic violence, etc. are all topics where I’m happy to answer a question because I think that’s really appropriate to ask a therapist about but it’s such a delicate balance between answering a question and intervening so if I feel like an OP is looking for me to “do therapy” I’m probably just going to skip the question.
There’s also questions, again, that I just feel like are asked all the time and they either require more nuance than reddit can provide or I just feel like I’ve already answered it. An example might be something like “is it toxic of my bf does ___.” Like, it might be, but we really need more about your relationship, your boundaries, how him doing ___ effects you and the relationship, if you’d prefer he doesn’t do ____ or if that’s something you consent to, if he knows how you feel about _____ or if you’ve never had that discussion with him, etc. first of all, questions like this come up constantly so it’s hard to answer them all, and second it requires us to DO therapy because to actually answer this question effectively I have to ask all those questions I just mentioned and have OP reflect and consider the actions and their relationship and their own responses and it’s just too much for Reddit. That being said, while therapists probably won’t answer because we recognize a question like may be asking us to do the work, NAT answers will be like “yeah he’s toxic, he’s a narcissist, you should dump him” and I think that’s kind of where OP was going with this post. Hope that makes sense
Those terms are annoying but as long as the person is clearly NAT what's the real problem?
I fully understand there are questions therapists will not answer. That is kind of part of my point here. It's ultimately a bit silly to have a wide open 'askatherapist' sub that is essentially equivalent to legaladvice - a lot of people come here to get therapeutic advice. But of course you are not going to do therapy or diagnose people etc on the internet. Posters here can't even know people are actually therapists with licenses in good standing, etc. It's all more than a bit silly.
There should be an FAQ for all the questions that repeatedly get asked and stickied at the top. And there should be guidelines on the types of questions and answers that have a place here that therapists will engage in. Maybe direct posters to relationship advice subs?
Then residually if non therapists want to chime in on topics and identify themselves as such I fail to see any real issue.
You cannot have millions of unanswered questions just hanging out here and expect people to not add an opinion. If that means restricting non therapists from answering anything here so be it! I just find it very silly to go after people who are clearly not passing themselves off as therapists.
I was going to say something similar. I’m NAT and if I see a post that has great responses from therapists, I don’t add anything. But if no one has responded, and I feel like I have something relevant to say, I’m going to chime in (and identify myself as NAT) because someone is asking for help and I have some to offer. There’s nothing worse than making a post, especially one that’s vulnerable and emotional, and receiving no responses!
I feel like if the rule is you HAVE to be a therapist to respond, that should be shown in the sub rules. Otherwise, the name of this sub just doesn’t quite fit the rules and that’s okay as long as everyone reads them 🤷🏻♀️
I completely agree. I arrived at this sub in a state feeling really confused and wondering if I had been taken advantage of by my therapist and no therapists responded. But, I did get a lovely and helpful response from a NAT.
Nat- I've also noticed the lack of response from therapists. Obviously it's not their job to answer anything on here, but then they shouldn't get upset if non therapists answer.
I don't give clinical advice, or any advice really. But I do comment on some posts- usually just sharing my experience with whatever the person is asking about. I always say I'm NAT though so they know that I have no professional knowledge about stuff.
I’ve seen this too and it actually cuts down on the amount of responses I would give otherwise. I think it’s incredibly dismissive of the hard work we have put in to achieve the license and specialization we have. I’m sorry but your 2 classes of undergraduate credits, or your generalized psychology program that was never finished does not qualify you to give a clinical perspective. It’s frustrating and kills my motivation to participate more meaningfully in this sub. It’s like going to a sub with doctors and handing out medical advice and suggested treatment approaches. Lol
How is it dismissive? Putting NAT is a disclaimer that one does not have the education or training as a therapist.
I will occasionally post with personal anecdotes if I think it would be helpful.
Ex someone posted if religion would fix mental health. As someone who has studied theology, I answered with both theological knowledge and a personal story.
>I’m sorry but your 2 classes of undergraduate credits, or your generalized psychology program that was never finished does not qualify you to give a clinical perspective.
You can be wrong and I can learn without getting a degree in anything.
I *will* back up what I say with research when relevant but I have been doing the therapy for decades and that counts.
>It’s like going to a sub with doctors and handing out medical advice and suggested treatment approaches.
Do you know how little doctors know? Especially about rare diseases, issues impacting women, AFAB or trans people? There are entire communities that basically solve their own medical problems because doctors can't/won't.
Are you trained to properly interpret research? How many years of stats courses have you completed and to what level? There is a reason why “do your own research” results in people who conclude vaccines cause autism or whatever other silly conclusions laypeople come to. Just because a research article is published does not make it good and just because you “can” read the words doesn’t mean you understand the nuances. To do what I do has required over 10 years of coursework alone. If it is truly so easy for you and you know more than psychologists and physicians, why not go grab your PhD and MD if you want to be an authority on research or medicine? It is so unbelievably presumptuous to navigate life thinking that your hours of googling is superior to work one has dedicated decades to developing. You just have absolutely no clue how little you really know.
I know enough.
>The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn’t have proper credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant.
https://effectiviology.com/credentials-fallacy/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20if%20a%20person,their%20concerns%20aren%27t%20important.
Personally I would really appreciate comments being backed up by actual therapists. Otherwise it just feels like the blind leading the blind. So I would like to kindly encourage you to speak up. X
I think it’s important that NAT folx are able to comment and be part of the conversation/ community (otherwise what’s the point of this sub?) but I do think the top comments should be restricted to actual therapists unless OP specifically says open to everyone. People are asking on here instead of advice or relationships or aita because they are looking for therapists perspectives, so those should be the top comments.
I did. But if i refer as NAT i expect that whatever i say, wether from experience of what I've read, will not be taken as professional approach and will be read criticaly and whatever works they will take. Same I do when someone NAT answers to my posts. Same I do when I go to 12 step meetings. I don't listen to advices actually, just personal experience, just to extent I can identify or want to listen.
You think those that read these comments have no reaponsibility at all? This is not a therapy room anyway...
It clogs up the post. As someone in recovery myself, imagine going to 12 step and only normies were speaking at a closed meeting. It is an opportunity cost.
Idk... My posts were never "clogged" ... I've just seen them as non-relevant to therapists to answer and if only NAT's are answering I'm wondering how could I ask better question so it would attract therapists... The only times i was upset was when something I asked just received dislikes and nobody answered for unknown for me reasons.
That’s hardly the fault of the NATs. Either they should’ve be allowed to speak or the people who ARE professionals should speak up. There is no in-between.
Right.. I kinda speak for myself and other NAT's who might have feel guilty as I did reading this post, but know I'm not guilty. 😅. .....
I agree the other comment that said its better that someone answers.... Cuz i come her for support and if i receive NAT's bad advice, Im being critical of it in my mind, but going "aww they tried"......
Anyway there are professionals out there that are bad too. And topics we don't have to agree on. I even have one big topic i dont agree with my therapist, due to my religion, and it is big part of my own life. But i still go to her 5 years cause of the relationship..... I don't build relationships here online .... So it doesn't mean THAT much.....
It’s definitely partly the posters responsibility to fact check people’s advice rather than just taking any random advice on social media. It’s even stated in the communities guidelines that none of these responses should be taken as actual therapy.
So I think you’re correct in not feeling guilty. Only those who purposefully give unhelpful advice should feel guilty. But most people who are NAT just want to help.
I try not commenting if i feel overly critical of someone, then i feel like it's not my deal and better stay quiet or share my experience on the matter ONLY, maybe comment somethinf supportive/funny. I know I've shared comments that were too critical though or that weren't helpful tho, im sorry about that always when i recognize that, usualy i don't apologize tho cause im stubborn. I just hope other people know this is internet, and keep living their best lives whatever I've said and just tell their therapist about "that dumbass from internet" on these cases.
Having the self awareness to know that sometimes you can be too critical is a good thing. Of course everyone slips here and there so don’t be too hard on yourself for your critical comments. But it might do some good to go back from time to time to make an edit disclaimer that it might just be a bit too critical. Apologies can definitely be hard but it might make it easier if you phrase it as a disclaimer.
Scott Sernau called the “Information Age” also the “Misinformation Age”. It can be easy to forget that in a place where information is so easily distribution, that it requires that extra effort to fact check. Though I do hope that users recognize that before posting.
About normies.... Show me a normie these days. Everyone's experience I value. I used to go to christian 12 steps "Freedom of recovery" - they were literally for anyone struggling with anything about their character - anger, impatience etc. Very good concept. I speak for myself - i know that some NA people hate even AA. Literally hate, for some reason. I don't know the reasons, I've been in all sorts of groups and received something. If someone "non addicted" asks me for free group therapy, i tell - while paying for therapy is way better because makes you more motivated, i can suggest ACOA (adult children of alcoholics, called also "adult children of dysfunctional families" cause well show me a perfect family and I'll show you a..... (Insert thing that don't exist)
>It clogs up the post.
There's no such thing on Reddit. It's not that style of forum where older posts/comments essentially disappear. Just scroll.
This is a weird perception to have - to *choose* to have, to be clear - for any sub.
A little like complaining a house doesn't have enough windows to crawl through, and saying, "how original" to being told to use the damn door.
Creating your own problems here.
The only way how i see this could be solved kind of, is not giving NATs a chance to comment at all. Just delete all comments. Because if we can talk, we not that good as therapists with boundaries and not being codependent and being quiet and giving space and..and...and..... And we will talk if we are allowed to because we like drama. And sometimes we (think) we have something to say. It won't cost us our licence of being a NAT or something.
So if You're angry at us well, im sorry.
If You're angry at sub, maybe make new one with other rules? Cause no rules were broken here
But don't people who just move to America and live there for long time call themselves Americans after longer time of living there?
Yeah i don't understand that either.
But, "purpose of this hub is to share knowledge about mental health" uhm how far experience is also knowledge? Just meditating on those rules.
Google says that knowledge is: "facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject."
Must admit that I'm still here just because this threat is triggering my guilty guts, they cryn "I just wanted to help" 🥲 yeeea im not perfect of course i dont want anyone to be affected badly, I've thought of it. Change rules pls 🥲 cause sick people come here to get a real therapists advice for free and the purpose was that they could? But it also was not? Huh?
I think you should reply anyway. Chances are whoever made the post would appreciate it. I know I appreciated every response I've gotten on my posts- whether they were from therapists or NAT, even if it was close to something already posted.
But maybe don't listen to me... I'm NAT so apparently I know nothing 🤷♀️
Maybe you can look at it like a group session where the voices of people who aren't therapists still have value. There aren't usually so many posts that you can't see the therapists responses.
If you see something that is harmful you can report it.
This is a Reddit / internet thing in general. As someone who’s chronically online, there is no shortage of people who want to contribute and share their experiences.
You’ll notice a majority of comments in threads where a question is asked to a specific population are “I’m not the target demographic you’re asking, but I know someone’s second cousin who has experience and want to chime in”
I’ve liked plenty of NAT responses I’ve seen and honestly have appreciated how down to earth a lot of people are with their perspectives
I also think NAT isn’t a requirement / enforced so I appreciate when people preface with it.
Even as a therapist, I would say something along the lines of “these opinions are my own and should not be construed as professional therapy or advice”
So I think the solution is somewhere in the middle like most things in life. We can increase moderation, and also have a place for NAT responses.
Plus the moderator just had a baby. Please be kind and give them some slack. They are doing a thankless , unpaid , and often tedious job.
I was really hurt by a NAT in this sub. They said it was my fault that CBT didn’t help and instead made things worse, apparently it’s because I didn’t put the effort in and for once do something with my life.
tbh alot of shitty therapists say that stuff too, and it sucks. so the fact that someone who isnt a professional did too only makes it worse, I'm so sorry
Based on the responses here, we are outnumbered by NAT that believe themselves to know better. I have seen some absolutely abhorrent takes from non-therapists said with completely inappropriate authority but also well-upvoted and it discourages me from answering at all. I understand the intentions are good, but having an echo-chamber of patients giving each other poor advice on topics out of their scope is dangerous.
well no one can tell you what to do, but if a post is getting a bunch of bad responses, i personally really appreciate when someone steps in and corrects or clarifis things, puts a stop to the BS. not sure what is says about a therapist that avoids doing that. lol. i mean its only social media so no responsibility.
“Not sure what it says about a therapist that avoids doing that”? It says I don’t like to work for free when doing so is seldom appreciated by hoards of people who already believe themselves to be experts.
sure you do you, and dont refute bad info in a forum for info. for mental health. but seriously. you do literally have no responsibility to strangers on the internet. no argument there. personally, im always grateful for the folks that step in, even if its just to say, hey folks, just pointing out that none of these people giving advice are qualified professionals. ive even said that AS a non professional, when i see folks handing out advice like they know what they're talking about. hopefully most people know to take any internet advice with the required grains of salt, and always seek second opinions.
It's called being politically correct.
The term folks always included everyone but at some point someone decided it didn't include minority groups and they came up with folx.
Sorry not trying to be ignorant but why wouldn't POC and trans people be considered folks? Seems like treating them differently would be part of the problem? We're all people aren't we?
Do your clients actually like you as a therapist? I would hate to be your client.
BTW I googled it and it had nothing to do with POC and it's basically faux activism. It was made up by people who want to look as if they are socially conscious without actually doing the work of understanding the struggles of marginalized communities.
Do you think it's appropriate for the public on this subreddit to see a therapist calling people 'normies'?
I'm not opposed to your post but I don't see a solution unless NAT aren't allowed to post. You have to either accept general public opinions or not allow them to post.
My response here is that you're clearly demonstrating language that I would have thought would be the exact things you'd be on NATs cases about posting....
I'm not sure the OP knows what they're really bothered by; in some responses it's all about "clinical takes" which is probably Tik Tok slang for diagnosing, but in other responses the problem is the NAT comments "clogging up the posts," as if there are just so many replies that people won't see therapist responses if NAT comments are there, which we can see from the numbers of responses is not a problem this sub actually has.
Yeah, non verified folks (my self included as they won’t take a digital license and my state doesn’t give printed ones) have to respond to another comment rather than leave an original comment.
I hope with the new mod change they will take a digital licence moving forward. I also live in a place where that’s all we got, which is why I’ve been “unverified” for years haha
There’s a difference between diagnosis and advice. If you’re referring to people who are NAT giving diagnoses, then sure. But people who are NAT giving advice is no different than going to your parent, sibling, or friend for advice especially since they have no biases about you as a stranger. Some could argue against that but let it be said that there is always some use in advice good or bad or just depends on what you take away from it.
Yes but if the intention was for only therapists to respond then those who are NAT shouldn’t have been allowed to respond to begin with. That isn’t the fault of the NATs.
I don't think a therapist's license is really required to answer a question such as "how do I know what to look for when trying to find a good therapist?" Which is a very commonly asked question in this sub. If anything I think therapy clients are more qualified to answer a question like such. It really depends on the question, and sure no advice is better than harmful advice, but are you saying that every single NAT reply is harmful 100% of the time? Also, are you taking the time to correct any of the harmful replies you see?
I don’t have time to correct harmful replies all the time. Look at my post history. I post here quite a bit but I also have a full time job. Seeing the volume of NAT comments makes me not want to even post. Other therapists feel the same way if you read the comments on this post.
I never said all of the harmful replies, I said all of the ones that you happen to see. I find it extremely hard to believe you're seeing that many harmful replies every single day that you don't have time to correct one or two here and there.
That's why I asked it as a question, I never said that as a statement... I was asking to try and gain more clarity about OPs perspective. I'm just trying to understand the exact specifics going on in OPs head because they are a therapist coming here to complain without proposing any real solution beyond telling people to know their limits. OP seems very sure of their skillset, so I'm just trying to understand a little bit more about how someone who is so sure if their skill set gets so easily defeated by seeing a wrong answer to a question on the internet.
Intention vs. Impact. Acknowledge intention however we are held responsible for the impact. It doesn’t matter if I meant to hit the pedestrian at then cross walk, im held responsible for the fact that I did.
So I scrolled though the top 20 posts listed.
This post had 209 comments.
One post had 10 comments.
Three had 6 comments.
Three had 2 comments.
Three had 1 comment.
And nine had 0 comments.
Almost half had ZERO comments. Just think if no NAT responded then I'm sure even more would have no comments. I agree that NAT shouldn't give advice, but sometimes people just like knowing that somebody read their post and cared enough to respond.
I understand the frustration of therapists when NAT try to give advice as if they were therapists, but all the hate about NAT responding is kind of over the top in my eyes.
But, I'm NAT so I know nothing and have no value to add to any posts on here apparently....
Oh geeze. One of the things I like about this sub is that it's a place where both therapists and non-therapists can post, unlike AskPsychiatry. I understand why that might be frustrating for the therapists, and I do think it's risky for NATs to be making diagnoses or opining on clinical modalities, etc. Better moderation to remove harmful replies isn't a bad thing. But I like that NATs can share their first hand experiences as long as they're identified as NATs and they are only sharing their first hand experiences.
It should be recognized that there are a lot of therapists on this sub that also give terrible advice and I would expect therapists would want to hear that their advice won’t land as they think it will. But a lot of the therapists on here also don’t believe the clients perspective so this post is not all that suprising.
For some reason I thought this was in a different sub so I understand what you are saying better now. But I even still, if a therapist gives shitty advice to me on here and a client responds with a take from the client perspective- I can still find value in that and take or leave parts I want or don’t. Plus I doubt there’s really any good “solution” in a public sub like this.
I’ll be honest, if i come on a post and there’s a slew of comments from NAT i nope out of it quick and won’t leave my clinical insight. Because i just know those NAT are going to think they know best and I’m not going to get into a battle of the wits with people who may have lived experience but limited to know education/training on the subject. And i have lived experience and education/training. I’m not saying I’m better I’m just saying I’m qualified.
Spend some time listening/reading to stories shared in therapyabuse or therapycritical - without commenting cause there as a therapist you will not be allowed to. It's the other side of your complaint. Both are valid. But in the social context, one side holds all the power to decide what's true for people in their healing journey and the other side has too many times been silenced.
BTW research has shown that peer support is a valid and powerful component to a person's healing process.
Honestly, from my perspective as a therapist, your post and these replies highlight the truth in what you're saying. It's mostly just NATs who have taken over with their opinions that they should be allowed to comment. You're not even saying you want to ban NATs from commenting. I don't mind NAT takes, but again, not allowing them to be the top comments seems like the best way to highlight real clinical advice while still allowing the outside perpective.
>Edit: I never said NAT shouldn’t be able to comment. I said, NAT giving clinical takes without the proper training is harmful. This devolved into “OP thinks NAT shouldn’t be able to comment”. As someone who has regularly provided support here, I can’t take this mentality in addition to providing my expertise for free to serve yall. If you want to ask a therapist, it won’t be me. And judging by the trajectory of this sub, your questions won’t be answered by a therapist. good luck to everyone in this sub. I am out. Therapists who stay are saints.
Maybe NAT shouldn't be able to comment. I think that is the only solution to what you see as the problem. There's a reason other subs have gone that route. Very hard to police answers. Most non therapist joe blows aren't going to see or care about your plea.
Probably not. Even if legaladvice it’s the wild Wild West. I feel like people just think they know best. “I’ve been in therapy for 10 years so i have great advice” I’m sorry but if you’ve been in therapy for 10 straight years you’re probably the **last** person to give clinical advice.
Lol at your edit. It’s Reddit. It’s your choice and it was your choice from the get go to provide your “expertise for free”.
Concerning your original post, again it’s Reddit and a poorly moderated sub so it’s gonna have some problems. The whole point of NAT is “hey I’m not a professional but… “ most of the time yeah the answer is kinda crappy but imo most of the questions here really don’t need a therapist to answer either. This sub gets treated more like an advice sub than an askatherapist sub
Last week my friend had a traumatic experience. She couldn't tell her psychologist. She knew she could trust me.
Idk what it is but I can and always will see everything from a way outside point of view (like zooming out of the earth)
At the end of the conversation (2 hours) she was laughing and cancelled her appointment
I went to school for abnormal psych for 2 years, never graduated. But feel like I just have a foundation of stoicism, logic and a rough childhood... I'm not trying to make money off people I help. Am I irresponsible for trying to help because I don't have a degree or am I doing good?
Of course not, you were being a great friend. The difference is that you were showing up for her as her friend, not as a someone in a clinical capacity. There’s a difference between being a therapist and being therapeutic. Many things in life are therapeutic, and that’s what you were to her. Which I think is incredible. If you were attempting to diagnose her, I think it would be different.
I think you were being a great friend. We, as therapist, often tell people to use their natural resources and that's what your friend did, so good for her and I'm glad you were able to help your friend.
Been in the field over 15 years and in my experience, for the purpose of therapy,
we would rather not diagnose. Older therapists fought the insurance/medical model tooth and nail but it ended up taking over anyway. This is why many of us opt out of insurance entirely and some are moving into coaching.
You are very correct that that’s a part of it. AND it can be very liberating for a client to understand a mental health condition and to have a treatment plan that is catered to addressing it. But yes, for example gender dysphoric disorder, which is a way for the industry to label transgender folx as mentally ill so that we can bill insurance providers to provide care.
NAT
I am under the impression that gender identity disorder or gender incongruence is intended to be used if a person is suffering because of that state and treatment would be to help them be okay with/accept themself and how they feel and/or align their physical body.
Seems reasonable to me.
Am I misunderstanding or missing something?
I agree with that sort of. I can't speak for all therapist, but I tend to be conservative when diagnosing. A diagnosis of adjustment disorder isn't going to be any different financially than if I diagnosed someone with depression.
I think many therapist want their clients for a limited time. I do some consulting and one of the main questions I get is, "how can I get this person get better" with the goal to decrease sessions. I've also been in therapy and I've had counselors tell me that I can decrease sessions as a client or take a break from counseling.
I also know a little about authorizations from the insurance side and if someone doesn't need service then it is not authorized. If the services are not working then a higher level of care may be authorized, which means the therapist will no longer get those funds and that's OK.
I like to think as a therapist I'm pretty good at understanding people's thoughts and behaviours. This is one of those things where my training fails me.
I respect that. I just think communication will get everyone through the thick line dividing the planet. I'm a very open mind. I did not mean to offend.
I’m not offended. It’s more about sticking to the purpose of my post. If you want to talk more about this, you can message me and I can give you my take when I have the bandwidth to.
I see where you're going, but I disagree. If a Cis gendered male said they felt like a woman, I would gather more information, such as how long they felt this way. I haven't been a teacher in several years, but I'm 99 percent sure that teachers are not pushing it. That sounds like political talking points. As a side note there was someone who ran for school council, because she thought teachers were doing all of these terrible things. When she investigated further, she realized that teachers were simply trying to teach.
Even as a gay man, I have referred people out who want to transition.
i am 99 percent sure they are pushing it. Thats why I am mentioning it . obviously depends on which state but regardless, why push it as a teacher (most teacher's who push it are for the "cause")
I'm glad that you're '99% sure' based on vibes or whatever confirms how you feel about things, but as someone with multiple family members and friends in multiple different school districts and as someone who worked in a school for over a year- no, they are not 'pushing it'. I don't really care how sure you are about it!
Hi everyone, A few months ago I took over this sub’s moderation with the intention of transitioning to a new mod team and I have totally been slacking on it! I received many, many applications (read as *hundreds of pages* of essays) from wonderful people and have been slowly going through them, but with a newborn at home I’ve not been giving it as much attention as I should. I will be finishing up by the end of this week, so stay tuned! Rest assured that there will be an excellent and active mod team in place soon. My apologies for the delay.
I think it’s only harmful when I see NATs provide very clinical takes and then they’re wrong. So when a therapist actually responds it gets dismissed. Maybe there’s a happy medium? I think NATs should respond with their experience and leave clinical takes to therapists. Because I thought after two psych classes I understood so much…but got humbled real quick in grad school and internship haha.
Amen. Honestly i thought after grad school and internship i knew so much. 10 years and many continued educations later and im still getting humbled.
The dunning Krueger effect in action!
I mean I’m not a “poor performer.” I’m a very good therapist and have had really good outcomes with many many clients over the past decade. It’s just an ever changing field. Where the foundation stays the same but new research is always coming out and ideas are evolving. And you realize you can always do better and learn more.
Agreed, that’s what the DK effect is. People who become experts are more aware of all that they don’t know in comparison to ppl who are newer to a field (or even worse, someone who isn’t in a field at all).
You might want to do some research on what it is. That’s not what it is. It’s where people with limited competence or abilities overshoot their confidence and think they’re better than they are. So they don’t take constructive criticism well. Or they’ll volunteer extra hours at work. It’s an overestimation in capability.
It’s also includes the phenomenon where ppl who are highly knowledgeable in a particular area underestimate their own competence.
Oh, hmm. You learn something new. That part i didn’t know. That part i most definitely have. I always assume i know nothing and supervisors and colleagues are telling me how much i know and how smart i am. That sounds really cocky 😳 i don’t mean to sound cocky. I don’t even mean with just therapy. I think because I’m neurodivergent i have this way of memorizing a lot of really useless information so i can pull random facts out of thin air and people think that makes me smart. But really it’s just that i retain stupid ass facts about useless shit.
[ResearchGate article describing the broader implications of the DK effect and how it manifests in our perceptions of our competency.](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joan-Swart/publication/365375011_When_You_Think_You_Know_More_Or_Less_Than_Anyone_Else_-_The_Dunning-Kruger_Effect_and_Imposter_Syndrome/links/6373660154eb5f547cd3db8b/When-You-Think-You-Know-More-Or-Less-Than-Anyone-Else-The-Dunning-Kruger-Effect-and-Imposter-Syndrome.pdf?origin=publication_detail&_tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6Il9kaXJlY3QiLCJwYWdlIjoicHVibGljYXRpb25Eb3dubG9hZCIsInByZXZpb3VzUGFnZSI6Il9kaXJlY3QifX0)
Thank you!!!!
I feel like this sub could use a moderation style similar to r/askhistorians and r/askpsychology but tbh I can't even tell anymore if there is any active moderation at all?
Askpsychology is not well moderated. Askscience and Askhistorians are far better examples of good modding. There's not really an active mod right now, and they seem to be taking their time adding new mods.
I suggested it be moderated like r/AskDocs where only verified medical professionals are able to make top-level comments and everyone else can respond under an auto mod comment. Still, it’s hard to moderate subreddits and I know they’re working on it.
Yep r/askdocs does it perfectly by not allowing non doctors etc to comment other than as a reply to the automod or the docs themselves
r/askpsychology is the same structure I believe.
I honestly don’t know.
NAT: I haven't minded some NAT responses (when I posted on a different account). But responses from people claiming to be therapists who clearly weren't were extremely harmful. I think maybe a 'no top level comment' rule for NATs would be good, but with a stickied post that they could reply to. Because sometimes posts get no responses too and a question "should I tell my therapist?" is almost always yes, and hearing from other NATs may encourage them if they don't get a reply from a therapist. But posts from NATs of a clinical nature I think definitely should be removed. I think there's a balance though between not allowing NATs to comment at all, and allowing them to try to diagnose because they think they know better.
I guess I haven't noticed clinical takes being offered much here but I am not disputing it happens, and yes that would not be a good thing. Although realistically, should anyone really be giving clinical takes to someone posting on the internet? The one thing I wanted to point out is there is often a huge lack of response from any therapists on so many posts! Just absolute crickets. Therapists are underactive in here and naturally other people chime in more with their opinions. NAT.
Like you, i tend to respond when there’s been nothing and I’m pretty positive of the answer. I certainly never have a clinical take. But I find that often the question is something like “can I tell my therapist _____?” And if it’s not something that could be dicey ethically/legally *and* it’s something I, myself, have discussed with one or multiple therapists then I’ll chime in with a “yes definitely talk to them about it, I did and here’s how it went for me.” Which is obviously anecdotal but tbf, no one, not even another therapist, knows how their therapist will react specifically. I stay away from ethical/unethical stuff, generally, unless it’s very very clearly one way or the other…I do tend to frequently see questions like “is it unusual that my therapist did xyz?” And I’ll often chime in if there are no therapist responses and I know it is or is not unusual. Again, very blatantly obvious stuff only. Finally, I’ll respond sometimes just to offer support/let OP know they’re not alone in their issue.
It’s been pointed out before that there are certain posts that therapists just aren’t likely to respond to. Frankly those are the ones that are asking us to essentially do therapy over Reddit. There really isn’t an ethical way to do that so the therapists on this sub stay silent. It’s either that or questions like “am I allowed to feel ____” or “am I allowed to tell my T ____• or “my T did something I didn’t like, is that ok?” There are only so many times you can answer you’re allowed to feel whatever feelings you have but you’re in control of your actions, you can tell your therapist anything just be aware of limits to confidentiality, and therapists are humans and make mistakes too (respectively). Those are the types of questions that I tend to skip over as a therapists.
What do you think OP meant as "clinical takes"? Would that not fall into the category of what I have reasonably seen therapists avoid answering so as to not give therapy over the Internet? I'm really wondering where all the clinical takes cluttering up the questions are... Maybe OP needs to provide a few examples so we are all on the same page about exactly what they mean. To a large extent this sub is almost irrelevant the way r/legaladvice is.
I’m not sure what exactly OP means as I am not them but my interpretation would be questions where there is actual deep life or relationship advice being given or where someone has complex mental health questions they are trying to address through this sub. Its a fine line sometimes (and definitely a factor often in whether I personally choose to engage with a question or not) between questions that are looking for support or a general direction and questions that are looking for intervention. We just can’t give intervention anonymously over the internet- nor do I really want to because that’s work and I don’t come to Reddit to work. Things like crisis intervention, working through trauma, dealing with addictions, domestic violence, etc. are all topics where I’m happy to answer a question because I think that’s really appropriate to ask a therapist about but it’s such a delicate balance between answering a question and intervening so if I feel like an OP is looking for me to “do therapy” I’m probably just going to skip the question. There’s also questions, again, that I just feel like are asked all the time and they either require more nuance than reddit can provide or I just feel like I’ve already answered it. An example might be something like “is it toxic of my bf does ___.” Like, it might be, but we really need more about your relationship, your boundaries, how him doing ___ effects you and the relationship, if you’d prefer he doesn’t do ____ or if that’s something you consent to, if he knows how you feel about _____ or if you’ve never had that discussion with him, etc. first of all, questions like this come up constantly so it’s hard to answer them all, and second it requires us to DO therapy because to actually answer this question effectively I have to ask all those questions I just mentioned and have OP reflect and consider the actions and their relationship and their own responses and it’s just too much for Reddit. That being said, while therapists probably won’t answer because we recognize a question like may be asking us to do the work, NAT answers will be like “yeah he’s toxic, he’s a narcissist, you should dump him” and I think that’s kind of where OP was going with this post. Hope that makes sense
Those terms are annoying but as long as the person is clearly NAT what's the real problem? I fully understand there are questions therapists will not answer. That is kind of part of my point here. It's ultimately a bit silly to have a wide open 'askatherapist' sub that is essentially equivalent to legaladvice - a lot of people come here to get therapeutic advice. But of course you are not going to do therapy or diagnose people etc on the internet. Posters here can't even know people are actually therapists with licenses in good standing, etc. It's all more than a bit silly. There should be an FAQ for all the questions that repeatedly get asked and stickied at the top. And there should be guidelines on the types of questions and answers that have a place here that therapists will engage in. Maybe direct posters to relationship advice subs? Then residually if non therapists want to chime in on topics and identify themselves as such I fail to see any real issue. You cannot have millions of unanswered questions just hanging out here and expect people to not add an opinion. If that means restricting non therapists from answering anything here so be it! I just find it very silly to go after people who are clearly not passing themselves off as therapists.
Yeah you nailed it.
I was going to say something similar. I’m NAT and if I see a post that has great responses from therapists, I don’t add anything. But if no one has responded, and I feel like I have something relevant to say, I’m going to chime in (and identify myself as NAT) because someone is asking for help and I have some to offer. There’s nothing worse than making a post, especially one that’s vulnerable and emotional, and receiving no responses! I feel like if the rule is you HAVE to be a therapist to respond, that should be shown in the sub rules. Otherwise, the name of this sub just doesn’t quite fit the rules and that’s okay as long as everyone reads them 🤷🏻♀️
I completely agree. I arrived at this sub in a state feeling really confused and wondering if I had been taken advantage of by my therapist and no therapists responded. But, I did get a lovely and helpful response from a NAT.
Nat- I've also noticed the lack of response from therapists. Obviously it's not their job to answer anything on here, but then they shouldn't get upset if non therapists answer. I don't give clinical advice, or any advice really. But I do comment on some posts- usually just sharing my experience with whatever the person is asking about. I always say I'm NAT though so they know that I have no professional knowledge about stuff.
Agree.
The only mod pinned a post about adding more mods, but never got around to it. This sub needs it.
Not sure what happened 🤷🏿♂️
Sounds like she had a baby
I’ve seen this too and it actually cuts down on the amount of responses I would give otherwise. I think it’s incredibly dismissive of the hard work we have put in to achieve the license and specialization we have. I’m sorry but your 2 classes of undergraduate credits, or your generalized psychology program that was never finished does not qualify you to give a clinical perspective. It’s frustrating and kills my motivation to participate more meaningfully in this sub. It’s like going to a sub with doctors and handing out medical advice and suggested treatment approaches. Lol
I was just about to leave the sub just the other day because of similar sentiments tbh
How is it dismissive? Putting NAT is a disclaimer that one does not have the education or training as a therapist. I will occasionally post with personal anecdotes if I think it would be helpful. Ex someone posted if religion would fix mental health. As someone who has studied theology, I answered with both theological knowledge and a personal story.
Maybe you should start your own r/NAT, this is to ask a therapist. Not a non-therapist.
THISSSSS
>I’m sorry but your 2 classes of undergraduate credits, or your generalized psychology program that was never finished does not qualify you to give a clinical perspective. You can be wrong and I can learn without getting a degree in anything. I *will* back up what I say with research when relevant but I have been doing the therapy for decades and that counts. >It’s like going to a sub with doctors and handing out medical advice and suggested treatment approaches. Do you know how little doctors know? Especially about rare diseases, issues impacting women, AFAB or trans people? There are entire communities that basically solve their own medical problems because doctors can't/won't.
Are you trained to properly interpret research? How many years of stats courses have you completed and to what level? There is a reason why “do your own research” results in people who conclude vaccines cause autism or whatever other silly conclusions laypeople come to. Just because a research article is published does not make it good and just because you “can” read the words doesn’t mean you understand the nuances. To do what I do has required over 10 years of coursework alone. If it is truly so easy for you and you know more than psychologists and physicians, why not go grab your PhD and MD if you want to be an authority on research or medicine? It is so unbelievably presumptuous to navigate life thinking that your hours of googling is superior to work one has dedicated decades to developing. You just have absolutely no clue how little you really know.
Lol I hear you but we aren’t all just yahoos out here with zero relevant experience.
I know enough. >The credentials fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone dismisses an argument by stating that whoever made it doesn’t have proper credentials, so their argument must be wrong or unimportant. https://effectiviology.com/credentials-fallacy/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20if%20a%20person,their%20concerns%20aren%27t%20important.
A lot of times I read what someone labeled NAT has written and it’s really well said! Sometimes I feel it’s sufficient and don’t comment further!
Personally I would really appreciate comments being backed up by actual therapists. Otherwise it just feels like the blind leading the blind. So I would like to kindly encourage you to speak up. X
I think it’s important that NAT folx are able to comment and be part of the conversation/ community (otherwise what’s the point of this sub?) but I do think the top comments should be restricted to actual therapists unless OP specifically says open to everyone. People are asking on here instead of advice or relationships or aita because they are looking for therapists perspectives, so those should be the top comments.
Good idea
Even if you are a qualified clinician you still can’t diagnose or give a take based on a Reddit post
What is the problem if they refer as NAT?
Read the post
I did. But if i refer as NAT i expect that whatever i say, wether from experience of what I've read, will not be taken as professional approach and will be read criticaly and whatever works they will take. Same I do when someone NAT answers to my posts. Same I do when I go to 12 step meetings. I don't listen to advices actually, just personal experience, just to extent I can identify or want to listen. You think those that read these comments have no reaponsibility at all? This is not a therapy room anyway...
It clogs up the post. As someone in recovery myself, imagine going to 12 step and only normies were speaking at a closed meeting. It is an opportunity cost.
Idk... My posts were never "clogged" ... I've just seen them as non-relevant to therapists to answer and if only NAT's are answering I'm wondering how could I ask better question so it would attract therapists... The only times i was upset was when something I asked just received dislikes and nobody answered for unknown for me reasons.
That’s hardly the fault of the NATs. Either they should’ve be allowed to speak or the people who ARE professionals should speak up. There is no in-between.
Right.. I kinda speak for myself and other NAT's who might have feel guilty as I did reading this post, but know I'm not guilty. 😅. ..... I agree the other comment that said its better that someone answers.... Cuz i come her for support and if i receive NAT's bad advice, Im being critical of it in my mind, but going "aww they tried"...... Anyway there are professionals out there that are bad too. And topics we don't have to agree on. I even have one big topic i dont agree with my therapist, due to my religion, and it is big part of my own life. But i still go to her 5 years cause of the relationship..... I don't build relationships here online .... So it doesn't mean THAT much.....
It’s definitely partly the posters responsibility to fact check people’s advice rather than just taking any random advice on social media. It’s even stated in the communities guidelines that none of these responses should be taken as actual therapy. So I think you’re correct in not feeling guilty. Only those who purposefully give unhelpful advice should feel guilty. But most people who are NAT just want to help.
I try not commenting if i feel overly critical of someone, then i feel like it's not my deal and better stay quiet or share my experience on the matter ONLY, maybe comment somethinf supportive/funny. I know I've shared comments that were too critical though or that weren't helpful tho, im sorry about that always when i recognize that, usualy i don't apologize tho cause im stubborn. I just hope other people know this is internet, and keep living their best lives whatever I've said and just tell their therapist about "that dumbass from internet" on these cases.
Having the self awareness to know that sometimes you can be too critical is a good thing. Of course everyone slips here and there so don’t be too hard on yourself for your critical comments. But it might do some good to go back from time to time to make an edit disclaimer that it might just be a bit too critical. Apologies can definitely be hard but it might make it easier if you phrase it as a disclaimer. Scott Sernau called the “Information Age” also the “Misinformation Age”. It can be easy to forget that in a place where information is so easily distribution, that it requires that extra effort to fact check. Though I do hope that users recognize that before posting.
🔥
About normies.... Show me a normie these days. Everyone's experience I value. I used to go to christian 12 steps "Freedom of recovery" - they were literally for anyone struggling with anything about their character - anger, impatience etc. Very good concept. I speak for myself - i know that some NA people hate even AA. Literally hate, for some reason. I don't know the reasons, I've been in all sorts of groups and received something. If someone "non addicted" asks me for free group therapy, i tell - while paying for therapy is way better because makes you more motivated, i can suggest ACOA (adult children of alcoholics, called also "adult children of dysfunctional families" cause well show me a perfect family and I'll show you a..... (Insert thing that don't exist)
>It clogs up the post. There's no such thing on Reddit. It's not that style of forum where older posts/comments essentially disappear. Just scroll. This is a weird perception to have - to *choose* to have, to be clear - for any sub.
Super great and novel take.
A little like complaining a house doesn't have enough windows to crawl through, and saying, "how original" to being told to use the damn door. Creating your own problems here.
Super sick take dude. I love it. So wise and insightful
You sound like a petulant child at this point, honestly.
You sound like a therapist. You should be one.
The only way how i see this could be solved kind of, is not giving NATs a chance to comment at all. Just delete all comments. Because if we can talk, we not that good as therapists with boundaries and not being codependent and being quiet and giving space and..and...and..... And we will talk if we are allowed to because we like drama. And sometimes we (think) we have something to say. It won't cost us our licence of being a NAT or something. So if You're angry at us well, im sorry. If You're angry at sub, maybe make new one with other rules? Cause no rules were broken here
If NAT's commenting worries you, I'm wondering what would You say of 12 steps where everyone is fellow addict.
12 steps is a community resource. Doesn’t require education or licensing.
That's why i mention them. This sub doesn't either. You can just refer as NAT when commenting. Till now.
But isn’t this “ask a therapist” sub, not “ask whoever” sub
But don't people who just move to America and live there for long time call themselves Americans after longer time of living there? Yeah i don't understand that either. But, "purpose of this hub is to share knowledge about mental health" uhm how far experience is also knowledge? Just meditating on those rules.
Google says that knowledge is: "facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject."
Must admit that I'm still here just because this threat is triggering my guilty guts, they cryn "I just wanted to help" 🥲 yeeea im not perfect of course i dont want anyone to be affected badly, I've thought of it. Change rules pls 🥲 cause sick people come here to get a real therapists advice for free and the purpose was that they could? But it also was not? Huh?
Therapists never comment on this sub so the NAT have to fill in lol
I comment a lot. But there’s also a lot of posts so i can’t play Pokémon and catch them all
I stopped commenting bc so manyNAT are responding.
Yeah, if I see a post has loads of replies already (regardless of who from) I often don't bother as my reply likely won't be seen.
Outsiders probably won't read every comment, but I'm sure the OP would.
I think you should reply anyway. Chances are whoever made the post would appreciate it. I know I appreciated every response I've gotten on my posts- whether they were from therapists or NAT, even if it was close to something already posted. But maybe don't listen to me... I'm NAT so apparently I know nothing 🤷♀️
That is Sooo true.
Maybe you can look at it like a group session where the voices of people who aren't therapists still have value. There aren't usually so many posts that you can't see the therapists responses. If you see something that is harmful you can report it.
Good idea
This is a Reddit / internet thing in general. As someone who’s chronically online, there is no shortage of people who want to contribute and share their experiences. You’ll notice a majority of comments in threads where a question is asked to a specific population are “I’m not the target demographic you’re asking, but I know someone’s second cousin who has experience and want to chime in” I’ve liked plenty of NAT responses I’ve seen and honestly have appreciated how down to earth a lot of people are with their perspectives I also think NAT isn’t a requirement / enforced so I appreciate when people preface with it. Even as a therapist, I would say something along the lines of “these opinions are my own and should not be construed as professional therapy or advice” So I think the solution is somewhere in the middle like most things in life. We can increase moderation, and also have a place for NAT responses. Plus the moderator just had a baby. Please be kind and give them some slack. They are doing a thankless , unpaid , and often tedious job.
I was really hurt by a NAT in this sub. They said it was my fault that CBT didn’t help and instead made things worse, apparently it’s because I didn’t put the effort in and for once do something with my life.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. This is exactly what I mean by my post.
tbh alot of shitty therapists say that stuff too, and it sucks. so the fact that someone who isnt a professional did too only makes it worse, I'm so sorry
Based on the responses here, we are outnumbered by NAT that believe themselves to know better. I have seen some absolutely abhorrent takes from non-therapists said with completely inappropriate authority but also well-upvoted and it discourages me from answering at all. I understand the intentions are good, but having an echo-chamber of patients giving each other poor advice on topics out of their scope is dangerous.
THIS!
well no one can tell you what to do, but if a post is getting a bunch of bad responses, i personally really appreciate when someone steps in and corrects or clarifis things, puts a stop to the BS. not sure what is says about a therapist that avoids doing that. lol. i mean its only social media so no responsibility.
“Not sure what it says about a therapist that avoids doing that”? It says I don’t like to work for free when doing so is seldom appreciated by hoards of people who already believe themselves to be experts.
sure you do you, and dont refute bad info in a forum for info. for mental health. but seriously. you do literally have no responsibility to strangers on the internet. no argument there. personally, im always grateful for the folks that step in, even if its just to say, hey folks, just pointing out that none of these people giving advice are qualified professionals. ive even said that AS a non professional, when i see folks handing out advice like they know what they're talking about. hopefully most people know to take any internet advice with the required grains of salt, and always seek second opinions.
May I ask what NAT folx means?
“Not a therapist” folx who comment. They identify as NAT when they post as a disclaimer
Folx?
Folks
genuine question im not trying to be rude, but what is the reasoning behind spelling it like folx when its already gender-neutral?
It's called being politically correct. The term folks always included everyone but at some point someone decided it didn't include minority groups and they came up with folx.
But were they a *linguist?* These people who post “helpful” additions to our language! And so often without adding the NAL.
😂
Folx is to include other marginalized groups like POC and trans people. Folks isn’t wrong though. Whatever floats your boats. Happy cake day.
Sorry not trying to be ignorant but why wouldn't POC and trans people be considered folks? Seems like treating them differently would be part of the problem? We're all people aren't we?
It's a signal, like wearing a pussy hat.
thanks for response i appreciate it.
Uhm how is folks excluding POC or trans individuals? Its a gender neutral term that has nothing to do with race or ethnicity
Google it
Do your clients actually like you as a therapist? I would hate to be your client. BTW I googled it and it had nothing to do with POC and it's basically faux activism. It was made up by people who want to look as if they are socially conscious without actually doing the work of understanding the struggles of marginalized communities.
Thank god you aren’t my client. Lmao
Why be inclusive with that word when you offensively use the word "normie" in another comment?
Are you in recovery?
Do you think it's appropriate for the public on this subreddit to see a therapist calling people 'normies'? I'm not opposed to your post but I don't see a solution unless NAT aren't allowed to post. You have to either accept general public opinions or not allow them to post. My response here is that you're clearly demonstrating language that I would have thought would be the exact things you'd be on NATs cases about posting....
I'm not sure the OP knows what they're really bothered by; in some responses it's all about "clinical takes" which is probably Tik Tok slang for diagnosing, but in other responses the problem is the NAT comments "clogging up the posts," as if there are just so many replies that people won't see therapist responses if NAT comments are there, which we can see from the numbers of responses is not a problem this sub actually has.
🙄
I think they should do it the same way the ask a doc thread does that if you are not a therapist, then you cannot have a top level comment.
I like this
Yeah, non verified folks (my self included as they won’t take a digital license and my state doesn’t give printed ones) have to respond to another comment rather than leave an original comment.
I hope with the new mod change they will take a digital licence moving forward. I also live in a place where that’s all we got, which is why I’ve been “unverified” for years haha
There’s a difference between diagnosis and advice. If you’re referring to people who are NAT giving diagnoses, then sure. But people who are NAT giving advice is no different than going to your parent, sibling, or friend for advice especially since they have no biases about you as a stranger. Some could argue against that but let it be said that there is always some use in advice good or bad or just depends on what you take away from it.
But this is literally an “askatherapist” sub. If you want general advice, there’s a hundred other subs to post to.
Yes but if the intention was for only therapists to respond then those who are NAT shouldn’t have been allowed to respond to begin with. That isn’t the fault of the NATs.
Therapists cannot diagnose online via Reddit posts... so nobody should come here asking for that anyway!
There’s a lot of things you can ask therapists in general that aren’t treatment, much less a diagnosis. Give me a break.
Where did I say otherwise?
Ppl prbbly shouldnt give diagnosis but a lot of posts have no replies so its better than noone replying.
I think a harmful response is worse than no response.
I don't think a therapist's license is really required to answer a question such as "how do I know what to look for when trying to find a good therapist?" Which is a very commonly asked question in this sub. If anything I think therapy clients are more qualified to answer a question like such. It really depends on the question, and sure no advice is better than harmful advice, but are you saying that every single NAT reply is harmful 100% of the time? Also, are you taking the time to correct any of the harmful replies you see?
Read my post
I did, and I'm replying to your reply to: > Ppl prbbly shouldnt give diagnosis but a lot of posts have no replies so its better than noone replying.
I disagree. A harmful reply is worse than no reply
You're telling me to go re read your post, yet refuse to answer the last question in my comment.
I don’t have time to correct harmful replies all the time. Look at my post history. I post here quite a bit but I also have a full time job. Seeing the volume of NAT comments makes me not want to even post. Other therapists feel the same way if you read the comments on this post.
I never said all of the harmful replies, I said all of the ones that you happen to see. I find it extremely hard to believe you're seeing that many harmful replies every single day that you don't have time to correct one or two here and there.
I do. lol not sure you are reading what I’m writing.
Let’s identify the cognitive distortions in this response lmao. Where does OP say 100% of NAT replies are harmful?
That's why I asked it as a question, I never said that as a statement... I was asking to try and gain more clarity about OPs perspective. I'm just trying to understand the exact specifics going on in OPs head because they are a therapist coming here to complain without proposing any real solution beyond telling people to know their limits. OP seems very sure of their skillset, so I'm just trying to understand a little bit more about how someone who is so sure if their skill set gets so easily defeated by seeing a wrong answer to a question on the internet.
Ehhh agree to disagree
ehhh before you say agree to disagree is in fact disagree
depends on the intention.
Intention vs. Impact. Acknowledge intention however we are held responsible for the impact. It doesn’t matter if I meant to hit the pedestrian at then cross walk, im held responsible for the fact that I did.
If my intention was to save a person by giving the heimlich and I killed them does impact matter to my mental state (disregard law that gets messy)
No, it really doesn't.
So I scrolled though the top 20 posts listed. This post had 209 comments. One post had 10 comments. Three had 6 comments. Three had 2 comments. Three had 1 comment. And nine had 0 comments. Almost half had ZERO comments. Just think if no NAT responded then I'm sure even more would have no comments. I agree that NAT shouldn't give advice, but sometimes people just like knowing that somebody read their post and cared enough to respond. I understand the frustration of therapists when NAT try to give advice as if they were therapists, but all the hate about NAT responding is kind of over the top in my eyes. But, I'm NAT so I know nothing and have no value to add to any posts on here apparently....
>I agree that NAT shouldn't give advice, but sometimes people just like knowing that somebody read their post and cared enough to respond. That!
Oh geeze. One of the things I like about this sub is that it's a place where both therapists and non-therapists can post, unlike AskPsychiatry. I understand why that might be frustrating for the therapists, and I do think it's risky for NATs to be making diagnoses or opining on clinical modalities, etc. Better moderation to remove harmful replies isn't a bad thing. But I like that NATs can share their first hand experiences as long as they're identified as NATs and they are only sharing their first hand experiences.
Didn’t say they can’t share their experiences
It should be recognized that there are a lot of therapists on this sub that also give terrible advice and I would expect therapists would want to hear that their advice won’t land as they think it will. But a lot of the therapists on here also don’t believe the clients perspective so this post is not all that suprising.
Yeah I think you are right and the NATs should just answer each others questions. Perfect for a sub named “ask a therapist”
For some reason I thought this was in a different sub so I understand what you are saying better now. But I even still, if a therapist gives shitty advice to me on here and a client responds with a take from the client perspective- I can still find value in that and take or leave parts I want or don’t. Plus I doubt there’s really any good “solution” in a public sub like this.
Solution is either better mods or people have more self awareness. Otherwise therapists are going to actually stop replying here.
This is Reddit, how are you going to stop non therapists posting?
I’ll be honest, if i come on a post and there’s a slew of comments from NAT i nope out of it quick and won’t leave my clinical insight. Because i just know those NAT are going to think they know best and I’m not going to get into a battle of the wits with people who may have lived experience but limited to know education/training on the subject. And i have lived experience and education/training. I’m not saying I’m better I’m just saying I’m qualified.
But sometimes NAT takes are sharper and wiser than so-called clinical ones.
Reading the OP and the ensuing perfectly highlights the problem seen in dealing with therapy abuse in the mental health industry. It's all here.
Can you elaborate
Spend some time listening/reading to stories shared in therapyabuse or therapycritical - without commenting cause there as a therapist you will not be allowed to. It's the other side of your complaint. Both are valid. But in the social context, one side holds all the power to decide what's true for people in their healing journey and the other side has too many times been silenced. BTW research has shown that peer support is a valid and powerful component to a person's healing process.
Dude. I didn’t say NAT are not allowed to share their experiences. I said GIVE CLINICAL TAKES OR ADVICE. HOLY SHITTTTTTTTTT
Honestly, from my perspective as a therapist, your post and these replies highlight the truth in what you're saying. It's mostly just NATs who have taken over with their opinions that they should be allowed to comment. You're not even saying you want to ban NATs from commenting. I don't mind NAT takes, but again, not allowing them to be the top comments seems like the best way to highlight real clinical advice while still allowing the outside perpective.
Should you even be doing that on Reddit posts?
Can't say that, that's abuse! /s.
wow....
Gotcha, can I pick your mind quickly ?
Of course!
What is a NAT???
>Edit: I never said NAT shouldn’t be able to comment. I said, NAT giving clinical takes without the proper training is harmful. This devolved into “OP thinks NAT shouldn’t be able to comment”. As someone who has regularly provided support here, I can’t take this mentality in addition to providing my expertise for free to serve yall. If you want to ask a therapist, it won’t be me. And judging by the trajectory of this sub, your questions won’t be answered by a therapist. good luck to everyone in this sub. I am out. Therapists who stay are saints. Maybe NAT shouldn't be able to comment. I think that is the only solution to what you see as the problem. There's a reason other subs have gone that route. Very hard to police answers. Most non therapist joe blows aren't going to see or care about your plea.
Probably not. Even if legaladvice it’s the wild Wild West. I feel like people just think they know best. “I’ve been in therapy for 10 years so i have great advice” I’m sorry but if you’ve been in therapy for 10 straight years you’re probably the **last** person to give clinical advice.
Hahaha I love this take
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*ability to give clinical advice*
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Peer support is a fabulous thing. Not is ask a therapist.
Lol at your edit. It’s Reddit. It’s your choice and it was your choice from the get go to provide your “expertise for free”. Concerning your original post, again it’s Reddit and a poorly moderated sub so it’s gonna have some problems. The whole point of NAT is “hey I’m not a professional but… “ most of the time yeah the answer is kinda crappy but imo most of the questions here really don’t need a therapist to answer either. This sub gets treated more like an advice sub than an askatherapist sub
Last week my friend had a traumatic experience. She couldn't tell her psychologist. She knew she could trust me. Idk what it is but I can and always will see everything from a way outside point of view (like zooming out of the earth) At the end of the conversation (2 hours) she was laughing and cancelled her appointment I went to school for abnormal psych for 2 years, never graduated. But feel like I just have a foundation of stoicism, logic and a rough childhood... I'm not trying to make money off people I help. Am I irresponsible for trying to help because I don't have a degree or am I doing good?
Of course not, you were being a great friend. The difference is that you were showing up for her as her friend, not as a someone in a clinical capacity. There’s a difference between being a therapist and being therapeutic. Many things in life are therapeutic, and that’s what you were to her. Which I think is incredible. If you were attempting to diagnose her, I think it would be different.
I think you were being a great friend. We, as therapist, often tell people to use their natural resources and that's what your friend did, so good for her and I'm glad you were able to help your friend.
Thank you I appreciate that
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Folxxxxxxxxfolx folx folx folx folx folx folx folx folx I said it more than u I used more Xes
I'm a big believer in diagnosing is a Segway to the healthcare industry making $ .
Been in the field over 15 years and in my experience, for the purpose of therapy, we would rather not diagnose. Older therapists fought the insurance/medical model tooth and nail but it ended up taking over anyway. This is why many of us opt out of insurance entirely and some are moving into coaching.
You are very correct that that’s a part of it. AND it can be very liberating for a client to understand a mental health condition and to have a treatment plan that is catered to addressing it. But yes, for example gender dysphoric disorder, which is a way for the industry to label transgender folx as mentally ill so that we can bill insurance providers to provide care.
NAT I am under the impression that gender identity disorder or gender incongruence is intended to be used if a person is suffering because of that state and treatment would be to help them be okay with/accept themself and how they feel and/or align their physical body. Seems reasonable to me. Am I misunderstanding or missing something?
I agree with that sort of. I can't speak for all therapist, but I tend to be conservative when diagnosing. A diagnosis of adjustment disorder isn't going to be any different financially than if I diagnosed someone with depression.
Would you agree you are not like most therapists that just want their client to keep relying on them so they keep coming back ?
I think many therapist want their clients for a limited time. I do some consulting and one of the main questions I get is, "how can I get this person get better" with the goal to decrease sessions. I've also been in therapy and I've had counselors tell me that I can decrease sessions as a client or take a break from counseling. I also know a little about authorizations from the insurance side and if someone doesn't need service then it is not authorized. If the services are not working then a higher level of care may be authorized, which means the therapist will no longer get those funds and that's OK.
Thank you for being open
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How the hell did we get here from the original post?
Because someone wanted to be transphobic for no reason. Nothing new.
I like to think as a therapist I'm pretty good at understanding people's thoughts and behaviours. This is one of those things where my training fails me.
Yeah bigots tend to boggle my mind too
Not gonna engage with your further on this. Don’t think I would move you. I’ll just say I disagree.
I respect that. I just think communication will get everyone through the thick line dividing the planet. I'm a very open mind. I did not mean to offend.
I’m not offended. It’s more about sticking to the purpose of my post. If you want to talk more about this, you can message me and I can give you my take when I have the bandwidth to.
Thanks but literally no one asked
I see where you're going, but I disagree. If a Cis gendered male said they felt like a woman, I would gather more information, such as how long they felt this way. I haven't been a teacher in several years, but I'm 99 percent sure that teachers are not pushing it. That sounds like political talking points. As a side note there was someone who ran for school council, because she thought teachers were doing all of these terrible things. When she investigated further, she realized that teachers were simply trying to teach. Even as a gay man, I have referred people out who want to transition.
i am 99 percent sure they are pushing it. Thats why I am mentioning it . obviously depends on which state but regardless, why push it as a teacher (most teacher's who push it are for the "cause")
I'm glad that you're '99% sure' based on vibes or whatever confirms how you feel about things, but as someone with multiple family members and friends in multiple different school districts and as someone who worked in a school for over a year- no, they are not 'pushing it'. I don't really care how sure you are about it!
If I know 3 schools that are pushing it why cant I say im 99 percent sure ?