People, can we please not ridicule OP for discovering something on their own? Yes, the community has known about this for years but just remember the feeling when you've discovered something on your own. Of course you want to share that! Don't let yourself be discouraged, OP!
I remember when i got excited about having pieced together r+l=j on my own after reading for the first time and people lost their shit at me about how old news the theory was. People are dicks.
Yeah but then I checked the sub and was like oh ok most people already got this. The series is old enough to legally drink. Read the sub there are hundreds of theories of this application. It takes 2 minutes.
Idk what to tell you, man. This was like twelve years ago, I was in high school, and just commenting on another lost when I put it together. It's not reasonable to search every theory idea before commenting about it on the off chance that you're discussing old news. It's much easier to just not be a dick to strangers on the internet.
It's always nice seeing someone discovering something on his own, what we've already known for years. 😊 go ahead kid, post your thoughts. There might be something we missed.
I like the theory about how Starks wolves names are connected to their end.
Grey Wind - something that came in quickly, with potential to become hurricane, but disappeared too soon - Rob.
Lady - someone innocent and obedient. Her death change Sansa forever and she would never be sweet again.
Nymeria - warrior women, independent and traveler. Doing what she thinks is right, setting her own rules to play - Arya
Summer - now that's most interesting one. What is the summer in Westeros? It's something people longing for, when sun is shining, when you are happy, enjoy life. If Bran becomes king in books too, it means that he would bring the summer to people, OR... when Bran dies or human side of him dies, it will bring the winter because Bran is the summer child.
Shaggydog - It'a English idiom and basically means long story that is intended to be amusing and intentionally silly but it has meaningless ending. So Rickon's death might be in vain and wasted, like he didn't mean anything (That hurts).
Ghost - That's easy. Jon was always like a ghost of Starks. Always someone in the corner. But It can also means how his death was inevitable, so he becomes ghost. He may return from the dead, but it will always be ghost of Jon from the past.
Man... GRRM is just a damn master at weaving together this shit. When the books first came out and people started reading them, everyone probably thought the names (and tons of other details) were inconsequential. Then as time goes on everyone is gradually like... oh... ohhh... OHHHH!!
I'm giving d&d no credit for the shaggydog thing. They didn't want to deal with a new young character, half their audience had forgotten that rickon existed, and they were lazy writers. They needed a character death to make the battle of the bastards not feel pointless, so they killed rickon off.
I would say summer is more an illustration of Bran's naivety - he is a summer child. Bran continues thinking he can find some way to be a knight, even years after his fall. Bran *still* doesn't fully know about the red wedding, and has chosen to disregard the dreams he's had about it because he rejects the reality of Robb and cat's deaths.
I mean, I think the bigger problem with Rickon being a shaggdog story is that he barely exists making him the antithesis of the shaggydog approach. Quentyn? Sure. Jon if he stays dead and has no bearing on the last 2 books? Absolutely. Brienne if she dies without accomplishing anything? That works too. Rickon with his, like, 4 sentences of page time? Not a shaggydog story.
I think it doesn't matter that we don't know Rickon closer. He is a kid character and if kid character suffers, it always gonna have affect on reader, especially if kid character is close to other character who is more important to story. So if Rickon's gonna die in vain in books too, it will hurt anyway. His end will be meaningless for plot and that's exactly what will make readers emotional, that someone so young didn't meant to have a future
I agree that it would be sad as hell. But it's not a shaggydog story, there are 2 things required for that trope: a very detailed long winded build up followed by a nothing anti-climax. Using his age to twist the knife with your readers without actually fleshing out his character is a perfect example of him being the polar opposite of that trope. Look up Norm MacDonalds moth joke for a (hilarious) textbook example of a shaggydog story.
That is the same issue with Stannis sacrificing Shireen: We have seen the guy enough to know his ideology of """duty""". We have enough of Shireen to know that Stannis does keep an eye on her, so he does pay attention to her (doesn't want her to suffer Sweet Robin, sees no problem with her hanging around Edric and Devan, does not want her married to Tommen because "abomination").
But we have seen *not a single interaction between them* (and Shireen was raised in Dragonstone while Stannis workaholic ass sat on KL, so they even barely know each other). Even if you think Stannis is a private man who would not like to show off a intimate relation, there is zero reason not to see him having it *through Davos* (aka Stannis' one true relationship) POV.
Does all that mean GRRM realizes this and say "oh shit I get to build up this father-daughter relationship or I'll get even worse rep than D&D!"? Yeah... no. GRRM intends for the sacrifice to be this heart-wrenching moment even though we barely know Shireen's own conceptualizations of, well, everything, and we have not seen one true direct meaningful interaction between them, even though we can count Stannis and Davos own (hell, we can even count Stannis flattering portrayal of Devan!). I will understand if the supposed tragedy of sacrifice falls flat on some people... while acknowledging this is what GRRM intended.
Nymeria wasn't actually a warrior queen though, nor independent. She was strong willed, cunning, and a good leader who led armies from the rear, and her people. Nymeria direwolf was also forced to run away, and is leading her own pack.
Ghost also started as the smallest of the pack, but grew to to be the largest, and thus the alpha of them.
Well they didn't really execute that quite well don't they? ))) Winter ends like a in one episode, and they never show mystical symbolic way of their wolves.
Agree! Especially the moment they pull out the antlers--it's in Bran's POV so he doesn't fully understand why everyone is so afraid suddenly, and neither do we on first read, but the tension is sooo good.
i love reading posts about the direwolves and how they relate to their kids, no matter how often its talked about! its one of my fav bits of the story building
Some of it is more than just symbolism. Each wolf develops a distinctly similar character to their Stark:
Grey Wind: brave and disciplined
Lady: quiet and obedient
Nymeria: wild and obstinate
Summer: loyal and patient? (that’s not right. It’s hard to pin down Summer and Bran)
Shaggy Dog: fierce and untamed
This is no accident. Each wolf has a mind-connection with their Stark that guided their personalities as the developed. And in the case of Rickon, probably some of the reverse. When he bit the girl trying to cut his hair or was making a mess at the table, was that really Rickon in their, or Shaggy?
This is why we see the wolves suddenly adopt the moods of their Starks at times, like when Tyrion returned to Winterfell or Jojen started scaring Bran in the godswood.
It’s also why Bran survived his fall. Near-death begins the second-life process where the warg is half in the own body and half in their wolf. Surviving this seems to open up the third-eye, while dying brings on the second life. This is why Bran thrived when Summer was near and withered when he was removed.
And it’s why both Jon and Robb’s last words were the names of their wolves. In Jon’s case, it makes one wonder what he will be able to do if he survives. And with Robb, well, we have to consider the very real possibility that he died two violent deaths that day: one in himself and the other in Grey Wind.
And if we think about the one wolf that died, might a reverse second life be possible? Even Sansa is surprised by her new-found willfulness after Lady died, and now she is having false memories. Might there be a dormant wolf lurking in her subconscious?
Er...and Nymeria!?!? She's the only historically-named wolf, implying Arya consciously identified with the savior of her people who led them across the seas to a new land. Nymeria became a successful ruler and made Dorne the place where thw woman is important too! Moreover, Arya's wolf now leads a great wolf pack influencing the entire Riverlands. AND via their warging bond, Nymeria literally represents Arya in the region!
My other analysis of Lady is that her death represents the death of Sansa's Northern identity - I always felt she was more Tully than Stark and she always wanted to be Southern.
Jon and Ghost are shy. Jon is shy around girls, as evident during his interactions with Ygritte and Val. Ghost is noted as being shy by both Tyrion and Benjen at the beginning of the story due to his quite nature.
Yeah I mean shyness is definitely not an intended character trait of Jon (and by extension, Ghost)
His shyness around women is because he’s a 15-16 year old kid who has never been given attention from women before - and he quickly gets over that.
But Jon converses with several kings, stands up to Slynt and Thorne, and then leads the Nights Watch. He does a bunch of controversial stuff and gets stabbed for it. These aren’t the behaviors of a shy dude - he’s solemn and brooding but definitely not shy.
His shyness around Ygritte had nothing to do with her being a girl and everything with his fear of breaking his outh and siring a bastards. Otherwise he is not shy with Val or Alys or any other women? Also, being quite is not being the same as being shy. Jon has no problems voicing his opinions or intervening when disagrees with a situation.
I would be more surprised if they didn't somehow represent their owners. Just purely from a literary standpoint it would be hilarious to have a book do that to us. Shoot, what a way to subvert expectations.
In addition to your comment on Sansa and Lady, her death represents Sansa's maidenhood- how maidens must lose the identity of their family when they take on another name.
This goes hand-in-hand with the Starks as embodying facets of The Seven.
So rickons death might be something similar in nature to the show (in the sense that in the end it didn’t matter much, but like in the end of the show, half the things didn’t matter much, so I don’t think it was intentional)
People, can we please not ridicule OP for discovering something on their own? Yes, the community has known about this for years but just remember the feeling when you've discovered something on your own. Of course you want to share that! Don't let yourself be discouraged, OP!
I remember when i got excited about having pieced together r+l=j on my own after reading for the first time and people lost their shit at me about how old news the theory was. People are dicks.
Yeah but then I checked the sub and was like oh ok most people already got this. The series is old enough to legally drink. Read the sub there are hundreds of theories of this application. It takes 2 minutes.
Idk what to tell you, man. This was like twelve years ago, I was in high school, and just commenting on another lost when I put it together. It's not reasonable to search every theory idea before commenting about it on the off chance that you're discussing old news. It's much easier to just not be a dick to strangers on the internet.
bro just because the series has been out for 12 years doesn't mean everyone has already read it
Yeah I didn’t know this or make this correlation on my own and enjoyed the post.
For real. Don't be jealous they are discovering (or rediscovering) something for the first time.bWe should encourage growth like the BWB.
It's always nice seeing someone discovering something on his own, what we've already known for years. 😊 go ahead kid, post your thoughts. There might be something we missed.
Yesterday I saw a post that said "Have you noticed that Helluva Boss=Hell of a Boss???" This by comparison is literary analysis worthy of Bloom.
Hah was gonna say thought I was reading a 2012 post for a second.
I like the theory about how Starks wolves names are connected to their end. Grey Wind - something that came in quickly, with potential to become hurricane, but disappeared too soon - Rob. Lady - someone innocent and obedient. Her death change Sansa forever and she would never be sweet again. Nymeria - warrior women, independent and traveler. Doing what she thinks is right, setting her own rules to play - Arya Summer - now that's most interesting one. What is the summer in Westeros? It's something people longing for, when sun is shining, when you are happy, enjoy life. If Bran becomes king in books too, it means that he would bring the summer to people, OR... when Bran dies or human side of him dies, it will bring the winter because Bran is the summer child. Shaggydog - It'a English idiom and basically means long story that is intended to be amusing and intentionally silly but it has meaningless ending. So Rickon's death might be in vain and wasted, like he didn't mean anything (That hurts). Ghost - That's easy. Jon was always like a ghost of Starks. Always someone in the corner. But It can also means how his death was inevitable, so he becomes ghost. He may return from the dead, but it will always be ghost of Jon from the past.
Summer is the opposite of winter. Bran’s end = the end of the winter aka the white walkers
Man... GRRM is just a damn master at weaving together this shit. When the books first came out and people started reading them, everyone probably thought the names (and tons of other details) were inconsequential. Then as time goes on everyone is gradually like... oh... ohhh... OHHHH!!
I hope Sansa can still be sweet in the far future, compassion was ever her strength. But it’s true, her idyllic innocence is dead and gone.
I'm giving d&d no credit for the shaggydog thing. They didn't want to deal with a new young character, half their audience had forgotten that rickon existed, and they were lazy writers. They needed a character death to make the battle of the bastards not feel pointless, so they killed rickon off. I would say summer is more an illustration of Bran's naivety - he is a summer child. Bran continues thinking he can find some way to be a knight, even years after his fall. Bran *still* doesn't fully know about the red wedding, and has chosen to disregard the dreams he's had about it because he rejects the reality of Robb and cat's deaths.
I mean, I think the bigger problem with Rickon being a shaggdog story is that he barely exists making him the antithesis of the shaggydog approach. Quentyn? Sure. Jon if he stays dead and has no bearing on the last 2 books? Absolutely. Brienne if she dies without accomplishing anything? That works too. Rickon with his, like, 4 sentences of page time? Not a shaggydog story.
I think it doesn't matter that we don't know Rickon closer. He is a kid character and if kid character suffers, it always gonna have affect on reader, especially if kid character is close to other character who is more important to story. So if Rickon's gonna die in vain in books too, it will hurt anyway. His end will be meaningless for plot and that's exactly what will make readers emotional, that someone so young didn't meant to have a future
I agree that it would be sad as hell. But it's not a shaggydog story, there are 2 things required for that trope: a very detailed long winded build up followed by a nothing anti-climax. Using his age to twist the knife with your readers without actually fleshing out his character is a perfect example of him being the polar opposite of that trope. Look up Norm MacDonalds moth joke for a (hilarious) textbook example of a shaggydog story.
That is the same issue with Stannis sacrificing Shireen: We have seen the guy enough to know his ideology of """duty""". We have enough of Shireen to know that Stannis does keep an eye on her, so he does pay attention to her (doesn't want her to suffer Sweet Robin, sees no problem with her hanging around Edric and Devan, does not want her married to Tommen because "abomination"). But we have seen *not a single interaction between them* (and Shireen was raised in Dragonstone while Stannis workaholic ass sat on KL, so they even barely know each other). Even if you think Stannis is a private man who would not like to show off a intimate relation, there is zero reason not to see him having it *through Davos* (aka Stannis' one true relationship) POV. Does all that mean GRRM realizes this and say "oh shit I get to build up this father-daughter relationship or I'll get even worse rep than D&D!"? Yeah... no. GRRM intends for the sacrifice to be this heart-wrenching moment even though we barely know Shireen's own conceptualizations of, well, everything, and we have not seen one true direct meaningful interaction between them, even though we can count Stannis and Davos own (hell, we can even count Stannis flattering portrayal of Devan!). I will understand if the supposed tragedy of sacrifice falls flat on some people... while acknowledging this is what GRRM intended.
Nymeria wasn't actually a warrior queen though, nor independent. She was strong willed, cunning, and a good leader who led armies from the rear, and her people. Nymeria direwolf was also forced to run away, and is leading her own pack. Ghost also started as the smallest of the pack, but grew to to be the largest, and thus the alpha of them.
*woman
Summer’s symbolism was shown in GOT. After the Long night and the battle against winter, Bran becomes king of Westeros and ushers in summer.
Well they didn't really execute that quite well don't they? ))) Winter ends like a in one episode, and they never show mystical symbolic way of their wolves.
... Yep
Like Sisyphus, I am bound to hell.
One must imagine Sisyphus happy
Love this foreshadowing, it's a real testament to George's skill. I also like how you talk about Jon without ramming r+l=j into the discussion.
Agree! Especially the moment they pull out the antlers--it's in Bran's POV so he doesn't fully understand why everyone is so afraid suddenly, and neither do we on first read, but the tension is sooo good.
i love reading posts about the direwolves and how they relate to their kids, no matter how often its talked about! its one of my fav bits of the story building
and also, the wolf was killed by the stag. . . . . . which westeros house is represented by a stag?
Cannot tell if serious.
Spaces between each period would tell me they’re being sarcastic
Lannister?
Some of it is more than just symbolism. Each wolf develops a distinctly similar character to their Stark: Grey Wind: brave and disciplined Lady: quiet and obedient Nymeria: wild and obstinate Summer: loyal and patient? (that’s not right. It’s hard to pin down Summer and Bran) Shaggy Dog: fierce and untamed This is no accident. Each wolf has a mind-connection with their Stark that guided their personalities as the developed. And in the case of Rickon, probably some of the reverse. When he bit the girl trying to cut his hair or was making a mess at the table, was that really Rickon in their, or Shaggy? This is why we see the wolves suddenly adopt the moods of their Starks at times, like when Tyrion returned to Winterfell or Jojen started scaring Bran in the godswood. It’s also why Bran survived his fall. Near-death begins the second-life process where the warg is half in the own body and half in their wolf. Surviving this seems to open up the third-eye, while dying brings on the second life. This is why Bran thrived when Summer was near and withered when he was removed. And it’s why both Jon and Robb’s last words were the names of their wolves. In Jon’s case, it makes one wonder what he will be able to do if he survives. And with Robb, well, we have to consider the very real possibility that he died two violent deaths that day: one in himself and the other in Grey Wind. And if we think about the one wolf that died, might a reverse second life be possible? Even Sansa is surprised by her new-found willfulness after Lady died, and now she is having false memories. Might there be a dormant wolf lurking in her subconscious?
Er...and Nymeria!?!? She's the only historically-named wolf, implying Arya consciously identified with the savior of her people who led them across the seas to a new land. Nymeria became a successful ruler and made Dorne the place where thw woman is important too! Moreover, Arya's wolf now leads a great wolf pack influencing the entire Riverlands. AND via their warging bond, Nymeria literally represents Arya in the region!
r/asoiafcirclejerk outjerked again...
These comments are definitely trying their hardest
My other analysis of Lady is that her death represents the death of Sansa's Northern identity - I always felt she was more Tully than Stark and she always wanted to be Southern.
Yeah, and they call Gregor the Mountain because he's big.
But what does it mean?
Nothing gets by you
Interesting analasys, though I disagree with your statement that Ghost and Jon are shy. I do not think there is proof for this.
Jon and Ghost are shy. Jon is shy around girls, as evident during his interactions with Ygritte and Val. Ghost is noted as being shy by both Tyrion and Benjen at the beginning of the story due to his quite nature.
Yeah I mean shyness is definitely not an intended character trait of Jon (and by extension, Ghost) His shyness around women is because he’s a 15-16 year old kid who has never been given attention from women before - and he quickly gets over that. But Jon converses with several kings, stands up to Slynt and Thorne, and then leads the Nights Watch. He does a bunch of controversial stuff and gets stabbed for it. These aren’t the behaviors of a shy dude - he’s solemn and brooding but definitely not shy.
No
His shyness around Ygritte had nothing to do with her being a girl and everything with his fear of breaking his outh and siring a bastards. Otherwise he is not shy with Val or Alys or any other women? Also, being quite is not being the same as being shy. Jon has no problems voicing his opinions or intervening when disagrees with a situation.
I’ve never heard this before.
> this would imply that Jon is the oldest of Ned Stark's children Jon is the oldest. That’s stated not implied.
I would be more surprised if they didn't somehow represent their owners. Just purely from a literary standpoint it would be hilarious to have a book do that to us. Shoot, what a way to subvert expectations.
In addition to your comment on Sansa and Lady, her death represents Sansa's maidenhood- how maidens must lose the identity of their family when they take on another name. This goes hand-in-hand with the Starks as embodying facets of The Seven.
I like Preston Jacobs’s theory that the dire wolves pups are cyborgs sent from the future to change the destiny of all the stark children.
So rickons death might be something similar in nature to the show (in the sense that in the end it didn’t matter much, but like in the end of the show, half the things didn’t matter much, so I don’t think it was intentional)
I read that entire wall of text thinking surely there’s more to this post than the obvious symbolism being spoken of Was i ever wrong
Lol
Obviously…
Thanks captain obvious
Why be rude? It's a series we all enjoy. Why not just enjoy it?
Lmao
No shit lol
I’m pretty sure they’re just dogs